Mithras Supreme

[tom]

Could Mithraism have overshadowed Christianity?
If so, what would the world be like now?

[Norman]

Good Question. I know that Mithraism was very popular with the Roman Legions. What if the Goths and other German tribes, instead of converting to Arianism had converted to Mithra? Germanic Tribesmen were serving in the Roman Army, and the religion might have attracted them.

The structures of the christian churches is based on the adminsitrative structures in place by Rome. What if the structures of a Mithraic were based on the structures of the Legion?

Additionally, woudl the discipline of the legions have had a greater impact on the German Tribes who had converted? If it had, would they have been able to stand up better to Attilla?

Consider if the Goths and the Vandals had successfully converted to Mithra, and were more organizaed as they moved into Europe. What about the later expansion of Islam, does it happen, if so, would it accept Mithraism as it does Christianity.

What about the Eastern Empire, does it hold convert and fast to Christianity? IF so, do we now look at three major religions, Mithraism wherever the Germans settled, Christianity in the East and Islam in the Arab world?

[Tom_B]

Mithraism was esoteric and exclusively male--somewhat like Freemasonry in its "speculative" forms. I think to become an effective comptetitor to Christianity Mithrasim needs an exoteric adjunct. In might offer as a POD that Apollonius of Tyana was 1] more effective and 2] a convert to Mithraism --but of an unconvential sort. He creates some form of reformed syncretistic paganism perhaps centered around the worship of Serapis. Woman are allowed into this level of the religion. The Inner Mysteries of this reworked religion would be Mithraism.

[Norman]

Tom B:

If Mithraism had survived based on the POD you ID, would it have been more or less 'sexist' than Christianity? If less, then german conversion to Mithraism could be driven largely by the same thing that conversions to Christianity were driven - women.

Thoughts?

[DominusNovus]

What about the later expansion of Islam, does it happen, if so, would it accept Mithraism as it does Christianity.

Unlikely. I don't know the specifics of Mithraism, but I'm pretty sure its not based on Judaism as Christianity and Islam are.

[Norman]

So if we assume (even with the Butterfly effect) that Mithraism is adopted by some segment of Europe, and (big if!) Islam begins on schedule (are the parts of the world that nursed Islam unchanged?), then Mithraism and Islam are on a natural collision course.

What if the German tribes convert to a less sexist version of Mithraism (including the Goths), the Eastern Empire converts to Christianity with Constatine, and butterflies don't eliminate Islam or its major tenets?

Does this set up the possibility of a three way struggle for the mediterranean?

[DominusNovus]

ohh, this could be fun. :)

[NapoleonXIV]

Christianity has one unique aspect. Its central figure is also an historical figure, (or at least seen as one by its followers). According to C.S. Lewis, this means that in Christianity, Myth becomes History. The rise of Xtianity is therefore, a turning point in history since it allows a different view of spirituality. (In most other religions man worships a higher being. In Xtianity God is man and man is therefore, God). If Xtiantity arose and prospered becasue of this then no, Mitharaism could probably not have overshadowed it.

[Grey Wolf]

Please lose the X's

I assume we can all type well and fast

It takes no time at all to write to Christ

I am not even religious but Xian or Xtianity just demeans the discussion

It looks like a load of school kids texting each other

Not a serious discussion

Grey Wolf

[Norman]

Napoleon:

Hinduism has a lot of adherents all over the world and it is based in large part on the ancient nomadic gods of the aryan people who 'conquered' the Indian Sub-Continent. These beliefs have been around for a long time and probably have more believers today that at any point in the past.

Additionally, although Mithra predates Christianity, as I recall it is based on some pretty advanced and popular beliefs for that day and age.

In short, I am not convinced that the evidence of History support C.S. Lewis. Recent archeology suggests that the monotheism of Judeo-Christianity actually grew out of a polytheistic tribal society. At one point the jewish God seems to have been married.

There are just to many examples that suggest that even primitive religions are able to evolve with their adherents increasing sophistication.

Therefore, it is possible that Mithraism and Christianity could co-exist, adn that at one point Christianity was so concerned about the strength of Christianity it adopted many of the holidays of Mithra.

[NapoleonXIV]

I'm not really suggesting that Christianity (sorry GW) is any more advanced or evolved than any other religion, just different. Polytheistic beliefs are often very difficult and esoteric intellectually but they are still different from monotheistic beliefs and, if history is any indication, are seen as less applicable by many people to the modern world than they used to be. (note; I am not including Hindu as polytheist, although I probably should)

Another reason for Christianity's rise was that it was a good religion for slaves. Was Mithraism?

[Tom_B]

My previous post dealt with the POD of Apollonius of Tyana becoming a Mithraist but also establishing a syncretistic exoteric religion whose principal deity is Serapis with Isis as a consort. There was a great deal of interest in the Egyptian religion(s) throughout the Roman Empire in the first three centuries.

Now it will be noted that OTL Serapis was a Hellenistic composite of Osiris and the Bull God, Apis. The male clergy of the ATL religion is initiated into Secret Mysteries--which are are about Mithras with the Bull as Serapis. There is a priestess class adoring Isis but they are strictly subordinate to the Mithraist clergy.

So what I am proposing is a mechanism whereby Mithraism becomes the esoteric upper layer dominating most of the mystery relgions which were competing with Chrisitianity as well as the more traditional pagan religion of Rome. If the OTL Apollonius was not himself merely a fable he was deeply interested in eliminating the grotesque elements from pagan rituals.

As far as the notion of God becoming Man a la Christianity, Mithras emerging full grown from a rock goes part way. In this OTL version Apollonius might well be viewed as a sort of CoRedeemer with the Bull Slayer and give it a firmer historical element

Tom

[Straha]

Another reason for Christianity's rise was that it was a good religion for slaves. Was Mithraism?

even thoguht christianity was easilly adoptable, Hinduism would be a far better slave religion deu to the castes and karma system...

[Norman]

What if on the border the legions on the border with Germania pass on Mithraism to some of th elocal German Legionnaires, maybe Herman the German decides to adopt it, and then (after his great victory in the Tuetonwald), the religion is widely adopted as a warriors religion.

Later, sometime around 150 AD, a female component is added to the religion in the East, maybe based on a composite of Isus and Frejya. A Yin-Yang sort of dicotomy is adopted in the religion, and by 320 A.D most of the Germanic tribes have adopted the religion.

When the Huns move West, the now better disciplined Goths are able to withstand the onslaught, but determine to move West to find more peaceful lands. They approach the Eastern Empire, and while some serve in the Eastern Legions, most determine that the now less tolerant Christianity adopted by the Eastern conflicts with there Mithraism. After a result they move on, but only after they cause a great deal of problems throughout the Adriadic area.

The Eatern Germans, including the Goths, Vandals and related tribes move up along the border of the Empire, and finally enter into North Italy and What is now Switzerland.

The now resurgant Huns begin to threaten the Western Christian Empire, but the Goths, seeing no profit in defending Christians, particularly those who are bankrupt, move on, except for a large number who remain in North Italy (as in OTL.)

However, by now the brand of Mithrism adopted through by ther German tribes includes mysteries that can only be understood in the language of the Goths or other Germans. Since the male aspects of the religion are warrior related, the Goths begin to adopt Latinate locals into their ranks only after the adopt Mithraism and understand the mysteries.

AS in OTL, the Vandals and then the Goths enter into Spain and Southern France, where within a decade or two, local Christians begin to convert into the faith. Since the rreligion is closely assocoiated with the language, Spanish is never adopted as the language of the rulers, and except for some remnant terms used in farming and husbandry, is soon extinct except for some mountainous areas.

Meanwhile, in the East Mohamat has begun to preach, and son a desert whirlwind of steel is launched throughout Egypt, Arabia, and Palestine soon fall to the forces of Islam, but they crash against the forces of the Eastern Empire, and temporarily stop, then redirect themselves against the Vandals in North Africa.

[DominusNovus]

even thoguht christianity was easilly adoptable, Hinduism would be a far better slave religion deu to the castes and karma system...
Actually, wouldn't the Christian idea that if you're good (devout), you go directly to heaven be better than the Hindu idea that, if you're good, you move up a step on the caste ladder (and if you're bad, you move a step down)? As I understand Hinduism, basicly, a good begger might be reborn as a merchant, a good merchant might be reborn as a general, a good general might get reborn as a princess, a good princess might get reborn as a prince, who could then go on to whatever comes after this. Meanwhile, Christianity says that if you believe their teachings, you go to heaven. Maybe I'm just lazy, but that seems a better deal to me.

[DominusNovus]

Since the rreligion is closely assocoiated with the language, Spanish is never adopted as the language of the rulers, and except for some remnant terms used in farming and husbandry, is soon extinct except for some mountainous areas.

I thought Spanish came around much later, basicly as a mix of the local romance language (proto-spanish?) and arabic. Could be wrong, of course.

[tom]

DominusNovus:
Of course, in Christianity, if you die having just committed one mortal sin after a virtuous life (Catholic) or a few minutes before the missionary (who had a flat tire) arrives to tell you to accept Jesus (Protestantism), you go to a place of everlasting screaming agony, instead of just going down a step and getting a second chance.

[DominusNovus]

DominusNovus:
Of course, in Christianity, if you die having just committed one mortal sin after a virtuous life (Catholic) or a few minutes before the missionary (who had a flat tire) arrives to tell you to accept Jesus (Protestantism), you go to a place of everlasting screaming agony, instead of just going down a step and getting a second chance.
To the first point, thats why they're mortal sins. Its kinda hard to lapse into commiting one. And you can be forgiven for them, but, being the good Catholic that I am, I've forgoten if official Church doctrine says that you need a priest. I'm pretty sure that it doesn't.
As to the second point, thats one of the reasons I'm Catholic (that and I'm too arrogant to think God would let me be raised in the wrong religion). :D Seriously though, if you've never heard of the religion, of course its not as good as the one that you have heard of.

[Norman]

With respect to Spanish. I was once told by one of my language teachers that Spanish is Latin as it is spoken in Spain today. Even during the days that Iberia belonged to the Empire there were significant language differences that were certain to multiply.

Modern Spanis is esssentially Latin with some gothic and Arabic overlays.

[DuQuense]

IIRC the Major diff between Christianity and Mithrasism has to do with the Sacrifice.
In Christian doctrine we look at the Sacrifice [IE Christ is the focus]
In Mithras doctrine we look at the Sacrificer {ie Judas is the focus}
The Gospel according to Judas, :rolleyes: :rolleyes: whould be full of ?Why Jesus Picked Judas?, :confused: to be the one to sacrifice Him.
As for Islam IIRC Allah was the God of the Arabs for hundreds of years before Mohammad was kicked out of Mecca for trying to reform the Christians.
Mohammad simply adapted him for his new religion :D

[tom]

DominusNovus:
IIRC, you need Perfect Contrition to be absolved without a priest...you have to be absolutely unselfish and pure, just your Love of God, not any fear of Hell.
And there is also the Doctrine of Predestination, that most people are doomed to Hell from the beginning of time no matter what they do...but that is even worse!

[DominusNovus]

DominusNovus:
IIRC, you need Perfect Contrition to be absolved without a priest...you have to be absolutely unselfish and pure, just your Love of God, not any fear of Hell.
And there is also the Doctrine of Predestination, that most people are doomed to Hell from the beginning of time no matter what they do...but that is even worse!
Thats why I never got Calvinism.

[Norman]

You know this is interesting, there was just a program on the history channel yesterday that touched upon Mithraism and its attractiveness to the legions. Seems that the central to the religion was the concept of Mithra killing a bull in a dark cave as a metaphor for creation.

In addition, the ceremonies took place in dark and cave like, smoke filled places.

The program went on to state that the only religion not adopted by the legions to any large extent was Christianity. It seems that the core mythos of the relgion didn't appeal to the legionnaires.

It is interesting to speculate that the core ritual of the relgion might involve a struggle with a bull.

[Tom_B]

You know this is interesting, there was just a program on the history channel yesterday that touched upon Mithraism and its attractiveness to the legions. Seems that the central to the religion was the concept of Mithra killing a bull in a dark cave as a metaphor for creation.

In addition, the ceremonies took place in dark and cave like, smoke filled places.

The program went on to state that the only religion not adopted by the legions to any large extent was Christianity. It seems that the core mythos of the relgion didn't appeal to the legionnaires.

It is interesting to speculate that the core ritual of the relgion might involve a struggle with a bull.

The following website might to helpful to this discussion. It argues that Misthraism was about the ending of the Age of Taurus,

http://www.well.com/user/davidu/mithras.html

[Norman]

Another pretty good site is:

http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/Topics/Religion/Mithraism/David_Fingrut**.html#per

Notice that Mitaism contains many of the same elements of Christianity, for example, read the following:

"While Mithras was worshipped almost exclusively by men, most of the wives and daughters of the Mithraists took part in the worship of Magna Mater, Ma-Bellona, Anahita, Cybele, and Artemis. These goddess religions practiced a regeneration ritual known as the Taurobolium, or bull sacrifice, in which the blood of the slaughtered animal was allowed to fall down upon the initiate, who would be lying, completely drenched in a pit below. As a result of their association with practitioners of this rite, Mithraists soon adopted the Taurobolium ritual as their own.

This baptism of blood became a renewal of the human soul, as opposed to mere physical strength. Mithraic baptism wiped out moral faults; the purity aimed at had become spiritual. The descent into the pit was regarded as symbolic burial, from which the initiate would emerge reborn, purified of all his crimes and regarded as the equal of a god. Those who made it through the Taurobolium were revered by their brethren, and accepted in the fold of Mithraism."

One can see that with a couple of small changes, these practices and ceremonies parallel very closely some major Christian practices that are central to the faith.

[Norman]

The best place to POD to a Mithras domination of Christianity is when Constanttine deceides to become Christian. He orders the empire to become Christian, but some Legions, stationed along the Northern Border and the Danube decide not to convert from their Mithraism.

Rather than convert, these legions (which were largely made up of the surrounding tribes anyway) merely cross the border and become part of the surrounding tribes.

We know that in OTL the 15th Appolonious Legion, after the fall of Jerusaum in 70 AD was stationed on the Danube border where they brought the religion. Additionally, we also know that the Northern legions (facing the Germans) also professed Mithraism, as is shown by extensive archeological remains.

If they were to move over to the other side of the border, taking their religion with them, Mithra undergoes a cross confusion with Donner / Thor. Mithras mace becomes a hammer, and the tribes go over en masse, attracted by the more positive stance of Mithraism compared to the german religions.

Mithraism, with its built in hierarchical structure that is based upon a military rand structure, with loyalty flowing to the ruler, is used as a tool by several of the germanic and gothic kings to bring order to the lands north of the Roman borders.

[tom]

Could Constantine have actually made Mithraism the official religion?
I understand he originally leaned that way.
Also, the female cults would help, maybe a reformer to make them more popular (some of them had rather bizarre and even pornographic practices). Or perhaps a reformer to make absolution a little easier in Mithraism, this was an attraction of Christianity in the rather rough days of the declining Empire (notice Constantine waited until he was dying and finished all his sins to be baptised). What I read says Mithraic absolution was more arduous than Christianity's was.

[Tom_B]

Could Constantine have actually made Mithraism the official religion?
I understand he originally leaned that way.
Also, the female cults would help, maybe a reformer to make them more popular (some of them had rather bizarre and even pornographic practices). Or perhaps a reformer to make absolution a little easier in Mithraism, this was an attraction of Christianity in the rather rough days of the declining Empire (notice Constantine waited until he was dying and finished all his sins to be baptised). What I read says Mithraic absolution was more arduous than Christianity's was.

The problem with your proposal is that Mithraism was an esoteric (for the specially initiated) religion unlike Christianity which was an exoteric relgion (but with some esoteric elements here and there).

[tom]

Maybe a reformer to make Mithraism more exotheric?

[tom]

Here's a good URL:
http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/History/By_Topic/Social_History/Religion/Ancient/Mithraism/?tc=1

[tom]

Probably best would be Norman's suggestion of a Germanic adoption of Mithraism post-Constantine. Mithra fused with Thor and Isis with Freya. The process (or a reformer) makes Mithraism more exoteric (it had to have some exoteric elements...it lasted half a millennium, so it had to make converts). Also, absolution in Medieval Christianity was not trivial, so that "disadvantage" may not be as serious as some claim.

[Norman]

Tom-
If we have the Germanic tribes adopt Mithrasm, and they roughly follow the course of the historical migrations, then we have Roman Catholism centered in Italy, parts of Frace, parts of Spain, and Ireland. We have Eastern Christianity centered around the Eastern Empire, and Coptic Christianity in Egypt.

Do the butterflies put into play by this scenario disrupt the formation of Islam?

[Tom_B]

Maybe Mithraism converts some Druids who add some elements of their religion into Mithraism. Druidism was a two level relgion--an exoteric relgion for the masses and an esoteric religion of Mysteries for the Initiated (ie. the Druids).

However note that both the Germanic folk relgion and Druidism still practiced human sacrifice which would be repugnant to Roman Mithraists.

There is some discussion of Mithraism in Poul Anderson's Ys trilogy (he had a coauthor--was it Sandra Miesel?) where the protagonist is a Roman Centurion who is a Mithraist.

[Norman]

Replace the ritual human sacrifice with that a bull, but also build a pragmatic approach that permits some aspect of public symbolism for the actual death. A real bull doesn't die except on the highest of holidays, merely some symbolic aspect of a bull.

I like the idea of the infusion of other religious elements into the European practice of Mithraism, this is what the early Christians did and it worked for them.

I also suggest that we let the butterflies take out Islam, replacing it with a more aggressive Coptic Church, which competes directly with the Eastern Church of Constantanople.

For fun, remember that Bhuddism was practiced in Afghanistan in and around this time (The taliban shot up the remaining statutes). What if the Mongols adopt Bhuddism, but make it into a militant religion? Then later, when the Mongols erupt onto the world scene, they are screaming war cries to the Great Bhudda as tehy cut off peoples heads.

[Straha]

the idea of mongols getting hinduism has always been interesting

[tom]

This TL should help Julian the Apostate. And the Dark Age will fall...it was already descending. But OTL's Islam will be different at best...butterflies will certainly devour Mahommad!

[Norman]

OK, so let's see where we are.

Mithraic border legions 'defect' to the barbarian kings that they are facing, bring their religion with them. In the East this has relatively little effect, but along the borders it has a big impact. Almost overnight the Empire is gone.

The wild barbarians take up the religion, attracted by bravery and military success of its adherents, and in the process Mithra absorbs some of Thor’s attributes, and Frejya some of the attribute of the Isis cult.

The religion also develops more grand public ceremonies to please the broad populace, but retains the mystery cult aspects for initiates.

One aspect of the broad adoption of Mithraism is that the german tribes become more disciplined in battle, beginning to actually listen to their generals and war leaders. As a result, more survive battle, thereby ensuring the expansion of the religion throughout Europe.

The more disciplined Goth Armies around the Black Sea are better able to resist the Huns, conquering them in battle several times. But news of the wealth associated with the Roman Empire reaches the leaders they determine to take advantage of the weakenss of the West by grabbing as much of it as they can. As a result they move west pretty much on the same time frame they did OTL.

The East Germans move into North Italy, pushing the Roman remnants, where they continue to practice Christianity, but North Italy becomes almost totally Germanic, particularly over the next hundred years as the Lombards move in.

Further to the North, the Franks gain the ascendancy, and to the West in Iberia, the Vandals now rule. All these tribes are Mithraic tribes.

Around 400-500 AD the British Isles come under the onslaught of the German tribes (Angles, Saxons Etc.), but unlike OTL, both the British and the Germans practice basically the same religion learned from the same source, the remaining legions. There are some differences however, the British Mithraism has also adopted some of the attributes of the native religions, in particular some practices associated with Druids.

Importantly, unlike in the rest of Europe, this Mitraism has undergone a sort of intellectual and philosophical transformation, introducing symbolic practices into the religion and abandoning the harsher elements of both druidic and german religious practices.

By 600, human sacrifice is gone as a central practice of any of the local flavors of Mithraism, and the British Isles have developed into a major center for learning and philosophy related to Mithraism.

One important aspect of Mithraism is the loyalty one owes one's War Leader. As a result, the Western political scene stabilizes earlier than in OTL into a sort of crude representative democracy. War bands but forth leaders in an area, extolling their virtues and bravery, and the only requirement is that you are a member of such a band who is above the initiate (“Friends”) level, during the ‘Althing’, a time set aside to settle disputes and lawsuits.

(Since Mithra is also a God of Law and Contracts,

However the final selection is performed by the Old Father, Mithraic warriors who are known for their virtue to Mithra, brave deeds and good works. Only after the Old Fathers have selected someone can that person be crowned King.

[Tom_B]

Mithraism is still primarily an esoteric religion. It nows allows some "shadows of the Truth" and lesser rituals to be shared with the general populace. A consequence of this is that unlike Christianity their major theological squabbles will be happening in private (there is one exception that I'll mention later). I imagine small gatherings of Fathers will occur from time to time and in utmost secrecy they will argue--often heatedly. But it "stays in this room" so to speak. Indeed revealing Mithraic secrets will be a capital offense. Also they were very reluctant to put too much of the Mysteries to writing. So while Mithraism will subtly influence the prevailing philosophy, the formal rigorous theology of Scholasticism will not happen. One benefit of this is that the bizarre sectarianism of Christianity where mobs of those who believe the Son has the Same Substance as the Father fight the mobs of those who believe the Son has Similar Substance.

Another benefit is that the military is given a firm moral foundation--sort of cross between chivalry, bushido and the Templars. The military are going to be restrained and better educated. The pious warrior/scholar/initiate could emerge as a cultural icon. Christianity only reluctantly embraced the warrior as a necessary evil and the evolution of chivalry took time.

Oh, my wild card is Gnosticism. Historically most of Gnosticism was a distorted form of Christianity (mixed with a corrupted form of NeoPlatonism). If Mithraism remains strong a Gnostic corruption of Mithraism seems likely.

[Norman]

Tom:

Excellent! Takes care of my 'black box' approach to the philosophical differences. (i.e. a question goes into the black box and something happens and it comes out fixed.)

Norman

[tom]

Does this look right?
Yellow=Catholic
Brown=Mithraist
Green=Orthodox
Purple=Coptic

[Norman]

Have North Spain, Italy,and an area around the Black Sea be Mitraic and I think we got it.

Also consider whether the Baltics are Eastern or Mitraic.

I like Ireland being Western Christian.

DO we want parts of Southern Spain to be Coptic???

[Tom_B]

If you butterfly Islam into the Null Set then I think you would see the robust survival of Nestorianism in parts of Asia.

[basileus]

With respect to Spanish. I was once told by one of my language teachers that Spanish is Latin as it is spoken in Spain today. Even during the days that Iberia belonged to the Empire there were significant language differences that were certain to multiply.

Modern Spanis is esssentially Latin with some gothic and Arabic overlays.

Spanish was born as a language in the Asturian and Cantabrian mountains during the Dark Ages, when 80% of Spain was in the hands of the Arabs - and in Arabo-Spanish cities Mozarabic, a NEOLATIN dialect curiously similar to Italian, was spoken.
Spanish (or better:Castellano) was a Latin spoken bey people doubly influecnced by a Basque and Celtic ancentry/linguistic substrate (which explains why lactis--->leche (milk), Celtic tendence, or the impossibility to make a double consonantic nexus beginning a word, e.g. the name Esteban (Stephen), or the enphatic r, the last two residuals of Basque, maybe the second of ancient Iberian.
Obviously,it already contained some Germanic words - but less than you can expect in a country dominated by Goths for three centuries, simply b/c the Gothic language went out of use already in the 6th century even amongst the elite.
Arabic has given a peculiar character to Spanish; it contains A LOT of Arab vocabulary, so much as to make you swar b/c some words have absolutely no clue as to what's their meaning for the averagin Neo-Latin speaker.

[tom]

Is this better?

[Norman]

Looks good!

What conflicts are likely to erupt, and what countries are likely to exist?

[tom]

One idea I had would be giving Rome some special status, due to its historical significance, its location near a border, and the fact that both Catholicism and Mithraism have their leaders there.
BTW, as a Catholic myself, I would vote for Catholicism being very similar to 4th Cen Catholicism, before it got its power into its head. Most of the later controversies might be less likely in a world where the Church is not the top dog and more likely to circle the wagons, and the entangling State affairs would be less likely where the Church is an 18 pound monkey instead of an 800 pound gorilla.

[tom]

Three Catholic countries: Ireland, south Spain, and south Italy + islands.
A good place for conflict might be that Mithraic nation by the Black Sea.
Would the Coptic religion be influenced by Nestorianism, and the Orthodox by Gnosticism, as the Mithraic one was by Teutonic Paganism?
Also, what would be a good reason for the German tribes flocking to Mithraism here and not in OTL? Some centurion (Wodinthane? Or a better name?) who was killed in OTL who becomes the "Lion of Mithras" in the ATL?

[tom]

One more thought:
This map may just work out for the 20th Century as well. The Orthodox Churches were already drifting away centuries before 1054, and most of the Muslim conquests were made within a century of Mohammed's death. Except for Spain's Reconquista, a religious map of Europe in the 10th Century would look a lot like one in the 20th, if you kept in mind the Eastern Churches were de facto different, if not de jure.

[Norman]

When the legions, under the leadership of Guisureth Hratgason, a popular and successful leader, 'defect' to the German tribes across the border (circa 312 - 320) after Constantine declares for Christianity. Joining the Goths in the East, they are faced with some jockying for power between the gothic King (I forget his name, but I think it is Eormanric), and several competitors. In OTL the competition contributed to the breakup of the Goths into east and west. but in this, the newly arrived legions support the king, stabilizing the kingdom.

In exchange for hte support, the king names Guisureth to be a member of the his tribe, adopting him directly into his family. This puts Guisureth in line for the 'throne'.

Although the Goths were at this time extremely warlike (so much so that the translater of the bible into Gothic would translate the battle scenes on the grounds that they didn't need encouragement), Guisureth's success in battle begins to attract followers to the religion from among the tribesmen. It is at this point that the Mithras begins to take on attributes of Thor, a highly popular german god.

The two important changes that come with the legions are: 1) medical techniques which were (for that time and place) very advanced, and 2) improved discipline of the Mithraic tribal warriors. In addition, Wulfingas (?) the Christian missionary arrives and translates the bible in to Gothic. This act begins to attract some adherents, but also provokes a sort of mini-counter literacy among the followers of Mithra, and the basic tenets of the faith are written down. Christians are soon surpressed, but the literacy they brought continues to grow. It is at this time that the Mithraic 'Fathers' become literate.

As a result, when the Huns begin to filter into Europe in and around 320 A.D. there are actually some pretty good troops there to resist them. The goths defeat the Huns in a series of stunning victories, despite some overwhelming odds.

One aspect of this defeat of the Huns are several tales of incredible strength and bravery that the 'skalds / scops' turn into epic length poems and take to the rest of the Northern peoples. Central to these poems is the concept that Mithra brings success in battle.

Soon even the most distant heathen has heard of Mithra, and many send messnagers to ask about the religion.

[tom]

Some more thoughts:
1) This TL is likely to be less warlike than OTL, since Mithraism seemed to be more accepting of other beliefs than Christianity and thus things like the 30 Year War are less likely. This might slow down technological development.
2) There are likely to be a thousand Mithraists in this timeline for each one in OTL. "Three can keep a secret, if two are dead." It is virtually certain that the doctrines and theology of Mithraism will be common knowledge by 2004.
3) With the map I drew, it seems likely that the New World will be colonized by Mithraists, making the religion even more dominant in this ATL.
4) We could probably assume that the national borders are similar to OTL for the first century or two after the POD, but then the different migrations and such will reach this level. Ian has a link on the old site to some great map websites that give ancient and medieval maps of Europe that may be interesting here. Anyone know enogh of history 4th-6th century to give a good ATL map for 600 AD?

[tom]

Here (from a role playing game) is a view of what the feminine side of this timeline might be like:

http://www.doleos.demon.co.uk/roleplay/cultofisis/Cult%20Primer.pdf

[Tom_B]

More thoughts about the esoteric problem in Mithraism. In Christianity one got brutally executed for saying something regarded by the authorities as False (ie. heresy). In Mithraism you could executed very brutally for saying something that is regarded as True by the authorities (ie. revealing the secret Mysteries). One thing to use and as analogy of Freemasonry where revealing the secrets of the society warranted gruesome executions. Yet there are books in all our public libraries outlining Masonic "secret" rituals. How can this be? Well (contrary to some forms of the mental illness which is Conspiracy Theory) the Masons do not have rigid contol of our society. But a Mithraic society would for a while be able to surpress the public dissemination of its innermost Mysteries. But the fly in the ointment might be neighboring lands where a form of Christianity is dominant. There the inner Mysteries of Mithras would be in print--but probably in a calumnous form--think about Leo Taxil's revealations about the Freemasons which the supposedly liberal Pope Leo swallowed completely. This actually should cause at least one good sized Christian/Mithraist Jihad. Just because you don't have Islam doesn't mean you can't have holy wars.

[tom]

Good point, Tom B!
And now, submitted for your approval (yeah, ssssuuuuurrrreeee) is my first draft of 7th Century Mithraic Europe.
Spania is olive green, Eerland is yellow, as is Italia. Saxonland is purple, the other English kingdoms are brown, as are the Gothic kingdoms north and east of Spania. Basque territory is light green, and Burgunland is red. Gothland is olive green and is north of Italia, and Mithraland is Brown and north of Gothland. The Norse realm is yellow and called Thorland. Nova Roma is light green, the stronghold of Eastern "Orthodox" Christianity. Aura is west of the Black Sea. I think that's it.
If this passes muster, I will try to build on it a couple centuries at a time.

[tom]

Hope second time is the charm...

[Norman]

Tom-

Just as my alternate history self remembers it!! Good job.

[tom]

Here are some things which might happen in the 8th or 9th Centuries:
1) Dayem the Great (my psychiatrist...he's an Eqyptian) conquers Turkey for Coptic Christianity.
2) Holy war against Italia or Spania for spilling the beans about Mithraism.
3) Holy war by Nova Roma against the "idolaters" of Aura.
4) Saxonland takes over rest of Britain.
5) Mithraland speads south and west.
6) Mithraland and Thorland get into a war over control of Baltic and North Seas.
7) Eerland has scism with Roman Church, due to different cultural background.
8) Mithraland, Gothland and Thorland gang up on Nova Roma (perhaps as a result of 3).
9) Burgunland has schism with Mithraism.
10) Arabia has schism with Coptic Christianity (but this would not be Islam, even if it has some surface similarities with OTL Islam).
How do these sound?
Any other suggestions?

[Norman]

In 683, the Egyptians, under the leadership of Dayem the Great, (now known as the Father of Psychological Warfare), devised a scheme to take Jeruselum away from the Eastern Empire of Byzatium. He began to spread the tale of a great plague in his lands, some few merchants (well paid and therfore trusted), told tales of bodies in the streets. Soon most trade was stopped by the Byzantines until the truth could be learned.

In the meantime, he had assembled an army near the border of the Byzantin Empire to the South, and on August 2, 650, invaded and captured the Holy Land, requiring all pilgrims from Byzatium to pay a hefty fee to visit the hold places.

This set into place a series of small wars as Byzatium attempted to recapture the Holy Land.

[Tom_B]

Is there a compelling reason for Mithraland to be so unified? It makes scripting AH easier but I don't find it very likely in this time period. What I think would happen is there is a divison into fairly small feudal territories. The Mithraic Fathers would try to restrain and control behind the scenes but if the Grand Baron of LaLa Land gets too loopy they get their lower level initiates to depose him usually with extreme prejudice. On the whole their influence is benign but in matters involving people revealing their secrets it would be a repressive force. Nobody's perfect.

Oh and one name to consider for a Mithraic dominated nation should be New Phrygia.

[tom]

I spent a bit of time preparing a 9th or 10th Century map before reading your replies...let's consider it a rough draft.
Maybe New Phrygia might be good some centuries later for the Western Hemisphere?

Burgunland (purple) and the Basques (green) have lost some ground in the last couple centuries. The Petty kingdoms of the Iberian peninsula got into an alliance (The Pride of Lions) due to a war with Spania (which Spania lost). The Saxons (and Angles and Jutes) now own all of Britain. Mithrasland is breaking up, especially in the north (and so is Gothland in the mountainous areas) (see, I was thinking a little along those lines). The lowland Mithralanders are completely separate now. Turkey is now Coptic. Nova Roma got into several wars with Thorland (which it won) and Mithrasland (which it lost). It is also breaking up, the Baltic people (blue) and Slavic people (light green) and Hellenics (light green) leaving a north and a south section still nominally part of the empire, although they are moving towards independence with the loss of the Eastern Capitol. Aura has grown somewhat as a result. Also, since Mithraland was more "Roman" in its view of Mithraism than Thorland, this means the religion is a little bit more "classical"

I will be glad to work with you on polishing up a better map for 900 AD.

[tom]

Gee, the Baltics looked more different thaan that before I posted it!
I look forward to working with Tom B and Norman...I want to post this to the IA background (and use it, if that background gets off the ground) and three heads are better than one. I am very weak on pre-modern history, so you can help me a lot...just as I could probably help you if you were designing a solar system.
I was wondering...would Mithraism spread "disinformation" to counter and confuse leaked secrets, or is that a stupid idea?

[Diamond]

Good job, guys; this is really original. I like it!

[tom]

And my yellows look light brown!
I got so surprised I messed up I checked the original picture...it had the colors I remember. Wassup!?

[Norman]

Hey, speaking of wars, let's have our Buddhist Mongols attack all over the place between 1100 and 1310.

[tom]

From Norman's personal message:

Back to your question. We know a couple of things, first, the legions were pretty good medics. There was an interesting program on the history channel that suggested that despite being in battle all the time, legionnaires actually had a longer life expectancy than ordinary roman citizens. If we assume that this carries over into a time line, we probably have early advances in medicine and chemistry.

Further, since Mithraism was much more celestially oriented, it is likely we would have had earlier astronomical and navigational advances.

We could tie this to a fact I just learned today, the goths actually began to use boats to raid the Eastern Roman Empire soon after they arrived in the Black Sea area. (seems they took over some ships and went asailing.)

I am a little unclear in some of the other areas, but chemistry would certainly suggest metalurgy would soon follow.

So let's try these
1200: Medical advances suggest the existance of something suggestive of germs and bacteria. (They can't see them yet. but they know they exist and how to prevent the spread)
1150: Discovery or improvement of recipes for gun powder. Initially used in bombs but eventually applied to primitive weopens.
1312: Wide spread literacy combines with improved knowledge of metals and how to work them produces moveable type and publishing. 1325 Mysteries of Mithraism published in Gotland

[tom]

Maybe the Little Ice Age started earlier?
Such minor climate fluctuations are sensitive to tiny perturbations, maybe even on the scale our ATL is producing. This could cause the Mongols to get pushy earlier. Or maybe it is the Buddhism, or an earlier Khan.

[Tom_B]

Perhaps alchemy develops sooner in a Mithraic society as predominantly a spiritual discipline. Medieval alchemy developed OTL in part as a spiritual discipline though historians argue over how large was that part. Recall that the touchstone work of Rosicrucianism is the Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz. However this Hermetic discipline was something of a countercurrent to the Christian religion (Jungians argue it was a reaction to psychological inadequacies in Christianity) while in Mithraism it would be more in sync. From Alchemy you go to chemistry.

[Norman]

A young MOngol boy named Temujin, and his family are basically made outcasts from the safety of his tribe, and begin to wander the fringes of the nomadic Mongol areas.

During this time of trial, he meets a Buddhist monk who aids both he and his family, and as a result, Temujin begins to feel some identification with the Buddha, particularly when he learns of his noble birth and subsequent wanderings.

But this new found identification with Buddha proves to be only a veneer on the young mongol boy, and as he fights his way to the top of his tribe, his perspective on these teachings changes. He comes to believe that the conqueror is a valid ncarnation and step to a balanced state of being. In other words, he sees himself as a sort of buddha with attitude.

Shamans and religious hoaxsters are able over the years, develop a sort of core set of mongol buddhist beliefs that are consistent with Temujin's personal beliefs.

Through a combination of adroit political moves and strong arm tactics, Temujin is declared Genghis Khan in 1206 by other Mongol chieftains. Since his brand of Buddhism includes the Conqueror as a valid incarnation of Buddha, his position soon also has taken on many religious aspects.

He determines to bring his brand of Buddhism to the world, and in this TL his conquests mirror those of OTL. Originally seeking to conquer China he eventually turns to easier 'pickings' and expands into the West, conquering the Uzbeks and many Turks, forceably converting them to Buddhism.

Finally his hordes careen into the growing Orthodox and Mithric areas of our Russias and the Baltics where, in a stunning series of battles, the mongol hordes are held but not defeated, first by the byzantine Orthodox, and then by a smaller but very well disciplined Mithric force made up of soldiers from throughout Europe.

Unfortunately, by the time the dust settles on all this, Persia and several other Kingdoms have fallen to the Brutal forces of Buddha.

[tom]

Sorry, Norman, but by this time the sky is filled with butterflies the size of 747s. No way would our Gengis Khan be born. I am open to suggestions, but with my belief in the Butterfly Effect this is a no starter, like my dogma that the Apostalic Succession must be unbroken.
I figured an earlier Mongol warlord-to-be (name, anyone?) meets the monk. By 1200 the Golden Horde of the Buddha (green) is pushing into Europe, and has begun pressuring the Coptic Empire (brown). Lappland (brown) is de facto independent, although claimed by both the northern Thorist nation (green) and Rusland (light blue)(anyone know if that name would exist?). Gothland (light blue) has conquered Italia, although a special arrangement allowed the Pope to remain in Rome, and Leoland (dark blue) has taken Spania. Eerland has put some small settlements on New Eerland (OTL Iceland) and Mithrasland has crumbled in the west (barons of Lalaland) although further east they tend to stick together, being a LEETLE to close to the big events going on with the Coptic Empire and the Golden Horde. And a sailing ship, long lost in a storm has just returned with an amazing story. They were shipwrecked on a land far to the west, where a tribe of bronze-skinned natives helped them rebuild their ship. They called the discovery New Phrygia and the tales of the natives hint that the land may rival Europe in size.

[Norman]

Oh I quite agree on the name, it can really be anything, I just didn't have another.

The big thing is you keep the monk, I would have been sorry to see him go.

[DominusNovus]

Plus, Genghis Khan was basicly his title, so whoever unites the mongols will be Genghis Khan.

[Tom_B]

A few on line suggestions

Have the monk killed by a fanatic Mongol shaman. The Golden Horde does not want to force people to convert to Buddhism but rather their Fearless Leader wants to be the Protector of the Dharma (which I would prefer to Conqueror) where the whole world is made safe for Buddhist monks.

I think Hermeticism is sort of what Mithraism would evolve into (with some moderate differences of course). Interest in astrology, arcane convoluted philosophy, alchemy (think Paracelsus), a Grail type holy warrior mythology. In OTL these were a countercurrent to Chrisitianity in its Catholic and most of its Protestant formulations (but people like Boehme are an exception). In evolving Mithraism they are the current not the countercurrent.

One consequence is that anything sounding Hermetic (eg. interest in alchemy or astrology) will be considered to be Mithraic contamination in the Christian sphere of influence (Coptics would be no better than the Roman Church) and viewed with much hostility and repression.

The nature of warfare. Mithraists might be less inclined to elevate the knight over the lowly infantryman to the degree that was done OTL. Instead they might emphasize "combined arms" where infantry and cavalry work in sync.
I think when they first get hold of gunpowder they would develop sappers and grenadiers before artillery and small arms.

[Norman]

I agree with Tomb, a Mithra based culture would probably be a bit less "knightly", because the religion almost emphaizes an earthly progression through the ranks, rather than some grand thing that occurs after a persons death.

There were evidently seven ranks of followers, ranging from an initiate (raven) to the highest (father), I forget the ones inbetween and I don't have the paper in front of me.

I think the ability to rise through the ranks would have profound impact on TTL's middle ages.

[Diamond]

I think the ability to rise through the ranks would have profound impact on TTL's middle ages.

Probably no feudalism as it existed in OTL; something radically different and merit-based instead.

[Norman]

merit based yes, democratic? - I'm not so certain. Would this stifle innovation or would a Mithraic belief in order and progression allow for the development of the scientific method earlier, particularly since the middle ages would probably be less "dark"?

[Tom_B]

merit based yes, democratic? - I'm not so certain. Would this stifle innovation or would a Mithraic belief in order and progression allow for the development of the scientific method earlier, particularly since the middle ages would probably be less "dark"?

My hypothesis is that the Germanic warlords would still come to rule in a feudal system. Initially the Mithraists seeing a need for stability in times of trouble would accept succession by inheritance as OK as long as the system doesn't let ogres and twits come to power. If that happens they would organize the faithful and make the necessary changes. Sort of secret commisars if you will.

This system would not be perfect (this TL shouldn't get too idyllic) and some Earls of Twitdom will try to survive by becoming Initiated--which I suspect would usually work but not in the more severe instances.

The military itself would emphasize merit more than bloodlines. Though one imperfection is that mediocre officers who become high grade initiates (Runners of the Sun?) might prosper more than unitiated military geniuses.
This may not be completely bad either because advancement in Mithraic grade will probably be tied to ethical conduct and this will prevent tactically brilliant psychopaths from rising too high.

[Norman]

Maybe a merging of the German Tribal warlord / Mithraic Father roles. As you rise in rank in both spiritual and military through your successes, you gain followers who are attracted to your success.

True, as in any society, fathers will take care of sins, but no soldier will willingly sign on under a leader who is stupid, even the holiest chose martyrdom as a last resort [assuming some degree of sanity].

So what you get are elements in the society that are merit based and militant. In time you will have competing societal elements, including mercantile and governmental, which may be a little less merit based.

[tom]

Here is 1500 Mithraic Europe:

[tom]

Saxonland, Eerland, Thorland and Leoland have also planted a string of colonies on the east coast of New Phrygia and have begun exploring the southern continent (name, anyone?) as well. Thorland has reunited in a shakey union, and Slavland has both stopped the Golden Horde and thrown off its Germanic overlings. The Coptic Empire has broken up in a welter of schisms, counterschisms, heresies and counterheresies after the Golden Hordes turned their attention to China. Mithrasland's luck has run out, and in the Little Ice Age caused famines, plagues and complete governmental breakdown into squabbling warlords. Gothland has taken the Italic islands, so the only Catholic nations are the Eerish ones (the Pope has been driven to Eerland). Leoland has weathered several inconclusive wars with the Copts. The Golden Horde is still nominally unified, but is divided into several areas since the time of Khan's sons and there are growing internal strains. Outside poor former Mithrasland, nationalism is forming and there are hints of an embroyonic Industrial Revolution on the horizon. Science and technology are roughly comparable to early or middle 1700s OTL.
How does it sound?
Hints for 1800 status, anyone?

[tom]

One constraint on 1800 Mithras...I pretty much figure that 1805 will correspond to about 1965 OTL and that there will be a thermonuclear exchange. I want to use this world in the IA setting, and that means it cannot be very far ahead of us, and I figure the 1965-1970 timeframe is good for a World War to knock us back a century or two, but not quite knock us out. Also, I do not have a clue what the late 22nd Century would be like.

[Tom_B]

A suggestion here that should be considered both here and in other TL's with nukes. The development of nuclear weapons can be different from OTL where the pattern was that the Manhattan Project feverishly pursued both U235 weapons and plutonium weapons, succeeded with both, soon abandoned the U235 bombs and then propelled by a combination of Cold War hysteria and Teller's Ego quickly developed thermonuclear weapons. It is very possible to have a an ATL where the U235 weapons could be developed well before the plutonium bombs and/or the followon to Hbomb takes much longer than OTL. The physics is simplest for the U235 bomb (and contrary to a common misconception does not require relativity), more complicated for plutonium weapons and still more complxx for fusion weapons (requiring quantum mechanics)

[tom]

From Norman's PM:

Let's consider what is happening in New Phrygia, we have a European Disease environment, and pretty strong population growth in Europe (due to a better understanding of basic hygiene).

Countering these pressures, we probably have Mithraic warrior 'societies' / war bands, that seek out the best warriors and don't really care where they come from, only that they are good.

I believe that this would result in fairly fast westward expansion of ideas, techniques and even people, but also an integration of larger indian groups into the grand scheme of things. Native Warrior societies would eat up some of Mithrasm's belief systems, and the Mithraic hierarchy with it's ravens, lions and other symbols, would also be attractive to warriors.

But the expansion will run into the extremely bloody and violent Aztecs (Nahuatl). Do they run into them before or after the technology has arrived?, I think after, so we have the Nahuatl Empire in the South expanding into our Northern Mexico and South Texas, a bunch of (by now) nomadic tribesmen with both horses and Mithraic overlays on top of native belief systems, and (from the East) a European dominated Mithraic culture.

By this time the Nahuatl are probably armored, not many horses, although some are beginning to arrive, so they'd be largely infantry.

Facing them we have very mobile, ightly armored tribesmen, backed by the more advanced Eastern Kingdoms of New Phyria.

[Dan Guy]

Do u know any of the germanic and gaulish states?
Iberia looks united was it part of a christian conquest?

[tom]

Dan:
Do you mean names by "know"?
I did not bother to name them.
"Iberia" (Leoland) is Mithraic.

[tom]

Decided to go one century at a time...things are happening faster and faster and besides, that is how people usually know history.
Got to use the world map now...so at least you can see it in one look.
New Phrygia is four nations. Going north to south, they are New Thorland, New Saxonland, New Leoland and whatever the Aztecs would call their land (settlement of the three Mithraic ones is still concentrated in the east).
South America (name, someone) has some straggly Mithraic settlements but is claimed by the Incan Empire.
The eastern part of old Mithrasland has reunited and is called Mithrasland by its inhabitants, and New Mithrasland by everybody else. This was helped by an attempted expansion by the Khanate of Sabir in the North, which historically felt it got the bad slice of the pie. The Khanates of Hind and Chien are more concerned with controlling their restive populations, leaving the Mung Khanate to bask in its central position. Sabir was defeated by the 4 western Mithraic nations, which have entered the Scientific-Industrial Revolution full steam (sorry ;) ), leaving the Mithrasland area a backwater technologically. The 4 Khanates no longer even maintain the pretense of unity. The Egyptian part of the former Coptic Empire dominates in sub-saharan Africa, and has begun proslytizing the natives. Australia (again, name?) has been discovered and is being explored.
The world is about 40% Buddhist, 30% Mithraic, 20% Coptic and 10% Orthodox, with a scattering of other Faiths (including, of course, Catholicism).
Catholicism's position is similar to first half 20th Cen Judaism, ranging from "some of my best friends..." down to ghettos and even progroms, depending where you are. Jews are even smaller in number, but are much better off.

[tom]

During the 17th Century, the settlements on New Lydia (S. America) grew into sizable colonies, but the Incas still dominate. The New Phrygian nations are now completely independent of their mother countries, and New Saxonland has grown greatly at the expense of New Thorland. New Leoland has nibbled away at the Aztecs. The long wars of attempted reunification of Mithrasland have succeeded partially, but they have quite a ways to go. The Coptic Empires attempts to reunify have only weakened the daughter empires and redrew a few borders...to the extent that Coptic Egypt lost its subsaharan holdings. Similarly, the Khanate of Sabir's attempts to expand into Europe only allowed the Khanate of Mung (looking ahead for new resources) to overrun it. The first settlements are appearing on Australia. Technology corresponds to Wild West/Victorian England level.

[Dan Guy]

Sorry did not mean to ask for the full descriptive details it can be annoying! ;) There is just simply to many details to an ATL of this kind so pardon me for asking you of such burdens!

[DominusNovus]

looks very good guys, keep up the good work. :)
They'll be good candidates for the ICN.

[tom]

The main map changes occurred in New Lycia with the fall of the Incan Empire, and in Africa with the Consolidation Wars. Like three scorpions in a bottle, the Christians (light Blue), the Mithraists (yellow) and the Buddhists (light brown) warily maneuver and feint with their stingers (boy, I sure hope these colors come through). The atomic superpowers are New Saxonland, The Coptic Empire of Egypt and the Mung Khanate, each at least comparable to 2004 UK in OTL. The black areas are disputed between the Big Three, although New Lycia is dominated by the Mithraists, Africa by the Christians, and Bandibaga (Australia) and the ocean islands by the Buddhists. Proxy and brushfire wars are increasingly common. Technology is equivalent to c1970 OTL.

[Dan Guy]

Good TL so far Tom! I wonder if u could give us a description of world in comparence to ours on social-political level. It would be pretty fascinating to say the least givin that the POD was almost 2ooo years ago. It looks to be a major imperilist world so I wonder if race relations and attiudes are the same as OTL Victorian era.

[tom]

Dan:
Good question. Me, Norman and maybe Tom B will have to think about that.
One comment is that the ancient Mithraists were surprisingly egalitarian...within a mithraeum, a slave could outrank an Emperor.

[Norman]

I think one thing is clear, with a POD of 2000 years ago, our concepts of race (which basically derive from the 1500's) will not exist.

Probably 'race' will be important, but it will defined differently. For example, we can define the traits that define race as language, 'cultural literacy' (meaning that a race shares common literacy), and some additional traits, such as family or clan connection, which means the color of one's skin has nothing to do with race.

Similarly, we could have (in the Khanates) as sort of caste system that spreads out of India. Again, having little to do with our modern concept and more with some other cultural indicatiors.

[Tom_B]

Obviously no Prohibition, no war on drugs, no STD's and the sexual revolution occurs early and just gets wilder and wilder

NOT

Sorry but I couldn't resist the opportunity for some well needed sarcasm.

Norman-- I must differ a bit on the issue of race. I think the notion of white race, black race, yellow race, red race is inevitable at some point. But the Mithraist culture overall would be less concerned about heredity than OTL European culture. Mithraism would emphasize personal merit, ethical behavior, spiritual knowledge, courage. Who your Daddy was is much less important. As I remarked before some sort of inheritance of governace would be accepted grudgingly by the Mithraists with its origin in traditions of the absorbed cultures and not Mithraism itself. As time goes on there is probably some philosophers who will make a big deal out of the significance of people's skin complexions but they would by the exception not the rule. One other thing to note is the Mithraists do not have the Old Testament in their canon and the OT does place a big emphasis on blood lines and chosen people and can be (and was OTL) misinterpreted as a justification for racism.

However the Mithraists are not perfect. They have an Achilles Heel and that is women. I speculate that an early emergence of something akin to feminism is highly likely as women demand admittance to the Inner Mysteries.

Another Achilles Heel is the Age of Aquarius. Mithraism started at the beginning of the Age of Pisces and its theology is astronomically based. The approach of the Age of Aquarius will cause all manner of agitation.

Tom B

[Straha]

dammit tom you beat me to saying it

[Norman]

TomB
I am basing my idea on an article I read in the Scientific American (about a year ago) which tried to establish this thing we call 'race'. I derived two basic understandings, first, human beings being what we are, like to divide the world into 'us and them'. It's just that the measure used in the past to make the division are not always the same ones we use now. In short, the color of one's skin, just wasn't as central in defining race in the past as it is today. I do not mean to say that it didn't exist, only that it wasn't as central.

Examples of this can be seen all over the place, even today. India's caste system certainly approaches an us vs. them sort of thinking that is (by now) not based on an individual's skin color, but on some other less easilly defined measure. In Japan, the Ethnic Japanese were and probably are prejudiced against the Koreans who have lived among them for years, even though to Europeans there is little difference between the two.

I am suggesting that in a Mithraic worldview, skin color wouldn't be seen as central to the concept of what makes up a race.

Second, I like the idea of the sexual divide proving to be an issue. In a more developed world you need to use every mind you can get to keep the complex thing going. At some point you are going to have the society fracture as the previously parallel belief systems (Mithra for men , Isis for Women) begin to move into the others 'traditional areas of influence'.

For example, at some point the field medicine of Mithra, with its early understanding of infection, will conflict with the birthing knowledge of the Isis cults.

[tom]

March 2, 1802. In OTL Mardi Gras is being celebrated. In Mithras, a very different event in happening.
In the African state of Damot, a civil war is raging between forces allied with the Christians and forces allied with the Mithraists. One of the sides (does it really matter which?) uses one of the newly developed Fuel-Air bombs in battle for the first time - without authorization from its sponsor. The enemy misinterprets this as a tactical nuke and uses one of its own - it was ONLY to use them in retaliation or for special demolitions, but...
March 3. OTL calls it Ash Wednesday, one of many. In Mithras, two centuries hence, the Christians will call it Noah's Fire. The Mithraists will call it the Rain of a Thousand Suns. The Buddhists will call it the Day of the Blood Mushrooms (or Umbrellas, depending on location). The survivors will call it things less printable. It will take generations to rebuild the world...

[tom]

New Phrygia weathered the War best (or rather, least badly), being the site of the strongest Power Bloc and partially protected by distance. In New Lycia, the former Incan nations banded together in a Confederation, as did the mixed Native/Mithraic coastal nations. In Africa and Europe, harder hit by the War, the opposite occurred, as territories banded together (temporarily) against any that got too strong, so the region stayed petty warlords. The Egyptian Empire was virtually destroyed and divided up by the Turkic and Saharan Coptic Empires. Similarly, the Mung Khanate was all but destroyed and divided between the Chien and Hind Khanates. The Hind Khanate took over much of Slavland and even eastern Europe, but is having trouble controlling the restive populations.
New Saxonland was the only major developed nation to retain a large infrastructure, although it was seriously damaged. It had a promise of becoming the world's leading technology powerhouse, but a pronounced anti-technological backlash occurred there, and practically all research was halted. This spread to New Thorland annd New Leoland, the only remotely close competitors. At the end of the 19th Century, non-military research is resuming, spurred by resource shortages (especially petroleum), but it takes awhile to raise up a new generation of researchers, and it will be decades after the "Lost Lifetime" in science annd technology before things really get rolling full speed. Science annd technology are still at 20th Century levels.

[tom]

THE KIAWA TAUROCTONY
Located near OTL Mt. Rushmore. A major national effort by the three Mithraic New Phrygian nations during the Hot Peace. The scorpion alone is the size of an OTL 18-wheeler. Details down to the scales on the snake and the dog's fur are lovingly carved. The largest tauroctony in the world by far.

THE LUNDIN CRATER
The only thermonuclear ground burst during the War (most were low air bursts). It is speculated that this was a malfunction, as it is located several miles "downrange" of the city's borders. It was still more than enough to obliterate the capital of Saxonland. The fused green glass is surprisingly attractive in the right angle of sunlight. The radiation, after some 200 years, is down low enough to make brief visits safe.

Any other suggestions?

[tom]

The Mithras List on Yahoo Groups might be interesting:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mithras/?yguid=5428731

[Norman]

As the world began to dig itself out of the wreckage of the nuclear war, some individuals began to stand forth as important, both positively and negatively.

Paedrik Robbison, is a core figure that rose up in New Phyrigia. Leader of a Mithraic sect that held itself out to be purer than most, after the war had struck down Saxonland, declared that the 'Nuclear fires were Mithra's punishment of man for challanging the gods.'

Although initially made fun off by others, he developed a solid base of supporters that over the next 50 years came to dominate the religious and educational centers of the Continent. Central to their belief was that man should not aspire to emulate the gods, but to obey the gods. As a result of this fundamentalist movement, the Mithra / Thor and Isis / Freya adherants began to institute somewhat bizarre practices as central to the mysteries of their beliefs.

Soon universities, as a central tenet of their survival, began to focus most of their resources on courses dealing with religion and doctrine. Only members of the small Jewish and Christian sects, were allowed to continue their studies of nature unrestricted.

[Tom_B]

My guess is any After the Bomb phase of cilization will experience multiple craziness. I think Chrisitanity which is overwhelming exoteric would be more likely than the still predominantly esoteric Mithraists to become fundamentalist--with apocalyptic ovetones--the Christians might even develop <shudder> dispensationalism and blather endlessly about the Rapture. Mithraism could get ugly but in somewhat different way such as:

1] If women recently got admitted to the Inner Mysteries there would be a nasty antifeminist backlash

2] The war might be blamed on a material science that deviated from itsHermetic origins and so science might be restricted to Initiates and would be in a gobbedlygook Hermetic form.

3] Public revealation of the Mysteries would be blamed for the catastrophe--gruesome forms of executions which were phased out before the war would make a comeback.

4] Mithraism would like become more ascetic.

5] The approach of the Age of Aquarius would be tied into this and inspire all manner of Prophets of the New Age and maybe predictions of a Return of Mithras.

It should be noted that the Buddhists would not be immune to the craziness. Expect prophecies about the Maitreya Buddha's immanent appearance.

[tom]

Norman & Tom B:
EXCELLENT! This helps explain the Lost Lifetime and to slow things down significantly even after it is over (the Interplanar Alliance background requires the timeline technology to be a few years ahead of OTL at the most). I figure the 20th Century will have increasing resource problems, especially petroleum...remember, they used some up in the first Industrial Revolution, just like we did, then used up more in the Recovery, so their problems will be bigger than OTL's. Resource extraction and usage may be a couple decades ahead of OTL, much more efficient, since this is likely the main priority when technology starts moving again. This may be a good bargaining chip with the IA.

[MerryPrankster]

"Paedrik Robbison, is a core figure that rose up in New Phyrigia. Leader of a Mithraic sect that held itself out to be purer than most, after the war had struck down Saxonland, declared that the 'Nuclear fires were Mithra's punishment of man for challanging the gods.'"

Getting in a little bit of political commentary, eh?

[Norman]

"Paedrik Robbison, is a core figure that rose up in New Phyrigia. Leader of a Mithraic sect that held itself out to be purer than most, after the war had struck down Saxonland, declared that the 'Nuclear fires were Mithra's punishment of man for challanging the gods.'"

Getting in a little bit of political commentary, eh?

As the old song goes, "It's that time of the season."

[Norman]

Official Memo:

To: Commander of Black Sea Garrison
From: Central Hind Command

This memo is to athorize you to take all necessary and reasonable measures to safeguard the persons of citizens of Hind in all aspects of their living. The latest stories related to terrorist bombings by these 'Byzantine Christians' who live in your district have enflamed our people, and, more importantly, gained the attention of the Assemble.

[tom]

The Peace of the Unburied Dead has ended with the passing of the generations which saw the War and its immediate Aftermath. CBN weapons of Mass Destruction have finally been reinvented. The Pact of The Eleven (Leoland, Gothland, reunited New Mithrasland, Thorland, New Leoland, New Thorland, New Saxonland, the Hind Khanate, the Chien Khanate, the Saharan Coptic Empire and the Turkic Coptic Empire) have consolidated their nukes and have one simple rule: Any nation, even a member state, which uses chemical, biological, nuclear or (revised) nanotechnological weapons of mass destruction, no matter the reason, is to be destroyed. No exceptions.
Conventional wars have occurred in the New World, between the Native and Mithraic nations, caused by a native movement for more power and territory. Native nations lost both. In Europe, New Mithrasland has united once again, and even expanded into Hind territory. The Coptic empires have expanded south, stopping the Disintegration and leading to consolidations (both peacefully and not) among the states of Africa. They have made treaties of mutual defense among themselves, and expansion south has stopped. Europe has finally seen the wisdom of unity and has recreated the old Europe (with some twiddled borders. Orthodox Christians have no homeland now, and get little or no help from the Coptics, who consider them heretics and counterfeit Christians and thus worse than Buddhists and Mithraists.
POPULATION:
1.9 Billion Buddhists
1.3 Billion Mithraists
0.9 Billion Coptics
0.7 Billion agnostics
0.3 Billion atheists
0.2 Billion Orthodox
0.2 Billion Catholics, Jews, other minor religions.
Technology is a little more advanced than OTL 2004. Physics lags, but Chemistry is much more advanced, with passive nanotechnology common, and experimental active nanotechnology being developed in labs (the going is slower with these prototypes than originally expected). Manned space flight is limited to a few scientific moonbases (like our Antarctica), one big Mars expedition in the early history of the Pact of Eleven, and routine orbital work, but unmanned probes have thouroughly investigated almost every solar system object with a radius much greater than 100 miles of so, and quite a few comets and smaller asteroids. Genetic engineering is being cautiously used to help repair the effects of the War.

[tom]

Thanks for all the help, Norman.
Even After the Mushrooms Go Up, nukes will be reinvented eventually unless Civilization Collapses totally and never revives. It is just too tempting, and there are too many potential seekers. Nobody can be SURE someone else is not doing it, so everybody has an incentive to do it themselves. My Pact of Eleven is probably the best way to ensure long term no-use.
IA peole: If this is too advanced at time of discovery, just tone it down a skooch.

[Diamond]

Damn, you guys did an awesome job. One of the most unique worlds I've ever seen. Nice.

[DominusNovus]

Thanks for all the help, Norman.
Even After the Mushrooms Go Up, nukes will be reinvented eventually unless Civilization Collapses totally and never revives. It is just too tempting, and there are too many potential seekers. Nobody can be SURE someone else is not doing it, so everybody has an incentive to do it themselves. My Pact of Eleven is probably the best way to ensure long term no-use.
IA peole: If this is too advanced at time of discovery, just tone it down a skooch.
Looks very good (cromwell is the only plane that even comes close to this in detail). As for technology, looks fine for the ICN, but I'd just like to clarify what the nanotechnology of this plane is capable of.

[tom]

THE FOREST OF SOULS
Located on the Mediterranean coast at the border between the two Coptic Empires, this monument to the 400 million who died in 1802 is the size of a large city. Each mansized pillar is filigreed in a unique pattern of copper, gold and bronze represents one of the casualties, and is coated in a diamondoid veneeer one thousanth of a fingerspan thick.

THE THOUSAND MANREACH TOWER
1,000 manreaches high (about 7500 feet) this tower was built on the site of the signing of the Pact of Eleven in rebuilt Rome, made an International City. The Pope has returned from his centuries long Eerland Exile, and is headquartered here with the Mithraic Father of Fathers. The tower has become a de facto United Nations building as well, and also has major "embassies" of the other major religions. At night, its multi-megawatt sulfur light can be seen for over 100 miles.

[tom]

G. Bone:
Think 3D phased array optics, voice input and language translation by computers, pocket libraries (with Library of Congress, 100,000 songs, 10,000 movies and all TV series episodes), and other such levels of technology (about 2020 at Moore's Law rate).

[Norman]

Some Mithraic festivals and Holidays:

Winter Soltice - Holiday of Mithra's Birth Begins Four days before and extends seven days afterwards. In Europe and New Phygia it is celebrated by lighting candles and placing green boughs around the house. (OTL Dec 21 through December 31st.

The Easterling: Festival of the arrival of spring, celebrated with eggs and fresh lamb.

The Hightide: The Summer soltice. Fire works and bonfires.

The Darkening: One week after the Autumnal Equinox. Celebrations and thanksgiving during the day, dark tales at night.

[Tom_B]

I always thought it was December 25. Supposedly Chrisitianity borrowed it. It is possible that in a TL where the two remain very long term competitors Chrisitianity might move Christmas to another day.

[G.Bone]

G. Bone:
Think 3D phased array optics, voice input and language translation by computers, pocket libraries (with Library of Congress, 100,000 songs, 10,000 movies and all TV series episodes), and other such levels of technology (about 2020 at Moore's Law rate).

excuse me...but i never posted a question to you....

[DominusNovus]

excuse me...but i never posted a question to you....
I think he meant to reply that to me.

[tom]

DominusNovus:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
Never put on a sizable posting during a 15 minute work break on the job!
You're right, of course.
Here's a few more Mithran nanotech toys:
Books, magazines and newspapers...with full color moving pictures, like Harry Potter.
OTL PC equivalents that you wear like glasses + hearing aids.
Magic dust (a forerunner of Hall's proposed utility fog)...but they're having problems getting out of beta testing.
And BTW, I appologize for my Western bias...with 100 million members, Hinduism has as many as the other "minor" religions put together.

[tom]

Norman:
Is there a holiday for the Bull Slaying?
I look forward to your examples of Mithras television! Remember, even the "backwaters" have the equivalent of digital HDTV, most have 3D phased array optics and the top of the line is Virtual Reality.

[Norman]

Because this is a central tenet of the faith, there is, but it is part of the on-going public rituals of the faith. Two rituals have evolved over the years, a symbolic ritual in which a Mithraic father slays the symbol of the bull, and more formal full rituals (on the new moon), in which young initiates have their faith tested through chanllanging an actual bull.

The symbolic ritual is usually performed at dawn or dusk, dawn to represent Mithra's daily victory and return of the light, and dusk to represent faith in Mithra through the dark night. Wine is used as the symbol of the bull's blood, and, since this is an open ritual attended by male and female, young and old, there are stories, usually exaggerated and told by Buddhists, about how these ceremonies get out of hand.

(Truth to be told, these stories are sometimes spread by Mithraic missionaries).

The High Ceremony, involving young initiates testing their faith, is performed at the time of the New moon and is linked to the mysteries. Originally a secret rite, a more public ceremony has developed over the centuries, and the ceremonies are widely attended, and sometimes even televized.

It is considered particularly auspicious is the night is clear and the constellations easily seen. Again, it represents the victory of Mithra over the primal dark.

Although there is much ceremony, the central rite involvesThe initiates, generally well prepared, face the bull's fury, one at a time, approaching the bull as closely as possible, some even touching the bull. Although deaths occur, initiates are well trained, so the deaths are rare. Scars obtained and borne during these ceremonies are worn as badges by some of the more militant members of the faithful.

[tom]

(Truth to be told, these stories are sometimes spread by Mithraic missionaries).

LOL!
Since Astrology is so important in this religion, Norman, how did the Mithraists react to
1) Supernovae and close up novae and
2) Discovery of asteroids, Uranus, Neptune, moons, etc.?

BTW, 1971 would be a good discovery date. Since Mithras had recovered its 1802 technology by 1900 and was starting to move again, even a slow rate of progress could give it something a decade or two beyond present day OTL.

[tom]

THE NAPPON BRIDGES
Connect Chien to Kurasako (Sakhalin), Nappon's "fifth island" and then the other main islands of Nappon. Over most of their length one cannot see either terminus, and it is difficult to see across the bridge from one side.

DAM OF HERCULES
Blocks off the Mediterranean Sea at the Pillars of Hercules. The sea is lowered by several manreaches and this allows the hydroelectric plant there to be the largest single power source in the world.

[Norman]

The New Phrygian Glaciers.

After the Great War, the combination of dust from the explosions, combined with already high levels of water from the earlier global warming, resulted in large and significant snowfalls in Northern New Phrygia. Within a generation a unique phenomena was noted, Glaciers moving south.

Fortunately, the climate soon moderated, but signiifcant glaciation existed along the Northern Mountains of the Continent, with the snow fall and meltage almost exactly countering eachother. Melting waters would cascade off the glaciers, and on sunny days, the rainbows were quite remarkable.

For many years tourist groups were allowed to approach the glaciers, but the unfortunately glacial collapse of 1910 ended the practice.

[Tom_B]

(Truth to be told, these stories are sometimes spread by Mithraic missionaries).

LOL!
Since Astrology is so important in this religion, Norman, how did the Mithraists react to
1) Supernovae and close up novae and
2) Discovery of asteroids, Uranus, Neptune, moons, etc.?

BTW, 1971 would be a good discovery date. Since Mithras had recovered its 1802 technology by 1900 and was starting to move again, even a slow rate of progress could give it something a decade or two beyond present day OTL.

The Mithraists probably have a notion common to some of the Gnostics of the soul progressing through seven celestial spheres--Moon, Venus, Mercury, Sun, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn before reaching the True Spiritual World in the realm of the fixed stars. The sevenfold levels of the initiates may have some correspondence. The discovery of other planets upsets this schema. However modern astrologists have adjusted to this and after some period of squabbling the Mithraists adjust. One possibility is two levels are added over Father.

[tom]

The Interplanar Alliance wants short paragraph descriptions of the governments of each of the major nations. This is an area I am really squishy in. I figured the Mithraic ones might be meritocracies, the Coptic ones something like the UK and who knows what the Khanates might be like by now, or the "native" nations in the New World and Oceania. Here is a chance for someone to put some more input into this world. Here is my latest map and key:
The light brown in northeast North America is New Thorland.
The brown of most of North America is New Saxonland.
The dark brown to the south is New Leoland.
The maroon in south Mexico is Tenokauatl.
The light yellow of western South America is The Dominion of the Incan People.
The Green of eastern South America is the New Lycian Federation.
The dark green of the north Atlantic is Eerland (Ireland), New Eerland (Iceland)
and Iceland (Greenland).
The yellow of Scandinavia is Thorland.
The light purple of England is Saxonland
The red of Iberia is Leoland.
The dark purple of Europe is New Mithrasland
(even the natives call it that now).
The pine green of Italy is Gothland.
The light gray of northwest Africa is the Saharan Coptic Empire.
The gray of Asia Minor and northeast Africa is the Turkic Coptic Empire.
The white of the Arabian peninsula is the Arabic Coptic Empire.
The blue of western Asia is the Hind Khanate.
The light Blue of East Asia is the Chien Khanate.
The purple of australia is Bandibaga.
The black of south Africa are various "Third World" nations.

[Norman]

Let me suggest that we have a caste based type assemblage. Citizens are born into different castes, and each of the castes has representatives to in what is know as the assemble of the People.

The castes are based (in theory) on one's progress to enlightenment.

[tom]

Norman:
Maybe based on some earlier version of Indian government? Remember, the Buddhist Mongols have converted most of the country in their centuries of rule...only 100 million Hindus now out of what may be over a billion citizens. Or does Buddhism use castes too? If so, that might be good for Chien, too.

[Norman]

Chien is a bit different, I'm thinking that there is essentially a schism between the buddhism practiced in the Khanates. The Chein would probably be more autocratic and mercantile. How about a mercantilistic Oligarchy? Similar to Castes, these ruling families involve themselves in complicated political maneuvering behind the Khanate Golden throne.

[tom]

How about the Coptics? Each probably has a similar government, derived from the original (each thinks of itself as the "true" Coptic Empire). And any ideas on the Native or Mithraic nations?

[Norman]

Inherited Theocracy. The Coptic Spiritual Leader traces his ancestry back to the Queen of Sheba and Solomon (as did the Ethiopian Emperor). In addition, Coptic Dogma holds that Jesus and Mary Magdelen had a son, called James, who married the descendant of Solomon and Sheba, thereby fully bridging the old and the new.

This man is part of a ruling clan that selects the next Leader from members of this clan.

[Tom_B]

Norman:
Maybe based on some earlier version of Indian government? Remember, the Buddhist Mongols have converted most of the country in their centuries of rule...only 100 million Hindus now out of what may be over a billion citizens. Or does Buddhism use castes too? If so, that might be good for Chien, too.

Buddhism clearly rejected the caste system.

[Norman]

Sure - but remember that in india even the muslims have castes If we see militant buddhism as a cultural overlay, we get buddhism with castes

[Tom_B]

How about the Coptics? Each probably has a similar government, derived from the original (each thinks of itself as the "true" Coptic Empire). And any ideas on the Native or Mithraic nations?

I am thinking that Mithraism is likely to evolve two institutions. One is a formal council of senior officers that have a say in policy. Part modern military junta but part Knights of the Round Table in its better manifestation. Another is is the Mithraists assigns kings and nobles and "adviser" who is selected by the Fathers (and would not be a Father in most instances). This person would be a considerable influence on sovereigns, who discover that those that completely disregard their "adviser" end up deposed sometimes slain.

[Tom_B]

Sure - but remember that in india even the muslims have castes If we see militant buddhism as a cultural overlay, we get buddhism with castes

Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Mohammed proably knew very little if anything about Hinduisim. His followers later expand into Hindu lands. They hate many things about Hinduism--its apparent polytheism, reincarnation, Vedantic impersonalism, etc. Way down their list of theological concerns is the caste system and they might be convinced that as a purely social political structure it could be permitted in a modified form.

Buddhism started in India and was among other things a strong reaction to the highly Brahmanical form of Hinduism practiced then. In reaction to Buddhism, Hinduism later went through its own sort of Counter Reformation. So a rejection of caste is more central to Buddhism than Islam due to the nature of their very different origins.

[Norman]

Tom B

I recall reading somewhere that in India the muslims have adopted some features of the caste system. (to me this is an example of a cultural overlay, you lay a new cultural factor on top of an existing one, the old one pops up through the new one. In this case, the old Hindu system pops into and is adopted by the new Muslim system)

Thus, a POD that constructs a militant Buddhism, may end up having many of the precepts of the religion overlaid on top of the previous cultural characteristics, (in this case the caste system.)

[tom]

New Mithrasland is the re-creation of what had been one of history's mightiest empires under its great leaders, centuries ago. The eastern fragments had long dreamed of reuniting the nation, and had finally succeeded. What kind of government would this imply? Leoland was formed from a military alliance, I suppose this would make a confederation the most likely government for it to have. New Leoland might take this tradition with them. Saxonland, Gothland and Thorland grew from the Germanic realms corresponding to those in OTL early dark ages, perhaps a constitutional monarchy now? And their New World offspring might be forced into something like our American government, for similar reasons, since they would likely be composed of similar immigrants. The Incan Empire once ruled most of New Lycia and then fell, but its former subject people retained much cultural cohesion and eventually joined up into a native nation to resist the Western tide, this might also imply a confederation. Tenokauatl descends from the Aztecs' analog...I figure something like OTL Japan would be a good version of their government, with the emperor as a figurehead after losing several wars over their rather militant society. Do these sound like I am on the right track with my thinking?

[tom]

If I didn't blow my calculations, here are the populations of the major nations:
New Thorland 35 million
New Saxonland 300 million
New Leoland 265 million
Tenokauatl 115 million
Dominion of the Incan People 275 million
New Lycian Federation 235 million
subsaharan Africa 320 million
Saharan Coptic Empire 60 million
Turkic Coptic Empire 350 million
Arabic Coptic Empire 65 million
Leoland 60 million
Mithrasland 230 million
Gothland 75 million
Thorland 30 million
Hind Khanate 1500 million
Chien Khanate 1700 million
There are also some minor nations like Eerland and Bandibaga.

[Norman]

I like your plans for the 'aztec' Tenokauatl, it makes sense to me. I also agree that the Northern continent would be governed as a republic, or even (dare I say) and electronic democracy, with key public votes on what the "sense of the people" is on a regular basis through an internet analog.

[tom]

I will give the people a day or two more to post thoughts while I mull it some, then post my guesses for the governments and give you a chance to reply. If they pass muster, I'll email them to the IA maillist and they will be "official".

[tom]

Just looked at how my map posted.
I HATE how the colors collapse together here!

[Norman]

Just looked at how my map posted.
I HATE how the colors collapse together here!

Don't beat your self up, this is a great timelline.

[tom]

Thorland
An elaboration of the system the Norse followed
OTL, with Kings and Things and Althing, expanded and
streamlined with modern technology. Probably
the highest level of personal freedom in Mithras.

Eerland
Monastically ruled as a theocracy by the Catholic
Church (the Holy See was located here for centuries),
rather like Tibet was at one time. Population is
nearly all Catholic, and the Abbots and Bishops
run the State as well as the Church.

Leoland
Once a military alliance, this nation has evolved
into a representational republic with similarities
to the United States of America. The Firstman's terms
cannot be consecutive and run for five years.
The Hand of the Law has five Judges. The Council
is bicameral by population or not, like Congress.

New Mithrasland
An empire imposed over peoples who, in the western part,
do not necessarily like being part of the empire, sort of
like the old Soviet Union. A military junta of Mithraists
selects major leaders and the King, as well as his cabinet.
Going against the junta generally leads to the demise
of the offender.

Gothland
Similar to New Mithrasland, but here the Council
of Ten Fathers is choosen for Mithraic rather than
military expertise. The fact that virtually the
entire population is Mithraic also further amplifies
the power and authority of the Council.

Saharan Coptic Empire
Turkic Coptic Empire
Arabic Coptic Empire
All three have essentially the same form of government,
dating back centuries to the time of the Coptic Breaking.
A ruling clan, which claims descent from Solomon and
the Queen of Sheba through Jesus and Mary Magdelen chooses
the leaders of the Empire and Provinces from among themselves.

subsaharan Africa
Similar to OTL, except there are even more nations
and the upper elite have access to a little better technology.
Most of the nations are autocratic dystopias, where the
vast majority of people lead lives scarcely better than
their counterparts in OTL.

Hind Khanate
An Assembly of Representatives are choosen, three from each
Caste that a person is born into. This was originally based
supposedly on degree of enlightenment before rebirth, now
it is based on vocation of family or ancestry. The Buddhists
tried to eliminate this feature of Hindu culture, but this
was not a priority and it still lingers. The Foreman of the
Assembly is chosen annually. He can be choosen more than
once but is not supposed to. A judicial tribunal interprets
the law which the Assembly passes and the foreman enforces.

Chien Khanate
A highly bureaucratic mercantile oligarchy runs this country
behind the Golden Throne in a system resembling an exaggeration
of the Imperial Chinese system. Governance is quite complicated,
and connections are imperative to get anything you want done.

Bandibaga
An aboriginal "nation" resembling a giant American Indian
Reservation, run by the Chien Khanate. The standards of living
are fairly decent here though, since the Khanate sincerely
wants to do right by its subjects.

New Saxonland
Electronic Democracy. Supervisor elected by popular vote.
Serves for a six year term, cannot serve again.
Unicameral Assembly by population. Seven man National Court.
Issues are decided by simple majority, with some
constitutional protection of minorities. Votes are
taken over the Clique of Cliques (internet analog).

New Leoland
Electronic Democracy. Manager elected by popular vote.
Bicameral Assembly based on residence, and "position"
or vocation. Issues are decided by simple majority,
with constitutional safeguards more extensive than
New Saxonland's. Ten man National Court, manager
can break ties. Votes are taken over the
Knowledge Quilt (competing internet analog).

New Thorland
Virtually the same as Thorland's government.

Tenokauatl
After losing a series of wars to New Leoland, Tenokauatl
has decided to take the best of its Aztec culture and
the Mithraic one of New Leoland and be better than both.
The emperor is a beloved figurehead who unites and inspires
the people. It is similar to OTL postwar Japan with a First
Chief on the Council of Chiefs who governs the country.

Dominion of the Incan Peoples
New Lycian Federation
Although these had very different origins, they evolved very
similar governments. The Dominion formed from the fragments
of the old Incan Empire, the Federation from a number of
colonies established by adventurous Mithraists who wished
to form their own systems of government. The different tribes
and the small Lycian nations each joined as mutual defense
leagues and developed into Confederacies. They are sometimes
listed in references as their separate component parts, and
have fairly free hand in internal government.

[DominusNovus]

Looks very good. That should be info enough for the ICN.

[tom]

I showed Dr. Dayem, my psychiatrist, the web page with "Dayem the Great". He was so tickled he printed a copy for his 13 year old daughter!

[tom]

National Holidays:
New Saxonland Jan 21
New Leoland Apr 5
New Thorland Mar 18
Tenokauatl Nov 12
Dominion of Incan Peoples Aug 26
New Lycian Federation May 2
Saharan Coptic Empire Sep 29 (formerly Jun 17)
Arabic Coptic Empire Dec 11 (formerly Jun 17)
Turkic Coptic Empire Nov 8 (formerly Jun 17)
note: Jun 17 was national holiday of the original Coptic Empire
Leoland Feb 3
Gothland May 3
New Mithrasland Dec 25
Thorland Apr 23
Hind Khanate Jun 7
Chien Khanate Aug 1
Eerland Easter
If anyone has a good reason to change this, that is OK.

[DominusNovus]

Just put Mithras up on the ICN group.

[tom]

How do we access these descriptions again?

[Diamond]

The ICN:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/interplanar_confederation

Go to Files (on the left hand menu)

Go to Planes of the ICN

[G.Bone]

The ICN:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/interplanar_confederation

Go to Files (on the left hand menu)

Go to Planes of the ICN

errr...you forgot to tell them they have to join yahoo groups...

[Norman]

How does the Interplanar group work? I've been out and signed up.

[DominusNovus]

How does the Interplanar group work? I've been out and signed up.
I don't want to hijack the thread, but basicly, just submit a plane/world, if it meets the requirements, its discovered and nations on that plane can join. So, just think of an ATL that you'd like to see and submit it.

[tom]

I'm not crazy about the maps, they look kinda grainy.
BTW, how would the Catholic Church develop in this TL? I bet it would be a lot less arrogant!

[Tom_B]

I'm not crazy about the maps, they look kinda grainy.
BTW, how would the Catholic Church develop in this TL? I bet it would be a lot less arrogant!

Small Christian sects can be very arrogant.

I think the RC Church would be very defensive. It would be actively involved in a propaganda war against the Mithraists (revealing distorted exposes of the inner secrets), Buddhism and the Copts. They may conduct talks on reconciliation with other schisms though. But I see those breaking down despite some people trying their best.

As I also mentioned previously they would be on the prowl for enything sounding Hermetic as being a Mithraic contamination.

[Norman]

Well they wouldn't really be the Catholic Church we know, probably a bit more decentralized, and more 'parish' oriented.

There is a chance that they would be highly oriented to the bible, both old and new testements, and might have some unusual cultural mechanisms for idetifying themselves as Christians within the larger societies.

Maybe dress and dietary restrictions would also be present.

[tom]

What would be the cultural effects a couple centuries after a nuclear war of the scale depicted here?

[Norman]

I think there are two possibilities.

First, the more obvious, we survived, therefore we are (favored, have a special mission, etc, etc). While the mainstream religious teaching wouldn't pick this up, a lot of the cultish groups would. There would be a lot of potential conflict here, as each favored group contended with each other. Some nations, rather than contend with the sort of national bickering that can result, might have declared either state religions, or some variation of seperation of church and state.

Second, slightly less obvious. Survivor's guilt based religions. We survived, there fore we did something wrong, or we were unfaithful and are being tested by god.

These reacition would be most immediately noticed in the religious teachings of various groups, but would permeate the general culture too. The literature coming out of the period would probably have some strong survival message.

[tom]

Norman:
Good ideas. BTW, my Cuban Missile War America has a lot of the first "we are favored" ideology.

[Norman]

Tom, also consider that, similar to OTL Mormanism, there would be strong cultural belief associated with

1) food storage, Those that survive the bombing will )at least in part) have had better access to food.

2) many small communities. There would be no large urban areas to avoid establishing targets.

3) Lot's of OTL survivalist tendencies.

4) Probably a cultural emphasis on cooperation and courtesy, those that survive (even in the countries largely untouched) would heve done so on a community level.

[tom]

A Morman author wrote a post holocaust nove where Mormanism dominates, and Leigh Brackett (IIRC)(sp?) wrote one where large cities are forbidden by constitutional amendment.

[Norman]

I think that, particularly in the hard hit areas, the cultural values would be largely based on the experiences of the survivors.

Medical knowledge would also be very important, and the people would be relatively well trained in it.

[Norman]

Let me ask a question here, having gone out to see the interplanary confederation (and actually joining), it looks as if we are trying to 'flesh out' a present day world based on a recognizable POD.

In many respects, you are going toward the development of an Almanac of Mithras world.

Given this world as you have described it, what would the major sporting events be.

For example, I suspect that horse racing would exist in most worlds with a domesticated horse.

What about team sports??

[tom]

Mithras has some games similar to OTL. It also has Amerindian games like Ollamalitzli (Aztec basketball), but without the beheading the losing captain part, or the MVP getting all the clothing off the spectators backs. So a basketball fan would be confused by a vertical hoop, and probably befuddled by the rules. On the other hand, a Mithran fan of the game analogous to our field hockey would find ice hockey ridiculous. The most popular game is one based on the Amerindian game of baggataway, almost identical to OTL lacrosse
I am completely out of my depth in team sports, so is anyone else willing to research our team sport history and come up with games and rules, please be my guest!

[Tom_B]

Given Mithraic respect for the miltiary something quaimilitary --a distant cousin of rugby seems likely. I would resist suggestions that they would be avid fans of bull fighitng.

[tom]

Good point, Tom B...bull fighting might be too sacred for it to be a popular sport.
Versions of rugby approaching small war games go back centuries (baggataway was derived from similar scale Amerindian games, according to my research), so there could be team sports with teams of dozens, scores or even hundreds of players.

[Norman]

Given Mithraic respect for the miltiary something quaimilitary --a distant cousin of rugby seems likely. I would resist suggestions that they would be avid fans of bull fighitng.

I was actually thinking at one point that 'bull fighting' would be a 'sacred sport', part of those mysteries observed by a lot of people.

Sure, it would look profane, but the 'underlying' symbolism would be religious. (Keep them cards and checks coming believers so that we can continue our bull fighting ministries to the godless.)

[tom]

One thing I like about Mithras...the teams are province teams, not city teams. So California would have one team, not San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles. Anaheim, and Oakland. On the other hand, Alaska, Montana and Rhode Island would have teams.

[Norman]

One thing I like about Mithras...the teams are province teams, not city teams. So California would have one team, not San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles. Anaheim, and Oakland. On the other hand, Alaska, Montana and Rhode Island would have teams.


No Chicago BUlls, or would it be too profane?

[tom]

Anyone have a background to come up with what the leading languages would be here?

[Norman]

I am guessing, but with this history I think you would have the following equivilant languages

Indo European
Germanic (German; Norse; Channel [frisian, angle etc]; East Goth and West Goth)
Egyptian / Coptic
Baltic (Lithuaininan and others)
Armenian
Hindu
Chinese
Some turkic

[tom]

Norman:
Wanna try guessing the numbers (remember, there will be other, minor languages)?

[Norman]

Here's a guess, Remember that muchof the lands in the West were not affected by the war. These represent families of languages, so a number of dialects would show as a single language.

For example, Island Chin, represent amalgams of whatever the origianl language was with significant Chin additions and overlays. Many are not mutually understandable.

German
E. Goth 0.5
W. Goth 0.35
Alamanic 0.12
Channel 0.2
Nordland 0.3

Slavic
Nor 0.2
Yuegl 0.23
Vesi 0.2
Hind
Common 0.4
High 0.3
Basic 0.3
Armenian
North 0.08
South 0.06
Turkic 0.12

Chin
Chanin 0.3
Hunin 0.5
Island 0.32

Bantu
South 0.3
North 0.2

Other 0.6

[tom]

I've seen some pretty good flags on this site. Although the POD is Fourth Century, flags would probably develope in this timeline too, for similar reasons to OTL.
Anyone want to take a stab at designing and posting a few?

[tom]

Bumping this up so people can see in detail how the NA 5 nations of SME were developed.

[Landshark]

Saved me the job of looking for it there.

[tom]

From a PM by Norman, here are the military ranks:
"enlisted"
Private: Rafn
Corporal: Uferrafn
Squad Segeant: Tiuhan
Platoon Sergeant: hundtiuhan
First Sergeant: Fimfhundtiuhan
Regimental Sergeant: Thusandtiuhan
Sergeant-Major: Harijitiuhan

"Officers"
Lieutenant: Ufarfath
Captain: Hundfath
Major: Ufar Hundafath
Lt. Colonel: Fimfhundfath
Colonel: Thuhundfath
General: Harjifath
Commanding General: Raiksfath

[Norman]

From a PM by Norman, here are the military ranks:
"enlisted"
Private: Rafn
Corporal: Uferrafn
Squad Segeant: Tiuhan
Platoon Sergeant: hundtiuhan
First Sergeant: Fimfhundtiuhan
Regimental Sergeant: Thusandtiuhan
Sergeant-Major: Harijitiuhan

"Officers"
Lieutenant: Ufarfath
Captain: Hundfath
Major: Ufar Hundafath
Lt. Colonel: Fimfhundfath
Colonel: Thuhundfath
General: Harjifath
Commanding General: Raiksfath

You'll notice that the Captain of the ship is titled Marskipfath, which roughly translates to Sea ship Leader.

[AMBOMB]

Could Mithraism have overshadowed Christianity?
If so, what would the world be like now?
Christianity became the dominant religion of Europe because the Roman emperor Constantine converted to it. If he had converted to Mithraism instead, it's logical to conclude that Mithraism would've become the dominant religion of Europe.

[DominusNovus]

Christianity became the dominant religion of Europe because the Roman emperor Constantine converted to it. If he had converted to Mithraism instead, it's logical to conclude that Mithraism would've become the dominant religion of Europe.
Not quite, I'd think. Mithraism was different to christianity in many respects, that I don't think it would be that simple to simply say that Europe will be whatever religion Constantin picks.

That said, don't you dare try to turn this thread into a debate about jesus, mithras, etc.

[Tom_B]

Not quite, I'd think. Mithraism was different to christianity in many respects, that I don't think it would be that simple to simply say that Europe will be whatever religion Constantin picks.

That said, don't you dare try to turn this thread into a debate about jesus, mithras, etc.

Good Point. Actually something I repeatedly tried to emphasize during this thread (but some people still don't get) is that Mithraism was an esoteric relgion and Christianity is an exoteric trelgion.

[Count Dearborn]

In her book, The Architecture of Desire, the British author, Mary Gentle shows an AH where Christianity and Mithrism had become one religion. The churches had fire pits and Christ was crucificed on the head of a bull.

[Norman]

Good Point. Actually something I repeatedly tried to emphasize during this thread (but some people still don't get) is that Mithraism was an esoteric relgion and Christianity is an exoteric trelgion.

Do you mean a religion based on the practice of certan mysteries v. an 'openly' practiced religion?

Thus Freemasonry could be considered esoteric while the open practice of region not. Hmmm?

[AMBOMB]

Not quite, I'd think. Mithraism was different to christianity in many respects, that I don't think it would be that simple to simply say that Europe will be whatever religion Constantin picks.

That said, don't you dare try to turn this thread into a debate about jesus, mithras, etc.
Originally, Christianity was very much like Mithraism. Both were pagan mystery religions. The story of Mithras and the story of Jesus are both pagan godman myths. Literalist Christianity (practiced by people who think Jesus actually existed) got started later. That aside, if Constantine had picked Mithraism instead of Christianity, Mithraism would've been shown favoritism by the Roman government and so there would've been a lot more Mithraists, which is exactly what happened with Christianity.

[Norman]

Originally, Christianity was very much like Mithraism. Both were pagan mystery religions. The story of Mithras and the story of Jesus are both pagan godman myths. Literalist Christianity (practiced by people who think Jesus actually existed) got started later. That aside, if Constantine had picked Mithraism instead of Christianity, Mithraism would've been shown favoritism by the Roman government and so there would've been a lot more Mithraists.

Any successful adoption of Mithraism is going to demand the basis of the religion be open, as Tom B points out, it will have to change to an exoteric practice, within which certain mysteries are wrapped.

[Leo Caesius]

Mithras was not a "pagan god-man." He was most emphatically a god.

Furthermore, Christianity and Mithraism were not at all alike early on. They may have grown to be more similar over an extended period of time through contact, but even that is debatable. Beck writes, The term "Mithraism" is of course a modern coinage. In antiquity the cult was known as "the mysteries of Mithras"; alternatively, as "the mysteries of the Persians." The latter designation is significant. The Mithraists, who were manifestly not Persians in any ethnic sense, thought of themselves as cultic "Persians." Moreover, whatever moderns might think, the ancient Roman Mithraists themselves were convinced that their cult was founded by none other than Zoroaster, who "dedicated to Mithras, the creator and father of all, a cave in the mountains bordering Persia," an idyllic setting "abounding in flowers and springs of water" (Porphyry, On the Cave of the Nymphs 6).

Persia (or Parthia) in those times was Rome's great rival and frequently at war with her. Nonetheless, there is no indication that this antagonism was ever problematic for the Mithraists socially or politically. Clearly, their cultic "Persian" identity, which they made no attempt to hide, was acceptable to the authorities and their fellow citizens.

The socio-political acceptability of the Mithraists, despite their Perserie, can be explained largely by their social profile. They were the most conformist of men — and men indeed they were in the limited gender sense of the word, a factor which itself would add to their respectability or at least not detract from it (compare the charge against Christianity that it subverted the family by proselytizing the womenfolk). Mithraism drew its initiates disproportionately from the military, from the Empire's petty bureaucracy, and from moderately successful freedmen (i.e. ex-slaves), in fact from the retainer classes, the very people who had a stake in the current sociopolitical dispensation. (On Mithraism's social profile see Clauss 1992, Gordon 1972, Liebeschuetz 1994; Merkelbach 1984: pp. 153-88)

[...]

The scattering of mithraea, thus identified across the Roman Empire, is perhaps more informative about the cult's spread and social composition than are the material remains of any of its peers, early Christianity included. We have already looked at Mithraism's social catchment. As for its spread, though represented virtually everywhere in the Roman empire, it was much stronger in the Latin speaking West than in the (predominantly) Greek-speaking East. It flourished in particular in the city of Rome and its port, Ostia, and along the Rhine-Danube frontier — exactly where one would expect from its social profile. (For maps, see Clauss 1992, province by province).

[...]

In Syria it is the absence of data on any intermediary form of Mithraism that is remarkable (a Chestertonian "dog which did not bark"). With the single exception of the recently discovered Huwarti mithraeum, the few actual mithraea and the monuments lacking known provenance which have been recovered there exemplify either the norms of western Mithraism or minor variations on those norms. The Huwarti mithraeum, moreover, dates to the final decades of the fourth century CE. Accordingly, it speaks of the local redefinition of a religion in its final years, not of "a road not taken" in its formative years. Mithraism in Syria was not a transitional phase intermediate between East and West, but a back-formation from the West in the East.In short, originally Mithraism was popular in all the areas where Christianity was not, socially acceptable where Christianity was not, aimed explicitly at men where Christianity was not, and so on. There really is very little in common between the two.

If you're looking for good literature on Mithraism, here is a decent bibliography (http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Mithraism.html) written by a scholar who is sympathetic to the Mithraic continuity hypothesis (despite the fact that it has fallen out of vogue in the last three decades) but nonetheless manages to keep his scruples unlike some other so-called scholars I could name.

[AMBOMB]

Mithras was not a "pagan god-man."

http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/pagan_christs_mithras.html

[Leo Caesius]

http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/pagan_christs_mithras.htmlAgain, more bullshit. To start with, the idea that the Western Mithras is identical with the Persian Mihr, let along the Vedic Mitra, is no longer accepted by scholarship. Early Christians established the dominance of their religion by exterminating Mithras' faithful, razing His temples, burning His sacred texts. This is an out-and-out lie. To start with, there's absolutely no evidence for this. In fact, the situation is quite the opposite. The archaeological record abounds with evidence for the Mithraic cult where Christianity has left comparatively fewer traces. If the Early Christians established their dominance of their religion in this way, why is it that so much more evidence for Mithraism survives?We do know He was buried in a tomb from which He rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing.Again, total bullshit. We don't "know" this at all. I don't even know where this fellow got this idea.Every year in Rome, in the middle of winter, the Son of God was born one more, putting an end to darkness. Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. Bullshit. Mithras was born from a fricking ROCK. Not a virgin mother, a R O C K.

How can you Pagan Godman people expect to convince anyone (excusing the extremely gullible) if the evidence you use is so obviously falsified? Case in point - that page about Mithra is remarkably fact-free. Whoever wrote it deliberately altered what we knew about Mithraism to make it sound more like Christianity.

[DominusNovus]

Jesus Christ, AMBOMB! I specifically requested that you don't start this shit again and derail another thread. Especially this one! Its one of our most hallowed timelines!

[Tom_B]

Thus Freemasonry could be considered esoteric while the open practice of region not. Hmmm?

There is speculative Freemasonry which definitely could be considered an esoteric relgion. And then there is Craft freemasonry which is largely social (sometimes political).

[Norman]

There is speculative Freemasonry which definitely could be considered an esoteric relgion. And then there is Craft freemasonry which is largely social (sometimes political).

Now wouldn't it be interesting if one of the secrets of Free Masonry was that it represented the remnants of Mithraism??

Come to think of it my Grandfather was a Mason and had statues of bulls all over his house and office, including the mounted head of one which was killed under odd circumstances. Hmmmm!

[Leo Caesius]

Actually, this has been suggested on occasion. James Russell has some articles on it (he's a Freemason and also an expert on pre-Christian Iranian religions).

Like Mithraism, Freemasonry came to be popular in the Near East, imported from the West. It's particularly big in Syria and Lebanon; Hafez al-Asad was a Mason. Interestingly, his lodge is an annex of the Grand Lodge of New York.

[Norman]

Actually, this has been suggested on occasion. James Russell has some articles on it (he's a Freemason and also an expert on pre-Christian Iranian religions).

Like Mithraism, Freemasonry came to be popular in the Near East, imported from the West. It's particularly big in Syria and Lebanon; Hafez al-Asad was a Mason. Interestingly, his lodge is an annex of the Grand Lodge of New York.

You do know that there would be a very cool conspiracy book in this set of facts - if you could get it published.

[AMBOMB]

fricking
I hate that word.
Again, more bullshit. To start with, the idea that the Western Mithras is identical with the Persian Mihr, let along the Vedic Mitra, is no longer accepted by scholarship. This is an out-and-out lie. To start with, there's absolutely no evidence for this. In fact, the situation is quite the opposite. The archaeological record abounds with evidence for the Mithraic cult where Christianity has left comparatively fewer traces. If the Early Christians established their dominance of their religion in this way, why is it that so much more evidence for Mithraism survives?Again, total bullshit. We don't "know" this at all. I don't even know where this fellow got this idea.Bullshit. Mithras was born from a fricking ROCK. Not a virgin mother, a R O C K.

How can you Pagan Godman people expect to convince anyone (excusing the extremely gullible) if the evidence you use is so obviously falsified? Case in point - that page about Mithra is remarkably fact-free. Whoever wrote it deliberately altered what we knew about Mithraism to make it sound more like Christianity.

To be honest, Leo, I find the person/people who made that website more credible than I find you.

[AMBOMB]

Jesus Christ, AMBOMB! I specifically requested that you don't start this shit again and derail another thread. Especially this one! Its one of our most hallowed timelines!
When I'm contradicted, I respond. Deal with it!

[Leo Caesius]

To be honest, Leo, I find the person/people who made that website more credible than I find you.I'm not seeing the relevance of your personal beliefs. No one is asking you for your opinion of me, AMBOMB; if you want to talk about how you feel, that's your prerogative, but I'm busy highlighting the fact the website you posted about Mithraism is a big steaming load of bullshit.

Anyone who really wants to know the "facts" about Mithraism will start with the authoritative Encyclopaedia Iranica, which, fortunately for us, has a web presence (http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Mithraism.html).

[Norman]

What if here we're all thinking we live in a world run by various religions such as Christianity and Islam, when the real 'rulers fo the world' are hidden Mithraists?

[AMBOMB]

I'm not seeing the relevance of your personal beliefs.
You don't see the relevence of my belief as to the relative credibility of you and the person/people who made the website when I determine who to believe?

[DominusNovus]

When I'm contradicted, I respond. Deal with it!
My problem is not with your views. Its where you choose to voice them. We've been over this before. There's a chat forum to discuss this kind of stuff. I'm sick of the actual alternate history forum being used to discuss off topic stuff.

[Diamond]

My problem is not with your views. Its where you choose to voice them. We've been over this before. There's a chat forum to discuss this kind of stuff. I'm sick of the actual alternate history forum being used to discuss off topic stuff.
Totally in agreement here. This is why there's so few actual TL's here; we get people trolling in them and discouraging the authors.

[AMBOMB]

My problem is not with your views. Its where you choose to voice them. We've been over this before. There's a chat forum to discuss this kind of stuff. I'm sick of the actual alternate history forum being used to discuss off topic stuff.
My original message (message 174) was on topic. You posted a response disagreeing with me. So, I responded. It went from there.

[DominusNovus]

My original message (message 174) was on topic. You posted a response disagreeing with me. So, I responded. It went from there.
Agreed. That post was on topic. And I knew that it could quickly get off topic. Thats why I said that you shouldn't get an argument going on the whole godman thing. This isn't the thread for it.

[AMBOMB]

Agreed. That post was on topic. And I knew that it could quickly get off topic. Thats why I said that you shouldn't get an argument going on the whole godman thing. This isn't the thread for it.
Actually, it was Leo who started that (message 181).

[DominusNovus]

Actually, it was Leo who started that (message 181).

message 179:
Originally, Christianity was very much like Mithraism. Both were pagan mystery religions. The story of Mithras and the story of Jesus are both pagan godman myths. Literalist Christianity (practiced by people who think Jesus actually existed) got started later. That aside, if Constantine had picked Mithraism instead of Christianity, Mithraism would've been shown favoritism by the Roman government and so there would've been a lot more Mithraists, which is exactly what happened with Christianity.
Just please take it to the chat forum.

[AMBOMB]

That was in response to your statement that there were differences between Mithraism and Christianity!

[DominusNovus]

That was in response to your statement that there were differences between Mithraism and Christianity!
But you brought up the whole godman thing and the "Jesus didn't exist" thing.

[AMBOMB]

But you brought up the whole godman thing and the "Jesus didn't exist" thing.
First of all, I brought up the godman thing in response to your statement that there were differences between Mithraism and Christianity. Second of all, I haven't said Jesus didn't exist on this thread.

[robertp6165]

To be honest, Leo, I find the person/people who made that website more credible than I find you.

Yes, any website which features this picture (http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/scholarship_getting_started.html) is just oozing with credibility. Certainly makes ME want to believe everything they say. :D

[DominusNovus]

First of all, I brought up the godman thing in response to your statement that there were differences between Mithraism and Christianity. Second of all, I haven't said Jesus didn't exist on this thread.
You alluded it.
Literalist Christianity (practiced by people who think Jesus actually existed) got started later.
Tone aside, the only way you could make that statement is if you thought Jesus didn't exist. Otherwise, 'literalist christianity' would have been there all along.

But I'm done arguing this here. Absolutely done. If you want to keep on it, go to the Chat forum. I'd prefer to keep this thread as much on topic as possible. This thread has been about the timeline inspired by this same thread, for nearly a year now. If you want to make your own, then make your own. But I'm not going to go into the different dark ages map thread and start going on about how the modern koran developed later than muslims hold it to have developed, or something like that (besides the fact that Islam in that timeline is a completely different religion). They've already pursued the idea, which is a rarity. We've all got great ideas, but a thread where someone actually makes a timeline is rare, and those based on someone else's map/question/whatever are rarer still.

[AMBOMB]

You alluded it.

Tone aside, the only way you could make that statement is if you thought Jesus didn't exist. Otherwise, 'literalist christianity' would have been there all along.

But I'm done arguing this here. Absolutely done. If you want to keep on it, go to the Chat forum. I'd prefer to keep this thread as much on topic as possible. This thread has been about the timeline inspired by this same thread, for nearly a year now. If you want to make your own, then make your own. But I'm not going to go into the different dark ages map thread and start going on about how the modern koran developed later than muslims hold it to have developed, or something like that (besides the fact that Islam in that timeline is a completely different religion). They've already pursued the idea, which is a rarity. We've all got great ideas, but a thread where someone actually makes a timeline is rare, and those based on someone else's map/question/whatever are rarer still.
This isn't an argument you should've started with me in the first place because I didn't start the pagan godman argument on this thread. Leo did, by contradicting my assertion that Mithras was a pagan godman. So, if anything, you should've been bitching at him, not me.

[tom]

In originally researching this, I came across a book that indicates we may have drastically underestimated the number of Mithraists in the Empire, based on number and size of Mithraea (sp?). The "churches" of this religion were not, apparently, meant to hold the entire congregation at once. Mithras was quite popular with the Roman military, who did not have their days off on the same day (for reasons Israel learned on Yom Kippur 1973). Thus, the "apparent" number of adherants should be multiplied by seven. This still does not make them greater in number than Christians in early 4th Century, but it comes close.

[Norman]

In originally researching this, I came across a book that indicates we may have drastically underestimated the number of Mithraists in the Empire, based on number and size of Mithraea (sp?). The "churches" of this religion were not, apparently, meant to hold the entire congregation at once. Mithras was quite popular with the Roman military, who did not have their days off on the same day (for reasons Israel learned on Yom Kippur 1973). Thus, the "apparent" number of adherants should be multiplied by seven. This still does not make them greater in number than Christians in early 4th Century, but it comes close.

This suggests that in a 'modern' Mithraic world there would have been no 'legislated day of rest' but rather a continual low 'hum' of religious activity. This raises the issue of how holidays would have been handled. Perhaps in all but rare occasions, they would have taken place over several days, during which time observant Mithraists would have to fulfill certain rites.

[cow defender]

good work w/ this one gents... keep it up and don't let the bastards get you down.

[Leo Caesius]

As I said before, a wealth of reliable information on Mithraism can be found at the Encyclopaedia Iranica (http://www.iranica.com/), founded and directed by the Ehsan Yarshater, professor of Iranian studies at Columbia University, funded by the National Endowment for the Humanities, and counting among its contributors and editors such luminaries as Prods Oktor Skjaervo, Aga Khan Professor of Iranian at Harvard University. Fortunately for our purposes, it has a web presence. You can read more about the project here (http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2005-03-15/niknejad-iranica) at the Columbia University news service.

[tom]

The Wikipedia article (don't know how reliable Leo would consider it) suggests Mithraism was already syncretizing with other belief systems, particularly ones involved in astrology. This would make an Isis syncretizing more plausible.

[tom]

Bump.
Norman used a character from this TL in his Crosstime Semester at Sea stories. And I used a more advanced outcome of the TL as the seed of a second contact sphere in my more recent Child's Guide to Intertimeline Travel.