AH Challenge: The Weimar Republic Survives TL

[Wendell]

Would it, or an autonomous province of the Republic of China?

IOTL they sent representatives in '46 to work out a new Chinese constitution.

If they do go independent, whose influence will they end up under, Chinese or British/Indian?
They would be independent and probably under British/Indian influence, atleast initially.

[Kabraloth]

Reworked 1990s...

Questions:
1) What is the status of Cyprus?
2) So Peru and Chile are now PACPA members. Since when (events)?
3) When did China join PACPA? I must have missed the event completely (I'm turning blind, I guess), but I can only find the event where they leave.

[Thande]

By the way, VERY nice stripe-shading effects on those maps, Kabraloth, and a better choice of colours. :)

We could really use your talent in the Map Thread, hint hint... ;)

[Kabraloth]

By the way, VERY nice stripe-shading effects on those maps, Kabraloth, and a better choice of colours. :)
Thanks. That was Paint, btw. :)

We could really use your talent in the Map Thread, hint hint... ;)
I've already posted a couple of maps there, though. And I'm still trying to get my own timeline off the doozy.

[Glen]

Reworked 1990s...

Questions:
1) What is the status of Cyprus?

Good question. I don't know that we ever addressed it.


2) So Peru and Chile are now PACPA members. Since when (events)?

As allies of the USA, I always sort of imagined them in it, but I don't know that we ever posted events stating such.


3) When did China join PACPA? I must have missed the event completely (I'm turning blind, I guess), but I can only find the event where they leave.

Ah, that one IS in there and easy to explain. They were a founding member, didn't join. When the USA and Phillippines joined up with the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere the name was changed.

[Glen]

By the way, VERY nice stripe-shading effects on those maps, Kabraloth, and a better choice of colours. :)

We could really use your talent in the Map Thread, hint hint... ;)

Thande! You can not steal my mapmaker unless you start contributing events to the XXth Century Project!

Of course, Kabraloth, you should come over too and get in on the act. I don't think Esperanto has a chance ITTL, but we're starting to enter the timeperiod where computer science could use some initial events.

[Kabraloth]

Good question. I don't know that we ever addressed it.
Shortly before or after Egypt's independance, they might consider it worth to leave that corner of the mediterranian to an ally's defense (less expenses). With both of them in the NEA, would the British consider giving Cyprus back to Turkey? Or Greece? I'm rooting for Turkey (for irrational reasons).

Ah, that one IS in there and easy to explain. They were a founding member, didn't join. When the USA and Phillippines joined up with the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere the name was changed.
Okay: the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere was not mentioned before it joined up with the USA and the Phillipines to become PACPA. That threw me off.

[Glen]

Shortly before or after Egypt's independance, they might consider it worth to leave that corner of the mediterranian to an ally's defense (less expenses). With both of them in the NEA, would the British consider giving Cyprus back to Turkey? Or Greece? I'm rooting for Turkey (for irrational reasons).

Actually, I could see Cyprus staying under the UK to avoid a dispute between Greece and Turkey (both NEA).


Okay: the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere was not mentioned before it joined up with the USA and the Phillipines to become PACPA. That threw me off.

Gotcha.

[Wendell]

How about setting up Cyprus as a dominion within the Empire, not unlike Canada or Australia?

[Glen]

How about setting up Cyprus as a dominion within the Empire, not unlike Canada or Australia?

Seems too small for dominion status, don't you think?

[Kabraloth]

Another suggestion: The Andean Alliance/Andean Pact (just what is it called?) is last mentioned in 1962 after fighting a war with US assistance. This would be a good time for them to join up with PACPA, imo (US sponsorship and everthing).

Suggestion: May 21st 1963 - Peru and Chile formally end the Andean Pact as both nations join PACPA. With increasing cooperation between the PACPA member nations, the USA considers the admission of these two countries both as a diplomatic victory and strong warning against further communist aggression in the Pacific Region and South America.

[Glen]

Another suggestion: The Andean Alliance/Andean Pact (just what is it called?) is last mentioned in 1962 after fighting a war with US assistance. This would be a good time for them to join up with PACPA, imo (US sponsorship and everthing).

Suggestion: May 21st 1963 - Peru and Chile formally end the Andean Pact as both nations join PACPA. With increasing cooperation between the PACPA member nations, the USA considers the admission of these two countries both as a diplomatic victory and strong warning against further communist aggression in the Pacific Region and South America.

I agree, but don't end the Andean Pact per se, just have them join PACPA. PACPA is a bit more of an economic than military organization (though there are shades of that).

I wonder what Mexico is doing through all of this?

Also, IIRC, Canada should have joint PACPA/Commonwealth membership?

[Kabraloth]

I agree, but don't end the Andean Pact per se, just have them join PACPA. PACPA is a bit more of an economic than military organization (though there are shades of that).
Fine.
May 21st 1963 - Peru and Chile formally join PACPA under the sponsorship of the USA. With increasing cooperation between the PACPA member nations, the USA considers the admission of the Andean Pact countries both as a diplomatic victory and strong warning against further communist aggression in the Pacific Region and South America.

I wonder what Mexico is doing through all of this?
March 35th 1995 - President Sancho Pansa of Mexico declares the "national reawakening", after what has become known as "the long snooze" (1919-1995). Civil unrest ensues, as several Mexicans feel that they should be given "just five more minutes".

Also, IIRC, Canada should have joint PACPA/Commonwealth membership?
Not in the writeup yet, as far as I can see.

[Glen]

Fine.
May 21st 1963 - Peru and Chile formally join PACPA under the sponsorship of the USA. With increasing cooperation between the PACPA member nations, the USA considers the admission of the Andean Pact countries both as a diplomatic victory and strong warning against further communist aggression in the Pacific Region and South America.

Very nice! Will be included in the next update of the timeline.


March 35th 1995 - President Sancho Pansa of Mexico declares the "national reawakening", after what has become known as "the long snooze" (1919-1995). Civil unrest ensues, as several Mexicans feel that they should be given "just five more minutes".

:pvery funny:p


Not in the writeup yet, as far as I can see.

So, what do people think? Should Canada have joint Commonwealth/PACPA membership?

[Wendell]

Seems too small for dominion status, don't you think?
Not really. Besides, Tuvalu is a dominion IOTL.

As for Cyprus, the move wouldn't be unfounded. It could even be called the "Kingdom (rather than Dominion) of Cyprus."

[Wendell]

Should Canada have joint Commonwealth/PACPA membership?
I like this idea, but would it end with Canada?

[Glen]

Not really. Besides, Tuvalu is a dominion IOTL.

As for Cyprus, the move wouldn't be unfounded. It could even be called the "Kingdom (rather than Dominion) of Cyprus."


You think? Tuvalu is a separate dominion, really?

Then can y'all write some events regarding this?

[Glen]

I like this idea, but would it end with Canada?

Thinking Hong Kong, Singapore, and Australia?

Maybe...but then again, maybe that's too much....

[Wendell]

You think? Tuvalu is a separate dominion, really?

Then can y'all write some events regarding this?
Yes Tuvalu constitutes its own dominion in our timeline. As do several other insular nations.

Maybe the British in the 1950's propose setting up a dominion in Cyprus to restrain both Greek and Turkish influence?

[Wendell]

Thinking Hong Kong, Singapore, and Australia?

Maybe...but then again, maybe that's too much....
I could see Singapore, Australia and New Zealand as members, maybe even Britain as well...

[Glen]

I could see Singapore, Australia and New Zealand as members, maybe even Britain as well...

I don't think Britain.

I don't know...awful lot of overlap there...

Lets keep it mostly non-Commonwealth.

[Kabraloth]

Problem that I see with Commonwealth/PACPA membership that essentially it would be a conflict with British interests - they would (rightfully) be scared that this is a large step towards independance for the dominions and an eventual collapse of their Commonwealth (which I assume is tighter in this world than in ours; if that is not the case, the argument does not apply, of course).
I could see cooperation between PACPA and the Commonwealth, though.

[Glen]

Problem that I see with Commonwealth/PACPA membership that essentially it would be a conflict with British interests - they would (rightfully) be scared that this is a large step towards independance for the dominions and an eventual collapse of their Commonwealth (which I assume is tighter in this world than in ours; if that is not the case, the argument does not apply, of course).
I could see cooperation between PACPA and the Commonwealth, though.

I tend to agree, though Britain by the mid century isn't as central to the Commonwealth as one might suspect. Rather the Commonwealth is bipolar with a loose coalition of 'Anglo' Dominions on one side and the Confederation of India on the other. There are also African and Islamic coalitions within the Commonwealth system, but they are less well organized than the big two.

[Kabraloth]

Redone 1950...

[Kabraloth]

Redone 1960s...

[Kabraloth]

Redone 1970s...

[Kabraloth]

Redone 1980s...

[Kabraloth]

Redone 1990s...

[Glen]

Great work on the Maps!

What's the stripes in Chile and Peru?

[Kabraloth]

Combined Andean Pact/PACPA membership.

[Wendell]

I don't think Britain.

I don't know...awful lot of overlap there...

Lets keep it mostly non-Commonwealth.
Suppose that the Commonweath split into two parts?

[Glen]

Suppose that the Commonweath split into two parts?

I don't think so....

[Wendell]

I don't think so....
One lead by India and the other by Britain?

[Glen]

One lead by India and the other by Britain?

That would be the logical split, except I don't see many of the other Commonwealth nations following India.

I think the power balance between Britain and the anglo nations and the Indian Confederation is what is helping hold the Commonwealth together. With that balance, the smaller nations can have some power, as their support is necessary to tip policy towards one faction or the other. A Commonwealth without one or the other becomes too unbalanced in power, and the other nations will just leave.

[Kabraloth]

1920 map - RC 2.

[Kabraloth]

The 1930s - RC2

[Thande]

More maptastic goodness! :cool:

[Kabraloth]

The 1940s - RC 2

And that's it for this week. More to see on Monday.

[Glen]

Nice work, my man!

[Wendell]

How do you do the creative backgrounds for these maps?

[Kabraloth]

Filter-whoring pictures.

[Kabraloth]

The 1940s - RC 3

[Kabraloth]

The 1950s - RC 2

[Kabraloth]

The 1960s - RC 2

[Kabraloth]

The 1970s - RC 1

[Glen]

IIRC, Afganistan shouldn't be Communist until the 1970s...

Great maps, as always, Kal, but what's that blue background supposed to represent in the 1970s? Its kinda losing the NEA in its darkness.

[Kabraloth]

Eh, I will doublecheck that.
That's a lion relief from Mesopotamia.

[Kabraloth]

The 1960s - RC 3

[Kabraloth]

The 1980s - RC 1

[Kabraloth]

And finally, the last map: the 1990s - RC 1

[Kabraloth]

Corrected 1960s basemap... somehow it became a duplicate of the 1970s...

[Glen]

These are such great maps!

I feel like Weimar World is truly alive!

Can you take us all the way to the 2010s?

[Kabraloth]

Sure. Could you repost the list of the 2000s and 2010s events? The last one I saw had no political changes that I am aware of and it could be that I missed some additional events later.

[Kabraloth]

Well, guess not. Here's the 2000s then.

[Kabraloth]

And the 2010s.

[Kabraloth]

Corrected 1990s map.

Now I think the map-making for the Weimar World timeline is finally done.

[Glen]

Hmmm. Konrad Zuse would definitely be born before our POD, so he's going to be able to develop computing in a peaceful Germany, and the Brits and Americans are as likely to pick up on it.

How can we incorporate this into the rest of our computing items?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse

[Glen]

Any volunteers to help edit the timeline to refined format for posting in Timelines and Scenarios?

Also, let's do a round-robin review of the nations of the world and make certain there aren't events that need to be added to define significant differences from OTL that SHOULD occur given the rest of the events already in the timeline.

[Kabraloth]

Hmmm. Konrad Zuse would definitely be born before our POD, so he's going to be able to develop computing in a peaceful Germany, and the Brits and Americans are as likely to pick up on it.

How can we incorporate this into the rest of our computing items?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse
Have him die early in a car accident. Not everything can go better.

Any volunteers to help edit the timeline to refined format for posting in Timelines and Scenarios?

Also, let's do a round-robin review of the nations of the world and make certain there aren't events that need to be added to define significant differences from OTL that SHOULD occur given the rest of the events already in the timeline.
While I'd like to, I'm currently too busy with other things. Should you hang on for five weeks, I'd gladly help, though.

[Glen]

Have him die early in a car accident. Not everything can go better.

Everything doesn't go better, not for everyone.

There's no reason to kill him, and two reasons to keep him:
1) Anything that helps the Weimar Republic to survive the 20th century is of benefit given the AH Challenge.
2) Showing what would happen in a world where the Weimar Republic does survive is an important feature of the timeline. I believe this qualifies.


While I'd like to, I'm currently too busy with other things. Should you hang on for five weeks, I'd gladly help, though.

Well, five weeks from now we may still be at it, so please do check back.:D

[Glen]

Happy Weimar World Day!

August 11 is the day that Weimar World Germany celebrates their version of Independence Day, and is the last date in the timeline.

[Kabraloth]

Here's to Weimer.
*cheers*

[Glen]

Soooo.....

....once we get this timeline editted and up in Timelines and Scenarios....

....who's up for tackling the second 100 years of Weimar World?:eek: :D ;) :cool:

[Kabraloth]

I've actually been thinking about a derivate (a Weimar World III, if you are so inclined). In it, Tukhachevsky's coup against Stalin succeeds. Only, I have no time.

On another note: the LoN kinda swims along ITTL. Do you think anybody would try to reform it to give it more power (even as little as OTL UN has)?

[Glen]

I've actually been thinking about a derivate (a Weimar World III, if you are so inclined). In it, Tukhachevsky's coup against Stalin succeeds. Only, I have no time.

Well, when you do, go for it!


On another note: the LoN kinda swims along ITTL. Do you think anybody would try to reform it to give it more power (even as little as OTL UN has)?

What makes you think this LoN has less power than OTL UN?

Also note it is inheritantly more equitable as the victors of WWI don't have veto power or 'permanent seats' on a security council.

[Kabraloth]

What makes you think this LoN has less power than OTL UN?Because TTL it had less power. And since the POD is after the LoN's establishment and there has not been any mention of change, I doubt it has. I don't even see how this would be done - it would afaik require the agreement of all member nations, which is the same that blocks UN reformation.

Also note it is inheritantly more equitable as the victors of WWI don't have veto power or 'permanent seats' on a security council.
Untrue. At the beginning of the LoN, the Council (met 5 times a year) had 4 permanent members (France, Britain, Japan, and Italy - it should have been 5 with the USA) and 4 non-permanent members.
The Assembly (met once a year) did have all members represented, however. I will disregard the commissions here (even though they deserve praise for what they did).

[Glen]

Because TTL it had less power. And since the POD is after the LoN's establishment and there has not been any mention of change, I doubt it has. I don't even see how this would be done - it would afaik require the agreement of all member nations, which is the same that blocks UN reformation.


Untrue. At the beginning of the LoN, the Council (met 5 times a year) had 4 permanent members (France, Britain, Japan, and Italy - it should have been 5 with the USA) and 4 non-permanent members.
The Assembly (met once a year) did have all members represented, however. I will disregard the commissions here (even though they deserve praise for what they did).


Okay, fair enough. You got me there!

I'm guessing Italy lost their permanent seat after Ethiopia and the Tunisian War.

France Britain and Japan should have worked fine ITTL for quite a while.

The US probably got Italy's seat when they joined up.

I think they'd almost have to give Germany a permanent seat at some point....

[Kabraloth]

(Meant to say that it had less power OTL. Mea culpa.)

OTL Germany joined in 1926 and became a permanent member on 8 September of that year. I see no reason to change that.

Italy widthdrew in 1937 (one year after Abyssinia). The Abyssinia crisis was a flop and a massive weakening of the LoN because the non-member USA declared that it would not abide by the LoN weapons sanction and continued to trade with Italy. When the sanctions were lifted in 1936, they were considered useless.

The only one who was kicked out was the USSR, for invading Finland.

What I think could make the LoN more powerful:
1) Constant council meetings, like the UN. I could see this as early as shortly after the 1943 Greek crisis.
2) A designated military, however weak it is. While it would still be the military of member nations, it would be under a LoN umbrella (kinda like the blue helmets). Problem OTL was that, if Britain and France were not interesting in helping with their armies and navies, nobody did anything.
Some weaker members could pay off their membership fee by providing soldiers, for example. I don't know if this is feasible, however. Maybe if it is a very limited military (e.g. 200,000 men, no equipment heavier than a jeep) for better police work.
3) The USA not deliberatly weakening the LoN at this critical moment when a permanent member and a Great Power was condemned and put under sanctions.


Hmm.. events?

[Glen]

(Meant to say that it had less power OTL. Mea culpa.)

OTL Germany joined in 1926 and became a permanent member on 8 September of that year. I see no reason to change that.

Okay.


Italy widthdrew in 1937 (one year after Abyssinia). The Abyssinia crisis was a flop and a massive weakening of the LoN because the non-member USA declared that it would not abide by the LoN weapons sanction and continued to trade with Italy. When the sanctions were lifted in 1936, they were considered useless.

The only one who was kicked out was the USSR, for invading Finland.

Okay, though we have the USSR withdrawing from the LoN somewhere in the timeline IIRC.


What I think could make the LoN more powerful:
1) Constant council meetings, like the UN. I could see this as early as shortly after the 1943 Greek crisis.

More like after the Tunisian War.


2) A designated military, however weak it is. While it would still be the military of member nations, it would be under a LoN umbrella (kinda like the blue helmets). Problem OTL was that, if Britain and France were not interesting in helping with their armies and navies, nobody did anything.
Some weaker members could pay off their membership fee by providing soldiers, for example. I don't know if this is feasible, however. Maybe if it is a very limited military (e.g. 200,000 men, no equipment heavier than a jeep) for better police work.

Troops are deployed under LoN auspices in the timeline.


3) The USA not deliberatly weakening the LoN at this critical moment when a permanent member and a Great Power was condemned and put under sanctions.

Hmm.. events?

That's going to happen regardless, the timeline didn't change that much.

Probably the LoN gets strengthened a bit after the Tunisian War, as the Powers see that it didn't work as is.

Then of course with Truman bringing the US into it in the 1950s, it should butch up nicely.

It will be on par with the UN in terms of strength, but that's about it.

[Glen]

BTW, feel free to craft this into events so long as they don't contradict what is already in the timeline.

[Kabraloth]

December 11, 1946 - After the Axis war has just ended and communist insurgents are creating unrest in many countries (the most obvious being China), the first significant change in the League of Nations is accepted by the Assembly (which consists of all member states): from now on, the Council will be in constant meeting, as a diplomatical front and coordination hub for multinational actions.

November 4, 1958 - The League of Nations' great reform is enacted - a revised charter is agreed upon by which sanction of the League are now legally binding (although even in the early 21st century, not all member nations have ratified this), the Council is strenghtened (it consists of 10 constant members and 5 changing observers with voting rights), and the commissions are given more founding.

(And because I am on a roll.)

February 11, 1969 - The League of Nation commissions of international cooperation and education proudly announce that one quarter of the generation born after the Great War is fluent in Esperanto, with those born after 1950 being a major contributing factor.

[Glen]

December 11, 1946 - After the Axis war has just ended and communist insurgents are creating unrest in many countries (the most obvious being China), the first significant change in the League of Nations is accepted by the Assembly (which consists of all member states): from now on, the Council will be in constant meeting, as a diplomatical front and coordination hub for multinational actions.

I think this one makes sense.


November 4, 1958 - The League of Nations' great reform is enacted - a revised charter is agreed upon by which sanction of the League are now legally binding (although even in the early 21st century, not all member nations have ratified this), the Council is strenghtened (it consists of 10 constant members and 5 changing observers with voting rights), and the commissions are given more founding.

This one not as certain. Ten permanent members? Who?


(And because I am on a roll.)

February 11, 1969 - The League of Nation commissions of international cooperation and education proudly announce that one quarter of the generation born after the Great War is fluent in Esperanto, with those born after 1950 being a major contributing factor.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Why is Esperanto getting this much support at this level? I can see maybe at best 10% by 1969 knowing it as a second language...with fluency being questionable.

I think you'll find its best use will be in programming...:eek: ;)

[Kabraloth]

I think this one makes sense.
This one not as certain. Ten permanent members? Who?

France, Britain, Italy, Germany, Japan, USA, USSR (booted out temporarily), China, Turkey, India.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Why is Esperanto getting this much support at this level? I can see maybe at best 10% by 1969 knowing it as a second language...with fluency being questionable.
Because it got that much support OTL - the LoN proposed to its member nations that it be implemented as second language in schools (became irrelevant after the US-centric end of WW2). TTL, it has been creeping up as the working language of the LoN, which turned it into the language of diplomats, which gave it the kick it never got OTL.
And the most obvious: one of the two lost generations of Esperanto speakers did not get almost completely wiped out as in OTL. Many more to promote, many more to use it.

I think you'll find its best use will be in programming...:eek: ;)
Which makes it useful for geeks and you know how geeks are, hm?

[Glen]

France, Britain, Italy, Germany, Japan, USA, USSR (booted out temporarily), China, Turkey, India.

France Britain Germany Japan USA China in 1958, okay.

Italy USSR Turkey India no, won't happen IMO.

The USSR isn't booted out temporarily ITTL IIRC, instead they withdraw and stay out.

Italy is no longer of a status to warrant a permanent seat.

Turkey ITTL never was.

India is still too much part of the British Empire, not going to get a seat at this point in time.

Because it got that much support OTL - the LoN proposed to its member nations that it be implemented as second language in schools (became irrelevant after the US-centric end of WW2). TTL, it has been creeping up as the working language of the LoN, which turned it into the language of diplomats, which gave it the kick it never got OTL.
And the most obvious: one of the two lost generations of Esperanto speakers did not get almost completely wiped out as in OTL. Many more to promote, many more to use it.

It may be a second language available at schools, but unless they make it mandatory (which I don't see) its not going to be heavily attended. More people will take it in college (with the accompanying lack of fluency), especially those interested in diplomacy as you noted.

Like I said, 10%.


Which makes it useful for geeks and you know how geeks are, hm?

Yes, so when the computer revolution gets going, the popularity of Esperanto might go up, but not in the year you've got it that high. It might even rise to the level of becoming a required class sometime in the early 21st century, though still not starting in the earliest years, so still most people won't be particularly fluent in speaking it, though many more will know how to write it. In fact, it may become the default language of TTL's internet, not just its code.

[Kabraloth]

Fine. How's that?

November 4, 1958 - The League of Nations' great reform is enacted - a revised charter is agreed upon by which sanction of the League are now legally binding (although even in the early 21st century, not all member nations have ratified this), the Council is strenghtened (it now consists of 6 constant members - France, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, the USA, and China - and 6 changing non-permanent members), and the commissions are given more founding.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the spread of Esperanto (I still think you dismiss how much damage has been done to it with WW2 too lightly), so I will not bring it up again.

[Kabraloth]

Italics are edited, bold are added.

---------------------------------------------------------

1920
March 13, 1920 Reichstag member Wolfgang Kapp makes an impassioned speech on the floor of the Reichstag protesting the end of pay to Freicorps members. He warns that many more actions like this could lead to a nationwide Putsch. (OTL Kapp was one of the leaders of the Kapp Putsch.)
March 14, 1920 Central Schleswig votes over 80% in favor of reunification with Germany.
March 20, 1920 A NSDAP sympathizer within the Reichswehr blows the whistle on up and comer within the party, Adolf Hitler, who is revealed to be a Reichswehr spy.
March 31, 1920 Alleged Reichswehr spy Adolf Hitler mustered out of the Reichswehr, and is reported to return to his native Austria.
April 10, 1920 Government stops paying Freikorps units.
May 9, 1920 Hitler joins the Heimwehr in Austria.
June 20, 1920 Elections for the Reichstag results in significant gains for the DVP and DNVP, minor loses for the SPD. Chancellor Gustav Bauer (SPD) forms a new grand coalition government and reorganizes the cabinet; making Gustav Stresemann (DVP) Foreign Minister.
August 11, 1920 National Disarmament Law takes effect; disbanded civil guards.
August 19, 1920 Second Silesian Uprising, French troops do little to control the situation.

1921
January 16, 1921 Aristide Briand becomes Prime Minister of France, begins shortly thereafter discussions with German Foreign Minister Gustav Stresemann regarding reparations.
March 21, 1921 Plebiscite held in Upper Silesia. They vote to remain part of Germany.
May 3, 1921 Polish forces under Wojciech Korfantry invade Upper Silesia.
May 4, 1921 Stresemann gets Briand’s France to enforce the rule of law in Upper Silesia; the Poles are required to leave.
July 1, 1921 Tentative agreement is reached for more favorable reparation payments by Germany, mostly due to the growing respect between Briand and Stresemann.
July 11, 1921 NSDAP under Anton Drexler votes to join Julius Streicher’s DSP.

1922
January 15, 1922 Stresemann secures loans to German government, allowing the Reichsmark to be fixed to a gold standard.
April 16, 1922 Treaty of Rapallo signed between Germany and the Soviet Union. Both countries renounce all territorial and financial claims against the other.
April 18, 1922 First international conference on Esperanto in Geneva, initiated by the League of Nations. The unanimous recommendation of the conference is to advise the member states that Esperanto should be taught at elementary schools around the world as the first foreign language. While this suggestion was taken up on the agenda of the LoN for the third time, like the two times before no consensus could be reached due to France's rigid position, born from the desire to keep French as the language of diplomats.
July 21, 1922 High inflation begins in Austria. The gold standard based German Reichsmark is little affected.
October 27, 1922 Benito Mussolini establishes his Fascist dictatorship in Italy.

1923
March 13, 1923 Adolf Hitler, inspired by the example of Benito Mussolini, starts a more political wing of the Heimwehr, centered on the Pan-Germanic faction of the paramilitary group.
June 3, 1923 After new elections for the Reichstag, Gustav Stresemann becomes Chancellor of a center-right coalition government. He retains the portfolio of Foreign Minister.

1924
February 28, 1924 Reichspresident Friedrich Ebert makes the first visit of a German head of state to Great Britain since the war.
November 22, 1924 Strasser wing of DSP goes into rebellion over Streicher’s leadership.
December 1, 1924 The Locarno Treaties are signed in London, in which the former Entente and the new European states secure the post-war territorial settlement and normalize their relations with Germany.

1925
January 14, 1925 Germany joins the League of Nations and becomes the fifth permanent Council member.
September 10, 1925 Germany successfully lobbies for a referendum in the Memel region, and they vote in favor of reunification with Germany.
October 3, 1925 The Nobel Committee announces that the Nobel Peace Prize will be awarded to Austen Chamberlain, Aristide Briand, and Gustav Stresemann for the Locarno treaty.

1926
April 24, 1926 Germany and the Soviet Union sign the Berlin Treaty, pledging neutrality in case of an attack on the other by a third party.
June 3, 1926 Friedrich Ebert narrowly wins re-election on the second ballot when the right rallies from a poor showing in the first round by drafting General Paul von Hindenburg as their candidate in the second round.

1927
June 3, 1927 General Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck is made Army Chief of Staff.
November 9, 1927 Chancellor Stresemann concludes Treaty of Munich with Czechoslovakia formally recognizing the border between Germany and Czechoslovakia in return for concessions to the German minority in the Sudetenland, including recognition of German as an official language of Czechoslovakia and a minimum number of spots in the Czech cabinet for ethnic Germans.

1928
February 3, 1928 The Simon Commission lands in Bombay. The first of many boycotts organized by the Indian National Congress occurs.
October 24, 1928 Chancellor Gustav Stresemann dies of a massive heart attack. Hermann Müller forms grand coalition government and replaces him as Chancellor.

1929
December 10, 1929 The "Black Tuesday": a collapse of the stock exchange in New York City starts a world economic collapse and results in the Great Depression.

---------------------------------------------------------

The following event has been removed:
February 14, 1926 Bamberg conference begins.

The historical Bamber conferende:
The Bamberg Conference (1926) was held during the "wilderness years" of the Nazi party. Hitler's decision to call the meeting was something of a gamble. His aim was to restore some resemblance of party unity and agree a future programme. To achieve this he had to put pressure on his rival Gregor Strasser's delegates to come into line. What was meant to be a debate was quickly turned into a five-hour monologue, dominated by Hitler. Bamberg was chosen as it was situated on the way to the northern Gauleiter, but still on Bavarian soil. Hitler slowly began to regain support and by mid-1926 he was in control of the party once again. At this conference the young Joseph Goebbels, an associate of the Strasser brothers switched sides and joined Hitler.
Hitler was just fresh out of prison and brought the party under his heel. TTL he's not even in Germany anymore. Either this is a different event with the same name, in which case it should be more detailed, or it is the same, in which case it does not fit into the TL.

[Glen]

bump bump bump

[Kabraloth]

You can't bump this. I might actually have to look through the '30s now. :(

[Glen]

You can't bump this. I might actually have to look through the '30s now. :(

Tell me about it!

Wasn't on my 'to do' list for now either, but there it is.

[Glen]

Need to go through the last several pages and see what has been added to the timeline already and what needs to be considered for addition. There's definitely some good stuff here that needs incorporation.

Just for now no time, no time....

[Kabraloth]

1930
March 12 1930 Gandhi starts his march to protest the salt tax law.
June 30, 1930 Chancellor Hermann Müller leaves office when his own party (SPD) abandons the coalition. A center right coalition forms with Zentrum party leader Heinrich Brüning as chancellor.
July 4 1930 Lord Irwin, after meeting with members of the governing Labour Party in London, announces the creation of a round table which will discuss India’s constitutional progress for achieving Dominion status.
October 24, 1930 A coup d'état in Brazil replaces Washington Luis with the populist General Getúlio Vargas. Vargas embarks on a path of social reformism to attempt a reconciliation between the population's radically diverging interests. Reflecting the influence of the tenentes, he even advocated a program of social welfare and reform with striking parallel to the US-American New Deal. Vargas develops a "legal hybrid" between the regimes of Mussolini's Italy and Salazar's Portuguese "Estado Novo", copying repressive fascist tactics, and conveying their same rejection of liberal capitalism, but attains power baring few indications of his future quasi-fascist polices. With a new constitution drafted with extensive influence from European fascist models, Vargas begins reining in even moderate trade unions and turning against the tenentes. His further concessions to the latifundios pushes him toward an alliance with the Integralists, Brazil's mobilized fascist movement.
November 12 1930 The first round table meetings on India show the differences between Indian Muslims and Hindus. The Hindus want a strong central government while the Muslims want a loose confederation. To complicate matters even more, the Sikhs speak up for an independant Sikh nation in Punjab.

1931
January 12th 1931 The first round table meetings on India end. What emerges is an agreement to safe guard minorities in the constitution and the creation of a weak federal government to appease the Muslim delegates.
March 5 1931 The second round table meetings on India begin. Gandhi misses the meetings due to health reasons and the Congress representatives agree on the basis of a communal settlement for India. When the delegates return to India, Gandhi disavows their actions and the agreement, dividing the Indian National Congress party. The Gandhi faction starts civil disobedience but the division of their party shows they are not the representatives of the whole Indian people.
June 1, 1931 Three million unemployed reported in Germany.
June 20, 1931 Herbert Hoover puts a moratorium on reparations.
August 11, 1931 The Austrian Kreditanstalt collapses.
September 13, 1931 The German bank crisis occurs.
September 20, 1931 Alfred Hugenberg made leader of DNVP by narrow margin.
October 11, 1931 Attempts to form a coalition between DNVP, Stahlhelm, DSP, and the Strasser splinter group fail. The DNVP decides to stay in the government for the time being.

1932
March 5, 1932 Julius Streicher, leader of the DSP, is arrested on charges of obscenity and perversion charges. The high profile trial stretches through much of 1932, and is a nadir for the far right.
April 20, 1932 Darkhorse candidate Carl Friedrich Goerdeler successfully challenges Alfred Hugenberg for leadership of the DNVP. He vows that the DNVP will stay the course with the current government.
December 25, 1932 Constitutional rule is restored in Chile. Arturo Fortunato Alessandri Palma, a member of the Liberal Party, becomes president of Chile, serving until 1938.

1933
March 31, 1933 A conservative coup d’etat topples the socialist government of Uruguay. The socialist reform leaders are either assassinated or flee into exile, and a conservative dictatorship begins. The Colorado party turns further to the left during the dictatorship years.
April 10, 1933 Friedrich Ebert loses badly in the second round of elections against center right consensus candidate and war hero Reichswehr Chief of Staff Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck. In his concession speech, Ebert calls for a peaceful transition of power, which by and large happens.
August 5 1933 The Government of India Act of 1933 is announced and will be implemented by 1935.
August 7, 1933 DNVP leader Goerdeler becomes Chancellor of Germany.
October 23, 1933 A letter from Ludwig Erhard regarding economic reform so impresses Chancellor Goerdeler that he brings the man onto his staff as an advisor.

1934
February 12, 1934 Kummersdorf becomes the base for German military rocket research.
March 21, 1934 Adolf Hitler’s Heimwehr faction instigates a civil war after refusing to join Engelbert Dolfuss’s Fatherland Front (the clerical faction of the Heimwehr joins the Fatherland Front, but is in the minority due to the recruitment efforts of the Charismatic Hitler). Several extremist volunteers from both Germany and Czechoslovakia swarm over the border to join the conflict in the early days. Socialists in Vienna take advantage of the chaos and take over the capitol, but can’t make progress very far from the city. With the onset of the Austrian Civil War, Albert Einstein leaves Austria, immigrating to Germany.
May 5, 1934 The League of Nations declares a weapons embargo of all sides in the Austrian Civil War, which is promptly violated by both the Soviets and Italians. The Italians are secretly sending aid to both the the Hitler and Dolfuss factions.
July 2, 1934 Former General Paul von Hindenburg dies, and Germany is thrown into a state of mourning that rivals the one after the death of Chancellor Stresemann.
July 16, 1934 A new constitution is enacted in Brazil. The Vargas government claims that the corporatist provisions of the constitution of 1934 will unite all classes in mutual interests - its stated purpose (but not always reality) in Fascist Italy.
August 13, 1934 President Lettow-Vorbeck ceremonially breaks ground on the newest rail line in Germany, one proposed to carry speed steam locomotives across the length and breadth of Germany. The railways are part of the revitalization package of Chancellor Goerdeler.
September 15, 1934 The Universala Esperanto-Asocio (UEA) finishes its structure reform, becoming the greatest organization dedicated to Esperanto.

1935
January 13, 1935 The Saarland votes over 90% to reunite with Germany.
May 20, 1935 Under pressure from Great Britain and with worsening economic problems, France acquiesces to "limited" German rearmament. Afterward, the rapid ‘development’ of the Reichswehr makes previous German covert rearming apparent, but the Great Powers turn a blind eye to this.
June 3, 1935 Brazilian politics have been drastically destabilized. Vargas' attention focuses on the rise of two nationally based and highly ideological European-style movements, both committed to European-style mass-mobilization: one pro-communist and the other pro-fascist; one linked to Moscow and the other to Rome.
July 8, 1935 The Dominion of India is created. Subhas Bose is named Prime Minister with Mohammed Ali Jinnah as second in command. An Indian parliament is created but British institutions and borders are maintained for the time being. The Indian National Party reunifies but they admit their failure in getting the support of the Muslims and that the two rival parties made the continued existence of this arrangement impossible.
August 30, 1935 A token military force enters the Rhineland. The French government proclaims this as a great diplomatic victory, as the German force is not even strong enough to defend the Rhineland, posting no threat to France. The German government points to this as the full restoration of German sovereignty and the return of Germany as a full member of the international family of nations.
October 3, 1935 Italian troops invade Abyssinia.
November 13, 1935 While the Austrian civil war has so far accomplished little except leading to the glorious deaths in battle of several notable extremists of the age, Hitler makes a bold radio speech from an undisclosed location, calling for the unification of all Germans in Germany and Czechoslovakia with Austria. The speech is only heard in the local area of the broadcast, however.

1936
March 02, 1936 Under the leadership of the UEA, several well-known Esperantists (among them Daniel Bovet, known for his 1937 discovery of antihistamines, hungarian author Julio Baghy, and the famous Robert Cecil) lobby the League of Nations to consider Esperanto as the working language. Despite a year long, drawn out discussion, no consensus can be reached, as France keeps hesitating to support it, and the Soviets feverishly lash out against the suggestion.
May 30, 1936 Italy annexes Abyssinia after a year long war which includes the use of mustard gas. By the end of June, after League condemnation of the annexation, Italy leaves the League of Nations.
July 10, 1936 The Spanish Civil War begins.
August 16, 1936 Closing Ceremonies of the glamorous 1936 Berlin Olympics. President Lettow-Vorbeck hosts a number of his former Askari in Berlin, allowed by the British government to travel from Tanzania to Germany for this event. Later, a photo in the Time magazine, showing the German president congratulating Jesse Owens with the Askari at his side leads the Ku Klux Klan to denounce Lettow-Vorbeck. Many of the Olympians and celebrities from America made the trip to Germany on the impressive Graf Zeppelin II. With its all Helium design, it is felt by many to be one of the safest means of transportation in history.
September 1, 1936 "Red" Vienna falls to a Fatherland Front attack, but Hitler’s faction then attacks the exsanguinated forces of Dolfuss; the city will be a divided war-zone for the rest of the conflict.
September 20, 1936 Germany and the West, fed up with the chaos in Austria and now civil war in Spain, agree to German military intervention in Austria. With the knock-out of the Socialists from the war, French Prime Minister Leon Blum sees little reason to hinder a republican Germany from intervening, as the success of either of the remaining two factions would be undesirable. German troops stream over the border and are by and large greeted as saviors by the war weary Austrians. To further reassure France and the United Kingdom, as well as to cement growing relations, Germany and Czechoslovakia sign a mutual defense treaty on the same day.
October 21, 1936 Rather than surrendering, Adolf Hitler commits suicide in his hideout in the mountains. Nearly all forces of both Fatherland Front and Heimwehr have surrendered to the rapidly advancing Germans, often without a single shot being fired. The few die-hard units are quickly dispatched by the Reichswehr. Dolfuss retires from politics.
December 9, 1936 After a few months of diplomacy, Italy acquiesces to German occupation and a vote on a reunion (the "Anschluss") after the German government agrees to recognize the possession of the South Tyrol by Italy.

1937
February 14, 1937 The Austrians hold a referendum overwhelmingly supporting unification with Germany. Though the Treaty of Saint Germaine forbade Austria from political or economic union with Germany, the Reich points out that they were not party to that agreement, and the Austrian government had essentially ceased to exist. World sentiment favors the unification.
March 15, 1937 Stalin, concerned about the close ties that have developed between Soviet military officers and the Germans during the years of cooperation in the 1920s, launches a purge of the Red Army that will last the year, essentially crippling the Red Army for the next several years.
March 9, 1937 Completion of move of military rocket research to Peenemünde (on the recommendation of Wernher von Braun). Kummersdorf converts over to military applications of atomic research, involving not only several German physicists, but also many Hungarian scientists who have immigrated to Germany to escape the repressive regime in their home.
April 12, 1937 Italy and Hungary form a mutual defense pact, called the Rome-Budapest Axis by Mussolini.
July 24, 1937 Germany proposes in the League of Nations a referendum on Danzig and the Polish Corridor. Poland opposes the idea.
August 20, 1937 Poland’s president, Ignacy Mo?cicki, thinking he could win a referendum that includes both the Kashubian populated Polish corridor and the German Danzig, and noting that a significant portion of the Reichswehr would still be in Austria, gambles and announces his willingness for the vote to happen, but that it must occur by mid September. Germany agrees.
September 10, 1937 Less than a week before the Polish Corridor referendum, the Reichstag approves sweeping minority rights legislation. This is the centerpiece of a wave of radio broadcasts in a campaign to win over the Kashubians in to the German Republic. The broadcasts place emphasis on the Sorbs, another Slavic group living within Germany who have done well (and greatly profit from the new legislation), as well as making distinction between the Kashubians and the Poles.
September 15, 1937 The Polish Corridor referendum, though fraught with fraud on both sides, shows a majority in favor of unification with the German Reich. Very high turnout in Danzig is one factor; another is the substantial minority of Kashubian voters who also vote for unification with Germany. While the German minority legislation and 11th hour radio campaign are believed to have been important factors, most historians agree that the deciding factors were the stability of the German government and their substantially better economic performance during the Great Depression.

September 16, 1937 When the result of the referendum starts to become known, Poland repudiates it as rigged and begins to move troops into the region as a "stabilizing measure". However, within hours of the Polish actions, heavy German troop movement is reported all along the border with Germany, many being identified as troops believed to be in Austria; even the Czechs appear to be mobilizing. Fearing a general invasion is about to occur, Marshal Edward Rydz-?mig?y begins to redeploy troops to hold off a large scale attack and to protect the capitol and key industrial centers.
September 17, 1937 In the predawn hours the Germans strike as expected in the Polish Corridor, but in an unexpected manner. Paratroops land throughout the narrow corridor, within the lines of the Polish forces in the region. While there were many problems with the drop, the surprise move throws the Polish forces within the corridor into confusion, which is taken advantage of by German troops moving in from Germany proper. The chancellor Goerdeler announces that the sole intention of the Germans is enforcing the will of the people in the recent referendum. Rydz-?mig?y refuses offers of assistance from the Soviets.
September 25, 1937 The leaders of France and Great Britain meet with the Germans in Hamburg to discuss the Polish Crisis. By this time, Polish troops have been expelled from the narrow Polish Corridor, allowing the formation of a continuous defensive line between East Prussia and the rest of Germany. Despite Marshal Rydz-?mig?y’s continued belief that the Germans will launch a full out assault, the Germans and Czechs have taken up defensive positions and no further incursions into Poland have occurred. The entire threatened invasion was an enormous bluff playing on Polish fears which tied down the bulk of their battle ready troops. After personal assurances by President Lettow-Vorbeck, the British and French agree to support the annexation of the Polish Corridor to Germany in return for Germany finally accepting the rest of their Eastern border with Poland and allowing liberal access to the Baltic for Polish businesses. With no support from the West, and fear of the Soviets, the Poles feel no choice but to tacitly accept what they refer to as ‘the selling out of Poland’.
October 1, 1937 Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain returns in triumph to London announcing that they shall have "peace in our time" and that "President Lettow-Vorbeck is a honorable man who we may trust to keep his word, both for himself and his nation".
November 10, 1937 Vargas, already ruling by decree, makes a broadcast to the people of Brazil in which he states his plans to assume dictatorial powers under the second new constitution of his regime (derived from European fascist models), thereby curtailing presidential elections (his ultimate objections) and dissolving congress.
November 17, 1937 Under the Estado Novo, the Brazilian state announces an ambitious "Five-Year Plan" whose goals included the expansion of the heavy industry, the creation of new sources of hydroelectric power, and the expansion of the railway network to develop Brazil's capital base. Empirical data will confirm that Vargas is advancing the bourgeois revolution, at least to an extent.
December 10, 1937 The final report of the British Commission on Palestine recommends a partition: a Jewish Homeland in the Northwest, a Palestinian state in the South and East, and a sizable remnant British Mandate around Jerusalem are suggested.

1938
January 1, 1938 Polish president Ignacy Mo?cicki is forced out of office by the military, and foreign minister Józef Beck is made president, while Marchal Rydz-?mig?y retains control of the army.
January 15, 1938 Poland formally joins the Axis. This is a bittersweet moment for Beck, as Poland is finally starting to become part of a "Third Europe", but one led by Italy, not Poland.
May 1, 1938 The nations of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Germany, and Czechoslovakia announce a Northern European Alliance to defend against communism (the Soviets particularly), and fascism. Quietly, Great Britain has given assurances of support for the group as well.
July 14, 1938 First jet airplane flight occurs at Heinkel Field.
September 5, 1938 Aware of the need of modern industry for abundant sources of power, Brazilian leader Vargas creates the National Petroleum Company to search for oil.
December 25, 1938 Pedro Aguirre Cerda of the Popular Front is elected president of Chile. He implements education reforms, but dies in 1941 while in office.

1939
January 13, 1939 Nuclear Fission discovered by Otto Hahn, Lise Meitner and their coworkers at the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institute for Chemistry in Berlin.
February 9, 1939 Bulgaria joins the Axis "Pact of Steel" with Italy, Poland and Hungary.
April 17, 1939 Italy attacks Albania, taking control of the small nation in the name of King Victor Emmanuel III.
June 23, 1939 The Nationalists have taken Madrid, and general Franco declares victory, becoming the fascist dictator of Spain.
October 1, 1939 Start of the Yugoslavian Crisis. Italy, Hungary, and Bulgaria invade Yugoslavia, threatening the complete partition the country. Within days Yugoslavia stands on the brink of collapse. German forces in German Austria mobilize along the border, but the British and French demand that the Italians meet for mediation.
November 4, 1939 The Trieste Conference results in Italy and her allies being forced by France and the UK to accept token concessions: some Dalmatian coast and islands for Italy, and strips of adjacent land to the borders of Hungary and Bulgaria; overall Yugoslavia will be spared from disassembly. The UK is able to demand that the concessions do not cut Yugoslav borders off from other nations in the area.
December 9, 1939 Yugoslavia requests admission to the Northern European Alliance. After heavy lobbying from the German government, the Alliance accepts them.

[Glen]

Kool, Kab. What precisely did you do?

[Kabraloth]

Merely rephrased stuff and added two pro-Esperanto lobbyists.
I guess it would be better if a native English speaker would look over it again, though.

[Glen]

Below is a list of OTL countries/territories from wikipedia. I'd like to go through the list alphabetically and get a feel for what we think has happened and/or should happen to those regions in the Weimar World timeline.

A
Abkhazia – Republic of Abkhazia[4]
Afghanistan – Islamic Republic of Afghanistan
Akrotiri and Dhekelia – Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia (UK overseas territory)
Åland – Åland Islands (Autonomous province of Finland)
Albania – Republic of Albania
Algeria – People's Democratic Republic of Algeria
American Samoa – Territory of American Samoa (US territory)
Andorra – Principality of Andorra
Angola – Republic of Angola
Anguilla (UK overseas territory)
Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina – Argentine Republic[10]
Armenia – Republic of Armenia
Aruba (Self-governing country in the Kingdom of the Netherlands)
Ascension Island (Dependency of the UK overseas territory of Saint Helena)
Australia – Commonwealth of Australia
Austria – Republic of Austria
Azerbaijan – Republic of Azerbaijan[11]

B
Bahamas, The – Commonwealth of The Bahamas
Bahrain – Kingdom of Bahrain
Bangladesh – People's Republic of Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus – Republic of Belarus
Belgium – Kingdom of Belgium
Belize
Benin – Republic of Benin
Bermuda (UK overseas territory)
Bhutan – Kingdom of Bhutan
Bolivia – Republic of Bolivia
Bosnia and Herzegovina[12]
Botswana – Republic of Botswana
Brazil – Federative Republic of Brazil
Brunei – Negara Brunei Darussalam
Bulgaria – Republic of Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
See Myanmar for Burma[1]
Burundi – Republic of Burundi

C
Cambodia – Kingdom of Cambodia
Cameroon – Republic of Cameroon
Canada[13]
Cape Verde – Republic of Cape Verde
Cayman Islands (UK overseas territory)
Central African Republic[14]
Chad – Republic of Chad
Chile – Republic of Chile
China, People's Republic of – People's Republic of China[15]
China, Republic of – Republic of China [16]
Christmas Island – Territory of Christmas Island (Australian overseas territory)
Cocos (Keeling) Islands – Territory of Cocos (Keeling) Islands (Australian overseas territory)
Colombia – Republic of Colombia
Comoros – Union of the Comoros
Congo, Democratic Republic of – Democratic Republic of the Congo[17]
Congo, Republic of – Republic of the Congo[18]
Cook Islands (Associated state of New Zealand)
Costa Rica – Republic of Costa Rica
Côte d'Ivoire – Republic of Côte d'Ivoire[1]
Croatia – Republic of Croatia
Cuba – Republic of Cuba
Cyprus – Republic of Cyprus[19]
Czech Republic[20]

D
Denmark – Kingdom of Denmark
See Akrotiri and Dhekelia for Dhekelia
Djibouti – Republic of Djibouti
Dominica – Commonwealth of Dominica
Dominican Republic

E
See Timor-Leste for East Timor[1]
Ecuador – Republic of Ecuador
Egypt – Arab Republic of Egypt
El Salvador – Republic of El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea – Republic of Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea – State of Eritrea
Estonia – Republic of Estonia
Ethiopia – Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia

F
Falkland Islands (UK overseas territory)[21]
Faroe Islands (Self-governing country in the Kingdom of Denmark)
Fiji – Republic of the Fiji Islands
Finland – Republic of Finland
France – French Republic
French Polynesia (French overseas community)

G
Gabon – Gabonese Republic
Gambia, The – Republic of The Gambia
Georgia[22]
Germany – Federal Republic of Germany
Ghana – Republic of Ghana
Gibraltar (UK overseas territory)
Greece – Hellenic Republic
Greenland (Self-governing country in the Kingdom of Denmark)
Grenada
Guam – Territory of Guam (US organized territory)
Guatemala – Republic of Guatemala
Guernsey – Bailiwick of Guernsey (British Crown dependency)[23]
Guinea – Republic of Guinea
Guinea-Bissau – Republic of Guinea-Bissau
Guyana – Co-operative Republic of Guyana

H
Haiti – Republic of Haiti
Honduras – Republic of Honduras
Hong Kong – Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China (Area of special sovereignty)[24]
Hungary – Republic of Hungary

I
Iceland – Republic of Iceland
India – Republic of India
Indonesia – Republic of Indonesia
Iran – Islamic Republic of Iran
Iraq – Republic of Iraq
Ireland[25]
Isle of Man (British Crown dependency)
Israel – State of Israel
Italy – Italian Republic
See Côte d'Ivoire for Ivory Coast[1]

J
Jamaica
Japan
Jersey – Bailiwick of Jersey (British Crown dependency)
Jordan – Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan

K
Kazakhstan – Republic of Kazakhstan
Kenya – Republic of Kenya
Kiribati – Republic of Kiribati
Korea, Democratic People's Republic of – Democratic People's Republic of Korea[26]
Korea, Republic of – Republic of Korea[27]
Kosovo – Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohia (Autonomous province of Serbia under UN protectorate)[28]
Kuwait – State of Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan – Kyrgyz Republic[29]

L
Laos – Lao People's Democratic Republic
Latvia – Republic of Latvia
Lebanon – Republic of Lebanon
Lesotho – Kingdom of Lesotho
Liberia – Republic of Liberia
Libya – Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
Liechtenstein – Principality of Liechtenstein
Lithuania – Republic of Lithuania
Luxembourg – Grand Duchy of Luxembourg

M
Macao – Macao Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China (Area of special sovereignty)[1][30]
Republic of Macedonia [31]
Madagascar – Republic of Madagascar
Malawi – Republic of Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives – Republic of Maldives
Mali – Republic of Mali
Malta – Republic of Malta
Marshall Islands – Republic of the Marshall Islands
Mauritania – Islamic Republic of Mauritania
Mauritius – Republic of Mauritius
Mayotte (French overseas community)
Mexico – United Mexican States
Micronesia – Federated States of Micronesia
Moldova – Republic of Moldova[32]
Monaco – Principality of Monaco
Mongolia
Montenegro – Republic of Montenegro
Montserrat (UK overseas territory)
Morocco – Kingdom of Morocco[33]
Mozambique – Republic of Mozambique
Myanmar – Union of Myanmar (also rendered as Burma[1])

N
Nagorno-Karabakh – Nagorno-Karabakh Republic[5]
Namibia – Republic of Namibia
Nauru – Republic of Nauru
Nepal – State of Nepal
Netherlands – Kingdom of the Netherlands[34]
Netherlands Antilles (Self-governing country in the Kingdom of the Netherlands)
New Caledonia – Territory of New Caledonia and Dependencies (French community sui generis)
New Zealand
Nicaragua – Republic of Nicaragua
Niger – Republic of Niger
Nigeria – Federal Republic of Nigeria
Niue (Associated state of New Zealand)
See Korea, Democratic People's Republic of for North Korea
Norfolk Island – Territory of Norfolk Island (Australian overseas territory)
Northern Cyprus – Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus[3]
Northern Mariana Islands – Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (US commonwealth)
Norway – Kingdom of Norway

O
Oman – Sultanate of Oman

P
Pakistan – Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Palau – Republic of Palau
Palestine – Proclaimed State of Palestine[35]
Panama – Republic of Panama
Papua New Guinea – Independent State of Papua New Guinea
Paraguay – Republic of Paraguay
Peru – Republic of Peru
Philippines – Republic of the Philippines
Pitcairn Islands – Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie, and Oeno Islands (UK overseas territory)
Poland – Republic of Poland
Portugal – Portuguese Republic
Pridnestrovie – Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic (also rendered as Transnistria[1])[6]
Puerto Rico – Commonwealth of Puerto Rico (US commonwealth)

Q
Qatar – State of Qatar

R
Romania
Russia – Russian Federation
Rwanda – Republic of Rwanda

S
Saint Helena (UK overseas territory)
Saint Kitts and Nevis – Federation of Saint Christopher and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Pierre and Miquelon (French overseas community)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Samoa – Independent State of Samoa
San Marino – Most Serene Republic of San Marino
São Tomé and Príncipe – Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe
Saudi Arabia – Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Senegal – Republic of Senegal
Serbia – Republic of Serbia[36]
Seychelles – Republic of Seychelles
Sierra Leone – Republic of Sierra Leone
Singapore – Republic of Singapore
Slovakia – Slovak Republic
Slovenia – Republic of Slovenia
Solomon Islands
Somalia[37]
Somaliland – Republic of Somaliland[7]
South Africa – Republic of South Africa
See Korea, Republic of for South Korea
South Ossetia – Republic of South Ossetia[8]
Spain – Kingdom of Spain
Sri Lanka – Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka
Sudan – Republic of the Sudan
Suriname – Republic of Suriname
Svalbard (Territory of Norway)[38]
Swaziland – Kingdom of Swaziland
Sweden – Kingdom of Sweden
Switzerland – Swiss Confederation
Syria – Syrian Arab Republic

T
See China, Republic of for the country that is commonly referred to as Taiwan
Tajikistan – Republic of Tajikistan
Tanzania – United Republic of Tanzania
Thailand – Kingdom of Thailand
Timor-Leste – Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste (also rendered as East Timor[1])
Togo – Togolese Republic
Tokelau (Overseas territory of New Zealand)
Tonga – Kingdom of Tonga
See Pridnestrovie for Transnistria[1]
Trinidad and Tobago – Republic of Trinidad and Tobago
Tristan da Cunha (Dependency of the UK overseas territory of Saint Helena)
Tunisia – Tunisian Republic
Turkey – Republic of Turkey
Turkmenistan
Turks and Caicos Islands (UK overseas territory)
Tuvalu

U
Uganda – Republic of Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom – United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
United States – United States of America
Uruguay – Eastern Republic of Uruguay
Uzbekistan – Republic of Uzbekistan

V
Vanuatu – Republic of Vanuatu
Vatican City – State of the Vatican City[39]
Venezuela – Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela
Vietnam – Socialist Republic of Vietnam
Virgin Islands, British – British Virgin Islands (UK overseas territory)
Virgin Islands, United States – United States Virgin Islands (US organized territory)

W
Wallis and Futuna – Territory of Wallis and Futuna Islands (French overseas community)
Western Sahara – Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic[40]

Y
Yemen – Republic of Yemen

Z
Zambia – Republic of Zambia
Zimbabwe – Republic of Zimbabwe

[Wendell]

There is potential here for vastly different outcomes in places than was the case IOTL.

[Glen]

January 18, 1983 - Intercine warfare in the Russian SSR as shifting loyalties and fractured commands continue to keep the situation confused in the Soviet Union. By this date, the Central Asian SSRs of Volga German, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan have declared independence from the increasingly erratic Soviet Union (the military and the Party both are claiming to represent the Soviet Union now, in opposition to one another). Iran, India, and Republican China are among the first nations to recognize these new republics.

Maybe add to this event the collapse of the Communist Government in Afghanistan following the pullout of Soviet troops?

[Glen]

I think Abkazian partisans would have sided with the USSR over Georgia and probably have been decimated by the Soviet Civil War, so I'm thinking no separate Abkazia in Weimar World.

[Glen]

Akrotiri and Dhekelia – Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia (UK overseas territory).

These depend on the question of Cyprus, which we never really settled.

Will Cyprus remain in the British Empire? Will it gain Dominion status? Or will it gain independence, and that puts the possibility of a Greek/Turk split in play?

[Glen]

Åland Island, pretty much OTL course.

[Glen]

January 29th 1946 The British mediated Treaty of Nice is signed. The terms were harsh but not as bad as expected. The French recovered French Somaliland and kept Libya and Sardinia. Albania was granted its independence.

So, this is the last timeline note about Albania. Would it be a republic, or would there be an attempt at restoration of the monarchy of King Zog?

We have implied that Albania joins the NEA, and I think that should be so, but we need to figure out who is taking control in Albania before setting that date (sometime in the last half of the 1940s).

[Wendell]

January 18, 1983 - Intercine warfare in the Russian SSR as shifting loyalties and fractured commands continue to keep the situation confused in the Soviet Union. By this date, the Central Asian SSRs of Volga German, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan have declared independence from the increasingly erratic Soviet Union (the military and the Party both are claiming to represent the Soviet Union now, in opposition to one another). Iran, India, and Republican China are among the first nations to recognize these new republics.

Maybe add to this event the collapse of the Communist Government in Afghanistan following the pullout of Soviet troops?

IOTL, it was called the RSFSR, not the RSSR. The word "Federative" appeared in the middle of the name, reflecting that republic's many "autonomous" units.

Akrotiri and Dhekelia – Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia (UK overseas territory).

These depend on the question of Cyprus, which we never really settled.

Will Cyprus remain in the British Empire? Will it gain Dominion status? Or will it gain independence, and that puts the possibility of a Greek/Turk split in play?
I like the idea of Cyprus as a dominion myself, possibly called the "Kingdom of Cyprus."

[Glen]

IOTL, it was called the RSFSR, not the RSSR. The word "Federative" appeared in the middle of the name, reflecting that republic's many "autonomous" units.

Point noted.


I like the idea of Cyprus as a dominion myself, possibly called the "Kingdom of Cyprus."

We might be able to swing Dominion status eventually for Cyprus, but not the Kingdom designation.

Could try for that in XXth Century, though.:D

[Glen]

July 8, 1952 - After years of talks between NEA members Greece and Turkey brokered by Britain, there is still no clear decision on a path for Cyprus. Britain announces that it will retain control of the island for the foreseeable future.

August 7, 1959 - Cyprus becomes a full member of the British Commonwealth. The day is marked by small riots from both Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

[Glen]

July 8, 1952 - After years of talks between NEA members Greece and Turkey brokered by Britain, there is still no clear decision on a path for Cyprus. Britain announces that it will retain control of the island for the foreseeable future.

August 7, 1959 - Cyprus becomes a full member of the British Commonwealth. The day is marked by small riots from both Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

[Glen]

February 15, 1946 - King Zog officially returns to Albania from exile. He begins to reform the government based on Western models.

[Glen]

July 8, 1948 - Portugal announces the formation of the Portuguese Union, comprised of Portugal, Angola, Mozambique, and Portugal's few other small colonies. It is modeled on the examples of the French Union and British Commonwealth.

August 20, 1975 - Portuguese Union forces crush the last of the insurgent factions in Angola after a decades long struggle.

September 3, 1989 - The member states of the French Union, after decades of arrogance from Paris, vote to eject France from the Union. They rename themselves L'Union des Nations. French remains the lingua franca of the Union.

September 8, 1989 - France threatens military action in retaliation for the outrage of their supposed ejection from the union.

September 9, 1989 - The League of Nations warns France that such an act would contravene International Law.

September 11, 1989 - France declares the crisis an internal one, and demands the League stay out of it.

September 12, 1989 - The British Commonwealth, NEA, and the Portuguese Union all call on the French to use peaceful means to resolve the issue.

September 13, 1989 - Rioting breaks out throughtout France as has not been seen in nearly a decade, primarily by French of ethnic origin from other parts of the now defunct Union. the rioters and protestors call for France to respect the autonomy of the members of the Union. They also fear the use of nuclear weapons, as was seen in the break-up of the Soviet Union.

...

October 4, 1962: 29 year old German artist Jürgen Kaider finishes his final painting "Lichter einer großen Stadt" before commiting suicide in his apartement in Vienna. Kaider's life and work became the inspiration for the postromantic art style, which tried to fuse romantic themes with the cold modern world. Like Kaider himself, this movement was largely a hay fire, although it paved the way for postmodernism and the neo-gothic architecture style.

March 17 1981: The US-American Band Electrolynx released their groundbreaking album Machinea, which kicked off the music styles later known as "Electrobeat", "Stutt", and "Base Beat".
Electrobeat is basically OTL's Electro Pop, Stutt is what you could call a bastardized version of Rap, where the song texts are stuttered, not spoken, and Base Beat is a music form which consists of pretty much only base beats, hence the name.

January 14, 1984: French sculptor Marcel Villeau presents his newest work "Vladivostok" (a sculpture which he destroyed) to the public. This is considered to be the beginning of Annihilism, an art form which propagates senseless destruction, which is seen as inevitable and thus beautiful.

Hey, are you forgetting all our Klezmer related stuff!:rolleyes:



Okay.



Fair enough.



Intereting. But will give rise to a lot of protest.

March 12, 1984 - Russian emigree's stage a month long protest in Paris against the artwork of Marcel Villeau, especially against his annihilistic work, Vladivostok, which they consider disrespectful to the nuclear tragedy.

All of the one entry? ;)


That's a great addition!

September 01, 1985 - After long consideration, the French parliament dropped a proposed law which would make the new art style of annihilism illegal. The law was proposed by a group of Russian and Vietnamese emigrants who consider the art style both disrespectful to human suffering and encouraging terroristic activities.

Lobbied. I meant lobbied, not proposed, as these groups have of course no direct access to lawmaking. And now I can't edit it anymore. :(

Kabraloth, one other addition/change to the maps for now.

October 9, 1993 Iran, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, and Azerbaijan form the Turko-Aryan League, a trade association.

So those nations should be shown from 1993 on as a different color from the rest of them.

I need to add Turkmenistan to that list.

Sorry about this, but I just noticed...Tibet should be part of the Republic of China, I believe.

I don't see this one addressed either, but I think Peru and Chile at least would be members of PACPA.

Maybe Mexico as well.

Another suggestion: The Andean Alliance/Andean Pact (just what is it called?) is last mentioned in 1962 after fighting a war with US assistance. This would be a good time for them to join up with PACPA, imo (US sponsorship and everthing).

Suggestion: May 21st 1963 - Peru and Chile formally end the Andean Pact as both nations join PACPA. With increasing cooperation between the PACPA member nations, the USA considers the admission of these two countries both as a diplomatic victory and strong warning against further communist aggression in the Pacific Region and South America.

I agree, but don't end the Andean Pact per se, just have them join PACPA. PACPA is a bit more of an economic than military organization (though there are shades of that).

I wonder what Mexico is doing through all of this?

Also, IIRC, Canada should have joint PACPA/Commonwealth membership?

Fine.
May 21st 1963 - Peru and Chile formally join PACPA under the sponsorship of the USA. With increasing cooperation between the PACPA member nations, the USA considers the admission of the Andean Pact countries both as a diplomatic victory and strong warning against further communist aggression in the Pacific Region and South America.


March 35th 1995 - President Sancho Pansa of Mexico declares the "national reawakening", after what has become known as "the long snooze" (1919-1995). Civil unrest ensues, as several Mexicans feel that they should be given "just five more minutes".


Not in the writeup yet, as far as I can see.

Hmmm. Konrad Zuse would definitely be born before our POD, so he's going to be able to develop computing in a peaceful Germany, and the Brits and Americans are as likely to pick up on it.

How can we incorporate this into the rest of our computing items?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse

Okay, fair enough. You got me there!

I'm guessing Italy lost their permanent seat after Ethiopia and the Tunisian War.

France Britain and Japan should have worked fine ITTL for quite a while.

The US probably got Italy's seat when they joined up.

I think they'd almost have to give Germany a permanent seat at some point....

(Meant to say that it had less power OTL. Mea culpa.)

OTL Germany joined in 1926 and became a permanent member on 8 September of that year. I see no reason to change that.

Italy widthdrew in 1937 (one year after Abyssinia). The Abyssinia crisis was a flop and a massive weakening of the LoN because the non-member USA declared that it would not abide by the LoN weapons sanction and continued to trade with Italy. When the sanctions were lifted in 1936, they were considered useless.

The only one who was kicked out was the USSR, for invading Finland.

What I think could make the LoN more powerful:
1) Constant council meetings, like the UN. I could see this as early as shortly after the 1943 Greek crisis.
2) A designated military, however weak it is. While it would still be the military of member nations, it would be under a LoN umbrella (kinda like the blue helmets). Problem OTL was that, if Britain and France were not interesting in helping with their armies and navies, nobody did anything.
Some weaker members could pay off their membership fee by providing soldiers, for example. I don't know if this is feasible, however. Maybe if it is a very limited military (e.g. 200,000 men, no equipment heavier than a jeep) for better police work.
3) The USA not deliberatly weakening the LoN at this critical moment when a permanent member and a Great Power was condemned and put under sanctions.


Hmm.. events?

December 11, 1946 - After the Axis war has just ended and communist insurgents are creating unrest in many countries (the most obvious being China), the first significant change in the League of Nations is accepted by the Assembly (which consists of all member states): from now on, the Council will be in constant meeting, as a diplomatical front and coordination hub for multinational actions.

November 4, 1958 - The League of Nations' great reform is enacted - a revised charter is agreed upon by which sanction of the League are now legally binding (although even in the early 21st century, not all member nations have ratified this), the Council is strenghtened (it consists of 10 constant members and 5 changing observers with voting rights), and the commissions are given more founding.

(And because I am on a roll.)

February 11, 1969 - The League of Nation commissions of international cooperation and education proudly announce that one quarter of the generation born after the Great War is fluent in Esperanto, with those born after 1950 being a major contributing factor.

I think this one makes sense.



This one not as certain. Ten permanent members? Who?



Sorry, but I don't buy it. Why is Esperanto getting this much support at this level? I can see maybe at best 10% by 1969 knowing it as a second language...with fluency being questionable.

I think you'll find its best use will be in programming...:eek: ;)

France, Britain, Italy, Germany, Japan, USA, USSR (booted out temporarily), China, Turkey, India.


Because it got that much support OTL - the LoN proposed to its member nations that it be implemented as second language in schools (became irrelevant after the US-centric end of WW2). TTL, it has been creeping up as the working language of the LoN, which turned it into the language of diplomats, which gave it the kick it never got OTL.
And the most obvious: one of the two lost generations of Esperanto speakers did not get almost completely wiped out as in OTL. Many more to promote, many more to use it.


Which makes it useful for geeks and you know how geeks are, hm?

France Britain Germany Japan USA China in 1958, okay.

Italy USSR Turkey India no, won't happen IMO.

The USSR isn't booted out temporarily ITTL IIRC, instead they withdraw and stay out.

Italy is no longer of a status to warrant a permanent seat.

Turkey ITTL never was.

India is still too much part of the British Empire, not going to get a seat at this point in time.



It may be a second language available at schools, but unless they make it mandatory (which I don't see) its not going to be heavily attended. More people will take it in college (with the accompanying lack of fluency), especially those interested in diplomacy as you noted.

Like I said, 10%.



Yes, so when the computer revolution gets going, the popularity of Esperanto might go up, but not in the year you've got it that high. It might even rise to the level of becoming a required class sometime in the early 21st century, though still not starting in the earliest years, so still most people won't be particularly fluent in speaking it, though many more will know how to write it. In fact, it may become the default language of TTL's internet, not just its code.

Fine. How's that?

November 4, 1958 - The League of Nations' great reform is enacted - a revised charter is agreed upon by which sanction of the League are now legally binding (although even in the early 21st century, not all member nations have ratified this), the Council is strenghtened (it now consists of 6 constant members - France, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, the USA, and China - and 6 changing non-permanent members), and the commissions are given more founding.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the spread of Esperanto (I still think you dismiss how much damage has been done to it with WW2 too lightly), so I will not bring it up again.

Gathering together some of our previous discussions.

[Wendell]

July 8, 1952 - After years of talks between NEA members Greece and Turkey brokered by Britain, there is still no clear decision on a path for Cyprus. Britain announces that it will retain control of the island for the foreseeable future.

August 7, 1959 - Cyprus becomes a full member of the British Commonwealth. The day is marked by small riots from both Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

Might this Cyprus have only English as its official language, so not to show bias towards either the Greeks or the Turks?

[Glen]

Might this Cyprus have only English as its official language, so not to show bias towards either the Greeks or the Turks?

Doubtful as the sole language, but it could become the default linga franca.

[Kabraloth]

Cyprus should get Esperanto as official language. :D

[Glen]

Cyprus should get Esperanto as official language. :D

Very funny. No, English before Esperanto here, I'm afraid.

However, I have been toying with a timeline which might be favorable to Esperanto....

[Wendell]

Doubtful as the sole language, but it could become the default linga franca.

Probably Greek, Turkish, and English would all be official, but English would seem to me to be the least controversial choice.

[Glen]

Bumpity bump bump

[Kabraloth]

beer
under
my
pillow


And how longer do we want to wait for a cleanup that all of us are too lazy or too occupied to do? :(

[Glen]

beer
under
my
pillow


And how longer do we want to wait for a cleanup that all of us are too lazy or too occupied to do? :(

Bump....

....Good Question. Maybe go ahead and post what we have to the Timelines and Scenarios thread, and then an Expanded Director's Cut when we get around to it?

[Kabraloth]

Alright. I'll put the stuff together and try to submit it there tomorrow. I suggest when it is posted that we start a new thread "Weimar World V2" or something, because I think the over thousand replies discourage others from participating.

[Glen]

Alright. I'll put the stuff together and try to submit it there tomorrow. I suggest when it is posted that we start a new thread "Weimar World V2" or something, because I think the over thousand replies discourage others from participating.

I can submit most of the posts on 'Weimar World Cliffnotes' as a new submission. Don't worry about it, I'll take care of it.

I suggest after that that the natural place to continue work would be at the Weimar World Cliffnotes thread, which I can rename if desired.

[Glen]

And Weimar World joins the ranks of Timelines and Scenarios.

However, we can always add to it, so if you have ideas, don't stop them coming.

Also, I think it may be time to begin our own Tales of the Weimar World for those who wish to tell stories set in the Weimar World timeline.

[Kabraloth]

Did you include the cleanups from the previous pages? I think the Cliffnotes didn't have those.

[Glen]

Did you include the cleanups from the previous pages? I think the Cliffnotes didn't have those.

Not certain. Have to check. I have mod powers so we can fix that easily enough.

If someone feels ambitious, they can use the search thread function to see if the stuff below got in or not, and then post a list here of things that need to be put in.

[Kabraloth]

Not certain. Have to check. I have mod powers so we can fix that easily enough.

If someone feels ambitious, they can use the search thread function to see if the stuff below got in or not, and then post a list here of things that need to be put in.
'k. I guess I will do that - as soon as the stuff appears in the T&S forum.

[Glen]

'k. I guess I will do that - as soon as the stuff appears in the T&S forum.

It's already there, look on the second page of T&S. Since I copied the posts, it shows up as older.

[Kabraloth]

It's already there, look on the second page of T&S. Since I copied the posts, it shows up as older.
Way to make it non-noticable. :(

And that's the old version of the events. At least the 20s (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=715167&postcount=1576) and 30s (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=895670&postcount=1581) can be copied over from my posts, if there's no problems with them.

[Glen]

Way to make it non-noticable. :(

And that's the old version of the events. At least the 20s (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=715167&postcount=1576) and 30s (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=895670&postcount=1581) can be copied over from my posts, if there's no problems with them.

Done and Done. See if what I do next is more 'visible'.

[Kabraloth]

Thumbs up! :)

[Glen]

Note that I believe I have now put in all the last changes suggested and accepted but missing from the cliffnotes.

Someone please do double check me on that.

[Tizoc]

Okay, I've just read the TL in T&S forum. I have to say there were a number of things in naval part of French-Italian war in 1940s that should been different:
1. Ships names (I know its ATL, but I think names would go as per OTL)
a) battlecruiser Bretagne - sorry, in OTL Bretagne was a battleship - commissioned in 1915, sunk in 1940. In OTL battlecruisers were Dunkerque (in line 1937) and Strasbourg (in line 1938)
b) carrier Bearn - at the start of WW2 was used only for training. Though there were 2 new carriers under construction: Joffre (laid down 1938) and Painleve (laid down in 1939) - as the time of a war they should been completed.
2. Personally suprises me the lack of raids and naval bombardments. In OTL France and Italy built lots of ships designed for hit-and-run tactics - like French super-destroyers (i.e. the fastest destroyer of all time - Le Terrible - 45,1 knots at trials)

[Glen]

Okay, I've just read the TL in T&S forum. I have to say there were a number of things in naval part of French-Italian war in 1940s that should been different:
1. Ships names (I know its ATL, but I think names would go as per OTL)
a) battlecruiser Bretagne - sorry, in OTL Bretagne was a battleship - commissioned in 1915, sunk in 1940. In OTL battlecruisers were Dunkerque (in line 1937) and Strasbourg (in line 1938)
b) carrier Bearn - at the start of WW2 was used only for training. Though there were 2 new carriers under construction: Joffre (laid down 1938) and Painleve (laid down in 1939) - as the time of a war they should been completed.
2. Personally suprises me the lack of raids and naval bombardments. In OTL France and Italy built lots of ships designed for hit-and-run tactics - like French super-destroyers (i.e. the fastest destroyer of all time - Le Terrible - 45,1 knots at trials)

Tizoc,

Thank you for your comments and for ready Weimar World.

I can not say for certain why those ship names and designations were used, they were written for the timeline by perdedor99.

However, I would be interested in making changes that don't change the thrust of the timeline but would make it more accurate to those earlier times. If you would be willing to edit those events to make the names and the tactics more in keeping with OTL, while keeping the outcomes, I'd be honored to make those changes.

[Glen]

Well, still buried more or less at work, but less so at the moment.

1) Anyone have some good additional items tieing up loose ends in the Weimar World timeline, fleshing out the latter years of the timeline, etc.?

2) Anyone interested in writing stories set in the Weimar World timeline? If so, let me know here, or PM me.

[Dr. Nodelescu]

Estimating Weimar World to be one of the crownjuwels of AH.com (at least a Mont Blanc if you see the Chaos TL as a Mount Everest), I had quite a few ideas. Many may just affect the cosmetics of maps, others severely modify things.
First of all, further develop chains that abrupted at any decade. The aftermath e. g. of the South African War ITTL was that Dominion status was removed to end apartheid, that the Indians were (re-?)integrated virtually immediately into state and society, but the Negroes had to wait some ten or fifteen years. No aftermath after period Having a racially integrated society, ZA might regain Dominion status by the late 1970s. OTL Commonwealth excluded ZA in 1961 and let them rejoin in 1994 when majority rule took place. BTW, Nelson Mandela is born 1918, before the POD.
Make Choson the ATL's Far East Kosovo. A spectacular secession and the interesting reapproach between north and south.
Rechristen the NEA into something like Stettin League or similar. A Baltic defense might well be called an NEA, but it's already silly to call it so if you have landlocked Czechoslovakia as a founding member and it definitely becomes silly when Yugoslavia and even Greece and Turkey join.
Describe the melancholics of the French joining united Europe. I know that the idea has been dismissed in the official TL, but if the French metropolis gets ejected from their imperial roomshare in the 1980's, that process of reorientation might be inevitable. The French as the biggest Eurosceptics, but having no alternative to sacrifice Corsica and Sardinia, join a united currency etc. would be quite interesting. The rest of Western Europe not in the club should join as well (Switzerland might remain in ATL like in OTL).
The economics of European countries (http://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=82422&highlight=European+economics) without the Iron Curtain (at least were it stood IOTL). The Czechs having problems with Belgian guest workers?
Scenes of a democracy: Jewish-Silesian politician talking about his and two other center-right partys' upcoming merger and why he finds it harder and harder to find kosher food in Breslau.
Tons of other stuff...

[Glen]

[LEFT]Estimating Weimar World to be one of the crownjuwels of AH.com (at least a Mont Blanc if you see the Chaos TL as a Mount Everest), I had quite a few ideas. Many may just affect the cosmetics of maps, others severely modify things.

Thanks for the complements, and the suggestions.


First of all, further develop chains that abrupted at any decade. The aftermath e. g. of the South African War ITTL was that Dominion status was removed to end apartheid, that the Indians were (re-?)integrated virtually immediately into state and society, but the Negroes had to wait some ten or fifteen years. No aftermath after period Having a racially integrated society, ZA might regain Dominion status by the late 1970s. OTL Commonwealth excluded ZA in 1961 and let them rejoin in 1994 when majority rule took place. BTW, Nelson Mandela is born 1918, before the POD.

You are absolutely right that this needs to be developed further. I wonder who they'd go with the the UK/Indian split? Depends on how things develop. Probably India though as the majority would look upon them as liberators. I could see a white terrorist organization or three in that region, btw.

So, let's see you write some events and we'll get them in!

Make Choson the ATL's Far East Kosovo. A spectacular secession and the interesting reapproach between north and south.

Huh? I don't quite get where you're going with this. Could you elaborate?

Rechristen the NEA into something like Stettin League or similar. A Baltic defense might well be called an NEA, but it's already silly to call it so if you have landlocked Czechoslovakia as a founding member and it definitely becomes silly when Yugoslavia and even Greece and Turkey join.

It's as silly as OTL's North Atlantic Treaty Organization. NEA stays, I'm afraid.

Describe the melancholics of the French joining united Europe. I know that the idea has been dismissed in the official TL, but if the French metropolis gets ejected from their imperial roomshare in the 1980's, that process of reorientation might be inevitable. The French as the biggest Eurosceptics, but having no alternative to sacrifice Corsica and Sardinia, join a united currency etc. would be quite interesting. The rest of Western Europe not in the club should join as well (Switzerland might remain in ATL like in OTL).

I don't know about this. The French still have a lot of economic ties with their former Union, and they still have significant influence in the Lowlands and Switzerland. I can see them staying out for quite some time. I would not be opposed, however, to you or anyone else writing some events moving France closer and closer to united Europe, just so long as they don't contradict already existing events (and maps), and just so long as they don't join before the end of the timeline.

PS - I've been pondering a 'Weimar World, the Next 100 Years" extension of the timeline, so you might be setting the stage for some new events for that timeline....

The economics of European countries (http://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=82422&highlight=European+economics) without the Iron Curtain (at least were it stood IOTL). The Czechs having problems with Belgian guest workers?

Interesting thought....elaborate.

Scenes of a democracy: Jewish-Silesian politician talking about his and two other center-right partys' upcoming merger and why he finds it harder and harder to find kosher food in Breslau.

You know, I have been asking for people interested in writing stories set in Weimar World. If you'd like to write a little story highlighting such things, I'll check it for continuity and it can be the first of the Tales of Weimar World...

Tons of other stuff...

Bring it on!

[Dr. Nodelescu]

You are absolutely right that this needs to be developed further. I wonder who they'd go with the UK/Indian split? Depends on how things develop. Probably India though as the majority would look upon them as liberators. I could see a white terrorist organization or three in that region, btw.

So, let's see you write some events and we'll get them in!
It was pretty hard to see the development of specific aspects as Weimar World is largely written like a CV and three fourths of the timeline discussion deals with the first thirty years (or maybe even two thirds with the first twenty years). That split you talk of only reminds me of the New Britain timeline, but that larger home rule and a shift of power towards a bigger country within the structure becomes inevitable is out of debate for me. If you don't want the British Empire to become a Commonwealth as untight as that of OTL but want to have that devolution spirit intact, you may even think of handing over colonies to locally near dominions. The Australian Commonwealth received Papua New Guniea from the British metropole virtually after its foundation. You may do the same to most of Southern Africa as of the late 20th century, at least receiving Namibia and Rhodesia. A racially desegregated by the late 1970s.

Huh? I don't quite get where you're going with this. Could you elaborate?
ATL Japan = OTL Serbia
ATL South Korea = OTL Kosovo (or „North Albania“)
ATL North Korea = OTL Albania (or „South Albania“)


The relatively thin 1990's deal, among other things, about protests for Choson independence. Koreans of the South want to get rid of the Japanese, but reunification with the North is somehow disaccelerated due to human rights violations up there, at least in public opinion. It might seem plausible that the Americans would have forced the Japanese to grant substantial autonomy to their Korean holdings after the Pacific War if Japan really would have been allowed to keep it. I might see that at one point the people of the Choson province unilateraly declare their independence, just like Kosovo did from Serbia in OTL recently, though not with the same bloodbath.


I might even see less reluctancy from Japan to Choson recession ITTL than the reluctancy Serbia is showing to Cosovar secession IOTL, maybe because the Japanese sweared themselves to be an extremely civilized nation and want to literally save their face compared to the French who lived to see some kind of counter-secession with the French Union expelling them. And because Korea isn't the myth of a cradle of nation that Kosovo is to Serbia.


When the Choson province becomes independent, the old question of reuniting the two Koreas will be asked again. Reunification would be seen as an essentially good idea, but it's obvious that the fifty or maybe sixty years of division produced some kind of alienation which is at least as severe as that of the two Germanies IOTL, though that alienation among Koreans may not be that extreme ITTL as IOTL. And yes, this alienation IOTL also happened to the Albanian nation where Albania proper also has experienced decades of Stalinism. These parallels are absolutely deliberate.

It's as silly as OTL's North Atlantic Treaty Organization. NEA stays, I'm afraid.
The Med is a side arm of the Atlantic to me, north of Africa and therefore quite north of the Equator and any other thinkable line that could be thought of to be the dividing ling between a Northern and Southern. Even if you don't count the Arctic Ocean to be a marginal sea of the Atlantic, even having Russia in the NATO wouldn't make the name ridiculous as long as St. Petersburg remains Russian territory, though definitely being a borderline case.


BTW, as the 1960's show forms of economic co-operation among the NEA members, there might be different names for the defense pillar (the classic NEA) and the economic pillar (EEC or similar). As there already is a European Federation as of 2004 ITTL, that would match perfectly into the genuine pattern of European integration ITTL. OTL European Union has an even more incomprehensible pattern of pillars than the European Federation of Weimar World.

I don't know about this. The French still have a lot of economic ties with their former Union, and they still have significant influence in the Lowlands and Switzerland. I can see them staying out for quite some time. I would not be opposed, however, to you or anyone else writing some events moving France closer and closer to united Europe, just so long as they don't contradict already existing events (and maps), and just so long as they don't join before the end of the timeline.

PS - I've been pondering a 'Weimar World, the Next 100 Years" extension of the timeline, so you might be setting the stage for some new events for that timeline....
IIRC it's still the British and the French that rule the oil industry in Africa IOTL. Lowlands are in united Europe ITTL since the 1940's, though the Belgium story might still get fleshed out as the redeployment of LoN soldiers to Belgium only insufficiently explains what kind of place Belgium has become since the Bloody Monday in 1981. It's definitely a field to work on.

Interesting thought....elaborate.


You know, I have been asking for people interested in writing stories set in Weimar World. If you'd like to write a little story highlighting such things, I'll check it for continuity and it can be the first of the Tales of Weimar World...


Bring it on!
Fields to work on...
BTW, maps don't change at all after the 1990's.

[Dr. Nodelescu]

I'm working on a list of German chancellors from 1940 on. Aware of the fact that I cannot fundamentally change the list of presidents as I'd like to (though after L-V the names of the presidents and chancellors are never explicitly mentioned, see the ATL Munich incident), there is a live-saving trigger for my thoughts in the semi-presidential system of the Weimar Republic that most of us rather know from the OTL Fifth French Republic: the possibilty of cohabition.

Some ideas for SPD chancellors in the 1940s and 1950s:
Julius Leber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Leber) (b. 1891, SPD right-wing, very likely in the 1940s,
IOTL retreated from Reichswehr after Kapp Putsch, SPD's defense expert, died in resistence and was meant to become Minister of the Interior of a provisional Reich government after a successful 1944-7-20 assassination)
Kurt Schumacher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Schumacher) (b. 1895, mainstream SPD, surprisingly unlikely,
IOTL SPD whip of the last freely elected Reichstag at a very young age, lost his right arm in WWI in the first war winter, hardly survived several KZs, post-war SPD chief and 1949 chancellor contestant, might survive longer than IOTL as having no burden of KZs)
Erich Ollenhauer (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Ollenhauer) (b. 1901, mainstream SPD, rather the 1950s than the 1940s,
IOTL he was in exile and did better than Schumacher, though not absolutely easy, with transforming the SPD from a pure worker party to a "popular party")

This is to be my idea of a list of Presidents and Chancellors of Germany

Year: President/Chancellor
1940 L-V/Adenauer (as canon)
1944 L-V/Leber [1]
1947 Braun/Leber
1951 Braun/Ollenhauer [2]
1954 Braun/Ollenhauer
1955 Adenauer/ random right-wing [3]
1959 Adenauer/ random right-wing
1962 Erhard/ random right-wing
1966 Erhard/ random right-wing or caretaker
1969 Frahm/ random left-wing [4]
1973 Frahm/ random anybody
1976 Frahm/ random left-wing [5]
1981
1986
1991
1996
2001
2006
2011 (your random Jewish Reichspräsident)

[1] I though that having an SPD chancellor as a footstep for an SPD president would be quite plausible, but I thought not to name Braun as chancellor as he might rather appeal to become president directly from his Prussian political past. Leber as a president is too daring IMO, though appealable. As I said, Leber was well respected even in the right.

[2] You might even dismiss Ollenhauer as of 1951 and wait until 1954 with him.

[3a] You might even avoid Braun dying in presidency by simply not standig for vote in 1954, allowing Adenauer to succeed in 1954. Cheering the SPD by re-election and then disposing them the year after is quite dubious to me.

[3b] Though there are many possible chancellors, I prefer 1915-born Franz Josef Strauß (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Josef_Strauss). His same-named father was in the BVP (Bavarian Center apostacy) and rejected repeated offers to join the Nazi party as Strauß jr. said, himself was IOTL a German Rab Burton in the sense that he was nearly everything but Federal Chancellor, he led the federal resorts of Defense and Finance under Adenauer and was Bavarian minister president from 1978 onwards and failed to become chancellor after the 1980 elections against Helmut Schmidt.

[4] I thought that Erhard was a brillant economist while not being that much of a brilliant leader. Adenauer tried to bully Erhard off from succeding him a fell after the FDP in his 1963-66 cabinet refused to raise the taxes resulting in the Kiesinger caretaker government of 1966-69. I thought that ITTL he would similarly fall over a reluctance against making social benevolences. Furthermore, a less youthful Brandt/Frahm of 1976 might not be as appealing as that of 1969. I also thought that the internationalist Brandt/Frahm would be a more credible opponent of intolerant. Though Erhard would of course show his distaste for the 1972 Munich aftermath riots as well, people would rather obey a Brandt/Frahm to these words than they would obey an Erhard.

[5] I thought that a semi-presidential democracy of an age similar to the OTL French Fifth Republic as of 2000 might see a similar move: End all the problems with the cohabitions and the premature dissolutions of Reichstag due to that routine. Though five-year-terms weren't really native to Germany except of OTL state parliaments in Germany, five years might be seen as a more sensible term for a presidency than five years anywany and the Reichstag serving five instead of four years (which it did in the Kaiserrich von 1888 till its end) would be a logical consequence. That's why I didn't specify the affiliation of the Chancellor of 1973 by now.

[Glen]

Wow! Really some great work there, Dr. Nodelescu. I'd like to hear some commentary from others before we start editing into the timeline, but I guarantee that I will be working a lot of these in. My own commentary will have to wait a bit as I'm tied up at work, but please do continue to elaborate on the ideas. I'd especially like it if we could get some ATL backstory for your proposed Reich leaders, ie, what was their ATL rise to power like in Weimar World....

[Glen]

Anyone have any comment about the suggestions below? If not, I will be looking in the next few days to edit in some of them.

[Glen]

Bumping this for my own reference.

[Dr. Nodelescu]

Just for info: Today is the 90th anniversary of the Weimar national assembly's constituting summit. Our German foreign minister Steinmeier (yes, IOTL) also held a speech there in Weimar. Talking about how necessary it is for democracy to be defended and invented at every time and that it doesn't regret neglection. They're making an exhibition there, trying to get the focus away from "Weimar as failure" to "Weimar as a beginning".

[Glen]

Just for info: Today is the 90th anniversary of the Weimar national assembly's constituting summit. Our German foreign minister Steinmeier (yes, IOTL) also held a speech there in Weimar. Talking about how necessary it is for democracy to be defended and invented at every time and that it doesn't regret neglection. They're making an exhibition there, trying to get the focus away from "Weimar as failure" to "Weimar as a beginning".

Thanks for the update.

[Glen]

I Wordled Weimar World.

"If you use a screen-capture or other image representation of the Wordle on this page, you must attribute the image to http://www.wordle.net/. Images of Wordles are licensed Creative Commons License."

[Dr. Nodelescu]

As I did in the Chaos TL, I'll do here as well. I picked up the notion of some "Marcel Villeau" ITTL that will definitely not have existed in our lifetime. I wrote an interview about him:


L'historie de l'annihilisme
ou en autres mots
une serie des bâtiments du terreur
(The history of annihilism – or in other words – a series of buildings of fear)


(Source: Blickpunkt 41/1997, published on 1997-10-9)


Page 265 (last page), category “Retrospect”




What's up with... Marcel Villeau?


Marcel Villeau, born 1952 in Angoulême, Poitou region of France, is to this date best known for his provocative artwork series “Bâtiments Du Désastre” published in 1984, paving the way for the new art style of annihilism. Despite massive campaigns, the series got sold in millions and is further extended with any new incident. After “Batidesa” Villeau ascended to a career as an actor, the last one being “The Fabulous World of Natalie Pétain” playing the role of Natalie's father Jean-Marie.


Blickpunkt: Mr. Villeau, do you dare to walk down the street without bodyguards nowadays again?


Villeau: Days have become calmer the last years. I no longer need to be afraid of hidden conspirators trying to hit me. Not that I earnestly had to fear for my life, except for that sniper back in 1985 right after the non-passage of the anti-annihilist legislation, but there were quite a lot of people just waiting for hitting me with eggs and overripe tomatoes at least.


Blickpunkt: And you no longer fear the fruit bashing anymore?


Villeau: No, I don't. The 1990s have proved to be calmer, at least for the skin of mine. Even if I didn't reconcile with the enemies of my work, they now show a little respect for my work. Mr Ilyushin, who used to lead the “Vladivostok” protests back then, even asked me if he could still obtain an example of my new Zhongghou Commerce Towers replica. Isn't it ironic?


Blickpunkt: True, it is. But how did you get making sculptures of destoyed places? Rumours say that you had the idea quite a time before the Soviet Civil War.


Villeau: Back in 1975, I had a dinner with Minoru Yamasaki in New Orleans and...


Blickpunt: Yamasiki, wasn't he...?


Villeau: Yes, he's that famous brutalist architect whose buildings are disputed to survive very long. I came to the US to find some inspiration in old Louisianian flair. We had some intense talk about the things that were still going on there. The theatre about the Sanger League, recent processes against lynchers, and then he came up with the death of a stepchild project of him, Pruitt-Igoe.


Blickpunkt: Pruitt-Igoe, the stone-made liquidation of technocratic civil engineering?


Villeau: I'd rather call it a first sod turned in the climax of technocracy in civil engineering that led to its ultimate nadir.


Blickpunkt: The climax seeding the nadir? You sound so philosophical saying this as if it weren't really dead.


Villeau: True, they've been speaking about urban renewal for more than thirty years now, but the point is that it still exists. No disrespect to monumental protection, but nobody wants to live in a museum, even if it's nice to watch. And the urban renewal thing that's happening here, you call it gentrification, if I remember correctly, could only take place because the technocratic approach released the old quarters from the burdens of too many people. Otherwise there couldn't have gone poor students into these houses in the middle of the cities. Only because these shelters were abandoned, they could give ground to new seed.


Blickpunkt: And nadir therefore seeded the climax?


Villeau: Absolutely. If you like to call it this way, fine. Though I admit these thoughts first came up later. As I said, Yamasaki and I were in New Orleans and told me about his most futile project. He talked about Pruitt-Igoe, built for the purpose of social housing. And how the whites fled the place as soon as possible while the blacks remained there having nowhere else to go, and how the whole spiral turns that deep down that the only option left to stop it was to eliminate what he created in the first place.


Blickpunkt: That's nothing new, you're not the reason Pruitt-Igoe became prominent.


Villeau: For itself, I'm indeed not to blame for the infame. But in a way it became the seed for Vladivostok. I reminded that we also had these newly constructed residential skycrapers. Sure, de Gaulle was right when he said that we needed more children and that he pushed couples to have more children after the Depression than they were expected to have anyway. Therefore they built these villes nouvelles. But at the time I had a word with Yamasiki, the families that were supposed to live in this kind of shelter had already come to settle down the usual suburban way. First came the Piéd-Noirs, Frenchmen from the other side of the Med afraid of native sabotage, then came the Vietnamese, then came the Arabs and Africans, and with every new wave coming in, the preceding folks were moving out. In the end, when Yamasaki told me about this stuff, I became frightened of what the banlieue could become. Everybody knew about them, but nobody ever cared about them. They became a scapegoat and the ultimate unexample to teach discipline to your children. If you don't follow the rules, you'll become one of them, do you really want that? The kind of shelter you'll find in the Parisian banlieue has a lot in common with Pruitt-Igoe. It's not only not nice, it's that all the nasty problems of a city are purposefully stockpiled there and are hoped to be somehow withered. And that it of course will not have a chance for revitalization, I mean, they are not in any central location away, unlike the old quarters. I already saw these settlements on fire in my mind.


Blickpunkt: But indeed it still took another blow for you to go public. Why then and not earlier?


Villeau: Ordinary people, if they make a decent living and especially if they have little enough sorrows to engange in cultural issues, are happy to afford a blind eye on these issues and take it for granted soly when they live in another quarter and think that these physically near problems were so many light years away. The nuking of Vladivostok was therefore both a consequence and a subversion for my thoughts about the disadvantaged. On the one hand, Vladivostok, like the banlieue on a smaller scale, is in the periphery of its country. If you think of Russia, you think of Moscow and Saint Peterburg, but not of an outpost in the Far East. More and more people landed there with the decades, the quarter of a globe away from the motherland, nothing better to provide for a frontier spirit. On the other hand, nuking a whole city is not just an issue about drowning a social hotspot in some neighborhood, but affects anyone who lives in a range of a diverse social room that makes a city. So in the end, everyone in Vladivostok became kind of an Arab during the Civil War, especially after secession.


Blickpunkt: If we look at the “Vladivostok” sculpture, we come to see a wedge stuck in a faceless block of apartments at the mouth of a harbor. If you don't know what it refers too, you could think that you could essentially have done the same with the blocks of the banlieue.


Villeau: But that's the difference. Would anybody have cared about the banlieue set on fire? Most people wouldn't, they'd just think they were happy enough not to have to do their living there and ask what on earth Marcel Villeau wants with his another social critics, at least until the 89 riots. What these people love about art is that it's educative, which your thought child would have been in an inconvient and pitifully ignorable way. What they hate about it is that it's expressive, that it makes a point on an issue, which is even more inconvenient, outright political. What do you think why Vienna burnt when the Germans came to enforce Anschluss? Adolf Hitler was an artist and artsy Vienna was more than a viable place to inscene the mentality that when yourself can't rule a realm, nobody else shall be able to do so either.


Blickpunkt: But this didn't answer my question.


Villeau: It did and it didn't at the same time. It did because I told you why I didn't make a sculpture about modern slums in the rich world. What I haven't answered, I'll answer you now. Vladivostok was something that nobody could ignore, especially not those who fled to France from misery. When they heard about my sculpture, they didn't think of concrete cracked by a nail with a hammer, they saw themselves on fire, and the comrades of their community on fire, or more precisely, what was left of these communities. This is why art has to be free, everything else is censorship. I still thank Palais Bourbon for restraining from forbidding art when it would have been most severe. It wasn't a victory for me, it was a victory for democracy and open expression of thoughts. And my message.


Blickpunkt: People said that you insisted on no personal protection. People said that's the crucial point why the assassination attempt in 1985 was short of being successful.


Villeau: Well, but remind thoroughly when I say, that they have to be successful only once to succeed while I have to be successful all the time to survive. I thought that personal protection would just attract too much attention and to much human weed to be really desirable. And sniping is of course the only feasible way to even have a chance on killing a protected person. So I thought that it would always be a hit and miss and something just to put up with. In the aftermath, I don't know if I'd done otherwise if I had known then what I know now. I really can't say.


Blickpunkt: You said that your skin became surer with the 1990s. How do you get this conclusion when people never really forgot?


Villeau: The 89 riots. The French Union kicked their motherland out of the club, Paris was not pleased, the world wasn't pleased about Paris either. The French really overestimated their potential to make facts in their supposed backyard which was no longer their backyard at the end of day. That the French didn't test their potential was just to the riots. The French people came to consider if the banlieue and their people really didn't exist, and the French government came to consider it they didn't become the backyard of their supposed backyard. People feared that Algier and Dakar could became new Vladivostoks and they judged that they didn't want to be blamed for making my sculptures reality. People finally acknowledged my work and came to let me live.


Blickpunkt: Do you find it ironic that the French are now promoting to become a backyard of a federating Europe?


Villeau: (visibly laughing) I find it ironic how French politicians harboring an imperialist attitude ten years ago now pretend to be comparably enthusiastic about giving up national sovereignity. But I don't find it ironic in the matter. People say that France won its wars but lost the peace thereafter. The reason why people didn't see it was that not every government screwed things up. We had no problem with letting the Indochinese go, but things went awry when Africa was at stake. There were people that understood, but they were overtoned with de Gaulle wannabes. We could have disbanded, but the leaders were blind. And we can be happy that things didn't become more violent.


Blickpunkt: You'll come to that David Schwarz exhibition in Breslau. People say that Schwarz and you have a love-hate relationship towards one another. What's the real deal?


Villeau: The real deal is that we're very good friends. And that we respect each other artistically. His Entropa is just amazing and he also allowed me a guest appearance there. And as I'm an annihilist and as we'll be in Breslau, I decided to combine the two.


Blickpunkt: You don't want to tell me that you'll be portraying the host town with its recent flood!


Villeau: Oh yes, I will. Do you know the name Max Berg?


Blickpunkt: No, I don't.


Villeau: Then you will!

[Kabraloth]

Damn, that's one fine update. Classy!

[Dr. Nodelescu]

Kabraloth, is it a coincidence that some "Ithanyx" opened the Weimar World entry at tvtropes.org at the same day as set your last post here?

If not, who else is Ithanyx?

[Glen]

As I did in the Chaos TL, I'll do here as well. I picked up the notion of some "Marcel Villeau" ITTL that will definitely not have existed in our lifetime. I wrote an interview about him:

Damn, that's one fine update. Classy!

I approve this post. Great addition to the continuing world of Weimar World, Dr. Nodelescu!

[Kabraloth]

Kabraloth, is it a coincidence that some "Ithanyx" opened the Weimar World entry at tvtropes.org at the same day as set your last post here?

If not, who else is Ithanyx?
Sorry, didn't see the post until now. The TVTropes Entry (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeimarWorld) is no coincidence and I have to thank you for it. :)

[Glen]

Sorry, didn't see the post until now. The TVTropes Entry (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeimarWorld) is no coincidence and I have to thank you for it. :)

Indeed. I think it is way cool that Weimar World has spread beyond our AH.com borders.

[Dr. Nodelescu]

Let's play a game... or am I to spoil anyway? There are a lot of things from OTL that I put as lampshades into this Villeau interview. That's the whole board's homework for the rest of this decade (meaning, of course, the next two weeks :D)...



Why did I take the year 1997 instead of any other random year of that decade?
The "Retrospect" section of the "Blickpunkt" magazine should be an obvious lampshade for any well informed German on the board. A hint, the mentioned page is the last page of the whole magazine. Of which magazine?
Angoulême, the birthplace of Villeau, was not the birthplace, but at least a place where an important Frenchman IOTL (and probably ITTL as well) was in charge. Who was he?
Gospodin Ilyushin wants to obtain a Zhongghuo Commerce Towers replica. What they don't say is that Yamasaki applied his draft to become the blueprint of aforementioned towers. Shanghai declined back then, because the Pruitt-Igoe story made them believe that Yamasaki's work may be cursed. It didn't help, the Zhongghuo CTs no longer exists. Which is the most (in)famous accomplished building Minoru Yamasaki ever drafted IOTL?
Can you tell me something of a "Batidesa" equivalent in OTL?
Parisian banlieue dwelling on fire. Does this remind you of anything? Do you remind him who said he was going to exterminate the scum there with the pressure washer? Tell me why even a copycat of this OTL character would hardly exist in this timeline.
Villeau's infamous punchline had an interesting structure: "Not a victory for me, it's a victory for the common good, and my whatever!" - Which is the show I took the original wording from, and which character said this on which occasion? I'll give you hint, it's a US-procuded long running animation series.
There is a guy name called David Schwarz you designed some "Entropa" IOTL. It's just his real name germanized. And which country does the real David Schwarz come from?
What does some Max Berg have to do with Breslau?

A personal question to you guys also affecting the interview: Who of you out there have been living in a burden-released inner-city hell-hole that became so artsy that it became incredibly expensive? Anybody?

Looking forward to your answers, Dr. No.

[Dr. Nodelescu]

I'm not really that patient, and you're really not interested, so I'll spoil the whole thing now.



I didn't apply the butterfly effect to the weather, and the answer is within the article. In 1997, there was the notable Oder flood.
Stern magazine, the last page. It's always in the manner of "Was macht eigentlich...?" (What the hell is ... doing?)
François Mitterand. He's been the major of Angoulême for some time IOTL. His birthplace however was in Jarnac, which isn't that far away either.
Pruitt-Igoe would never have been called this way ITTL, that's my fault, Pruitt and Igoe were WW2 pilots IOTL, which never happen in this timeline. But it was really designed by pre-POD born Yamasaki. Yamasaki's most famous building is the New York World Trade Center with its Twin Towers.
Ever typed in "buidlings of disaster" at Google? 9/11 Twin Towers have been out of sale (http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2007/12/gold-bldgs.jpg) for a long time now, just as Chernobyl. So yes, my inspiration came from OTL.
On doit nettoyer la racaille au Kärcher, oui? These famous words came from Nicolas Sarkozy. He's got Sephardim heritage in his maternal lineage and his father was a Hungarian noble. No WWII, no Soviets, no need to flee to France and to breed with another outcast.
South Park, episode 1110, Imaginationland I. Cartman gets his right to oral sex from Kyle by court order. His lines are "Thank you, this isn't a victory for me, this is a victory for the court system. And my balls."
Czech Republic, his name is David Černý, the family name meaning "black" or "schwarz" in German.
Max Berg was the designer of Breslau's Centennial Hall, all done before the POD, and still existing in OTL, now better known in Wroclaw as "Hala Ludowa" or alternatively as "Hala Stulecia".

You gave no answers, I'm really not that glad.

[Glen]

I'm not really that patient,

Thank God!

and you're really not interested,

I am, I'm just slow...

so I'll spoil the whole thing now.

Yeah!!!



I didn't apply the butterfly effect to the weather, and the answer is within the article. In 1997, there was the notable Oder flood.
Stern magazine, the last page. It's always in the manner of "Was macht eigentlich...?" (What the hell is ... doing?)
François Mitterand. He's been the major of Angoulême for some time IOTL. His birthplace however was in Jarnac, which isn't that far away either.
Pruitt-Igoe would never have been called this way ITTL, that's my fault, Pruitt and Igoe were WW2 pilots IOTL, which never happen in this timeline. But it was really designed by pre-POD born Yamasaki. Yamasaki's most famous building is the New York World Trade Center with its Twin Towers.
Ever typed in "buidlings of disaster" at Google? 9/11 Twin Towers have been out of sale (http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2007/12/gold-bldgs.jpg) for a long time now, just as Chernobyl. So yes, my inspiration came from OTL.
On doit nettoyer la racaille au Kärcher, oui? These famous words came from Nicolas Sarkozy. He's got Sephardim heritage in his maternal lineage and his father was a Hungarian noble. No WWII, no Soviets, no need to flee to France and to breed with another outcast.
South Park, episode 1110, Imaginationland I. Cartman gets his right to oral sex from Kyle by court order. His lines are "Thank you, this isn't a victory for me, this is a victory for the court system. And my balls."
Czech Republic, his name is David Černý, the family name meaning "black" or "schwarz" in German.
Max Berg was the designer of Breslau's Centennial Hall, all done before the POD, and still existing in OTL, now better known in Wroclaw as "Hala Ludowa" or alternatively as "Hala Stulecia".

You gave no answers, I'm really not that glad.



Interesting tidbits you worked in! I don't live in such a place.

[Glen]

Bumping for the education of the children.

[Zeldar155]

I have to say, this is one of the greatest Weimar timelines i ever read!

Good work!:)

[Snowstalker]

EPIC BUMP!!!

[Glen]

I have to say, this is one of the greatest Weimar timelines i ever read!

Good work!:)

EPIC BUMP!!!

Thanks to both of you. Someday, someday, I plan to write the next 100 years for the Weimar World Timeline...2118 will be a blast!:cool:

[Richter10]

Bumped becaute it deserved it! :D

I like specially the fact that at the beginning that it was thought was impossible, but at the end it made the Weimar Republic not only survive as also prosper! :p

[Glen]

Bumped becaute it deserved it! :D

I like specially the fact that at the beginning that it was thought was impossible, but at the end it made the Weimar Republic not only survive as also prosper! :p

That was a fun part of it. We took on something big (about the only white whale bigger would have been the unmentionable sea mammal) and it came out as a great timeline - I really would like one day to flesh out the last decade or two of the timeline as it stands, and even perhaps project it into the next hundred years.

[JJohnson]

Does anyone know what the Weimar Constitution says about the presidency in the event of a vacancy in office? I think initially the powers of the presidency are assumed by the Chancellor, but can anyone confirm that? If this is the case, how long can the Chancellor act as president before they are supposed to choose a new one, that is without changing any laws?


Article 51 (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Weimar_constitution). In case of disability the President of the Reich shall be represented first of all by the Chancellor. If the disability will presumably continue for a longer time, the matter of a substitute shall be determined by national law.
In case of a premature vacancy in the presidency, the same course shall be followed until a new election has been held.

[Glen]

Article 51 (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Weimar_constitution). In case of disability the President of the Reich shall be represented first of all by the Chancellor. If the disability will presumably continue for a longer time, the matter of a substitute shall be determined by national law.
In case of a premature vacancy in the presidency, the same course shall be followed until a new election has been held.

As determined by national law - that seems like quite the push off. I think we changed that in the timeline to make for a clearer succession (but it has been a while, so it is hard to remember for certain). Thanks for the info, though JJohnson!

[Thon Taddeo]

Bumping with a new map for the timeline. The most recent ones I saw when I skimmed the thread were a couple years old, so I made one using a more recent base-map.

[Richter10]

That was a fun part of it. We took on something big (about the only white whale bigger would have been the unmentionable sea mammal) and it came out as a great timeline - I really would like one day to flesh out the last decade or two of the timeline as it stands, and even perhaps project it into the next hundred years.

That would be really interesting. Maybe with ESA SPS and augmented-reality Internet.

I wonder how the CERN become in this timeline...

[Glen]

Bumping with a new map for the timeline. The most recent ones I saw when I skimmed the thread were a couple years old, so I made one using a more recent base-map.

That's a great map, Thon! If you haven't done so, you should show it off in the Maps thread. One quick thing that I saw and it could be that my memory is mixing this up with another timeline, but didn't Burma remain with India?

[Glen]

That would be really interesting. Maybe with ESA SPS and augmented-reality Internet.

I wonder how the CERN become in this timeline...

Yep. CERN is in fact mentioned somewhere in here IIRC....hmm, only looks like some speculation, nothing firmed up. But yes, there would be something like CERN and there would be some similarities and some differences.

[Glen]

JJohnson, thanks for your interest in the Weimar Republic Survives project. The timeline that this thread created can be found in Finished Timelines and Scenarios under Weimar World (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=61333). While I would be willing to accept additions to Weimar World, the main events up to 2018 are already set.

However, you put a LOT of work into a very interesting alternate scenario (though with some very interesting parallels). I would like to move your scenario to a new thread under whatever name you would like (I could leave a post here with the link so people know where it went). I would also be willing in such a new thread to give a detailed discussion of your proposed scenario. What do you say, feel like giving this forum another great Weimar Republic Timeline thread?:D

[Thon Taddeo]

That's a great map, Thon! If you haven't done so, you should show it off in the Maps thread. One quick thing that I saw and it could be that my memory is mixing this up with another timeline, but didn't Burma remain with India?

Reading through the timeline, it appears that Burma did remain separate from the dominion of India.

I did, however, adjust Yugoslavia's and Italy's borders, as well as make Alaska and Hawaii states.

[Glen]

Reading through the timeline, it appears that Burma did remain separate from the dominion of India.

I did, however, adjust Yugoslavia's and Italy's borders, as well as make Alaska and Hawaii states.

Must have gotten mixed up with our XXth Century timeline.

[JJohnson]

JJohnson, thanks for your interest in the Weimar Republic Survives project. The timeline that this thread created can be found in Finished Timelines and Scenarios under Weimar World (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=61333). While I would be willing to accept additions to Weimar World, the main events up to 2018 are already set.

However, you put a LOT of work into a very interesting alternate scenario (though with some very interesting parallels). I would like to move your scenario to a new thread under whatever name you would like (I could leave a post here with the link so people know where it went). I would also be willing in such a new thread to give a detailed discussion of your proposed scenario. What do you say, feel like giving this forum another great Weimar Republic Timeline thread?:D

Hi Glen,

Thanks! I've been reading through Weimar World, and it's definitely a detailed work (I have a bit of trouble telling what changed and what's the same, but that's probably more me than the timeline). I do enjoy seeing all the details you all put in there.

I would be happy to start up a new timeline for the Weimar Republic, though as for names, I'm not 100% sure...I'm open to ideas, perhaps something like "Einigkeit and Recht: The Weimar Republic" ? or "Einigkeit: The Weimar Republic"?

[Glen]

Hi Glen,

Thanks! I've been reading through Weimar World, and it's definitely a detailed work (I have a bit of trouble telling what changed and what's the same, but that's probably more me than the timeline). I do enjoy seeing all the details you all put in there.

I would be happy to start up a new timeline for the Weimar Republic, though as for names, I'm not 100% sure...I'm open to ideas, perhaps something like "Einigkeit and Recht: The Weimar Republic" ? or "Einigkeit: The Weimar Republic"?

Thanks and go with the shorter title.

[Glen]

Hi Glen,

Thanks! I've been reading through Weimar World, and it's definitely a detailed work (I have a bit of trouble telling what changed and what's the same, but that's probably more me than the timeline). I do enjoy seeing all the details you all put in there.

I would be happy to start up a new timeline for the Weimar Republic, though as for names, I'm not 100% sure...I'm open to ideas, perhaps something like "Einigkeit and Recht: The Weimar Republic" ? or "Einigkeit: The Weimar Republic"?

Thanks and go with the shorter title.

I have moved your sketched out premise for another path for Weimar to Einigkeit: The Weimar Republic (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=244241). I shall place all further comments on your scenario there, while those directed towards the Weimar World timeline developed in this thread will still get posted here.

[JJohnson]

That's a point, I think. And also, I just read on Wikipedia that one of Poland's big fears was Germany launching a limited war and then negotiating with the West for peace and the territory acquired thereby, implying in my mind a real belief that they would get it.

Do you happen to remember this article? I was looking for it and couldn't find it.

[JJohnson]

Hey Glen,

Can you put up a chart of the Presidents and Chancellors and their times in office, party, and major initiatives? I usually find that's easier to see who's doing what when when it's in a chart format. I grabbed these from your timeline, but I may have missed some information, or misread dates, so I wanted to check with you to verify this is how your timeline goes.

I think I have them all here:

Presidents:
Friedrich Ebert 1918-1933
Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck 1933-1947
Otto Braun 1947-1955 (died in office)
Konrad Adenauer 1955-1962
Ludwig Erhard 1962-1976
Herbert Ernst Karl Frahm 1976-
Gerry Bernstein 2011-

Chancellors:
-Gustav Bauer 1920-1923
-Gustav Streseman - 1923-1928 (died in office)
-Hermann Müller 1928-1930
-Heinrich Brüning 1930-1933
-Carl Friedrich Goerdeler (DNVP) 1933-1940
-Konrad Adenauer (Zentrum) 1940-1947
-Erich Ollenhauer (SPD) 1947-

Elections held in 1918, 1920, 1923, 1933, 1940, 1947, 1954, 1969, 1976, 2011 (from mentions in the timeline, I may have missed some)

[Glen]

Do you happen to remember this article? I was looking for it and couldn't find it.

No I do not I am afraid - that was years ago.

[Glen]

Hey Glen,

Can you put up a chart of the Presidents and Chancellors and their times in office, party, and major initiatives? I usually find that's easier to see who's doing what when when it's in a chart format. I grabbed these from your timeline, but I may have missed some information, or misread dates, so I wanted to check with you to verify this is how your timeline goes.

I think I have them all here:

Presidents:
Friedrich Ebert 1918-1933
Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck 1933-1947
Otto Braun 1947-1955 (died in office)
Konrad Adenauer 1955-1962
Ludwig Erhard 1962-1976
Herbert Ernst Karl Frahm 1976-
Gerry Bernstein 2011-

Chancellors:
-Gustav Bauer 1920-1923
-Gustav Streseman - 1923-1928 (died in office)
-Hermann Müller 1928-1930
-Heinrich Brüning 1930-1933
-Carl Friedrich Goerdeler (DNVP) 1933-1940
-Konrad Adenauer (Zentrum) 1940-1947
-Erich Ollenhauer (SPD) 1947-

Elections held in 1918, 1920, 1923, 1933, 1940, 1947, 1954, 1969, 1976, 2011 (from mentions in the timeline, I may have missed some)

It thing you hit most of the ones who were mentioned in the timeline. We never did come up with a full roster if I recall correctly. Past a certain point the gestault politics was more important than the personalities.

[JJohnson]

If the Weimar Republic stands, does Prussia remain as a state covering most of the territory of Germany, or do you see it ever breaking up or having parts break off, such as Rhine Province or Hanover?

[Glen]

If the Weimar Republic stands, does Prussia remain as a state covering most of the territory of Germany, or do you see it ever breaking up or having parts break off, such as Rhine Province or Hanover?

It's an interesting question that I don't think we ever addressed in the formation of the timeline. At the time of the OTL Weimar Republic it remained a unitary state, and a fairly stable one at that, though there was talk of breaking it up.

In Weimar World, I don't think that there would be much of a drive to break Prussia up, so it probably remains unitary, unless someone has a good idea for a series of events that would lead to its peaceful reorganization into multiple states. And remember, events in Weimar World, especially those that directly impact Germany, should promote a stable, peaceful, long-lasting Weimar Republic (even if, ironically, that name is not used by Germany in the timeline proper).