ME 7: To Fill A GAP

[Othniel]

To talk about what should happen during the ten years in between now and a few weeks from now. ;)

Thread won't be officially open for a few weeks but lets have an out of Character discussion on the directions our countries are headed. Such as the Pan-American League, Colonies, possible problems, and other poltical and domestic issues for now.

July 10th in RL is when our Fast Forward is excepted to take place so lets start now on working the probable direction of the nations.

[Justin Pickard]

'The Kingdom of Greece' will become 'The Republic of Greece' after the unexpected death of King Constantine and a notably short (and peaceful) Civil War. By 1899, Athens will be a centre of trade and finance. Technologically, University of Athens / Greek Government will have an Analytical Engine of sorts which, although vaguely naff, has been used to conduct censuses and keep tabs on economic data. The government by 1899 will be a Social Democratic affair with a comprehensive welfare state. I forsee strong moves towards a dramatic development / modernisation of armed forces, with a small number of Land Ironclads, and dramatically more developed railway and telegraphy networks.

Can I have airships? And what's left of mainland European Turkey?

[Glen]

'The Kingdom of Greece' will become 'The Republic of Greece' after the unexpected death of King Constantine and a notably short (and peaceful) Civil War. By 1899, Athens will be a centre of trade and finance. Technologically, University of Athens / Greek Government will have an Analytical Engine of sorts which, although vaguely naff, has been used to conduct censuses and keep tabs on economic data. The government by 1899 will be a Social Democratic affair with a comprehensive welfare state. I forsee strong moves towards a dramatic development / modernisation of armed forces, with a small number of Land Ironclads, and dramatically more developed railway and telegraphy networks.

Can I have airships? And what's left of mainland European Turkey?

All fine by me. I especially favor Greek expansion into the remainder of European Turkey. When would this occur?

Of course, others may have other opinions on this.

And hopefully, the Greek Orthodox will be full participants in the Christian Communion :D

[Imajin]

Armenia-Trebizond will look to incorporation of Cyprus (a formal protectorate at the very least will be created) and wants a corridor between the original state and it's possesions on the Mediterannean. Cilicia will be incorporated into Armenia once King Constantine dies. They have no problem with Greek incorporation of European Turkey, as long as Greece has no problem with their rule of Greek Anatolia.

[Glen]

Armenia-Trebizond will look to incorporation of Cyprus (a formal protectorate at the very least will be created) and wants a corridor between the original state and it's possesions on the Mediterannean. Cilicia will be incorporated into Armenia once King Constantine dies. They have no problem with Greek incorporation of European Turkey, as long as Greece has no problem with their rule of Greek Anatolia.

Seems reasonable to me. What do the Greeks say?

[Othniel]

More intresting, what will the Persians attempt in that regard....

[Glen]

More intresting, what will the Persians attempt in that regard....

Ah, the Neo-Persian Empire? Don't know. Maybe nothing. Maybe they prefer to have Armenia-Trebezond as a buffer state between them and Europe proper....

[Justin Pickard]

Seems reasonable to me. What do the Greeks say?

The Greek People say "Oh, go on then."

[Othniel]

I just see conflict happening there.... Could just be me....

Then there is Egypt...well its not going to be stable, as well as the other Austrian possetions throughout the region. Draka is definately going to grow north, and SPWA is going to have some minor problems...

Pan-Americanism will either grow or break, but it is defintatly something that was there at this point in North America. The Dutch will become either an Austrian, British, German, or French Puppet, while Skadistan is mostly ignored whenever possible. Russia will have problems with the Japaness I bet... there are just problems that protray themselves all over Eastern Asia.... but should go over realitively fine.

New Ablion will have problems domestically, but will attempt to gain control of a bad situtation and make it better. Canada attempts annexation over New Ablion and you could see the War that Polk wanted happen.

[Imajin]

Karelia wants more land from Skandistan, and other than that, is going to try to promote settlement in New Guinea ('Come, be exposed to tropical diseases you've never heard of') and at least try to stabilize Skandistan.
Maybe some Portuguese sailors notice that the people of the Azores are speaking Latin?
New Gotland will have it's Maori problems, though it's now a US/Canada Protectorate. The Maoris basically control the interior of the southern island, and scattered parts of the Northern Island.

[Glen]

I just see conflict happening there.... Could just be me....

Don't know. I'm not really certain of the Persian strategy. Not all those places they are expanded into are going to welcome with open arms Persians just because they practice Islam. Heck, most of them outside of Mesopotamia think they practice the wrong brand of Islam at that.

Then there is Egypt...well its not going to be stable, as well as the other Austrian possetions throughout the region. Draka is definately going to grow north, and SPWA is going to have some minor problems...

Yes, Africa is going to be an interesting and unstable situation, but in slow motion from what I can glean. All the factions seem to be willing to take their time and the long view to dominance on the Continent. Which is another good reason to fastforward, otherwise we're not going to see much of anything of the potential for mischief there.

Pan-Americanism will either grow or break, but it is defintatly something that was there at this point in North America.

I think it will grow, unlike in OTL. The Americas have seen the stark difference between their own peaceful integration of the ISOT areas and the Chaos of Europe and the rampant land grabbing in the rest of the World. I think that they will pull even closer together as trade and mutual defense call to them. They will easily overtake Europe in this timeline as the Industrial powerhouses, particularly the USA, New Granada, and La Plata.

The Dutch will become either an Austrian, British, German, or French Puppet,

Actually, I think they will become a US puppet. :D

while Skadistan is mostly ignored whenever possible.

Ha! I bet the one thing that might bring the Oldenburgers and Prussians together faster would be a good old war to 'liberate' Scandinavia from the Skandistanis. Maybe they make a deal with the Karelians to carve it up.

Russia will have problems with the Japanese I bet... there are just problems that protray themselves all over Eastern Asia.... but should go over realitively fine.

Right, this is where the game of Empire will play out much more like OTL. Overall I think you will see a dance of land swaps and minor conflicts for the decade. Now then, once the Russians are finished digesting Northern China, they may start to think about Japan...

New Ablion will have problems domestically, but will attempt to gain control of a bad situtation and make it better. Canada attempts annexation over New Ablion and you could see the War that Polk wanted happen.

I don't think we will see war over New Ablion. I think the Americas defense agreements will make people not anxious to do so. I would think that either the Americans and Canadians make a deal to split up New Ablion along OTL borders and buy off the Ablionians (who do seem prone to bribery), or they agree to continue this game of one-upsmanship to woo them, but demand that the time for a vote be moved up significantly. Of course, those are only guesses.

[Othniel]

With one Exception... Victoria Island is filled with Indedance Movement-Kentuckians. ;) Canada wouldn't have many people that far west at the time of the ISOT anyways.... It will likely become unified in some way or anouther.

[Glen]

With one Exception... Victoria Island is filled with Indedance Movement-Kentuckians. ;) Canada wouldn't have many people that far west at the time of the ISOT anyways.... It will likely become unified in some way or anouther.

Unified with whom? I don't think it likely that the USA will let those parts of New Ablion that were in OTL American go without some effort to gain them.

[Glen]

BTW, just to mention it, but Jules Verne is alive and kicking in France in 1886...

[Glen]

One of the submarines tooling around in 1899?

[Othniel]

Unified with whom? I don't think it likely that the USA will let those parts of New Ablion that were in OTL American go without some effort to gain them.
New Ablion would unify with themselves. The USA would probabaly like the Pacfic coast, but the number of Scadinavians in New Ablion is surprising. There was a vote a few years ago to call themselves New Angles...

[Bulgaroktonos]

Britain won't have any problems with those proposals about Armenia, provided the Co-Protectorate of Constantinople is respected, that being the area around the Dardanelles, Constantinople, Nicaea, the Marmara, etc.

We also have direct control over the Ionian Islands, so do not forget that.

I see Britain becoming as rather isolationist, refusing to get involved in the affairs of the Continent for the most part. Of course France and Austria will be grow together in an effort to combat the German threat. Britain will be backing the Confederation over the French and Prussians, as Egypt is a huge blow to British security over the Canal.....Expect to see PM Cecil fortify the Canal even more than it already is.

Britain is going to extend its control over Uganda, and hopefully get a piece of the West Coast of Africa, perhaps Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Cameroon, those areas.......

Britain will also be building their navies at an even greater pace. With the Imperial invasion, and the risk facing the Canal, Britain sees the strategic need for an even larger fleet overseas, capable of hurling back any invader. Further, with Canada given virtual freedom, Britain need not worry about defending Canadian waters so much.

The King will still make an annual visit to Canada to simply show the Canadians that Britain still feels they are part of the Empire, and want the Canadians to feel the same way.

King Alexander will die in 1897, and will be replaced by his son, Edward. Edward is a sharp king, and very charismatic, as his father was. He will be crowned twice, once in Britain, for the Kingship of Great Britain and Ireland, and then again in New Delhi as Emperor of India. By this time India is well on its way towards Dominionship, as is Australia. Ireland has been put up for consideration.

More later

[Glen]

Hmm, who might this combined airfleet be attacking? Those pesky Draka?

[DuQuense]

Canada wouldn't have many people that far west at the time of the ISOT anyways....

Notice in the post of nation, one of the difference was that Canada had made affords to push new Immigrants west. and I have multi millionaire Jorgensen offering 1% mortgage loans to Canadians to move to New Albion.

At first most of them will settle in the north of the 49th as Vancouver will be Canada's de facto main west Coast port. but then they will start moving south.

Canada will continue trying to get a Canadian appointed as British commissioner.

[Lauranthalas]

Russia will be stabilizing northern CHina and raise armies from those who surrendered. they will rule with terror at the beginning and then losen off to make the people listen to them because the people will then know that they have the chance of obeying or being terrorized.

They will further go on upgrading the railroad systems and upgrade the army epsecially with technology. primarily there Russia will go to the introduction of machine guns and small armored vehicles to destroy barbed wire and trench systems. the navy will be rather staying the same with the exception of a few dreadnoughts being build and a number of torpedoboats.

They will also begin on starting a airforce which will have primarily the missions of espionage for the army.

Diplomatically:
Trying to get closer ties to the Empire of CHina, Austria, Prussia/Northern Germna COnfederation, Draka, and Karelia primarily. They will try to keep out of wars as far as possible though humiliations will not be accepted too good.

[DuQuense]

With the rising sun on the one, I would bet on the wicked Russians, Kick the Russians out , lets hear it for Co-Prosperity. Of course some are more prosperous than others.

[Lauranthalas]

With the rising sun on the one, I would bet on the wicked Russians, Kick the Russians out , lets hear it for Co-Prosperity. Of course some are more prosperous than others.
That's not wicked. You don't know what wicked is if you talk about me

[perdedor99]

First couple of years will be digesting the new territories but at the same time continue a slowly expansion north. Border clashes will be common by end of the decade must likley with Austria and the Spaniards.

Will be working in upgrading the armed forces also.

[Galbatorix]

More intresting, what will the Persians attempt in that regard....
they want to be cover in any of his borders. they are having a friendly relationship with the armenians. they will go to consolidate their middle east dominion, try to participate in the control of suez and the dardaneles. they will try to get some aliance with some other european powers austria, the british or the rusians. when they feel sure they will show again their teeth and probably move into africa.

i will think about religious problems inside: shiite-sunnite.


----------

the peruvians are going to suffer an internal crisis. once the viceroy dies, there will happen a revolution and probably civil war. the rebels will demand democratic modifications similiar to La Plata, anothers will want to create a democratic monarchy (maybe aussey can give them a nice candidate) and others will want a more traditional turn and have an autoritarian king looking to the chinese emperor. america will end their peaceful period.

[Glen]

the peruvians are going to suffer an internal crisis. once the viceroy dies, there will happen a revolution and probably civil war. the rebels will demand democratic modifications similiar to La Plata,

Actually, I KNOW New Granada will intervene here long before it comes to blows. Probably New Granada and La Plata cooperate to stabilize the situation very quickly. Both New Granada and La Plata will want more democratic governance, so that will likely win the day. New Granada wants to keep at least the seeming of continuity with the old Viceroyalty, so I would expect the Cortes to be retained but revamped into a true legislative body. The new Viceroy will likely be a figure elected by the Peruvian Cortes.

anothers will want to create a democratic monarchy (maybe aussey can give them a nice candidate)

Well, although their plans for a revived New Spain have been quashed, the Peruvians might find some allies in New Granada for the establishment of a democratic monarchy, though they will want it under one of the New Granadan Royal Family (though that didn't work too well for them last time :D )

Spain would probably love to incorporate Peru into the Kingdom, or have one of their scions on the throne of a Kingdom of Peru, but they will not do anything to push for that since it would not be worth the risk of alienating New Granada and La Plata. If they see an opportunity to sway the debate towards their way of thinking, fine. Otherwise, they will reluctantly sit this one out.

and others will want a more traditional turn and have an autoritarian king looking to the chinese emperor.

They can look, but New Granada for one will not tolerate an Oriental Despot in the Americas, and quite frankly I don't think a single nation in the Americas will be willing to see that, either (well, maybe Rio Sonora or Rio Grande, or a militant independent Canada, but no others.)

america will end their peaceful period.

If the Viceroy is known to be old and/or in poor health, I suspect that there are already plans by many people to help Peru through their transition period<eg>. In the end, none of Peru's neighbors would benefit from instability in Peru, so I think you would see the situation settle down quickly. A hiccup at most in the Pax Americanas....

We can talk via PM how Peru might evolve and how the New Granadans and Spaniards react to events over the next decade. Also should get Condi and Oth to give input.

[DuQuense]

:eek: I have to start using those smilies more :rolleyes:

[Othniel]

Britain is going to extend its control over Uganda, and hopefully get a piece of the West Coast of Africa, perhaps Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Cameroon, those areas.......


I more see them going to the Eastern part of West Africa. There are already efforts to push into more fertile land and since we have a direct connection along the West Coast we'll probablely get Sierra Leon. However GB will probably ended up with the Gold and Ivory Coasts as we end up subdising the land of internal Africa. I already let a claim to allowing Europeans use the coast as resource colonies with an agreement that we would buy it off them in 10 to 20 years. I also except to graviate more inland into the useless regions of the Saharra.

[Othniel]

I also see the US going away from airships instead of towards them. I think Paris will start towards building radio, and the West Germans will start immigrating more and more to the US. I also see a rapid change in possesions. For example, will the Brits keep Burmuda? Iceland has been offered at by the Austrians, Kreilans, USA, and the British and could go for a very high price. Maybe even it changes hands a few times and the US ends up buying a potential Far European State. An Alantic Hawaii at a higher price than the first nation that bought it.


As for New Ablion I see an effectively split vote come the election next, prehaps a thrid party on status ends in office. The New Ablion residents might tend towards the Laisse Party caused by the immigrints and result in an office that is more favorable to keeping things on the status quo.

[Othniel]

For some reason I see the Mexican Republics being absorbed by New Granada, and the USA.... ;)

[Glen]

I also see the US going away from airships instead of towards them.

Really? Why? I would think they would go in for them as a way to travel across their broad nation without having to wait to build rail connections to every part. Not a replacement of rail, to be sure, but perhaps an adjunct.

I think Paris will start towards building radio,

Sure, the Eiffel Tower makes a great antenna!

and the West Germans will start immigrating more and more to the US.

Yes. But I see a fair number also migrating to the Republic of Rio Grande.

I also see a rapid change in possesions. For example, will the Brits keep Burmuda?

Probably.

Iceland has been offered at by the Austrians, Kreilans, USA, and the British and could go for a very high price. Maybe even it changes hands a few times and the US ends up buying a potential Far European State. An Alantic Hawaii at a higher price than the first nation that bought it.

I think the USA should buy it right off the bat! It would make a great link to their protectorate of the Netherlands! :D

As for New Ablion I see an effectively split vote come the election next, prehaps a thrid party on status ends in office. The New Ablion residents might tend towards the Laisse Party caused by the immigrints and result in an office that is more favorable to keeping things on the status quo.

Okay. I really wish someone would post the positions of ME7 Britain and the USA on the whole New Ablion situation. When is that referendum supposed to be, Oth? 1938 or some such crazy date? At least we have an idea what Canada thinks of it!

[Othniel]

1920 is when its suppose to happen.

[Glen]

For some reason I see the Mexican Republics being absorbed by New Granada, and the USA.... ;)

No, you won't! New Granada likes having those two states right where they are. Rather than outright annexation, I think you will just see closer integration and cooperation. The New Granadans are going to work behind the scenes to both stabilize and democratize the two North Mexican Republics. I imagine that the USA will cooperate with that. After all two small, stable nations where the former Mexico used to border them will be a much better situation....

New Granada is done with growth. They do not want any more territory! And I don't think the 'New Hispania' faction will be able to get the rest of the government to budge on that, even over a decade.

[Othniel]

Come now, the US is still likely to have Imperial Ambtions, and New Granada will soon sway to their own manifest Destiny, just as they got their first taste with the Aztecs... :)

[Glen]

1920 is when its suppose to happen.

I would think that still a very long time til a referendum....

[Glen]

Come now, the US is still likely to have Imperial Ambtions, and New Granada will soon sway to their own manifest Destiny, just as they got their first taste with the Aztecs... :)

I would think the US would be more interested in acquiring New Ablion before the Mexican Republics.

As for New Granada, we have fulfilled our manifest destiny in reaching the Amazon. We don't want to expand our land border in the North any further. We dislike having to patrol land borders. At least the Amazon is a body of water....

[Othniel]

I would think the US would be more interested in acquiring New Ablion before the Mexican Republics.

As for New Granada, we have fulfilled our manifest destiny in reaching the Amazon. We don't want to expand our land border in the North any further. We dislike having to patrol land borders. At least the Amazon is a body of water....
I serious doubt that the majority of your people want to stay in hurricane country. :D

[DuQuense]

I see New Albion being split eventually but not necessary the 49 longitude as IOTL.

[Othniel]

I see New Albion being split eventually but not necessary the 49 longitude as IOTL.
54th parrelle more likely. ;)

[DuQuense]

I see Austria moving to develop the New Territories in Europe, and tightly integrating them into Austria. While the African territories will be developed as a Separate Country A Dual or even triple crown Egypt-Libya, & and Ethiopia-Chad, with Sudan divided between the two.

And Yes, Hungary is going to be the Problem Child in this.

[Othniel]

Population Growth:

Ok, I'm going to ask for a calculation on how much our populations will grow and the effects on the millitaries.

[Glen]

I serious doubt that the majority of your people want to stay in hurricane country. :D

Why not? Florida is smack dab in the middle of hurricane contry and people have been flocking to it for decades<g>.

BTW, I'm a native born Floridian, as was my Father before me, and my Grandmother went to elementary school in Coral Gables, FL. There are a number of tricks in construction and in terms of behavior that can see you through Hurricanes. The New Granadans have had centuries to perfect this, and a government that actually cares about its people enough to see them implemented.

[Glen]

I see New Albion being split eventually but not necessary the 49 longitude as IOTL.

I would say that if it is split, it will be EXACTLY as it was in OTL. The POD for both ME7 Canada and USA are well after that division was agreed to, so a natural point of agreement for the two nations would be those borders if New Ablion were split. No, I think either New Ablion continues on this referendum track with it joining one, the other, or staying independent depending on the will of their electorate, or the US and Canada/Britain agree to split it on OTL lines. I think the USA would settle for nothing less, certainly. Why, were you suggesting the USA should take more? :D

[Glen]

Population Growth:

Ok, I'm going to ask for a calculation on how much our populations will grow and the effects on the millitaries.

Hmmm, anyone have stats on population growth in the late 19th Century?

[Glen]

Come now, the US is still likely to have Imperial Ambtions, and New Granada will soon sway to their own manifest Destiny, just as they got their first taste with the Aztecs... :)

Curse you, Oth. Now I have found a few more specks that I need to collect to protect my precious New Granada. Curse you! ;)

[DuQuense]

If Washington Seattle Region votes overwhelming for Canada while Franklin [Vancouver] Island votes overwhelming for the US. ?Will whe force each group to join the other side.?

Will the people in 1920 care that 80 years earlier Britain and the US made a Agreement, if the people are voting against the Agreement.

of course whe all know that in most matters our vote doesn't Count. But here it should.

[Glen]

If Washington Seattle Region votes overwhelming for Canada while Franklin [Vancouver] Island votes overwhelming for the US. ?Will whe force each group to join the other side.?

Will the people in 1920 care that 80 years earlier Britain and the US made a Agreement, if the people are voting against the Agreement.

of course whe all know that in most matters our vote doesn't Count. But here it should.

I think if I understand Oth's story about New Ablion, the vote in 1920 will be a nationwide (New Ablion that is) one that is essentially a referendum on Joining Canada, Joining the USA, or Independence. The votes won't be considered on a county by county basis, but as a whole, and the majority (or plurality?) wins.

Is that right Oth?

[DuQuense]

That is what the Agreement was back in 1840's, I am simply pointing out that by 1920, People may want a different arrangement.

[General_Paul]

Soon to come in the next decade in Japan: The further industrialization of Manchuria, in tangent with more military spending. With some of the largest Pig Iron, and Coal deposits in all of China, Japan's gonna do some mighty fine expanding of their navy, and army :D Now, with Korea, a Japanese metalurgist discovers a strange metal (Titanium alloy anyone?), with some interesting prospects. He begins to theorize using titanium (He calls it Moon Steel, saying it is so strong, it can pierce the heavens), in artillery shells, to line the edges of the shells, saying they can slice through ships armor with this wonder metal in the shells. If that sounds too unbelievable, I can change it to something like Uranium, which is as odd as Titanium, and as readily available in Manchuria and Korea (Crude sabat rounds anyone?)

Also, further colonization of Korea and Manchuria will follow. The recent appropriated S. and C. Pacific islands will be seeing an increase in troop garrisons, and ship patrols. The Japanese navy will begin a crash course in expansionism, as well as the army. The army will have the designs for a new rifle (OTL Type 99). The navy will begin expanding its use of Pre-Dreadnaughts, and dreadnaught class battleships, as well as expanding its merchantman fleet.

The German Confederation will see the use of the newest designed infantry rifle (The K98 type bolt action rifle, designed by Mauser), as well as the introduction of the Luger Pistol. Designs for machine guns (Maybe knock off Maxim Machine Guns?) As well as designs for othe types of machine guns will begin to take hold in the German psyche. The German Confederation will seek to expand its lands in an assault on the Skandistan held area of Denmark in the year 1889-1891, which will, by Mod ruling, be either taken, or not. The German navy will go through the same crash course expanding as the Japanese navy does, and the damage done during the Oldenberg-Prussian war will be rebuilt.

The Confederation will make attempts at further unifying the German peoples under the Confederation flag (OTL's German Flag), and will begin to actively recruit for the unified Confederation armed forces. Oth will follow up with his areas of the Oldenberg Confederation.

[DuQuense]

The standard machine-gun used by the German Army during the early stages of the First World War was the Maschinengewehr. An almost direct copy of the Maxim Machine-Gun, the Maschinengewehr fired 7.92mm ammunition from a 250-round fabric belt. The German Army deployed over 12,000 of these machine-guns on the Western Front during August 1914. It had a practical range of 2,200 yards and an extreme range of 4,000 yards.

[Glen]

Soon to come in the next decade in Japan: The further industrialization of Manchuria, in tangent with more military spending. With some of the largest Pig Iron, and Coal deposits in all of China, Japan's gonna do some mighty fine expanding of their navy, and army :D

As we would expect :D

Now, with Korea, a Japanese metalurgist discovers a strange metal (Titanium alloy anyone?), with some interesting prospects. He begins to theorize using titanium (He calls it Moon Steel, saying it is so strong, it can pierce the heavens), in artillery shells, to line the edges of the shells, saying they can slice through ships armor with this wonder metal in the shells. If that sounds too unbelievable, I can change it to something like Uranium, which is as odd as Titanium, and as readily available in Manchuria and Korea (Crude sabat rounds anyone?)

This seems a bit too advanced, even for our advanced timeline. Anyone have opinions or references to back up the use of titanium or uranium in this fashion? I wouldn't have our tech really going past WWI unless there were a special reason for it (like it was just TOO cool to not have :D

Also, further colonization of Korea and Manchuria will follow. The recent appropriated S. and C. Pacific islands will be seeing an increase in troop garrisons, and ship patrols. The Japanese navy will begin a crash course in expansionism, as well as the army. The army will have the designs for a new rifle (OTL Type 99). The navy will begin expanding its use of Pre-Dreadnaughts, and dreadnaught class battleships, as well as expanding its merchantman fleet.

I would expect all this as well.

The German Confederation will see the use of the newest designed infantry rifle (The K98 type bolt action rifle, designed by Mauser), as well as the introduction of the Luger Pistol. Designs for machine guns (Maybe knock off Maxim Machine Guns?) As well as designs for othe types of machine guns will begin to take hold in the German psyche.

Seems okay to me. Anyone else?

The German Confederation will seek to expand its lands in an assault on the Skandistan held area of Denmark in the year 1889-1891, which will, by Mod ruling, be either taken, or not.

I knew they'd go after Skandistan! It just makes too much sense. But will you stop with Denmark, I wonder? I would say if you were successful there that you would go for more of Scandinavia. Just my impression.

The German navy will go through the same crash course expanding as the Japanese navy does, and the damage done during the Oldenberg-Prussian war will be rebuilt.

Will you? I thought you were going to establish your Germany without the 'mistake' of going for naval power or overseas dominions. If you build up your navy like that, I can see you alienating Britain. Not that it wouldn't happen, and feel free to do so. It's just interesting, is all.

The Confederation will make attempts at further unifying the German peoples under the Confederation flag (OTL's German Flag), and will begin to actively recruit for the unified Confederation armed forces. Oth will follow up with his areas of the Oldenberg Confederation.

Having a conquered Denmark ceded to the Oldenburg portion of the German Confederation might help to ease lingering tensions a bit.

[Bulgaroktonos]

This seems a bit too advanced, even for our advanced timeline. Anyone have opinions or references to back up the use of titanium or uranium in this fashion? I wouldn't have our tech really going past WWI unless there were a special reason for it (like it was just TOO cool to not have :D

I agree here. A bit too advanced.

I knew they'd go after Skandistan! It just makes too much sense. But will you stop with Denmark, I wonder? I would say if you were successful there that you would go for more of Scandinavia. Just my impression.

Well, I think it should be more of a pressure based thing, in which the Skandistanis cede Denmark, rather than an invasion, because an invasion would spur numerous party involvment......

Will you? I thought you were going to establish your Germany without the 'mistake' of going for naval power or overseas dominions. If you build up your navy like that, I can see you alienating Britain. Not that it wouldn't happen, and feel free to do so. It's just interesting, is all.

That's exactly what I thought......

[perdedor99]

1) the titanium bit a little too much.

2) Skandistan could be forced to cede Jutland without war or we could be in the Jutland War, with the Germans on one side and the British on the other.

3) In regard to the fleet is doing the same mistake of OTL Germany. In this world his Germany do not have the prestige of OTL Germany and need Great Britain for their continued existance.

[Galbatorix]

I see Austria moving to develop the New Territories in Europe, and tightly integrating them into Austria. While the African territories will be developed as a Separate Country A Dual or even triple crown Egypt-Libya, & and Ethiopia-Chad, with Sudan divided between the two.

And Yes, Hungary is going to be the Problem Child in this.
i though austria and france were going to divide the papal states. leaving a town-size nation for the pope, as in OTL

[Glen]

i though austria and france were going to divide the papal states. leaving a town-size nation for the pope, as in OTL

Who knows? We'll have to see. Hopefully, Ward will be able to take France through the fastforward so we'll see. I think they are safe for 1886, however.

[DuQuense]

If France wants to sent a special Ambassador to Austria to talk about Italy, Austria is always willing to listen. But Austria is not going to initiate something like this.

[Imajin]

If a war does break out between Skandistan (and presumably the UK) and Germany, Karelia will probably jump in for more land... They simply don't want to start the war.

[Glen]

If France wants to sent a special Ambassador to Austria to talk about Italy, Austria is always willing to listen. But Austria is not going to initiate something like this.

As far as I am concerned, the Papal States serve as a nice buffer between France and Austria. Now who is Pope may be interesting in future....

[Glen]

If a war does break out between Skandistan (and presumably the UK) and Germany, Karelia will probably jump in for more land... They simply don't want to start the war.

Hmm, maybe a partition of Skandistan between Karelia and Prussia? With the British getting bought off somehow?

[Othniel]

Don't talk about Condi's nations.

[Galbatorix]

let's wait for him. maybe something can be settled.

[Glen]

Don't talk about Condi's nations.

let's wait for him. maybe something can be settled.

You talking about me?

I was just idly speculating as to what might happen with Skandistan. I have nothing to do with it either way. And nothing here is talk, anyway. Nothing is going to happen to anyone until the fastforward starts (or a last minute action in the regular threads) but my understanding is that this is nothing but discussion here.

The only nation I'm speaking for for Condi is La Plata and Leo XIII in his religious roles...and trying to do as little of that as possible until he returns.

[Imajin]

Perhaps Skandistan will become like Poland. Karelia can be the Russia, who is just being greedy, Germany the Prussia, who starts with wanting just one chunk of land (Jutland), and Britain the Austria, who wants to stay out and respect Skandistani Soverignty, but is forced to take command of the coatal areas and Norway to keep the Karelians from having ports right on the North Sea...

...Though I don't know... The era for Partitioning Up countries probably is over by 1886. Then again, France and Spain divyed up Morocco past this, in the early 1900s...

[perdedor99]

Perhaps Skandistan will become like Poland. Karelia can be the Russia, who is just being greedy, Germany the Prussia, who starts with wanting just one chunk of land (Jutland), and Britain the Austria, who wants to stay out and respect Skandistani Soverignty, but is forced to take command of the coatal areas and Norway to keep the Karelians from having ports right on the North Sea...

...Though I don't know... The era for Partitioning Up countries probably is over by 1886. Then again, France and Spain divyed up Morocco past this, in the early 1900s...

Skandistan is not stable enough to last long without British protection. I think it will be eventually partitioned. But just my opinion.

[DuQuense]

Of Course Muslim Sweden may have a little to say about all this when they get organized.

[perdedor99]

I'm trying to end the year and I have some things I need to wrap before the fast forward.

[Imajin]

Of Course Muslim Sweden may have a little to say about all this when they get organized.
And so we have to do this now, before they get organized- As I said, Partition of Poland.. Poland was not Partitioned because it was weak, it was partitioned because it was weak, but was trying to change that...

[Condottiero]

I'm back :eek:

My plans for Skandistan after reading your ideas could be the following:

I am going to have different rebel emirates, some of your nations may ally or put under their protection or even sovereignity. However they will have to deal with the local authorities, that's me…er… my emirs. They are waiting for your offers. One more thing, if the Oldenburgers or the Prussians annex Jutland, part of the population there could migrate to Draka.

[perdedor99]

I'm back :eek:

My plans for Skandistan after reading your ideas could be the following:

I am going to have different rebel emirates, some of your nations may ally or put under their protection or even sovereignity. However they will have to deal with the local authorities, that's me…er… my emirs. They are waiting for your offers. One more thing, if the Oldenburgers or the Prussians annex Jutland, part of the population there could migrate to Draka.

So I guess the civil war continues past 1886. I guess everyone check with Condi during the fast forward to see what happen to the small emirates. But I see with the country being fragmented refugees will come from all over Skandistan to escape persecution to the land of the Free, the only place where they can have as many wives as they can keep and the chance to reach Walhalla, The Draka Republic. :D

[Glen]

Some things to consider before the fastforward...

La Plata, Australia, New Gottland, all have up to 10s of thousands of citizens who were brutalized, violated, and subjugated during the Invasion of the Imperials, and almost all of the survivors still have brands on their faces to remind them and the world of it. You're going to want to make some reference to how you're going to deal with that. Draka has less of an issue because most of their Citizens were slaughtered instead of enslaved, and they've been slaughtering themselves many of the serfs that fell under Imperial control.

Also something the Americas, Britain, and Draka have to deal with are the approximately 500,000 Imperial survivors in Antarctica, probably much less now since its been months and attrition has taken its toll also. However, it's still going to amount to a few hundred thousand that have to be dealt with in some ways. The Draka are going to do the obvious, I imagine, and just make them all serfs. For most of the Imperials left, this will be a step up in the world, but these are not nice oppressed peoples, they are as twisted as their masters, and Draka is taking a serpent to their breast. For the British, and especially the Americas, this is going to be a difficult issue to handle.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Britain is probably just going to let them freeze to death. We've got our claim. We'll probably send a some ships south with some Royal Marines, gather what information we can, take some prisoners, and then let them starve.

[Matt]

Britain is probably just going to let them freeze to death. We've got our claim. We'll probably send a some ships south with some Royal Marines, gather what information we can, take some prisoners, and then let them starve.


I pretty sure that would be the American attitude, rape them of what resources we can, and let them whittle up and die.

[Glen]

I pretty sure that would be the American attitude, rape them of what resources we can, and let them whittle up and die.

I have a feeling that what survivors there are are going to become the New Granadans' problem. They seem to be the only ones who give a damn that these are people, no matter how dispicable.

You may want to consider getting children out, at least...oh well, I suspect this too will fall on the shoulders of the New Granadan branch of the Catholic Church.

[Lauranthalas]

Russia would offer to take them.

Basically they will officially be given asylum but actually given then the choice between serfdom or army.

[Glen]

Russia would offer to take them.

Basically they will officially be given asylum but actually given then the choice between serfdom or army.

We'd probably ship them off, since we would take you at your word, initially. Just try REALLY hard to keep it from us what you're really doing.

Note, most of these will be industrial slaves, used to working in factories.

The Jannisaries mostly were overseas during the plague, and the survivors in Antarctica have either bugged out or are fighting a guerilla action, no surrender style.

There are also a significant minority of herd slaves. These people are basically savage, kept that way by the imperials.

[Lauranthalas]

We'd probably ship them off, since we would take you at your word, initially. Just try REALLY hard to keep it from us what you're really doing.

Note, most of these will be industrial slaves, used to working in factories.

The Jannisaries mostly were overseas during the plague, and the survivors in Antarctica have either bugged out or are fighting a guerilla action, no surrender style.

There are also a significant minority of herd slaves. These people are basically savage, kept that way by the imperials.
Yes they would be working in factories if they choose this way. they will live close by and get basically something like meal tickets which help them survive but they will be utterly poor and if they refuse working then they will be punished with even less food.

[Glen]

Yes they would be working in factories if they choose this way. they will live close by and get basically something like meal tickets which help them survive but they will be utterly poor and if they refuse working then they will be punished with even less food.

Well, that sounds like its about as good as you treat your own people ;)

BTW, you'll want to keep a close eye on these folks. I repeat, they are NOT nice people, despite having been the oppressed ones by and large in their society.

I actually can see Russia in the fastforward emancipating the serfs, which would help her modernize. Actually, all those industrially trained Imperial slaves will help you modernize as well, IF you can keep from having to kill them to save your society. They really are very rotten.

[Lauranthalas]

Well, that sounds like its about as good as you treat your own people ;)

BTW, you'll want to keep a close eye on these folks. I repeat, they are NOT nice people, despite having been the oppressed ones by and large in their society.

I actually can see Russia in the fastforward emancipating the serfs, which would help her modernize. Actually, all those industrially trained Imperial slaves will help you modernize as well, IF you can keep from having to kill them to save your society. They really are very rotten.
I'm thinking about slowly raising the wages with the industrialization so that they stay satisfied. I will try to keep the raising of wages by about .5 - 1% over the deflation rate. so they will see that it is going to become better but actually it doesn't help 'em very much

[Glen]

I think it will be interesting to see the evolution of the American South during the fastforward. The New Granadan bankers will be issuing a lot of small loans to poor Southerners, both black and white. I think that sharecropping is going to slowly be replaced by independent small farmers.

I also see there being an initial influx of American blacks from nearby states to Granadan Florida, where discrimination isn't really based on race anymore (there is still the divide between the dons and the regular people, and between the rich and the poor). However, there will only be so many opportunities for them there (still quite a lot), and more will end up staying in the South due to those small loans.

As there was a less harsh post-Civil War era on the South, I think that while discrimination and prejudice will unfortunately continue, it will be much less virulent and there won't be the same degree of Jim Crow laws or segregation. There will be a few duels however between New Granadan businessmen in the South that some might mistake for American Blacks getting 'uppity'.

I think also contributing to the lessening of racial tensions in the American South in the fastforward will be the migration of the smaller numbers of diehard Confederates and racists to Draka, who are already working hard to attract them. There is a large number of Draka only a little more than one generation removed from the American Confederates of their tl, and there will be a lot to attract the diehards there. But again, these will actually be less than they would have been if Draka and OTL post-reconstruction South were ISOTed together due to the less harsh post-ACW period.

[Glen]

I'm thinking about slowly raising the wages with the industrialization so that they stay satisfied. I will try to keep the raising of wages by about .5 - 1% over the deflation rate. so they will see that it is going to become better but actually it doesn't help 'em very much

In material terms, no it won't. But in terms of morale it will mean something, and that is important, too. You will be instilling the idea that things CAN get better, and that is something new to this tl's peasant Russian psyche.

[Lauranthalas]

In material terms, no it won't. But in terms of morale it will mean something, and that is important, too. You will be instilling the idea that things CAN get better, and that is something new to this tl's peasant Russian psyche.
exactly thats why I am doing it.

[DuQuense]

MBarry needs to start thinking about the 1888 election's. He is going to have William Jennings Bryan, with his Gold Speech. But whe also have all that imperial Wealth.

Canada is going to Suggest that [larger Supply = lower price] the price of gold be lowered from 16$/Oz to 12$/oz [Britain from 4 to 3 pounds/ oz] over the next four years.

[Glen]

MBarry needs to start thinking about the 1888 election's. He is going to have William Jennings Bryan, with his Gold Speech. But whe also have all that imperial Wealth.

William Jennings Bryan can talk all he wants about Gold. Fact is he is still a Democrat, and though there's been a less harsh post-war period in this tl, there's still no way a Democrat is going to win the presidency yet.

Canada is going to Suggest that [larger Supply = lower price] the price of gold be lowered from 16$/Oz to 12$/oz [Britain from 4 to 3 pounds/ oz] over the next four years.

And what is your goal with that?

[DuQuense]

Whe [Finance Ministers] all agree on a common strategy or there will be Panics and Bank Runs all over the World. [30's Great Depression] Canada doesn't think this will absorb all the new Wealth, but should make it more manageable.

[Glen]

Whe [Finance Ministers] all agree on a common strategy or there will be Panics and Bank Runs all over the World. [30's Great Depression] Canada doesn't think this will absorb all the new Wealth, but should make it more manageable.

Hmmm, that could be. Talk to New Granada. They have a huge banking system AND a lot of that loot is coming into their country from private entrepreneurs....

Do the rest of you agree that Canada's way is a good way to handle the situation?

[Matt]

Bryan can spin a good yarn, but with the loss of much of the South in the ISOT, the only serious political base for the Democratic party has vanished. Virginia, Tennesee, and North Carolina all have more Republican tendencies then OTL, leaving only S. Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and the Rump Florida(who is subject to an emergency Census before the election).

A new party is about to merge from the scene though, don't you worry. And they have just the charismatic leader to take them into the White House within the decade ;)

[Matt]

And on a final note, I don't know if I would consider my reconstruction less harsh, as different. For Blacks it's certainly better, and in the more moderate Southron states it was, but there is some resentment in the deep South. Fortunatly they can shove off, and goto Draka now.

[Matt]

Oh and on a super Final Note

OTH I WANT TO BUY ICELAND BEFORE THE FASTFOWARD

[Glen]

Oh and on a super Final Note

OTH I WANT TO BUY ICELAND BEFORE THE FASTFOWARD

Ah, American Iceland and Netherlands....has a nice ring to it, yes?

[Glen]

On a completely different topic....

Once we complete the fastforward, we probably should start new threads with Posting of Nations, Armed Forces, and Maps. Call the new threads...

ME1899 ?

[Matt]

I was redesigning my navy, and the thought just entered my mind.....


hmmmm

[Bulgaroktonos]

MBarry, Buying far off Iceland? Seems a bit of a mistake to me.

[Glen]

MBarry, Buying far off Iceland? Seems a bit of a mistake to me.

But its ICELAND, man! Think of all the ICE! And so much closer to home for the Americans than Antarctica....wait a minute....there actually isn't all that much ice in Iceland, is there? NOOOoooooo :eek:

[Glen]

You know, Condi, its a shame we never really got to play out the meeting of the Three Carlos'. Got so busy with other stuff. Maybe we can just make references to it?

What is the Carlist Carlos like? Carlos II of New Granada is a rather affable fellow, a bit irreverant when he can get away with it, but knows how to behave when necessary, very diplomatic really. I don't have a clue what Carlos the VI or VII of Spain and Brazil is like. My first impression, however, is that he's a bit of a bore, even if he is a young man, and he seems to have his hands full with his new queen.

I bet the Spanish Carlos would be interested in some future date in a dynastic marriage between your heirs and theirs. Of course, they haven't had any yet. What about your Carlos? Any kids at home? Fortunately, Carlos II heir apparent is already married, pre-ISOT.

[Condottiero]

You know, Condi, its a shame we never really got to play out the meeting of the Three Carlos'. Got so busy with other stuff. Maybe we can just make references to it?

What is the Carlist Carlos like? Carlos II of New Granada is a rather affable fellow, a bit irreverant when he can get away with it, but knows how to behave when necessary, very diplomatic really. I don't have a clue what Carlos the VI or VII of Spain and Brazil is like. My first impression, however, is that he's a bit of a bore, even if he is a young man, and he seems to have his hands full with his new queen.

I bet the Spanish Carlos would be interested in some future date in a dynastic marriage between your heirs and theirs. Of course, they haven't had any yet. What about your Carlos? Any kids at home? Fortunately, Carlos II heir apparent is already married, pre-ISOT.

Carlos I of China and VI of Spain is a totalitarian guy. Like OTL carlists he is loyal to the motto "God, Nation and King". He thinks that he is king by God's will and that democracy only leads to anarchy and atheism. He would feel comfortable by other totalitarian leaders but not by ilustrated ones. He is going to feel rather disappointed by the new ideas coming from the Papal States...

[Glen]

Carlos I of China and VI of Spain is a totalitarian guy. Like OTL carlists he is loyal to the motto "God, Nation and King". He thinks that he is king by God's will and that democracy only leads to anarchy and atheism. He would feel comfortable by other totalitarian leaders but not by ilustrated ones. He is going to feel rather disappointed by the new ideas coming from the Papal States...

Yeah, and I am certain he didn't hit it off with either of the other Carlos' then, eh?

Carlos II is the exact opposite of totalitarian. He is an enlightened, liberal ruler who believes in a balance of power between the various institutions of the nation (basically checks and balances, with a good dose of democracy thrown in).

Even Carlos of Spain and Brazil is moderately in favor of the law applying to king as well as subjects, and granting reasonable amounts of rights.

So our Carlos' run the political spectrum. Carlos of New Granada is liberal bordering almost on democratic, Carlos of Spain and Brazil is a moderate (more or less), and Carlos of the Philippines and China is a conservative absolute ruler.

BTW, I bet that Carlos VI of Spain title didn't make Carlos of Spain and Brazil very comfortable (I think he's Carlos VII).

[Glen]

On to another matter....we need to have some sort of rules of thumb to determine how quickly and how much our respective countries can build up their militaries during the fastforward.

Any ideas?

Overall, New Granada is likely to try and keep their Navy at about half the size of the largest Navy in the World (probably still will be the UK). Also expect them to get into the Airship business big time (useful for naval surveillance, weather reporting, and island hopping). We'll probably work with La Plata, the USA, and Canada on 'tank' and sub design, but we'll only have small amounts of each (but the latest and greatest, we New Granadans like shiny new toys). Also we'll probably go back to having a small but well trained and equipped army, and an oversized marine force. Oh, and we'll continue refining the gunboat concept for river, canal, and coastal uses. Probably not so big into torpedo boats, going more for big main line battleships and cruisers, and some torpedo boat destroyers. We like big tough ships, to give our men the best hopes of surviving the battle and coming home.

[Condottiero]

No. He considers that being Emperor of China could be a means of obtaining international prestige and power to claim the Spanish Throne. But during the meeting with the other two Carlos he did not mention it. So do not tell them, please... :rolleyes:

[Condottiero]

On to another matter....we need to have some sort of rules of thumb to determine how quickly and how much our respective countries can build up their militaries during the fastforward.

Any ideas?

Overall, New Granada is likely to try and keep their Navy at about half the size of the largest Navy in the World (probably still will be the UK). Also expect them to get into the Airship business big time (useful for naval surveillance, weather reporting, and island hopping). We'll probably work with La Plata, the USA, and Canada on 'tank' and sub design, but we'll only have small amounts of each (but the latest and greatest, we New Granadans like shiny new toys). Also we'll probably go back to having a small but well trained and equipped army, and an oversized marine force. Oh, and we'll continue refining the gunboat concept for river, canal, and coastal uses. Probably not so big into torpedo boats, going more for big main line battleships and cruisers, and some torpedo boat destroyers. We like big tough ships, to give our men the best hopes of surviving the battle and coming home.

The Platense doctrine is going to be similar. I have posted a timetable for the naval program based on what it took to the british to build some of their ships.

They plan to beef up their fleet. They discovered during the war with the Empire that powerful ships are good, but against vastly superior numbers are useless, so they plan to have more big ships with lots of big guns. They also need fast cruisers to keep an eye over their possesions in the Pacific. They plan to have more useful submarines, larger and with a more wider range of action. As for new toys they will have some armoured cars, although they do not think very much of them. They will prefer to go for the rigid airships which will be ideal to cover the long distances in the Republic.

They will build some bases in the Antarctic Peninsula, as long as the weather allows it, but they are bound for an american isolationist policy. They will tend to be involved mainly in American affairs but they will continue selling ships and war equipment to Spain and Mauriafrica outside the Americas.

[Bulgaroktonos]

On to another matter....we need to have some sort of rules of thumb to determine how quickly and how much our respective countries can build up their militaries during the fastforward.

Any ideas?

Overall, New Granada is likely to try and keep their Navy at about half the size of the largest Navy in the World (probably still will be the UK). Also expect them to get into the Airship business big time (useful for naval surveillance, weather reporting, and island hopping). We'll probably work with La Plata, the USA, and Canada on 'tank' and sub design, but we'll only have small amounts of each (but the latest and greatest, we New Granadans like shiny new toys). Also we'll probably go back to having a small but well trained and equipped army, and an oversized marine force. Oh, and we'll continue refining the gunboat concept for river, canal, and coastal uses. Probably not so big into torpedo boats, going more for big main line battleships and cruisers, and some torpedo boat destroyers. We like big tough ships, to give our men the best hopes of surviving the battle and coming home.

Glen, there is no need for tanks yet, as machine guns are only a recent development. once the next war breaks out, then we will see tanks come about.

Basically, the British are going ot be pumping out ships at an insane rate. Dreadnought was built in a few months. That pace won't be kept up ITTL, but expect A LOT of dreadnoughts to be built......

[DuQuense]

Canada is building ten Capital Ships due to political pressures caused by the Event, But with the Kings Visit [if he ever gets here] These will recede, and Canada will Downsize them to Second Class Battleships [Battle Cruisers] But they will Copy the US plan of long legs [Speed and Endurance]. They will Concentrate more on Support ships, and leave the Big Guns to the Wealthier UK and US. This idea of being a bridge between the US & UK, will work as long as the conflict is not between the two. They may try building some Ships just for the British Navy [Cash on Delivery, please]

Due too the Imperials, Canada increased it's Army to 150.000 men. now that that threat is over, they will probably cut back to 75.000, which is twice the pre event. and place more emphasis on the Militia Reserve [Better training, etc]

[Matt]

I drew out the US Navy last night, and I'm going to have 16 dreadnaughts in service in 1899(in addition to several pre-dreadnaughts). The OTL had almost 20 by 1910, so it's a bit of a reduction actually.

A "land battleship" well also be in long-term, often dead end devolpment. By this time it should be a steam powered basically armoured engine, with ridiculiously huge wheels, large crew, and incredible slow. No one yet has thought of combinding this with caterpiller tracks(recently devolped in the Midwest, by all things an Indian) and the internal combustion engine.

[Matt]

MBarry, Buying far off Iceland? Seems a bit of a mistake to me.


Better then the Hun or the Russians getting it, no? At least the United States is a friendly nation and won't be using it to negate your naval bases at Scapia Flow.

[Glen]

No. He considers that being Emperor of China could be a means of obtaining international prestige and power to claim the Spanish Throne. But during the meeting with the other two Carlos he did not mention it. So do not tell them, please... :rolleyes:

I think Carlos of China is going to be disappointed. The Spanish royals are on pretty good terms right now with their neighbors the French and the Mauriafricans. And they'd have strong support from the Americas if the choice is between the present heads of Spain and Brazil and Carlos of China.

I won't tell them, but I think word will leak out anyway ;)

[Othniel]

Better then the Hun or the Russians getting it, no? At least the United States is a friendly nation and won't be using it to negate your naval bases at Scapia Flow.
Britian has the highest bid so far, and I promised them a fair marigin in its sale, so if you want to buy it you got to beat 45 million pounds.

[Matt]

what does that equate to in US dollars circa 1887?

[Othniel]

I believe the exage was .87 pounds per dollar.

[Condottiero]

I think Carlos of China is going to be disappointed. The Spanish royals are on pretty good terms right now with their neighbors the French and the Mauriafricans. And they'd have strong support from the Americas if the choice is between the present heads of Spain and Brazil and Carlos of China.

I won't tell them, but I think word will leak out anyway ;)
:eek:
Anyway they'll have to bend below his autocratic power.

[Matt]

A'ight then 45 million dollars

or 15 for use of Keflavik as an exclusive American Naval Base

[Othniel]

:eek:
Anyway they'll have to bend below his autocratic power.
My 112 year old king would prefer to evelate the Empire of Brazil's head of goverment to the head of the S & B goverment.

[Matt]

So what do you say about Iceland Oth?

[Glen]

My 112 year old king would prefer to evelate the Empire of Brazil's head of goverment to the head of the S & B goverment.

I don't get it...

[Othniel]

So what do you say about Iceland Oth?
Its Closer than Hawaii? Just remeber I created this thread for the FF.. I'll probably put up an auction bloc in the Europe thread, the transfer taking place in January.

[Glen]

Its Closer than Hawaii? Just remeber I created this thread for the FF.. I'll probably put up an auction bloc in the Europe thread, the transfer taking place in January.

Oth, start an Iceland auction thread. Let people put in their bids, highest wins. Bids not bettered after 24 hours will be the winner. Or some such....

[Matt]

The Austrians prepped the place for ya, then the French opened wide the doors, and now there are happy Dutchmen from the American Southwest oggling amazed 1400 CE Dutchwomen on the streets of Amsterdam with a lot of American sailors also trying to get in on the action.

Congratulations on the American Netherlands

That's why I'm interested in Iceland. I have obligations to it, and while I can use Amsterdam as a base(well after some work), it can be easily blockaded by a hostile German fleet. Keflavik is a different matter.

[Glen]

That's why I'm interested in Iceland. I have obligations to it, and while I can use Amsterdam as a base(well after some work), it can be easily blockaded by a hostile German fleet. Keflavik is a different matter.

Exactly! You need an American Iceland to take care of your colony...um, I mean, protectorate, in Old Europe.

The American colonization of Europe begins.... ;)

[perdedor99]

The battle of Cape Town was a shock for the Drakan Navy. Instead of dreadnoughts we will concentrate in a combination of shore fortifications, submarines[first based in the stolen La Plata designs but steam powered engines will slow down progress until the sharing of technology with Germany of the internal combustion engine in 1891. By 1899 will be at least close to 300 submarines in the Fleet. The mayority coastal ones but a couple of ocean going ones with a combo of diesel and electric engines.] and airships[ By 1899 every major port will have a squadron of torpedo/bomber airships.] instead of dreadnoughts. The Draka are a land power and they recognized that. So they decided to deny the supply lines to any enemy that tries to land in their coast. They can invade if they want but their supply ships will be the main target of Draka not their capital ships.

In term of ships, bigger and better torpedo destroyers and fast cruisiers will be constructed but in 1897 following a Japanese design three battlecruiserswill be build for the Drakan Navy and two for the Japanese one and they will be completed by late 1898.

[Imajin]

I've been doing some thinking about Karelia and a fleet. Karelia's interests lie in the Baltic. Basically, it will probably attempt to build say, one dreadnought eventually, primairly for national pride, but unless Russia, Skandistan or Germany try for some major fleet buildups in the Baltic, they won't do too much. If that does happen, then they'll build more ships.
Also, they'll focus on fortifying Al-Linqe and Trelbahr, both against Skandistani attack (The recent civil war shows the importance of that) and against outside attack.

[perdedor99]

I've been doing some thinking about Karelia and a fleet. Karelia's interests lie in the Baltic. Basically, it will probably attempt to build say, one dreadnought eventually, primairly for national pride, but unless Russia, Skandistan or Germany try for some major fleet buildups in the Baltic, they won't do too much. If that does happen, then they'll build more ships.
Also, they'll focus on fortifying Al-Linqe and Trelbahr, both against Skandistani attack (The recent civil war shows the importance of that) and against outside attack.


Just read about the Swedish Navy during the era and could give you an idea of what to do. First fortify the hell of your coast. You will be creating a gauntlet for the Russian Fleet coming from St. Petersburg and forcing them to hug the coast with estonia if they sortie out. You could build some coastal dreadnoughts like the Swedish ones. Small well armored ships buidl for the conditions in the Baltic sea.

[DuQuense]

I just PM this to Condo. But thinking abouts figured it fit in here as well.


Only the Anglo tradition has seperate Marines, as part of theNavy structure. Most other Militaries simply call Army units stationed on Ships --Marines-

And speaking of Ships, ?What is the purpose of your Navy?

The UK wants to Protect it's Empire, The US wants to Compete with the UK. Canada is Building a few Capital Ships, [Just in cause another Event happens ] But is planning on being the Supporting Elements, to either the US or UK fleets. As such all three are building long leg Greyhound Ships. Austria is planning for coastal Protection in the East Med, and Red sea, Africa area, As such it will have big Bulldog Ships. Coastal Monitors, as opposed to Cruisers, I'm not sure what LaPlatas goal will be.

And remember one of your problems was moving Your men around [ even today OTL Argentina has problems getting troops up into the Andes, to hunt for crashed Planes etc.] So you will have been building Roads and Railroads everywhere you think there may be trouble. This means your troops do not have to be as dispensed as before the Imperials.

[DuQuense]

In the 1880's Gold was 16$/ OZ or 4 pounds Sterling, this makes the British pound = 4 $'s US. The 0.87 is Todays exchange rate. Oh how the mighty have fallen. of course in 1880 the Canadian and US dollar were one to one. and today Canada is about 0.67.

[Lauranthalas]

I've been doing some thinking about Karelia and a fleet. Karelia's interests lie in the Baltic. Basically, it will probably attempt to build say, one dreadnought eventually, primairly for national pride, but unless Russia, Skandistan or Germany try for some major fleet buildups in the Baltic, they won't do too much. If that does happen, then they'll build more ships.
Also, they'll focus on fortifying Al-Linqe and Trelbahr, both against Skandistani attack (The recent civil war shows the importance of that) and against outside attack.
well, depends on what you consider major. Russia will build primarily small fast ships especially against submarines which are being build by many nations now and a smaller number of dreadnoughts like 5 - 10 in the baltics and pacific each. and 3 - 5 in the Black sea. but still priority is army since the new territory requires a much larger army especially due to the scale of the other armies in here. Russia basically had a tl where most armies were rather small in comparison to this here

[Condottiero]

I just PM this to Condo. But thinking abouts figured it fit in here as well.


Only the Anglo tradition has seperate Marines, as part of theNavy structure. Most other Militaries simply call Army units stationed on Ships --Marines-

And speaking of Ships, ?What is the purpose of your Navy?

The UK wants to Protect it's Empire, The US wants to Compete with the UK. Canada is Building a few Capital Ships, [Just in cause another Event happens ] But is planning on being the Supporting Elements, to either the US or UK fleets. As such all three are building long leg Greyhound Ships. Austria is planning for coastal Protection in the East Med, and Red sea, Africa area, As such it will have big Bulldog Ships. Coastal Monitors, as opposed to Cruisers, I'm not sure what LaPlatas goal will be.

And remember one of your problems was moving Your men around [ even today OTL Argentina has problems getting troops up into the Andes, to hunt for crashed Planes etc.] So you will have been building Roads and Railroads everywhere you think there may be trouble. This means your troops do not have to be as dispensed as before the Imperials.

I have reduced a bit its size. Basically they will have two fleets each one with 8-10 big ships and several smaller for protection of the Atlantic coast and Pacific coastline and possesions. There will be small fleets with one old cruiser and some destroyers in order to protect convoys of troops along the coasts and to Antarctican Territories.

[Matt]

I wouldn't really day that I'm competing with the UK, but looking globally now. The US now has colo.... err... protectorates around the world, and needs a fleet to protect them.

[Glen]

P99, something I vaguely remember seeing posted a while back....

Did you say the Draka plan to build 300 subs in the next 12 years? Was that a typo of some sort? That would be 25 subs a year if you started right in 1887. Was it a typo?

[Glen]

Where is Christantinople?

[Matt]

United States Goals:

-extension of credit to New Gotland for rebuilding, and the establishment of a Naval Base
-resettlement of Texas territory, rebuilding of railroads
-economic investment into Abilon
-In 1888 the Defense Establishment Act well be passed, reorganizing the Army in more modern lines, increasing the size of the Marine Corp and Navy, establish a min. requirement for size of the fleet in capitial ships.
-Cooperation with the N. Grandans in patrolling the Caribean and the Gulf of Mexico.
-Supplying older warships to various Allies(La Plata, Netherlands, etc)
-Death of the Democrat party, and the emergence of the Progressives in 1890
-Establishing a more suitable Indian Territory in former Arkansas and Northren Louisana.
-Woman sufferage
-The Progressive Party well introduce some of the first Pro-Labor reforms in the United States

[Aussey]

Plans of the Imperial Confederation:

-Finish Military Reforms
-Finish Government Reforms
-Find a Wife for the Emperor, a Have her provide an heir
-Create a Secretary-of-State-for-North Africa
-Create a Secretary-of-State-for-Abyssinia & Sudan
-Create an African Legion from ANYONE (Am. Blacks, Jews, Chinese, anyone) who goes to Somalia and inlists.
-Complete the Mosque in Vienna, and Cathedral in Alexandria. Repeat in the cities of Salzburg, Cairo, Addis Ababa and Christantinople (which brings me to my next point)
-Begin construction on proposed city Christantinople on the Black Sea (to be where modern day port of Constanta, Romania is)
-Begin constusction on Port Imperial, on the Black Sea (to be where modern day port of Varna, Bulgaria is)
-Have the Emperor visit Tripoli, Alexandria, Khartoum, and Addis Ababa to visit consturction of the Cathedrals and Mosques.
-Further "colonization" within the empty lands of the Tsardom of Bulgaria
-Strengthen Crown Power in Tripoli and Khartoum.
-Divide Libya-Egypt and Ethiopia into provinces
-Attract immigrants to Austrian Africa (focus mainly on the "persecuted" Skandistanis. We arent racist in Austria!): Work with Christian tribes (mainly Dinka and Ethiopians) on governing the land.
-Import gazelles (possibly and/or zebras) and necessary plants to make soil more fertile and rid of flys in the Sahel.
-Create a second port city in the Red Sea.
-Continue research of the old Nile-Red Sea Canal
-Increase relations with the French Republic
-Increase relations with the Persian Empire
-Electrification of the Country With Help from Canada
-Increasing and Modernizing the Railroads
-Building Forts in the Mountain Passes [Both in Europe, and Ethiopia]. Establishing Calvary Forts [aka the John Wayne Calvary type] across the Sahel and Sudan.
-Building of Coastal Monitors
-Continue with the Jewish Immigrants in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, Building Towns [Tel Aviv about fifteen miles SOUTH of Jerusalem], Roads, Railroads, and Canals.

Thanks DQ for the rest of our plans!!!

[DuQuense]

-Finish Military Reforms

Basically He was trying to get rid of all those Individual [Sicily-Venice- Hungary etc] Groups and just have one Imperial Austrian Army, With Same for Africa [except Senior Officers would be Austrian [like British India OTL]


-Finish Government Reforms
Establish Parliaments on the British Two House model, but make sure that they are filled with the Emperors Choices, so their power continues weak, While the people are happy.

-Find a Wife for the Emperor, a Have her provide an heir
I hadn't thought of this

-Create a Secretary-of-State-for-Africa
I would have had two- one for each area

-Create an Austrian Foreign Legion from the Military
I would call it the African Legion, Let it be know around that it takes anyone who shows up in Somalia and Enlists,no questions asked, Then enforce this, even if it means American Blacks- Chinese -Jews -others.

-Complete the Mosque in Vienna, and Cathedral in Alexandria. Repeat in the cities of Salzburg, Cairo, Addia, Ababa, and Christantinople (which brings me to my next point)
Well to build a full Cathedral, or Mosque on the scale of a National Building takes 20-25 years, but you can start them.
I was going to have the Emperor Visit Africa, and Visit the Construction and Meet with the Imams who are overseeing it. [Short piece about the Cristian Workmen starting to take their breaks at the time The Imams call Prayer.]

Begin construction on proposed city Christantinople on the Black Sea
I would take a spot where a pre ISOT existing Port was. Like Constana, a little south of the north Mouth of the river.

-Further "colonization" within the empty lands of the Tsardom of Bulgaria
Germany [Prussia] Didn't get much new territory, Extensive recruitment there. [same Language as a inducement.

-Increase Military manpower by at least 350,000 men per year
You have gone to Universal Military Conscription, Just have better retention rates, at the end of the 1 years basic. Recruit heavily from the newly Trained.

-Strengthen Crown Power in Tripoli and Khartoum.
-Divide Libya-Egypt and Ethiopia into provinces
these both are part of the ongoing political reforms.

-Attract immigrants to Austrian Africa: Work with Christian tribes (mainly Dinka and Ethiopians) on governing the land.
I was going to be recruiting in North Europe [Scandiastan] And Germany

-Import gazelles and necessary plants to make soil more fertile and rid of flys in the Sahel.
Or maybe Zebras [Horse Meat was quite popular at the time]

-Create a second port city in the Red Sea.
You have a Engineer in Egypt looking for the old Nile/Red Sea Canal Site, and seeing about rebuilding it. [Lots Smaller than the Suez, & for Smaller Ships You don't want the British keeping a record of.] The Red Sea end of that.

-Create a port city on the Indian Ocean
You Have Mogadishu. ?Did You mean a Second Major Port? That means more expense of second major Railroad.

-Increase relations with the French Republic
Definitely, I was thinking in the back of my mind of France, Austria, Persia, Taking the place of OTL Central powers. long term thinking for twenty-thirty yeas out.

-more to come after I chat with DuQuense...

There Is the Electrification of the Country With Help from Canada [Worlds Expert]
Increasing and Modernizing the Railroads.
Building Forts in all the Mountain Passes across the Sahel and Sudan.
Building your Coastal Monitors,
Your Jewish Immigrants in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, Building Towns [ Tel Aviv about fifteen miles SOUTH of Jerusalem] Roads, Railroads, and Canals.

?Would you like me to post this in the Chat thread?[/QUOTE]

I have the Kingdom of Jerusalem? Feel free to post this all! I already told everyone you would be working with me in the beginning weeks![/QUOTE]

Yes

London Octobre 10th.

Rabbi Friedrich Itamar Yehiel The leader of the Austrian Zionists, was meeting with the American/Canadian and European Leaders.

So the Austrian's have agreed to lease The Kingdom of Jerusalem and allow Us to Emigrate into the Area. [B] There are several Conditions . The Area doesn't include the City of Jerusalem or ten miles around it. It will be patrolled by Austrian Troops, in unison with the Persians. There is a official Limit of 45.000 Immigrants /per year. And there will be a Special Levy on Us to pay for the New Railroads. Canals, and Irrigation Projects.

As he Finished the discussion Started. It took only ten Minutes for the Yelling to Start, and Lasted all Week. But in the End, They accepted. The Americans, Canadians, British, and other Europeans, Had turned them Down. They knew this was the best Offer they were going to get.

My friend it occurs to me that our new Territories include a lot of Muslims. And one of the titles bestowed on Me several days ago was Holy Roman Emperor/ Now I already have the Emperor part, as Emperor of Austria, and I don't want the Rome, part. Imagine what Cardinal Lorenz Marius, would say as Imperial Confessor. when he returned from this Conference in Rome.” Johann gave himself a shake at the Horrible thought. “That leaves the Holy part.

As part of the Holy part He answered the Zionist request for help in regaining Jerusalem.

It is a Bolt hole for Jews against the pogroms in some Countries where the Jews are being Blamed for the Event.

Ohand I was going to have those Irrigation Canals Cause a Major MAJOR Disaster

[Condottiero]

Republic of La Plata Goals:

- attract (better working conditions, free land for newcomers, female sufrage...) more immigrants to repopulate the coastal towns and the Patagonia,
- modernization of bases in Hawaii, New Caledon and Wake (in coop. with the US and New Grenade),
- creation of commercial installations in Texan base (in coop. with the US),
- obtaining supply of Oil from the US or New Grenade,
- progress in the military alliance with the US and New Grenade,
- Cession of old warships to the Viceroyalty of Peru, United Kingdom of Spain and Mauri,
- increase cooperation with Mauribrazilian authorities (creation of a trade area and possible political cooperation),
- modernization of the Navy and the army (airships and submarines),
- construction of several new shipyards,
- colonization of American Antarctic Territory.

[Glen]

United States Goals:

-extension of credit to New Gotland for rebuilding, and the establishment of a Naval Base

And if you need a little more credit, Bankers in New Granada are standing by. ;)

-Cooperation with the N. Grandans in patrolling the Caribean and the Gulf of Mexico.

The New Granadans have the Caribbean covered in its entirety. We'll do joint coastal patrols in the Gulf of Mexico, though. The Rio Grandeans will help on that a little bit as well.

-Death of the Democrat party, and the emergence of the Progressives in 1890

While I find this an interesting idea, I am not certain how it happens in your USA. The Democrats managed to continue existing even after the ACW and reconstruction in OTL, which I personally would have thought would have killed the Democratic party of the time, and yet it endured and rebuilt. Why would it disappear here? Not that I am complaining, more that I am perplexed.

-Establishing a more suitable Indian Territory in former Arkansas and Northren Louisana.

The New Granadans would love to see a more humane resolution to the Indian Wars.

-Woman sufferage

Wow, now you really are pushing the envelope. :D Did some of those Navarrese women get to you? ;) Even TR didn't push for female suffrage until third election bid for the White House in 1912. I'll be very interested to see how you work all of this into the USA over the course of the fastforward. I like them all, but I am curious as to how you pull it off.

-The Progressive Party well introduce some of the first Pro-Labor reforms in the United States

Sure. I bet if nothing else, that idea could percolate through from New Granada, where they have more benign labor treatment, pushed from the ealiest points of industrialization by the Church.

[Glen]

It is a Bolt hole for Jews against the pogroms in some Countries where the Jews are being Blamed for the Event.

New Granada is also offering sanctuary to the Jews of Europe. Of course, we won't be able to compete with the Promised Land. That region will probably get the more religiously zealous and the pioneer types. Those looking for a more refined setting may prefer the tolerance and affluence of New Granada....

[Glen]

Republic of La Plata Goals:

- modernization of bases in Hawaii, New Caledon and Wake (in coop. with the US and New Grenade),

We'd be happy to help.

- creation of commercial installations in Texan base (in coop. with the US),

Are you really going to have a Texan base? I thought you two ended up deciding to just have free access to ports and commercial investment?

- obtaining supply of Oil from the US or New Grenade,

The New Granadans already have a good oil producing infrastructure. We'd completely squeezed out the Whaling industry in our timeline that way, so you're closest and most advanced oil infrastructure will be in New Granada. Hmmm, once oil becomes more important, maybe we can build a pipeline through Peru....

- progress in the military alliance with the US and New Grenade,

Absolutely! We will have our fighters as brothers in the defense of the Pax Americanas.

- modernization of the Navy and the army (airships and submarines),
- construction of several new shipyards,

Same here. I am certain we will all work closely together on this in the Americas.

- colonization of American Antarctic Territory.

Well, you'll try. ;)

I'm also going to have to get some Canadians on down to work on hydroelectric projects.

[Condottiero]

* Texan base: it will be just a comercial outpost. No army, no navy there. Just lots of Platense enterprises located there to make business in the US. The Platense government will build the railways to connect with the main lines.

* A pipeline through Peru... a bit mountanious but tempting. At the moment will have to rely on tankers.

* I have been looking for some cool steampunk ideas, but appart from Nautilus-like submarines and some conventional airships I am not going to have anything special for the platenses.

* Hydroelectric projects: what about one big dam in Iguazú in cooperation with La Plata and Mauribrazil?

[perdedor99]

Drakan goals:

To continue the pacification of the new territories.
To create a national rail net to facilitate transport of troops from one side of the nation to the other.
Further developments in weapons.
Continue to receive refugees from Skandistan and the south of the United States.
Warming up in the relations with Russia, Persia, Japan and the Confederation of German States.
Continue the looting of the Antartica territory until the weather turns too bad for permanent inhabitation.


OOC: Main things. will respond to actions of others thru the fast forward in small things but this is the blueprint of the Draka goals.

[DuQuense]

Sometime during the Fast Forward the ASB's will replace the Telegraph wires with Telefona wires from your Government Offices to your Embassies.. The kind of Fones where you pick up the handset, turn the crank to call the operator, and ask her to place your call. they should be in fancy, ornate Boxes [probably porcelain]. And no-one will wonder at the change. ?Aren't those ASB's wonderful?

[Glen]

Sometime during the Fast Forward the ASB's will replace the Telegraph wires with Telefona wires from your Government Offices to your Embassies.. The kind of Fones where you pick up the handset, turn the crank to call the operator, and ask her to place your call. they should be in fancy, ornate Boxes [probably porcelain]. And no-one will wonder at the change. ?Aren't those ASB's wonderful?

Really? Can't we just develop telephones ourselves and leave the ASBs out of it? And if they do, who are the operators? :eek:

[Glen]

Just a thought on the rate of naval building....

If we just post the same number of ships as would have been built by the tech level reached, we would have essentially twice the rate of ship building in this timeline as in the OTL, which seems like a nice way to simulate our intensified naval race, not so?

[Lauranthalas]

Just a thought on the rate of naval building....

If we just post the same number of ships as would have been built by the tech level reached, we would have essentially twice the rate of ship building in this timeline as in the OTL, which seems like a nice way to simulate our intensified naval race, not so?
but no one would have the money to pay for sucha naval race

[Glen]

but no one would have the money to pay for sucha naval race

Well, I wonder about that. There are more great powers in this world than in our own, and more industrialization. Also the looted riches of half of another world. This world is more affluent overall than our own in many ways. I think that once trade stabilizes, that there will be larger economies overall. So maybe the money would be there.

Bulg, you have the largest navy in the world, what do you think should be the rate of ship development for the fastforward? I like making it somehow pegged to the rate of OTL development, as it makes it easier to figure.

On a related note, we need ground rules on developing zepplins for lighter-than-air warfare, and the subs. They'll look like Nemo's Nautalus, but we need some form of real world numbers for them. And how many are Draka going to develop? 300, had to be a typo....

[perdedor99]

Well, I wonder about that. There are more great powers in this world than in our own, and more industrialization. Also the looted riches of half of another world. This world is more affluent overall than our own in many ways. I think that once trade stabilizes, that there will be larger economies overall. So maybe the money would be there.

Bulg, you have the largest navy in the world, what do you think should be the rate of ship development for the fastforward? I like making it somehow pegged to the rate of OTL development, as it makes it easier to figure.

On a related note, we need ground rules on developing zepplins for lighter-than-air warfare, and the subs. They'll look like Nemo's Nautalus, but we need some form of real world numbers for them. And how many are Draka going to develop? 300, had to be a typo....

Check the number and you're right. Maybe about 200, 80% coastal subs, the rest being fleet ones. In regard to zeppelins I was going for the AS-7, big enought for carrying a century of troops with equipment, serve as a bomber or as a true gunship. With Drakaluminum used as the construction material they could resist all up to 4inch guns. Due to weigh that all they can carry. 2 double turrets with 4 inch guns. I guess all nations will make their airships similar to those.

[Glen]

Check the number and you're right. Maybe about 200, 80% coastal subs, the rest being fleet ones.

What is your definition of coastal versus fleet?

Unless those coastal ones are rather small, I still think these numbers sound wild. Everyone else I've talked to is talking about subs in the tens, not the hundreds. Even if the coastal ones are small and on the cheap, still anything over a hundred built in just 12 years sounds fabulous.

What were the peak numbers of subs built in OTL, does anyone know? Maybe that can give us a better guide.

[QUOTE] In regard to zeppelins I was going for the AS-7, big enought for carrying a century of troops with equipment, serve as a bomber or as a true gunship. With Drakaluminum used as the construction material they could resist all up to 4inch guns. Due to weigh that all they can carry. 2 double turrets with 4 inch guns. I guess all nations will make their airships similar to those.

Sounds okay to me. But how many, p99, how many? I think we ought to try to keep the numbers of all these big ticket weapons developed in the 12 year fastforward in the dozens, not the hundreds. Just my two cents.

Of course, I was the one arguing for faster naval development than OTL based on relatively greater affluence and industrialization. Maybe that too should be scaled back.

MBarry, Bulg, we need some rules regarding how much of what can be developed and how fast for the fastforward. Anyone have some other ideas on that?

[Othniel]

Mauriafrican Goals:

-Pacfication and integration of outlying terriories.
-Increase overall revenue as to attempt to buy the colonies of the Europeans in West Africa
-Moderzination of the Millitary, including building of fortfications along the borders with modren guns and invovations.
-Flamethrowers (including the invention of Napalm..I mean heavy petrolum)
-The implement of mass production, replacable parts, and assembly belt producetion.
-Support of the Pan-Am goals.
-Increase relations with La Plata
-Discrect support of indepdance movements within Austrian Afirca.
-Isolation of the Draka.

New Albion:
-Goals will shift to fit that of the Greater powers around them.

Mauribasil:
-They'll attempt to become less reliant on the Motherland

Oldenburg (German Confederation):
-Radicals will start coming to power pushing for a Written Constution to be put in place and the monarch to be limited.

[Lauranthalas]

Well, I wonder about that. There are more great powers in this world than in our own, and more industrialization. Also the looted riches of half of another world. This world is more affluent overall than our own in many ways. I think that once trade stabilizes, that there will be larger economies overall. So maybe the money would be there.
bigger economies make more money being around. and most (dunno if all) of our contries have capitalism. and teh more money is around in capitalism the higher get the prices and thus it's getting on the same level until the first big depression. then things'll change

[perdedor99]

[QUOTE=perdedor99]Check the number and you're right. Maybe about 200, 80% coastal subs, the rest being fleet ones.

What is your definition of coastal versus fleet?

Unless those coastal ones are rather small, I still think these numbers sound wild. Everyone else I've talked to is talking about subs in the tens, not the hundreds. Even if the coastal ones are small and on the cheap, still anything over a hundred built in just 12 years sounds fabulous.

What were the peak numbers of subs built in OTL, does anyone know? Maybe that can give us a better guide.



Sounds okay to me. But how many, p99, how many? I think we ought to try to keep the numbers of all these big ticket weapons developed in the 12 year fastforward in the dozens, not the hundreds. Just my two cents.

Of course, I was the one arguing for faster naval development than OTL based on relatively greater affluence and industrialization. Maybe that too should be scaled back.

MBarry, Bulg, we need some rules regarding how much of what can be developed and how fast for the fastforward. Anyone have some other ideas on that?

That's what I'm saying. We are are not been caught up in the naval race except for maybe 3 battlecruisers build with Japan, with Japan getting 3 more from our shipyards in the very end[1898-1899]. We will concentrate in subs to protect our coasts, destroyers and fast cruisers for escort duty and airships for defending the coast and as bombers and gunships. As being easier to build than ships I guess the number will be very high indeed. Most likely we will have more than the New Granadans for example due to them being more naval oriented. But La Plata I see with not a bigger sub fleet that ours due to them possibly joining the dreadnought race but more advanced subs maybe.

[Glen]

[QUOTE=Glen Finney]

That's what I'm saying. We are are not been caught up in the naval race except for maybe 3 battlecruisers build with Japan, with Japan getting 3 more from our shipyards in the very end[1898-1899]. We will concentrate in subs to protect our coasts, destroyers and fast cruisers for escort duty and airships for defending the coast and as bombers and gunships.

I'm totally sympathetic with your rationale as to the emphasis and ration of your military evolution. I think it makes a lot of sense and will be an interesting twist. It's the absolute numbers I'm uncertain of.

As being easier to build than ships I guess the number will be very high indeed.

Are they easier to build than ships? That's my question. They're a relatively new technology. Seriously, everyone, I'm asking here. I just don't know if they are easier, quicker, or cheaper to build than surface ships. 200 over 12 years sounds like the kinds of numbers I would expect someone to build of torpedo boats. Are they on that level of inexpense and ease to build? I can see them being cheaper than first line battleships, but maybe more along the lines of cruisers in terms of difficulty and expense? Then again, if you are talking more about pocket subs, maybe crewed by 10 men or so, those might be in the torpedo boat or torpedo boat destroyer range.

Most likely we will have more than the New Granadans for example due to them being more naval oriented.

Yep, definitely.

But La Plata I see with not a bigger sub fleet that ours due to them possibly joining the dreadnought race but more advanced subs maybe.

Okay, I can see that. Again, its the absolute numbers that I'm worried about.

And its not just for subs. We need to get these numbers down for airships, surface vessels, and armored vehicles. Preferably before Monday.

Anyone else have any comments about these numbers of subs, or about the numbers of surface ships navies should be able to produce, or airships, or even (gulp) armored vehicles?

[perdedor99]

The coastal submarines in the Drakan navy are small things, maybe a crew of 14 with 4 torpedo tubes and very limited range. Their mission is to harass and destroy any attempted invasion fleet, the supply and troop carriers, not the capital ships. things that small can be build by the dozens in a year time IMO. The fleet ones are more difficult to build but using the WW1 contruction rate we can say 10 a year of those can be build starting from 1894 when internal combustion engines give better range to the subs.

The airships need to research a decent production rate but remember the Draka are a society in a state of eternal war so their economy is geared in that direction.

[perdedor99]

Okay, I can see that. Again, its the absolute numbers that I'm worried about.

And its not just for subs. We need to get these numbers down for airships, surface vessels, and armored vehicles. Preferably before Monday.

Anyone else have any comments about these numbers of subs, or about the numbers of surface ships navies should be able to produce, or airships, or even (gulp) armored vehicles?


The armored cars I will have by a bunch, sorry to say. The technology is already there and it will get better. But internal combustion engines are a priority of the Navy and the airship programs so the mayority of the armored cars will be steam powered still. In regard to the Land Leviathan program, only the arrival of the internal combustion engine will resolve their appearance. So a lot of 37mm turreted armored steam cars[ enough to make four regiments of cars, plus a couple of independent companies] but maybe at most 100 Land Leviathans available. The child of Ismael Hassansen.

[Glen]

The coastal submarines in the Drakan navy are small things, maybe a crew of 14 with 4 torpedo tubes and very limited range. Their mission is to harass and destroy any attempted invasion fleet, the supply and troop carriers, not the capital ships. things that small can be build by the dozens in a year time IMO. The fleet ones are more difficult to build but using the WW1 contruction rate we can say 10 a year of those can be build starting from 1894 when internal combustion engines give better range to the subs.

I'm starting to see where you are getting your numbers. 25 per year from 1887 on would give you 300 coastal subs by 1899. 10 fleet subs per year from 1894 would give you 50 fleet subs! How many torpedo boats and fast cruisers were you planning to construct in the same timeframe?


[/Quote]If Draka concentrated on only these, and built only
The airships need to research a decent production rate but remember the Draka are a society in a state of eternal war so their economy is geared in that direction.[/QUOTE]

Okay, I'm starting to see things a little more your way personally. Maybe ramp down the production numbers for the coastal subs to what you said, 200 over the 12 years. Then the fleet subs...you've got a command economy more like a wartime one, as you say, but still....say 35? 7 per year? I'd vary that number a little up or down depending on what we allow for the surface fleets. If we get the full tilt production I was suggesting, than 50 subs built instead is reasonable. If we go with production rates like OTL, than 7 a year is going to be the max, I think. Remember, that 10 per year was in 1914-18, and while we are closer to that than OTL was, and will get very close indeed by the end, at least early on it will be harder to build the u-boats....

Again, does anyone other than p99 and me have an opinion on these numbers, either way? Laur? You spoke up about the surface navy, maybe you can include some comments here?

[Glen]

The armored cars I will have by a bunch, sorry to say. The technology is already there and it will get better. But internal combustion engines are a priority of the Navy and the airship programs so the mayority of the armored cars will be steam powered still. In regard to the Land Leviathan program, only the arrival of the internal combustion engine will resolve their appearance. So a lot of 37mm turreted armored steam cars[ enough to make four regiments of cars, plus a couple of independent companies] but maybe at most 100 Land Leviathans available. The child of Ismael Hassansen.

That's a lot to produce, I agree. Planning something for East Africa, are we? ;)