British Cuba 1763, then...?

[Mappa Mundorum]

So, for whatever reason, the Treaty of Paris negotiations breaks down or turn out differently and, at the end of the day, Britain winds up keeping Cuba. Assume a fair amount of migration from the southern colonies to the island during the next fourteen years.

What happens when the American Revolution begins, presuming it's origins aren't butterflied too heavily away? Does Cuba become one of the original 14 Colonies, or make a separate go at independence at the same time,or stay with the Mother Country? (Or even join in the Declaration but have to be given up to Britain in the final peace agreement...?) If they do join up, how different does an extra slave state at the table make the Constitution?

[Mr Qwerty]

I don't think British Cuba would be involved in the Revolution. Probably a bunch of Southern Loyalists would settle there afterward. British Cuba would change or possibly prevent the Spanish-American War.

[Mappa Mundorum]

Even before that, depending on the size of the military garrison, a British/Tory Cuba could make 1812 considerably less pleasant. (Or make the US less likely to pick that fight, although the overall issues there [Can the Revolution be reversed, and does Manifest Destiny extend to Canada] are going to have to get settled one way or another...)

[Roberto]

Does anyone know the Hispanic population of Cuba at the time?

From what I'm seeing, the demographics would shift rapidly for a higher African descended population, as the British IOTL shipped in a fair amount of slaves in the brief period they held the island. This'd be interesting as they would learn both English from their captors and masters, but also Spanish from fellow slaves and other lower-class people. Maybe a few different split groups of creoles, based on combinations of English, Spanish, Indians, "old" blacks (those who were already settled in Cuba) and the "new" blacks (those who were taken to Cuba in the 1760s and 1770s).

Britain also, interestingly enough, allowed the Cubans to conduct free trade. Maybe the freedoms bestowed upon Cuba would be enough to spark the ARW a few years earlier?

With a strong base in Cuba (the Morro Fortress in Havana was one of the most formidable in the world at the time), the British would easily be able to take Florida should they have ever gone to war with Spain again. With this in mind, maybe the Spanish do not get involved in the *ARW?

[NothingNow]

Does anyone know the Hispanic population of Cuba at the time?
In 1775, the Earliest Census, the white Population was about 56.2%, and numbered about 96,000.




With a strong base in Cuba (the Morro Fortress in Havana was one of the most formidable in the world at the time), the British would easily be able to take Florida should they have ever gone to war with Spain again. With this in mind, maybe the Spanish do not get involved in the *ARW?
Why would they Need to retake Florida? The brits held it from 1763 to 1784, and Florida was a Tory colony in the ARW IOTL, and likely so ITTL.

[mowque]

It would also enhance the British ability to interdict smuggling supply lines for any American rebels (be they ARW or not). If I recall, the Caribbean was the prime target for such illicit trade.

[Beedok]

Canada gets a new province!:D

Wouldn't affect Cuba's trade to much as we're already their #1 trading partners last I check.

[NothingNow]

The Cuban Mining industry might start off way earlier.

[mowque]

The Cuban Mining industry might start off way earlier.

The sugar might really take off. Would be a huge boost to UK capital. Might increase interest in trade affairs in North America.

[Simon]

So, for whatever reason, the Treaty of Paris negotiations breaks down or turn out differently and, at the end of the day, Britain winds up keeping Cuba. Assume a fair amount of migration from the southern colonies to the island during the next fourteen years.
For how Britain would treat their new colony I think the best example we can look to would be Quebec after they gained it in the Treaty of Paris. They started off with some fairly restrictive policies and tried to force the locals to assimilate to British culture only for it to fail, plus with the Americans getting twitchy down south, so they decided to liberalise their rule a bit to help secure their ownership with the Quebec Act in 1774.

Now to begin with British provisional rule in Cuba during the war was pretty popular since they lifted all the restrictions the Spanish had on trade allowing people to trade with the surrounding colonies and instigating something of an economic boom. If they introduce similar policies to Quebec that's going to wipe out a fair bit of good will, but with the American Revolutionary War looming I think Britain will be smart enough to grant them their own version of the Quebec Act (Cuba Act of 1774?) which should head off any unrest. Post American Revolution a large number of southern Loyalists emigrated to Canada and to a lesser extent several of the Caribbean colonies like the Bahamas, in this timeline I could see them to decamping to Cuba since it's much more similar to their homes. This will boost the 'British' population of Cuba but also possibly retard Canada's development slightly. By the late 1770s I could see a system of government and laws that are a mix of Spanish and British a bit like Trinidad.


What happens when the American Revolution begins, presuming it's origins aren't butterflied too heavily away? Does Cuba become one of the original 14 Colonies, or make a separate go at independence at the same time,or stay with the Mother Country? (Or even join in the Declaration but have to be given up to Britain in the final peace agreement...?) If they do join up, how different does an extra slave state at the table make the Constitution?
Well none of the Caribbean colonies joined in with the Revolution but a British Cuba will have a smaller British population that's intrinsically loyal to the Crown. As long as they get a Cuba Act similar to Quebec's like I mentioned above I don't think they'd join the revolution. As for trying to make a go of it on their own I don't think they'd chance it, they'd have to realise that going up against one of the most powerful countries in the world by themselves would be have a very small chance of success. Unlike the nascent US they don't have the population and the geography is against them as well.


Canada gets a new province! :D

Wouldn't affect Cuba's trade to much as we're already their #1 trading partners last I check.
Why would Cuba join Canada? It's not like Jamaica or the other Caribbean colonies did.


The sugar might really take off. Would be a huge boost to UK capital. Might increase interest in trade affairs in North America.
That's actually one of the reasons why the British might not take Cuba in the peace talks. All the rich and influential people that were making their fortunes through sugar in the other Caribbean colonies wouldn't want the competition or to see the market flooded. They'd have been lobbying rather vigorously to maintain their monopoly I'd expect.

[DuQuense]

Why would they Need to retake Florida? The Brits held it from 1763 to 1784, and Florida was a Tory colony in the ARW IOTL, and likely so ITTL.OTL Britain got Florida in trade for returning Cuba in the Peace Treaty. ITTL Britain keeps Cuba, so Spain kept Florida.

This means no British building Drainage Channels, Roads and Canals.
It also means that Runaway Slaves can continue escape into Florida.
The developing [under Spain's benign neglect] Black/Indian Farms, Towns, & Forts were destroyed by the British/American White Settlers between 1763 ~1783.
While a lot of these were rebuilt in the early 1800's they were deliberately targeted by Jackson and His Troops in the 1819 Campaign.
Having Northern [East] Florida covered by 75~100 year old Towns and Farms, occupied by Free Blacks, & The Civilized Tribes, Will Butterfly the early 1800 SE Indian Wars.

[Midas]

Why would Cuba join Canada? It's not like Jamaica or the other Caribbean colonies did.


They might not, but actually they almost did iotl. It was mostly Canada who turned down the option, opting more for trade co-operation instead.

[Monty Burns]

Having Northern [East] Florida covered by 75~100 year old Towns and Farms, occupied by Free Blacks, & The Civilized Tribes, Will Butterfly the early 1800 SE Indian Wars.

I imagine that those would be quite loyal to the Spanish crown as a protector? Or, if they get independent, they might go for British protection? A Florida largely populated by free blacks and Indians and under the protection of a foreign power should have quite an effect on domestic policies in the US!

Another thought: Britain granted the Quebec acts when Quebec was surrounded by "loyal" colonies. The defense of Quebec at that time was secured. This would not be the case with Cuba. So wouuld the Cubans get a "Cuba Act" or would the British employ other policies to secure what is probably their most precious carribean colony?

[Mikestone8]

OTL Britain got Florida in trade for returning Cuba in the Peace Treaty. ITTL Britain keeps Cuba, so Spain kept Florida.



Not for sure. If the war lasts even slightly longer than OTL, the news comes in of the British capture of Manila (OTL we didn't learn of it till after the peace had been signed) so Florida might be exchanged for that.

Also, istr that when Florida became British, most of the Spanish population upped and left rather than be ruled by heretics. I don't know if the oines in Cuba would have done likewise (some of the planters pobably had more property to lose) but if a large proportion do the Anglicisation of the island would proceed faster.

[Simon]

Do you happen to recall where the Spanish population in Florida upped sticks to? Taking a wild arsed guess I'd think a large number of them would have gone over to Cuba. If the British hold Cuba but return the Philippines and Florida for Cuba might we see the locals decamp to Florida rather than say Puerto Rico or Spain? Would have the interesting effect of making Cuba more British and helping secure Florida for Spain.

[Mikestone8]

Do you happen to recall where the Spanish population in Florida upped sticks to? Taking a wild arsed guess I'd think a large number of them would have gone over to Cuba. If the British hold Cuba but return the Philippines and Florida for Cuba might we see the locals decamp to Florida rather than say Puerto Rico or Spain? Would have the interesting effect of making Cuba more British and helping secure Florida for Spain.


Possible though I think New Spain (Mexico) is a more likely destination than any of those.

[Mappa Mundorum]

Cuba means that Britain is more deeply involved in the plantation/slave labor-based economy, post American Revolution, than IOTL, which might well slow (or even possibly speed up) their liberalrization on that issue...

[Yankee Leviathan]

Cuba and the Bahamas might form a state and follow the path of OTL Canada or maybe the Bahamas and eventually come independent. It would all depend on demographics.

[Roberto]

In 1775, the Earliest Census, the white Population was about 56.2%, and numbered about 96,000.


Ah, thanks. That's fairly significant, so we can assume that the Hispanophone population isn't set to fade in importance in Cuba anytime soon ITTL. However, there's bound to be some discrimination, and maybe a minor self-imposed emigration? I'm talking about a couple thousand of the higher class Cuban Peninsulares taking off to maybe Florida or Mexico. Or, even more interestingly, to Louisiana, which would have been newly rewarded to Spain after the 7 Years War. Whether this would be an intentional move on the part of the Spanish government or not, it would certainly cement Spanish control of New Orleans and the Mississippi drainage basin. And since those who can easily uproot are the upper-class, a lot of wealth and capital will be moved into the area, further stimulating development.

And a very good point has been made; without the Anglo-American settlers giving the place a makeover, Florida would retain most of its free black and Indian population, which would be quite entrenched in their forts and free towns. The existence of relatively organized, entrenched free blacks would have interesting consequences in the Southern colonies. Might we see a Stono River-style rebellion on a large scale at some point in the 1800 or 1810s?

[Metro]

The British managed to take the capital of Cuba because of the incompetent Spanish rulers in the capital. But outside the Capital the Creoles tended to put up more of a resistance. Afterall, it was there home. Spanish rulers lived in Spain. An important one would be the heroe José Antonio Gómez of the town of Guanabacoa. Guanabacoa is located 5 km. SW of the Capital. The British raided the town. José Antonio Gómez after the Capital fell and seeing what happened in his town started a guerilla war on the British. The British had the same problems in the Philippines. Outside Manila there were guerilla groups.

Off topic - The British did better in Trinidad in 1797. The Spanish governor Don José María Chacón seeing that he had few troops and no support from the local population handed the entire island over to the British.


Thinking the same thing would happen in Puerto Rico the British sent a huge invasion force of 68 ships to take over that island in 1797. Veteran troops from the UK. together with some German soldiers of fortune. It is said there were not too many Spanish regulars on that island. But there were plenty of local Natives who many armed just with farming utensils and machetes managed to defeat this huge British force.

Spanish Governor Don Ramón de Castro also would not surrender and knew what he was doing unlike the governors of Trinidad and Cuba om 1763. Spanish King proclaimed something, do not remember, because of the islanders loyalty. They also gave the islanders who wanted, free land. This was the last time the British bothered the Spanish in the Caribbean.

[Roberto]

The British managed to take the capital of Cuba because of the incompetent Spanish rulers in the capital. But outside the Capital the Creoles tended to put up more of a resistance. Afterall, it was there home. Spanish rulers lived in Spain. An important one would be the heroe José Antonio Gómez of the town of Guanabacoa. Guanabacoa is located 5 km. SW of the Capital. The British raided the town. José Antonio Gómez after the Capital fell and seeing what happened in his town started a guerilla war on the British. The British had the same problems in the Philippines. Outside Manila there were guerilla groups.

Off topic - The British did better in Trinidad in 1797. The Spanish governor Don José María Chacón seeing that he had few troops and no support from the local population handed the entire island over to the British.


Thinking the same thing would happen in Puerto Rico the British sent a huge invasion force of 68 ships to take over that island in 1797. Veteran troops from the UK. together with some German soldiers of fortune. It is said there were not too many Spanish regulars on that island. But there were plenty of local Natives who many armed just with farming utensils and machetes managed to defeat this huge British force.

Spanish Governor Don Ramón de Castro also would not surrender and knew what he was doing unlike the governors of Trinidad and Cuba om 1763. Spanish King proclaimed something. do not remember, because of the islanders loyalty. They also gave the islanders who wanted, free land.

Interesting. Hadn't heard of the guerilla campaign, I guess there's more resistance than I gave the Cubans credit for.

But if the British are firmly in control of Havana and offer the way for sugar planters to profit (by allowing free trade, which the Spanish never did), how much can the rebels do? The British will make their allies amongst the islanders, so there will be conflict.

Interestingly, even if the Cubans somehow win (I doubt they'd get significant support from the Spaniards, on both a racial basis and wariness of the British), the British companies stationed in the New World would have significant experience fighting against colonial, guerilla, unorthodox fighters... This will certainly change the dynamic of the ARW...

[Mappa Mundorum]

This also harkens back to the other fork of my original question. If the Cuban backcountry rebels are still a going concern by 1776, they might well make common cause with the mainland Revolutionary movement.

Although they may go their own way, either directly after the war or in '89, rather than joining the new nation, of course. (But a 14-striped flag could also lead interesting places.)

[Roberto]

This also harkens back to the other fork of my original question. If the Cuban backcountry rebels are still a going concern by 1776, they might well make common cause with the mainland Revolutionary movement.

Although they may go their own way, either directly after the war or in '89, rather than joining the new nation, of course. (But a 14-striped flag could also lead interesting places.)

I can't see Cuba joining the Americans simply out of solidarity against the British. Different languages, different cultures, etc... Although I could see an Cuban revolution springing up simultaneously as the ARW, with an independent Cuba more than a century early... This would hasten any rebellions in other parts of Latin America and the Caribbean... I see Mexico erupting earlier, as well as Haiti/St. Dominique.

[Faeelin]

Wouldn't the islands want to say as part of Britain? the British occupation led to a booming trade, which will lead to far more prosperity than they found under Spanish rule OTL.

[Thande]

Britain might be able to cement her position by playing the natives against the ruling classes, maybe abolish or at least weaken slavery, etc. (Economically they would probably prefer to keep slavery, but if the island is restless the colonial administrators might take the decision to make the sacrifice in order to pacify it, as they did with the emancipation declaration during the American Revolutionary War in OTL).

Would be interesting to see what Cuba would look like today, assuming it wasn't (successfully) fought over again; perhaps something like Quebec, but with Spanish instead of French (and a more complex ethnic mix).

[Grimm Reaper]

A century later a few hundred Confederate filibusters land and seize the island, crushing the Royal Navy and tens of thousands of British veterans.

[Roberto]

A century later a few hundred Confederate filibusters land and seize the island, crushing the Royal Navy and tens of thousands of British veterans.

Haha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

[black angel]

Why would they Need to retake Florida? The brits held it from 1763 to 1784, and Florida was a Tory colony in the ARW IOTL, and likely so ITTL.

that most likely had to do with its VERY VERY small population, after the Brits took it the small Spanish population left for Cuba and by 1775 there were next to no Brits come to take their place, so the population of Florida was a small number of Spanish that don't care who rules and a smaller number of fresh off the boat Brits

[NothingNow]

that most likely had to do with its VERY VERY small population, after the Brits took it the small Spanish population left for Cuba and by 1775 there were next to no Brits come to take their place, so the population of Florida was a small number of Spanish that don't care who rules and a smaller number of fresh off the boat Brits
Well, plus the Seminoles, the Maroons, the Slaves and the Crackers.
But, yeah, there really wasn't anyone in Florida from about 1740 to the 1810's.

[Roberto]

Well, plus the Seminoles, the Maroons, the Slaves and the Crackers.
But, yeah, there really wasn't anyone in Florida from about 1740 to the 1810's.

Brown people don't count, silly. They don't affect history!

But yeah, just because Europeans weren't around in power doesn't mean there wasn't anything happening there. :rolleyes:

I like the idea of a Seminole/Maroon style independent Florida, although in practice it would get swallowed up by Britain, Spain, or the US.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Well, plus the Seminoles, the Maroons, the Slaves and the Crackers.
But, yeah, there really wasn't anyone in Florida from about 1740 to the 1810's.

Brown people don't count, silly. They don't affect history!

But yeah, just because Europeans weren't around in power doesn't mean there wasn't anything happening there. :rolleyes:

I like the idea of a Seminole/Maroon style independent Florida, although in practice it would get swallowed up by Britain, Spain, or the US.
Actually, I think you'll find that most of the maroons and Seminoles arrived in (East) Florida after 1810. Not all of them, mind, but enough that NothingNow's statement is defensible, even counting 'brown people'.

[NothingNow]

Actually, I think you'll find that most of the maroons and Seminoles arrived in (East) Florida after 1810. Not all of them, mind, but enough that NothingNow's statement is defensible, even counting 'brown people'.

Well, actually I forgot the Minorcans. They were the Majority of Florida's population for about decade or so actually.:o
This was a result of how few people on the ground in Florida at the time thanks to how successful Seminole and Carolinian Slavers had been in the Previous decades. The region was depopulated to such an extent that the Spanish managed to literally evacuate everyone who didn't want to stay in 1763.

[NothingNow]

I like the idea of a Seminole/Maroon style independent East Florida, although in practice it would get swallowed up by Britain, Spain, or the US.
Not really. If the Seminoles keep their heads down and don't piss anyone off, they could be ignored almost indefinitely. Until the Invention of Tourism there was literally no reason why anyone would want to go to East Florida, with the Exceptions of Key West, Tampa Bay and Saint Augustine.

It might make Haiti look rich, but it could stay somewhat independent.

The Map shows what the US and Spain would be interested in (UCS colors for Spain and the US respectively,) plus what IMO the Crackers, Seminoles, Maroons and Minorcans could likely keep. which is Mainly Swampland, F#C&ing Pineforest, Pine and Hardwood Hammocks and Scrubland.

[mowque]

Most of inner New Mexico and Arizona are worthless too. It isn't just the value of land. I have a hard time seeing America (assuming there is an America!) letting such an important shipping area (Doesn't alot of Gulf Stuff go right past Florida?) and part of the Eastern Seaboard going free. Besides, filibusters from 'Florida' or Georgia will always be trying to add land to their states.

[NothingNow]

Most of inner New Mexico and Arizona are worthless too. It isn't just the value of land. I have a hard time seeing America (assuming there is an America!) letting such an important shipping area (Doesn't alot of Gulf Stuff go right past Florida?) and part of the Eastern Seaboard going free. Besides, filibusters from 'Florida' or Georgia will always be trying to add land to their states.

Yeah, the Florida Strait is utterly vital for shipping out of the Gulf, and Key West is a convenient Coaling station, Tampa Bay is also the Best Harbor on the Gulf by a wide margin, but that's it for Economic value. And well, the Filibusters are always welcome to try and take the land, assuming they don't die of Malaria or Yellow Fever in the Swamp somewhere.
The *US might want to take it, but they also might not consider it worth the Effort ITTL.

[Simon]

A century later a few hundred Confederate filibusters land and seize the island, crushing the Royal Navy and tens of thousands of British veterans.
Que? I'm assuming this is a reference to some really bad alternative history novel, or were you actually being serious?