"Agreement of the People" - A Leveller TL

[TheNordicBrit]

1647

August
- New Model Army takes over the City of London from its Presbyterian opponents, the Levellers proceeded to set their headquarters up in Putney.

October
28th - The 'Grandees' and Levellers meet in the Church of St. Mary the Virgin, Putney to debate the political future of England.

November

5th - Both Henry Ireton and Oliver Cromwell are both stricken with malaria, a horrible illness. Their states deteriorate rapidly and by the 7th Ireton has died. The news of this from Cromwell's daughter (whom was Ireton's wife) drives Cromwell deeper into his illness. However he attempts to survive, though he can't help but become more ill with grief.

8th - Both of the 'Grandees' are dead, and now it seems the political cause of the Parliamentarians is lost. However the decisive movements and actions taken by the Leveller leaders now will in future be praised as the best course of action. Colonel Edward Sexby, Colonel Thomas Rainsborough, Major William Rainborowe and Colonel Thomas Rawton all moved rapidly and sent messengers all around the New Model Army explaining the situation, they also requested all men loyal to the 'Good Old Cause' rally together and to not simply crumble into anarchy. Also to deal with potential political implications the Levellers draw their views together, release John Lilburne from prison and set up their headquarters again.

14th - Most army units in the New Model Army have pledged their support for the Levellers whom are now effectively in control of the Army for the time being. However to cement their control over the army they contact Fairfax to request his allegiance to their cause.

18th - Fairfax finally pledges his allegiance to the Parliamentarians though not the Levellers as he doesn't wish to become a political figure, however by this time King Charles I has contacted the Scots in order to request their allegiance against the now weakened Parliamentarians, also Royalist uprisings begin to occur around England as small pockets of Royalists start to revolt in the major towns of England. Also the Scots armies mass on the English border.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[TheNordicBrit]

A Brief History of the English Civil Wars: J. Miller

Second Civil War

Not long after the Leveller take-over of the army Royalist rebels began to spring up around England again, while in Scotland an army was being prepared in support of King Charles I whom had made a deal with the Scots...

At the beginning of the Second English Civil War the Parliamentarian forces were quite chaotic as two of the best generals had died within days of each other in a time of instability anyway. However the actions taken by the more powerful Levellers, Thomas Fairfax and the various army generals meant that the New Model Army didn't fall apart, the men had been taught well and were good at obeying orders...

This war was much shorter than the First, however both sides would still take numerous casualties. For example in the Battle of Bradford the Scots under the Duke of Hamilton faced off against an army led by Thomas Rainsborough. The two sides fought vigorously for a whole day until finally the Parliamentarians won the day, with the Duke of Hamilton being captured...

Finally in July 1648 the Scots army retreated back across the border and all major Royalist rebellions had been put down. During this war the Leveller commanders had in fact shown very good tactical and strategic abilities alongside Fairfax. Thomas Rainsborough was even promoted to General by Parliament...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1648

July - Parliament yet again wins a Civil War against the Royalists and this time the Scots. However the New Model Army now practically controlled politically by the Levellers is unsure as to what the fate of King Charles I should be. Many in the army in fact call for him to be put on trial, and the Leveller leaders swing heavily towards the idea of a Republican England.

August - King Charles I is finally put on trial for "high treason", he is found guilty and is beheaded outside Whitehall Palace. Many believe the trial to have simply been a front and that whatever happened Charles I was to die somehow.

September - The "Leveled Parliament" comes about, with members who may disagree with the Levellers not being allowed into the Commons. The amount of MPs in Parliament are few now and into the double-digits.

October - The "Agreement of the People" is written up by the Levellers. It includes sections on complete religious freedom for non-Catholics, all self-sustained males over the age of 21 should be able to vote/take part in politics, in the "eyes of the law" everyone is equal (including women) and lastly a new Parliament is to be elected biannually.

[Blackadder mk 2]

I wonder what the European continent will think of the new liberal Britain.

I assume that the Diggers will surface along with Monarchists and Slavery will be banned:D:D:D

Still my only criticism's with your TL's is that you never end them but I can digress.

[TheNordicBrit]

I wonder what the European continent will think of the new liberal Britain.

I assume that the Diggers will surface along with Monarchists and Slavery will be banned:D:D:D

Still my only criticism's with your TL's is that you never end them but I can digress.
It's not too liberal, I mean Catholicism is still illegal, anyone who depends on another man for their wealth (i.e. servants) and women won't be able to take part politically. But yes, there will be interesting reactions in Europe and the Colonies.

The Diggers will pick up some support now, however it won't be hugely significant. Also the Royalists will be kept on a tight leash as well.

And yeah, well it's that my mind wanders or I run out of decent ideas. mostly my mind wanders though.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Do you mean by "This war lasted much longer than the First did" that it was much shorter? Like the OTL 2nd war it only lasted about a year.

What is happening in Scotland after this war? OTL they linked up with Charles II to launch a new attack which ultimately ended up with the English occupation of Scotland. Might this time some agreement be made between the two kingdoms to avoid further conflict or will the Scottish Kirk be too determined to expand power?

Could be interesting times. Initially not too great a difference, from the outside anyway, to OTL. The king has been executed for treason [rightly in my opinion;)] and the country is moving towards a republic. I presume there will still be an intervention in Ireland to end the conflict there and the threat it posed to the republic.

That is one area where things could get distinctly nastier than OTL. With a Leveller led Parliament there could be a rejection of the debts claimed by various lenders that OTL led to them ending up as major landowners. [Especially since the loans in question were made nearly a decade before to Charles, to put down the revolt against him]. Instead you might get some implementation of the Connaught plan, so that instead of landowners attempts are made to deport the entire population and replace them with 'good English Protestants'.

How do the Levellers and other feel about the other great [albeit very mercantile] republic in the Netherlands? Politically and possibly religious a potential ally but economically the great rival. That could be the key relationship in the short term.

Steve

[Art]

Digger's came to show the people's will, they defied the landlords, they defied the laws, they were the disposed reclaiming what WAS THEIRS. HURRAH!

[demonkangaroo]

Ooo, cool. I've always wondered what would happen if the Levellers won the Civil War.

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

Do you mean by "This war lasted much longer than the First did" that it was much shorter? Like the OTL 2nd war it only lasted about a year.

What is happening in Scotland after this war? OTL they linked up with Charles II to launch a new attack which ultimately ended up with the English occupation of Scotland. Might this time some agreement be made between the two kingdoms to avoid further conflict or will the Scottish Kirk be too determined to expand power?

Could be interesting times. Initially not too great a difference, from the outside anyway, to OTL. The king has been executed for treason [rightly in my opinion;)] and the country is moving towards a republic. I presume there will still be an intervention in Ireland to end the conflict there and the threat it posed to the republic.

That is one area where things could get distinctly nastier than OTL. With a Leveller led Parliament there could be a rejection of the debts claimed by various lenders that OTL led to them ending up as major landowners. [Especially since the loans in question were made nearly a decade before to Charles, to put down the revolt against him]. Instead you might get some implementation of the Connaught plan, so that instead of landowners attempts are made to deport the entire population and replace them with 'good English Protestants'.

How do the Levellers and other feel about the other great [albeit very mercantile] republic in the Netherlands? Politically and possibly religious a potential ally but economically the great rival. That could be the key relationship in the short term.

Steve
I did yes, thanks for pointing that out I shall change it.

Scotland will be included in the next update.

And for now you're quite right, the dust needs to settle still. And yes there will still be a military intervention in Ireland here. So not hugely different at first.

I haven't heard of the Connaught plan, could you tell me a little more about it?

I'm not sure about individuals in the Leveller movement, however they will be more pro-Republican Dutch politicians, and anti-Orangist.

[TheNordicBrit]

1648

October - The Scottish Parliament debates on whether or not they'll declare Prince Charles as King Charles II of Scotland.

November - Under heavy influence from the Kirk the Parliament does in fact declare Prince Charles as King Charles II of Scotland. While in England the 'Leveller Parliament' votes on the 'Agreement of the People' and whether it should be brought into effect. This passes easily with a radical Parliament now. Not long after this is passed the New Model Army is again mobilized northwards, with Fairfax yet again taking the lead of the army.

December - The Scottish forces manage to somehow avoid the English troops to such a degree that they begin to siege York. The city holds out against the Scots however, at which point a section of the New Model Army makes its way to York. In the ensuing battle Colonel Edward Sexby shows great tactical abilities and resolve as he managed to hold his army together and wins the day (much like Cromwell at Marston Moor). The Scots forces abandon the siege for that day and are pushed back slightly.

1649

January - The Scots forces manage to win a victory at the Battle of Newcastle, pushing back English troops from the Scots border.

February - However the NMA manages to score a defining victory at the Battle of Dumfries, in which both Thomas Fairfax and Thomas Rainsborough utterly destroyed the main body of the Scots army whom had been pushed back to Dumfries where they stood their ground and fought back. In the battle 'Charles II' is severely injured, in the near future this injury will mean his left arm is amputated. Alongside this in the Siege of Carlisle Scots forces were again defeated by the NMA under Colonel Thomas Rawton. Though in this battle Prince James (second son of King Charles I) was killed by a stray bullet.

March - While Charles II lost an arm through this Civil War, he wasn't willing to give up. After several more battles however the Scots had been beaten back to just beyond the Scottish Borders and Dumfries and Galloway. However the armies are now at a stand-still. Neither side is making territorial headway against the other and only minor skirmishes are occurring.

April - The Scottish Parliament secretly goes behind the back of Charles II and begin talks with the 'Leveller Parliament'. The eventual Treaty of Newcastle was created, the main points of this Treaty were a) Peace between the Kingdoms of Scotland and England, b) Further discussions will be held between the Kingdoms as to the future of the Monarchy in each nation, c) control over the Scottish Borders and Dumfries and Galloway is jointly under England and Scotland, d) the Scottish government wouldn't help the Irish rebels in any way and lastly e) Charles II would be captured and imprisoned in Dumfries and thus under technical joint control of England and Scotland.

May - Within the 'Leveller Parliament' the members reach an agreement on what should happen in England with concerns to the future of the Monarchy. They agree that England should become a Republic. At the same time in Scotland they debate the future their own Kingdoms monarchy, it is agreed that 'Charles II' certainly cannot stay as the Scots monarch as he began another Civil War with the English that ended in a stalemate. It's also argued that a female shouldn't take the crown either, and thus there's one Stewart option left. In the 'York Debates' both sides put their arguments forward, and by the end of May they've reached an agreement. England and Scotland would end their personal-union, Scotland would keep the Monarchy with the young Henry Stuart, Duke of Gloucester being made King Henry I of Scotland. While England would become a Republic, alongside the Kingdom of Ireland. The head of state would be the 'Lord President'. Lastly the two sides agreed to a kind of non-aggression pact that would last until Henry I came of age.

[MerryPrankster]

This is interesting. A more democratic England, but no United Kingdom anymore.

Keep up the good work.

[Blackadder mk 2]

This is interesting. A more democratic England, but no United Kingdom anymore.

Keep up the good work.

Unless Henry of Scotland decides to reclaim England and/or fails to do so.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Well events are going to make a Stuart restoration more difficult now in England. The peace between England and Scotland means that the English parliament doesn't have the burden of garrisoning the latter. There will still be some mistrust and border garrisons but that was a fairly substantial burden that is now largely removed so England should be better off financially.

Also the fact that Scotland maintains a Stuart king, but has rejected Charles, coupled with James'es death means that the dynasty is split. Depending on how much of a king - as opposed to possibly just a puppet? - Henry must to some degree stand in opposition to his brother, who can't really claim the throne of England, against the republic, without also undermining his brother's legitimacy to the Scot's throne.

In Ireland I'm not sure whether the bulk of the Ulster settlements had occurred yet, as they came mainly from Scotland, unlike the English Pale around Dublin. If not would this still occur?

In terms of Connaught I tried looking up on Wiki to refresh my memory but couldn't really find anything yet. What basically happened is that many/most of the Catholic landowners were deported to Connaught, which was the former kingdom in the west of Ireland. Even there I think the land along the coast was formally reserved for Protestant landlords. [Probably to try and secure control and make intervention from overseas more difficult]. In part this was to secure control and prevent further rebellions. Also there was the case that several rich financiers had made large loans to Charles I to help him raise forces to defeat the initial Irish rebellions starting ~1641. OTL they presented their claims for repayment to Parliament and were given large estates in Ireland from amongst the seized estates. [Not sure whether this was in liu of payment or the intention from the beginning].

TTL a Leveller dominated England may be less friendly toward such wealthy grandees presenting claims for debts incurred by the previous, now deposed and executed monarch. I was unclear why this was done OTL unless it was a wish of Cromwell and others who, having decided against the more egalitarian elements such as the Levellers wished to win over such powerful people and their equivalents. [One problem for England in TTL, if the wealthy feel insecure many may seek to leave the country. Since most wealth is still overwhelmingly in land this is not a great problem economically, but it could mean both some social disruption and the loss of a number of the great merchant trades, especially from London, you have more mobile wealth plus the loss of their expertise].

If the debtors claims are rejected, as I said previous this could be bad for the ordinary Irish. Instead of a top layer of landowners Parliament might seek to secure control by encouraging more mass settlement from England. Possibly even something like the old Roman system of veterans colonies. In that case instead of Irish landowners being sent west it could be the entire population in some areas. Not sure how many English [and possibly Scots] might be available but you could see a significant movement, possibly markedly reducing that which goes to the American and Caribbean colonies. You might also in this case see some level of conversion, especially possibly from the 'old English' settlers of the Pale, seeking to avoid such deportations.

Hope that helps. If I get the chance and find out more I will let you know.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

Unless Henry of Scotland decides to reclaim England and/or fails to do so.
The development of King Henry I as a King will be full of heavy Protestant and (Scottish) Parliamentarian influence, however one point I must say about is that IOTL Prince Henry was supposedly an excellent soldier. Make of this what you will, it may not be quite what you expect.
Well events are going to make a Stuart restoration more difficult now in England. The peace between England and Scotland means that the English parliament doesn't have the burden of garrisoning the latter. There will still be some mistrust and border garrisons but that was a fairly substantial burden that is now largely removed so England should be better off financially.

Most certainly, the Stewart's will attempt to get England, Scotland and Ireland back (not the Scots Stewart's, the claimant Stewart's) but they shan't succeed.

Also the fact that Scotland maintains a Stuart king, but has rejected Charles, coupled with James'es death means that the dynasty is split. Depending on how much of a king - as opposed to possibly just a puppet? - Henry must to some degree stand in opposition to his brother, who can't really claim the throne of England, against the republic, without also undermining his brother's legitimacy to the Scot's throne.

Yes, that was part of the thinking of the Levellers when they accepted Scotland having a Stewart as a King, alongside the fact they hadn't managed to fully take Scotland. Also on Henry I as I said above, he'll be brought up to accept some form of Parliament rule and Presbyterianism. However he will be a good leader in a military-sense.

In Ireland I'm not sure whether the bulk of the Ulster settlements had occurred yet, as they came mainly from Scotland, unlike the English Pale around Dublin. If not would this still occur?

This is lifted straight from Wikipedia: "Another wave of Scottish immigration to Ulster took place in the 1690s, when tens of thousands of Scots fled a famine (1696–1698) in the border region of Scotland. It was at this point that Scottish Presbyterians became the majority community in the province. Whereas in the 1660s, they made up some 20% of Ulster's population (though 60% of its' British population) by 1720 they were an absolute majority in Ulster." Thus it would seem the Scottish are the main settlers in Ulster, however they aren't a majority. And English settlers will be making biggish appearances in Ireland.

In terms of Connaught I tried looking up on Wiki to refresh my memory but couldn't really find anything yet. What basically happened is that many/most of the Catholic landowners were deported to Connaught, which was the former kingdom in the west of Ireland. Even there I think the land along the coast was formally reserved for Protestant landlords. [Probably to try and secure control and make intervention from overseas more difficult]. In part this was to secure control and prevent further rebellions. Also there was the case that several rich financiers had made large loans to Charles I to help him raise forces to defeat the initial Irish rebellions starting ~1641. OTL they presented their claims for repayment to Parliament and were given large estates in Ireland from amongst the seized estates. [Not sure whether this was in liu of payment or the intention from the beginning].

TTL a Leveller dominated England may be less friendly toward such wealthy grandees presenting claims for debts incurred by the previous, now deposed and executed monarch. I was unclear why this was done OTL unless it was a wish of Cromwell and others who, having decided against the more egalitarian elements such as the Levellers wished to win over such powerful people and their equivalents. [One problem for England in TTL, if the wealthy feel insecure many may seek to leave the country. Since most wealth is still overwhelmingly in land this is not a great problem economically, but it could mean both some social disruption and the loss of a number of the great merchant trades, especially from London, you have more mobile wealth plus the loss of their expertise].

If the debtors claims are rejected, as I said previous this could be bad for the ordinary Irish. Instead of a top layer of landowners Parliament might seek to secure control by encouraging more mass settlement from England. Possibly even something like the old Roman system of veterans colonies. In that case instead of Irish landowners being sent west it could be the entire population in some areas. Not sure how many English [and possibly Scots] might be available but you could see a significant movement, possibly markedly reducing that which goes to the American and Caribbean colonies. You might also in this case see some level of conversion, especially possibly from the 'old English' settlers of the Pale, seeking to avoid such deportations.

Ah thank you, this is highly interesting. It suddenly changes the possibilities with Ireland, so thank you for the idea. I will gradually tell the tale of the debtors and Irish in further installments, however the Connaught plan will be making an appearance. Alongside sudden English loyalties re-appearing in the Pale. I don't want to give too much away though ;)

[MerryPrankster]

With parliamentarism getting stronger in Scotland, could some kind of deal be made where Scotland is incorporated into a new British Republic and Henry is bought off by making him Chief of Staff of the combined military or something similar?

(That might worry people, as he could in theory use the position to stage a coup and take England as well.)

[TheNordicBrit]

With parliamentarism getting stronger in Scotland, could some kind of deal be made where Scotland is incorporated into a new British Republic and Henry is bought off by making him Chief of Staff of the combined military or something similar?

(That might worry people, as he could in theory use the position to stage a coup and take England as well.)
Any kind of formal union will be a while from now, though I'm still unsure on a union so we'll see. However joining England currently isn't exactly high on a list of possibilities, in that the Scots have a King whom will lose many previous Monarchal powers. The Covenanters will get what they wanted, and so there'll be no real reason for at this moment to join with England.

[Derek Jackson]

Might a Parliament elected by manhood suffrage (or indeed adult suffrage but that was not on the agenda) have actually turned out to be quite reactionary and invited Charles back?

[TheNordicBrit]

Might a Parliament elected by manhood suffrage (or indeed adult suffrage but that was not on the agenda) have actually turned out to be quite reactionary and invited Charles back?
Well so-far a new Parliament hasn't been elected, the election is being held off due to war and the creation of a Constitution. However in a sense you are correct in the sense that many of the people whom could previously vote will now vote for anti-Levellers. However my History teacher said the other day how the people who could vote were about 2-4% of the population, while males at the age of 21 or over who were self-sufficient were about 16-18% of the population. Thus you have 17% more of the population who can suddenly vote, and they aren't going to want to give this sudden right away.

Alongside this I expect religious propaganda will be used to get people to vote 'Leveller'. Though of course there aren't set political parties at this point, simply groups/individuals.

[TheNordicBrit]

1649

June - The 'Leveller Parliament' officially declares that Jews are allowed back into England after the centuries of which they'd been banned. Alongside this the Levellers began to send thousands of troops from Great Britain over to Ireland. The war in Ireland was intensifying, and although the English had the upper-hand the Irish rebels were also using their own religion to keep moral at an extreme high.

July - In the Republic of England eyes turn to more lax domestic affairs. For example one of the biggest problems Parliament faced was getting rid of the 'Rotten Boroughs'. The Levellers began the second mass-census of England in order to change the boundaries to fit population densities fairly. Another domestic problem were the Royalists as while all the rebellions had been put down now, many people believed that in order to help the economic recovery of England alongside helping the payment of the NMA Parliament should introduce a bill on taxing Royalists heavily. This became known as the 'Militia Bill' which was passed with relative ease, and thus known Royalists were forced to pay huge amounts of tax. This led to numerous bankruptcies and many Royalists fleeing abroad to the North American colonies.

August - In South Wales where there had previously been a large amount of Royalist support the previous Colonel Rice Powell instigates a rebellion against Parliament for what he believed to be "unjust taxation". It was expected that this rebellion would spread like wildfire, however it was simply centred around Cardiff. A large detachment of troops in the New Model Army was sent to Cardiff, and in the infamous 'Siege of Cardiff' it's been claimed that "the last thoughts of true, English rebellions were done away with in a Welsh town".

September - The Royalist tax is effectively paying for the war in Ireland. However although the new Republic was stabilizing the Levellers were worried of calling an election at this point in time as they didn't wish to lose power in Parliament yet. Also sights turned to foreign affairs, in which France and Spain were still at war, the Catalonians were rebelling from Spanish rule and the Dutch still outclassed the English in trade. These various issues were debated over in Parliament as to how the English Republic should interact with the various European nations.

This is just a little update, as I won't be able to send one tomorrow.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

I think Derek may have a point about the problem with royalist support still being a problem, if the electorate is expanded. Throughout the Commonwealth period there seems to have been concerns that new elections would allow royalists to gain power. True the electorate is likely to be distinctly broader in TTL and hopefully the economy better with taxes and unrest lower but there will continue to be a prominent bloc of potential royalist support simply because any alternative was so unthinkable to people at the time. [For instance think of the situation in France. For much of the time after the revolution until at least WWI there seems to have been prominent blocs supporting either Bourbon or Napoleonic restoration, including very shortly after the collapse of the 2nd empire].

On the question of the Jews while I could see the commonwealth allowing them back into the country, as it did OTL I doubt, especially with the uncertainty about events and the speed of communications, that 3 months would allow many to move back, let alone playing a significant part in boosting the economy. Also while a tax on royalists might be practical it's likely to be divisive and complex. Much better I would have thought to possible target big and wealthy royalist supports and possibly pressurising them for 'donations'. Possibly that's what you mean rather than a general tax on pro-royalists?

Steve

[Jester]

.... how do you tax just Royalists?

[stevep]

.... how do you tax just Royalists?

That would be part of the problem. Unless TheNordicBrit is basically targeting some of the big aristocratic landowners who supported the monarchy. Or their estates as many of them have probably fled already. Could possibly have some of them seized and parcelled out to poorer farmers and labourers. May not be the most effective agriculturally but could be a big vote winner.

If you actually start targeting 'small' royalist supporters you have the problems:
a) You would need a large, for the time anyway, bureaucracy to administer it. While would also be open to corruption and favourtism.

b) What do you do when someone who say served in the Royalist armies - and not later in the NMA as a lot of POW did I believe, claim they were pressurised into it by their landlord? If you still try and tax such people you're going to make a hell of a lot of enemies.

The 1st task of a government after a [successful] civil war is to mend the gulf between the two [or more] communities. Some extractions from the more prominent opponents yes and action against anyone who did anything generally considered as a crime. However if it's a true civil war, with large proportions of the population on both sides of the conflict you need to avoid having half you're population bled white holding the other half in slavery.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

I think Derek may have a point about the problem with royalist support still being a problem, if the electorate is expanded. Throughout the Commonwealth period there seems to have been concerns that new elections would allow royalists to gain power. True the electorate is likely to be distinctly broader in TTL and hopefully the economy better with taxes and unrest lower but there will continue to be a prominent bloc of potential royalist support simply because any alternative was so unthinkable to people at the time. [For instance think of the situation in France. For much of the time after the revolution until at least WWI there seems to have been prominent blocs supporting either Bourbon or Napoleonic restoration, including very shortly after the collapse of the 2nd empire].

Ah right I understand it now. While there are obviously going to be many Royalist factions still in the country the electing of Royalists will be banned. This Leveller Parliament won't be going to the electorate yet and when they do many people with Leveller convictions will be elected alongside many Conservatives as well whom will have some Royalist views, however these views won't be allowed if you know what I mean? It'll be very hush-hush.

On the question of the Jews while I could see the commonwealth allowing them back into the country, as it did OTL I doubt, especially with the uncertainty about events and the speed of communications, that 3 months would allow many to move back, let alone playing a significant part in boosting the economy. Also while a tax on royalists might be practical it's likely to be divisive and complex. Much better I would have thought to possible target big and wealthy royalist supports and possibly pressurising them for 'donations'. Possibly that's what you mean rather than a general tax on pro-royalists?

Steve
It's a fair point about Jewish help to the economy, so I'll edit that bit out seeing as it's only been a few months. And the taxation on the Royalists is as you say simply on the big land-owners, not simply a blanket tax on any Royalist. However as you say this will be divisive, though at this point in time the Republic of England is still a little chaotic. A war's still going on in Ireland and practically an entire generation of young men have become casualties, thus for now somethings Parliament does won't be very well thought out.
.... how do you tax just Royalists?

That would be part of the problem. Unless TheNordicBrit is basically targeting some of the big aristocratic landowners who supported the monarchy. Or their estates as many of them have probably fled already. Could possibly have some of them seized and parcelled out to poorer farmers and labourers. May not be the most effective agriculturally but could be a big vote winner.

If you actually start targeting 'small' royalist supporters you have the problems:
a) You would need a large, for the time anyway, bureaucracy to administer it. While would also be open to corruption and favourtism.

b) What do you do when someone who say served in the Royalist armies - and not later in the NMA as a lot of POW did I believe, claim they were pressurised into it by their landlord? If you still try and tax such people you're going to make a hell of a lot of enemies.

The 1st task of a government after a [successful] civil war is to mend the gulf between the two [or more] communities. Some extractions from the more prominent opponents yes and action against anyone who did anything generally considered as a crime. However if it's a true civil war, with large proportions of the population on both sides of the conflict you need to avoid having half you're population bled white holding the other half in slavery.

Steve
Again you are correct Steve, the everyday ordinary Royalist supporter won't be taxed. However the big landowners and their estates will be taxed, and an idea I had was in fact (as Steve says) to seize some Royalist land in England to hand over to farmers to win over more votes for the 'Leveller' cause. This even means giving some land to previous Royalist troops as well, as Steve says you need to make the two sides come together and 'forgive-and-forget' in a sense.

[stevep]

Again you are correct Steve, the everyday ordinary Royalist supporter won't be taxed. However the big landowners and their estates will be taxed, and an idea I had was in fact (as Steve says) to seize some Royalist land in England to hand over to farmers to win over more votes for the 'Leveller' cause. This even means giving some land to previous Royalist troops as well, as Steve says you need to make the two sides come together and 'forgive-and-forget' in a sense.

TheNordicBrit

Now that is crafty.;) Giving some land to former Royalist soldiers will mean they have a vested interest in preventing the grandees returning. Hence any royalist programme will have to support either common people or the [former] rich and powerful.

You do have to be a little careful. Select prominent royalists who have fled the country and possibly also makes sure their tenants also get a good share of the lands seized. However target too many and especially those who haven't fled and seem, or at least claimed, to have accepted the change of system, and you will make too many people feel insecure. Which could not only cause political problems but also economic ones if you frighten away too many people with knowledge and resources.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

Now that is crafty.;) Giving some land to former Royalist soldiers will mean they have a vested interest in preventing the grandees returning. Hence any royalist programme will have to support either common people or the [former] rich and powerful.

You do have to be a little careful. Select prominent royalists who have fled the country and possibly also makes sure their tenants also get a good share of the lands seized. However target too many and especially those who haven't fled and seem, or at least claimed, to have accepted the change of system, and you will make too many people feel insecure. Which could not only cause political problems but also economic ones if you frighten away too many people with knowledge and resources.

Steve
I'm glad you think so :p It's for that exact reason, in a sense there's no bias among the 'common-man'.

Only a few have left the country, alongside some of the troops whom weren't in the gentry, however it's not a mass-exodus. The amount of taxation will vary and shan't be a simple blanket-amount.

[TheNordicBrit]

1649

October
- In England the 'Royal Migration' begins. This is where a number of Royalist landowners moved overseas to escape the taxes imposed on them, however many also stayed. The migrants would go mainly to the United Provinces, France or the Colonies in North America.

- In the Highlands of Scotland the pretender to the Scots and English thrones, King Charles II lands with a force of around 1000 men pulled together from France, Spain and even some Irish escapees on the continent, Charles 'II' also had Prince Rupert of the Rhine with him. This rather small force quickly gathered support from many of the highlanders in the north of Scotland whom joined the 'Carolinian Cause'.

- While the War in Ireland was still ongoing, the Leveller Parliament met to debate on what should be done in the aftermath of Parliamentary victory. Many arguments were thrown around, however the 'Connaught Plan' won the day in Parliament. This plan called for the native catholic Irish in Ireland to be forcibly moved to the province of Connaught. English Protestants will then settle in the taken lands, and also the coastal regions of Connaught would be occupied by English settlers.

November
- In Scotland Charles 'II' succeeds in the 'Siege of Inverness', thus capturing the first large city in Scotland. His troops numbers have actually risen to around 22,000 men. Next he starts to move southwards towards Dundee.

- The Scottish Parliament is shocked by this revelation, and an army is quickly put together. The 9 year old King Henry I is placed under heavy protection in Edinburgh Castle for fears of any Carolinian revolution in the Lowlands. The army is 30,000 men strong, and is made up of various previous Covenant troops alongside new troops who have been raised.

- Numerous Royalist lands that have been left after the 'Royal Migration' are taken by the Leveller Parliament. Over the following years these lands will be handed off to a number of Civil War troops from both sides. The land distribution will be 75:25 for the Parliamentarian troops and Royalist troops respectively.

- When the English learn of the Carolinian revolt in Scotland they move a number of troops to the shared Scottish Borders and Dumfries and Galloway to make sure the army doesn't make it south of Scotland. The Leveller Parliament doesn't trust the Scots and their army and thus various invasion plans are made in case of a Carolinian takeover of Scotland.

December
- The Scots army makes it to Dundee first, however the Carolinian troops gathered word that the Scots army would go there first and had diverted their course away from the main body of the Scottish army. They'd turned east out of the Highlands and into the north-eastern Lowlands, and the siege of Aberdeen began.

- The Scots army was forced to dislodge itself from the town of Dundee after having heard of the Carolinian army's change of course to Aberdeen.

- The English garrison is tightened up in the jointly owned areas, and the Scottish government is being massively pressured by the Leveller Parliament to deal with the pretender Charles 'II'.

[Blackadder mk 2]

Seems to me that Scotland may have a few less provinces after this war.

Also what will happen with the Irish and Slavery? Will it be better or worse?

[stevep]

Seems to me that Scotland may have a few less provinces after this war.

Also what will happen with the Irish and Slavery? Will it be better or worse?

I don't know about less provinces but it sounds like its going to have a rough time. Hopefully Charles will be defeated as that gives the best chance of stability. If he wins in Scotland, since he also claims the English throne this will prompt a Leveller invasion.

It sounds like it's going to be significantly worse for the Irish. Presuming they win the English will bring some peace but its going to be at a much heavier cost than OTL, if the Levellers can get massed settlement.

I'm not sure if, in the short term at least the Levellers will be able to disposses so much of the Irish and its likely to lead to more heavy fighting. Can see a big move into the old Pale region and probably coastal parts of Munster and Ulster to secure the sea routes but suspect it would take more time to settled the rest, especially since the Irish would have to fight. It's possible, especially if they also get Scottish Protestant settlers but would be very bloody.

One result could be that a lot of the Irish, faced with such a position, do at least token conversion. [Or at least this would be token at 1st but after a generation or two a lot might be genuine converts]. A lot would depend on how their treated by the government and English settlers. If treated with mistrust and caution then many will be less than loyal given a chance. [Basically does England make the same mistake as Spain did with its forced converts from Judaism and Islam?]

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

Seems to me that Scotland may have a few less provinces after this war.

Also what will happen with the Irish and Slavery? Will it be better or worse?

I don't know about less provinces but it sounds like its going to have a rough time. Hopefully Charles will be defeated as that gives the best chance of stability. If he wins in Scotland, since he also claims the English throne this will prompt a Leveller invasion.

It sounds like it's going to be significantly worse for the Irish. Presuming they win the English will bring some peace but its going to be at a much heavier cost than OTL, if the Levellers can get massed settlement.

I'm not sure if, in the short term at least the Levellers will be able to disposses so much of the Irish and its likely to lead to more heavy fighting. Can see a big move into the old Pale region and probably coastal parts of Munster and Ulster to secure the sea routes but suspect it would take more time to settled the rest, especially since the Irish would have to fight. It's possible, especially if they also get Scottish Protestant settlers but would be very bloody.

One result could be that a lot of the Irish, faced with such a position, do at least token conversion. [Or at least this would be token at 1st but after a generation or two a lot might be genuine converts]. A lot would depend on how their treated by the government and English settlers. If treated with mistrust and caution then many will be less than loyal given a chance. [Basically does England make the same mistake as Spain did with its forced converts from Judaism and Islam?]

Steve
As Steve says, the jointly-controlled provinces won't specifically go to either nation and will keep the status-quo. The fight against Charles II is going to be a long and grueling one for Scotland, however the Scottish will just-about manage to keep the English out.

The Irish position will be worse off, and the English do in fact win. However I'm not going to say anymore as it would spoil a few plans I've got for Ireland. All I will say is in the Pale there'll be a lot of conversions, English settlers and Anglo-Irish converted natives. While in Ulster the violence is going to be immense, more-so than just in the Pale.

[MerryPrankster]

A longer Carolingian war instead of various stomped-on Risings?

Interesting.

Keep up the good work.

[TheNordicBrit]

1650

January

- The Siege of Aberdeen properly begins as the town is blockaded by Carolinian troops. More reserves enter the Highlands from Catholic Europe and number around 4000 men, however they are at least half-a-month away from Charles II's main body of troops. By now the Carolinian Army had reached a number of around 27,000 men, while the Henrican troops numbered around 31,000 troops, having barely grown from volunteers and people whom had been forced into service along the way.

- In England the Leveller Parliament passes further reforms, such as abolishing tithes. Many Conservatives grumble however they are either ignored or some are even bribed to keep quiet over the matter. A bill is also passed stating that when/if the the problem of Charles II is eliminated in Scotland, the New Model Army would be cut to a size of 50,000 men that would be fully paid, of whom 75% would be located in Ireland. Thereafter when/if the Irish are quelled the numbers will be brought down to 30,000 men, of whom 33% would be located in Ireland enacting the 'Connaught Plan'.

February

- During the Siege of Aberdeen another outbreak of the bubonic plague occurred. Around a fifth of the population die this time, rather than the quarter whom suffered from it in 1647. However the town was now severely depopulated and the attackers managed to finally break into the town and sack it. By this time the reinforcements had made their way to the Carolinian army which bolstered its numbers to 30,000 (they'd lost men themselves to the plague and through fighting).

- The Henrican army heard news of the capture of Aberdeen about 2 days before they would've reached it. The army was in a mild-state of disarray. The commander didn't know where they might strike next, however he believed the correct course of action was to double-back to the original town that was to be attacked, Dundee.

- The Leveller Parliament begins on debate as to when the next elections should be held. Many argue it should be in the next few months, while others argue that until the revolts in Ireland had been put down and the Stuart threats to England/Scotland had been destroyed would the Leveller Parliament dissolve itself. The debate raged on for a week, though the final vote held that until the threats had been gotten rid off then the Leveller Parliament would stay on. The pregnancy of Princess Mary (wife of William II of orange) was ignored for the time being as no child had yet been born.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

I knew the military burden under the Commonwealth was supposed to be pretty high but didn't realise that it was that high. I.e. the plan is to reduce the NMA to 50k troops. How many are there at this point please?

It sounds like Scotland is in for a rough time as well. Aberdeen falling and more foreign aid reaching the Carolinian forces. I'm wondering at what point either Scotland or England will suggest some forces move north as neither government what a Carolinian success. Although probably not unless/until there's another success for them.

The other thing that might occur however could be some naval support. If part of the English fleet seeks to patrol enemy held areas, to try and prevent further external reinforcement and them moving forces and supply by coastal waters. [Although the fleet was still fairly rudimentary in its ability to maintain itself on station for lengths of time so could be of limited impact]. It might however send a message, to Edinburgh that London is offering support and other to foreign enemies to keep out.

Steve

[imperialaquila]

What's happening to the colonies? Granted, they aren't very important yet, but they are producing a few trade goods(tobacco, lumber) that could be a much-needed boost in income for the Parliament.

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

I knew the military burden under the Commonwealth was supposed to be pretty high but didn't realise that it was that high. I.e. the plan is to reduce the NMA to 50k troops. How many are there at this point please?

I don't know exact numbers, however IOTL the Battle of Preston had around 20,000 troops on the Parliamentarian side (this was in the Second Civil War), and in Ireland around 53,000 troops fought overall. So I'd say around 65,000 IOTL, though perhaps there were more or maybe less. ITTL there are a lot of troops obviously in Ireland, many left over from the previous Civil War and many that are in the dully ruled parts of Scotland. Thus I'd say around 60-65,000 ITTL.

It sounds like Scotland is in for a rough time as well. Aberdeen falling and more foreign aid reaching the Carolinian forces. I'm wondering at what point either Scotland or England will suggest some forces move north as neither government what a Carolinian success. Although probably not unless/until there's another success for them.

Well the two sides (Henricans and Carolinians) will have a large face-off in the next update, that's pretty much all I'm going to say - Other than the Highlands is going to be rather dystopian.

The other thing that might occur however could be some naval support. If part of the English fleet seeks to patrol enemy held areas, to try and prevent further external reinforcement and them moving forces and supply by coastal waters. [Although the fleet was still fairly rudimentary in its ability to maintain itself on station for lengths of time so could be of limited impact]. It might however send a message, to Edinburgh that London is offering support and other to foreign enemies to keep out.

Steve
The English navy will be highly useful in the putting down of the Carolinian Uprising, it'll be used to halt foreign aid but also to prevent any escape for the Carolinians, this will be important when you consider future events also. This will mean the English Navy will grow with its importance in the putting down of the revolt, and when two 'certain' sides finally come to blows it'll be better than IOTL.
What's happening to the colonies? Granted, they aren't very important yet, but they are producing a few trade goods(tobacco, lumber) that could be a much-needed boost in income for the Parliament.
The colonies for now aren't that important as you say, and in fact for a while they will even less important as many colonists there will move back to England and used as settlers in Ireland. However in the future (if this TL gets that far) the colonies will be very important with its economy and the Royalist attitude the Southern colonies will have now.

[stevep]

I don't know exact numbers, however IOTL the Battle of Preston had around 20,000 troops on the Parliamentarian side (this was in the Second Civil War), and in Ireland around 53,000 troops fought overall. So I'd say around 65,000 IOTL, though perhaps there were more or maybe less. ITTL there are a lot of troops obviously in Ireland, many left over from the previous Civil War and many that are in the dully ruled parts of Scotland. Thus I'd say around 60-65,000 ITTL.

Bloody hell. There were that many English troops in Ireland:eek: That's almost up to continental levels, or probably even higher by this time after the 30 years war.

Well the two sides (Henricans and Carolinians) will have a large face-off in the next update, that's pretty much all I'm going to say - Other than the Highlands is going to be rather dystopian.

Well if the highlands are going to be dystopic [or more so than usual;)] that gives a strong hint as to how that face-off goes.

The English navy will be highly useful in the putting down of the Carolinian Uprising, it'll be used to halt foreign aid but also to prevent any escape for the Carolinians, this will be important when you consider future events also. This will mean the English Navy will grow with its importance in the putting down of the revolt, and when two 'certain' sides finally come to blows it'll be better than IOTL.

That sounds rather ominous. Although given that in the next couple of decades OTL we fight the Spanish, Dutch and French it gives a wide range of options. Hopefully it doesn't mean what I initially thought and we have an Anglo-Scottish barny.

The colonies for now aren't that important as you say, and in fact for a while they will even less important as many colonists there will move back to England and used as settlers in Ireland. However in the future (if this TL gets that far) the colonies will be very important with its economy and the Royalist attitude the Southern colonies will have now.

Their not greatly important at this point and are predominantly royalist except for the NE I believe. I would be a bit surprised if many wanted to go to Ireland and given that the later dominance of the east coast is still far from certain I suspect it wouldn't be in England's interest [I nearly wrote Britain there;)] to weaken them too much.

However a Leveller Parliament could be potentially awkward for the colonies. [At least if the 1770's are anything to go by]. They might well want both greater equality - which would undermine the powerful economic elites - and also possibly it having some representation in the London Parliament.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

Bloody hell. There were that many English troops in Ireland:eek: That's almost up to continental levels, or probably even higher by this time after the 30 years war.

I know, a large number. However I got it from Wikipedia thus you could argue it's wrong. However I'm going with that number.

Well if the highlands are going to be dystopic [or more so than usual;)] that gives a strong hint as to how that face-off goes.

A very strong hint yes ;)

That sounds rather ominous. Although given that in the next couple of decades OTL we fight the Spanish, Dutch and French it gives a wide range of options. Hopefully it doesn't mean what I initially thought and we have an Anglo-Scottish barny.

You'll have to wait and see, however for the immediate future English foreign relations will go relatively as per OTL.

Their not greatly important at this point and are predominantly royalist except for the NE I believe. I would be a bit surprised if many wanted to go to Ireland and given that the later dominance of the east coast is still far from certain I suspect it wouldn't be in England's interest [I nearly wrote Britain there;)] to weaken them too much.

However a Leveller Parliament could be potentially awkward for the colonies. [At least if the 1770's are anything to go by]. They might well want both greater equality - which would undermine the powerful economic elites - and also possibly it having some representation in the London Parliament.

Steve

Correct about the Royalists in the colonies. When I said colonists going back I meant that (as per IOTL) quite a few religious radicals would go back to England. However due to their shown hardiness (by going to the New World) they will be used as settlers in Ireland.

[TheNordicBrit]

1650

March
- In response to the European support of the Carolinian revolt the English Navy sets up a blockade of the main landing points in the Highlands and Aberdeen. The navy proved to be a very useful asset for the Henrican troops as it halted further European troops/mercenaries from joining in the Scottish Civil War as well as stopping weapons and various resources from reaching the Carolinian troops. Also it allowed for the Leveller Parliament to see the possible weaknesses in the English Navy.

- The Leveller Parliament votes for the enlargement of the English Navy, and thus 5 new frigates were ordered for construction. These were called: Lilburne, Cromwell, Ireton, Essex and Fairfax. The prefix used by the English Republic was ERS, simply the English Republican Ship.

April
- The Henrican and Carolinian troops finally clashed in the Battle of Dundee. The battle lasted for around a day and by the end the Henrican troops emerged victorious. The Carolinian army of 30,000 troops suffered 9000 casualties, of whom 3000 were killed. Alongside this around 8000 were captured by the Henrican force. However the Henrican troops also suffered casualties, around 5000 of their 30,000 strong army. 1000 of these had died.

- The Carolinian troops retreated en masse, however when they reached Aberdeen they found the town to be blockaded by the English and thus had no chance of escape. The army retreated further, however along the way both Charles 'II' died from a severe illness. Thus Prince Rupert went about wreaking havoc in the Highlands of Scotland, he took up a 'scorched earth' tactic, in which he'd have the army he controlled destroy any land/towns they came across. This led to major rebellions within his own army, however Rupert promised that land owned by any of his troops would be spared. Thus the army he controlled mostly went along with his policy.

- The Henrican troops followed the Carolinians up, and were shocked by what they found as they went due to Rupert's new policy. They found thousands had been massacred or left homeless in the wake of Rupert's army. The Henrican's had no idea that Charles 'II' had in fact died however and believed that the Lowlands were still threatened by the Carolinian troops.

- The English navy puts a complete halt on all reinforcements/aid that's going to the Carolinian troops. While tensions increase with Continental Europe this is simply a risk the Leveller Parliament must take, as they cannot risk a Carolinian Scotland.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

One question in terms of where the foreign support is coming from? While all the catholic powers and many of the Protestant ones will be hostile to the English republic and a number hostile to the Scots effectively decided which Stuart would be their king their not a monolithic bloc. Especially the French and Spanish who are still at war, until 1659 OTL and bitter rivals. As such I would suspect that Charles gained support from one of those powers but that would tend to make the other hostile to him, even if not openly so. Whichever one would also likely earn the enmity of both England and Scotland. [While rulers and politicians might be fairly flexible here the general population would have some say and if one particular nation was widely detested then it would have diplomatic implications.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

One question in terms of where the foreign support is coming from? While all the catholic powers and many of the Protestant ones will be hostile to the English republic and a number hostile to the Scots effectively decided which Stuart would be their king their not a monolithic bloc. Especially the French and Spanish who are still at war, until 1659 OTL and bitter rivals. As such I would suspect that Charles gained support from one of those powers but that would tend to make the other hostile to him, even if not openly so. Whichever one would also likely earn the enmity of both England and Scotland. [While rulers and politicians might be fairly flexible here the general population would have some say and if one particular nation was widely detested then it would have diplomatic implications.

Steve
The foreign aid is mainly coming from France, however this is mainly in the form of resources. The men that are going to help the Carolinian troops are mainly volunteers, some are French volunteers while many are in fact Irish escapees since 1641 whom wish to have some revenge on England. These men are merely being transported by the French to Scotland, while the resources are actually from the French government. You're right though, this will cause a lot of bad-blood between the French and English which will effect future relations quite a bit.

[TheNordicBrit]

Just a little map giving you Rupert's route in Scotland. The ships represent major towns that are being blockaded, the explosion symbols represent towns that were sacked by Rupert and his army and the castle symbol over Inverness represents where Rupert will eventually set-up a defense against the incoming Henrican army, even though Inverness is blockaded he doesn't have much choice.

P.s. An update will be coming soon.

[TheNordicBrit]

1650

May
- The Carolinian troops finally make it back to the site of their first victory, Inverness. The Carolinian troops proceed to loot the town, and then move onto Inverness Castle. They meet up with the guards of the castle who attempt to repel the Carolinian troops, however the 'siege' of the castle lasted merely a day as the troops were morally broken, and allowed the Carolinians into the castle. By the time the Henrican troops reached Inverness the Carolinian's had set up good defences around Inverness and especially in the castle in which Prince Rupert was hiding.

- Along the way to Inverness the Henrican troops heard of the death of Charles 'II'. They both rejoiced and wept at the death of Charles, for while he was the enemy he was still royalty. However this death hardened the Henrican's resolve whom marched onwards to Inverness, when they got their they found the town had been pillaged and a strong defence set up around it. However the Henrican commander, David Leslie, knew that the resolve of the Carolinians must be broken and thus he set up a simple siege of the town and waited for the surrender.

- The Scottish Parliament caught wind of the death of Charles 'II' the Pretender, and they rejoiced that the Carolinians must accept King Henry I as the true King of Scotland. However among many of the previous supporters of Charles 'II' they believed that King Henry I was illegally King from the beginning and thus the Scots Parliament had in fact relinquished any claim he had to the Scottish and English monarchy. Though here the faction split into three sides, one side claimed that as per normal succession rules Mary, Princess Royal and Princess of Orange was now Queen Mary II of Scotland, another side argued that in fact the crown should now pass to the sister of Charles I, Elizabeth whom would become Elizabeth I of Scotland. Lastly another faction (mainly made up of Catholics) disregarded these pretenders and argued that Princess Henrietta (last daughter of Charles I) was in fact now Queen Henrietta I of Scotland.

- The Leveller Parliament has finally drawn up a plan of the future-settlements in Ireland, rather than just be slap-dash about it. The first call-of-action was to have the Catholic Irish in the Pale be forcibly evicted to Connaught, however in an extra note the Parliament wrote that (converted into Modern English) "the movement of the Irish is paramount to victory in Ireland, if necessary the soldiers in Ireland may use any scare tactic necessary in order to make room for the incoming English settlers. However the area around and in Dublin must be totally depopulated, as it must be completely English in this location. The evicted Protestant Dubliners will be relocated mainly in Ulster Plantations if they swear loyalty to the English Republic, however if not they will be moved to Connaught as well". Alongside this the census of 1649 allowed the Leveller Parliament to gather accurate numbers of whom could be moved to Ireland, in fact the Levellers used their favourite propaganda technique and had numerous leaflets and pamphlets distributed among the more densely populated/poorer areas of England in order to encourage Englishmen to voluntarily settle in Ireland.

- Already in Ireland it had been estimated that around 10% of the population under English control had been forcibly evicted, however for the moment in Ireland this isn't the main priority as the war is still going on. It's estimated that after the end of the war the Irish evictions will speed up by a factor of around 10. A third of the 10% evicted had come from Dublin, which was being severely depopulated even before the orders by the English parliament had reached the New Model Army in Ireland.

- Alongside this under pressure from Admiral Robert Blake the Leveller Parliament orders the laying down of even more frigates, about 8 more. The names include ERS Rainsborough, London, Sexby, Blake, Hampshire, Pym, Westminster and Freedom.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

I don't know if they would move a lot of the fairly limited number of Protestants in the Dublin area. There are a lot of what were known as the 'Old English', settlers from back to Norman times who had some identity with England but had stayed Catholic. I did read once that Cromwell made some attempts to compromise with them [and possibly other Catholics] suggesting they keep a lot of their customs and policies but ditch the link with Rome and the Papacy so that they were no longer seen as loyal to foreign elements. This didn't gain much acceptance but I'm hoping that a willingness to let them stay for at least token conversion will avoid moving them en-mass. Otherwise there's going to be a hell of a lot of understandably resentful people in Connaught who are going to welcome any foreign intervention and it's going to take a while to get the eastern regions re-settled by English settlers.

Technically what you're doing is legal [and possibly not uncommon] by the standards of the time and to a degree sanctioned by the Peace of Westphalia, which argued that the faith of the ruler was the faith the population had to accept or leave. However it's going to cause a lot of problems with logistics of moving so many and keeping the dispossed where their sent. Basically you're doing what the US did in the 19thC and we all know how many problems they had with keeping the Indians on the reservations. Furthermore, while the recent civil wars have been bad for Ireland the imbalance in population and technology/organisation is markedly less than the Indians faced. As such it will be possible provided no foreign interference but it will be very costly in both men and money.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

I don't know if they would move a lot of the fairly limited number of Protestants in the Dublin area. There are a lot of what were known as the 'Old English', settlers from back to Norman times who had some identity with England but had stayed Catholic. I did read once that Cromwell made some attempts to compromise with them [and possibly other Catholics] suggesting they keep a lot of their customs and policies but ditch the link with Rome and the Papacy so that they were no longer seen as loyal to foreign elements. This didn't gain much acceptance but I'm hoping that a willingness to let them stay for at least token conversion will avoid moving them en-mass. Otherwise there's going to be a hell of a lot of understandably resentful people in Connaught who are going to welcome any foreign intervention and it's going to take a while to get the eastern regions re-settled by English settlers.

Technically what you're doing is legal [and possibly not uncommon] by the standards of the time and to a degree sanctioned by the Peace of Westphalia, which argued that the faith of the ruler was the faith the population had to accept or leave. However it's going to cause a lot of problems with logistics of moving so many and keeping the dispossed where their sent. Basically you're doing what the US did in the 19thC and we all know how many problems they had with keeping the Indians on the reservations. Furthermore, while the recent civil wars have been bad for Ireland the imbalance in population and technology/organisation is markedly less than the Indians faced. As such it will be possible provided no foreign interference but it will be very costly in both men and money.

Steve
I realize there are many 'Old English' there, these are more the people I mean by 'Protestants' alongside the actual Protestants there. We're going to see a large number of 'Old English' convert to Protestantism however as they'd rather be treated well than horrible moved to Connaught. Also when it comes to the actual moving it will in some cases be more lax.

And yes, there will be foreign interference as per OTL, however England now has a standing army alongside what will become a much-improved navy. And 10,000 troops will be kept in constant action in Ireland, which will mainly be centred around Connaught. But yes, there will be problems as there always will be, just because it's not a Cromwellian Commonwealth doesn't mean Utopia. It's going to be a long road ahead.

[TheNordicBrit]

1650

June
- In Scotland the Henrican government was gaining power through the division among the previous Carolinian supporters. While the various factions fought among themselves the loyal Henrican MPs began to assert itself in Scotland as the dominant force, and drew up the 'Highland Plans'. Due to the Catholicism and perceived anti-Henrican views in the Highlands the government believed that the place should be "purged" of all "sinners". Thus the Highland plans was created in order to help "purge" the land, it included ideas such as simply shipping thousands of Highlanders off to the Americas in an attempt to create a colony. However the problem with this was the lack of money, thus the government proposed that practically all the money of the unlucky Highlanders should be taken and used to pay for this colonial experiment. This idea was generally accepted as the best, and thus plans began to be drawn up of where the colonial expedition would land at.

- In Ireland the English forces win further battles, especially in Ulster and the Pale. Alongside this in the Pale a trickle of natives (mostly of Anglo-Irish descent) begin to go into discussions with the English military leaders stationed in the Pale about the future of the Pale and any possible converters/collaborators. The talks at first stall, however in the months to come with the support of the Leveller Parliament the collaborators would grow in numbers and the discussions would go along quite well.

- With the previous supporters of Charles 'II' being very split the factions begin to take some matters into their own hands. However while most simply caused small amount of unrest in the Highlands, the Marian supporters (Mary 'II' of Scotland) began to slowly migrate to the United Provinces. This occurred over a number of months but would have implications in the Netherlands in a number of months due to their militarism.

July
- The Siege of Inverness finally ends when Prince Rupert is forced to go into open battle with the henrican troops. Many of his men simply surrender as they just wish to go back to their families and villages, however the troops that didn't fought with an awesome ferocity. The casualties on the Henrican side were high, however eventually the "battle of attrition" ended and Prince Rupert surrendered to the Henrican forces. The ordinary troops were simply punished through harsh fines, while the leaders (except Prince Rupert) of the revolt were put to death. The Scots Parliament wished to punish Rupert, however after a request from the Princes brother Charles I Louis to allow Rupert be sent back to the Palatinate the Scots government simply washed their hands of the man and allowed him passage back to his brothers electorate.

- Many of the Marian men that are trickling into the United Provinces support Queen Mary 'II's' husband William II during the tensions between him and Holland and Amsterdam.

[TheNordicBrit]

*Bump*

Any interest in this still?

[Blackadder mk 2]

*Bump*

Any interest in this still?

Yes but we need updates or we lose interest.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Definitely still interested. :)

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

1650

August
- Peace finally descended upon Great Britain, there were no more uprisings or Stuart invasions imminent on the mainland. Thus when it was proven that Charles 'II's body was indeed the pretender King the Leveller Parliament set about cutting the army numbers. Over the course of the next month around 15,000 soldiers were paid and then allowed out of the military. Most went back to their homes around the country and were content with the money, though scarred by the war. Some in the army complained that the government didn't care for the military, however due to the payments to the troops going out of service not many complained.

- Alongside the New Model Army cuts thousands in the army were sent off to fight in Ireland. Recent English victories had persuaded the Leveller Parliament to continue with the war there, much of Ireland was under English control and hundreds more Irish were being moved off their land. However due to Leveller impatience they began the English settling of what had previously been the Pale, by the end of the month around 120 settlers had gone over in the safest areas.

- With the pacifying of England, the Leveller Parliament begins to draw up plans for elections to be held in the next month. The Levellers start a massive propaganda experiment in which thousands of pamphlets go out to the electorate to encourage the re-election of Leveller 'candidates', many historians argue these pamphlets had a huge effect on whom the new electorate voted in.

- In Scotland the Parliament finalizes their debates on a suitable colonial location in the New World, while many argue the Caribbean would be a useful area to expand to the majority argue for Port Desire. This is because in North America the English, French and Dutch hold the monopoly and power over land, which would greatly decrease the possibility of a surviving colony there. Central and most of South America are controlled by the Spanish whom are one of the most powerful European powers still, however the area of Patagonia is relatively unsettled. Thus the Scottish government chose Port Desire as the location for a large scale settlement to occur.

September
- The Leveller Parliament holds the first election since 1640. 350 MPs were elected into Parliament, of whom around 120 were Levellers. This was a huge success for the Levellers and proved that propaganda through pamphleteering could win entire constituencies, around 60 MPs voted in were secret-Royalists. Around 65 MPs voted in were religious radicals (such as Fifth Monarchists, Quakers etc). The last 105 MPs were known as the Moderates or Roundheads, these were the Conservatives whom disliked the radicalism that had gone on during the Leveller Parliaments rule, though they didn't really favour a monarchy anymore either. This was a success for the Radicals whom held 185 seats in Parliament, of whom 120 were Levellers.

- Next came the election of the Lord President, whom was elected by Parliament. Certain candidates put themselves forward. The list gives the candidates and the number of votes they got:

John Lilburne - 128 votes
Charles Worsley - 97 votes
George Monck - 71 votes
Thomas Harrison - 54 votes

Thus we see Parliament with a small majority of Levellers MPs alongside a Leveller Lord President.

[Blackadder mk 2]

Scottish Patagonia?

English parliament being diverse?

This is why I look at this TL?

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Interesting developments. The Scots could find out that the reason that part of S America is relative unsettled [by Europeans] is that the locals are pretty determined to stay independent. However they could make themselves useful if their careful and diplomatic with the locals. The climate should definitely suit them better than Darien and less problems with disease so it's probably got a better chance of success. Although it's a hell of a long way away and once the Spanish find out they will seek to destroy the colony.

A hung parliament could be interesting in England. The Levellers are the largest grouping and with the Radicals have a majority but it's not a large one and I would suspect the Radicals especially are probably a fairly diverse group. As such it could be awkward keeping them together when difficult decisions need to be made. A lot would depend on how coherent the 'Roundheads' are as if they act as a unit and find common ground with the royalists on a issue it could get tight.

The danger is not possible as much the government being defeated as it doing what the Roundheads did OTL. I.e. using its continued domination of the army to impose it's will on a hostile parliament. Hopefully that can be avoided else the republic is going to have an uncertain future.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

1650

October
- As the Irish Confederate Wars began to feel the effect of the influx of thousands of English troops there were thousands more Irishmen being forced off their land. By the end of October the English had practically fully secured Ulster and the Pale, and another influx of around 200 settlers had been placed into Ireland taking the lands of the previous Irish owners. This was largely in Ulster (where many previous Scottish Protestant settlers were being left alone as well), however a small number were being sent to the Pale.

- The newly formed English parliament begins to look at both England's domestic and foreign policy. Many of the new MPs, especially the Royalists and Moderates, argue in favour of the creation of a second chamber that could act as a check on Parliament. The Levellers heavily disagree, while the Radicals are split around 50/50 on the issue. The option of a second-chamber will be a source of discontent within Parliament for years to come.

- While in foreign affairs the Parliament again was rather split. Some in Parliament demanded something must be done about the Dutch monopoly on trade. Others argued for a war with Spain through support of the Catalan Revolt. However no consensus is made as of yet other than to attempt to make trading treaties with Portugal, Denmark and Sweden.

- In Scotland the first 130 'settlers' are taken from the Highlands to begin their long journey to Port Desire. The assets of all involved have been taken by the Scots government also and are slowly given to Henrican supporters such as David Leslie.

- A mild crisis breaks out in England and Scotland, however it was not a domestic issue, it was a foreign issue. William II presses on with his attack on Amsterdam with around 10,000 Dutch forces and 1000 Scottish forces. William II managed to easily take Amsterdam and forced its regents to accept a larger army than the Treaty of Münster actually allowed. This put the Republicans of the Dutch down for a while longer as William II's powerbase had stayed at its previous size by these actions.

November
- Mary, previously Princess Royal, bears her husband William II a child whom is also named William. Suddenly many of the previous Carolinians whom split declares this child as William III and II of England and Scotland. Many unite under the Willamite banner, and in private William II pledges to get his son on the thrones of England and Scotland "by any means necessary".

- In the English Parliament many of the moderates are pushed to accept a change in policy towards the Dutch due to the increasing power of the Dutch statholder and Prince. The Parliament passes the first Navigation Act [1].

[1] - Same Act as per OTL.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Things are stewing nicely. I was thinking the prime threat would be one of the Catholic powers but it sounds like William of Orange and the Dutch will not only provide incentives in terms of trade but also political. If/when his plans for his son leak out that should also keep England and Scotland friendly as the governments of both states are threatened. [Just realised I was getting my Williams and Mary's mixed up. Thinking this was OTL William of Orange - but that's actually the new son. Since both father and son were named William and married a Mary Stewart:confused:].

The figures for the emigration to Ireland sound pretty low if the republic is actually seeking to displace the Irish, or is this only the very early stages? Also, since relations with Scotland are pretty good and the Scots formed the majority of the setters in Ulster OTL what is the situation TTL. Is there Scots interest in settling in Ireland and what is the English attitude to this?

Steve

1650

October
- As the Irish Confederate Wars began to feel the effect of the influx of thousands of English troops there were thousands more Irishmen being forced off their land. By the end of October the English had practically fully secured Ulster and the Pale, and another influx of around 200 settlers had been placed into Ireland taking the lands of the previous Irish owners. This was largely in Ulster (where many previous Scottish Protestant settlers were being left alone as well), however a small number were being sent to the Pale.

- The newly formed English parliament begins to look at both England's domestic and foreign policy. Many of the new MPs, especially the Royalists and Moderates, argue in favour of the creation of a second chamber that could act as a check on Parliament. The Levellers heavily disagree, while the Radicals are split around 50/50 on the issue. The option of a second-chamber will be a source of discontent within Parliament for years to come.

- While in foreign affairs the Parliament again was rather split. Some in Parliament demanded something must be done about the Dutch monopoly on trade. Others argued for a war with Spain through support of the Catalan Revolt. However no consensus is made as of yet other than to attempt to make trading treaties with Portugal, Denmark and Sweden.

- In Scotland the first 130 'settlers' are taken from the Highlands to begin their long journey to Port Desire. The assets of all involved have been taken by the Scots government also and are slowly given to Henrican supporters such as David Leslie.

- A mild crisis breaks out in England and Scotland, however it was not a domestic issue, it was a foreign issue. William II presses on with his attack on Amsterdam with around 10,000 Dutch forces and 1000 Scottish forces. William II managed to easily take Amsterdam and forced its regents to accept a larger army than the Treaty of Münster actually allowed. This put the Republicans of the Dutch down for a while longer as William II's powerbase had stayed at its previous size by these actions.

November
- Mary, previously Princess Royal, bears her husband William II a child whom is also named William. Suddenly many of the previous Carolinians whom split declares this child as William III and II of England and Scotland. Many unite under the Willamite banner, and in private William II pledges to get his son on the thrones of England and Scotland "by any means necessary".

- In the English Parliament many of the moderates are pushed to accept a change in policy towards the Dutch due to the increasing power of the Dutch statholder and Prince. The Parliament passes the first Navigation Act [1].

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

Things are stewing nicely. I was thinking the prime threat would be one of the Catholic powers but it sounds like William of Orange and the Dutch will not only provide incentives in terms of trade but also political. If/when his plans for his son leak out that should also keep England and Scotland friendly as the governments of both states are threatened. [Just realised I was getting my Williams and Mary's mixed up. Thinking this was OTL William of Orange - but that's actually the new son. Since both father and son were named William and married a Mary Stewart:confused:].

The figures for the emigration to Ireland sound pretty low if the republic is actually seeking to displace the Irish, or is this only the very early stages? Also, since relations with Scotland are pretty good and the Scots formed the majority of the setters in Ulster OTL what is the situation TTL. Is there Scots interest in settling in Ireland and what is the English attitude to this?

Steve
Well don't forget IOTL Cromwell led a very pragmatic foreign policy allying himself with Catholic France against Catholic Spain, we'll see this pragmatism come through again with a proper Parliament and debates. And ah yes, I too used to get confused over the William and Mary's.

And the settling of Ireland is still going quite slowly as the war over there isn't finished yet. Once we see the war finished there will be much larger numbers of settlers, for now though it's more just getting some of the best and safest land under English control (however small this control may be), thus taking more power away from the NMA which if it simply controlled the land may make demands - Unlikely but still a potential thorn in Parliaments side.

[stevep]

Well don't forget IOTL Cromwell led a very pragmatic foreign policy allying himself with Catholic France against Catholic Spain, we'll see this pragmatism come through again with a proper Parliament and debates. And ah yes, I too used to get confused over the William and Mary's.

And the settling of Ireland is still going quite slowly as the war over there isn't finished yet. Once we see the war finished there will be much larger numbers of settlers, for now though it's more just getting some of the best and safest land under English control (however small this control may be), thus taking more power away from the NMA which if it simply controlled the land may make demands - Unlikely but still a potential thorn in Parliaments side.

TheNordicBrit

One answer with the NMA when it comes to cutting it back, if/when external circumstances allow might be the old Roman approach of veteran colonies. Gives reliable settlers with combat experience to hold key areas and if the lands pretty good, which goes for a fair bit of eastern and northern Ireland it should be popular. Will tend to filter out the more reliable and responsible characters possibly so slightly increasing the chance of disorder from the NMA. However if it's kept busy and also the veterans can possibly be recalled along with new recruits to help keep control of any rogue groups.

Also, since we have a leveller government, unless that changes, the army isn't likely to be politically radical. Possibly economically so, with troops demanding higher wages and better conditions - a less promising example Rome set. However could also set this as a pattern with new recruits doing x years service then getting land. [Although the problem with this is it requires continual expansion].

Note that while repulsive to modern values such a policy could be very successful in this time period.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

One answer with the NMA when it comes to cutting it back, if/when external circumstances allow might be the old Roman approach of veteran colonies. Gives reliable settlers with combat experience to hold key areas and if the lands pretty good, which goes for a fair bit of eastern and northern Ireland it should be popular. Will tend to filter out the more reliable and responsible characters possibly so slightly increasing the chance of disorder from the NMA. However if it's kept busy and also the veterans can possibly be recalled along with new recruits to help keep control of any rogue groups.

Also, since we have a leveller government, unless that changes, the army isn't likely to be politically radical. Possibly economically so, with troops demanding higher wages and better conditions - a less promising example Rome set. However could also set this as a pattern with new recruits doing x years service then getting land. [Although the problem with this is it requires continual expansion].

Note that while repulsive to modern values such a policy could be very successful in this time period.

Steve
That was certainly one of my plans for after the irish Confederate Wars have ended, as I've previously stated the NMA will be shrunk by around 20,000 after the Irish War ends, and many of these troops will in fact be given land in Ireland. These men whom are in the army and settle in ireland will effectively be a militia in the rougher areas (such as in the Pale and in Southern Ireland), their loyalty to parliament will hopefully keep them in check but they will act as a local town militia to be called up in case of irish unrest. They won't be an official military body however. This won't happen for a year-or-so anyway though.

[TheNordicBrit]

1650

December
- In France their are demands made to Regent Anne of Austria to go to war with the United Provinces whom have ignored the demand in the Treaty of Münster for a smaller army. She is reluctant to go to war with the Dutch as well as continuing the Franco-Spanish War on her own, however she also knows that Anglo-Dutch relations are very sour. Though supporting an English declaration of war on the Dutch would mean recognizing the Republic of England.

- The Scots government came across a problem now, they were going to take large numbers of Highlanders and place them in Patagonia, however this would leave a lot of the Highlands seriously underpopulated. Therefore the Scottish needed to find settlers from the Lowlands to replace the population of the Highlands. The Parliament debated where they should gather settlers from, and eventually they came up with an idea that would satisfy the English too. The Lowland settlers would come from the dually-controlled border territories, in which some of the Scots population had been resentful of English control.

- Some of the first Border-settlers had been forcibly evicted from their homes, and around 80 were sent to the Highlands to make up for the first group of settlers that had been sent to Patagonia. However about 12 of the Lowland settlers died before the year was out, this was due to them not being used to the cold temperatures of the Highlands. The Scottish Parliament took no notice of these deaths however, and began to forcibly evict another 100 Lowlanders by the end of the month.

- In Ireland there is another influx of English settlers of around 400 settlers, of whom 100 are previous settlers in the Americas that went back to England. Alongside this talks begin between New Model Army representatives and parliament over the decrease in troop numbers after the Irish Confederate Wars, and what will happen to the troops whom are to be let go.

1651

January
- Another group of Highlanders have their assets taken and are forced to go on the settling expedition, this time the Scots number some 250 settlers whom head for Port Desire. Many in the Scots Parliament want this expedition to wait until word comes from the previous one, however the Regent Archibald Campbell puts these arguments down and orders the settlers continue on their voyage.

-The first sign of resistance occurs in the dually-owned 'Border Territories', as more Scots are being uprooted to fill in the gap in the Highlands some Scots begin to demand these forced-settlements stop. The Scottish government ignores them and the Scottish Army continues to force them out. However there are reports of some very small skirmishes between the army and 'settlers'.

- In Ireland the New Model Army makes good headway against the Irish still fighting, alongside this the Pale and Ulster have been totally pacified. In the Pale the process of 'Anglicization' begins as many previous citizens swear loyalty to the English Republic and 'convert' to Protestantism. In Ulster a trickle of Scots Presbyterians also continue to settle there, worrying they'll be forced into the Highlands instead. Also another batch of settlers are sent to the Pale (around 210).

- The English and French begin secret negotiations. While the young Republic wants recognition on the continent the French want help in a possible Franco-Dutch War. The talks go on for weeks as neither side can come to a full agreement over any kind of peace treaty after a war involving the Dutch.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Interesting. I think the Scot's policy seems rather short sighted.

a) populate this distant colony with people who had limited loyalty to you before you uprooted them from their homes.

b) Seek to replace them in the Highlands with loyal supporters who however don't want to go there.

c) In the process weaken you're presence and support in a border area under joint administration with a neighbour.

At worse Scotland could:
a) Lose its presence in Patagonia because the settlers, including many Catholics, prefer Spanish rule.

b) Alienate their core base supporters by forced re-settlement in areas they consider barren and backward.

c) Persuade at least some of the border areas their better off under English rule because their safe from arbitrary deportation and possibly have greater general political and economic options.

Interesting that we still get a Franco-English alliance against the Netherlands but a couple of decades earlier and with France recognising a Protestant republic rather than aiding a king seeking to re-impose autocratic rule.;)

Also, since France is still fighting Spain at this point could it see a Dutch-Spanish de-facto alliance? That would be weird as the Spanish have finally accepted Dutch independence and there are probably still some border disputes between Dutch and Spanish Netherlands. As they say about political bedfellows.:)

One possible butterfly. If the alliance between France and England comes about and the two get on decently could if affect Louis XIV when he comes to full power? Thinking possibly the Edict of Nantes doesn't get revoked or at least he's not so murderous about it. Although if it still happens there could be a lot of fleeing Huguenots settling in Ireland.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

Interesting. I think the Scot's policy seems rather short sighted.

a) populate this distant colony with people who had limited loyalty to you before you uprooted them from their homes.

b) Seek to replace them in the Highlands with loyal supporters who however don't want to go there.

c) In the process weaken you're presence and support in a border area under joint administration with a neighbour.

At worse Scotland could:
a) Lose its presence in Patagonia because the settlers, including many Catholics, prefer Spanish rule.

b) Alienate their core base supporters by forced re-settlement in areas they consider barren and backward.

c) Persuade at least some of the border areas their better off under English rule because their safe from arbitrary deportation and possibly have greater general political and economic options.

Interesting that we still get a Franco-English alliance against the Netherlands but a couple of decades earlier and with France recognising a Protestant republic rather than aiding a king seeking to re-impose autocratic rule.;)

Also, since France is still fighting Spain at this point could it see a Dutch-Spanish de-facto alliance? That would be weird as the Spanish have finally accepted Dutch independence and there are probably still some border disputes between Dutch and Spanish Netherlands. As they say about political bedfellows.:)

One possible butterfly. If the alliance between France and England comes about and the two get on decently could if affect Louis XIV when he comes to full power? Thinking possibly the Edict of Nantes doesn't get revoked or at least he's not so murderous about it. Although if it still happens there could be a lot of fleeing Huguenots settling in Ireland.

Steve
You're right, Scotland's policy is short-sighted at this point in time, which of course sometimes counties would suffer from. However to tackle some of your points.

a) Even if Scotland did lose its presence in Patagonia due to the Spanish don't forget that this colony is effectively being paid for by the Highlanders wealth that was stolen by the Scottish government, and it's an easy way of ridding an area that's just proven to be anti-Henrican of any rebels with the potential to get some wealth/prestige from a colony.

b) Now obviously this will be a problem in that these people will become alienated, but their overall loyalty will in future stop any potential revolution (at least for a while).

c) The issue of the Border Territories will come up in a while, thus I shall leave this pending until then.

And yes, the Franco-English Alliance will be a rather odd one, and you're right how now it's for a Republic rather than an autocratic King. Not only this but France will do this to halt OTLs William III of England regaining the Scots and English thrones, as a Prince of Orange with access to the wealth of Scotland, ireland and England would be a formidable opponent. Thus ironically we're going to see France try and stop a Restoration in England.

I hadn't really thought about that but yes, I guess that would make the Dutch and Spaniards technical allies, I'll give this some thought...

My feeling towards Louis XIV is much the same as c above, it'll come along in a little while and 'till then I'll keep my card close to my chest.

[TheNordicBrit]

1651

February
- By the end of February an estimate of around 560 people in the Pale have sworn loyalty to the English Republic, while not many for the moment not much emphasis is being placed on these conversions yet. Alongside this another 300 English settlers go to Ireland, primarily in the Pale now. This makes the 1000 settler mark passed since the beginning of the settling months ago, also the English Parliament passes an act banning the speaking of the Irish language in the Pale and Ulster. However this act leaves out Munster and Connaught due to these area having the most amount of anti-English hatred and thus Parliament doesn't wish to anger the Irish in those places any further.

- In the Border Territories the Scots being uprooted from their homes are beginning to properly fight back. There are stories of Scots troops being ambushed by a towns whole male population in attempts to keep them away from forcing them out of the town. However the superior Scottish military forces manage to keep the small trickle of Border settlers to the Highlands going.

- The first shipload of Highland settlers finally makes it to Patagonia. The ship touches ground at Port Desire and the Highlanders are soon bustled off the ship and forced to settle in the area. While they are forced to make do in the cold climate Port Desire is claimed as a Scottish Colony and is renamed 'Port Henry' after the young King of Scotland.

- The States of Holland were very resentful of having William II, Prince of Orange as the practical dictator of the United Provinces, and thus they sent emissaries to the Republic of England requesting help. These emissaries told Lord President Lilburne that in return for English support in getting power away from William II then the Dutch would recognize the Republic of England and would allow the Navigation Acts to exist without Dutch interference. This emissary even hinted towards some kind of union between the Dutch and English.

March
- In Ireland the English make enough gains in the south to successfully take Munster, alongside this through several minor amphibious attacks on the west coast Connaught is officially cut off from the outside. However the Irish aren't finished and they continue to fight on, especially in the occupied South where they deal out a costly guerrilla war on the English.

- In Port Henry the Highlanders make good headway at setting up a new life there, they've already began to fish the local waters as well as building a small village in the area of Port Desire.

- Lord President Lilburne continues discussions with the Dutch envoys to England over the possibility of an Anglo-Dutch Union. The two sides argue vehemently over it, Lilburne in favour while the Dutch are against this as they'd only gained their own independence some years before from Spain. At the same time French pressure begins to grow on England to go to war with the Dutch.

[MerryPrankster]

Interesting that we still get a Franco-English alliance against the Netherlands but a couple of decades earlier and with France recognising a Protestant republic rather than aiding a king seeking to re-impose autocratic rule.;)

Also, since France is still fighting Spain at this point could it see a Dutch-Spanish de-facto alliance? That would be weird as the Spanish have finally accepted Dutch independence and there are probably still some border disputes between Dutch and Spanish Netherlands. As they say about political bedfellows.:)

One possible butterfly. If the alliance between France and England comes about and the two get on decently could if affect Louis XIV when he comes to full power? Thinking possibly the Edict of Nantes doesn't get revoked or at least he's not so murderous about it. Although if it still happens there could be a lot of fleeing Huguenots settling in Ireland.

Steve

These are all very interesting.

Keeping the Edict of Nantes in place means Prussia and the American Colonies have lower populations, which will in turn generate other butterflies.

[MerryPrankster]

Why is there talk of a Anglo-Dutch union?

Yes, they're both republics (even with William II being a dictator), but that doesn't mean them becoming one government is a good idea.

[stevep]

These are all very interesting.

Keeping the Edict of Nantes in place means Prussia and the American Colonies have lower populations, which will in turn generate other butterflies.

MerryPrankster

Not only them but Britain which benefited considerably from the execdus of Huguenots from France.

If there is large scale English settlement in Ireland, which seems likely, that would also reduce the English settlement in the American colonies. Probably still going to be important in the longer run but may not be so dominant as OTL. [Especially with butterflies with the Dutch and possibly less conflict you might see New Amsterdam surviving, which would split the English colonies. Not to mention they will be English colonies so probably less Scots settling there, especially if Patagonia takes off.

I also agree I think a united English-Dutch republic is unlikely at this point. While they have points of common interest they are also rivals in several areas. Also, even with a more Puritan England there will probably be sectarian differences with the Dutch Calvinists. Not to mention the more broadly rounded English republic could have some differences with the more oligarchical Dutch who I think were dominated more by the richer merchant families? Also, given the wealth and population of the Netherlands at this point I'm not sure who would be the dominant part of any union.

I think it's an idea that might appear to some elements but the vast majority in both cases would probably oppose losing their hard won identity.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

Why is there talk of a Anglo-Dutch union?

Yes, they're both republics (even with William II being a dictator), but that doesn't mean them becoming one government is a good idea.
IOTL out of fear that William II would keep the army at a high and be a dictator the Dutch offered Cromwell a Union between the United Provinces and the Commonwealth. It's the same here, however the Dutch would rather not but if it means getting rid of the Orangists they're willing to. England would prefer to be in a Union with the Dutch because the trading problems would decrease (however they wouldn't disappear) and the United Provinces was one of the most powerful countries in Europe and was Protestant.

However after reading the comment below and in the other thread I'll probably not go ahead with it.
MerryPrankster

Not only them but Britain which benefited considerably from the execdus of Huguenots from France.

If there is large scale English settlement in Ireland, which seems likely, that would also reduce the English settlement in the American colonies. Probably still going to be important in the longer run but may not be so dominant as OTL. [Especially with butterflies with the Dutch and possibly less conflict you might see New Amsterdam surviving, which would split the English colonies. Not to mention they will be English colonies so probably less Scots settling there, especially if Patagonia takes off.

I also agree I think a united English-Dutch republic is unlikely at this point. While they have points of common interest they are also rivals in several areas. Also, even with a more Puritan England there will probably be sectarian differences with the Dutch Calvinists. Not to mention the more broadly rounded English republic could have some differences with the more oligarchical Dutch who I think were dominated more by the richer merchant families? Also, given the wealth and population of the Netherlands at this point I'm not sure who would be the dominant part of any union.

I think it's an idea that might appear to some elements but the vast majority in both cases would probably oppose losing their hard won identity.

Steve
Ah thank you. I think I won't go ahead with such a Union due to the religious and economic differences.

And the Edict of Nantes is still a little way off even IOTL from being ridden of, so we'll have to wait and see.

[Cylon_Number_14]

Just found this thread and added it to my subscriptions. I'm rather interested in seeing how far your (plausibly done) expulsion of the Irish can go. I looked at some maps, and was curious, does the "Connaught Plan" leave the Catholics with about a full third of the island or is it significantly smaller/larger than that? I understand that you'd want to be a bit vague so as to not write yourself into a corner, but I'm curious.

[stevep]

Just found this thread and added it to my subscriptions. I'm rather interested in seeing how far your (plausibly done) expulsion of the Irish can go. I looked at some maps, and was curious, does the "Connaught Plan" leave the Catholics with about a full third of the island or is it significantly smaller/larger than that? I understand that you'd want to be a bit vague so as to not write yourself into a corner, but I'm curious.

Cylon_Number_14

No expert but probably ~20-25% given that it's one of the 4 [or 5 counting Meath] Also there are restrictions on Catholic settlement [or at least land ownership] near the coasts. Furthermore it's one of the poorer parts of the country so it would probably be able to support less people than the eastern and northern regions.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

1651

April
- Eventually the English relent on their requests for an Anglo-Dutch Union. However secretly the English do agree to help the Republican Dutch in their efforts to take power away from the Dictoral William II.

- In the United Provinces the Republicans demand the army be reduced to the amount set out in Treaty of Münster. However the Prince of Orange refused to reduce his power base in the United Provinces even with English pressure on him to reduce the army. The mood in the Netherlands become tense and secretly both the Republicans and Orangists are building up military supplies.

- In Ireland Connaught is finally taken and Munster is pacified further when supplies are allowed to go to the natives again after the commanders worked out that the guerilla warfare was so intense due to people being forced into it.

- Another 340 settlers go to Ireland from England, and around another 250 'Palist's' convert and swear allegiance to England. However it is now that we see a large-scale operation undertaken in Ireland about the natives, with the New Model Army pillaging entire towns and the people of the town being forced out and being made to march to Connaught. The population of Galway increases by around 3000 by the end of the month.

May
- In the United Provinces the 'Orange Crisis' reaches breaking point. Forces under William II attempt to capture numerous Republicans who are vehemently arguing for the reduction of the army. However when he attempts to some militia manage to secure the escape of the Republicans. At first it seemed they may give way for William II, however they refuse and so William II argued his men to break the militia up. While it's not sure whom fired first the two forces clashed after shots were fired, the militia are broken up after 10 minutes. However this is seen as a formal act of war by the Orangists on the Republicans.

- Immediately after news of this reaches England an initial detachment of 5000 men are called up for deployment to the Netherlands. Alongside this the Navy (with all its newly built frigates) is set out to patrol the Dutch waters. Plans are made to capture Dutch colonies to take advantage of the weakened state the Dutch are in.

- After a storm in the Southern Atlantic the second settlers voyage was blown heavily off course. Eventually they smash onto an island, which after numerous checks are done they eventually believe to be 'Hawkins' Maidenland'[1] (specifically East Falkland). Their ship is totally inoperable and thus they begin a settlement where they crashed, they name it 'Charles Town' after the Kings Charles I & II. It is the first settlement on the Falkland Islands, as the islands were previously uninhabited. They also claim the islands for Scotland and rename the archipelago 'Nova Scotia'.

- The English proceed with sending settlers to Ireland as another 250 settlers are sent. Alongside this the Scottish migration to Ulster proceeds at a slower rate.

- In the Highlands a further 120 Border Settlers are resettled into the region. In the Border Territories there is much talk of some kind of revolt against Scots rule in favour of English rule due to the feeling that they'd be treated better if English, this is still a fledgling movement though it's beginning to grow quickly.

[1] - Falkland Islands before 1690. Also had other names.

[MerryPrankster]

Just how populated were the colonized regions at the time?

You're describing sending 300 people to an area as though it was something that would have a *major* impact.

[TheNordicBrit]

Just how populated were the colonized regions at the time?

You're describing sending 300 people to an area as though it was something that would have a *major* impact.
I'm only mentioning them to give you some idea of the scale, soon it'll pick up with the 'pacification' of Ireland. It's also so I have my own reference for numbers (I'm too forgetful for my own good).

Also they aren't that populated with settlers yet. Not every native is being kicked out (yet). Thousands are currently being kicked out but this will stop soon as otherwise everywhere bar Dublin, Ulster and Connaught will be barren.

[stevep]

1651

- Immediately after news of this reaches England an initial detachment of 5000 men are called up for deployment to the Netherlands. Alongside this the Navy (with all its newly built frigates) is set out to patrol the Dutch waters. Plans are made to capture Dutch colonies to take advantage of the weakened state the Dutch are in.

That could backfire drastically. It might be one thing to take over a colony that declares for William until the Dutch republic can move forces in and gaining influence there. However if England is seen to be out to grab Dutch colonies, especially the very wealthy eastern spice islands, that could alienate all the Dutch establishment and have them unite behind William. Also given how powerful the Netherlands is at this point that would then be a very tough fight. [Technically I think the Dutch won most of the actual battles in the wars OTL. It was just that because of the relative geographical position with Britain lying across the Dutch trade lines their trade often got hammered].

- After a storm in the Southern Atlantic the second settlers voyage was blown heavily off course. Eventually they smash onto an island, which after numerous checks are done they eventually believe to be 'Hawkins' Maidenland'[1] (specifically East Falkland). Their ship is totally inoperable and thus they begin a settlement where they crashed, they name it 'Charles Town' after the Kings Charles I & II. It is the first settlement on the Falkland Islands, as the islands were previously uninhabited. They also claim the islands for Scotland and rename the archipelago 'Nova Scotia'.

Could be interesting with a Scots Falklands as that would be something a relatively small number of settlers could secure and is less likely to be clobbered by the Spanish than a mainland colony. Might also mean that it provides a base to support positions on the mainland.

- In the Highlands a further 120 Border Settlers are resettled into the region. In the Border Territories there is much talk of some kind of revolt against Scots rule in favour of English rule due to the feeling that they'd be treated better if English, this is still a fledgling movement though it's beginning to grow quickly.


Now that would be a turn up but it could well occur with the relatively broad franchise in England and the way the Scots are treating the people in the borders. [Given they tended to be a rather rumbustious community anyway I could see them kicking up quite a fuss].

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

That could backfire drastically. It might be one thing to take over a colony that declares for William until the Dutch republic can move forces in and gaining influence there. However if England is seen to be out to grab Dutch colonies, especially the very wealthy eastern spice islands, that could alienate all the Dutch establishment and have them unite behind William. Also given how powerful the Netherlands is at this point that would then be a very tough fight. [Technically I think the Dutch won most of the actual battles in the wars OTL. It was just that because of the relative geographical position with Britain lying across the Dutch trade lines their trade often got hammered].

My thought was to only have colonies that would go Orangist be taken by the English, or at least an attempt made on them. The peace of the aftermath of the war between the victors and losers will be interesting in this respect.

Could be interesting with a Scots Falklands as that would be something a relatively small number of settlers could secure and is less likely to be clobbered by the Spanish than a mainland colony. Might also mean that it provides a base to support positions on the mainland.

My thoughts exactly, not really much else to say on the matter for now however in the future it will prove to be useful.

Now that would be a turn up but it could well occur with the relatively broad franchise in England and the way the Scots are treating the people in the borders. [Given they tended to be a rather rumbustious community anyway I could see them kicking up quite a fuss].

Steve
Again you're right and there's not much else to say. However it will be interesting with further developments between the Scots and English governments.

[TheNordicBrit]

1651

June
- In the United Provinces army is very much split over supporters for the Orangists and supporters for the Republicans. For example while Maarten Tromp supports the Orangists, Michiel de Ruyter supports the Republicans. Thus not only do we see the land armies becoming split but we also see the navy, the United Provinces pride-and-glory, become split over whom to support too.

- The Battle of Hulst began the naval warfare of the Dutch Civil War in which two small groups of ships faced off against each other, one of the groups was led by Maarten Tromp. The Orangists (under Maarten Tromp) managed to fend off the other group of ships and damage a ship (the Alexander).

- A large English fleet under Admiral Robert Blake sets off to the United Provinces carrying the large force of around 2000 men (under half of the total force) to help the Republicans. This force landed at Blije in Friesland, as the Netherlands had split between East and West, East was controlled by the Republicans. This contingent of the New Model Army was led by General George Monck and were there to support the Dutch in their Civil War against the Orangists.

- In Ireland the largest number of settlers to have gone over from England yet in a single move occurred, with over 750 settlers moving to the Pale. While this is not much it shows that with the pacification of Ireland more people are willing to go.

- The Scottish finally receive word from their first settling party that they made it to Port Henry, thus the Scottish Regent ordered the next shipload of 300 men be sent to Port Henry and that the settlers should begin to spread out slightly from Port Desire along the coast to create a firm grip on the area.

- As 400 more Scots are forced out of the Border Territories violence in the area grows towards the Government that seems to be ignorant to their previous loyalty to King Henry I. While no single movement is created as of yet there are small groups of men whom have begun to resist the government.

July
- In North America the Commander of the Massachusetts Militia Robert Sedgwick gathered together a force of some 540 men (a large force by Colonial Militia standards) and marched south to New Amsterdam, the capital of New Netherlands. Robert Sedgwick did this by his own accord after he'd found out that New Amsterdam was supportive of the Orangists. Once there a fight began in New Amsterdam between the Massachusetts Militia and the unprepared New Amsterdam Militia which numbered some 200 men. By the end of the month Robert Sedgwick and his men had succeeded in taking New Amsterdam which they proceeded to pillage. Sedgwick declared the New Netherlands to be under English control until such a time in which the Orangists have been defeated in Europe and a settlement is reached with the Republican Dutch.

- The Battle of Ter Heijde occurs in which 10 English frigates and 60 Republican Dutch ships face off against 54 Orangist ships. The Republican contingent successfully defeat the Orangist forces, even capturing a ship. The English Naval Power helped them here with George Ayscue helping to secure the victory by severely damaging the flagship of the Orangists with his own ship (the ERS Sexby).

[TheNordicBrit]

1651

August
- The first major land battle occurs in the Dutch Civil War, in the Battle of Almelo a force of around 1000 Republicans (including 400 English from the New Model Army) face off against a force of Orangists that numbered 1200 (including 250 Scots Highlanders). The battle lasted 2 hours and the Republican forces won the day with the Orangist faction fleeing the town.

- In the Border Territories as another 300 settlers are forced out, a united underground resistance force was generated. It had the aim of disrupting the governments attempts at taking any more settlers from the Border Territories, a secondary aim was that if they couldn't stop the Scottish government then they'd rebel and attempt to gather English support.

- The Scottish government begins to look for a bride for King Henry I in order to build up Scotland's own foreign policy again alongside making a potential ally on the continent in case Spain retaliates for the Scottish colonies in South America. They eventually only came down to two possible marriages that would help with a war against Spain, these were either Catherine of Braganza (daughter of Portuguese King John IV) or Marguerite Louise d'Orléans (the cousin of King Henry I through his mother).

September
- After talks with the governments of both France and Portugal it was decided that King Henry I should marry his cousin Marguerite Louise d'Orléans whom he was 5 years older than. However due to her age (only being 6 years old) the governments agreed that the couple would be married once she was 10 in 1655. However for the time being she was to live and be raised in France still, arguments were brought forward over the likelihood of her being brought up a Catholic. These arguments were put down by the Regent arguing that if the King were to allow her Catholicism interfere with how their children were raised/his own policies then he'd be forced to abdicate.

- With the talks of marrying the King to a Catholic princess and further deportations the Border Territories underground movement rose in numbers rapidly, the calls for a union with England began to grow.

- Another naval clash occurs in which 100 English Frigates led by Robert Blake and 20 Republican ships clashed with 67 Orangist ships led by Maarten Tromp. Robert Blake wreaks havoc on the Orangists shipping and manages to sink 16 of the Orangist ships including the Brederode which carried Lieutenant-Admiral Maarten Tromp. Another 11 Orangist ships were captured, and these were given to the Republican Dutch in return for a substantial amount of money. Of the English Navy only 2 ships were sunk, none were captured though some were severely damaged.

- After the major success of the Battle of Katwijk (see above) the English Parliament ordered that another 10 Frigates be created as they saw that the English Navy was able to match and even defeat the Dutch Navy which had previously been the best in Europe.

- Alongside this the Scottish government knew that if they were to have colonies overseas they'd need their own navy, now that they'd lost the benefit of England's naval power. Thus the Scots government ordered for 5 Frigates to be built.

[Blackadder mk 2]

I'm guessing England won't be happy its de facto puppet is trying to assert itself in the world.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

One small quibble. You keep referring to warships as frigates. I thought at 1st you were taking specifically about propagates, which at the time were medium-small ships largely used for scouting and trade protection. However sounds distinctly like you're referring to the actual line-of-battle ships [later abbreviated to battleships]. Those were somewhat smaller than a century or so later but still powerful units.

How committed are the sides in the Dutch civil war? If it looks like the Republicans are winning and especially with both English and French support I could see many waverers deciding living in peace is better that tearing the country apart fighting in a losing cause.

I could see some problems in Anglo-Scottish relations. Things are good between England and France at the moment but that could easily change in which case a marriage between a Stuart king on the Scottish throne and a French queen could be a cause of tension. Especially if the borders region is in rebellion against the Scots monarchy and asking to be annexed to England.:eek:

Steve

[DirtyCommie]

Hey, man, I just started reading your TL today, and I wanted to say; this is absolutely brilliant. Keep going!

[TheNordicBrit]

I'm guessing England won't be happy its de facto puppet is trying to assert itself in the world.
I wouldn't say Scotland is so much a puppet... More just been put in its place by England. It's going to have the same amount of independence from England that Scotland had IOTL, however the English army is now very powerful and thus Scotland is going to have to watch itself ;)
TheNordicBrit

One small quibble. You keep referring to warships as frigates. I thought at 1st you were taking specifically about propagates, which at the time were medium-small ships largely used for scouting and trade protection. However sounds distinctly like you're referring to the actual line-of-battle ships [later abbreviated to battleships]. Those were somewhat smaller than a century or so later but still powerful units.

I'm not really too sure what the accurate word would be, however I'm interchanging from ship to frigate. This is what wikipedia has to say on the matter:
The fleets built by the Commonwealth of England in the 1650s generally consisted of ships described as "frigates", the largest of which were two-decker 'great frigates' of the third rate. Carrying 60 guns, these vessels were as big and capable as 'great ships' of the time; however, most other frigates at the time were used as 'cruisers': independent fast ships. The term "frigate" implied a long hull design, which relates directly to speed (see hull speed) and also, in turn, helped the development of the broadside tactic in naval warfare.

How committed are the sides in the Dutch civil war? If it looks like the Republicans are winning and especially with both English and French support I could see many waverers deciding living in peace is better that tearing the country apart fighting in a losing cause.

That's a good question, and we'll see the sides developing. However it's going to be quite a bit like the English Civil War, with neither side wanting to fight that much but the stubbornness of William II will cause any settlement to falter. However I'm not saying it will or won't be a long Civil War, that'll be shown in the TL.

I could see some problems in Anglo-Scottish relations. Things are good between England and France at the moment but that could easily change in which case a marriage between a Stuart king on the Scottish throne and a French queen could be a cause of tension. Especially if the borders region is in rebellion against the Scots monarchy and asking to be annexed to England.:eek:

Steve
Ah yes, the Anglo-Scottish relations are going to be rather sour for years, especially if the revolution occurs in the Border Territories. Alongside this a Franco-Scottish marital union isn't in England's best interests either (think back to the Auld Alliance). With Scotland trying to project power around the world and building up its navy England is not going to be happy.
Hey, man, I just started reading your TL today, and I wanted to say; this is absolutely brilliant. Keep going!
Thanks :) If you have any suggestions, questions or quibbles please do ask away.

[TheNordicBrit]

The Border Territories Revolt

The Dumfries Massacre

The situation in the Border Territories finally breaks, with the Scots government enforcing unwanted settling among the populace, choosing a Catholic bride for King Henry I and now the unwanted taxation for a navy the people in the Border Territories finally take matters into their own hand. Calling themselves the 'Borderlings', the group of underground Scots whom had been plotting finally erupted into rebellion.

It began in the main town of Dumfries when a group of 50 troops marched into the town and began to forcibly evict occupants, when around 20 men refused to let the troops into their homes. 5 of the troops knocked the door down, however the occupants poured boiling hot water into the faces of the troops.

In the ensuing panic the occupants managed to gather together the weapons of the troops (though they had little knowledge of how to operate a musket they were still useful as a club). The men then proceeded to blockade their home (poorly) against the troops that now gathered around to take the bodies of the former comrades away.

The commander ordered the house be burnt down, however 7 of his men refused to kill the occupants of the house as they couldn't kill these men without a proper trial having gone forward. The commander had them arrested and taken away from the scene. By this point other Borderlings had reached the street and were causing their own havoc, one man had three horses charge down the street to disperse the troops, however one unlucky man didn't move fast enough and was severely injured.

What ensued would become known as the 'Dumfries Massacre' which would spark a 'Border-wise' rebellion against the Scots rule. A crowd of some 300 people had been getting in on the action by attempting to beat the troops off, while it's unsure whether it was a direct order of simple a troops firing in the confusion, but the band of 38 men left began to fire into the crowd which caused the crowd to rapidly disperse. One man had a simple graze to his cheek, however 10 people had been killed and another 11 fatally wounded.

After they'd fired into the crowd the commander ordered that the homes of any resistors be burnt to the ground, another fatally bad decision. Around 20 homes were burnt down initially, however this soon grew as the fire gathered pace and soon around 140 homes were on fire, many of the occupants being burnt alive inside. In Dumfries that day around 54 died, another 43 were fatally wounded. Of the initial group of troops 5 died, 3 fatally wounded and 7 were put in prison for disobedience to the commanders orders.

[TheNordicBrit]

1651

October
- After having heard about what had happened in the 'Border Territories' the Scottish government began to order Scots forces be deployed in substantial numbers to the territories. The English government was very much the same, however not for the security of the territories.

- The Orangists led by Prince William II clash with Republican forces in the Battle of Almere. This was the first major victory of the war for the Orangists as the 1000 strong Orangist force managed to kill 400 of the opposing 2000 Republican force.

- While the Orangists won a land victory the English navy continued to support the Republican navy effectively. In the Battle of Dover a large Anglo-Dutch force managed to force a Orangist fleet away and gave chase. The English took 3 ships, while the Republicans captured a single ship.

- In England Parliament finally votes on the reduction of the New Model Army, however it was meant to go from 50,000 to 30,000 initially. This is changed to 40,000 due to the war in the Netherlands. Around 8000 of the troops that are laid off by Parliament are given land and settled in Ireland, this helps give the English presence in the Pale a large boost.

- In New Netherlands, while supposedly 'keeping it safe' for the Republican Dutch the English occupiers of the colony begin to forcible evict the Dutch primarily from the capital New Amsterdam, however it occurs throughout the colony as well.

November
- Robert Sedgwick begins to send out pamphlets encouraging settlers to migrate to New Amsterdam, which he (in some pamphlets) renames the colony 'New Lilburne' in honour of John Lilburne, Lord President of the Republic of England at the time.

- The Scots troops and English troops in the 'Border Territories' watch each other with caution. At the same time the English begin to have talks with some of the heads of the 'Borderlings' whom wish to be annexed by England.

- In the Netherlands the Orangists again defeat a Republican force before any troops from the New Model Army could make it to the scene of the battle. On land it looks like the war may be turning in the Orangists favour.

[TheNordicBrit]

1651

October
- In the 'Border Territories' the English and Scots forces finally clash. During a riot in Galloway a Scots troop accidentally fires on an English troop that is standing idly by, after which the English troops return fire.

- Soon after the Anglo-Scots clash hotter heads prevail and both governments declare war on each other and thousands of English troops begin to move up to the 'Border Territories'. The neutrality guaranteed in the Treaty of Newcastle is ignored as well.

- In the Netherlands the Republicans suffer yet another loss against the Orangists, and now with England being distracted in Scotland the loss is even severer. Some believe the war will end soon with Prince William II taking Amsterdam and imposing his will upon the Dutch people. Some even spoke of a proper monarchy being made in the Netherlands under 'King' William II.

- However at sea the English defeat another substantial Orangist Naval task force, though it's still too powerful to launch any amphibious landings near major towns.

- The migration from other colonies is at a trickle-pace to 'New Lilburne', while it's near non-existent from England. However Sedgwick continues his forced evictions of Dutch settlers in the region.

- The Scots warships are totally obliterated in their very early phases of construction by the English Navy that proceeds to place Edinburgh under a large-scale blockade. This requires the withdrawing of warships from the Dutch Civil War, however it is deemed more important to win a quick war against the Scots.

November
- The Siege of Galloway occurs, in which English troops begin a siege against the defending Scots troops. Elsewhere in the Battle of the Nith both Scots and English forces clash along the River Nith. It's a close-run battle however the English secure a tactical victory by forcing the Scots back slightly.

- The Border Rebellion grows in number and ferociousness, with the rebels being supplies by the English they look upon their southern neighbours in a new light, as a kind of saviour against an oppressive regime.

- Alongside this James Holborn created a regiment that included mainly seasoned English troops, however it also includes some new recruits that come from the Border Territories that want to fight for an Border union with England.

- In the Netherlands the Republicans lose yet another major battle that's strategically decisive for Prince William II, as he's now just 10 miles away from Amsterdam - The centre of Republican decision-making.

[DirtyCommie]

Fascinating stuff, Nordic. I wonder if the Orangists will win, and what this will mean for the Netherlands....

[Cylon_Number_14]

If it weren't for the fact that this is a Leveller-focused timeline, I would begin to fear that their days are numbered. As it is, I really like how this is not a democracy-wank, but a reasoned exploration of an interesting socio-political faction gaining control over an important country.

[TheNordicBrit]

Fascinating stuff, Nordic. I wonder if the Orangists will win, and what this will mean for the Netherlands....
Thanks for reading and commenting, my plans for the Dutch in the future are a tad foggy however I have a general idea.
If it weren't for the fact that this is a Leveller-focused timeline, I would begin to fear that their days are numbered. As it is, I really like how this is not a democracy-wank, but a reasoned exploration of an interesting socio-political faction gaining control over an important country.
Thanks to you too for reading, and yeah I'm a little sick of how people (including myself in the past) have made it out to be a Leveller England = Utopian England.

Next update coming soon :)

[TheNordicBrit]

1651

December
- The Border Rebellions continue as more land is grabbed by the rebels and English troops, Galloway rapidly fell to the English as well as rebels within the towns walls 'betrayed' the garrison and opened the town up to the English.

- At sea the English Navy rules the Straits of Dover, however the Orangist Navy is powerful enough to stop any further English troops landings in the Netherlands.

- In the Netherlands the Orangists strike the fatal blow against the Republican faction with William II leading the March Into Amsterdam on Christmas Day. After this the morale of the Republicans is shattered and William II creates the Agreement of Amsterdam, its contents are (generally) as follows:


William II be recognized as the Prince of Orange and statholder in the United Provinces.
William II will dictate the size of the land army, however the size of the navy will for the next decade be severely reduced.
The colony of New Amsterdam is to be ceded to the Republic of England, however all other Dutch colonies will be left alone by the English.
All English blockades of the Netherlands and her colonies will be lifted.
The New Model Army in the Netherlands alongside all English prisoners will be released immediately and allowed to travel back to England.

1652

January
- With the recent injection of battle-hardy troops from the Netherlands into the English front in the Border Territories the Scots forces begin to fall back rapidly, almost being thrown totally into Scotland. Where the small patches of Scots troops remain there are mass numbers of rebels fighting through guerilla warfare.

- In the Netherlands William II runs a near-total dictatorship, and begins to put pressure on the politicians to allow him to take the title of 'King', however they are uneasy about this even though the majority supported him in the previous short-lived Civil War.

- A petition is created by Sedgwick to argue for the name of New Amsterdam to officially change from that to 'New Lilburne'. He sends it off to Lord President Lilburne at the end of the month with thousands of signatories.

February
- William II threatens to call his army to destroy the Dutch government if they don't agree to constitutional change. Thus, fearing another bloody and weakening war they comply. By the end of February a new constitution is rapidly created and agreed upon. William II of Orange is officially crowned King William II of the United Province, with his son William taking the title of 'Prince of Orange'.

- The English finally push the Scots out of the Border Territories, with this as well as the thousands dead in mind the Scots government send a peace envoy to the English armies. Not long after the 'Treaty of Galloway' is created, in which peace is declared and the Border Territories are officially ceded to England. While some in England call for a complete invasion of Scotland the Lord President knows that in future when old wounds heal the Scots could be a useful ally.

-

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Well that tidies things up quite well and ends things pretty successfully for England. They have secured a better position in regards the Scot's border and also winning OTL New York. [Wonder if Lilburne would finding naming it after him too pretensions. Doesn't really sound like the sort of thing a true puritan would go for, especially one with a reputation for links with the common population. Possibly name it after on of the biggest republican victories or any lost may tar, or possibly a religious name, say 'New Zion' or something like that].

I think the biggest 'win' however is that the Dutch fleet seems to have been removed as a serious rival markedly earlier than OTL. This gives England [keep writing Britain] much better security from that threat - although may be a problem with a later war with Spain and/or France - and exposes the Dutch trade and possessions more to other powers. This could well be a crippling blow to the Dutch as a major factor in Europe as trade and their eastern colonies are what powers much of their economy. I would think King William would have to seek to rebuild the navy ASAP.

A good move to seek a moderate peace with Scotland, as it hopefully makes for a securer border. Does mean the Scots have to re-think their forced movements of populations, which apart from the expulsion of Catholics from the Highlands could now end.

Don't forget that with the delays in communications it will take months for news of the agreement to reach distant parts of the world. Similarly I doubt if any English forces released by the end of the Dutch war would be available for Galloway by January. They would need to be located, shipped back, re-equipped and marched north. Even if the government thought they were urgently needed I doubt it they could get there within a couple of months. However news that the war in the Netherlands was over and England would be able to commit it's full forces against Scotland might well be a factor in making the Scots decide to concede the region without further fighting.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

Well that tidies things up quite well and ends things pretty successfully for England. They have secured a better position in regards the Scot's border and also winning OTL New York. [Wonder if Lilburne would finding naming it after him too pretensions. Doesn't really sound like the sort of thing a true puritan would go for, especially one with a reputation for links with the common population. Possibly name it after on of the biggest republican victories or any lost may tar, or possibly a religious name, say 'New Zion' or something like that].

The renaming of New Amsterdam isn't obviously that significant but it will cause a bit of a ruckus in Parliament. However you're generally right that he won't allow it to be called New Lilburne.

I think the biggest 'win' however is that the Dutch fleet seems to have been removed as a serious rival markedly earlier than OTL. This gives England [keep writing Britain] much better security from that threat - although may be a problem with a later war with Spain and/or France - and exposes the Dutch trade and possessions more to other powers. This could well be a crippling blow to the Dutch as a major factor in Europe as trade and their eastern colonies are what powers much of their economy. I would think King William would have to seek to rebuild the navy ASAP.
Yes, for now the Dutch Navy has been (forcibly) decreased by a substantial amount, however we're going to see King William repeat what happened after the Treaty of Munster with the navy now instead of the army.

A good move to seek a moderate peace with Scotland, as it hopefully makes for a securer border. Does mean the Scots have to re-think their forced movements of populations, which apart from the expulsion of Catholics from the Highlands could now end.
As you see it's a moderate peace with Scotland, this has been influenced by the fact that they've just seen the relatively small area completely rebel against its mother country and win.

Don't forget that with the delays in communications it will take months for news of the agreement to reach distant parts of the world. Similarly I doubt if any English forces released by the end of the Dutch war would be available for Galloway by January. They would need to be located, shipped back, re-equipped and marched north. Even if the government thought they were urgently needed I doubt it they could get there within a couple of months. However news that the war in the Netherlands was over and England would be able to commit it's full forces against Scotland might well be a factor in making the Scots decide to concede the region without further fighting.

SteveHmm good point. However for the simple fact that I've written it into the TL may we simply overlook this as a little mistake, the timing of the troops entering the war wouldn't play a huge role either way... ;)

Oh and a new update is coming soon-ish.

[Valdemar II]

One comment with the Dutch being evicted from New Amsterdam while at war with Netherlands would have several consequences. They can't return home, while at war so they have to settle in the countryside. New Amsterdam will lose lot of it value. If we mix this with fewer settlers from England, this may ironic keep the Dutch settlers linguistic distinct. Of course if the English also try to evict from the country side, they may be forced to trek inland creating American Boer-like states.

To the eviction of the Catholic Irish I could see a exodus to Germany which have suffered from the 30YW, where they can help repopulate Catholic areas, the Austrians may also use them in Hungary. While unlikely to stay distinct in Germany in Hungary French-speaking settlers stayed distinct to the 19th century, the Irish exodus may be big enough to keep Gaelic and English enclaves viable to the 20th century in Hungary.

[TheNordicBrit]

1652

March
- The petition to rename New Amsterdam finally reaches the Lord President. After some careful though he cannot agree to call it New Lilburne due to his Puritanism. However he does declare that it should be renamed 'New Westminster' as Westminster is where Parliament sits ans Parliament won the Civil War.

- In the Commons preparations are made for another election. Many of the Moderates call for a revision of the Constitution so that elections would be every 4 years. Again this is another debate that will go on.

- While the Lord President and the Levellers are preparing for the next election they also begin to debate amongst themselves as to what should be done if they win the next election. Many argue that a proper debate over a second House should happen, while others argue that the foreign policy should be the main point to debate on. Lilburne agrees that while a secondary house is important that foreign policy should be the priority with the new Kingdom of Netherlands and the Catholic powers of Spain and France at war still.

- The Scottish colony on Nova Scotia[1] grows further as the colony of Port Henry begins to struggle against some natives. To escape the colony many run away overseas to Nova Scotia where they find there are a few hundred Scotsmen already there. For now Port Henry is left generally barren.

April
- With England now being at peace the Army is further decreased with around about another 1000 troops being settled in Ireland. However at the same time the Navy continues to grow with another 10 frigates being ordered, Parliament is able to do this with the economy of England booming after the Dutch merchant threat is put down and the Jewish banking help finally begins to support the economy.

- The Scottish government restarts its naval program, commissioning another 5 frigates. While both the Scottish and English governments are suspicious of the other neither do anything to aggravate the other.

September
- In England people vote in another election. The Levellers in fact gain seats and have 130 seats, the secret-Royalists lose seats and have only 56. The Moderates gain the lost Royalist seats however overall they lose 8 seats and have 97 seats, the Religious gain 2 seats making their total 67. The Levellers have shown that the country supports them and their decisions and thus are given a new mandate. In the election for the next Lord President John Lilburne wins yet again by an increased majority from the previous election.

- With the Leveller success in Parliament again they begin to discuss foreign affairs. The main point of debate are the ongoing Franco-Spanish and Portuguese Restoration Wars. Many support the idea of an alliance with either France or Spain against the other faction, the main proponent of some Anglo-Spanish Alliance is General John Lambert, one of the most influential men in Parliament (as a Moderate) and the Army. Many on all sides of Parliament supported this idea, and thus the matter was put to a vote. The vote for an Anglo-Spanish Alliance won by 200-150.

- A group of English delegates are sent to Spain in order to create a united front against France, the initial talks go reasonably well with the Spanish generally agreeing to such an Alliance. By the end of September the 'Alliance of Madrid' is officially signed and the Republic of England officially declares war on the French, however prior to the delegates even being sent by England to Spain the English Navy had already attacked numerous French colonies and taken them. For example Port Royal had already been attacked and occupied rapidly, while the town of Quebec had been put under siege.

[1] - Falkland Islands.

[TheNordicBrit]

1652

October
- The Spanish Monarchy orders that a large number of mercenaries should be imported from the Irish region of Connaught and the Highlands of Scotland. Not long after thousands of Catholic Irishmen and Scotsmen join up with the Spanish army to fight in the 'Portuguese Restoration War'.

- At Quebec English troops make landfall, while the French militia puts up a gallant defense of the town they cannot continue to defend it and eventually after heavy losses they surrender to English forces. As well as this Ile Saint-Jean[1] is captured by an amphibious English landing. The power of the New Model Army seems to be unstoppable even when its size has been decreased.

- A new French offensive occurs in Catalonia and yet again the 'Duchy of Catalonia' is created with the King of France being declared 'Duke of Catalonia'.

- At the same time of the French offensive against Spain the English Navy dispatches troops to the Spanish Netherlands to prepare for an offensive against France (especially Calais). Around 5000 troops are initially sent to the Spanish Netherlands in preparation.

- The French despair as two of the most powerful nations in Europe turn on them, they see that one of the only allies they could get are either one of the Scandinavian nations or the Netherlands. They begin talks with both Sweden and the Netherlands as to some kind of counter-alliance to the Anglo-Spanish Alliance.

- The Scottish refuse to go to war with the English as they'd been beaten twice in under a decade by the English and didn't want to risk another costly war with them. This caused the French to call off the planned wedding between King Henry I and Princess Marguerite Louise d'Orléans. The Scottish government despairs at this, however they realise that better relations with England is more beneficial than a marriage between the still young king and a French Princess.

November
- The Dutch King William II is enthusiastic about a war with the English, thus the Alliance of Amsterdam is signed near the end of the month that agrees to a military alliance between the Dutch and French. However the Swedish disagree to such an alliance, worried about the fate of New Sweden alongside the fact that the Danish and Russians are likely to take advantage of any war they enter.

- The English troops in the Spanish Netherlands go ahead with their planned attack on Calais which had been under siege by the Republics Navy. In the Battle of Calais the French troops are forced into a corner as they cannot retreat into the sea but cannot go forward due to the English forces. They surrender and the New Model Army occupies Calais which is used as a supply base for the English troops.

- A French naval force is sighted off the Isle of Wight, not long after this an English naval force is sent out to hunt this force down. In the Battle of the Solent the English Navy manages to utterly destroy the French force just off the coast from Southampton. Many of the French ships in fact crash along the coastline in an attempt to escape the English, however a storm brewed and the French ships lost sight of the sea and crashed off the Isle of Wight.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Good updates but would the government be that interested in yet another war? While France and Spain are tearing chunks out of each other England could trade with both and third parties and rebuild it's economy. Another major war, especially with a sizeable commitment on the continent will mean a lot of troops, which is likely to be both expensive and unpopular. Also it was fairly obvious that the Dutch monarchy would join in, seeking revenge. [I would expect that at the next election, especially after two cycles in power, the Levellers will see a drop in their support].

One advantage of the Spanish alliance is that it could suck away at least some of the disposed Catholic Irish, although the fact they will get military experience and influence in Spain could come back to bite the republic.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

Good updates but would the government be that interested in yet another war? While France and Spain are tearing chunks out of each other England could trade with both and third parties and rebuild it's economy. Another major war, especially with a sizeable commitment on the continent will mean a lot of troops, which is likely to be both expensive and unpopular. Also it was fairly obvious that the Dutch monarchy would join in, seeking revenge. [I would expect that at the next election, especially after two cycles in power, the Levellers will see a drop in their support].

It's a fair point, however the Puritans will want to support the Huguenot's in France to make some kind of Protestant Europe (a bit like Cromwell wanted to). Alongside this don't forget that the Puritans and Religious Radicals were (and still are) prominent in the Army, this IMO they'd have a tendency to war. As well as this it gives the English Republic an excuse to really put down the new Dutch Kingdom.

One advantage of the Spanish alliance is that it could suck away at least some of the disposed Catholic Irish, although the fact they will get military experience and influence in Spain could come back to bite the republic.

Steve
Quite a lot of the Catholic Irish whom serve in the Spanish army will stay in Spain. More on that later.

[MerryPrankster]

Good update.

[Mongo]

This is an intriguing idea and I have been following this thread, however it concentrates almost entirely on military events and international relations. I personally am much more interested in the social and domestic impact of a Leveler government, which has been left unmentioned so far, as far as I can tell. How does the new Leveler-inspired constitution (and the new laws based on it) effect the day-to-day lives of the people? How are political attitudes changing? Those sorts of question.

[stevep]

This is an intriguing idea and I have been following this thread, however it concentrates almost entirely on military events and international relations. I personally am much more interested in the social and domestic impact of a Leveler government, which has been left unmentioned so far, as far as I can tell. How does the new Leveler-inspired constitution (and the new laws based on it) effect the day-to-day lives of the people? How are political attitudes changing? Those sorts of question.

Mongo

Very good questions I think. The basic idea is that power gets passed far more completely to the people so what their desire becomes a lot more important than in Britain in OTL for some centuries to come. That's why I suspect that the continuing conflict, without a clear gain for the ordinary person, is likely to be unpopular.

You see the same thing in the 20thC. As more people were enfranchised it became more difficult to fight the small wars that the country waged in earlier centuries, let alone moblise for major conflicts. Or to do the long term military spending which was required.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

This is an intriguing idea and I have been following this thread, however it concentrates almost entirely on military events and international relations. I personally am much more interested in the social and domestic impact of a Leveler government, which has been left unmentioned so far, as far as I can tell. How does the new Leveler-inspired constitution (and the new laws based on it) effect the day-to-day lives of the people? How are political attitudes changing? Those sorts of question.
Ah these are all good points and I was going to focus on them at some point, likely in my next update. The general overview is that there's no state religion and freedom to practice any religion (except Catholicism or any violent religion). Unlike in OTL though the Puritan views of Parliament won't dominate England by trying to make the country good spiritually. Thus Christmas and theatres etc are still around. More on this in my next update.
Mongo

Very good questions I think. The basic idea is that power gets passed far more completely to the people so what their desire becomes a lot more important than in Britain in OTL for some centuries to come. That's why I suspect that the continuing conflict, without a clear gain for the ordinary person, is likely to be unpopular.

You're kind of right in your first comment, in that now around 15-20% of the population can vote. Thus there certainly is more power for the people however not for the lower classes. However in the last comment you are quite in that wars will soon become unpopular and the people will let Parliament know.

You see the same thing in the 20thC. As more people were enfranchised it became more difficult to fight the small wars that the country waged in earlier centuries, let alone moblise for major conflicts. Or to do the long term military spending which was required.

Steve
Again quite right, however there is more to come in this respect :)

[TheNordicBrit]

Social, Cultural And Political Effects On England So Far
Since the Levellers took over England one of the biggest changes is the creation of a Republic built on a Constitutional and Unicameral system of government with a 'Lord President' as Head of State whom is elected by the Parliament that has been elected itself.

One of the initial and most noticeable effects the Civil War had on England was the deaths of nearly a whole generation of men alongside the immediate poverty that followed the Civil War. However over time this poverty has gradually lifted as Jewish influence within the English economy alongside the lessening of Dutch monopolies over trade has allowed for the English economy to rise back to its pre-war standards.

Another of the noticeable effects is the destruction of the State Church (Church of England), as the Leveller Parliament was very tolerant of other religions such as Puritans, Jews and so forth. However the groups that are still excluded are violent/heavily disruptive religious sects and Catholics. Though this tolerance of other religions has led to a flourishing among the more minor sects of believers, for example the Puritans and Quakers saw a rise in people whom believed in their religions over that of the Anglicans (people whom previously belonged to the Church of England). Alongside this religious tolerance has come the abolition of tithes. An age-old tax that would fund the state religion, however without a state religion these tithes weren't necessary and were therefore gotten rid off.

One of the effects that came from the Constitution is that it allowed the middle class self-sustaining male members of society to elect in governments, this comprised around 20-25% of the population of England being allowed the vote which was an increase of around 16-21% from the previous minority of upper-class land owning gentry. This has led to an increase in the middling-classes power politically as their views are voiced (generally by the Levellers, more radical Moderates and some religious radicals).

In respects to OTL it'd be far to say that this was around the time that classic-liberalism really started to emerge in English politics (with the rights of the individuals becoming important), while some would assume that this political freedom would allow for more 'socialists' such as the Diggers to become important it in fact helped quieten the already meagre Diggers. With the Middle Class/Lower Gentry being pacified by the Levellers the far more radical Diggers were viewed with disdain and being far too radical with their belief in the destruction of private property. Even the lower-classes who's lives were generally unaffected didn't sympathise too much with the Diggers.

Another group that cannot be affected are the previous Royalists. Many of the Royalists whom are being fined through Parliament were of the top 1-3% of English society that supported the King and whom could afford to pay out. However a great number of these English Royalists also fled the nation to nations on the Continent. Some of these were Protestant however a great number fled to be in Catholic courts, the primary one being the French Court under King Louis XIV. One of the most famous of these fleeing Royalists was Henry Wilmot, Earl of Rochester. He fled to France and fought in the French army against the English numerous times, he would later be succeeded by his son John Wilmot and this English family line would be prominent in later French Monarchical Courts.

Another important aspect of the Levellers having taken over was in the Court system. The courts not only became more independent of Parliamentary decisions but a law is made in order to scrap the use of Old French in Court proceedings and the use of English is made mandatory. Previously in Courts the likelihood was that of Parliament or the Monarch had you charged you would be found guilty, however over time this changed as some Religious Radicals were put on trial for being too aggressive. These Radicals were found innocent even after put on trial, thus we saw the courts begin to have a larger independent influence over proceedings in the nation.

[Mongo]

One effect I would expect to see is a burst of immigration of previously repressed religious minorities from the Continent (Hussites, Mennonites, Jews, etc.) coming to the new land of religious tolerance. This would presumably result in a major increase in economic activity, as many of these immigrants would be motivated to build a prosperous new life for themselves and their co-religionists, and many of them would belong to specialized (and valuable) trades.

[Mongo]

Another question I have is about the future pace of additional change. One tendency that I see in recent history is that once social liberalization starts, it often becomes a continuing process of further change. Sometimes, as in the West, it is a decades-long process (although frequently composed of decades of slow change interspersed with periods of rapid change), and sometimes it is an accelerating landslide of change (i.e. Gorbachov's "perestroika", which was intended to merely reform Socialism in the USSR, but ended up with the fall of the USSR and the establishment of a non-Socialist political environment).

In the case of the Leveler TL, I am wondering about the groups of people that have not yet gained the franchise, but may feel that they are "next in line" to receive it. Some groups may not feel the need to demand it (such as those who are just under the minimum age requirement, they merely have to wait and they will be old enough) but others would feel encouraged to press for change (such as women who would otherwise meet the requirements).

[stevep]

One effect I would expect to see is a burst of immigration of previously repressed religious minorities from the Continent (Hussites, Mennonites, Jews, etc.) coming to the new land of religious tolerance. This would presumably result in a major increase in economic activity, as many of these immigrants would be motivated to build a prosperous new life for themselves and their co-religionists, and many of them would belong to specialized (and valuable) trades.

Mongo

Very likely, although this could cause a lot of resentment in itself.

One other big factor, although it only becomes important OTL ~1660 onwards with Louis XIV coming to power, was the growing persecution of the Huguenots in France. OTL many fled to Britain and strengthened it considerably economically. It could be that with England displaying such religious tolerance and at war with France such persecution could start earlier. [You could even have the odd situation of Spain taking Catholic Irish refugees and in return helping French Huguenots reach safety in England, since most of the Huguenots are in the old Gascony region I think. Although that degree of co-operation at this point would be unlikely].

TheNordicBrit - please remember that France is just starting the period when it threatened for ~150 years to dominate and overrun much of Europe. OTL it took several decades of warfare and much effort for much of Europe [most espeically the Austrian empire and the Netherlands as well as Britain], to wear down the French and even then they made important territorial gains. Hence, with the Dutch on the other side without large scale Austrian intervention, to keep the French at bay is going to take a huge effort that could well be beyond England at this point. You're likely to need at least a Marlborough type figure plus a large army, plus the finances and will to the effort for 2-3 decades. OTL the Netherlands had a markedly stronger economy at the start of the wars and were largely exhausted by the end of it while Britain, with substantial financial expertise from the Netherlands also had huge debts.

The other option might be, if the Spanish Netherlands are lost fairly quickly, fighting a predominantly naval war. That could led to the French and Dutch squabbling over the gains and if the French try and push deeper into Germany that will bring the empire in. Although probably you will still need at least financial if not military support for such allies. Not to mention that in ~1680-1690 the French fleet came close to defeating the combined British and Dutch fleets. As such simply defending England's shores and trade could be very difficult.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

One effect I would expect to see is a burst of immigration of previously repressed religious minorities from the Continent (Hussites, Mennonites, Jews, etc.) coming to the new land of religious tolerance. This would presumably result in a major increase in economic activity, as many of these immigrants would be motivated to build a prosperous new life for themselves and their co-religionists, and many of them would belong to specialized (and valuable) trades.
Very true, this will certainly be commented on later.
Another question I have is about the future pace of additional change. One tendency that I see in recent history is that once social liberalization starts, it often becomes a continuing process of further change. Sometimes, as in the West, it is a decades-long process (although frequently composed of decades of slow change interspersed with periods of rapid change), and sometimes it is an accelerating landslide of change (i.e. Gorbachov's "perestroika", which was intended to merely reform Socialism in the USSR, but ended up with the fall of the USSR and the establishment of a non-Socialist political environment).

In the case of the Leveler TL, I am wondering about the groups of people that have not yet gained the franchise, but may feel that they are "next in line" to receive it. Some groups may not feel the need to demand it (such as those who are just under the minimum age requirement, they merely have to wait and they will be old enough) but others would feel encouraged to press for change (such as women who would otherwise meet the requirements).
Quite right as to social development leaning towards others being franchised now too, however this won't be for a while but when it does occur it'll be more men at first whom get the vote.
Mongo

Very likely, although this could cause a lot of resentment in itself.

One other big factor, although it only becomes important OTL ~1660 onwards with Louis XIV coming to power, was the growing persecution of the Huguenots in France. OTL many fled to Britain and strengthened it considerably economically. It could be that with England displaying such religious tolerance and at war with France such persecution could start earlier. [You could even have the odd situation of Spain taking Catholic Irish refugees and in return helping French Huguenots reach safety in England, since most of the Huguenots are in the old Gascony region I think. Although that degree of co-operation at this point would be unlikely].

TheNordicBrit - please remember that France is just starting the period when it threatened for ~150 years to dominate and overrun much of Europe. OTL it took several decades of warfare and much effort for much of Europe [most espeically the Austrian empire and the Netherlands as well as Britain], to wear down the French and even then they made important territorial gains. Hence, with the Dutch on the other side without large scale Austrian intervention, to keep the French at bay is going to take a huge effort that could well be beyond England at this point. You're likely to need at least a Marlborough type figure plus a large army, plus the finances and will to the effort for 2-3 decades. OTL the Netherlands had a markedly stronger economy at the start of the wars and were largely exhausted by the end of it while Britain, with substantial financial expertise from the Netherlands also had huge debts.

The other option might be, if the Spanish Netherlands are lost fairly quickly, fighting a predominantly naval war. That could led to the French and Dutch squabbling over the gains and if the French try and push deeper into Germany that will bring the empire in. Although probably you will still need at least financial if not military support for such allies. Not to mention that in ~1680-1690 the French fleet came close to defeating the combined British and Dutch fleets. As such simply defending England's shores and trade could be very difficult.

Steve
While you're quite right about it being around this time that French power really comes to the fore, don't forget we're seeing a much more formidable and militaristic England now. While with more people being able to vote this will counter-act that, don't forget a lot of the new voters will be merchants whom will want to secure monopolies and decrease other nations mercantile abilities (i.e. the Dutch). An England with a standing army and a lot more lower-gentry commanders in the army we're going to see a lot more talent within the English military, alongside this don't forget about the Franco-Spanish War and the Fronde Civil War that will be supported by the English... A new update coming soon.

[TheNordicBrit]

1652

December
- An Anglo-Spanish Force lands amphibiously in Guyenne in an attempt to create revolutionary feelings within the region from the Fronde. This was successful as many of the leaders whom had fled to Spain beforehand managed to stir up rebellion again, the most notable of which was Louis, Grand Condé. The town of Bordeaux fell rapidly to the Anglo-Spanish Force, while at the same time slightly further north the town of La Rochelle fell to English forces as the (now much reduced) population of La Rochelle fell into revolt against the Catholic French government.

- In an early Naval move the English forces ignore the Americas and go on the hunt for Cape Colony, a recently created Dutch colony on the Cape of Good Hope. The English utterly destroy the young colony before any Dutch naval forces reach the Cape.

- The English forces are under a heavy siege by the French forces in Calais, while the French aren't succeeding in starving them out the English cannot push out from their small pocket of territory.

- Throughout Europe a large number of migrants travel to the religiously-tolerant England, for now the rate is a mere trickle however York, London and Portsmouth are notable for the growing minorities within them made up of Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians and even some escaped Huguenots.

- Parliament begins to plan for the war against the Dutch, many argue that the Dutch East Indian Company should be the main battle-ground against the Dutch. However a larger amount believe that a new Civil-War should be kicked off within the Netherlands. This should distract the Dutch government enough to secure the Spanish Netherlands aren't captured by the Dutch while the English could potentially use it to march into the Netherlands. The 'Orange Plans' are also drawn up for a post-Civil War Republican Netherlands, the plans argue that the Royal family of the Netherlands should undergo trial in much the same way as the English monarch had to. This would ensure Prince William wouldn't have enough power to pose a threat to the Stewart's in Scotland.

- With the English at war with the Dutch alongside English pressure the Scots are forced to declare war on the Dutch (and therefore French), in return the English ensure the survival of Nova Scotia as a Scots colony as well as no English pressure in the future on the Scots to go to war.

- In New Westminster the Dutch colonists are practically completely evicted from the-now English land. They are dispersed westwards into the wilderness, and a great number come into contact with and create friendships with the Native Americans.

1653

January
- In the Netherlands the English land with a force of 5000 men, among them are Robert Blake (again) but also numerous previous Dutch Republican military leaders from the previous Civil War. These commanders manage to bring a good number of troops in the area under the Republican fold.

- At the same time of the Republican landing in East Netherlands King William II and a large army (around 20,000 men) begin to move from the Dutch border over into the Spanish Netherlands and the initial border battles are huge Dutch victories.

- The Scots look around for another potential marriage for King Henry I, the most obvious being Catherine of Braganza from Portugal. Thus they begin talks with the Portuguese monarch (John IV) to discuss a marriage between the young ones.

- The joint Fronde-Huguenot Rebellion begins to spread across France slowly. Alongside this the Anglo-Spanish control over the west coast of France is secured, however an army has been organized by the French and is marching west to face the Anglo-Spanish army.

[DirtyCommie]

Oh man, I just had a great idea: Can you have a battle where those fearsome Scottish highlanders face off against a group of French cavaliers? It'd be really sweet.

[Velasco]

Can't King Henry I marry Princess Henrietta, his niece?

[Blackadder mk 2]

I'm guessing that after this war England will consolidate while funding every anti-French group?

[TheNordicBrit]

Oh man, I just had a great idea: Can you have a battle where those fearsome Scottish highlanders face off against a group of French cavaliers? It'd be really sweet.
I could do that though it'd be Scotch Highlanders in a Spanish army... I guess I could try and write a battle-scene though I'm not too good at them...
Can't King Henry I marry Princess Henrietta, his niece?
There are only two Henrietta's I can think of. His mother and his sister, he only has a nephew at this point whom is the son of a King that's at war with his Kingdom. He has some cousins but they're all a lot older/younger...

[DirtyCommie]

I could do that though it'd be Scotch Highlanders in a Spanish army... I guess I could try and write a battle-scene though I'm not too good at them...


It would be severely awesome if you would do that! I have faith in your writing skills!

[MerryPrankster]

Nice update. If things go right, the "House of Orange" won't have a country when they come back and French absolutism and Catholic supremacism will crumble.

[Velasco]

There are only two Henrietta's I can think of. His mother and his sister, he only has a nephew at this point whom is the son of a King that's at war with his Kingdom. He has some cousins but they're all a lot older/younger...

AH, I got mixed up, thinking Henry I was son of King James.

A perfect bride would be Lady Elizabeth Seymour. Her father, Lord Beauchamp, was (In real life) a Cavalier, and rightful King of England and Ireland by virtue of King Henry VIII's will. She's suitably bred, being of Tudor extraction and great-niece of Queen Jane Grey. At this point in time, with the family havnig lost the English throne, a nice English bride is probably preferable to a foreign one.

It might also do Henry's popularity some good if he set his cousin, Rupert of the Rhine, as his heir, maybe arranging for him to marry his sister Henrietta.

[TheNordicBrit]

It would be severely awesome if you would do that! I have faith in your writing skills!
Why thank you. It'll take me a little while to write simply because I'll need to research battle-tactics of the Spanish, Scots and French at the time.
Nice update. If things go right, the "House of Orange" won't have a country when they come back and French absolutism and Catholic supremacism will crumble.
Thank you, the future of the House of Orange is going to be an interesting one.
AH, I got mixed up, thinking Henry I was son of King James.

A perfect bride would be Lady Elizabeth Seymour. Her father, Lord Beauchamp, was (In real life) a Cavalier, and rightful King of England and Ireland by virtue of King Henry VIII's will. She's suitably bred, being of Tudor extraction and great-niece of Queen Jane Grey. At this point in time, with the family havnig lost the English throne, a nice English bride is probably preferable to a foreign one.

It might also do Henry's popularity some good if he set his cousin, Rupert of the Rhine, as his heir, maybe arranging for him to marry his sister Henrietta.
While I understand your point, you've also got to remember that Scotland is trying to become a colonial power now and they've already gotten England's word on defending Nova Scotia. Having some kind of connection with Portugal would seemingly be perfect as it would allow the Scots to have a neighbour whom is currently rebelling against the Spanish on their side.

And don't forget that Rupert is hated in Scotland as he tried to help Charles II onto the throne alongside sacking large Scottish towns. Also Henry's not even of age to be King yet, let alone pick whom his successor is for when he eventually dies.

[TheNordicBrit]

Bressuire, France: 3rd February, 1653

It was a cold and dark day, the Spanish cavalrymen hated the weather and were agitated to get the ensuing battle over with. Their commander Leopold Wilhelm sympathised with his men, however he'd forced himself to get used to the poor winter weather in France. However in the army's central column where the infantry were situated many of the troops weren't bothered by the weather at all, this was mostly due to the majority of the troops being Scotch and Irish mercenaries. Their leader Captain Alasdair Mac Colla was a hardy Captain whom had created (and put to good use) the 'Highland Charge' in the War of the Three Kingdoms, thus his Scots-Irish Regiment was at the front of the infantry column.

Across the battlefield downhill from the Spanish Army was the French Army, this was made up primarily of French troops and had a good amount of troops. However the poor weather disallowed any long-range muskets being used, and the fact that the offensive French army would have to charge uphill severely hampered the French capacity to win this battle, however they believed their quantity would win the day.

After an hour of artillery bombardments from both sides having little effect the French Cavaliers (led by Vicomte de Turenne) began to make their way up the slope, starting at a slow pace but then they began to hammer up the hill towards the opposing Spanish Cavalry. At the same time the French Infantry (led by Henri de la Ferte-Senneterre) began to march up the hill at a slower pace, while the Scots-Irish regiments wanted to charge at them Alasdair managed to keep them stationary in order to unveil the Highland Charge on the continent.

The Spanish Cavalry clashed with the French Cavaliers in a huge struggle, they cut each other down to no great avail and both sides continued to take casualties at a steady pace.

However the battle truly kicked off as the French Infantry got closer to the Scots-Irish mercenaries. At exactly the right moment Captain Alasdair screamed an order for the his men to charge forward at a rapid-rate. As the Infantry charged they unleashed hell upon the French as they fired off volleys from their muskets at close range, at which point they lept over the dead bodies of the initial dead, drew their swords and targe's and fell upon the horrified French infantry.

The Scots-Irish charged into the French with such speed and blood-frenzy that many of the French were again cut down before they could retaliate, while at the same time many of the French broke and began to flee the battlefield. As more and more infantry piled up against the French they broke further and further, the leader Henri de la Ferte-Senneterre had been cut down and it seemed all was lost. Thus the majority of the remaining French troops simply fled from the field, but before most of the Scots-Irish mercenaries could charge after them Captain Alasdair turned them to the left.

Along the left flank the Spanish Cavalry resolve had been mostly broken and they began to flee the field, as the troops under Vicomte de Turenne were about to run the rest down and charge off to victory they heard a great roaring and thundering come from their own flank. As the first of the Cavaliers turned they saw a huge mass of tartan-wearing, sword wielding Infantry charge at their regiment.

Vicomte de Turenne looked to the right flank in the hope that the other French Cavaliers could support him, however they'd began to charge off to chase after the Spanish Cavalry whom were beginning to flee the field and it was too late for him to call them back to support him. With the Scots-Irish being close he could do nothing bar charge at them otherwise the battle would be lost. It was a pathetic charge as the Cavaliers hadn't gotten up enough motion and the men soon clashed with the Mercenaries aiming primarily for the horses of the Cavaliers in order to cut them down and then hack apart the vulnerable Cavaliers.

It was by this point a battle of attrition as both Scotsmen and French troops continued to slowly hack away at the other side, that was until one lucky Irish troop got a lucky hit on Vicomte de Turenne. As he thrust his sword forward it stabbed straight into the Frenchman's thigh and sliced right through his arteries while going out the other side straight into the horse. As the French Cavaliers saw their leader dead many began to flee, and with this the Mercenaries plunged deeper into French troops leading to the near-total withdrawal from the battlefield.

OOC: I hope that was the kind of thing you were looking for? I'm not good at battles...

[MerryPrankster]

Some repetitive wording, like using "troops" twice in the same sentence.

Also, would infantry be able to catch up with fleeing cavalry? Cavalry have got the speed advantage, plus using horsemen to lure small groups of infantry and then wheel on them to kill them has been done before.

(Hastings--the Normans couldn't penetrate the shield wall, but they could lure soldiers to their doom.)

It might be better if some of the horsemen at least try to pick off the oncoming infantrymen, unless they're totally broken and just trying to run.

However, narrative bits are always fun. I like the idea of a bunch of Scottish berzerkers crushing the French center.

[KillerT]

most cavalry at this time had gone down to wearing breast and backplate -plus a secret and hat (secret being an iron cap). Swords were straightbladed, although vollies of pistols fired at the trot were the main raison d'etre. Dragoons were also in vogue although very much mounted infantry they'd have a firelock, sword, sometimes also a hatchet.

Infantry forces were also on the change from a stage when it was 1:1 pike musket to around 1700 when you're looking at 10 shotte to 1 pike. Sergeants would weild a halbard and officers a partizan. Companies varied from well over 200 men (Colonels company) down to 100 for a typical captains company.

[TheNordicBrit]

1653

February
- In the Battle of Bressuire the Spanish-Scots Forces manage to break a French army before it could reach any of the land controlled by the Anglo-Spanish. However the French army retreats and simple meets up with another (smaller) army to form a single-large army.

- The huge Orangist Army continues into the Spanish Netherlands at a relatively good pace, King William II is still ignorant to the Civil War within his own Kingdom. In the Battle of Brussels William II wins a significant strategic victory against the Spanish.

- However in the Kingdom of the Netherlands without the King or any orders from the King the Republican forces have captured around two-thirds of the country and most of the army within those regions are now loyal to the Republicans. Amsterdam is captured by the end of the month and the Hague is under extreme threat from the Anglo-Dutch Republicans.

- Mary, Princess Royal and the young Prince William are captured by Republican forces. The English parliament demands Mary be sent to England and the Dutch comply, she is believed to reach England by March.

- The West Coast is firmly under Anglo-Spanish control now and they set up a puppet regime for the time being under Louis, Grand Conde. However Louis is leading the large rebelling Fronde-Huguenot Force and thus the Anglo-Spanish Forces run the area how they wish.

March
- A huge naval battle occurs and is called the 'Battle of the Straits'. An Anglo-Republican-Spanish Force faces off against a French Force. The battle is an English success as they destroy 5 French ships, severely damage 4 and capture 5.

- The ship carrying Mary, Princess Royal is caught in a heavy storm, it is swept off course and the boat is never found again. Some say it was taken by Privateers, some say it was sunk during the storm.

- The Republicans have practically taken all of the Netherlands. However the loyal Orangist forces in the Hague will hold out for another month in the Siege of the Hague.

- King William II finally hears of the Civil War in his own Kingdom. He's deeply distressed to hear of his wife's deportation to England. To further his stress he catches smallpox while in the Spanish Netherlands, he's practically incapable of doing anything to help save his Kingdom. He orders his best generals to go with three-quarters of the men and go back to the Kingdom, leaving a quarter behind to defend him in case the English try and capture him.

- The Anglo-Spanish Western controlled France is finally invaded by the large French army, however Spanish spies have already warned the Anglo-Spanish and their own army is mobilising eastwards to meet the French head-on.

- The Fronde-Huguenots Army begins the Siege of Paris, with Louis at the head of the siege attempting to take the capital and force the young King to bend to his wishes.

- The French Army catches wind of this, and it doubles-back, knowing that if it destroys the rebelling army the Anglo-Spanish have little to stand on. While confusing for the troops it's necessary.

[Blackadder mk 2]

Not much to say but things will be very interesting in Europe.

[TheNordicBrit]

1653

April
- The Fronde-Huguenots Army continues its siege of Paris, however it fails multiple times at trying to take the walls of the city. This gives the French Army enough time to make it back to Paris by the end of the month. When they do the disease-ridden Fronde-Huguenots Army is utterly obliterated by the French Army. Louis is captured and is to be put on trial.

- Off the coast of Brittany an Anglo-Spanish fleet meets with a Franco-Orangist fleet. The two don't officially fire on each other for an hour, however the Anglo-Spanish fire at the French ships mainly. By the end of the Battle of Brest 17 of the French ships have been wiped out, while the back of the Orangist navy has now finally been broken. Alongside this 5 French ships were captured and Cesar, Duke of Vendome was killed in action. However the English themselves lost 6 ships and the Spanish lost 3, though this didn't stop this battle from being a large tactical victory for the Anglo-Spanish forces.

- The Republicans finally gain full control over the Kingdom of Netherlands, however before they can cement their role they must face off the still-dangerous Orangist Army that's making its way back to the Netherlands. Thus they pull all their resources together into one large Dutch Army that includes all the English forces in the Netherlands at the time. This large force began to march west in order to meet the Orangist forces.

May
- After having caught wind of the French victory at Paris against the rebels the leaders of the armies debate on evacuating the area of their troops. They proceed to do this once they hear of a large French force moving westwards for their location. While the English troops many Huguenots from the area go with them willingly, this move would lead to much more Huguenot migration from France to tolerant England.

- The two Dutch forces finally meet along the Dutch-Spanish Netherlands border. After a 4 hour-long battle and heavy casualties on both sides the Republican Dutch finally stand victorious on the battlefield. The Orangists surrender after having lost 3/4's of their men as casualties, while the Republicans lost a third and the English lost only a fifth. This strategic victory for the Republicans finally cements their rule over the Kingdom of Netherlands, at which point they begin to create a new Dutch constitution.

- King William II of the Netherlands hears of both the loss of his wife and his army on the same day within hours of each other. He descends into depression rapidly and is weakened to the point of no return. Two days later he succumbs to smallpox and passes away. The rest of his army now has no single strong leader, thus it's decided that the remaining Orangist army would return to the Kingdom of Netherlands in the hope that they wouldn't be punished by the new regime.

- The French are shocked to hear of the King of the Netherlands death and the Dutch withdrawal from the Spanish territory, they immediately begin to mobilize their army back to the North-East in order to take the territory and hold it before any Anglo-Spanish forces can reinforce the lost land.

- With practically all of the English troops having left the continent Parliament now wishes to make peace with the French and Dutch. With the Dutch it's easy as the new Republican government is Anglophile, thus the two nations create a quick peace in the Treaty of the Hague. Then the English began talks with the French in respects to a peace, the Spanish ambassador demanded that the English not make a peace with the French however they're ignored.

Treaty of London
- All current and future hostile actions between the Republic of England and Kingdom of France will cease.
- All current and future hostile actions between the Kingdom of Scotland and Kingdom of France will cease.
- England will cede the port town of Calais back to the French.
- The French colonies of Quebec, Acadia and Ile Saint-Jean will be ceded to England.
- Terre Neuve will be transferred back into French control, however the English will keep their colony on the Eastern seaboard of the island.
- The Anglo-Spanish Alliance is declared void.
- The Franco-Dutch Alliance is declared void.
- The French government recognizes the Republican government of England as the legitimate government with the Lord President as its Head of State, any recognition of the House of Stewart's claim to the now-void English Monarchy is extinguished.
- The French and English government recognize the Republic of Holland, and any recognition of the House of Orange to the now-void Dutch Monarchy is extinguished.
- The previous 'Prince of Orange' William, son of William II of the Netherlands is allowed to enter France and the French court, however any titles relating to the Dutch, English or Scottish thrones are hereby foregone.

[Blackadder mk 2]

I'm guessing that since England is becoming more powerful and being a Republic; Europe will be preparing to at some point crush England.

[stevep]

I'm guessing that since England is becoming more powerful and being a Republic; Europe will be preparing to at some point crush England.

It could be that since England is a more stable and [for the time] very much a populist republic and that now it has helped the Netherlands depose it's monarch there could well be some sort of royalist backlash.

Not to mention that by making a separate peace England has rather burnt bridges with Spain.

However who would do it? France has taken a bit of a battering and is still involved with Spain. Unless that ends fairly quickly their both too busy and not really anyone else with the power and interest. [Unless the Orange family do something drastic like appear to the emperor - which would be so much against what the Dutch have been doing the past couple of centuries].

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

It could be that since England is a more stable and [for the time] very much a populist republic and that now it has helped the Netherlands depose it's monarch there could well be some sort of royalist backlash.

Not to mention that by making a separate peace England has rather burnt bridges with Spain.

However who would do it? France has taken a bit of a battering and is still involved with Spain. Unless that ends fairly quickly their both too busy and not really anyone else with the power and interest. [Unless the Orange family do something drastic like appear to the emperor - which would be so much against what the Dutch have been doing the past couple of centuries].

Steve
In Britain there's a lot less Royalists in England now due to most of the close successors to the throne having been done-away with. Now there's an underage Scots Monarch whom the Scots have agreed to not attempt to put on the English throne, a Dutch baby that's been deposed in its own country and now going to grow up to become a Catholic and the others are German.

We're going to see England building and burning bridges with Catholic nations quite often, however they'll mainly be Spain and France.

You're right there Steve, no one at the moment really has the power to. Spain suddenly has to rethink its strategy against France while France has lost most overseas colonies. Also the Dutch currently have quite an Anglo-phile Republican government in place at the moment, while Anglo-Portuguese and Anglo-Swedish relations will soon be improving.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Just to clarify by back-lash I meant primarily various European monarchies taking a dislike to both an English republic and the fact it helped the institution be 'exported' to the Netherlands as some will see it. Not any internal upsurge for the royalists, although that could re-emerge if things went badly pear-shaped of course.

Steve

In Britain there's a lot less Royalists in England now due to most of the close successors to the throne having been done-away with. Now there's an underage Scots Monarch whom the Scots have agreed to not attempt to put on the English throne, a Dutch baby that's been deposed in its own country and now going to grow up to become a Catholic and the others are German.

We're going to see England building and burning bridges with Catholic nations quite often, however they'll mainly be Spain and France.

You're right there Steve, no one at the moment really has the power to. Spain suddenly has to rethink its strategy against France while France has lost most overseas colonies. Also the Dutch currently have quite an Anglo-phile Republican government in place at the moment, while Anglo-Portuguese and Anglo-Swedish relations will soon be improving.

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

Just to clarify by back-lash I meant primarily various European monarchies taking a dislike to both an English republic and the fact it helped the institution be 'exported' to the Netherlands as some will see it. Not any internal upsurge for the royalists, although that could re-emerge if things went badly pear-shaped of course.

Steve
Aha I see what you mean by that. Indeed this will have interesting repercussions as we may see monarchies becoming more absolute as well which will have its own repercussions as monarchies attempt to hold onto power.

As well as this you're correct about a backlash against England and even Holland from the monarchies in Europe (France and Spain primarily). However this won't happen for a while and England still has some surprises with its foreign relations.

[TheNordicBrit]

1653

June
- With the French army being called to the Spanish Netherlands the Spanish rapidly put down the Second Catalan Revolt in the Franco-Spanish War. Alongside this the Spanish manage to send a large fleet with thousands of troops in order to reinforce the Spanish Netherlands, the weakening of the French Navy when the English were in the war allow Spain to do this with relative ease.

- In Ireland around 8000 men have sold themselves as mercenaries to the Spanish, while around 1000 have gone to France. Alongside this it's estimated that from the beginning of the forced Irish Migration and 1660 that around about 100,000 Irish citizens fled from Ireland. More would follow in the wake of ever increasing English settlement.

- With foreign matters taken care of now and England settling down into an era of peace and growth, however the subject of a second house rears its ugly head again. Many in the Radical and Leveller group believe a second house is unnecessary, especially in the form of the House of Lords again. However every Moderate and secret Royalist agrees with such a move, Parliament is practically gridlocked over the matter. The main problem is who would be let into the Second House and how would its members be appointed? Would it be hereditary? And so forth.

- One of the annoyances that the English had to deal with now was that while their economy and mercantile economy began to boom they still had to face the Sound Dues, a tax imposed on foreign shipping by Denmark. The money generated from this amounted to about two-thirds of Denmark's state income. This tax damaged England's profit from Baltic trade but the Danish were resistant to lowering the tax for the English, thus Parliament looked to a new ally in the Baltic Sea, Sweden. Bulstrode Whitlocke was made the new ambassador for Sweden and he was sent on a diplomatic mission to Sweden to secure an alliance against the Danish.

- The Republic of Holland creates a new constitution that's very much based on the English constitution. It involves a unicameral system in which the States-General (Parliament) elects a 'Statholder' as the Head of State, however the elections only occur every 4 years and unlike the English only the very rich are allowed to vote still here, so only around 5% of the population.

July
- Bulstrode Whitlocke managed to gain the alliance he'd been looking for and midway through July the 'Anglo-Swedish Treaty' would be signed by him and Queen Christiana. It was not just a trade alliance but also a military alliance mainly aimed at Denmark. Alongside this Treaty Whitlocke promised the Swedes that New Sweden in North America would be looked after and secured by the English.

- The Scots government finally strikes a deal with the Portuguese over a marriage. Once King Henry I comes of age in 1657 him and the 2 year older Catherine of Braganza will be married.

- The French and Spanish forces meet in the Spanish Netherlands, the Spanish outnumber the French army by about 4000 troops and around a third of their army is made up of Scot-Irish mercenaries. The two sides don't attack the other for a while due to the Spanish having the higher-ground, however at around 16:13 the French begin to retreat. The Spanish attack the French from behind and the Battle of Arras kicks off, it lasts for around 2 hours but at the end of the fighting the Spanish army had won the battle and the decimated French army fled back to its homeland.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Good point with the Swedish alliance. OTL in a few years the Swedes are to break the Danish hold on the straits by taking over the two provinces in [what's now] southern Sweden so the Danes no longer control both sides. Getting an alliance with them and getting this a bit earlier may be a way of doing this earlier and getting commercial links there, although it will mean another war. I can see a reaction soon if this isn't a pretty quick and simple conflict. Possibly also the Dutch may well want to get into the act as they have even more trade with the Baltic region than us.

One point is Sweden is pretty powerful at the moment in the region as we don't want it getting too strong and especially not getting a monopoly of the Baltic naval supplies. That could be very dangerous for the western naval powers. Possibly the key point, since not a lot we could do about Finland or the Baltic states, is make sure we don't let them get Norway.

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

1653
August
- Many in the general population and in Parliament are demanding that the size of the army be reduced further now that England isn't in a state-of-war with any rival nations. While the Lord-President and Levellers dislike the idea due to their origins within the Army they know they must shift their priorities from the Army to the civilian population if they wish to be re-elected. Thus a bill is put forth in Parliament with the objective of reducing the Army size to just 20,000 men, half of its current strength. Around about 10,000 of these men will be settled in Ireland, another 3000 in the recently gained Border Territories and 2000 in the English American colonies (primarily the French territories just gained), the last 5000 will stay in England and will be subsidised.

- The matter of a 'Second House' won't go away, thus a proper debate with all the MP's is held within parliament. By the end of the month a new addition to the Constitution is made in which a 'House of Councilors' is created. It was a reforming of the 'Council of State' and held people from numerous backgrounds including military figures, religious figures, mercantile figures and so forth. It also elected its own head however it would be appointed overall by Parliament, the Lord President of England would also sit in the House of Councilors as well as the House of Commons. The first elected 'Prime Councilor' was Henry Vane the Younger whom had a large interest in Religious Tolerance and the American Colonies.


- In Scotland the government are holding debates over the future of their economy, their colonies haven't drained much from the economy due to the use of Carolinian supporters being heavily taxed and their lands taken. However if Scotland wishes to even conceive taking on the economies of the English and Dutch they must start by allying themselves with England specifically. Thus the Scots held talks with England in which they debated and agreed that Scotland would go to war with Denmark if England did. This also played into the hands of the Scots as it would allow them to take the Faroe Islands, a group of islands that would help the economy of Scotland in the North Sea.

1654
June
- Queen Christina I of Sweden abdicates the Swedish throne and her cousin Charles takes over as King Charles X. Lord President Lilburne congratulates the King on his coming to power and it's rumoured he and Charles X in fact get along well.

1657
June
- King Frederick III of Denmark attacks Sweden to regain the territories lost to Sweden in 1645.

- Soon after the Danish invasion of Sweden the English declare war upon the Danish. However the English Army doesn't play much of a part within the war, the navy is simply used to blockade the island of Iceland. Also the Scots are allowed the use the Republican Navy to transport large numbers of troops in an amphibious attack on the Faroe Islands. In the 'Battle of the Faroes' Scots troops use the support of the English navy to take the islands of the Faroes.

[Death]

What attitudes does Republican England have towards colonial expansion?

How is the Commonwealth parliament coming along in TL?

I am really enjoying this TL and look forward to moar.

[TheNordicBrit]

What attitudes does Republican England have towards colonial expansion?

How is the Commonwealth parliament coming along in TL?

I am really enjoying this TL and look forward to moar.
This new Republic (especially among the Levellers and Religious Radicals) favour colonial expansion, many Levellers in fact used to live/fight in the colonies (the Lord-President Lilburne did). However this isn't just North American, this included Ireland in their eyes too so that's why colonisation is focused on the more densely populated Ireland at the moment.

The Republican Parliament is much more Liberal than OTL, however this doesn't mean it is completely democratic or Liberal. Larger suffrage and fairer elections. It's quite progressive however this has slowed up greatly recently.

Thank you and another update should be up by tomorrow :)

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Good to see the updates and that there are plans to cut the military burden. Could be a bit awkward with a new war starting but possibly planning on the Swedes doing the majority of the fighting on the ground.

Sounds like the Danish overseas empire is going to be seriously trimmed. The Scots are going to be getting the Faroes and possibly England getting Iceland, which could be interesting. [Not much use now and could be a pain to maintain but could be useful when the fisheries start being productive].

Steve

[MerryPrankster]

Republican English Iceland?

Awesome.

However, you make no mention of Iceland being occupied, only blockaded.

[stevep]

Republican English Iceland?

Awesome.

However, you make no mention of Iceland being occupied, only blockaded.

MerryPrankster

He's only mentioned blockading so far. Could have an invasion later or a transfer at the peace. [Although England's main claim is to get an end to the Sound Dues].

Raises an interesting question. If Iceland was transferred to England would it be a colony or a part of the republic. Something possibly to come up with Protestant parts of Ireland and other colonies later. Iceland is Protestant so there would be no great religious problem. Could they start sending MPs to Parliament?

Steve

[TheNordicBrit]

Update will be coming at some point guys.

Anyway I'm a little divided over Iceland. In a sense it'd be cool for England to have Iceland and with a small population anyway it wouldn't be that difficult to colonise, however I'm not sure a peace treaty with Denmark after this war could be that devastating...

One thing I was thinking of doing was having the Laki Volcano erupt around this time (a century and-a-bit early I know) thus causing mass-famine in Iceland and killing even more people due to the English blockade, however it'd be more localised.

But what do you guys think? I'd like some input and ideas over the plausibility of this TL and England getting Iceland.

[Death]

Update will be coming at some point guys.

Anyway I'm a little divided over Iceland. In a sense it'd be cool for England to have Iceland and with a small population anyway it wouldn't be that difficult to colonise, however I'm not sure a peace treaty with Denmark after this war could be that devastating...

One thing I was thinking of doing was having the Laki Volcano erupt around this time (a century and-a-bit early I know) thus causing mass-famine in Iceland and killing even more people due to the English blockade, however it'd be more localised.

But what do you guys think? I'd like some input and ideas over the plausibility of this TL and England getting Iceland.

Well if Britain could gain control of Iceland it would make this TL more interesting as in most other TLs i have read about colonial Britain almost never gets Iceland. Plus some times the path least traveled is the best one to take.

And as for British Colonization i am sure that there are plenty of English fishermen looking for new fish grounds after all wasn't that what that whole argument was about in the first place.

Hey i am glad you asked this question it gets a lot off my chest about the lack of Brit Iceland TLs.

Good luck with the next update. You have done a great job so far with this TL in my opinion.

[MerryPrankster]

I support English Iceland just for the coolness factor.

[Mongo]

One thing I was thinking of doing was having the Laki Volcano erupt around this time (a century and-a-bit early I know) thus causing mass-famine in Iceland and killing even more people due to the English blockade, however it'd be more localised.

I like this timeline, but would prefer if big geological changes (such as the Laki fissure eruption happening 130 years early) did not happen. There is no plausible reason for this to happen. Changes in the specific daily weather, yes -- if fact I would expect that -- but not changes in the deep Earth processes.

[TheNordicBrit]

Well if Britain could gain control of Iceland it would make this TL more interesting as in most other TLs i have read about colonial Britain almost never gets Iceland. Plus some times the path least traveled is the best one to take.

And as for British Colonization i am sure that there are plenty of English fishermen looking for new fish grounds after all wasn't that what that whole argument was about in the first place.

Hey i am glad you asked this question it gets a lot off my chest about the lack of Brit Iceland TLs.

Good luck with the next update. You have done a great job so far with this TL in my opinion.
See I've always wanted an English Iceland... The only problem is is it plausible for this TL?
I support English Iceland just for the coolness factor.
True ;)
I like this timeline, but would prefer if big geological changes (such as the Laki fissure eruption happening 130 years early) did not happen. There is no plausible reason for this to happen. Changes in the specific daily weather, yes -- if fact I would expect that -- but not changes in the deep Earth processes.
That's perfectly understandable, I asked because I wasn't to sure on the big geological change. Thank you for the input :)

Thanks guys, also something you may notice now is that there'll be large gaps in the dates (i.e. Jumping from 1653-7). This is mainly because nothing big is happening in-between and generally it's OTL. This also applies say to the Second Northern War, Sweden has invaded Poland however because it happened IOTL I don't mention it.

[MerryPrankster]

I don't see how an English Iceland is particularly implausible, especially if the population wasn't particularly high during this time period.

If need be, you can always create a Great Man who died in OTL but in TTL lived to be this military genius who takes Iceland despite the long odds.

[stevep]

I don't see how an English Iceland is particularly implausible, especially if the population wasn't particularly high during this time period.

If need be, you can always create a Great Man who died in OTL but in TTL lived to be this military genius who takes Iceland despite the long odds.

MerryPrankster, TheNordicBrit

Alternatively a reasonably great man on the Icelander side that decides it's better coming to terms with England rather than starve for the Danes.

In terms of moving an eruption so much I would agree with Mongo that, unless it's the specific POD in a TL, which it isn't in this, I would rather avoid.

Steve

[MerryPrankster]

MerryPrankster, TheNordicBrit

Alternatively a reasonably great man on the Icelander side that decides it's better coming to terms with England rather than starve for the Danes.

In terms of moving an eruption so much I would agree with Mongo that, unless it's the specific POD in a TL, which it isn't in this, I would rather avoid.

Steve

That works.

Did the Danes impose any unpopular policies on Iceland OTL?

If so, we could have an Icelandic uprising in favor of English rule.

IIRC Denmark was a monarchy and Icelanders have a strong parliamentary tradition (their Thing, or assembly, has met continuously for over 1,000 years), so there might be republican sentiment not based on hatred for a brutal Danish governor or something like that.

An uprising in Iceland in favor of England and republicanism that takes place as part of a war between republican England and Denmark might be the straw that breaks the camel's back re: European monarchs' attitude toward the English--the Orangists were a bunch of wannabes, but Iceland was under the control of a longstanding monarchy.

[TheNordicBrit]

MerryPrankster, TheNordicBrit

Alternatively a reasonably great man on the Icelander side that decides it's better coming to terms with England rather than starve for the Danes.

In terms of moving an eruption so much I would agree with Mongo that, unless it's the specific POD in a TL, which it isn't in this, I would rather avoid.

Steve

That works.

Did the Danes impose any unpopular policies on Iceland OTL?

If so, we could have an Icelandic uprising in favor of English rule.

IIRC Denmark was a monarchy and Icelanders have a strong parliamentary tradition (their Thing, or assembly, has met continuously for over 1,000 years), so there might be republican sentiment not based on hatred for a brutal Danish governor or something like that.

An uprising in Iceland in favor of England and republicanism that takes place as part of a war between republican England and Denmark might be the straw that breaks the camel's back re: European monarchs' attitude toward the English--the Orangists were a bunch of wannabes, but Iceland was under the control of a longstanding monarchy.

Thanks for the input guys :) MP you're quite right in that Iceland had a Parliament that had met for centuries, going back to before Danish rule over Iceland. An example of an unpopular policy was that Denmark disallowed any other nations than Denmark trading with Iceland which IOTL continued until the 19th Century I believe. With a blockade of Iceland which had to import most of its own food (other than livestock) in the coming winter months I think a revolt against Danish rule is highly likely.

[TheNordicBrit]

1657

November
- Many in Iceland are beginning to resent Danish rule, a Monarch forced on them is continuing a war with a Republic that has the power to halt all imports from Iceland while the winter destroys the remnants of their food supply. Not only that but the waters within Iceland (not including the areas of volcanic and gaseous activity) begin to freeze over. It's a hellish winter for Iceland and a lot of anti-Danish feeling sweeps over the nation, the use of propaganda leaflets within Iceland from England begins to create a lot of pro-English feeling. Jón Arnarson appears at the forefront of this new pro-English movement, since August he's been raising a small paramilitary force with the now anti-Danish Althingi supporting him.

December
- With the harsh winter and blockade now starting to have major effects on the population of Iceland the revolt begins. The town and biggest port of Iceland (Akureyi) is taken by an amphibious assault by the English due to the high amount of Danish merchants in the area, the Althingi in Thingvellir declare Danish control over Iceland void while they also declare allegiance and loyalty to the English Republic. The private army of Jón Arnarson marches across to Reyjkavik and takes the small settlement and then proceeds to wipe out all Danish resistance on the western coastline.

1658

February
- The Treaty of Roskilde is signed, thus ending the war between England, Scotland and Sweden against Denmark. The treaty is harsh on the Danish as they are forced to allow Swedish, English and Scots shipping through the Sounds without having to pay taxation. All Norwegian land in southern Sweden, Bornholm and from Trøndelag northwards are ceded to Sweden. The Faroe Islands are ceded to Scotland while Iceland is ceded to England whom almost immediately open the Icelandic ports to total international trade, ending the centuries old policy of isolationism on the island.

March
- Charles X of Sweden had caught a cold during the Dano-Swedish War. He refused to stay warm and continued to inspect troops and be outside, he developed a sepsis from his pneumonia and died on the 16th, leaving his 3 year-old son Charles XI as the King of Sweden with his mother as regent. The new war Charles X had been planning was shelved as the Sound Due's had been ridden of and Sweden needed to focus internally at its new territories. Almost immediately numerous Bornholmians were forced out of the island and many were settled in the Estonian provinces of the Swedish Empire, also around two-thirds of the islands male population above the age of 15 were forcibly enrolled in the Swedish Army. The same resettlement and forced conscription occurred in the old Norwegian territories in order for Sweden to 'divide-and-conquer'.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Well that ended quickly, which hopefully gives a time of peace to stabilise, secure new gains and develop the economy.

I think there's a typo through.;) Presumably should be ceded to Sweden?

Steve

1657
All Norwegian land in southern Sweden, Bornholm and from Trøndelag northwards is ceded to Denmark.

[MerryPrankster]

English Iceland! Awesome!

I wonder if the Scots are starting to feel threatened--they could be attacked from the north as well as the south now.

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

Well that ended quickly, which hopefully gives a time of peace to stabilise, secure new gains and develop the economy.

I think there's a typo through.;) Presumably should be ceded to Sweden?

Steve

Ah thank you for noticing my typo. When I go online tomorrow I'll change it.

IOTL the Dano-Swedish War started and ended at the same times. Charles X still crosses the frozen Sound as in OTL.

[TheNordicBrit]

English Iceland! Awesome!

I wonder if the Scots are starting to feel threatened--they could be attacked from the north as well as the south now.

But now the Scots are tense allies with the English whom have promised to protect the developing Scot colony from Spain.

[Death]

The great Brit Icelandic compromise update has won my subscription to your TL.

[TheNordicBrit]

1658

March (cont.)
- The governance of Iceland is reformed, the official 'capital' is made Thingvellir while the natural port of Akureyri is invested in by the English government so as to allow it to grow, while previously populated by Danes now it's got a range of Icelandic and English merchants. Also construction begins on an official 'Parliament building' for the Althingi to meet in. A Governor is posted to the position in Iceland while the Althingi deals with internal issues surrounding Icelandic people, the Governor and English parliament control the external affairs and any internal affairs surrounding English settlers. The first governor of Iceland is George Ayscue (previous Governor of Barbados), he's made Governor due to his role in the blockade of Iceland which was secondary only to Robert Blake. Instead Blake took on the newly-made position 'Lord Admiral of the Republican Navy' through which he has heavy influence on the running and development of the Navy alongside automatically getting a seat in the House of Councilors.

August
- For the first time in 8 years the Levellers lose the majority of the House of Commons, the Moderates take the House with 179 Moderates being elected. The secret-Royalist numbers decrease however to only around 28 MP's, the Levellers are reduced to having just 78 MP's though the Religious Radicals manage to just about keep their 65 MP's. However they re-elect John Lilburne as the Lord-President due to his success over the years.

September
- The English Parliament passed legislation that gave the English East India Company "the rights to autonomous territorial acquisitions, to mint money, to command fortresses and troops and form alliances, to make war and peace, and to exercise both civil and criminal jurisdiction over the acquired areas."

- The beginnings of the 'Grand Starvation' are seen in Ireland within Connaught. For an unknown reason the fertile regions (and most densely populated) of Connaught began to suffer from famines, while the effects may not have been as bad as they were due to the Protestant Anglo-Scots land-owners refusing to allow the selling of food to the Irish alongside refusing the migration of the Catholic Irish outside the effected area the deaths were magnified greatly. The 'Grand Starvation' continued for around 2 years and is one of the worst blots in Irish history due to the deaths of around a third of Ireland's Catholic population during this time as well as the migration of around a quarter to mainly Germany and Basque (in Spain).[1]



[1] - I'll explain about the 'Grand Starvation' more now. The Lord Deputy of Ireland at the time was Charles Fleetwood whom IOTL was particularly hateful of the Catholics. In the defense of the English government Fleetwood kept the famine secret for about a month, and when he did tell them they attempted to send aid in the form of money and some food. However Fleetwood redistributed the food among the Protestants in Ireland (particularly English Religious Radicals), barely any of the aid made it to the Catholics. Fleetwood managed to keep the continued famine a secret for 2 years with the help of numerous Protestant Radicals, when the English government finally learned of the purposeful continuation of the famine they immediately forced Fleetwood out of office and attempted to remedy Connaught however it was too little too late. Fleetwood was put on trial and found guilty of disobeying Parliament and causing the mass death of hundreds-of-thousands, while not usually a death penalty offense it was used here due to the severity of his actions.

[MerryPrankster]

Fleetwood was put on trial and found guilty of disobeying Parliament and causing the mass death of millions, while not usually a death penalty offense it was used here due to the severity of his actions.
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Does the Republic still have bills of attainder?

If so, Parliament could pass a law condemning Fleetwood to death (after a fair trial of course).

Plus several million counts of murder is doable.

[TheNordicBrit]

Does the Republic still have bills of attainder?

If so, Parliament could pass a law condemning Fleetwood to death (after a fair trial of course).

Plus several million counts of murder is doable.
I guess so yes, I'm not an expert on law however I believe this would be used against him.

And after having reviewed the population of Ireland at the time I've changed it to the deaths of hundreds-of-thousands... Much better :rolleyes:

[MerryPrankster]

And after having reviewed the population of Ireland at the time I've changed it to the deaths of hundreds-of-thousands... Much better :rolleyes:

Yeah. IIRC the Great Hunger killed one million people and caused one million more to emigrate, and that was centuries later.

[TheNordicBrit]

1658

July
- King Henry I officially takes the throne of Scotland as he comes of age and alongside this Henry I is officially married to Catherine of Braganza.

- The 'Conference of Paris' meets, diplomats from all over Monarchist and Catholic Europe convene to discuss the Republic of England and its future. It was a rare occurrence of the Spanish meeting with both the Portuguese and French, both of whom they were at war with. The only non-Catholic nation that met in the Conference was Denmark whom had recently lost huge chunks of land to England, Scotland and Sweden. During the Conference many call for a temporary peace to be made between France and Spain in order to create a united front against the growing Protestant powers of England, Holland, Sweden and Scotland. Not only this but the Spanish wish to rid South America of the Scots colonies in Nova Scotia that they argue is "interfering with trade".

August
- The Treaty of Andorra is signed bringing the Franco-Spanish War to an abrupt end. With neither side winning any major battles there are no territorial acquisitions. There's simply a trade of prisoners of war and various monetary transactions between the nations. Many in Europe are confused as to why these warring nations would choose to end the war so abruptly though through the spy network of John Thurloe (Secretary of State in England) the English managed to find out that the Peace was made in order for a united Catholic front to be used against England, Scotland, Holland and Sweden. Thurloe also finds out that the reason for no such peace between Spain and Portugal is due to the Portuguese being unwilling to go against the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance, especially with a Portuguese Princess being recently married to the King of Scotland.

December
- Off the coast of Nova Scotia a large Franco-Spanish fleet appears and they demand the surrender of the colony from Scotland to Spain, however the hardy-Highlanders of Charles Town flatly refuse to abandon the Stewart's. While the Spanish don't invade the settlement they do bombard it for an hour and thus destroy most of the infrastructure that had been built up, there were 10 casualties (3 dead, 7 wounded).

- The Massachusetts Bay Colony is given a new Governor, William Rainborowe whom lived there in the 1630's. Alongside this the Connecticut Colony is given a new Governor, Thomas Rainsborough (brother of William Rainborowe). These two men are religiously tolerant and wish to truly create a 'New England', they are pro-New England unification and also wish to create a New England nearly totally loyal to England.

[Blackadder mk 2]

So France and Spain have caught on to what England's doing but are going for Scotland? Nice to see the Auld Alliance meant so much to the French. I can see the reason with Scotland being the weaker link and all in all easier to eliminate but still I can see Hetalia fans frothing with rage at this.

[TheNordicBrit]

1659

January- In North America the French two-thirds of Newfoundland begin an attack against the British third, by the end of the month St John's is under siege by the French.


February
- The English government finally hears of the French attack in Newfoundland and thus the Anglo-French War begins, a theatre of war in the larger '20 Years War'.

- Not long after the Anglo-French Wars began the Scots got wind of the Spanish attack on the Scots colony in Nova Scotia, thus they declared war on Spain at which point France declared war on Scotland and England went to war with Spain.

- The already Anglo-phile Dutch government declares war on both France and Spain in order to support the English and Scots but also to take the Spanish Netherlands.

March
- The English order a blockade of Cadiz, Sir Robert Blake leads the blockade and successfully sets it up with a vast English fleet. The English government consider an attack on Cadiz and taking it. Blake favours simply blockading the city however he also admits there would be benefits to capturing it later in the war.

- In Newfoundland the French successfully take St. John's and thus the British third of the island, France now rules the whole of Newfoundland.

- Stories of atrocities carried out in Newfoundland by Catholics and French alike spread throughout the English colonies in North America (some true, some false). However in the English colonies (especially Quebec and Acadia) there are stories (many true) of English Protestants killing waves of French settlers and Catholics. It's estimated that the French population of Quebec shrank by around 65% in just 2 weeks, however even some Royalists whom are associated with Catholicism in the Colony of Virginia are massacred. This is known as 'Black March' for centuries.

- The Anglo-French War has led to a surge in Huguenot migration to England. While the Anglo-Spanish War has had the opposite result in the increase of Irish Catholics migration to Basque.

[Blackadder mk 2]

Wonder who will win zis war.

[Neutron]

Excellent Timeline, just caught up today and its a facinating world you are building. My only concern is that the English Republic seems to be winning significant victories all the time, perhaps some wars were they fall short of their aims or white peace out so to speak.

Of course with this 20yrs war developing I expect whoever is in power may suffer at elections solely due to the populations exhaustion.

Anyway I can't wait for more!

[TheNordicBrit]

Excellent Timeline, just caught up today and its a facinating world you are building. My only concern is that the English Republic seems to be winning significant victories all the time, perhaps some wars were they fall short of their aims or white peace out so to speak.

Of course with this 20yrs war developing I expect whoever is in power may suffer at elections solely due to the populations exhaustion.

Anyway I can't wait for more!
Ah thank you, though I haven't updated for a while which I must do.

England is winning a lot yes, however in the wars I mentioned previously you will notice that in the much larger pitched battles generally the English forces are merely a portion of the overall force (especially seen in the Dutch Civil War). The 20 Years War will obviously have both some English losses and victories, and the group in power will suffer at various times however there's going to be a lot of to-ing and fro-ing.

I might update tomorrow, however I'm nearing exam time so I'll be revising a lot.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Catching up on return from hols. Agree that with the population of Ireland at the time hundreds of thousands is more accurate than millions. How much of this is OTL, in terms of the deaths, Fleetwood's deceit and Parliament's reaction when they find out? [I was presuming you were bringing the Potato famine forward initially but actually not sure about how important the potato was at the time in Ireland so it could be something else?]

Good to hear about the political changes. The fact the government can change peacefully and that it went to moderates rather than more extreme groups bodes well for the republic as it sets a tradition for government by law. Given that Lilburne is maintained as President and presuming this term goes reasonably well [could be awkward with co-habitation] he could well end up with a status similar to that of Washington in the US OTL.

Steve

1658


August
- For the first time in 8 years the Levellers lose the majority of the House of Commons, the Moderates take the House with 179 Moderates being elected. The secret-Royalist numbers decrease however to only around 28 MP's, the Levellers are reduced to having just 78 MP's though the Religious Radicals manage to just about keep their 65 MP's. However they re-elect John Lilburne as the Lord-President due to his success over the years.


- The beginnings of the 'Grand Starvation' are seen in Ireland within Connaught. For an unknown reason the fertile regions (and most densely populated) of Connaught began to suffer from famines, while the effects may not have been as bad as they were due to the Protestant Anglo-Scots land-owners refusing to allow the selling of food to the Irish alongside refusing the migration of the Catholic Irish outside the effected area the deaths were magnified greatly. The 'Grand Starvation' continued for around 2 years and is one of the worst blots in Irish history due to the deaths of around a third of Ireland's Catholic population during this time as well as the migration of around a quarter to mainly Germany and Basque (in Spain).[1]



[1] - I'll explain about the 'Grand Starvation' more now. The Lord Deputy of Ireland at the time was Charles Fleetwood whom IOTL was particularly hateful of the Catholics. In the defense of the English government Fleetwood kept the famine secret for about a month, and when he did tell them they attempted to send aid in the form of money and some food. However Fleetwood redistributed the food among the Protestants in Ireland (particularly English Religious Radicals), barely any of the aid made it to the Catholics. Fleetwood managed to keep the continued famine a secret for 2 years with the help of numerous Protestant Radicals, when the English government finally learned of the purposeful continuation of the famine they immediately forced Fleetwood out of office and attempted to remedy Connaught however it was too little too late. Fleetwood was put on trial and found guilty of disobeying Parliament and causing the mass death of hundreds-of-thousands, while not usually a death penalty offense it was used here due to the severity of his actions.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Some concerns about the attack on Nova Scotia.
a) Given the distances involved, the limited government infrastructure of the time and problems with maintaining a fleet away from main bases I think that only 4 months is too short a time. [OTL it was only about 1670s that Britain started to become capable of maintaining a navy in operational status during the winter months and even later doing so further afield]. Also given the strength of the English and Scottish navies and possible Dutch support plus the relatively small size of the colonies I would think a relatively small force, very likely accompanied by troops possibly from the La Plata colony region, would be used. They would want to keep the bulk of their navies close to home to face the main threats.

b) Given the the Scots 'colonists' were basically deportees and that OTL Catholicism stayed important in the Highlands for some time, a major factor in the region's support for the two Pretenders, I wonder if the colony would be that willing to resist the Spanish?

Steve

1658

July
- King Henry I officially takes the throne of Scotland as he comes of age and alongside this Henry I is officially married to Catherine of Braganza.

- The 'Conference of Paris' meets, diplomats from all over Monarchist and Catholic Europe convene to discuss the Republic of England and its future. It was a rare occurrence of the Spanish meeting with both the Portuguese and French, both of whom they were at war with. The only non-Catholic nation that met in the Conference was Denmark whom had recently lost huge chunks of land to England, Scotland and Sweden. During the Conference many call for a temporary peace to be made between France and Spain in order to create a united front against the growing Protestant powers of England, Holland, Sweden and Scotland. Not only this but the Spanish wish to rid South America of the Scots colonies in Nova Scotia that they argue is "interfering with trade".

August
- The Treaty of Andorra is signed bringing the Franco-Spanish War to an abrupt end. With neither side winning any major battles there are no territorial acquisitions. There's simply a trade of prisoners of war and various monetary transactions between the nations. Many in Europe are confused as to why these warring nations would choose to end the war so abruptly though through the spy network of John Thurloe (Secretary of State in England) the English managed to find out that the Peace was made in order for a united Catholic front to be used against England, Scotland, Holland and Sweden. Thurloe also finds out that the reason for no such peace between Spain and Portugal is due to the Portuguese being unwilling to go against the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance, especially with a Portuguese Princess being recently married to the King of Scotland.

December
- Off the coast of Nova Scotia a large Franco-Spanish fleet appears and they demand the surrender of the colony from Scotland to Spain, however the hardy-Highlanders of Charles Town flatly refuse to abandon the Stewart's. While the Spanish don't invade the settlement they do bombard it for an hour and thus destroy most of the infrastructure that had been built up, there were 10 casualties (3 dead, 7 wounded).

- The Massachusetts Bay Colony is given a new Governor, William Rainborowe whom lived there in the 1630's. Alongside this the Connecticut Colony is given a new Governor, Thomas Rainsborough (brother of William Rainborowe). These two men are religiously tolerant and wish to truly create a 'New England', they are pro-New England unification and also wish to create a New England nearly totally loyal to England.

[stevep]

TheNordicBrit

Again some concerns about details.
a) Timing again, especially with the Scots learning about the attack on their colony in Patagonia. That's a hell of a way to hear in a couple of months. Just about possible that the English might hear from Newfoundland in this time period but that would be pushing it. Of course they may be hearing about it by indirect means, if say there's a Spanish/French dow with some details there but I doubt if the enemy would be that informative about details.

b) As I said in my previous post the English navy at this time was struggling to maintain forces both in British waters during the winter and in hostile European waters for more than a couple of months at any time. [In terms of finance, organisation and simply maintain healthy men and functioning ships]. Hence Parliament may order Blake to blockade Cadiz and he may attempt it but it's likely to be difficult and destruction to the English navy.

c) It might be that the Dutch will support the English and Scots. However this means a clash with two huge continental powers on their doorsteps. [With possibly also the danger that at least one of them will seek a 4th column by supporting the deposed Orangist faction]. It should be noted that even with the Dutch the Protestant powers are very heavily outclassed at this period. Their navies can contest the seas with the Catholic powers but their economies are not really strong enough for extended large scale warfare, except for the Dutch, and they definitely can't begin to match the land armies the Catholic powers can raise.

The other point here is what is the view of the empire in this? [More specifically the Austrian Hapsburg's]. A lot of the empire's power was sapped by the 30 years war and they could be facing a threat from the Turks but it's likely that they would be able to send some forces and that would almost certainly be against the English alliance. [Common family links for the Hapsburg's, common religious links and mutual dislike of regicidial republics].

d) Things sound very bloody in N America, with the levels of massacres that makes it sound like this will be a nasty war. Also just to check has England already conquered Quebec else something sounds wrong? [May be the case. As I say just back from hols so details of the earlier parts of the TL are rather incomplete in what passes for my memory].

Steve

1659

January- In North America the French two-thirds of Newfoundland begin an attack against the British third, by the end of the month St John's is under siege by the French.


February
- The English government finally hears of the French attack in Newfoundland and thus the Anglo-French War begins, a theatre of war in the larger '20 Years War'.

- Not long after the Anglo-French Wars began the Scots got wind of the Spanish attack on the Scots colony in Nova Scotia, thus they declared war on Spain at which point France declared war on Scotland and England went to war with Spain.

- The already Anglo-phile Dutch government declares war on both France and Spain in order to support the English and Scots but also to take the Spanish Netherlands.

March
- The English order a blockade of Cadiz, Sir Robert Blake leads the blockade and successfully sets it up with a vast English fleet. The English government consider an attack on Cadiz and taking it. Blake favours simply blockading the city however he also admits there would be benefits to capturing it later in the war.

- In Newfoundland the French successfully take St. John's and thus the British third of the island, France now rules the whole of Newfoundland.

- Stories of atrocities carried out in Newfoundland by Catholics and French alike spread throughout the English colonies in North America (some true, some false). However in the English colonies (especially Quebec and Acadia) there are stories (many true) of English Protestants killing waves of French settlers and Catholics. It's estimated that the French population of Quebec shrank by around 65% in just 2 weeks, however even some Royalists whom are associated with Catholicism in the Colony of Virginia are massacred. This is known as 'Black March' for centuries.

- The Anglo-French War has led to a surge in Huguenot migration to England. While the Anglo-Spanish War has had the opposite result in the increase of Irish Catholics migration to Basque.

[TheNordicBrit]

TheNordicBrit

Some concerns about the attack on Nova Scotia.
a) Given the distances involved, the limited government infrastructure of the time and problems with maintaining a fleet away from main bases I think that only 4 months is too short a time. [OTL it was only about 1670s that Britain started to become capable of maintaining a navy in operational status during the winter months and even later doing so further afield]. Also given the strength of the English and Scottish navies and possible Dutch support plus the relatively small size of the colonies I would think a relatively small force, very likely accompanied by troops possibly from the La Plata colony region, would be used. They would want to keep the bulk of their navies close to home to face the main threats.

The attack was made by the French and Spanish on the islands of Nova Scotia and it was a minor fleet, the Franco-Spanish governments assumed the small insignificant colonies would surrender but for the reasons I give below they were forced to turn back from the region.

b) Given the the Scots 'colonists' were basically deportees and that OTL Catholicism stayed important in the Highlands for some time, a major factor in the region's support for the two Pretenders, I wonder if the colony would be that willing to resist the Spanish?

Steve
You're quite right that the anger and annoyance at the Scots government alongside the common religion shared by the Highlanders and Spaniards would be enticing for a surrender, however the hardiness of the Highlanders alongside the huge language barrier prevent the colony from surrendering.
TheNordicBrit

Again some concerns about details.
a) Timing again, especially with the Scots learning about the attack on their colony in Patagonia. That's a hell of a way to hear in a couple of months. Just about possible that the English might hear from Newfoundland in this time period but that would be pushing it. Of course they may be hearing about it by indirect means, if say there's a Spanish/French dow with some details there but I doubt if the enemy would be that informative about details.

I see your point, however it's been three months since the attack and a transatlantic voyage from England to East Coast of America only took around a month IOTL so I'd say that it wouldn't be too implausible to have such news be brought to the Scottish governments attention.

b) As I said in my previous post the English navy at this time was struggling to maintain forces both in British waters during the winter and in hostile European waters for more than a couple of months at any time. [In terms of finance, organisation and simply maintain healthy men and functioning ships]. Hence Parliament may order Blake to blockade Cadiz and he may attempt it but it's likely to be difficult and destruction to the English navy.

IOTL during the Anglo-Spanish War the English managed to maintain a blockade of Cadiz (led by Blake) alongside a campaign in the Caribbean that managed to capture Jamaica even after a failed attempt on Hispaniola.

c) It might be that the Dutch will support the English and Scots. However this means a clash with two huge continental powers on their doorsteps. [With possibly also the danger that at least one of them will seek a 4th column by supporting the deposed Orangist faction]. It should be noted that even with the Dutch the Protestant powers are very heavily outclassed at this period. Their navies can contest the seas with the Catholic powers but their economies are not really strong enough for extended large scale warfare, except for the Dutch, and they definitely can't begin to match the land armies the Catholic powers can raise.

Good point on Holland, however this allows for the Dutch to wipe out Spanish influence to the west of them. Also IOTL during this time period the English and Dutch Navies were some of the, if not the best in Europe. So this would mean collectively they could severely damage the Spanish economy alongside (to a lesser extent) the French economy by halting any treasure fleets, this would have further knock-on effects as to the Catholic powers ability to fight etc. While land armies may by lopsided in this war don't forget that the English have an excellent standing army that the Dutch will have attempted to copy. So perhaps we see a slightly more even war on sea and land.

The other point here is what is the view of the empire in this? [More specifically the Austrian Hapsburg's]. A lot of the empire's power was sapped by the 30 years war and they could be facing a threat from the Turks but it's likely that they would be able to send some forces and that would almost certainly be against the English alliance. [Common family links for the Hapsburg's, common religious links and mutual dislike of regicidial republics].

You'll see foreign reactions to this new war in the next few updates, but Europe will slowly awaken.

d) Things sound very bloody in N America, with the levels of massacres that makes it sound like this will be a nasty war. Also just to check has England already conquered Quebec else something sounds wrong? [May be the case. As I say just back from hols so details of the earlier parts of the TL are rather incomplete in what passes for my memory].

Steve
England was ceded Quebec after the previous Anglo-French War, it only had a few hundred settlers around this time. Also this war is bloody in North America as it's much more like the Thirty Years War, a religious based war on the face of it and with Puritan extremists in English colonies facing off against Catholics it's going to be a bloody war.

[TheNordicBrit]

Oops missed this comment.
TheNordicBrit

Catching up on return from hols. Agree that with the population of Ireland at the time hundreds of thousands is more accurate than millions. How much of this is OTL, in terms of the deaths, Fleetwood's deceit and Parliament's reaction when they find out? [I was presuming you were bringing the Potato famine forward initially but actually not sure about how important the potato was at the time in Ireland so it could be something else?]

Well IOTL Fleetwood disagreed with the Second Protectorate Parliament, so a disagreement with Parliament isn't implausible in my opinion. Also Fleetwood disliked simple Protestants and detested Catholics, especially Irish Catholics so his disregard for Irish Catholics lives is quite plausible as well. I'm unsure as to the necessity of the potato in Ireland at this time, however throughout history Connaught has been subject to numerous natural famines as it's not very fertile and has a very rugged landscape.

With a sudden spurt in population alongside English neglect of the needs of the Irish this will act as a catalyst for a horrible famine. IOTL during the Great Famine the overall population of Ireland fell by about a quarter, this was with some help from the British and foreign governments in a larger area. We're talking about a much smaller area without any support and a natural famine that has been artificially magnified by Fleetwood.

Good to hear about the political changes. The fact the government can change peacefully and that it went to moderates rather than more extreme groups bodes well for the republic as it sets a tradition for government by law. Given that Lilburne is maintained as President and presuming this term goes reasonably well [could be awkward with co-habitation] he could well end up with a status similar to that of Washington in the US OTL.

Steve
You're quite right about how Lilburne will be like Washington IOTL, a man who won wars and stabilized England.

[TheNordicBrit]

1659

April
- The majority of the remaining French settlers in Quebec are forced out into the vast North American wilderness, around 30% of these forced out die within the month however many survive and disperse westwards and begin to associate themselves with Native Americans.

- Fleetwood catches wind that many Irishmen in Connaught are managing to escape to Basque thus he steps up his control of the region, without Parliaments permission he begins to order his troops to kill anyone whom was captured while attempting to flee the island. This was without trial and was instant, he even (of the record) said that the troops could kill anyone even if they merely suspected them of wanting to leave.

- In return for the English massacres on the mainland of North America the French in Newfoundland begin to kill off large numbers of English settlers on the island, around 40% are killed off while 30% fled the island to the mainland in makeshift boats. About 40% of these boats sank.

- Leopold I of the Holy Roman Empire took an intrigue into the war that was on his doorstep, on the one hand he wished to join the war however on the other hand whom should he support? He felt a certain amount of affinity with the Spanish Hapsburg's due to their relations, however by supporting Spain he'd also support France and thus strengthen King Louis XIV of France, a nation he didn't wish to see grow stronger. However if he supported the Protestants he'd be seen as weak against Protestant influence as well as rebellious Republicans which may further weaken his Empire, then again he could put France in its place and thus enhance the power of the HRE against the Ottomans as he wouldn't have to be so wary of France.

May
- The English government transport an English force of 5000 men to Portugal in order to support the Portuguese in the 'Portuguese Restoration War', this has the added effect of furthering the pains of Spain on the Iberian Peninsula thus weakening their ability to project power outside Iberia.

- The Swedish launch a preemptive strike against the Danish and a large Swedish force sails across the Sound and the large army numbering some 12,000 men begin a siege of Copenhagen, the Danish look around for some kind of support however their previous allies in Holland are now allied with Sweden.

- In the Americas the English plan an attack on the Spanish West Indies, however they cannot decide where to attack. Many argue the rich island of Hispaniola should be attacked but the Dutch advise them not to as the Dutch attacked the island some years ago and the defenses would be much improved.

- In Brandenburg-Prussia the Elector Frederick William I has called for an army to be created rapidly. He wishes to rid Swedish influence from his own Duchy of Prussia alongside taking Swedish Pomerania.

- King Henry I of Scotland orders an army of at least 6000 men (and at most 9000) be created to sail for the Republic of Holland where they would support the Dutch in the future attack on the Spanish Netherlands, this would be Henry I's first true military experience out of training and would test his leadership and warrior skills.

[TheNordicBrit]

1659

July
- The comparatively huge Scots army finally lands in Holland, Henry I wishes to have the army sent to the front-lines of the war in the Spanish Netherlands immediately, the Scots King is keen to make his mark and Scotland's mark on the continent finally after centuries of having focused on the British Isles.

- The capital of Denmark finally falls to the huge Swedish army and the whole Northern section of the country is overran, after catching news of this the Prussian Elector Frederick William I leads a quick and highly successful Prussian attack on Pomerania that he takes with ease.

- In a Parliamentary vote the English government votes in favour of a daring attack on the Spanish colony of Cuba, a large Caribbean island that makes huge amounts of money for the Spaniards through tobacco and sugar.

- Leopold I of the Holy Roman Empire and King Louis XIV of France continually come to blows over the Empire's territories alongside whom Leopold should support in the current war, thus the English press on with their courting of Leopold I to join what they call the anti-French Coalition. Also the prospect of putting the rising star of Brandenburg-Prussia down after its invasion of Sweden is highly appealing to Leopold whom could make this war a way of putting two rising stars down rather than a war of supporting Protestants.

- In the Battle of Cadiz the blockading English fleet encounters a Spanish Treasure Fleet that's attempting to bring a horde of treasure into the Spanish port, this huge and relatively undefended fleet couldn't defeat the huge English fleet just off the Cadiz coastline and was either sunk or captured, it's estimated the Spaniards lost around £3,000,000.

August
- In the Battle of Bruges the Scottish army clashes with Franco-Spanish forces in the first proper battle in the Low Countries. The Scots perform very well considering their relative inexperience on the Continent, King Henry I proves himself to be an astounding commander considering his age.

- With the Prussians having taken SwedishPomerania the Swedes step up the invasion of Denmark, however they hit a problem as the Danish Navy not only begins to fight back but the Danes actually rally together and prove to be an effective fighting force to release the King from capture alongside having some Prussian support to bolster their forces.

[Death]

I can see the grand alliance being formed between Prussia and England will make some fine and ambitions allies in this TL. Right?

[TheNordicBrit]

I'm going to be starting this TL up again to go with my 'House of Cromwell' (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=185798) TL. However I'll need some time to just read over the TL, I may even decide to re-start it, if not does anyone have any ideas of what to do next in the war?

[MerryPrankster]

I'm going to be starting this TL up again to go with my 'House of Cromwell' (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=185798) TL. However I'll need some time to just read over the TL, I may even decide to re-start it, if not does anyone have any ideas of what to do next in the war?


Why do you want to restart it? I think it's pretty awesome as it is.

[TaetusPrimus]

I think by "start it up again" he means "start writing new posts," yes? If so, I say "just do it."