AH Challenge: President Joshua L Chamberlain

[Jason Sleeman]

With a P.O.D from 1865 on create a timeline in which Joshua L Chamberlain becomes U.S President.

What might his presidency be like?

How might things be changed by a Chamberlain Presidency?

Have Fun :D

Jason Sleeman

[Derek Jackson]

Who was Joshua L Chamberlain?

[JLCook]

Who was Joshua L Chamberlain?

LtCOL Joshua Lawrence Chaimberlain commanded the 20th MAINE regiment, at Little Round Top, during the battle of Gettysburg! More specificlly, he ordered and led a bayonet charge, downhill, against attacking Confederates, sweeping them before him, AFTER his troops ran out of ammunition!

For this, he was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. He was later wounded and also promoted to at least Major general.

After the war ended, he went home to Maine, was elected Governor repeatedly, and finally served as President of his Alma Mater, Bowdoin College.

He was perhaps the greatest Maine war hero ever, and he died of his wounds in ~1919!

The Ted Turner movie, GETTYSBURG, and Michael Shaara's book, "THE KILLER ANGELS", both featured him!

[Steffen]

i´m curious. besides being maine´s greatest war hero- and the question if it´s roughly the same as the greatest seeman of switzerland,
was he an able governeur?

[Archangel Michael]

For this, he was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. He was later wounded and also promoted to at least Major general.

He was awarded the Medal of Honor in 1893. Wonder why they waited so long?

He was perhaps the greatest Maine war hero ever, and he died of his wounds in ~1919!

1914 to be exact. :D

[Mike Stearns]

I'm only familiar with him from Gods and Generals, both the movie and the book but I get the impression from those sources that he'd have been a great president.

[David S Poepoe]

I'm only familiar with him from Gods and Generals, both the movie and the book but I get the impression from those sources that he'd have been a great president.

Getting anything from Hollywood should be viewed with suspicion. Shaaras' (both father and son) books are probably better. The best would be to look at his life. I know Chamberlain did write a few books and there must be an autobiography or biography of him available. However, one has to look beyond the war mystique. Grant was great at war, but sort of stumbled as president.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Who was Joshua L Chamberlain?

read "Conceived in Liberty" by Mark Perry :D and you will know a lot about him -and about William Oates- ;). It is worth reading it.

[Wendell]

Getting to the point of this timeline, he could run in 1884 instead of the senator (Blaine) from Maine running, and maybe go on to beat Cleveland?

[Derek Jackson]

I had heard that Democrats alleged, and were believed, that Blaine was more or less corrupt. I guess another candidate might have defeated Cleveland. Maybe that changes things because it might seem that Democrats can NOT win the Presidencey.

[Wendell]

I had heard that Democrats alleged, and were believed, that Blaine was more or less corrupt. I guess another candidate might have defeated Cleveland. Maybe that changes things because it might seem that Democrats can NOT win the Presidencey.
"Blaine! Blaine! James G. Blaine! Contemptible senator from the State of Maine!"


Here's an idea: Make Chamberlain Garfield's VP. Guiteau kills Garfield, and voila.

[Archangel Michael]

"Blaine! Blaine! James G. Blaine! Contemptible senator from the State of Maine!"


Here's an idea: Make Chamberlain Garfield's VP. Guiteau kills Garfield, and voila.

Wasn't Blaine the only other Republican president, and lead the Union in another war against the Confederacy?



:p

[Wendell]

Wasn't Blaine the only other Republican president, and lead the Union in another war against the Confederacy?



:p
:confused: Yeah, I think so? :eek:

[Jason Sleeman]

I Had Chamberlain pegged to run in 1896 with Mckinley as his veep and winning again in 1900 with T.R as his veep. Mckinley resigning due to ill health at the end of the first term.

Chamberlain would likely be a progressive, liberal minded Republican President.
And he was a strong advocate of African American civil rights.

[Wendell]

I Had Chamberlain pegged to run in 1896 with Mckinley as his veep and winning again in 1900 with T.R as his veep. Mckinley resigning due to ill health at the end of the first term.

Chamberlain would likely be a progressive, liberal minded Republican President.
And he was a strong advocate of African American civil rights.
Chamberlain was rather ill by the end of the 1880's. Have him run in 1880, or 1876. I agree that he would be a Republican. Remember, he had been governor of Maine for several terms of office.

[Jason Sleeman]

"Chamberlain was rather ill by the end of the 1880's" I was unaware he had had any serious bout of illness until shortly before his death. Was this a result of his many battle injuries? did he recover his health at any point later, enough perhaps to assume public office?

Jason Sleeman

[Wendell]

"Chamberlain was rather ill by the end of the 1880's" I was unaware he had had any serious bout of illness until shortly before his death. Was this a result of his many battle injuries? did he recover his health at any point later, enough perhaps to assume public office?

Jason Sleeman
My understanding is that he continued to deteriorate until his death.

[Melvin Loh]

Excellent idea. I reckon the sorta leader Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain was during the ACW would've been caiired over well into civilian politics had he decided to go all the way to run for pres- remember, prewar, he'd also been prof of rhetoric at Bowdoin College, so he was a very learned and capable intellectual in addition to becoming the great tactician and leader at Little Round Top and into the Virginia campaigns of 1864-65. I agree with Jason on his perspectives in politics as a liberal, which were alluded to in GETTYSBURG during his speech to the 2nd Maine contingent re how the entire land should be unified with freedom for all, regardless of colour, and his positive references in his conversations with Sgt Kilrain re the few freedmen he knew back in Portland.

BTW, Jeff Daniels (the same guy from DUMB & DUMBER) played Chamberlain in both GETTYSBURG and GODS & GENERALS- wonder how the last instlament of the series, THE LAST FULL MEASURE, will come out ?

[Romulus Augustulus]

How's the 1876 election, as a Republican? He plays on his war hero status to win handily over Samuel Tilden, among other things. Well, he wins narrowly, but he isn't hanging by a chad. I'd say he continues the program of civil rights and Reconstruction. It could also have ripple effects in Europe, since the years from 1877-1880 were very important in shaping future events in Europe. For starters, you have the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War, the 1879 Austro-German alliance...

[Derek Jackson]

How's the 1876 election, as a Republican? He plays on his war hero status to win handily over Samuel Tilden, among other things. Well, he wins narrowly, but he isn't hanging by a chad. I'd say he continues the program of civil rights and Reconstruction. It could also have ripple effects in Europe, since the years from 1877-1880 were very important in shaping future events in Europe. For starters, you have the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War, the 1879 Austro-German alliance...

It strikes me as more credible that Civil Rights could have been advanced im 1876 than by 1880 or 1884. Presumably Chamberlain would also have been in better health.

[Wendell]

How's the 1876 election, as a Republican? He plays on his war hero status to win handily over Samuel Tilden, among other things. Well, he wins narrowly, but he isn't hanging by a chad. I'd say he continues the program of civil rights and Reconstruction. It could also have ripple effects in Europe, since the years from 1877-1880 were very important in shaping future events in Europe. For starters, you have the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War, the 1879 Austro-German alliance...
Would Hayes, another civil war veteran, and the 19th President in OTL, have been Vice President under Chamberlain?

[Jason Sleeman]

"BTW, Jeff Daniels (the same guy from DUMB & DUMBER) played Chamberlain in both GETTYSBURG and GODS & GENERALS- wonder how the last instlament of the series, THE LAST FULL MEASURE, will come out ?"



I hope it turns out better than Gods and Generals did. As an avid fan of the Shaara books I was somewhat disappointed by the movie.


Jason Sleeman

[DMA]

"BTW, Jeff Daniels (the same guy from DUMB & DUMBER) played Chamberlain in both GETTYSBURG and GODS & GENERALS- wonder how the last instlament of the series, THE LAST FULL MEASURE, will come out ?"



I hope it turns out better than Gods and Generals did. As an avid fan of the Shaara books I was somewhat disappointed by the movie.


Jason Sleeman


Same here. I thought Gods & Generals was a real let down.

I wonder who Steven Lang will play this time? ;)

As for Chamberlain as President. He would have made for a great US President especially in place of Grant (1869-77). Reconstruction would have been done properly, the corruption of Grant's Administration would have been missed, & you could forget about anything like the Jim Crow laws getting anywhere near the Statute Books.

[Jason Sleeman]

I wonder who Steven Lang will play this time?

Perhaps Grant? ;)

[Wendell]

Same here. I thought Gods & Generals was a real let down.

I wonder who Steven Lang will play this time? ;)

As for Chamberlain as President. He would have made for a great US President especially in place of Grant (1869-77). Reconstruction would have been done properly, the corruption of Grant's Administration would have been missed, & you could forget about anything like the Jim Crow laws getting anywhere near the Statute Books.
That might have been too soon for a Chamberlain presidency though.

[DMA]

I wonder who Steven Lang will play this time?

Perhaps Grant? ;)


Yeah, that'd be right... :D

[DMA]

That might have been too soon for a Chamberlain presidency though.


Well yes & no. Clearly it wasn't too early for Grant, but if Chamberlain's life goes as per the OTL up until 1868, well there's no reason why he couldn't, as his war reputation would clear work in his favour plus he'd be governor of Maine in 1868. And it's not the first time that a serving governor has become a presidential candidate.

[Wendell]

Well yes & no. Clearly it wasn't too early for Grant, but if Chamberlain's life goes as per the OTL up until 1868, well there's no reason why he couldn't, as his war reputation would clear work in his favour plus he'd be governor of Maine in 1868. And it's not the first time that a serving governor has become a presidential candidate.
Grant was better known nationwide than was Chamberlain.

[DMA]

Grant was better known nationwide than was Chamberlain.


True, but that could also work against Grant. Afterall, none of the anti-war north or most of the South is going to vote for him. And this is besides the fact that Chamberlain wasn't an unknown. Afterall Chamberlain was known for Little Round Top, not to mention him more or less dying, getting a promotion for his wounds, then bouncing back to health. Then there's his action at Appomattox which would have earned him huge points from the Southern voters.

[Wendell]

True, but that could also work against Grant. Afterall, none of the anti-war north or most of the South is going to vote for him. And this is besides the fact that Chamberlain wasn't an unknown. Afterall Chamberlain was known for Little Round Top, not to mention him more or less dying, getting a promotion for his wounds, then bouncing back to health. Then there's his action at Appomattox which would have earned him huge points from the Southern voters.
I think that Grant scored huge points at Appomattox courthouse in the South the moment it was realised that the Rebs wouldn't be hung.

[DMA]

I think that Grant scored huge points at Appomattox courthouse in the South the moment it was realised that the Rebs wouldn't be hung.


Yeah, but what Chamberlain did was even more significant - at least for the Southern soldiers. Grant was just a name, but Chamberlain was a face who they could see, & a man who showed them great respect &, in doing so, earned theirs as well.

[Wendell]

Yeah, but what Chamberlain did was even more significant - at least for the Southern soldiers. Grant was just a name, but Chamberlain was a face who they could see, & a man who showed them great respect &, in doing so, earned theirs as well.
True. How about a Grant-Chamberlain ticket?

[DMA]

True. How about a Grant-Chamberlain ticket?


Now that'd be interesting & very possible IMHO. Maybe have that for the 1868 elections.

Then Chamberlain takes over 8 years later (or even 4 years later if Grant gets into serious trouble with all that corruption business)

[Wendell]

Now that'd be interesting & very possible IMHO. Maybe have that for the 1868 elections.

Then Chamberlain takes over 8 years later (or even 4 years later if Grant gets into serious trouble with all that corruption business)
Maybe Chamberlain encourages Grant to step aside after the first term?

[DMA]

Maybe Chamberlain encourages Grant to step aside after the first term?


That could work so that Chamberlain's health won't become a major factor until near the end of his second term as President around 1880 or there abouts.

Importantly, the corruption of Grant's Administration is small in comparison to OTL thus Grant's reputation is better. Also Reconstruction works much better, plus the Jim Crow laws last about as long as it takes for US troops to reoccupy parts of the South. ;)

[Wendell]

That could work so that Chamberlain's health won't become a major factor until near the end of his second term as President around 1880 or there abouts.

Importantly, the corruption of Grant's Administration is small in comparison to OTL thus Grant's reputation is better. Also Reconstruction works much better, plus the Jim Crow laws last about as long as it takes for US troops to reoccupy parts of the South. ;)
Well, Grant's reputation as ex-president could remain tattered, but what if his successor, Chamberlain in this scenario, made Grant ambassador to the U.K.?

[Jason Sleeman]

General Adelbert Ames was Chamberlain's former commander from the 20th Maine. In OTL Ames was Military governor of Louisianna where his liberal civil rights stance got him into local trouble, an the administration had to remove him. Were Chamberlain in the White House would he have done the same? or due to his similar views back Ames at the risk of angering the southerners?

[DMA]

Well, Grant's reputation as ex-president could remain tattered, but what if his successor, Chamberlain in this scenario, made Grant ambassador to the U.K.?


Oh sure, Grant's reputation wouldn't be the best, but it'd be better than the OTL. I guess 4 years in London is an option. Maybe even Paris.

[Wendell]

General Adelbert Ames was Chamberlain's former commander from the 20th Maine. In OTL Ames was Military governor of Louisianna where his liberal civil rights stance got him into local trouble, an the administration had to remove him. Were Chamberlain in the White House would he have done the same? or due to his similar views back Ames at the risk of angering the southerners?
That is a great question. I think that timelines involving Presidents that weren't are fascinating due to their potential.

[DMA]

General Adelbert Ames was Chamberlain's former commander from the 20th Maine. In OTL Ames was Military governor of Louisianna where his liberal civil rights stance got him into local trouble, an the administration had to remove him. Were Chamberlain in the White House would he have done the same? or due to his similar views back Ames at the risk of angering the southerners?


I'd say Chamberlain would leave Ames as governor. In fact he'd be likely to reinforce Ames with the army if need be. Chamberlain's idealism of equality for the blacks would outweigh the political fallout. Afterall the South did lose the War & thus the issue of rights for the blacks & freedom of the slaves.

Whether Chamberlain suffers at the ballot box next time is possible, but we'd be talking probably the 1876 election. In fact the Northern states may completely endorse Chamberlain's tough stance on the issue considering it won the Civil War over such issues a mere 10 year previously.

Also don't forget the blacks will vote in the elections as well. This addition, which will mean millions of votes, will completely alter the political voting patterns of many Southern states.

[Wendell]

I'd say Chamberlain would leave Ames as governor. In fact he'd be likely to reinforce Ames with the army if need be. Chamberlain's idealism of equality for the blacks would outweigh the political fallout. Afterall the South did lose the War & thus the issue of rights for the blacks & freedom of the slaves.

Whether Chamberlain suffers at the ballot box next time is possible, but we'd be talking probably the 1876 election. In fact the Northern states may completely endorse Chamberlain's tough stance on the issue considering it won the Civil War over such issues a mere 10 year previously.

Also don't forget the blacks will vote in the elections as well. This addition, which will mean millions of votes, will completely alter the political voting patterns of many Southern states.
Now, how might Chamberlain handle issues with neigboring countries?

[DMA]

Now, how might Chamberlain handle issues with neigboring countries?


I think after things such as Reconstruction, Civil Rights, Anti-corrpution actions, & Veteran Affairs, he'll be too preoccupied to be involved in foreign affairs very much. So it wouldn't surprise me if little, or anything, changes from the OTL.

[Wendell]

I think after things such as Reconstruction, Civil Rights, Anti-corrpution actions, & Veteran Affairs, he'll be too preoccupied to be involved in foreign affairs very much. So it wouldn't surprise me if little, or anything, changes from the OTL.
Well, true, I guess, but Grant was looking at expansion while he was President.

[DMA]

Well, true, I guess, but Grant was looking at expansion while he was President.


That may be true of Grant, but Chamberlain will be an Internal Affairs President. Certainly he indicated this in his post-ACW conduct. And considering that he'll absorb himself into Reconstruction, Civil Rights, & above all Veteran Affairs at a national level, he won't have much time left over for a vigourous foreign affairs policy.

Maybe Liberia is taken far more seriously under Chamberlain & indeed becomes, if not an outright state of the USA, it gains territorial status thus involving the USA in African affairs for the next century. Possibly a large chunck of Africa becomes American territory based around Liberia.

Similarly, a "black state" maybe established within the USA borders somewhere (say out west somewhere like Arizona or the Dakoda's? something like that).

[Wendell]

That may be true of Grant, but Chamberlain will be an Internal Affairs President. Certainly he indicated this in his post-ACW conduct. And considering that he'll absorb himself into Reconstruction, Civil Rights, & above all Veteran Affairs at a national level, he won't have much time left over for a vigourous foreign affairs policy.

Maybe Liberia is taken far more seriously under Chamberlain & indeed becomes, if not an outright state of the USA, it gains territorial status thus involving the USA in African affairs for the next century. Possibly a large chunck of Africa becomes American territory based around Liberia.

Similarly, a "black state" maybe established within the USA borders somewhere (say out west somewhere like Arizona or the Dakoda's? something like that).
I was thinking about either getting some of Canada, or the Spanish colonies early through a purchase...

[DMA]

I was thinking about either getting some of Canada, or the Spanish colonies early through a purchase...


I doubt the part about Canada, but the purchase of a Spanish colony or two could work as a place to send "freed blacks" to start a new life etc. This could develop over time to a new state being eventually brought into the Union in a manner akin to Alaska. Maybe even Cuba...

[Wendell]

I doubt the part about Canada, but the purchase of a Spanish colony or two could work as a place to send "freed blacks" to start a new life etc. This could develop over time to a new state being eventually brought into the Union in a manner akin to Alaska. Maybe even Cuba...
There was the possibility in Grant's first term that British Columbia might have joined the U.S. Why give free Blacks their own state?

[Jason Sleeman]

I doubt Chamberlain would pursue as agressive an Indian policy as Grant did.
Perhaps incidents like Little Bighorn would be avoided, as Chamberlain might be more inclined to find non violent solutions to settler-indian conflict.

[Wendell]

I doubt Chamberlain would pursue as agressive an Indian policy as Grant did.
Perhaps incidents like Little Bighorn would be avoided, as Chamberlain might be more inclined to find non violent solutions to settler-indian conflict.
Perhaps he will form Indian-run states in the Union out of the Indian Territory, and parts of Dakota?

[DMA]

There was the possibility in Grant's first term that British Columbia might have joined the U.S. Why give free Blacks their own state?


Well it's possible, but unlikely that British Columbia would have joined the USA. Afterall, Canada has just become its own country around this time.

But the Black state idea can be applied, without a problem from me, to Arizona territory or the Dakota territory as I mentioned before. Likewise the purchase of Cuba is possible where it could be used as a place for freed blacks to go to start a new life. A few decades later, it applies for statehood in the Union.

The thing with Liberia, though, is that slavery was still going on within its neighbourhood. Thus, if the USA reclaims Liberia by Chamberlain, I can easily see US White & Coloured regiments moving into Liberia & then its neighbours to end slavery under a Chamberlain Administration. Such a thing thus sees the USA heavily committed to Africa where there's the possibility of Liberia, Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone & Guinea all becoming part of an unofficial American Empire, which at some future date, could become possible States of the Union.

It also sets the stage for tension between the USA, UK, & France, as each country begins to carve up Africa in the later 1800s.

[DMA]

I doubt Chamberlain would pursue as agressive an Indian policy as Grant did.
Perhaps incidents like Little Bighorn would be avoided, as Chamberlain might be more inclined to find non violent solutions to settler-indian conflict.


Yeah, I completely agree here.

[DMA]

Perhaps he will form Indian-run states in the Union out of the Indian Territory, and parts of Dakota?


Excellent idea. Just throw in a black state out west somewhere ...

[Wendell]

I was thinking that the U.S. might get Cuba, Borinquen, and the entire Spanish Pacific. Then, eventually Hawai'i.

[DMA]

I was thinking that the U.S. might get Cuba, Borinquen, and the entire Spanish Pacific. Then, eventually Hawai'i.


Yeah, there's no reason why that couldn't take place via a purchase.

It stuffs up Teddy becoming President one day though ;) Then again he may rise to fame through some military exploit in Africa freeing the slaves.

[Wendell]

Yeah, there's no reason why that couldn't take place via a purchase.

It stuffs up Teddy becoming President one day though ;) Then again he may rise to fame through some military exploit in Africa freeing the slaves.
Or, through something in Colombia, or the Virgin Islands?

[DMA]

Or, through something in Colombia, or the Virgin Islands?


Well if the USA is off in Africa trying to destroy the slave trade, around Liberia, it sounds better to have Teddy there defending the rights of Americans & humans in general than some vague event in Colombia or the Virgin Islands. It'd certainly fit into Teddy's persona ;)

[Wendell]

Well if the USA is off in Africa trying to destroy the slave trade, around Liberia, it sounds better to have Teddy there defending the rights of Americans & humans in general than some vague event in Colombia or the Virgin Islands. It'd certainly fit into Teddy's persona ;)
True, especially considering his interests later in life. This is becoming interesting.

[DMA]

True, especially considering his interests later in life. This is becoming interesting.


Yeah, so you could have Teddy still come to the Presidency in 1901 as per OTL, but thanks to his military exploits in freeing Africa from slavery, instead of his adventures in Cuba.

The United States itself stretches from the American territory of The Philippines in the Pacific, includes territories such as Cuba, then right across the globe to Africa. Also there are two Native Indian States, Cuba is also a State, and there are two Black States, one in the American west some where & Liberia being another. Whilst a further 20% of Africa is under an American Protectorate.

Furthermore, the USA is far from being isolationist. In fact it's in competition with both France & the UK. A fundamental difference is, unlike the Europeans who are creating an Empire, the USA is simply becoming larger as one entity as the United States with "America" being dropped when Liberia becomes a state.

I'd envisage that, over time, other African states would join the United States, as would The Philippines. Similarly Hawaii & Alaska become states some time as well.

[Jason Sleeman]

1868-1872 Grant/Chamberlain (R)

1872-1880 Chamberlain/Longstreet (R)

1884-1888 Hancock/Gordon (D)

1888-1896 Robert Lincoln/McKinley (R)

1896-1900 Bryan/Parker (D)

1900-1908 T.Roosevelt/Taft (R)

1908-1912 Taft/Stimson (R)

1912-1920 T.Roosevelt/C.E Hughes (R)

1920-1924 W.Wilson/F.D Roosevelt (D)

1924-1932 Hoover/Landon (R)

1932-1948 F.D Roosevelt/Garner(1932-1940) Wallace (1940-1948) (D)

1948-1952 Wallace/Truman (D)

1952-1960 Marshall/McArthur (R)

1960-1964 Nixon/Goldwater (R)

1964-1972 M.L King/L.B Johnson (D)

1972-1976 G McGovern/J.Carter (D)

1976-1984 R Reagan/R.Dole (R)

1984-1988 R.Dole/G.H.W Bush (R)

1988-1996 J.F Kennedy/B Clinton (D)

1996-2000 C Powell/J McCain (R)

2004- J McCain/R Guiliani (R)

A possibility?

[DMA]

I've got three comments Jason:

1) The Gordon of Hancock/Gordon (D) - who is he? Is he John B Gordon of Civil War fame? If so I'd go for a swap & have Chamberlain/Gordon in 1872-1880 & possibly Hancock/Longstreet in 1884-1888.

2) FDR lives to 1948? Now it's possible, but he was pretty sick by 1944 which obviously leads to his OTL death in 1945.

3) Would JFK wait until 1988? And why does Powell only last one term?

[Wendell]

Yeah, so you could have Teddy still come to the Presidency in 1901 as per OTL, but thanks to his military exploits in freeing Africa from slavery, instead of his adventures in Cuba.

The United States itself stretches from the American territory of The Philippines in the Pacific, includes territories such as Cuba, then right across the globe to Africa. Also there are two Native Indian States, Cuba is also a State, and there are two Black States, one in the American west some where & Liberia being another. Whilst a further 20% of Africa is under an American Protectorate.

Furthermore, the USA is far from being isolationist. In fact it's in competition with both France & the UK. A fundamental difference is, unlike the Europeans who are creating an Empire, the USA is simply becoming larger as one entity as the United States with "America" being dropped when Liberia becomes a state.

I'd envisage that, over time, other African states would join the United States, as would The Philippines. Similarly Hawaii & Alaska become states some time as well.
WI PR becomes the "Black State"?

I'm not sure about Africa still, but it could be interesting. TR could become hero if Britain's disputes with Venezuela was elevated, which a U.S. with a much stronger military might be involved with.

[Wendell]

I've got three comments Jason:

1) The Gordon of Hancock/Gordon (D) - who is he? Is he John B Gordon of Civil War fame? If so I'd go for a swap & have Chamberlain/Gordon in 1872-1880 & possibly Hancock/Longstreet in 1884-1888.

2) FDR lives to 1948? Now it's possible, but he was pretty sick by 1944 which obviously leads to his OTL death in 1945.

3) Would JFK wait until 1988? And why does Powell only last one term?
Too many variables in that timeline. What makes TR live longer?

[DMA]

WI PR becomes the "Black State"?


It's possible.


I'm not sure about Africa still, but it could be interesting. TR could become hero if Britain's disputes with Venezuela was elevated, which a U.S. with a much stronger military might be involved with.


Well if something will fire up Chamberlain, to get involved with an agressive foreign policy, it'll be slave related without a doubt. Well that means America getting involved with Liberia & its African neighbours. This would fuel a stronger USN, as well as US army (both white & black regiments), & may well indeed spark disputes with the UK in Africa, which in turn sees the UK get itself involved in America's backyard like in Venezuela.

[DMA]

Too many variables in that timeline. What makes TR live longer?


Well I was raisingthose three questions in regards to Jason Sleeman's Presidential list. You'll have to talk to him about it.

I think you'll find that Jason has Teddy hanging around to at least 1920 as President as he lists:

1900-1908 T.Roosevelt/Taft (R)

1908-1912 Taft/Stimson (R)

1912-1920 T.Roosevelt/C.E Hughes (R)

[Wendell]

Well I was raisingthose three questions in regards to Jason Sleeman's Presidential list. You'll have to talk to him about it.

I think you'll find that Jason has Teddy hanging around to at least 1920 as President as he lists:
Regardless, TR died in 1919. I don't see him running again in such a TL.

[DMA]

Regardless, TR died in 1919. I don't see him running again in such a TL.


Well in the OTL he did run in 1912. There's no reason why he wouldn't again

[Wendell]

Well in the OTL he did run in 1912. There's no reason why he wouldn't again
He might be more content with Taft's leadership in TTL.

[DMA]

He might be more content with Taft's leadership in TTL.


That could be true, but I get the impression that he'll get restless nonetheless. But, of course, that all depends upon what Taft actually does.

[Wendell]

That could be true, but I get the impression that he'll get restless nonetheless. But, of course, that all depends upon what Taft actually does.
Actually, Hughes could run in 1908. Anyway, TR might be busy in Africa. Another question: Why does McKinley have TR as his first and ony VP in TTL?

[DMA]

Actually, Hughes could run in 1908. Anyway, TR might be busy in Africa. Another question: Why does McKinley have TR as his first and ony VP in TTL?


No idea. You'll have to ask Jason

[Wendell]

No idea. You'll have to ask Jason
I've had some interesting ideas about that a Chamberlain Presidency could look like.

[DMA]

I've had some interesting ideas about that a Chamberlain Presidency could look like.


Well I've said a few things, in fact my fair share, so by all means post away ;)

[Wendell]

The 1870's and later 1860's were a time ripe with constitutional amendments, so WI Chamberlain turned the U.S. into a semipresidential republic?

[DMA]

The 1870's and later 1860's were a time ripe with constitutional amendments, so WI Chamberlain turned the U.S. into a semipresidential republic?


What do you mean by "a semipresidential republic"?

[Wendell]

What do you mean by "a semipresidential republic"?
Are you familiar with the current political system in France?

semipresidentialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-presidential_system)

[Wendell]

Consider a federalized version of such a system, Russia may not be a great example.

[DMA]

Are you familiar with the current political system in France?

semipresidentialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-presidential_system)


Yup. Now I get you. It's just I've never heard that term used before. We'd call it a Parliamentary Presidential system.

[Wendell]

Yup. Now I get you. It's just I've never heard that term used before. We'd call it a Parliamentary Presidential system.
I understand you terminology, but I don't like it because most parliamentary states have a weak head of state called a President.

[DMA]

Well, whatever we call it, I can't really see America going down that path. Just getting it through the required channels, that being a complete overhaul of your governmental system, seems unlikely at anytime. Furthermore, the Founding Fathers rejected it anyway & such things are discussed in the Federal Papers by Hamilton & Madison (from memory).

[Wendell]

Well, whatever we call it, I can't really see America going down that path. Just getting it through the required channels, that being a complete overhaul of your governmental system, seems unlikely at anytime. Furthermore, the Founding Fathers rejected it anyway & such things are discussed in the Federal Papers by Hamilton & Madison (from memory).
Parliamentarism is discussed, but I didn't think semipresidentialism was.

[DMA]

I understand you terminology, but I don't like it because most parliamentary states have a weak head of state called a President.


I wouldn't say most. There's plenty of European countries which are Constitutional Monarchies as are Australia, Canada, NZ etc. We have no president at all, yet the PM is probably more powerful than the US President in relation to governmental matters.

[DMA]

Parliamentarism is discussed, but I didn't think semipresidentialism was.


Well both were (albeit your semipresidentialism was done so as part of the Parliamentary debate) & rejected as it was feared mob rule would take place. Hence the deliberate seperation of powers as well as the Electoral College etc.

[Wendell]

I wouldn't say most. There's plenty of European countries which are Constitutional Monarchies as are Australia, Canada, NZ etc. We have no president at all, yet the PM is probably more powerful than the US President in relation to governmental matters.
True, but look at Portugal, the nations of Central Europe, Germany, Baltic States, and parts of the Balkans. That's not to mention several African nations as well as India and Singapore.

[Wendell]

Well both were (albeit your semipresidentialism was done so as part of the Parliamentary debate) & rejected as it was feared mob rule would take place. Hence the deliberate seperation of powers as well as the Electoral College etc.
True, but most of those structures could be left in place.

[DMA]

True, but look at Portugal, the nations of Central Europe, Germany, Baltic States, and parts of the Balkans. That's not to mention several African nations as well as India and Singapore.


Oh sure, but none of these countries governments have zero influence upon the governmental structure of the USA. The Westminister system, though, is the direct ancestor of the Washington system.

[DMA]

True, but most of those structures could be left in place.


Well if they're left in place you can't really have a semipresidential system. A semipresidential system would require the Executive to sit in the Legislature & be a part of Congress. Well that's in clear contradiction with the current system at its most fundamental level.

[Wendell]

Well if they're left in place you can't really have a semipresidential system. A semipresidential system would require the Executive to sit in the Legislature & be a part of Congress. Well that's in clear contradiction with the current system at its most fundamental level.
Not the executive, the junior executive. Promote the Speaker ;)

[DMA]

Not the executive, the junior executive. Promote the Speaker ;)


And what purpose would that serve? As it is now, the President can ignore the VP whenever he wants to, regardless of his role in the Senate.

[Jason Sleeman]

O.K lemme try and get to everyone's questions here.

DMA- Yes the Gordon in my timeline was former confederate General John B Gordon, As a Democrat he ran with Winfield Hancock.

Longstreet as in OTL became a Republican and this is why I arranged the tickets in this manner.

Wendell: Why T.R as McKinley's sole veep? The more conservative elements of the Republican party wanted to place T.R in a place where he might be forgotten and would have little real power. Hence he was relegated to the vice presidency.


Also.... I gave T.R an extra two years dying in june 1921

There are a great deal of changes, I agree, but the list of presidents is not, I believe outside the realm of possibilities. Consider that neither of the two Roosevelts were too concerned about upholding the two term precident.

Jason Sleeman

P.S If I missed a question on this post i will try to get you on the next one.

Kudos to all for the cool ideas on this topic.

[DMA]

O.K lemme try and get to everyone's questions here.

DMA- Yes the Gordon in my timeline was former confederate General John B Gordon, As a Democrat he ran with Winfield Hancock.

Longstreet as in OTL became a Republican and this is why I arranged the tickets in this manner.


Well the reason I thought Gordon would be VP to Chamberlain is because of their moment at Appomattox. They were also the same rank as well (they were both major-generals in the end weren't they?). Having Longstreet, though, as Chamberlain's VP just doesn't have that deep mutual respect, between the two men, & there's also the fact that Longstreet had a superior rank to Chamberlain.

[reformer]

In the single most unlikely literature alternate history I have ever read, it was a short story in the original alternate generals book, Chamberlain becomes president. . . of the confederacy. It was rediculous. And he was president in 1913, when he would have been what, 80?

[Wendell]

I know hy in OTL TR became VP, but I read your suggested TL wrong. Why do you have TR living longer?

[Jason Sleeman]

"Why do you have TR living longer?" I only extended his life by about two years so he would complete his fourth term. No reason really, other than I find T.R interesting :)

[Jason Sleeman]

Been awhile, decided to tweak my President's Timeline

1868-1878 Grant/Chamberlain (R)

{1870-1871} Grant sends James Longstreet as a special ambasador to assist a British delegation in calming tensions following the Ems Telegram incident between France and Prussia.

{1871} Treaty of Versailles-France and Prussia sign non aggression pact. Plans for creation of a Prussian Germany are drawn up. The Kingdom of Prussian Germany includes the OTL German Empire minus Alsace-Lorraine and Bavaria which declines to join and becomes a Wittelsbach Kingdom.

{1872} An Indian Protectorate is formed in out of part of OTL South Dakota
called "Lakota Preserve" for Sitting Bull's Sioux. Vice President Chamberlain meets with Sitting Bull personally during this time, forming a unique friendship.


{1872} Election

Grant/Chamberlain vs Hancock/Gordon Grant/Chamberlain re-elected


more to come....

anyone want to try to continue 1872-1876

Jason Sleeman

[Wendell]

Yourb 1868-1878 should be modified;)

[DTF955Baseballfan]

I was tempted to start a new thread, but since most of what I have to ask comes from this thread, and also it's hard to pick one title, I decided to ask here.

In "If Baseball Integrated Early," I have, for a long time, lacked a guy who was really sure to support gradual integration of the ex-slaves. I focused almost solely on baseball, except for a couple 1-3 pages itnerludes on the rest of the country, because that's what it's about - baseball integrated from the start. I had the following:
1. Chancellorsville ends a Union win, with Hooker incapacitated longer and Couch going on the offensive;
2. The Civil War ending by early Fall of 1863, with much less animosity on both sides, yet all slaves still going free;
3. Lincoln serves 2 full terms (but is pretty sick by the end of his 2nd), and being diplomatic enough be able to handle things gently and yet also crack down on some things, such as lynching;
4. A lack of the worst Jim Crow laws as the South *very* slowly accepted some integration; no Plessey v. Ferguson, etc., but yet only slow integration (think blacks in the South treated like OTl blacks in the North early on);
5. Violence against blacks being almost eliminated by 1900, then thigns getting gradually better till a different President integrates the military after World War One,, integration speeding up in the 1920s, and complete by then end of World War Two, as the races fought side by side and then wound up living side by side afterward.

Now, to do this, I sort of glossed over Presidents, except for an alternate Oscar Underwood replacing Wilson. With him having grown up in a world with a little more tolerance of the races, the man who was willing to take a stand agains tthe KKK in OTL is more willing to take a stand for the rights of blacks, and ends up integrating the military a la OTL's Truman, and then speaking for the need to integrate further after his Presidency. (This doesn't sound ASB to me, considering the vast changes between this TL and OTl; I chose him because he seemed rather moderate compared to many in his party in OTL, and even then, he's this TL's Harry Truman, not Lyndon Johnson.)

My question is, does this TL need specific mention of a President who is in favor of integration, like Chamberlain, early? I didn't want to make it *too* utopian by having integration complete by 1900 or anything. So, as it stands, I have Grant elected to one term, as the Hero of Vicksburg but not the man who fought for 2 years to bring down the CSA, then Hayes for a term, then Tilden.

Does Chamberlain need to replace Grant to make it plausible? Or hayes, and serve 2 terms?(Which I think may be more likely.) Or, does the very slow pace of integration seem to indicate that a Chamberlain Presidency would speed things up too much?

I suppose an alternative exists in something someone said, about his being Garfield's Vice President. I don't mention *who* that is, only that Garfield's assassination leads to Civil Service reform. I imagine it's possible to presume that in this TL, it's Chamberlain, not Arthur, and that he then wins re-election in 1884. Cleveland can win in 1888, and serve 2 terms, eliminating Benjamin Harrison. Since Chamberlain's main injury was at Petersburtg, a battle that doesn't happen in this TL, that may be the best answer of all.

I changed pennant races in a couple different places, so it wouldn't be hard to just replace hayes and Tilden with Chamberlain in the text in a few places.

[Plumber]

That's some necromancy! :eek:

[Emperor Norton I]

There seems to be a thing for necromancy lately.

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Wow - this thread is older than I thought - one problem with just searching using the searching engine (I wonder if ti's a record? :)) Still it seems logical rather than start another thread about someone that would not have been mentioned as President otehrwise very often. (I guess I could have linked to it - but then people would have gone to the thread and then maybe revived it, anyway)

Anyhow, seeing from comments that he might have also been likely to be kinder to the natives, perhaps it is best to mention him? Butterflies also eliminate the wars against natives, but perhaps it's also necessary to have a President who is willing to have a more peaceful policy regarding natives?

OTOH, few would know who Chamberlain is; without even Gettysburg, let alone petersburg where he was injured, he might get into politics, but his youth and need to build himself up means that he'd be *less* likely to be President in 1872, let alone 1868. He'd be more like Garfield himself.

So, having him replace Arthur and Cleveland's first term (with Cleveland serving 2 non-consecutive) might be best. it would allow him to step in and make sure things do advance on a few fronts, while providing one mroe reason why the South doesn't pass any Jim Crow laws. And, while there aren't the major Indian Wars of OTL, things could still be rather tense at times, yet Chamberlain in the 1880s would smooth things out for good, allowing 1-2 Indian states or something, though again, sicne that's not the focus, things can easily be glossed over without having to go into a lot of detail.

I think that's what I'll do, since there weren't other comments. Mods, you can delete the 2010 stuff on here if you want. Sorry to have pulled one up fromthis long ago.

[Mikestone8]

OTOH, few would know who Chamberlain is; without even Gettysburg, let alone petersburg where he was injured, he might get into politics, but his youth and need to build himself up means that he'd be *less* likely to be President in 1872, let alone 1868. He'd be more like Garfield himself.

So, having him replace Arthur and Cleveland's first term (with Cleveland serving 2 non-consecutive) might be best. it would allow him to step in and make sure things do advance on a few fronts, while providing one mroe reason why the South doesn't pass any Jim Crow laws.


How many Jim Crow laws had there been as of 1889? I thought they didn't really get under way until the 1890s. Up till then wasn't it mainly a case of keeping enough fredmen away from the polls to ensure against the Republicans actually winning any statewide races - as distinct from the odd Congressional seat and a token presence in the Legislature?

Also (and more cynically) if Chamberlain is really as upright and honourable as this, has he any realistic chance of getting on a national ticket?

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

IMO, this is a perfect example of GOOD necromancy.

For instance, the necromantic post contained lots of additional comment (not just a 'what do you guys think', like some of the necromancies). The poster discussed WHY he was raising it, and not starting a new thread. And he hasn't done a bunch.

So,
Good on you, cobber (to channel our southern friends)

[DTF955Baseballfan]

How many Jim Crow laws had there been as of 1889? I thought they didn't really get under way until the 1890s. Up till then wasn't it mainly a case of keeping enough fredmen away from the polls to ensure against the Republicans actually winning any statewide races - as distinct from the odd Congressional seat and a token presence in the Legislature?

Also (and more cynically) if Chamberlain is really as upright and honourable as this, has he any realistic chance of getting on a national ticket?

In OTL, it was - as I said, elections had sort of been glossed over, but it's probably true that things do stay pretty close to the same as OTL to this point.

About whether he could get close to a national ticket, that's why V.P might be the best spot for him. And, if he only has 4 ye3ars instead of 8 to mold things, that makes it better yet so the TL doesn't have equality too fast. And, the more I think about it, I think the gradual way it happens is probably most plausible, even with a Chamberlain Presidency.

Chamberlain then becomes more someone to keep any Jim Crow laws from passing, and influence things to get a little better. Which is still quite a good accomplishment. Perhaps a good phrase to throw in would be to mention things helped by "the work of Joshua Chamberlain...' that could mean as President, as a Senator, as a baseball club owner :))

Anyway, as noted, I think that's what I'm going with; thanks for the kind words, Darthi, it did seem better to do this than to start a whole new thread, since it's just for one small purpose.