WI Wilhelm II wasn't handicaped

[lichtbringer]

Wilhelm II, Emporer of the second Kaiserreich, was handicaped on the left arm due to complications during birth. Heself stated he had an unlucky childhood because of that handicap. His mother Victoria couldn't stand that she hadn't give birth to an 'undamaged' throne-follower and tried everything even obscure method to repair that demage. That had a great impact on the personality of Wilhelm II.
Now WI there wasn't any problems during childbirth and Wilhelm was born as a healthy boy without any handicaps? How will that influence his personality and the politics of the Kaiserreich?

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Wilhelm II, Emporer of the second Kaiserreich, was handicaped on the left arm due to complications during birth. Heself stated he had an unlucky childhood because of that handicap. His mother Victoria couldn't stand that she hadn't give birth to an 'undamaged' throne-follower and tried everything even obscure method to repair that demage. That had a great impact on the personality of Wilhelm II.
Now WI there wasn't any problems during childbirth and Wilhelm was born as a healthy boy without any handicaps? How will that influence his personality and the politics of the Kaiserreich?
immediate germanwank.

[Alex Richards]

immediate germanwank.

Quite possibly not actually. It has been speculated that a lot of Wilhelm's agression in diplomacy came from a large inferiority complex and a desire to prove himself due to the arm. With the arm healthy, he may be more controlled in his diplomatic dealings.

[Monty Burns]

Quite possibly not actually. It has been speculated that a lot of Wilhelm's agression in diplomacy came from a large inferiority complex and a desire to prove himself due to the arm. With the arm healthy, he may be more controlled in his diplomatic dealings.

Ahem... I'd say a sane German leadership good in diplomacy would indeed lead to German-wank: Another Wilhelm might get an alliance with Britain.

[Kelenas]

And if not allied, then perhaps at least neutral. A bad situation for France, in either case.

- Kelenas

[altamiro]

Ahem... I'd say a sane German leadership good in diplomacy would indeed lead to German-wank: Another Wilhelm might get an alliance with Britain.

Seconding that. OTL Wilhelm dreamed of an alliance with Britain but did pretty much everything wrong in courting it (her?). A less self-conscious, more confident and calm Wilhelm might avoid these mistakes. It would probably not lead to a real Germanwank, but Germany's position would be massively strengthened. Thus, no need for the generals to push for a war against Russia even if relations turn sour (OTL 1914 was seen as the last year in which German Army has a chance to beat rapidly industrializing Russia; with the power of RN and the ressources of the British empire "accessible" to Germany, such concerns might lose their importance.

Actually, I alsmost think the result would be a Russiawank - Russian industrialization continues at the same pace, no massive devastation wrought by three wars, larger population, vast natural ressources accessed at much earlier time... Germany and Russia will not be able to avoid conflict as there is a massive overlap of interests - but "sane" leaders on both sides will probably channel the conflicts.

[David S Poepoe]

I've heard it speculated that aside from the withered arm, that he may have been deprived of oxygen during delivery and that may have contributed to some brain damage.

However, I think historically it is all too easy to lay the failures or disasters of the past at one individual's feet. Any problems that Wilhelm had I believe the German Government was happy to exploit and use him as a front, even before 1914 he was probably being excluded from certain decisions.

[lichtbringer]

I've heard it speculated that aside from the withered arm, that he may have been deprived of oxygen during delivery and that may have contributed to some brain damage.

However, I think historically it is all too easy to lay the failures or disasters of the past at one individual's feet. Any problems that Wilhelm had I believe the German Government was happy to exploit and use him as a front, even before 1914 he was probably being excluded from certain decisions.
It is reported that baby wilhelm didn't move after birth. A midwife broke the protocoll (whatever that was) and slapped the baby with a wet towel and it started to cry.

[Nivek]

I know the thesis of the anglophile of was the High Seas Fleet the main cause of the war(IMHO an pathetical excuse for naked imperialism) that was a lot of thing(the new german imperialism vs the old british imperialism but how all the people love the british...)

The breech-Birth have a unfortunated result with his family... several contrains between his father and his grandfather about his education(in fact he has some clash with his vater, and was the favorite of his gross-vater) who make Wilhelm more close to this greatfather in the long term... and the contracs schocks of the 'english aptitude' of both parent who think Both Wilhelms(Granddady and grandson) will 'alineate the country' and the cancer thereament and the clash with his mother...

I think the Clash will perdure.. more if his father keep his 'english aptitude' and will alineate the families....

Again the HIGH SEAS FLEET was the result of an unterminable debate about what to do with the navy... comercial protector or war machine... finnaly thanks to the hestiation the final decission have Wilhelm II who decide the big ships over small ship.. but again if the opposite is chose.. still the english will protest.. because who can have a navy even equal of bigger than OTL

In fact... maybe if not is a breechbirth and have better family development... will focus on Army than Navy(the focus in navy was a comment of some naval nobles about the lack of decent navy to Wilhelm I who make an effect in Wlhelm II)

ATT

Nivek von Beldo

[Mikestone8]

Again the HIGH SEAS FLEET was the result of an unterminable debate about what to do with the navy... comercial protector or war machine... finnaly thanks to the hestiation the final decission have Wilhelm II who decide the big ships over small ship.. but again if the opposite is chose.. still the english will protest.. because who can have a navy even equal of bigger than OTL

In fact... maybe if not is a breechbirth and have better family development... will focus on Army than Navy(the focus in navy was a comment of some naval nobles about the lack of decent navy to Wilhelm I who make an effect in Wlhelm II)

ATT

Nivek von Beldo

Interesting point. Giles MacDonough (The last Kaiser) reports an incident just before Wilhelm's accession to the throne. His brother Henry came back from a tour of the German colonies in Africa, reporting with no expression of disagreement that the Germans there saw no need for a big navy, as they thought the British navy kept order on the high seas quite adequately. Wilhelm promptly called on Bismarck declaring indignantly that this would never do, and Germany must have a bigger fleet. Ironically, when they did have one, Henry found himself consigned to it

One wonders whether a properly developed Wilhelm might have been more like Henry. OTOH, if Wilhelm hadn't survived the delivery, or died young - -

[Nivek]

Interesting point. Giles MacDonough (The last Kaiser) reports an incident just before Wilhelm's accession to the throne. His brother Henry came back from a tour of the German colonies in Africa, reporting with no expression of disagreement that the Germans there saw no need for a big navy, as they thought the British navy kept order on the high seas quite adequately. Wilhelm promptly called on Bismarck declaring indignantly that this would never do, and Germany must have a bigger fleet. Ironically, when they did have one, Henry found himself consigned to it

One wonders whether a properly developed Wilhelm might have been more like Henry. OTOH, if Wilhelm hadn't survived the delivery, or died young - -

UMMM... Interesting.

In OTL the expasion of the navy was something approved by both nobilities and some of the middle class(because the navy was the fully german service.. unlike the regional armies and the no existance Luftwaffe), but the debate was between Big Ships(war ships) vs Small ships( Commerce Raiders and Escort).. and we know the historical result

The problem is than a lot people in that era ignore the posibilities of the small ships(even with the less power) but if germany choose small ships. the gap betwen KM and the RN will be 3/5 rather the 1/2 parity... and that will make the pirate nation to scream....

Again the personality of Willie II was by his birth and the efects of that birth.. and his familty disfunctionality... who take 2 out with the POD.. but the third one is the tricky..

[Paladin]

Wasn't this the POD behind A Healthy Baby Boy? If so, could someone post a link, I can't seem to find it.

[Mikestone8]

UMMM... Interesting.

In OTL the expasion of the navy was something approved by both nobilities and some of the middle class(because the navy was the fully german service.. unlike the regional armies and the no existance Luftwaffe), but the debate was between Big Ships(war ships) vs Small ships( Commerce Raiders and Escort).. and we know the historical result

The problem is than a lot people in that era ignore the posibilities of the small ships(even with the less power) but if germany choose small ships. the gap betwen KM and the RN will be 3/5 rather the 1/2 parity... and that will make the pirate nation to scream......


Really? I thought most of the OTL screaming was over the Dreadnought "race". Would Germany having more cruisers have generated the same excitement?

As for "pirate nation" I'm not sure what you mean. There isn't really any other kind of nation - except those who are too small to pirate with any chance of success, and even they sometimes try to get in on the act.

[Nivek]

Really? I thought most of the OTL screaming was over the Dreadnought "race". Would Germany having more cruisers have generated the same excitement?

As for "pirate nation" I'm not sure what you mean. There isn't really any other kind of nation - except those who are too small to pirate with any chance of success, and even they sometimes try to get in on the act.

Umm.. i think i used some hingsight in my comments....(the dreadnought was only more a political tool than a proper military one) but again I'm not an admiral... and is difficult to understand sometime the diference from modern navy to victorian-ww1 era navies

the second come from a book of the Irish Patriots to desmitify the 'heroism' of the royal navy.... and for that you know who was the 'Pirate Nation'

[The Admiral Hook]

"However, I think historically it is all too easy to lay the failures or disasters of the past at one individual's feet. Any problems that Wilhelm had I believe the German Government was happy to exploit and use him as a front, even before 1914 he was probably being excluded from certain decisions."

I totally agree, and if the German government pursues a similar course of action in WW1 to OTL but with a helplessly sane and much more Anglophile Wilhelm at the helm, it could make for a much more bitter and Anglophobic Germany in time for the 20's, 30's, and 40's...

...which would ultimately be worse for England than it already was OTL. That might be interesting.

[Kerblo]

I don't think it is fair to put too much blame of WW1 on Wilhelm's handicap. Yes, he was physically and mentally handicapped and yes a man who wasn't may very well have been better at domestic administration, military leadership, and diplomacy. The fact was though that when he was crowned the third Kaiser in 1888 Germany was in a rough status.

Wilhelm was made ruler of a German Empire with almost no colonies, a useless Triple Alliance, and two giant and angry neighbors (France and Russia).

Triple Alliance: 1882, six years before Wilhelm 2 was crowned. Frightened Russia into an alliance with France and England. Gained Italy as an ally who fought against Germany in WW1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Alliance_(1882)

German Colonial Empire: An expensive venture that weakened rather than strengthened Germany. Established in 1884. There were attempts to give away the empire to England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire

[Nivek]

yES Both infiniteape and kerblo struck in the nail than the anglophile historicician tend to ignore:

Wilhelm II was a Consitutional Monarch... with more 'nominal' power than the british but still ruled by a constitution..

And the calamities of 1888 make a deep impact to wilhelm(lose his grand and his father in the same year and being crown as the quick kaiser will affect anyone) and for that keep the 'perjudicial'(A-H is the only true ally of Germany and viceversa) than the politician tooks(his very dynamic and boombastic personalty was exploite for the politican to blame him)

interesting about the more sane and anglophile... we now gonna have a hitler who gonna outright going to destroy Britain before the Soviets?

Att
Nivek von Beldo

[Janprimus]

Seconding that. OTL Wilhelm dreamed of an alliance with Britain but did pretty much everything wrong in courting it (her?). A less self-conscious, more confident and calm Wilhelm might avoid these mistakes. It would probably not lead to a real Germanwank, but Germany's position would be massively strengthened. Thus, no need for the generals to push for a war against Russia even if relations turn sour (OTL 1914 was seen as the last year in which German Army has a chance to beat rapidly industrializing Russia; with the power of RN and the ressources of the British empire "accessible" to Germany, such concerns might lose their importance.

Actually, I alsmost think the result would be a Russiawank - Russian industrialization continues at the same pace, no massive devastation wrought by three wars, larger population, vast natural ressources accessed at much earlier time... Germany and Russia will not be able to avoid conflict as there is a massive overlap of interests - but "sane" leaders on both sides will probably channel the conflicts.

Well Wilhelm II had a real love-hate relationship with Britain and could be considered a kind of anglophile, but also a selfconscious German.
Furthermore especially in the early years of his reign he tried to be the emperor the Germans wanted; having a colonial empire and a fleet also were ways for the new Great Power The German Empire to get recognition and they had the great desire to be taken seriously. In fact the Germans ambitions were similar to the ambitions of the other Great Powers (France, Britain, Russia...) in that age of imperialism; however these domestic ambitions often couldn't be accomplished, because of the diplomatic (foreign) reality.
These tensions will remain; and a 'healthy' Wilhelm wouldn't solve all these issues.

Finally about the family disfunctionality, the Hohenzollerns seem to have been notorious for this, but Wilhelm's relation with his British relatives wasn't optimal either.

[David S Poepoe]

Really? I thought most of the OTL screaming was over the Dreadnought "race". Would Germany having more cruisers have generated the same excitement?

The British, or more importantly the Admiralty, had a history of creating 'naval scares' in order to get money from Parliament. The French and Russians had been used numerous times in the late 19th century and the Germans served the same purpose in the early 20th century.

[David S Poepoe]

UMMM... Interesting.

In OTL the expasion of the navy was something approved by both nobilities and some of the middle class(because the navy was the fully german service.. unlike the regional armies and the no existance Luftwaffe), but the debate was between Big Ships(war ships) vs Small ships( Commerce Raiders and Escort).. and we know the historical result

The problem is than a lot people in that era ignore the posibilities of the small ships(even with the less power) but if germany choose small ships. the gap betwen KM and the RN will be 3/5 rather the 1/2 parity... and that will make the pirate nation to scream....

Again the personality of Willie II was by his birth and the efects of that birth.. and his familty disfunctionality... who take 2 out with the POD.. but the third one is the tricky..

The debate between Big Ships and Small Ships during that age was the debate between the use of battleships or cruisers and torpedo boats. Not commerce raiders and escorts. The historical result was that the Small Ship school, known as the Jeune Ecole because of its French origins, lost.

The Navy, as your correctly pointed out, was greatly supported by the middle class and the burgeoning German heavy industry.

The expansion of the German Navy goes by to Kaiser Wilhelm I and was supported also by Frederick III and German naval officer corps. Tirpitz, a late convert to capital ships, and Wilhelm are all latecomers to the movement.

[B_Munro]

Let me recommend this old soc.history.what-if thread, in which a healthy Kaiser is reimagined as Mr. Toad...

PART 1

http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_thread/thread/2fe519920b55657c/0bd99c8970b2603f?lnk=gst&q=the+open+road#0bd99c8970b2603f

PART 2
http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_thread/thread/bd893e97cd54ce8f/87a89d9bfd4d2465?lnk=gst&q=the+open+road#87a89d9bfd4d2465

PART 3
http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_thread/thread/afb70f248ef253f3/12c062df1a13a240?lnk=gst&q=the+open+road#12c062df1a13a240

Bruce

[stevep]

B_Munro

Very good. :D:D

Steve

Let me recommend this old soc.history.what-if thread, in which a healthy Kaiser is reimagined as Mr. Toad...

PART 1

http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_thread/thread/2fe519920b55657c/0bd99c8970b2603f?lnk=gst&q=the+open+road#0bd99c8970b2603f

PART 2
http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_thread/thread/bd893e97cd54ce8f/87a89d9bfd4d2465?lnk=gst&q=the+open+road#87a89d9bfd4d2465

PART 3
http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_thread/thread/afb70f248ef253f3/12c062df1a13a240?lnk=gst&q=the+open+road#12c062df1a13a240

Bruce

[Mikestone8]

Finally about the family disfunctionality, the Hohenzollerns seem to have been notorious for this, but Wilhelm's relation with his British relatives wasn't optimal either.


Keep in mind that the "British" royals were also German.

The House of Hanover, in particular, was notorious for fathers and sons hating each other, and in some generations the House of Windsor has been almost as bad.

[Susano]

Keep in mind that the "British" royals were also German.
Cue Nek and/or Thande appearing in the thread and ironically and angrily dismissing the idea. Rightfully so, too - at the latest in the third Hannoverian generation they werent German anymore, and while later nominally another Germany dynasty took over, this left no cultural traces in the family at all.

Anyways, I think there is a problem both with overestimating but aqlso with underestimating Williams role. True, the Kaiserreich had as a whole a very militarist and aggressive society. However, the Emperor was the primary trendsetter, so to say. One could not simply deposit an uber-liberal Emperor and have the kaiserreich follow, but without an aggressive and diplomatcially bluntering Emperoro like William II, Germany most likely would be less aggressive, too.

[Monty Burns]

Anyways, I think there is a problem both with overestimating but aqlso with underestimating Williams role. True, the Kaiserreich had as a whole a very militarist and aggressive society. However, the Emperor was the primary trendsetter, so to say. One could not simply deposit an uber-liberal Emperor and have the kaiserreich follow, but without an aggressive and diplomatcially bluntering Emperoro like William II, Germany most likely would be less aggressive, too.

I'd say this is rather typical to someone in an influential post. If he's good and has the right ideas, he could do great good, if he's bad and has wrong ideas, he could do great harm, and if he's weak and has no ideas, his surroundings will do the work. I think with Wilhelm II we have something in the middle of the later two options - an intermediate of bad and weak. That could be better. Humans with minor disabilities tend to overcompensate those on other fields, and Wilhelm at least to me seems like a prototype of this behavior.

[Alex Richards]

Cue Nek and/or Thande appearing in the thread and ironically and angrily dismissing the idea. Rightfully so, too - at the latest in the third Hannoverian generation they werent German anymore, and while later nominally another Germany dynasty took over, this left no cultural traces in the family at all.



Well, very little. The Royals follow German traditions at Christmas, but that's the only thing that really springs to mind.