AH Challenge: The Weimar Republic Survives TL [Archive] - Page 5

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 02:17 AM

Weimar World timeline: 1930-39

1930
March 12 1930 Gandhi starts his march to protest the salt tax law.
June 30, 1930 Hermann Mueller leaves office when his own party (SPD) abandons the coalition. Center right coalition forms with Center party leader Heinrich Bruening as Chancellor.
July 4 1930 Lord Irwin, after meeting with members of the governing Labour Party in London, announces a round table will be created to discuss India’s constitutional progress to achieve Dominion status.
October 24, 1930 Coup d'état in Brazil replaces Washington Luis with populist Gen. Getúlio Vargas. Vargas embarks on a path of social reformism to attempt to reconcile radically diverging interests. Reflecting the influence of the tenentes, he even advocated a program of social welfare and reform with striking parallel to New Deal in the United States. Vargas develops a "a legal hybrid" between the regimes of Mussolini's Italy and Salazar's Portuguese Estado Novo, copying repressive fascist tactics, and conveying their same rejection of liberal capitalism, but attains power baring few indications of his future quasi-fascist polices. With a new constitution drafted with extensive influence from European fascist models, Vargas begins reining in even moderate trade unions and turning against the tenentes. His further concessions to the latifundios pushes him toward an alliance with the Integralists, Brazil's mobilized fascist movement.
November 12 1930 The first round table meetings on India show the differences between the Muslims and the Hindus. The Hindus wanted a strong central government while the Muslims wanted a loose confederation. Also the Sikhs want a Sikh nation in Punjab.

1931
January 12th 1931 The first round table meetings on India end. What emerges is an agreement to safe guard minorities in the constitution and the creation of a weak federal government to appease the Muslim delegates.
March 5 1931 Second round table meetings on India begin. Gandhi misses the meetings due to health reasons and the Congress representatives agree on the basis of a communal settlement for India. On the return to India of the delegates, Gandhi disavows their actions in London. This divides the Indian National Congress party. The Gandhi faction starts civil disobedience but the division of their party shows they are not the representatives of the whole Indian people.
June 1, 1931 Three million unemployed reported in Germany.
June 20, 1931 Herbert Hoover puts moratorium on reparations.
August 11, 1931 Austrian Kreditanstalt collapses.
September 13, 1931 The German bank crisis occurs.
September 20, 1931 Alfred Hugenberg made leader of DNVP by narrow margin.
October 11, 1931 Attempts to form a coalition between DNVP, Stahlhelm, DSP, and the Strasser splinter group fail. DNVP decides to stay in the government for the time being.

1932

March 5, 1932 Julius Streicher, leader of the DSP, high profile arrest on obsenity and perversion charges. The trial stretching through much of 1932 is a nadir for the far right.
April 20, 1932 Darkhorse candidate Carl Friedrich Goerdeler successfully challenges Alfred Hugenberg for leadership of the DNVP. Vows the DNVP will stay the course with the current government.
December 25, 1932 Constitutional rule is restored in Chile. Arturo Fortunato Alessandri Palma, a member of the Liberal Party, becomes president of Chile, serving until 1938.

1933
March 31, 1933 A conservative coup d’etat topples the socialist government of Uruguay. The socialist reform leaders are either assassinated or fled into exile, and a Conservative dictatorship begins. The Colorado party turns further to the left during the dictatorship years.
April 10, 1933 Friedrich Ebert loses badly in the second round of elections against center right consensus candidate and war hero Reichswehr Chief of Staff Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck. Former President Ebert in his concession speech calls for a peaceful transition, which by and large happens.
August 5 1933 The Government of India Act of 1933 announced and will be implemented by 1935.
August 7, 1933 DNVP leader Carl Friedrich Goerdeler becomes Chancellor of Germany.
October 23, 1933 Letter from Ludwig Erhard regarding economic reform so impresses Chancellor Goerdeler that he brings the man onto his staff as an advisor.

1934
February 12, 1934 Kummersdorf becomes the base for military rocket research.
March 21, 1934 Adolf Hitler’s Heimwehr faction begins a civil war after refusing to join Engelbert Dolfuss’s Fatherland Front (clerical faction of the Heimwehr joins the Fatherland Front, but is in the minority due to the recruitment efforts of the Charismatic Hitler). Several extremist volunteers from both Germany and Czechoslovakia swarm over the border to join the conflict in the early days. Socialists in Vienna take advantage of the chaos and take over the capitol, but can’t make progress very far from the city. With the onset of the Austrian Civil War, Albert Einstein leaves Austria, immigrating to Germany.
May 5, 1934 League of Nations declares a weapons embargo of all sides in the Austrian Civil War, which is promptly violated by both the Soviets and Italians. The Italians are secretly sending aid to both the Hitler and Dolfuss factions.
July 2, 1934 Former General Paul von Hindenburg dies, and Germany is thrown into a state of mourning that rivals that after the death of Chancellor Stresemann.
July 16, 1934 A new constitution is enacted in Brazil. The Vargas government claims that the corporatist provisions of the constitution of 1934 will unite all classes in mutual interests—its stated purpose (but not always actual) in Fascist Italy.
August 13, 1934 President Lettow-Vorbeck ceremonially breaks ground on the newest rail line in Germany, one proposed to carry speed steam locomotives across the length and breadth of Germany, part of the revitalization package of Chancellor Goerdeler.

1935
January 13, 1935 Saarland votes over 90% to reunite with Germany.
May 20, 1935 Under pressure from Great Britain and with worsening economic problems domestically, France acquiesces to ‘limited’ German rearmament. Afterward, the rapid ‘development’ of the Reichswehr makes previous German covert rearming apparent, but the Great Powers turn a blind eye to this.
June 3, 1935 Brazilian politics has been drastically destabilized. Vargas' attention focuses on the rise of two nationally based and highly ideological European-style movements, both committed to European-style mass-mobilization: one pro-Communist and the other pro-fascist—one linked to Moscow and the other to Rome.
July 8, 1935 The Dominion of India is created. Subhas Bose is named Prime Minister with Mohammed Ali Jinnah as second in command. An Indian parliament is created but British institutions and borders are maintained for the time being. The Indian National Party reunifies but they admit their failure in getting the support of the Muslims, but the two rival parties made impossible the continued existence of this arrangement.
August 30, 1935 Token military force enters the Rhineland. The French government proclaims this as a great victory as the German force is not even enough to defend the Rhineland, much less threaten France. The German government point to this as the full restoration of German sovereignty and the return of Germany as a full member of the international family of nations.
October 3, 1935 Italian troops invade Abyssinia.
November 13, 1935 While the Austrian civil war has so far accomplished little except have several notable extremists of the age die gloriously in battle, Hitler makes a bold speech by radio from an undisclosed location, calling for the unification of Germans in Germany and Czechoslovakia with Austria. The speech is only heard in the local area of the broadcast.

1936
May 30, 1936 Italy annexes Abyssinia after a year long war which includes the use of mustard gas. By the end of June, after League condemnation of the annexation, Italy leaves the League of Nations.
July 10, 1936 The Spanish Civil War begins.
September 1, 1936 ‘Red’ Vienna falls to a Fatherland Front attack to regain the capital, but Hitler’s faction then attacks the exsanguinated forces of Dolfuss; the city will be a divided war-zone for the rest of the conflict.
August 16, 1936 Closing Ceremonies of the 1936 Berlin Olympics. The event is a showcase of the German Republic. President Lettow-Vorbeck hosted a number of his former Askari in Berlin, allowed by London to travel from Tanzania for the event. Later, a photo in Time magazine of the German President congratulating Jesse Owens with the Askari at his side leads the KKK in the American South to denounce the German leader. Many of the Olympians and celebrities from America made the trip to Germany on the impressive Graf Zepplin II. With its all Helium design, it is felt by many to be one of the safest means of transportation in history.
September 20, 1936 Germany and the West, fed up with the chaos in Austria and now civil war in Spain, agree to allow German intervention in Austria. With the knock-out of the Socialists from the war, French Prime Minister Leon Blum sees little reason to hinder a Republican Germany from intervening, as the success of either of the remaining two factions would be undesirable. German troops stream over the border and overall are greeted as saviors by the war weary Austrians. To further reassure France and the United Kingdom, as well as to cement growing relations, on the same day the German Republic and Czechoslovakia sign a mutual defense treaty.
October 21, 1936 Hitler, rather than surrendering, commits suicide in his hideout in the mountains. Nearly all the Dolfuss and Hitler faction forces have surrendered to the rapidly advancing Germans, often without a fight. The few die-hard units are quickly dispatched by the Reichswehr. Dolfuss retires from politicis.
December 9, 1936 After a few months of diplomacy, Italy acquiesces to German occupation and a vote on Anschluss after the German government agrees to recognize the possession of the South Tyrol by Italy.

1937
February 14, 1937 The Austrians hold a referendum overwhelmingly supporting unification with Germany. Though the Treaty of Saint Germaine forbade Austria from political or economic union with Germany, Germany points out that they were not party to that agreement, and that the Austrian government had essentially ceased to exist. World sentiment seems to favor the unification.
March 15, 1937 Stalin, concerned about the close ties that developed between Soviet military officers and the Germans during the years of cooperation in the 1920s, launches a purge of the Red Army that will last the year, essentially crippling the Red Army for the next several years.
March 9, 1937 Completion of move of military rocket research to Peenemünde (on the recommendation of Werner von Braun). Kummersdorf converted over to military applications of atomic research, involving not only several German physicists, but also many Hungarian scientists who have immigrated to Germany to escape the repressive regime in Hungary.
April 12, 1937 Italy and Hungary form a mutual defense pact, called the Rome-Budapest Axis by Mussolini.
July 24, 1937 Germany proposes in the League of Nations a referendum on Danzig and the Polish Corridor. Poland at first is against the idea.
August 20, 1937 Poland’s president, Ignacy Mościcki, thinking he could win a referendum that includes both the Kassubian populated Polish corridor and the German Danzig, and noting that a significant portion of the Reichswehr would still be in Austria, gambles and announces his willingness for the vote to happen, but that it must occur by mid September. Germany agrees.
September 10, 1937 Less than a week before the Polish Corridor referendum, the Reichstag approves sweeping minority rights legislation. This will be the centerpiece of a wave of radio broadcasts in a German campaign to win over Kashubians to the German Republic. Emphasis is also placed in the broadcasts on Sorbs, another Slavic group living within the Republic who have done well, as well as making distinction between the Kashubians and the Poles.
September 15, 1937 The Polish Corridor referendum, though fraught with fraud on both sides, shows a majority in favor of unification with the German Republic. Very high turnout in Danzig is one factor; another is the substantial minority of Kashubian voters who also vote for unification with Germany. While the German minority legislation and 11th hour campaign are believed to have been important factors, most historians believe the deciding factors were actually the stability in recent years of the German government and their substantially better economic performance during the Great Depression than most nations in Europe and indeed the world.
September 16, 1937 When the result of the referendum starts to become clear, Poland repudiates it as rigged and begins to move troops into the region as a ‘stabilizing measure’. However, within hours of the Polish actions, heavy German troop movement is reported all along the border with Germany, many being identified as troops believed to be in Austria, and even the Czechs appear to be mobilizing. Fearing a general invasion is about to occur, Marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły begins to redeploy troops to hold off a large scale invasion and protect the capitol and key industrial centers.
September 17, 1937 In the predawn hours the Germans strike as expected in the Polish Corridor, but in an unexpected manner. Paratroops land throughout the narrow corridor, within the lines of the Polish forces in the region. While there were many problems with the drop, the surprise move throws the Polish forces within the corridor into confusion, which is taken advantage of by German troops moving in from Germany proper and East Germany. The German Chancellor announces that the intention of the Germans is to only enforce the will of the people in the recent referendum. Rydz-Śmigły refuses offers of assistance from the Soviets.
September 25, 1937 The leaders of France and Great Britain meet with the Germans in Hamburg to discuss the Polish Crisis. By this time, Polish troops have been expelled from the narrow Polish Corridor, allowing the formation of a continuous defensive line between now linked East Prussia and the rest of Germany. Despite Marshal Rydz-Śmigły’s continued belief that the Germans will launch a full out assault, the Germans and Czechs have taken up defensive positions only and no further incursions into Poland have occurred. The entire threatened invasion was an enormous bluff playing on Polish fears which tied down the bulk of their battle ready troops. After personal assurances by President Lettow-Vorbeck himself, the British and French agree to support the annexation of the Polish Corridor to Germany in return for Germany finally accepting the rest of their Eastern border with Poland and allowing liberal access through to the Baltic for Polish businesses. With no support from the West, and fear of the Soviets, the Poles feel no choice but to tacitly accept what they refer to as ‘the selling out of Poland’.
October 1, 1937 Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain returns in triumph to London announcing that they shall have ‘peace in our time’ and that ‘President Lettow-Vorbeck is an honorable man who we may trust to keep his word, both for himself and his nation’.
November 10, 1937 Vargas, ruling by decree, makes a broadcast to the people of Brazil in which he states his plans to assume dictatorial powers under the second new constitution of his regime derived from European fascist models, thereby curtailing presidential elections (his ultimate objections) and dissolving congress.
November 17, 1937 Under the Estado Novo, the Brazilian state announces an ambitious Five-Year Plan whose goals included the expansion of heavy industry, the creation of new sources of hydroelectric power, and the expansion of the railway network to develop Brazil's capital base. Empirical data will confirm that Vargas is advancing the bourgeois revolution, at least to an extent.
December 10, 1937 Final report of the British Commission on Palestine recommends Partition with a Jewish Homeland in the Northwest, a Palastinian state in the South and East, and a sizable remnant British Mandate around Jerusalem.

1938
January 1, 1938 Polish president Ignacy Mościcki is forced out of office by the military, and Foreign Minister Józef Beck is made president, while Marchal Rydz-Śmigły retains control of the army.
January 15, 1938 Poland formally joins the Axis. This is a bittersweet moment for Beck, as Poland is finally starting to become part of a ‘Third Europe’, but one led by Italy, not Poland.
May 1, 1938 On a date possibly chosen for irony, then nations of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Germany, and Czechoslovakia announce a Northern European Alliance to defend against Communism, the Soviets particularly, and Fascism. Quietly, Great Britain has given assurances of support for the group as well.
July 14, 1938 First jet airplane flight occurs at Heinkel Field.
September 5, 1938 Aware of the need of modern industry for abundant sources of power, Brazilian leader Vargas creates the National Petroleum Company to search for oil.
December 25, 1938 Pedro Aguirre Cerda of the Popular Front is elected president of Chile. He implements education reforms, but dies in 1941 while in office.

1939
January 13, 1939 Nuclear Fission discovered by Otto Hahn, Lise Meitner and coworkers at the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institute for Chemistry in Berlin.
February 9, 1939 Bulgaria joins the Axis ‘Pact of Steel’ with Italy and Hungary.
April 17, 1939 Italy attacks Albania, taking control of the small nation in the name of King Victor Emmanuel III.
June 23, 1939 The Nationalists have taken Madrid, and Franco declares victory, becoming the Fascist dictator of Spain.
November 4, 1939 Start of the Yugoslavian Crisis. Italy, Hungary, and Bulgaria invade Yugoslavia, threatening the complete partition the country. Within days Yugoslavia stands on the brink of collapse. German forces in German Austria mobilize along the border, but the British and French demand that the Italians meet for mediation.
October 1, 1939 The Trieste Conference results in Italy and her allies being forced by France and the UK to accept token concessions; mostly some Dalmatian coast and islands for Italy, and strips of adjacent land to the borders of Hungary and Bulgaria, though overall Yugoslavia will be spared from disassembly. The UK is able to demand that the concessions do not cut Yugoslav borders off from other nations in the area.
December 9, 1939 Yugoslavia requests admission to the Northern European Alliance. After heavy lobbying from the German government, the Alliance accepts them.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 02:20 AM

Weimar World timeline: 1940-1949

1940
January 14, 1940 Brazil's manufacturing output has increased substantially over the decade, but coffee production has declined. As a result, to further placate the forces of the old order, the government between 1934-37 and under the Estado Novo also has invested considerably in the expansion of coffee production. Coffee is also the principal foreign exchange export earner.
May 12, 1940 Presidential and Reichstag elections held. President Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck in his second election becomes the first President of the Republic to win a majority on the first ballot. With the addition of Catholic Austria to the Republic, the Center party and its allied minor parties are winners as well, and the new Center Party leader Konrad Adenauer becomes Chancellor of Germany (though still in a center-right coalition government).
September 1, 1940 Romanian negotiations to join the Axis break down over demands of land concessions to Hungary and Bulgaria. Fearing that the Romanians may instead join the Alliance, Hungary launches their long considered war against Romania over Transylvania. Their allies the Bulgarians simultaneously attack into Dobruja.
September 24, 1940 The Romanians were doing well against the Italian supported Hungarians and Bulgarians when the Soviets launch a surprise action into Bessarabia. Shortly thereafter, the Romanians are forced to cede Bessarabia to the Soviets in order to save their nation from them and return their attentions to the Hungarians and Bulgarians.
October 24, 1940 Much progress has been made in Brazil since Vargas came to power ten years ago. Cement production increases to 700,000 tons from 87,000 tons in October 24, 1930. Brazil's capacity for electricity generation reachs 1 million kilowatts, of which 60 percent was located in the São Paulo area, primarily due to the construction of hydroelectric power stations. Iron and steel output went up to 150,000 tons in 1939-40. The number of manufacturing enterprises more than double during the decade leading up to this date, reaching 50,000. Factories in the São Paulo area employ 35 percent of the industrial labor force and generate 43 percent of the value of industrial production. Aside from the export of textiles, the manufacturing industries serve the domestic market almost exclusively. Brazil has 44,100 plants employing 944,000 workers; the comparable figure for December 31, 1920 was 13,336 plants with about 300,000 workers.
November 5, 1940 Arthur Vandenberg is elected President of the United States of America.
December 25, 1940 Romanian soldiers and civilians celebrate as the last of Hungarian and Bulgarian retreat from Romania.

1941
January 20, 1941 Romania joins the Northern European Alliance.
February 19, 1941 Communist activist Ho Chi Minh returns to Vietnam after 30 years in exile and organizes a nationalist organization named the Viet Minh.
June 1, 1941 As relations with Japan remain strained, and Europe seems more risky with both the Northern European Alliance and Axis Pact of Steel to deal with, Stalin begins a secret military build up on the Manchurian-Soviet and the Mongolian-Manchurian border, with Geory Zhukov in command.
July 30, 1941 By the end of the month 30 Russian divisions are in the Far East, the Soviets have an advantage 2:1 in men, 4:1 in tanks and vehicles and 3:1 in aircrafts.
August 9th 1941 The Second Russo-Japanese war starts. The Soviets launch a two front attack with the city of Harbin as their first goal.
August 12, 1941 At the Battle of Vladivostsk, the Soviet Far East Fleet’s attempt to escape is foiled and the majority of the fleet is destroyed.
August 16th 1941 Peruvian forces capture Cuenca after heavy fighting. Both sides are exhausted and both sides agree a cease-fire. But secret pledges by the Colombian government that they will join the conflict helps the Ecuadorians to break the cease fire on September 10th 1941 after the arrival of Colombian “volunteers” and weapons.
August 18, 1941 The Sakalin campaign launched by the Japanese.
September 26th 1941 Ecuadorian counter offensive recaptures Cuenca. Peru prepares for a final offensive to try to end the conflict.
October 10th 1941 Coastal offensive started by Peru.
November 3, 1941 The Sakalin campaign ends with a combined army-marine Japanese effort successfully conquering the northern half of the island.
November 16, 1941 Due to the terrain and stubborn Japanese resistance it is not until the middle of November that Soviets reach Harbin. The siege of Harbin begins.
November 21, 1941 Czechoslovakia formally changes its name to the Central European Republic.
December 7th 1941 Guayaquil falls to Peruvian army. Peru sends terms of surrender to Ecuador. Ecuador after consideration and further promises by Colombia refuses. A December ceasefire agreed by both sides, in reality both sides are exhausted.
December 20, 1941 The Hungarians and Bulgarians give up their attempts at Romania and withdraw to the 1940 borders.
December 24, 1941 An informal ceasefire due to weather conditions has set in and both sides consolidate their positions.

1942
February 8, 1942 Ecuadorian counter offensive starts in attempt to recapture Guayaquil, casualties mount especially between Colombian volunteers. The offensive is called off on March 2nd 1942 after failing in their objectives.
February 9, 1942 Peruvian counter offensive starts in an attempt to recapture Cuenca. With majority of enemy forces facing Guayaquil the city falls by February 21st 1942.
February 15, 1942 President Baldomir dissolves the General Assembly in Montevideo and asks the opposition parties to join in defeating the military. Uruguay Civil War starts. Colorado Party changes name to Uruguayan Communist Party.
February 24, 1942 The ceasefire comes to an end when the Japanese begin their effort to relieve Harbin.
March 9, 1942 The Harbin relief effort collapses for the Japanese. Japanese inflict severe losses upon the Soviets in this attack but fail in their objective.
March 11, 1942 Ecuador accepts terms of Peru. Peru gains all disputed territory plus El Oro province.
March 17, 1942 Harbin falls to the Soviets. A Japanese offer of peace in exchange for accepting Soviet border claims in Manchuria is rejected.
April 1, 1942 The Deep Thrust; Soviet forces, finally in better terrain than the northern part of Manchuria launch a combined arms operation to destroy the Japanese presence in Manchuria.
April 12, 1942 Liberal leader Jorge Eliezer Gaitan asks for the resignation of the current Colombian government. He blamed them for the thousands of casualties incurred during the just ended conflict and the economic chaos the nation was suffering. The lower classes, from were the majority of the casualties came from and the ones suffering more of the slow recovery from the Depression, flock to him especially in the cities.
April 23, 1942 India is divided into a loose confederation of Hindu majority provinces, Muslim majority ones, and the Sikh Azaz Punjab. Each province is governed with a high degree of autonomy except for foreign affairs, communications, defense, and finances needed for nationwide affairs. The central government is located in Delhi. There was some opposition by all sides to this final arrangement but after some violence it was accepted; it was this or the dismembering of India.
May 1, 1942 Gandhi assassinated by a disgruntled INC fanatic.
May 15 1942 Ceasefire agreement between Japan and Nationalist Chinese allows Japan to move more forces to face the Soviets.
May 20, 1942 Eliezer Gaitan assassinated while giving speech in Bogota. Start of the Colombian Civil War. Liberal sympathizers take to the streets to fight government forces.
May 29, 1942 Liberal forces capture Bogota. Alfonso Lopez Pumarejo declared President by the Liberals. Incumbent President Eduardo Santos flees to Cartagena and asks for international recognition of his cabinet as the true government of Colombia.
June 3, 1942 The Brazilian government establishes the Companhia Vale do Rio Doce to exploit the rich iron-ore deposits of Itabira.
June 6, 1942 The largest air battle ever seen is fought on this day. Both sides claim victory, but it appears to be a narrow victory for the Soviets through the sheer number of Soviet planes, not by technical or equipment advantages of which they have none; the Japanese machines are superior and Japanese pilots are about even in quality.
June 18 1942 Two Soviet tank divisions fight an ad-hoc formation equivalent to a reinforced armored brigade near Mukden. The Soviets have mostly T-26s, but with a considerable number of T-34s as well; the Japanese have Type 95 tanks. After the Soviet victory, the Japanese recognize the failure of their tank designs and begin searching abroad for new models.
July 12, 1942 The Japanese have been expelled from most of Manchuria and forced to a defensive line on the Yalu River.
July 28, 1942 Nationalist China refuses to let Japanese forces in China attack north, threatening to end the ceasefire agreement if the Japanese attack the Soviets from Chinese soil.
August 10, 1942 After a lull of one month to recover, the Soviets begin their offensive into Korea.
September 14, 1942 Uruguayan Civil War ends. Communist Party wins and declares the People’s Republic of Uruguay. While neutral, this nation turns into a sanctuary for communist sympathizers from Argentina and neighboring countries. Inmediatly recognized by the Soviet Union.
October 7, 1942 The Japanese evacuation of the Liounyan Peninsula culminates with the destruction of the Port Arthur facilities.
November 25, 1942 Juan Antonio Ríos Morales, a member of the Radical Party, is elected president of Chile.
December 31, 1942 The Japanese front is a line anchored by Wonsan and running from there west. Japanese offers of peace (Manchuria to the Soviets, Korea to the Japanese) are considered by Stalin, but rejected.

1943
March 23, 1943 The first jet fighter is developed by RLM using engine design of Anselm Franz.
April 6, 1943 The Japanese launch their counter-offensive. The slow grinding Soviet offensive has been continual throughout the year, but with the arrival of Japanese forces from China and the Japanese shorter supply lines the Soviet casualties are finally beginning to be felt. The Soviet push into Korea has bogged down. With Japan still controlling the seas, it has become a slow, grinding fight all the way down the peninsula, as the Soviets have to take on every fortified pass. The mountainous terrain also does much to negate the Soviet armor advantage. The Japanese actually gain ground and recapture Seoul.
May 13, 1943 The military ousts Argentina's constitutional government.
June 18 1943 After mediation by the United States, the Second Russo-Japanese War ends when Stalin accepts the last Japanese offer of borders drawn based on the front lines. Manchuria will become the People’s Republic of Manchuria under Mao Tse Tong, but with Soviet troops stationed there guaranteeing they remain within the Soviet sphere. North Korea too becomes a Communist satellite of the USSR. Japan, bled dry by the war, also formalizes the ceasefire with Nationalist China.
August 5, 1943 Vargas announces for Brazil a twelve year plan for growth into the interior. To distance himself from the newly defeated Mussolini he begins to go back to some of his left-centre ideologies. The opening of Southern Brazil for homesteading, a more open stance on immigration, and land reforms are key points to his plan. Vargas opens the frontier by opening forts and oil towns around the west and south.
September 20, 1943 In the wake of the Japanese performance in the Second Russo-Japaneses war, the Emperor dismisses the militarists and installs more democratically minded ministers.
October 28, 1943 Axis powers launch a surprise invasion of Greece. Bulgaria hit a wall from the very beginning but Italy made some minimal gains before also being stopped. The UK and France consider forcing another conference to deal with the situation, but fall apart with the UK wanting to take a more aggressive stance whereas France wishes to continue the appeasement policy of the past several years.
November 21, 1943 the Greeks, with secret shipment of weapons from the British coming from Egypt, launches a counter offensive that recaptures most of the lost territory.
December 1, 1943 Faced with French disinterest in a confrontation with Italy, the UK instead turns to the German Republic and the Northern European Alliance, jointly sending a demarche to the Axis powers to withdraw to their borders or a state of war will exist between them. The Axis received 72 hours to comply. Europe is on the brink of a major war.
December 2, 1943 Armed forces of the Northern European Alliance begin to mobilize. Axis nations’ leaders meet in an emergency meeting in Rome.
December 3, 1943 Axis begins withdrawing from Greece. German President Lettow-Vorbeck announces this as a victory for the democracies of Europe. He also states that the Balkans is not a playfield that could be trampled on by the fascist nations and invites both Turkey and Greece to join their European Alliance.

1944
January 7, 1944 The A-4 rocket has its first successful launch at Peenemünde.
February 7, 1944 Turkey asks for membership of the Northern European Alliance. With borders with both communists and fascists they consider this their best course of action.
February 21, 1944 Greece asks for membership to the Northern European Alliance. With their pre-Greek crisis neutrality stance shot to bits by the actions of the Axis they decide like the Turkish government that their best course of action was to join the Northern European Alliance.
June 5, 1944 Brazil creates a company for the production of materials needed by the chemical industry.
November 7, 1944 President Vandenberg wins re-election in the USA.

1945
March 2nd 1945 Border dispute on Tunisian-Libyan border. Small casualties on both sides. Mussolini asks for an apology from the French government, even when his troops were the ones that stray into French territory.
March 9th 1945 Secret buildup of Italian forces in Libya is started under the guise of a military exercise.
April 4th 1945 Italian forces cross into Tunisia in force. While overall the French border fortifications resisted the onslaught, breakthroughs by Italian forces forced the French to abandon the border fortifications and withdrew north on the 7th.
April 13th 1945 Italian forces capture Gabes. French offer cease-fire to discuss border adjustments. But Mussolini refuses out of hand and dreams of pushing the French out of Tunisia altogether and of even greater ones.
April/June 1945 Italian forces continued their advance in Tunisia while French fought a defensive strategy while moving forces into the theater. The Italian advance to the interior in the direction of the Kasserine Pass bogged down but the city of Sfax was captured the 4th of June. Italians have the initiative on all theaters during this period.
April 18th 1945 A motorized corps is organized in France, composed of the 3rd and 4th Armored plus the 1st DLM under the command of Charles de Gaulle for deployment to Africa.
April 19th 1945 Italy expands the war with the beginning of an air campaign directed at the French airfields on the south of France and Corsica. The French responded in kind with attacks to Italian air bases in northern Italy. So far into the war both sides are not targeting civilian targets. By the end of April, French aircrafts coming from the north turn this campaign into a stalemate but the Italians ruled the skies over Corsica.
April 20th 1945 French Somaliland surrenders to Italian forces.
April 28th 1945 Battle of Convoy FG28- Two Italian light cruiser with destroyer escorts tried to intercept this convoy. Unknown to them this convoy was escorted by the battle cruiser Bretagne, a light cruiser and destroyers. On the ensuing battle one Italian cruiser was sunk and the other suffers considerable damage while the French losses were minimal. The French convoys to North Africa thereafter were only affected by an overall ineffective submarine campaign.
May 1st 1945 Charles de Gaulle and lead elements arrive to Algiers. Rest of his Corps will be in theater and ready to enter combat by the end of the month.
May 8th 1945 In the biggest airborne operation in history, two airborne divisions dropped on the island of Corsica and caught the small garrison unprepared. The island is considered secure by the 18th of May after the arrival of another division by sea on the 10th to help consolidate the situation.
May 10th 1945 1st naval Battle of Corsica. The French cruiser Algiers, a light cruiser and escorts clashed with the ships escorting the infantry division on bound to Corsica. The Vittorio Veneto and the Roma made mincemeat of the French ships, sinking both the Algiers and the light cruiser with the lost of a single destroyer. Mussolini hailed this victory as a sign of the Italian superiority in battleships.
May 15th 1945 Mussolini offers terms to French to accept the current situation as permanent. The French refuse out of hand.
May 22nd 1945 French government receives assurances from the German nation that they will stay neutral in this conflict. Great Britain guaranteed this, even stating they will side with the French if Germany breaks their word. Story is that German President Lettow -Vorbeck said. “Your flank is secure. Go deal with our would-be Caesar, and when his little sticks are kindling, tell him Arminius says hello.”
May 24th 1945 French High Command began swift of forces south. While still leaving a sizeable force on the border with Germany, the bulk of the forces in Northern France began to move south in preparation of the one-two punch planned by the French leaders.
June 6th 1945 2nd naval Battle of Corsica. The French plan to gain naval superiority in the immediate waters of Corsica was a classic battle facing two battleships on each side were the lines of communication with the Italian garrison in Corsica was on the balance. The French battleships Richelieu and Jean Bart suffered moderate and slight damage respectively but they fared better than their Italian counterparts. The Duilio was sunk while the Roma suffered severe damage and has to withdraw in the direction of Taranto for repairs.
June 8th 1945 The sinking of the Roma. The battleship Roma, moving away from Corsica after being damaged in battle, is sunk by an aerial attack launched from the aircraft carrier Bearn. While many said the ship prior damage in battle is the real reason it was sunk, this action together with the actions of the Japanese fleet during the Russo-Japanese fleet proved the aircraft carrier was the future of naval forces.
June14th 1945 Italian forces in Tunisia stop offensive operations due to weariness. By now the forces involved have been fighting close to two months without rest and where close to been exhausted. Reinforcements and replacements were been marshaled in southern Italy for the trip to Libya.
June 29th 1945 British government closes the Suez Canal to all military traffic, even troop carriers.
July 3rd 1945- Simultaneous campaigns launched in the French-Italian border and in Tunisia.
July 4th 1945 Late on the afternoon Corps d’Afrique under de Gaulle achieves breakthrough and began his race for Gabes.
July 5th 1945 General Graziani recognizes the danger of the French breakthrough and orders a general withdraw before his forces get encircled.
July 8th 1945 First registered use of gas in the war. Use by Italian forces on the Alps to defeat a French attack against a fortified position.
July 9th 1945 Forces marked for reinforcement of the Tunisian effort have to be deviated north to help stop the French attack on the Alps. Forces in Tunisia were left to fend for themselves.
July 9th 1945 First registered use of gas in Tunisia. Forces escaping from the Kasserine front use gas in their attempt to break free. The shock of the use of gas made possible the escape of the majority of the forces in that front back to the border.
July 10th 1945 First bombardment of cities. Cities on Nice, Marseilles and Grenoble received the “visit” of Italian bombers. French responded later on the day with attacks to Genoa and Milan.
July 11th - 12th 1945 The Corps d’Afrique fought the biggest mechanized battle ever with the Ariete armored division and the Trieste motorized one, part of the forces trying to escape encirclement north of Gabes. Both forces suffered heavy casualties but the Italians failed in their attempt to escape encirclement. De Gaulle units pocketed the Sfax force.
July 19th 1945 Battered Italians forces reached the Tunisian-Libyan border and began to dig in. 75,000 Italians soldiers are surrounded on the Tunisian coast south of Sfax and north of Gabes.
July 23rd 1945 Offensive on the Alps stopped with minimal gains. Some news reporters compared the casualties suffered by the French “as a replay of the Great War.” Still Mussolini was forced by his own casualties to ask his Axis allies for help.
July 24th 1945 Germany and all members of the Northern European Alliance refuse the final Axis petition for right of transit of land and air forces through their territories. Instead, forces must be sent by circuitous routes in the case of Bulgaria and Hungary, and Poland can only send ‘volunteers’ through civilian transportation, with no equipment. Mussolini considers declaring war on the Northern European Alliance over this ‘obstructionism’, but King Victor Emmanuel III forbids a widening of the war.
August 3rd 1945 French Foreign Legion 3rd REI opens gap on Italian forces in Libyan border. De Gaulle Corps d’ Afrique, now reduced to two under strength divisions in manpower, pours thru the gap. Italian forces began disorganized withdraw east.
August 5th 1945 General LeClerc’s Army of Central Africa began invasion of southern Libya from French Equatorial Africa. Opposition is minimal with Italian forces escaping north.
August 13th 1945 De Gaulle enters city of Tripoli. General Graziani sacked by Mussolini.
August 20 1945 Ethiopians surreptitiously armed by the British and French begin an insurrection against the Italians.
August 22nd 1945 French forces capture el Agheila. French forces in control of Tripolitania and southern Libya. Mussolini offers peace based on the pre-war borders. France, sure now of their ability to take the war to the enemy, refuses to event discuss those terms. War continues.
September 1st 1945 The bomber campaigns began. Both nations began bomber campaigns against each other cities. These raids continued thru the rest of the war and affected more Italy, due to their industrial sites being located in the northern cities for the most part.
September 4th 1945 Franco rejected the plea of Mussolini to join the war on the Axis side. He used as an excuse that his nation was still recovering from the effects of the Civil War.
September 5th 1945 Italian forces pocketed in Tunisia surrender and go into captivity. More than 70,000 men were captured.
September 18th 1945 French forces launch amphibious invasion of Sardinia. Small garrison on the island overwhelm in 10 days after heavy casualties for both sides.
September 19th 1945 Battle of the Tylerrian Sea. Battleship Impero and escorts intercepted by the battleship Jean Bart and the battle cruiser Lorraine. The aftermath was the destruction of the Impero while the Lorraine suffered severe damage and it took years to repair the extensive damage it suffered. The Italian navy never again tried to contend the French domain of the sea.
September 21, 1945 End of the severe famine due to drought near Hanoi and surrounding areas kills close to one million people but more are saved by a League of Nations effort to help the people in the area. However, Ho Chi Minh uses this drought to recruit members for his movement.
December 23, 1945 Ho Chi Minh launches their first large-scale attack against the French. By now the Viet Minh are 30,000 strong and the numbers continue to grow.
October 2nd 1945 Simultaneous offensives launched in Africa and northern Italy by the French. This time French forces are prepared for chemical warfare and they expect to break the Italian lines this time.
October 7th 1945 With the Italian lines on the verge of collapse, nerve gas is used for first time in history to try to stop the French. The French offensive is stopped due to the terrible casualties inflicted to the unprepared troops. The results of the use of this experimental weapon never tested were a shock to both the Italians and the rest of the world.
October 9th 1945 With world public opinion outraged by the use of this new weapon and the latest ill-fortunes of the Italian forces being made public to the Italians, King Victor Emmanuel III asks Mussolini for his resignation. Mussolini, after a late bid to save his position, gave his resignation early in the morning of the 10th of October.
October 10th 1945 Count Ciano, Italian temporary leader offers peace based on October 1st frontlines. The offer is refused.
October 14th 1945 Benghazi captured by French forces. Italians continue their escape east.
October 21st 1945 Tobruk abandoned by Italian forces. More than 20,000 men flee by sea from this port before the evacuation of the city. Italian forces are actually fleeing east. Any sense of trying to defend is now gone.
October 28th 1945 Bardia and Fort Capputo surrenders to French forces. Close to 50,000 men cross into Egypt to be interned.
October 31 1945 The French gained the initiative in mid June and never lost it. Their simultaneous campaigns in July, while one of them could be considered a failure, were too much for the Italian forces. Even with reinforcements from their Axis allies the tide could not be turned back, especially when efforts went in vain to get Franco’s Spain to join the war. By the end of October the end was near.
November 11th 1945 Italian garrison in Corsica asks for terms due to the lack of supplies and according to their commander, “To ease the suffering of the civilians on the island.”
November 17th 1945- In an accord brokered by the United States and the League of Nations, the warring factions in Colombia agreed to end the conflict that caused thousands of deaths and devastated the economy of that nation. President Vandenberg sees this accord “as giving peace to this generation of Colombians and hopefully to the coming ones.”
December 15th 1945 “The Christmas Offensive” starts. The French used chemicals weapons offensively for the first time in the war and a small amphibious force was landed behind the enemy lines.
December 18th 1945 The landing behind the lines is contained on the beachheads but the front line on the passes was ready to burst. With both forces near exhaustion
December 21, 1945 Italian defenses on the passes were broken. The road to Northern Italy was open for the French.
December 23rd 1945 Count Ciano asks for a ceasefire to discuss terms of surrender. After deliberation the French government agreed.

1946
January 15, 1946 Conservative Eduardo Cruz-Coke Lassabe is elected president of Chile.
January 29th 1946 The British mediated Treaty of Nice is signed. The terms were harsh but not as bad as expected. The French recover French Somaliland and kept Libya and Sardinia. Albania was granted its independence. Abyssinia also regained its independence once more and was given Eritrea as a sea access, both as a reward for the Abyssinian insurrection that tied down Italian troops and to placate the UK, who did not wish to see the French presence grow in East Africa. Similarly, Italian Somaliland stayed on the hands of the Italians due to British worries about French encroachment in East Africa and their preference to have now a weak Italy in control of that area than a strong France. The Franco-Italian border was demilitarized. The Italian army was reduced to 200,000 men and prohibited from having chemical weapons or armored vehicles. Also the two newest remaining battleships, the Littorio and the Vittorio Veneto were taken by the French as war booty while the Italian navy had to discard their submarine fleet and was prohibited from building more battleships, aircraft carriers or ships with guns bigger than 12”. Italy’s bid to be a major power was over. Another result of this treaty was the effective end of the Axis alliance, as the Italians were forced to repudiate all previous security agreements.
February 20, 1946 Perón is victorious in Argentine elections. He aggressively pursues policies aimed at giving an economic and political voice to the working class and greatly expanding the number of unionized workers.
June 3, 1946 the National Motor Company begins the production of trucks.
August 14, 1946 Dictator Vargas of Brazil sees the realization of one of his cherished dreams; The National Steel Company begins production at the Volta Redonda plant between Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo.
August 26, 1946 Philippines awarded their independence by the United States; a very peaceful transition from Commonwealth to Republic.
August 29, 1946 Start of communist guerilla campaign in China. Chiang accuses the Soviet and the Republic of Manchuria of aiding the rebels, charges they deny.
September 27, 1946 Communist forces capture Xian. Evidence of heavy artillery and crew served weapons verified by foreign witnesses.
October 18, 1946 US President Arthur Vandenberg pledge his support to the government of the Republic of China. Loans are granted to purchase newer equipment to fight the communist aggression.

1947
January 14, 1947 Communist insurrection started in Luzon Island by a group later know as the Huks.
February 4, 1947 President Lettow-Vorbeck announces that he will not seek re-election to the Presidency.
February 14th 1947 First free elections in Italy since the 1920’s. A coalition of center-left factions wins the election as a response of the electorate to the failure of the fascists during the war.
March 13, 1947 Communist strikes on the Japanese port of Osaka and other major ports turns violent. Troops called to break the disturbances. Japanese Communist Party outlawed as a result. Emergency powers are given to Admiral Yamamoto to rule Japan until the Communist menace is eliminated.
April 20, 1947 The first successful test detonation of an atomic bomb performed by Germany.
June 20, 1947 In the second dual Presidential and Reichstag elections, the SPD candidate, senior statesman Otto Braun wins the presidency on the second ballot. SPD leader Erich Ollenhauer becomes Chancellor of a center-left coalition government. He and UK Labour Government Prime Minister Clement Attlee would come to work closely together over the years.
August 1, 1947 Though delayed by security concerns caused by the recent Tunisian War in North Africa, the Partition of the Palestinian mandate goes into effect, creating a Jewish state called Israel in the Northwest, Palestine in the rest of the mandate, and leaving a large British controlled enclave in the middle centered on Jerusalem. The event is marred by violence by extremist groups from both sides dissatisfied by the arrangement, but the large British troop contingent keeps the event relatively peaceful.

1948
March 12 1948 Miklos Horthy is reported to die from a heart attack in his sleep. Shortly thereafter, a popular coup is launched against the fascist government by a coalition of republicans and monarchists, secretly sponsored by the German government. As part of the coalition agreement, a constitutional monarchy is established under the Hapsburg heir, Otto I. However, in return for German assistance and non-interference, Otto renounces all claims to former Hapsburg lands outside of Hungary proper. One of the first acts of the new government is to repeal the oppressive numerus clausus and anti-Semitic laws.
March 29, 1948 Werner von Braun becomes head of the new civilian German Space Agency he has lobbied for years to have formed.
April 8, 1948 Admiral Yamamoto announces the Emergency is over and elections will be held on June 8th 1948 to elect a new Prime Minister. The Japanese communist movement has been stamped out. With their leaders dead, jailed or gone into exile the movement is effectively dead.
June 12, 1948 Mohammed Hatta and Sukarno ask the Dutch Government in a letter published in Batavia to begin a process of gradual independence to Indonesia. Both are jailed for sedition.
July 4, 1948 Schwinn declares that men’s bicycling has doubled in the past decade, making it one of the most popular activities in America.
October 5, 1948 Japan is accepted back as a member of the League of Nations after Admiral Yamamoto put in a request for admittance as one of his last officials acts as de facto ruler of Japan.
November 2, 1948 Democrat Claude Pepper wins the US Presidential Election.

1949
February 7, 1949 With Huk influence now covering more than ¾ of the island of Luzon, the Philippines government ask the League of Nations for help in stamping this rebellion. Japan pledge air support and two SNLF brigades to help defeating the rebellion. Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain and Germany also pledge their support but in a smaller scale than Japan.
February 11, 1949 The United States, worried by how much the League and especially Japan can extend their influence over Philippines, also offers help in the form of air support, loans for the purchase of weapons and a mix Marine-Army Task Force comprised of forces already stationed in Hawaii and the West Coast of the United States.
August 14, 1949 The last British forces leave India except for the ones in the Calcutta naval station, the airbase near Bombay, and sundry other bases necessary for the defense of the Commonwealth.
October 2, 1949 The German Reichstag passes an amendment to have the Presidential election go to a run-off if there is no majority winner in the first round.
October 4, 1949 The Chinese Communist stronghold in Yennan falls to Nationalist Army. End of organized communist resistance in China. While low-level guerilla warfare will continue the threat of a Communist insurrection achieving their goal of defeating Chiang’s government is considered over.
November 1, 1949 The guerilla war in Vietnam continues with no end in sight. By now the Viet Minh is close to 45,000 men strong.
December 2, 1949 Charles de Gaulle, a hero of the French-Italian war, ordered to Indochina to take command of the forces in the region.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 03:25 AM

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 03:30 AM

Weimar World timeline: 1960-2019

1961
October 8, 1961 The Soviet Union shocks the world by sending the first man into orbit. Funding of the North Atlantic Space Agency will increase significantly as the member nations dedicate themselves to putting a base on the moon by 1980.

1969
June 2, 1969 NASA sends the first men to the moon (symbolically, a German, American, and Briton).
August 11, 1969 Germans celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the Weimar Constitution (date of its announcement).

1979
August 20, 1979 The NASA moon base, a capsule buried under the lunar soil, goes into operation, a year ahead of the deadline set in 1961.

2019
August 11, 2019 The date of the Centennial celebration of the Weimar Consitution and the German Republic.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 03:36 AM

Here are my choices at present for the winners of the US presidential elections.

1940 Arthur Vandenberg
1944 Arthur Vandenberg
1948 Claude Pepper (assassinated 1950, VP Harry Truman becomes POTUS)
1952 Harry S Truman
1956 Adlai Stevenson (Harry Truman didn't run again)
1960 Thomas Dewey
1964 Thomas Dewey
1968 Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
1972 Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
1976 Ronald Reagan
1980 Ronald Reagan

After 1980, there is a good chance that we would see different people in the White House due to diverging history and butterflies, so the names become irrelevant.

luakel

October 8th, 2005, 04:07 AM

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 04:12 AM

Dewey in '60? Isn't that pretty late for him?

He lived OTL 1971.

He was a popular Governor of New York in the 1940s.

Really, he was almost too young to run in the 1940s.

I'd have liked to have seen him up against the Dem candidate in 1956 and win, and maybe even Truman in 1952, but it isn't too much of a stretch to think that the butterflies extended out his political career ITTL than in OTL.

My alternatives would be:

1952 Harry S Truman
1956 Thomas Dewey
1960 Thomas Dewey
1964 Republican?
1968 Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
1972 Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
1976 Ronald Reagan
1980 Ronald Reagan

or

1952 Harry S Truman
1956 Thomas Dewey
1960 Thomas Dewey
1964 Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
1968 Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
1972 Dem?
1976 Ronald Reagan
1980 Ronald Reagan

But then we lose Stevenson, who several people suggested as a choice.

luakel

October 8th, 2005, 04:22 AM

1949-50: Claude Pepper/Harry S. Truman Democrat (assassinated)
1950-53: Harry S. Truman/Not Avaliable Democrat
1953-57: Adlai Stevenson/Averill Harriman Democrat
1957-61: Adlai Stevenson/Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. Democrat
1961-65: Joseph P. Kennedy Jr./Hubert H. Humphrey Democrat
1965-69: Barry Goldwater/Richard Nixon Republican
1969-73: Barry Goldwater/Nelson Rockfeller Republican
1973-75: Robert F. Kennedy/Edmund Muskie Democrat (assassinated)
1975-77: Edmund Muskie/Not Availiable Democrat
1977-81: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican
1981-85: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican

Here's my ideal list for the main Weimar TL. It's almost too bad about butterflies keeping OTL figures from appearing... :(

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 04:34 AM

Here's my ideal list for the main Weimar TL.

1949-50: Claude Pepper/Harry S. Truman Democrat (assassinated)
1950-53: Harry S. Truman/Not Avaliable Democrat
1953-57: Adlai Stevenson/Averill Harriman Democrat
1957-61: Adlai Stevenson/Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. Democrat
1961-65: Joseph P. Kennedy Jr./Hubert H. Humphrey Democrat
1965-69: Barry Goldwater/Richard Nixon Republican
1969-73: Barry Goldwater/Nelson Rockfeller Republican
1973-75: Robert F. Kennedy/Edmund Muskie Democrat (assassinated)
1975-77: Edmund Muskie/Not Availiable Democrat
1977-81: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican
1981-85: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican

It's almost too bad about butterflies keeping OTL figures from appearing... :(

Yes, I know. I referred to it often when making my own choices.

First, I don't see Truman not running at all, when 1952 rolls around. And I think he'd likely be in a fairly good position to do so in '52.

I also, for some strange reason, have trouble seeing Stevenson as more than a one term president. Don't have a good reason why, just sort of a gut thing.

I do think that Joe Jr. could go for two terms. In this timeline he wouldn't die with no WWII.

Why are you skipping JFK? Think his Addison's Disease might sideline him from a presidential bid if it came later due to his older brother 'going first'?

There likely would be a Kennedy in politics named RFK, but he would be a somewhat different person from OTL RFK. Also, why have him assassinated again?

I think Goldwater was too ascerbic to really win a presidential election, especially in this timeline where it is less the burden of the USA to be the protector of the free world.

Hey, you've gotten Claude killed and Truman in office, and I did get Adlai in there for one term, and put in both Joe Jr. and Reagan for the nods...

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 04:39 AM

I don't see Nixon and Goldwater on the same ticket.
Yeah, same here, now that I look at it. Would Rocky be OK in '65? Him and Goldwater kind of counter each other.

Ditto here. Though I don't think Goldwater would take Rockefeller as his VEEP either...too liberal for him.

BTW, I really don't want to see Dewey as president in this TL. By the '60's, his time in the spotlight has passed.

That was OTL. There are any number of reasons we might see his time in the spotlight delayed and/or extended.

Maybe I'll just get rid of Stevenson's one term...

luakel

October 8th, 2005, 04:42 AM

Why are you skipping JFK? Think his Addison's Disease might sideline him from a presidential bid if it came later due to his older brother 'going first'?

There likely would be a Kennedy in politics named RFK, but he would be a somewhat different person from OTL RFK. Also, why have him assassinated again?
JFK would likely be out of it, with the Kennedy ambition fulfilled. RFK, on the other hand, will be a fresh change after 8 years of Goldwater's conservatism.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 04:48 AM

1949-50: Claude Pepper/Harry S. Truman Democrat (assassinated)
1950-53: Harry S. Truman/Not Avaliable Democrat
1953-57: Harry S. Truman/Averill Harriman Democrat

Okay.

1957-61: Averill Harriman/Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. Democrat

I'd prefer Dewey here.

1961-65: Joseph P. Kennedy Jr./Hubert H. Humphrey Democrat

Why are you having Harriman one term, but then Joe Jr. Did he die?

1965-69: Barry Goldwater/Nelson Rockfeller Republican
1969-73: Barry Goldwater/Nelson Rockfeller Republican

While it would balance the ticket, I don't see Goldwater accepting Rockefeller as his running mate. I also don't see Goldwater winning the presidency due to his being too hard conservative for the times. Reagan was able to bring on the Conservative Revolution because he was able to sell it with a joke and a smile.

1973-75: Robert F. Kennedy/James Carter Democrat (assassinated)
1975-77: James Carter/Not Availiable Democrat

Again, why RFK instead of JFK? And while I can buy a doppleganger of RFK running given the heavy political tradition of this family, I don't see the same being likely for Carter, who was born some years after the POD. Also, why is Carter having an earlier rise ITTL?

1977-81: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican
1981-85: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican

Reagan's okay...he's almost impervious to TTL's fluctuations as he was born years before the POD and had a career that would be little effected by the changes in the timeline. But Bob Dole was born after the POD, AND would not have WWII.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 04:50 AM

JFK would likely be out of it, with the Kennedy ambition fulfilled. RFK, on the other hand, will be a fresh change after 8 years of Goldwater's conservatism.

That doesn't make sense to me, unless you are postulating a few unsuccessful runs and/or illness preventing him. JFK, RFK, AND Teddy all ran for president in OTL. Why would JFK sit it out ITTL but not RFK, Joe Jr. or not?

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 04:53 AM

QUOTE (luakel @ Oct 8 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (Glen Finney @ Oct 8 2005, 04:38 AM)
That was OTL. There are any number of reasons we might see his time in the spotlight delayed and/or extended.

Even so, he wouldn't even be the best president. I don't see why Oth likes him so much...

Any alternatives to Goldwater in the '60's then?

Won't be the 'best president' by what standard?

He was a successful DA, and a popular Governor of New York. He was a moderate internationalist IOTL by the time we would be having him go into office ITTL. Tell me why you DON'T like him....

Actually, if you want another Republican for the 1960s, I think Nixon is likely....

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 05:05 AM

Like I've said before, I don't like Dewey, and I don't really see why you guys want him anyway.

I do like him. He looks like he'd make a good, level-headed president. And he almost took the presidency from Truman in '48 OTL. I'll move him up to the '56 election if that would seem more probable, but I want some reasons, not just 'I don't like Dewey' if we're to drop him entirely.

Maybe he just decided to quit the job? There have been tons of one-term presidents in the past century.

No, there have not been tons. And there has usually been a darned good reason for when they were only one termers.

Well, who else would you suggest? And I don't mean Dewey.
If it isn't Dewey, I think the next Republican president might very well have been Nixon ITTL.

Because JFK really had other things he likely wanted to do with his life (he was involved in Hollywood, IIRC).

I bet all those Kennedys had such ideas; but pappa Joe seemed to have engrained in them other ideas about politics. I don't see JFK sitting it out, not him and THEN RFK in.

I can change Carter back to Muskie though...

That would be better.

Just because someone is born after the POD doesn't mean they will be completely different. And Dole could still rise to power, even without WWII.

No it doesn't, and you are right, he could have. However, becoming president is such a rare thing, that it is only those who have that special combination of traits who are likely to make it into contention to the top office in the land. The exception for that are political dynasties where the whole family seems to be driven by political service, like the Kennedys, or the Bushes for that matter.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 05:07 AM

QUOTE (luakel @ Oct 8 2005, 12:57 AM)
QUOTE (Glen Finney @ Oct 8 2005, 04:53 AM)
QUOTE (luakel @ Oct 8 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (Glen Finney @ Oct 8 2005, 04:38 AM)
That was OTL. There are any number of reasons we might see his time in the spotlight delayed and/or extended.

Even so, he wouldn't even be the best president. I don't see why Oth likes him so much...

Any alternatives to Goldwater in the '60's then?

Won't be the 'best president' by what standard?

He was a successful DA, and a popular Governor of New York. He was a moderate internationalist IOTL by the time we would be having him go into office ITTL. Tell me why you DON'T like him....

Actually, if you want another Republican for the 1960s, I think Nixon is likely....

Well, he was quite controlling and relied on polls way too much. He didn't run active campaigns with the people, and he was actually an isolationist before WWII. Without a WWII with the US involved, why would he change?

Nixon sounds OK though...

Quite controlling and relied on polls too much? Sounds like most politicians.

The Isolationist not switching to Internationalism bit without WWII is a valid point, however.

I will think about it.

I'll be interested to hear what Oth has to say about it...

Othniel

October 8th, 2005, 05:08 AM

Wasn't Dewey killed in OTL by mobsters?

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 05:10 AM

QUOTE (luakel @ Oct 8 2005, 01:00 AM)
QUOTE (Glen Finney @ Oct 8 2005, 04:51 AM)
QUOTE (luakel)
JFK would likely be out of it, with the Kennedy ambition fulfilled. RFK, on the other hand, will be a fresh change after 8 years of Goldwater's conservatism.

That doesn't make sense to me, unless you are postulating a few unsuccessful runs and/or illness preventing him. JFK, RFK, AND Teddy all ran for president in OTL. Why would JFK sit it out ITTL but not RFK, Joe Jr. or not?

Well, I was going to have illness weaken him. His Addison's really makes him sickly, and after Joe Sr. gets one of his sons in the White House, he decides to skip over JFK and go straight to RFK.

BTW Glen, why are you posting every single thing both here and at AH?

I think it is reasonable to postulate JFK dropping out for health reasons. It is entirely possible that with his older brother taking up the 1960s, that by the late 60s/early 70s he'd be too sick to run.

I am cross posting so that both groups can take part in the discussion if so inclined. Not everyone is on both sites.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 05:11 AM

Wasn't Dewey killed in OTL by mobsters?

What, in 1971? The man was old and retired for decades.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 05:13 AM

1949-50: Claude Pepper/Harry S. Truman Democrat (assassinated)
1950-53: Harry S. Truman/Not Avaliable Democrat
1953-57: Harry S. Truman/Averill Harriman Democrat
1957-61: Joseph P. Kennedy Jr./Hubert H. Humphrey Democrat
1961-65: Joseph P. Kennedy Jr./Hubert H. Humphrey Democrat
1965-69: Richard M. Nixon/Nelson Rockfeller Republican
1969-73: Richard M. Nixon/Nelson Rockfeller Republican
1973-75: Robert F. Kennedy/Edmund Muskie Democrat (assassinated)
1975-77: Edmund Muskie/Not Availiable Democrat
1977-81: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican
1981-85: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican

Last list for tonight. See y'all tomorrow..

Better, but I still think you have people dropping out for unclear reasons, and why are you assassinating RFK again?

luakel

October 8th, 2005, 03:43 PM

Better, but I still think you have people dropping out for unclear reasons, and why are you assassinating RFK again?
Oh, the dropping out means that the people you'd expect to take the presidency got defeated on the way, either in the primaries or the election itself. For example, HHH runs and is defeated by Nixon. RFK: I think that he will be very much the same as in OTL. Of course, less progressive without JFK's assassination, but still somewhat the same. And I have read that many around him said that it was in his eyes: He knew that it was going to happen to him at some point. In TTL, I have allowed him to acheive the greatest position in the US before being assassinated. Just assume that one of the attempted killers of Ford kills him.

BTW, I'll post a hypothetical US president list for my Weimar World II soon...

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 04:32 PM

Oh, the dropping out means that the people you'd expect to take the presidency got defeated on the way, either in the primaries or the election itself. For example, HHH runs and is defeated by Nixon.

I looked at your revised list and see it now; I withdraw the 'dropping out' complaint.

RFK: I think that he will be very much the same as in OTL. Of course, less progressive without JFK's assassination, but still somewhat the same. And I have read that many around him said that it was in his eyes: He knew that it was going to happen to him at some point. In TTL, I have allowed him to acheive the greatest position in the US before being assassinated. Just assume that one of the attempted killers of Ford kills him.

First, RFK was born a full five years after our POD. Now granted, there shouldn't be that much effect on the USA from our POD yet. However, butterflies dictate that we probably see the man (or even woman!) born to the Kennedys that year as a sibling to OTL RFK, but genetically a different mix. However, given the dynastic nature of this family, I could see that sibling (if male, unfortunately we haven't had changes that would give us a woman president in the late 60s/early 70s) going after the presidency, and he could be named RFK also. But to say that this is the same man is unlikely, and make reference to OTL people 'seeing it in his eyes' irrelevant. To say, on the other hand, that more than one of Joe Sr.'s boys would run for president is very relevant and even likely.

I don't see why we need to have two presidential assassinations in this century and timeline.

BTW, I'll post a hypothetical US president list for my Weimar World II soon...

Go for it...

perdedor99

October 8th, 2005, 04:50 PM

I like Stevenson in 1956. The problem it was he was perceived by many as an intellectual and not a man of the masses. Also Dewey makes a good choice but if the US joins the League, it's possible IMO a Dewey administration goes back into isolitionist.

if Joe jr. is the POTUS, IMO is too late for JFK. And it depends of how succesful the first Kennedy presidency was. The Kennedy aura was the one that made RFK a succesful candidate. If Joe jr. presidency is one without any highlights or a terrible one it could hurt the chances of his brothers for the top spot.

perdedor99

October 8th, 2005, 05:02 PM

Some issues to resolve in the 50's

Palestine:
partition in 1949. How that will goes?

USSR:
Stalin dies in 1953. Who will replace him as leader? This is a more Asian centered Soviet Union, with puppets in Manchuria and Korea plus the annexed Sinkiang. While in Europe the Baltic States still exist and the Finnish borders are OTL pre-1939.

South America:
IIRC Oth mentioned a Red victory in Argentina in the middle of the decade. What will be the effects of that? reactions of a Stevenson or a Dewey administration?

Africa:
What is going on there?

Far East:
Indonesia is on fire, what will be the eventual result?
Same in Indochina, will the VietMihn eventually wins?

France:
This France is in a stronger position that in OTL. No WW2. They won the first round in IndoChina plus they gained Libya and Sardinia in the Franco-Italian war. But they are politically isolated IMO. What will be their eventual result?

Just some thoughts to start the fifties discussion if we accept the events to 1949 as official

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 05:20 PM

I like Stevenson in 1956. The problem it was he was perceived by many as an intellectual and not a man of the masses. Also Dewey makes a good choice but if the US joins the League, it's possible IMO a Dewey administration goes back into isolitionist.

So, would Stevenson be electable, and would he be able to sustain a two term presidency?

It sounds like we're thinking that Dewey would be liable to remain Isolationist in this timeline, and thus it would be too late to have him for a president in the 1950s and still benefit Germany.

if Joe jr. is the POTUS, IMO is too late for JFK.

I think for health reasons this might be so.

And it depends of how succesful the first Kennedy presidency was. The Kennedy aura was the one that made RFK a succesful candidate. If Joe jr. presidency is one without any highlights or a terrible one it could hurt the chances of his brothers for the top spot.

Right. Camelot is liable to lose a lot of allure by the second term. Joe Jr., interestingly enough, might well have as his first lady Jackie's cousin.

perdedor99

October 8th, 2005, 05:27 PM

So, would Stevenson be electable, and would he be able to sustain a two term presidency?
I think so. The presidency of Truman IMO sounds like a very succesful one so far and Stevenson will benefit from this. The chances of a two term depend of how is viewed by the people. For what I have read people tend to see him as an intellectual, aloof from the common man, and that can hurt him if some kind of crisis occurs that need his leadership IMO.

It sounds like we're thinking that Dewey would be liable to remain Isolationist in this timeline, and thus it would be too late to have him for a president in the 1950s and still benefit Germany.

At least I think that.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 05:44 PM

Some issues to resolve in the 50's

Palestine:
partition in 1949. How that will goes?

Actually, we already have a partition in 1947 ITTL. It goes through, mostly due to the British wanting it to. There is a large British mandate still around and including Jerusalem. Israel is a small part of Northwest Palestine, with a separate Palestine in the rest.

So we have two states this time from the get-go. And neither are in possession of Jerusalem.

I think we see the two continue to exist, but we see terrorists and paramilitaries on both sides, ala Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland conflict OTL.

USSR:
Stalin dies in 1953. Who will replace him as leader? This is a more Asian centered Soviet Union, with puppets in Manchuria and Korea plus the annexed Sinkiang. While in Europe the Baltic States still exist and the Finnish borders are OTL pre-1939.

Yeah. We have to figure that one out. I want a change in leadership that will still reveal the barbarity of the Stalin years. And I wouldn't mind more reform in this group. They are definitely still focused more on gains and influence in Asia, though, being effectively blocked in Europe (and facing a nuclear/rocket armed Germany, though a democratic one).

South America:
IIRC Oth mentioned a Red victory in Argentina in the middle of the decade. What will be the effects of that? reactions of a Stevenson or a Dewey administration?

I removed that from the timeline for now. I think Uruguay red can be tolerated. If Argentina were to go red, I think we see US intervention big time. So, the question is do we let Argentina develop in a less Communist way, or do we see the US get involved in a war against Communism in Argentina? I personally lean towards the first option.

Africa:
What is going on there?

A more gradual reform. France is forming her colonies into a Union, and the British Commonwealth is a much more tangible entity in this timeline than ours.

For most nations, this will end up being for the better. However, we'll still see a lot of racism and European dominance in several African nations for decades, though in a way it may be less severe, in that the white minorities won't feel quite as threatened with their European parent nations backing them. On the other hand, several of those might gradually start exerting pressure for more equitable treatment of African peoples.

Far East:
Indonesia is on fire, what will be the eventual result?

Hmmm...the Dutch get thrown out or give 'em independence?

Same in Indochina, will the VietMihn eventually wins?

I actually see the VietMinh fizzling out. With a stronger France and a non Communist China, they are likely to do less well. The USSR support may still be there, though....

Hmmm, maybe Indochina just settles down and gets more autonomy within the French Union system, and Indonesia becomes TTL's Vietnam?

France:
This France is in a stronger position that in OTL. No WW2. They won the first round in IndoChina plus they gained Libya and Sardinia in the Franco-Italian war. But they are politically isolated IMO. What will be their eventual result?

The fact that Germany kept their word in the Tunisian War has probably done a lot to improve relations. And by the 1950s, there has been peace between the nations for over thirty years. While they won't join any alliances or anything, I can see them having good relations with the rest of Europe for the entire latter half of the century. Besides which, France is going to have its hands full dealing with the formation and evolution of the French Union.

Just some thoughts to start the fifties discussion if we accept the events to 1949 as official

I think we're pretty set for the 1940s. Anything people think we need to change? Additions that don't violate what has gone before are always possible.

Othniel

October 8th, 2005, 05:57 PM

I'm going to say no on Dewey in the fifties unless he is a single term president or prehaps a vice president. I also doubt Ronald Reagan at this point because we haven't had any minor wars. I said before I need to see the scenario in which they'd be elected before we have them elected. I'll find out who was eligible during the 50s and name who I think would be likely presidents.

perdedor99

October 8th, 2005, 06:09 PM

Actually, we already have a partition in 1947 ITTL. It goes through, mostly due to the British wanting it to. There is a large British mandate still around and including Jerusalem. Israel is a small part of Northwest Palestine, with a separate Palestine in the rest.

So we have two states this time from the get-go. And neither are in possession of Jerusalem.

I think we see the two continue to exist, but we see terrorists and paramilitaries on both sides, ala Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland conflict OTL.

I agree with this analysis, but what will be the reaction of the Arab world? They are more moderate people in charge, with Abdullah in Jordan and Farouk in Egypt but IMO the area is a possible conflict area. This time the colonial powers been the enemy of the Soviets. With better educated Syrians, Iraquis and Egyptians seeing their nations as not truly free the possibility of anticolonialism parties is very real. Also the Soviets could be very happy supplying arms to either faction in the Palestine area.

Yeah. We have to figure that one out. I want a change in leadership that will still reveal the barbarity of the Stalin years. And I wouldn't mind more reform in this group. They are definitely still focused more on gains and influence in Asia, though, being effectively blocked in Europe (and facing a nuclear/rocket armed Germany, though a democratic one).

I disagree. Any leader that acquires power so soon after Stalin still have to cover his back from any sympathizers still left in the government of the former regime. Also in OTL not even Khruschek dared to do it. I still see some hardcore communist going on for a while.

I removed that from the timeline for now. I think Uruguay red can be tolerated. If Argentina were to go red, I think we see US intervention big time. So, the question is do we let Argentina develop in a less Communist way, or do we see the US get involved in a war against Communism in Argentina? I personally lean towards the first option.

Let take that to a vote. But I agree that Argentina going Red will turn this into this TL US Vietnam. I say they go Red so we can spice the presidency of Stevenson:rolleyes: The crisis we need to discuss if he's a one or a two term president.

A more gradual reform. France is forming her colonies into a Union, and the British Commonwealth is a much more tangible entity in this timeline than ours.

For most nations, this will end up being for the better. However, we'll still see a lot of racism and European dominance in several African nations for decades, though in a way it may be less severe, in that the white minorities won't feel quite as threatened with their European parent nations backing them. On the other hand, several of those might gradually start exerting pressure for more equitable treatment of African peoples.

I agree. IMO OTL moves of the 1960's asking for outright independence are being moved into the 1980's or later ITTL.

Hmmm...the Dutch get thrown out or give 'em independence?

I think they give independence after a long war, with undercover Japanese and Chinese support ot the rebels.

I actually see the VietMinh fizzling out. With a stronger France and a non Communist China, they are likely to do less well. The USSR support may still be there, though....

Hmmm, maybe Indochina just settles down and gets more autonomy within the French Union system, and Indonesia becomes TTL's Vietnam?

The Chinese always have designs on the area. But is very possible. With Vietnimization of the armed forces and more stability after a long war is possible they just asked for full independence in the late 1970's.:rolleyes:

The fact that Germany kept their word in the Tunisian War has probably done a lot to improve relations. And by the 1950s, there has been peace between the nations for over thirty years. While they won't join any alliances or anything, I can see them having good relations with the rest of Europe for the entire latter half of the century. Besides which, France is going to have its hands full dealing with the formation and evolution of the French Union.

I think France will suffer some setbacks. While they seem strong. Close to six years of war in IndoChina(1945-1951) so far, a very costly Franco-Italian war and the administration of the Empire must be taking a toll in their economy. IMO the creation of the French Union could be a reaction to ease the toll to the nations economy and share more of the burden of running the thing with the colonies. Will it be succesfull? We need to take a vote I guess. IMO a fifty-fifty chance of success. IndoChina is too far and I think they will choose full independence, plus the Middle East is an area that could turn into a conflictive one during the 1950's and 60's.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 07:17 PM

I agree with this analysis, but what will be the reaction of the Arab world?

Probably irritation at the existence of the extremist terrorists who take refuge in Israel minor, but not really concerned about the existence of Israel minor itself. It basically borders Lebanon, the British Jerusalem Mandate, and Palestine.

They are more moderate people in charge, with Abdullah in Jordan and Farouk in Egypt but IMO the area is a possible conflict area.

Possibly, but what form? I see a lot more guerilla and terrorist type actions than outright wars.

This time the colonial powers being the enemy of the Soviets. With better educated Syrians, Iraquis and Egyptians seeing their nations as not truly free the possibility of anticolonialism parties is very real.

Interesting thoughts. Yes, instead of the Cold War between the US and the Soviets, we'll see multiaxis contention, and some of that will be the two big colonial powers, Britain and France, versus the Soviets. Very good point.

Also the Soviets could be very happy supplying arms to either faction in the Palestine area.

True. I wonder which they'd favor, though? Probably the Palestinian Arab side, since they're geopolitical goal will still be to increase their influence on the oil producing areas of the Middle East, which will favor that side.

I disagree. Any leader that acquires power so soon after Stalin still have to cover his back from any sympathizers still left in the government of the former regime.

That's what political purges are for. No, it will be gradual, and it won't be whirlwind reform, but I think we can see de-Stalinization full tilt.

Also in OTL not even Khruschek dared to do it. I still see some hardcore communist going on for a while.

Agreed, but maybe more emphasis on a sort of detente with the West?

Let take that to a vote. But I agree that Argentina going Red will turn this into this TL US Vietnam. I say they go Red so we can spice the presidency of Stevenson:rolleyes: The crisis we need to discuss if he's a one or a two term president.

Well, I'd like to see more reason than just fixing the president's list for Argentina trying to go Red. But make your cases, folks. The one thing I will say is that I don't believe Argentina ITTL will be able to go Red without major US interference being triggered. This US is less involved in global geopolitics, meaning more focused on their hemisphere. And the USSR is less likely to risk antagonism with the US, since they don't need to counter the US in Europe.

I agree. IMO OTL moves of the 1960's asking for outright independence are being moved into the 1980's or later ITTL.

But will it come to outright independence? I just wonder...

I think they give independence after a long war, with undercover Japanese and Chinese support ot the rebels.

I'll leave the details to y'all on that one.

The Chinese always have designs on the area. But is very possible. With Vietnimization of the armed forces and more stability after a long war is possible they just asked for full independence in the late 1970's.:rolleyes:

Maybe. Wouldn't it be interesting to see a newly independent Vietnam arising as an 'Asian Tiger', whereas Indonesia is still struggling with the aftermath of a prolonged struggle....

I think France will suffer some setbacks. While they seem strong. Close to six years of war in IndoChina(1945-1951) so far, a very costly Franco-Italian war and the administration of the Empire must be taking a toll in their economy. IMO the creation of the French Union could be a reaction to ease the toll to the nations economy and share more of the burden of running the thing with the colonies. Will it be succesfull? We need to take a vote I guess. IMO a fifty-fifty chance of success. IndoChina is too far and I think they will choose full independence, plus the Middle East is an area that could turn into a conflictive one during the 1950's and 60's.

Well, y'all keep writing events with specific dates for it, and we shall see. I think a France preoccupied with holding together in some semblance its former empire would certainly be good for the German Republic.

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 07:25 PM

We need to return our focus in the 1950s to what is going on in Europe, and particularly Germany and her neighbors.

I think we see Hungary reforming over time, and eventually coming wholly into the German sphere of influence.

We could see an earlier move towards greater European integration under German leadership.

Poland is an issue we haven't even touched on, and must. They are going to be hurting rather badly.

The way I see it, in the 1950s they have three possible paths.

A) Continue to languish as a paranoid, isolationist, repressive nation sinking into financial ruin.

B) Bite the bullet and make a rapproachmont with Germany and the Alliance, and reap the benefits of peace and security and greater trade, though with the end of their hopes of ever recovering their coast.

C) Communist takeover and they become a satellite of the USSR, really pissing off the Alliance and keeping them on heightened security to the East. By the 1950s, with both Germany and the USSR nuclear, I don't think they'll go to full war over Poland. Another possible variation - Poland has a civil war between Communists and others, with the East going Communist and West Poland joining the Alliance. Maybe a tense stand-off (TTL's Cuban Missile Crisis?) before the sides agree to split the baby, as it were?

Glen

October 8th, 2005, 08:17 PM

When will the SPD slip from leadership in Germany. They managed to come into power in 1947. By the mid-1950s, I think the country might start swinging back to the right. Otto Braun won the presidency as a senior statesman, and reelection by a thread, but dies in 1955. Would there be enough good will to bring another SPD member into the presidency? I'm actually thinking about having Adenauer win the new election in 1955. IOTL he chose not to run because the presidency was weak, but the Reichspraesident is a stronger position than OTL Federal Republic president. Or we could see Erich Ollendar move from Chancellor to President. I think the SPD is going to lose the Chancellory sometime in the mid 50s, and it might be interesting to have a split government more. Opinions, comments?

luakel

October 8th, 2005, 10:51 PM

OK, here's my final proposed list for the Presidency:

1949-50: Claude Pepper/Harry S. Truman Democrat (assassinated)
1950-53: Harry S. Truman/Not Avaliable Democrat
1953-57: Harry S. Truman/Averill Harriman Democrat
1957-61: Joseph P. Kennedy Jr./Hubert H. Humphrey Democrat
1961-65: Joseph P. Kennedy Jr./Hubert H. Humphrey Democrat
1965-69: Richard M. Nixon/Nelson Rockfeller Republican
1969-73: Richard M. Nixon/Nelson Rockfeller Republican
1973-77: Robert F. Kennedy/Edmund Muskie Democrat
1977-81: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican
1981-85: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican

I presume that RFK attempts a second run in 1977, but fails against the charismatic and influental Reagan. Also, I think that we should just forget about Stevenson at this point...

luakel

October 8th, 2005, 11:43 PM

And here's my planned list for WWII, up to 1961:

1933-1937: Franklin D. Roosevelt/John N. Garner Democrat
1937-1941: Franklin D. Roosevelt/John N. Garner Democrat
1941-1944: Wendell Wilkie/Harry S. Truman (died in office) Democrat
1944-1945: Harry S. Truman/Not Available Democrat
1945-1949: Robert A. Taft/Harold Stassen Republican
1949-1953: Robert A. Taft/Thomas E. Dewey Republican
1953-1957: Harry S. Truman/Averill Harriman Democrat
1957-1961: Douglas MacArthur/Richard M. Nixon Republican

perdedor99

October 9th, 2005, 02:19 AM

September 7th 1954: King Farouk of Egypt died of what is considered heart failure after a state dinner. His infant son, Farouk II, succeeds him. A regent council is created to rule until the time the boy can assume his role as King.

November 8th 1955: First joint military exercises between Chinese and Japanese celebrated in Formosa thru the month.

August 5th 1959: Philippines accepts invitation to join the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere. Changed to East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere with the Philippines joining the Japanese and the Chinese in this economic alliance.

February 17th 1958: Netherlands accepted in the Northern European Alliance but was dismayed when other member nations refused to get involved in the bloodbath in the East Indies.

March 16th 1962: After close to ten years of war the Netherlands agreed to a ceasefire to begin negotiations to end the war. By now the islands of Sumatra and Borneo are, except for some small enclaves, under the control of the rebels plus guerilla activity exist in all the islands in the archipelago.

March 19th 1962: The Imperial Japanese and the Kuomintang governments recognize the Indonesian rebel government as the representative of the Indonesian people. The cover help to the Indonesian movement since late 1957 was suspected but not verified until secret files of both the Chinese and Japanese governments were declassified in the early 21st century.

November 16th 1951: An anti-Semitic campaign masterminded and planned for years by Lavrenty Beria and Georgy Malenkov finally ends with the arrest of thousands of Jewish doctors and other professionals as traitors to the Soviet Union. The deportations and casualties in the Jewish community will continue until the dead of Stalin in 1953.

May 12th 1953: Georgy Malenkov announced as the successor of Joseph Stalin as leader of the Soviet Union.

Wendell

October 9th, 2005, 02:39 AM

I agree with this analysis, but what will be the reaction of the Arab world? They are more moderate people in charge, with Abdullah in Jordan and Farouk in Egypt but IMO the area is a possible conflict area. This time the colonial powers been the enemy of the Soviets. With better educated Syrians, Iraquis and Egyptians seeing their nations as not truly free the possibility of anticolonialism parties is very real. Also the Soviets could be very happy supplying arms to either faction in the Palestine area.

I disagree. Any leader that acquires power so soon after Stalin still have to cover his back from any sympathizers still left in the government of the former regime. Also in OTL not even Khruschek dared to do it. I still see some hardcore communist going on for a while.

Let take that to a vote. But I agree that Argentina going Red will turn this into this TL US Vietnam. I say they go Red so we can spice the presidency of Stevenson:rolleyes: The crisis we need to discuss if he's a one or a two term president.

I agree. IMO OTL moves of the 1960's asking for outright independence are being moved into the 1980's or later ITTL.

I think they give independence after a long war, with undercover Japanese and Chinese support ot the rebels.

The Chinese always have designs on the area. But is very possible. With Vietnimization of the armed forces and more stability after a long war is possible they just asked for full independence in the late 1970's.:rolleyes:

I think France will suffer some setbacks. While they seem strong. Close to six years of war in IndoChina(1945-1951) so far, a very costly Franco-Italian war and the administration of the Empire must be taking a toll in their economy. IMO the creation of the French Union could be a reaction to ease the toll to the nations economy and share more of the burden of running the thing with the colonies. Will it be succesfull? We need to take a vote I guess. IMO a fifty-fifty chance of success. IndoChina is too far and I think they will choose full independence, plus the Middle East is an area that could turn into a conflictive one during the 1950's and 60's.
Could this be the premise on which a French Imperial Republic could be built?

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 03:09 AM

September 7th 1954: King Farouk of Egypt died of what is considered heart failure after a state dinner. His infant son, Farouk II, succeeds him. A regent council is created to rule until the time the boy can assume his role as King.

We sorta did the 'suspicious natural death' schtick with Horthy. Why do you want Farouk to die like this, and where are you planning on heading with the regency?

November 8th 1955: First joint military exercises between Chinese and Japanese celebrated in Formosa thru the month.

Okay.

August 5th 1959: Philippines accepts invitation to join the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere. Changed to East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere with the Philippines joining the Japanese and the Chinese in this economic alliance.

Hmmm, seems rather provocative to the US to have the Philippines join this. I think we need to think further on Sino-Japanese-US relations in the Pacific. I don't think that either nation is going to wish to alienate the US, which is likely their largest trading partner ITTL.

February 17th 1958: Netherlands accepted in the Northern European Alliance but was dismayed when other member nations refused to get involved in the bloodbath in the East Indies.

I agree.

March 16th 1962: After close to ten years of war the Netherlands agreed to a ceasefire to begin negotiations to end the war. By now the islands of Sumatra and Borneo are, except for some small enclaves, under the control of the rebels plus guerilla activity exist in all the islands in the archipelago.

March 19th 1962: The Imperial Japanese and the Kuomintang governments recognize the Indonesian rebel government as the representative of the Indonesian people. The cover help to the Indonesian movement since late 1957 was suspected but not verified until secret files of both the Chinese and Japanese governments were declassified in the early 21st century.

Okay, though I suspect the term Kuomintang may be becoming a bit archaic by this point.

November 16th 1951: An anti-Semitic campaign masterminded and planned for years by Lavrenty Beria and Georgy Malenkov finally ends with the arrest of thousands of Jewish doctors and other professionals as traitors to the Soviet Union. The deportations and casualties in the Jewish community will continue until the dead of Stalin in 1953.

Ah, the Doctor's Plot. Interesting bit of history, but where are you planning on going with this?

May 12th 1953: Georgy Malenkov announced as the successor of Joseph Stalin as leader of the Soviet Union.

Well, that bit is close to OTL. What are you thinking about this?

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 03:10 AM

Could this be the premise on which a French Imperial Republic could be built?

I'm not certain what you mean by this in this context...

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 03:12 AM

One addition to the 1940s or early 1950s perhaps...

Sweden and the UK are sort of 'silent partners' in the formation of the NEA. I think at some point they should perhaps join outright. Also I can see perhaps the eventual membership of Norway and Denmark. Thoughts?

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 03:15 AM

Here is a map of Europe on January 1, 1940. The Dark Purple are NEA members. The Bright Yellow are Axis. The Light Yellow are authoritarian regimes not aligned. The Light Purple areas are democratic nations not aligned. The Red is Communist. Green is non-European.

perdedor99

October 9th, 2005, 03:42 AM

We sorta did the 'suspicious natural death' schtick with Horthy. Why do you want Farouk to die like this, and where are you planning on heading with the regency?

Nothing strange. Just a bit of bad luck for the man. He died like that in 1965 but why not say that it happened to him a decade earlier. He was close to 300 pounds in a small frame and not following any healthy habits. With him dead of natural causes, what will be the path the Regency junta will follow?

Hmmm, seems rather provocative to the US to have the Philippines join this. I think we need to think further on Sino-Japanese-US relations in the Pacific. I don't think that either nation is going to wish to alienate the US, which is likely their largest trading partner ITTL.

I agree. But them I can see the Japanese and the Chinese letting the US be a partner in this economic sphere. I guess we need to see who the President will be during the early and middle fifties to make this possible. But I agree that PI joining this has to be approved by the US first so closer relationships need to be develop.

Okay, though I suspect the term Kuomintang may be becoming a bit archaic by this point.

I agree.

Ah, the Doctor's Plot. Interesting bit of history, but where are you planning on going with this?

Don't really know. But if you want them to liberate in the Soviet Union some kind of alliances need to develop. A stronger anti-semitic campaign could push Molotov(married to a Jewish women) and Kaganovich (a jew by birth) into khruschek side to defeat Beria and Malenkov. Remember Zhukov won the Russo-Japanese War but his aura is not as strong as IOTL.

Well, that bit is close to OTL. What are you thinking about this?

We can say the excesses continued under Malenkov, pushing jewish emigration to Germany and Israel. When the positions of Molotov and Kaganovich are threatened they perform a palace coup with Khruschek in maybe 1954 or 1955.

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 03:51 AM

Another map of Europe, perhaps by 1960?

I can see the NEA (Dark Purple) dominating Europe. Hungary and Albania return the annexed areas of Yugoslavia as a condition of joining the Alliance.

The Light Purple is the French Union.

The Light Yellow are continuing authoritarian regimes?

The Rose are independent democracies (more or less I think Italy reforms).

Red remains communist.

Still don't know what would have happened to Poland really by this time, but I thought I'd throw it in as just puttering along for now.

We do need to lay out the evolution of the NEA, Poland, and Italy more. Also what will be going on in the Iberian peninsula.

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 04:05 AM

Nothing strange. Just a bit of bad luck for the man. He died like that in 1965 but why not say that it happened to him a decade earlier. He was close to 300 pounds in a small frame and not following any healthy habits. With him dead of natural causes, what will be the path the Regency junta will follow?

It might be interesting, at that. He was 300 pounds? Just have him die from an actual Heart Attack. He's at risk enough...

I agree. But them I can see the Japanese and the Chinese letting the US be a partner in this economic sphere. I guess we need to see who the President will be during the early and middle fifties to make this possible. But I agree that PI joining this has to be approved by the US first so closer relationships need to be develop.

True.

Don't really know. But if you want them to liberate in the Soviet Union some kind of alliances need to develop. A stronger anti-semitic campaign could push Molotov(married to a Jewish women) and Kaganovich (a jew by birth) into khruschek side to defeat Beria and Malenkov. Remember Zhukov won the Russo-Japanese War but his aura is not as strong as IOTL.

We can say the excesses continued under Malenkov, pushing jewish emigration to Germany and Israel. When the positions of Molotov and Kaganovich are threatened they perform a palace coup with Khruschek in maybe 1954 or 1955.

I like your thinking...keep running with it.

perdedor99

October 9th, 2005, 01:59 PM

Another map of Europe, perhaps by 1960?

I can see the NEA (Dark Purple) dominating Europe. Hungary and Albania return the annexed areas of Yugoslavia as a condition of joining the Alliance.
Very possible.So Albania and Hungary join the NEA. I think late 50's or early 6o's for that.

The Light Purple is the French Union.
Man, they are big. An Empire like that must be suffering some kind of economic problems. What is a good date for a rise of power for the De Gaulle. IIRC ITTL he retired in 1954 to follow a political career. He is VERY marketable candidate. Hero of both the Franco-Italian War and the IndoChina one, he's should be a strong candidate but lacking experience.

The Light Yellow are continuing authoritarian regimes?

Poland is one we need to discuss. IMO they will move in the direction of the NEA. But slowly. I think when the last of the old guard die during the 50's and 60's the younger generation don't have the grudges the old men have against the Germans and they could see the benefits of joining an economic alliance to help their economy.

Spain IOTL was kept due to the Cold War. But with the Soviets far away, what the democracies will do about that Franco guy in Spain?

The Rose are independent democracies (more or less I think Italy reforms).
Agree. Italy could move in the direction of democracy with the King helping along.

Red remains communist.
no discussion there. What I can see is the Russians, blocked in their attempts of moving in Europe, could see the Middle East as a new area to be develop.

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 02:31 PM

Eugenics was really popular in the US OTL(Hitler borrowed alot of his ideas from american eugenics() so without nazism discrediting it we see things like sterilization of black americans, prisoners, native americans. hell if t5hry continue on and on we likely see sterlization done to a majority of those populalarions.

I don't believe that the US will go in this direction. At most, you see a move towards sterilization of prisoners, but not outright moves against other races. Of course, given the history of a disproportionate amount of prisoners in the US being of color, depending on how many different types of crime the sterilization programs cover, it could be a de facto racist policy, if not overt. That might become a real issue during TTL's civil rights movement.

And I do believe there will be a civil rights movement ITTL, though it might be slightly delayed and slower.

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 04:14 PM

I could easilly see the civil rights movement being completely supressed in the south. In the north sure we may have SOME civil rights but... I could also see europe keeping its empires MUCH longer than OTL and using eugenics type laws to play hell with the demographics in the colonies.

I don't think that the lack of a Nazi Germany is enough to cause the USA to supress the Civil Rights Movement. The movement was already underway before WWII, and after WWII there were many components of it that had little directly to do with the war.

While unfavorable comparisons to the Nazis undoubtably had some benefit to the Civil Rights Movement, I do not see it as being the major drive for it or the major determinant of its success.

We do think that we see longer lasting empires ITTL, but I do not think you will see the sorts of racial eugenics programs you are suggesting in most cases, though it may be more common than OTL without the example of the Nazis.

It was not solely the odious example of the Nazis that propelled the Western World into liberalizing on Civil Rights.

Nicole

October 9th, 2005, 04:55 PM

Hm, I notice Morocco is independent but Spanish Morocco remains, well, Spanish. I'm guessing Spain will have an increasing guierilla problems in the area...

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 07:41 PM

Hm, I notice Morocco is independent but Spanish Morocco remains, well, Spanish. I'm guessing Spain will have an increasing guierilla problems in the area...

Morocco is part of the French Union, I believe...

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 08:29 PM

Here is a link to a map for Weimar Europe January 1, 1940.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion...&postcount=1045

Yugoslavia could be shredded more, perhaps?

I don't think so. Any more and it might as well have been partitioned. And if it is cut off by the land grants from non-Axis nations and/or the sea, it would basically hand Yugoslavia, perhaps the entire Balkans, to the Axis. That is why I drew the borders the way I did, using best guesses on the needs of balancing Axis demands with Allied goals from readings on the Balkan situation.

Would you care to post a map with your ideas for Yugoslavia?

Wendell

October 9th, 2005, 09:01 PM

How about this:

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 09:13 PM

Well, I was thinking that the border (particularly with Italy) might better reflect ethnic divisions...

I see what you are doing I think, essentially dividing Croatia between Hungary and Italy.

I think that Germany might go to war to prevent the linking of the Italian and Hungarian borders.

Nicole

October 9th, 2005, 09:17 PM

Morocco is part of the French Union, I believe...
Most likely more independent than Spanish Morocco, though, correct? By the way, what is the fate of the King?

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 09:18 PM

Most likely more independent than Spanish Morocco, though, correct? By the way, what is the fate of the King?

Well, not much different has happened to Morocco than OTL except that France never fell and France fought a war with Italy next door.

What do you think would have happened?

Nicole

October 9th, 2005, 09:30 PM

Well, not much different has happened to Morocco than OTL except that France never fell and France fought a war with Italy next door.

What do you think would have happened?
Well, it all depends on how much indepedence Morocco has. The more independent it is, the more problems Spain will have resisting re-unification (Assuming you have Spain go down that path, which they might)...

luakel

October 9th, 2005, 09:38 PM

1949-50: Claude Pepper/Harry S. Truman Democrat (assassinated)
1950-53: Harry S. Truman/Not Avaliable Democrat
1953-57: Harry S. Truman/Averill Harriman Democrat
1957-61: Joseph P. Kennedy Jr./Hubert H. Humphrey Democrat
1961-65: Joseph P. Kennedy Jr./Hubert H. Humphrey Democrat
1965-69: Richard M. Nixon/Nelson Rockfeller Republican
1969-73: Richard M. Nixon/Nelson Rockfeller Republican
1973-77: Robert F. Kennedy/Edmund Muskie Democrat
1977-81: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican
1981-85: Ronald Reagan/Bob Dole Republican

So, does this list sound OK to everyone?

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 09:41 PM

Hitler did take part of Slovenia in OTL....A German-Yugoslav union would be interesting....To answer your question, I was having Yugoslavia lose the mainly Catholic areas, particularly Slovenia and Croatia, but with part of Bosnia as well.

But this isn't Hitler or Nazi Germany...

I hear what you are saying with the Catholic bit, and what they are getting reflects that a bit, but they just aren't going to be allowed to keep all that, not unless they want a much larger war. I think the British will use the Germans as a stick to get Italy to play ball. That is basically the premise we've been working with for over a month now. I posted a very similar map for Yugoslavia around that time, IIRC.

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 09:43 PM

So, does this list sound OK to everyone?

I'd like to hear from some of the others first. Oth has a good point that we should probably see how the various decades work out before deciding definitely....

luakel

October 9th, 2005, 09:51 PM

Fair enough.

BTW, how do you like my Weimar World II list? Remember that a "World War II" happened in TTL, with the German-Polish War, War in the Pacific, Balkan Conflicts, and the German "Großer Kreuzzug" against the USSR...

1933-1937: Franklin D. Roosevelt/John N. Garner Democrat
1937-1941: Franklin D. Roosevelt/John N. Garner Democrat
1941-1944: Wendell Wilkie/Harry S. Truman (died in office) Democrat
1944-1945: Harry S. Truman/Not Available Democrat
1945-1949: Robert A. Taft/Harold Stassen Republican
1949-1953: Robert A. Taft/Thomas E. Dewey Republican
1953-1957: Harry S. Truman/Averill Harriman Democrat
1957-1961: Douglas MacArthur/Richard M. Nixon Republican

perdedor99

October 9th, 2005, 09:59 PM

Some things for Iran

April 7th 1951: Dr. Mossadeq elected Prime Minister of Iran. He formally nationalized the nation’s oil industry.

September 1951: Great Britain declares an embargo aimed at the nation of Iran. Great Britain challenge of the nationalization of the oil industry failed after the League’s International Court ruled in favor of Iran. Still Iranian economy began to suffer due to the lack of foreign exchange and oil revenues.

March 17th 1952: General Fazhollah Zahedi attempt of a coup fails due to the Shah’s doubts in giving support to the General. General Zahedi goes into exile to Turkey.

April 18th 1952: New coalition government takes control of Iran. Dr. Mossadeq still on power but more National Front and Tudeh party members take control of the government. The new Minister of War was a member of the Tudeh and while the Shah was still technically the ruler of the nation the reins of power were on the hands of the Coalition.

May 17th 1952: Soviet “technicians” invited by the Tudeh Minister of War to help modernize the nation’s military.

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 10:07 PM

Fair enough.

BTW, how do you like my Weimar World II list? Remember that a "World War II" happened in TTL, with the German-Polish War, War in the Pacific, Balkan Conflicts, and the German "Großer Kreuzzug" against the USSR...

Seems fine to me. I have no objections to it. But I would recommend that you post it and your comments on the Weimar World II thread. We need to get the discussion going there....

Glen

October 9th, 2005, 10:10 PM

perdedor99

October 9th, 2005, 10:31 PM

Interesting. What was going on in Iran during the 20s-40s leading up to this, do you think?
Not much. The events in Europe on OTL didn't affect this nation until 1941 when the war forced the allies to invade to keep the communications with the Soviets open.

With the Shah dying in schedule in 1944 his son, Reza Pahlevi, will be on power. the main thing was the control the British oil industry had over the Iranian oil production. The Anglo-Iranian consortium was getting more revenues than the Iranians just by taxing the revenues of the consortium. The reason for nationalization.

With no WW2 and the US not as preocupated with events in Europe the possibility of the coup that toppled the man in OTL didn't happen. The movement was one nationalistic in nature but was viewed as possible communist due to their cooperation with the Tudeh(communist) Party. Mossadeq was very popular in Iran at the time and maybe with Soviet help he could turn into TL Nasser.

perdedor99

October 9th, 2005, 10:31 PM

Some things about Poland

September 21st 1960: Colonel Karol Wojtyla named commander of the famed 10th Motorized Division and promoted to General. The Polish Prime Minister Josef Beck called him “a rising star and the future of Poland.”

June 6th 1955: Poland signs a trade agreement with Hungary and the Central European Republic. While failing to negotiate with the Baltic States or Germany many experts considered this a move in a direction of thawing relations between the NEA and Poland.

July 19th 1954: Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov flies to Warsaw to discuss a thawing of the relations between both nations. Talks failed due to the Polish Foreign Minister’s General Komorowski-Bor to accept Soviet forces on their soil. The Poles didn’t trust the intentions of the Soviets and also the provocation the stationing of Soviet forces in Polish territory was a risk that must likely was going to be viewed as a threat to the NEA.

perdedor99

October 9th, 2005, 10:47 PM

Couple about Italy:

May 18th 1951: Alcide de Gaspari reelected Prime Minister after the short government of the Italian Social Movement under Count Galeano Ciano is disbanded by the King. The Italian’s People Party will rule the 1950’s in Italy, first under de Gaspari and later under Fernando Tromboni. A staunch Catholic and Conservative party, they moved in the direction of better relations with their neighbors during the period.

October 30th 1960: Italy grants independence to their last colony of Somaliland. The nation takes the name of Somalia. The first new African nation since the founding of South Africa.

Glen

October 10th, 2005, 05:00 AM

Who is going to make the Italians back down?

The British, using the threat of German intervention as a goad, "Well, we understand your position, Mussolini old man, but you know the Germans are likely to step in if you close off those borders, and are you quite certain you are ready for that? You know, popular sentiment in France and Britain are with the Yugoslavs as well, and if it came to a European war, it might be a bit of a sticky wicket for you, eh what?"

Or something like that...

What if the Reichsprasident or Kanzler faces challenges on the right be refusing to intervene in Yugoslavia, even if just to cut itself a piece of the pie?

At this time, it is Reichspraesident Lettow-Vorbeck, and a right or right-center government is in power in the Reichstag. What do you mean by a challenge from the right, or by refusing to intervene? If Britain and France didn't manage to broker a much smaller robbery of Yugoslavia by the Axis forces, one that left the land-link between Germany and Yugoslavia open, then the Germans WOULD have intervened, IMO.

Though it is Britain and France doing the negotiating, Germany is in the background, and Britain is very much working with Germany at this point, though still not officially.

The Yugoslav Crisis was 1940. We already decided this, I feel.

Lettow-Vorbeck and the German Republic don't really want a 'piece' of Yugoslavia. What they want is to not be surrounded by Axis nations. Why on Earth would even the right in Germany wish to have a piece of it? The only ones who might would be the Austrians in Germany, dreaming of lost Austro-Hungarian glory. But most of those who had such dreams were killed or disillusioned during the Austrian Civil War.

Glen

October 10th, 2005, 05:03 AM

Othniel

October 10th, 2005, 03:40 PM

These might be in play to the fifties, but I don't like Dewey when we are trying to increase a prointernationism approach. We need something of shock value to change that, thus I have lined up these as my nominees, and posted this both here and on OTL.com.

My presidental nominees for post-Truman;

Democratic Ticket
Pres. W. Averell Harriman-VP J. William Fulbright
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averell_Harriman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averell_Harriman)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._William_Fulbright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._William_Fulbright)

Republician Ticket
Pres. William F. Knowland-VPChristian Archibald Herter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Herter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Herter)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Knowland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Knowland)

You may improve upon my views.

Othniel

October 10th, 2005, 03:52 PM

No Silly Putty!

1950 Mar 2, Silly Putty was invented. Silly Putty was accidentally invented by Earl Warrick, a Dow scientist, while searching for a silicone-based rubber substance during WW II. [see Mar 6]
(SC, 3/2/02)(WSJ, 9/10/02, p.A1)

Without world war two we might not see Silly Putty at this time!:eek:

Othniel

October 10th, 2005, 03:59 PM

Also what about the formation of the CIA, set up in 1946 by Truman?

Take a look at this site and see if there is anything you'd want to add to the timeline, based on OTL.
http://timelines.ws/20thcent/TWENTIETHCENT.HTML

luakel

October 10th, 2005, 07:35 PM

Othniel

October 10th, 2005, 07:46 PM

Well, I had JPK Jr./HHH runing for the Dems in '57, but the GOP candidates seem OK...I like neither of them in this particular spot. I figured Truman stepped down because he was unpopular and as in OTL threw support behind Harriman as he did in OTL, which makes since because New York is still a huge state to take, and they may think Dewey would run again.New York verses New Yorker and the Democrats will most likely pull away with it. Harriman with some variation in VP.

luakel

October 10th, 2005, 07:56 PM

I like neither of them in this particular spot. I figured Truman stepped down because he was unpopular and as in OTL threw support behind Harriman as he did in OTL, which makes since because New York is still a huge state to take, and they may think Dewey would run again.New York verses New Yorker and the Democrats will most likely pull away with it. Harriman with some variation in VP.
Maybe we could compromise? Harriman/JPK run in 57, and win. Harriman is getting on in years, so he steps down and gives JPK a shot. JPK wins in 61, but loses to Tricky Dick in 65.

Othniel

October 10th, 2005, 07:58 PM

Maybe we could compromise? Harriman/JPK run in 57, and win. Harriman is getting on in years, so he steps down and gives JPK a shot. JPK wins in 61, but loses to Tricky Dick in 65.In reality its up to Glen. I'd like to hear who'd win between these... Harriman could die of Old age in office tho...

Othniel

October 10th, 2005, 08:15 PM

We could always use this fellow;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush

:D :D :D :D :D

Othniel

October 10th, 2005, 08:47 PM

Democrat's Vice Presidental Candident;

Here is what I'm looking for, in OTL there was this document called the Southern Manifesto. I'm looking for govenors, Senators, and Representives and other polticans from the former Confedrate States that opposed those that signed the document against the Brown vs Board of Education descion by the Supreme Court. Any suggests for Southern Democrats in that regard?

Glen

October 21st, 2005, 02:14 PM

A map of the Weimar World on the eve of the Second Russo-Japanese war, I think.

Glen

October 21st, 2005, 07:27 PM

p99, care to take a stab at showing where the borders between the USSR, Japan, and China would be after the Second Russo-Japanese war?

Othniel

October 21st, 2005, 07:52 PM

Isn't Iraq a British mandate at that point?

Glen

October 21st, 2005, 07:59 PM

Isn't Iraq a British mandate at that point?

British Mandate officially ended in 1932, apparently.

Glen

October 21st, 2005, 11:11 PM

World between the Second Russo-Japanese War and the Tunisian War?

Glen

October 21st, 2005, 11:11 PM

World shortly after the Tunisian War?

Glen

October 21st, 2005, 11:19 PM

World by the late 50s/early 60s?

Nicole

October 21st, 2005, 11:21 PM

Shouldn't Burma be part of India? If I recall, under British rule they were combined.

Glen

October 21st, 2005, 11:26 PM

Shouldn't Burma be part of India? If I recall, under British rule they were combined.

It was separated in 1937. Not clear to me that that would be different ITTL.

Nicole

October 21st, 2005, 11:30 PM

It was separated in 1937. Not clear to me that that would be different ITTL.
Ah, 1937? Alright then... For some reason I thought it was like Pakistan, only separated on independence.

Hm, might Japan at some point after being defeated by Russia try to expand it's hold on Southern China to the entire coast?

luakel

October 22nd, 2005, 12:41 AM

Maybe we could compromise? Harriman/JPK run in 57, and win. Harriman is getting on in years, so he steps down and gives JPK a shot. JPK wins in 61, but loses to Tricky Dick in 65.
So, does this sound OK?

BTW, Nice Map Glen. I might try and make one for WWII in 1939, to try and resurrect it...

B_Munro

October 22nd, 2005, 03:42 AM

perdedor99

October 22nd, 2005, 03:58 AM

World between the Second Russo-Japanese War and the Tunisian War?
Japan is out of China completely. Their only territory in mainland Asia is South Korea.

Bulgaroktonos

October 22nd, 2005, 04:11 AM

I would agree. As my first real contribution here, I've got to say that you might sacrifice some of Russian Manchuria for a better Japanese position there. They would likely abandon occupied China in order to gain a better position against he Russians.

Also, given the importance of Vladivostok in Russian policy in the East., I actually see Korea falling before lower Manchuria.....

Glen

October 22nd, 2005, 11:01 AM

Between Second Russo-Japanese War and Tunisian War?

Glen

October 22nd, 2005, 11:05 AM

After Tunisian War?

Glen

October 22nd, 2005, 11:10 AM

Late 50s/Early 60s

Glen

October 22nd, 2005, 11:18 AM

Is Japan holding onto N. China likely after the war with the USSR? It's not very defensible, especially since the Chinese government will probably invade, with energetic local support, once it looks like the Soviets have the Japanese on the ropes. Even if the Soviets have no real interest in the area, why leave the Japanese with any more territory contigous to the USSR than you have to?

(Very good TL overall, BTW. Labor of love).

best,
Bruce

Thatnks. I left it that way mostly until we could get comments.

Personally, I think we might have seen something of Japanese control remain in China, though likely not much. However, they could have been forced to pull out entirely due to the fight with the USSR.

B_Munro

October 22nd, 2005, 03:50 PM

Hainan ( an island) and the Shantung peninsula, perhaps?

best,
Bruce

Glen

October 22nd, 2005, 03:53 PM

Hainan ( an island) and the Shantung peninsula, perhaps?

best,
Bruce

Maybe. What does everyone think?

Nicole

October 22nd, 2005, 05:17 PM

Maybe. What does everyone think?
I agree there... maybe also that Peninsula near Hainan as well, though if i recall there was a French possession there (Without WW2, France keeps its possessions in China...)

perdedor99

October 23rd, 2005, 12:40 AM

Thatnks. I left it that way mostly until we could get comments.

Personally, I think we might have seen something of Japanese control remain in China, though likely not much. However, they could have been forced to pull out entirely due to the fight with the USSR.

That's what happened. They signed a peace treaty with China to pull their forces to fight the Russians. They gave China completely in their attempt to stop the Russians.

perdedor99

October 23rd, 2005, 12:47 AM

I agree there... maybe also that Peninsula near Hainan as well, though if i recall there was a French possession there (Without WW2, France keeps its possessions in China...)

The Japanese were forced to evacuate the whole areas in their treaty with the Chinese. They were fighting the Russians and the Chinese weren't stupid. The Chinese knew the Japanese were in a bad spot and pressed hard enough. No Japanese presence in the Continent except for South Korea. Also no Japanese presence will not distract the Kuomitang, making possible their victories over both their Communist Guerillas in the late 1940's and the defeat of the VietMihn together with the French in the early 1950's.

A continued Japanese presence in China would have resulted in an expansion of the war into China proper and if the area didn't fell into outright Soviet control, any Japanese enclaves could have made the cooperation of the Japanese and Chinese governements being formed in this TL by the middle and late 50's would not happen IMO.

luakel

October 23rd, 2005, 01:22 AM

Glen

October 23rd, 2005, 06:08 AM

As for the New Soviet lands...I think they are. Mongolia wasn't incorporated outright into the USSR, and I'm guessing the same will hold true for these others. Satellites more like OTL Eastern Europe. I think I've finally got the overall picture of what Stalin went for when deciding whether to have something be part of the USSR or a Satellite. Roughly, he seemed to incorporate into the USSR lands once part of the Russian Empire proper, whereas others were made Satellites.

Just a rough guess on my part...

luakel

November 6th, 2005, 06:26 PM

I'd say that having Japan take some territory on the coasts, along with Hainan, would probably seem reasonable to the Chinese...

Is this TL dead? :(

Straha

November 6th, 2005, 07:33 PM

Al Smith 1929-1930(D)(assasinated)
Franklin Roosevelt 1930-1933(D)
Charles Lindbergh 1933-1949 (R)
Strom Thurmond 1949-1957(D)
Joseph McCarthy 1957-1962(R)(died in office)
Spiro Agnew 1962-1969(R)
George Wallace 1969-1977(D)
Ronald Reagan 1977-1985(R)
Pat Robertson 1985-1993(D)
Lyndon La Rouche 1993-2001(D)
John Ashcroft 2001-2005(R)(assasinated)
Rick Santorum 2005-2012(R)

luakel

November 6th, 2005, 07:44 PM

Wendell

November 7th, 2005, 03:12 AM

Glen

November 13th, 2005, 01:43 AM

I'd say that having Japan take some territory on the coasts, along with Hainan, would probably seem reasonable to the Chinese...

Is this TL dead? :(

Jeesh, you focus on some other stuff for a few days, and people begin to think you're dead...;)

Glen

November 13th, 2005, 02:57 AM

Weimar World 1920s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=333218&postcount=1005

Weimar World 1930s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=333220&postcount=1006

Weimar World 1940s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=333223&postcount=1007

Weimar World 1950s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=333260&postcount=1008

Weimar World 1960-2019

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=333262&postcount=1009

Glen

November 13th, 2005, 03:11 AM

Some items previously suggested by p99 for inclusion...

September 7th 1954: King Farouk of Egypt died of what is considered heart failure after a state dinner. His infant son, Farouk II, succeeds him. A regent council is created to rule until the time the boy can assume his role as King.

November 8th 1955: First joint military exercises between Chinese and Japanese celebrated in Formosa thru the month.

August 5th 1959: Philippines accepts invitation to join the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere. Changed to East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere with the Philippines joining the Japanese and the Chinese in this economic alliance.

February 17th 1958: Netherlands accepted in the Northern European Alliance but was dismayed when other member nations refused to get involved in the bloodbath in the East Indies.

March 16th 1962: After close to ten years of war the Netherlands agreed to a ceasefire to begin negotiations to end the war. By now the islands of Sumatra and Borneo are, except for some small enclaves, under the control of the rebels plus guerilla activity exist in all the islands in the archipelago.

March 19th 1962: The Imperial Japanese and the Kuomintang governments recognize the Indonesian rebel government as the representative of the Indonesian people. The cover help to the Indonesian movement since late 1957 was suspected but not verified until secret files of both the Chinese and Japanese governments were declassified in the early 21st century.

November 16th 1951: An anti-Semitic campaign masterminded and planned for years by Lavrenty Beria and Georgy Malenkov finally ends with the arrest of thousands of Jewish doctors and other professionals as traitors to the Soviet Union. The deportations and casualties in the Jewish community will continue until the dead of Stalin in 1953.

May 12th 1953: Georgy Malenkov announced as the successor of Joseph Stalin as leader of the Soviet Union.

April 7th 1951: Dr. Mossadeq elected Prime Minister of Iran. He formally nationalized the nation’s oil industry.

September 1951: Great Britain declares an embargo aimed at the nation of Iran. Great Britain challenge of the nationalization of the oil industry failed after the League’s International Court ruled in favor of Iran. Still Iranian economy began to suffer due to the lack of foreign exchange and oil revenues.

March 17th 1952: General Fazhollah Zahedi attempt of a coup fails due to the Shah’s doubts in giving support to the General. General Zahedi goes into exile to Turkey.

April 18th 1952: New coalition government takes control of Iran. Dr. Mossadeq still on power but more National Front and Tudeh party members take control of the government. The new Minister of War was a member of the Tudeh and while the Shah was still technically the ruler of the nation the reins of power were on the hands of the Coalition.

May 17th 1952: Soviet “technicians” invited by the Tudeh Minister of War to help modernize the nation’s military.

June 6th 1955: Poland signs a trade agreement with Hungary and the Central European Republic. While failing to negotiate with the Baltic States or Germany many experts considered this a move in a direction of thawing relations between the NEA and Poland.

July 19th 1954: Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov flies to Warsaw to discuss a thawing of the relations between both nations. Talks failed due to the Polish Foreign Minister’s General Komorowski-Bor to accept Soviet forces on their soil. The Poles didn’t trust the intentions of the Soviets and also the provocation the stationing of Soviet forces in Polish territory was a risk that must likely was going to be viewed as a threat to the NEA.

May 18th 1951: Alcide de Gaspari reelected Prime Minister after the short government of the Italian Social Movement under Count Galeano Ciano is disbanded by the King. The Italian’s People Party will rule the 1950’s in Italy, first under de Gaspari and later under Fernando Tromboni. A staunch Catholic and Conservative party, they moved in the direction of better relations with their neighbors during the period.

October 30th 1960: Italy grants independence to their last colony of Somaliland. The nation takes the name of Somalia. The first new African nation since the founding of South Africa.

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 01:34 AM

Weimar World timeline: 1940-1949

1940
January 14, 1940 Brazil's manufacturing output has increased substantially over the decade, but coffee production has declined. As a result, to further placate the forces of the old order, the government between 1934-37 and under the Estado Novo also has invested considerably in the expansion of coffee production. Coffee is also the principal foreign exchange export earner.
May 12, 1940 Presidential and Reichstag elections held. President Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck in his second election becomes the first President of the Republic to win a majority on the first ballot. With the addition of Catholic Austria to the Republic, the Center party and its allied minor parties are winners as well, and the new Center Party leader Konrad Adenauer becomes Chancellor of Germany (though still in a center-right coalition government).
September 1, 1940 Romanian negotiations to join the Axis break down over demands of land concessions to Hungary and Bulgaria. Fearing that the Romanians may instead join the Alliance, Hungary launches their long considered war against Romania over Transylvania. Their allies the Bulgarians simultaneously attack into Dobruja.
September 24, 1940 The Romanians were doing well against the Italian supported Hungarians and Bulgarians when the Soviets launch a surprise action into Bessarabia. Shortly thereafter, the Romanians are forced to cede Bessarabia to the Soviets in order to save their nation from them and return their attentions to the Hungarians and Bulgarians.
October 24, 1940 Much progress has been made in Brazil since Vargas came to power ten years ago. Cement production increases to 700,000 tons from 87,000 tons in October 24, 1930. Brazil's capacity for electricity generation reachs 1 million kilowatts, of which 60 percent was located in the São Paulo area, primarily due to the construction of hydroelectric power stations. Iron and steel output went up to 150,000 tons in 1939-40. The number of manufacturing enterprises more than double during the decade leading up to this date, reaching 50,000. Factories in the São Paulo area employ 35 percent of the industrial labor force and generate 43 percent of the value of industrial production. Aside from the export of textiles, the manufacturing industries serve the domestic market almost exclusively. Brazil has 44,100 plants employing 944,000 workers; the comparable figure for December 31, 1920 was 13,336 plants with about 300,000 workers.
November 5, 1940 Arthur Vandenberg is elected President of the United States of America.
December 25, 1940 Romanian soldiers and civilians celebrate as the last of Hungarian and Bulgarian forces retreat from Romania.

1941
January 20, 1941 Romania joins the Northern European Alliance.
February 19, 1941 Communist activist Ho Chi Minh returns to Vietnam after 30 years in exile and organizes a nationalist organization named the Viet Minh.
June 1, 1941 As relations with Japan remain strained, and Europe seems more risky with both the Northern European Alliance and Axis Pact of Steel to deal with, Stalin begins a secret military build up on the Manchurian-Soviet and the Mongolian-Manchurian border, with Geory Zhukov in command.
July 30, 1941 By the end of the month 30 Russian divisions are in the Far East, the Soviets have an advantage 2:1 in men, 4:1 in tanks and vehicles and 3:1 in aircrafts.
August 9th 1941 The Second Russo-Japanese war starts. The Soviets launch a two front attack with the city of Harbin as their first goal.
August 12, 1941 At the Battle of Vladivostsk, the Soviet Far East Fleet’s attempt to escape is foiled and the majority of the fleet is destroyed.
August 16th 1941 Peruvian forces capture Cuenca after heavy fighting. Both sides are exhausted and both sides agree a cease-fire. But secret pledges by the Colombian government that they will join the conflict helps the Ecuadorians to break the cease fire on September 10th 1941 after the arrival of Colombian “volunteers” and weapons.
August 18, 1941 The Sakalin campaign launched by the Japanese.
September 26th 1941 Ecuadorian counter offensive recaptures Cuenca. Peru prepares for a final offensive to try to end the conflict.
October 10th 1941 Coastal offensive started by Peru.
November 3, 1941 The Sakalin campaign ends with a combined army-marine Japanese effort successfully conquering the northern half of the island.
November 16, 1941 Due to the terrain and stubborn Japanese resistance it is not until the middle of November that Soviets reach Harbin. The siege of Harbin begins.
November 21, 1941 Czechoslovakia formally changes its name to the Central European Republic.
December 7th 1941 Guayaquil falls to Peruvian army. Peru sends terms of surrender to Ecuador. Ecuador after consideration and further promises by Colombia refuses. A December ceasefire agreed by both sides, in reality both sides are exhausted.
December 20, 1941 The Hungarians and Bulgarians give up their attempts at Romania and withdraw to the 1940 borders.
December 24, 1941 An informal ceasefire due to weather conditions has set in and both sides consolidate their positions.

1942
February 8, 1942 Ecuadorian counter offensive starts in attempt to recapture Guayaquil, casualties mount especially between Colombian volunteers. The offensive is called off on March 2nd 1942 after failing in their objectives.
February 9, 1942 Peruvian counter offensive starts in an attempt to recapture Cuenca. With majority of enemy forces facing Guayaquil the city falls by February 21st 1942.
February 15, 1942 President Baldomir dissolves the General Assembly in Montevideo and asks the opposition parties to join in defeating the military. Uruguay Civil War starts. Colorado Party changes name to Uruguayan Communist Party.
February 24, 1942 The ceasefire comes to an end when the Japanese begin their effort to relieve Harbin.
March 9, 1942 The Harbin relief effort collapses for the Japanese. Japanese inflict severe losses upon the Soviets in this attack but fail in their objective.
March 11, 1942 Ecuador accepts terms of Peru. Peru gains all disputed territory plus El Oro province.
March 17, 1942 Harbin falls to the Soviets. A Japanese offer of peace in exchange for accepting Soviet border claims in Manchuria is rejected.
April 1, 1942 The Deep Thrust; Soviet forces, finally in better terrain than the northern part of Manchuria launch a combined arms operation to destroy the Japanese presence in Manchuria.
April 12, 1942 Liberal leader Jorge Eliezer Gaitan asks for the resignation of the current Colombian government. He blamed them for the thousands of casualties incurred during the just ended conflict and the economic chaos the nation was suffering. The lower classes, from were the majority of the casualties came from and the ones suffering more of the slow recovery from the Depression, flock to him especially in the cities.
April 23, 1942 India is divided into a loose confederation of Hindu majority provinces, Muslim majority ones, and the Sikh Azaz Punjab. Each province is governed with a high degree of autonomy except for foreign affairs, communications, defense, and finances needed for nationwide affairs. The central government is located in Delhi. There was some opposition by all sides to this final arrangement but after some violence it was accepted; it was this or the dismembering of India.
May 1, 1942 Gandhi assassinated by a disgruntled INC fanatic.
May 15 1942 Ceasefire agreement between Japan and Nationalist Chinese allows Japan to move more forces to face the Soviets.
May 20, 1942 Eliezer Gaitan assassinated while giving speech in Bogota. Start of the Colombian Civil War. Liberal sympathizers take to the streets to fight government forces.
May 29, 1942 Liberal forces capture Bogota. Alfonso Lopez Pumarejo declared President by the Liberals. Incumbent President Eduardo Santos flees to Cartagena and asks for international recognition of his cabinet as the true government of Colombia.
June 3, 1942 The Brazilian government establishes the Companhia Vale do Rio Doce to exploit the rich iron-ore deposits of Itabira.
June 6, 1942 The largest air battle ever seen is fought on this day. Both sides claim victory, but it appears to be a narrow victory for the Soviets through the sheer number of Soviet planes, not by technical or equipment advantages of which they have none; the Japanese machines are superior and Japanese pilots are about even in quality.
June 18 1942 Two Soviet tank divisions fight an ad-hoc formation equivalent to a reinforced armored brigade near Mukden. The Soviets have mostly T-26s, but with a considerable number of T-34s as well; the Japanese have Type 95 tanks. After the Soviet victory, the Japanese recognize the failure of their tank designs and begin searching abroad for new models.
July 12, 1942 The Japanese have been expelled from most of Manchuria and forced to a defensive line on the Yalu River.
July 28, 1942 Nationalist China refuses to let Japanese forces in China attack north, threatening to end the ceasefire agreement if the Japanese attack the Soviets from Chinese soil.
August 10, 1942 After a lull of one month to recover, the Soviets begin their offensive into Korea.
September 14, 1942 Uruguayan Civil War ends. Communist Party wins and declares the People’s Republic of Uruguay. While neutral, this nation turns into a sanctuary for communist sympathizers from Argentina and neighboring countries. Inmediatly recognized by the Soviet Union.
October 7, 1942 The Japanese evacuation of the Liounyan Peninsula culminates with the destruction of the Port Arthur facilities.
November 25, 1942 Juan Antonio Ríos Morales, a member of the Radical Party, is elected president of Chile.
December 31, 1942 The Japanese front is a line anchored by Wonsan and running from there west. Japanese offers of peace (Manchuria to the Soviets, Korea to the Japanese) are considered by Stalin, but rejected.

1943
March 23, 1943 The first jet fighter is developed by RLM using engine design of Anselm Franz.
April 6, 1943 The Japanese launch their counter-offensive. The slow grinding Soviet offensive has been continual throughout the year, but with the arrival of Japanese forces from China and the Japanese shorter supply lines the Soviet casualties are finally beginning to be felt. The Soviet push into Korea has bogged down. With Japan still controlling the seas, it has become a slow, grinding fight all the way down the peninsula, as the Soviets have to take on every fortified pass. The mountainous terrain also does much to negate the Soviet armor advantage. The Japanese actually gain ground and recapture Seoul.
May 1, 1943 Alarmed by the success and aggressiveness of the Soviet Union in the Far East, and impressed by the demonstrations of the German figher jet, Sweden and Norway agree to join the NEA on the anniversary of its founding.
May 13, 1943 The military ousts Argentina's constitutional government.
June 18 1943 After mediation by the United States, the Second Russo-Japanese War ends when Stalin accepts the last Japanese offer of borders drawn based on the front lines. Manchuria will become the People’s Republic of Manchuria under Mao Tse Tong, but with Soviet troops stationed there guaranteeing they remain within the Soviet sphere. North Korea too becomes a Communist satellite of the USSR. Japan, bled dry by the war, also formalizes the ceasefire with Nationalist China.
July 1, 1943 Impressed with the performance of Soviet armor during the Second Russo-Japanese War, the Reichswehr orders the development of a completely new line of tank inspired by examples acquired from the Japanese.
August 5, 1943 Vargas announces for Brazil a twelve year plan for growth into the interior. To distance himself from the newly defeated Mussolini he begins to go back to some of his left-centre ideologies. The opening of Southern Brazil for homesteading, a more open stance on immigration, and land reforms are key points to his plan. Vargas opens the frontier by opening forts and oil towns around the west and south.
September 20, 1943 In the wake of the Japanese performance in the Second Russo-Japaneses war, the Emperor dismisses the militarists and installs more democratically minded ministers.
October 28, 1943 Axis powers launch a surprise invasion of Greece. Bulgaria hits a wall from the very beginning but Italy made some minimal gains before also being stopped. The UK and France consider forcing another conference to deal with the situation, but fall apart with the UK wanting to take a more aggressive stance whereas France wishes to continue the appeasement policy of the past several years.
November 21, 1943 the Greeks, with secret shipment of weapons from the British coming from Egypt, launches a counter offensive that recaptures most of the lost territory.
December 1, 1943 Faced with French disinterest in a confrontation with Italy, the UK instead turns to the German Republic and the Northern European Alliance, jointly sending a demarche to the Axis powers to withdraw to their borders or a state of war will exist between them. The Axis received 72 hours to comply. Europe is on the brink of a major war.
December 2, 1943 Armed forces of the Northern European Alliance begin to mobilize. Axis nations’ leaders meet in an emergency meeting in Rome.
December 3, 1943 Axis begins withdrawing from Greece. German President Lettow-Vorbeck announces this as a victory for the democracies of Europe. He also states that the Balkans is not a playfield that could be trampled on by the fascist nations and invites both Turkey and Greece to join their European Alliance. The United Kingdom, disillusioned with the French response to the crisis, announces that it will be formally joining the NEA, which it has supported for years. France appears to stand alone.

1944
January 7, 1944 The A-4 rocket has its first successful launch at Peenemünde.
February 7, 1944 Turkey asks for membership of the Northern European Alliance. With borders with both communists and fascists they consider this their best course of action.
February 21, 1944 Greece asks for membership to the Northern European Alliance. With their pre-Greek crisis neutrality stance shot to bits by the actions of the Axis they decide like the Turkish government that their best course of action was to join the Northern European Alliance.
June 5, 1944 Brazil creates a company for the production of materials needed by the chemical industry.
November 7, 1944 President Vandenberg wins re-election in the USA.

1945
March 2nd 1945 Border dispute on Tunisian-Libyan border. Small casualties on both sides. Mussolini asks for an apology from the French government, even when his troops were the ones that stray into French territory.
March 9th 1945 Secret buildup of Italian forces in Libya is started under the guise of a military exercise.
April 4th 1945 Italian forces cross into Tunisia in force. While overall the French border fortifications resisted the onslaught, breakthroughs by Italian forces forced the French to abandon the border fortifications and withdrew north on the 7th.
April 13th 1945 Italian forces capture Gabes. French offer cease-fire to discuss border adjustments. But Mussolini refuses out of hand and dreams of pushing the French out of Tunisia altogether and of even greater ones.
April/June 1945 Italian forces continued their advance in Tunisia while French fought a defensive strategy while moving forces into the theater. The Italian advance to the interior in the direction of the Kasserine Pass bogged down but the city of Sfax was captured the 4th of June. Italians have the initiative on all theaters during this period.
April 18th 1945 A motorized corps is organized in France, composed of the 3rd and 4th Armored plus the 1st DLM under the command of Charles de Gaulle for deployment to Africa.
April 19th 1945 Italy expands the war with the beginning of an air campaign directed at the French airfields on the south of France and Corsica. The French responded in kind with attacks to Italian air bases in northern Italy. So far into the war both sides are not targeting civilian targets. By the end of April, French aircrafts coming from the north turn this campaign into a stalemate but the Italians ruled the skies over Corsica.
April 20th 1945 French Somaliland surrenders to Italian forces.
April 28th 1945 Battle of Convoy FG28- Two Italian light cruiser with destroyer escorts tried to intercept this convoy. Unknown to them this convoy was escorted by the battle cruiser Bretagne, a light cruiser and destroyers. On the ensuing battle one Italian cruiser was sunk and the other suffers considerable damage while the French losses were minimal. The French convoys to North Africa thereafter were only affected by an overall ineffective submarine campaign.
May 1st 1945 Charles de Gaulle and lead elements arrive to Algiers. Rest of his Corps will be in theater and ready to enter combat by the end of the month.
May 8th 1945 In the biggest airborne operation in history, two airborne divisions dropped on the island of Corsica and caught the small garrison unprepared. The island is considered secure by the 18th of May after the arrival of another division by sea on the 10th to help consolidate the situation.
May 10th 1945 1st naval Battle of Corsica. The French cruiser Algiers, a light cruiser and escorts clashed with the ships escorting the infantry division on bound to Corsica. The Vittorio Veneto and the Roma made mincemeat of the French ships, sinking both the Algiers and the light cruiser with the lost of a single destroyer. Mussolini hailed this victory as a sign of the Italian superiority in battleships.
May 15th 1945 Mussolini offers terms to French to accept the current situation as permanent. The French refuse out of hand.
May 22nd 1945 French government receives assurances from the German nation that they will stay neutral in this conflict. Great Britain guaranteed this, even stating they will side with the French if Germany breaks their word. Story is that German President Lettow -Vorbeck said. “Your flank is secure. Go deal with our would-be Caesar, and when his little sticks are kindling, tell him Arminius says hello.”
May 24th 1945 French High Command began swift of forces south. While still leaving a sizeable force on the border with Germany, the bulk of the forces in Northern France began to move south in preparation of the one-two punch planned by the French leaders.
June 6th 1945 2nd naval Battle of Corsica. The French plan to gain naval superiority in the immediate waters of Corsica was a classic battle facing two battleships on each side were the lines of communication with the Italian garrison in Corsica was on the balance. The French battleships Richelieu and Jean Bart suffered moderate and slight damage respectively but they fared better than their Italian counterparts. The Duilio was sunk while the Roma suffered severe damage and has to withdraw in the direction of Taranto for repairs.
June 8th 1945 The sinking of the Roma. The battleship Roma, moving away from Corsica after being damaged in battle, is sunk by an aerial attack launched from the aircraft carrier Bearn. While many said the ship prior damage in battle is the real reason it was sunk, this action together with the actions of the Japanese fleet during the Russo-Japanese fleet proved the aircraft carrier was the future of naval forces.
June14th 1945 Italian forces in Tunisia stop offensive operations due to weariness. By now the forces involved have been fighting close to two months without rest and where close to been exhausted. Reinforcements and replacements were been marshaled in southern Italy for the trip to Libya.
June 29th 1945 British government closes the Suez Canal to all military traffic, even troop carriers.
July 3rd 1945- Simultaneous campaigns launched in the French-Italian border and in Tunisia.
July 4th 1945 Late on the afternoon Corps d’Afrique under de Gaulle achieves breakthrough and began his race for Gabes.
July 5th 1945 General Graziani recognizes the danger of the French breakthrough and orders a general withdraw before his forces get encircled.
July 8th 1945 First registered use of gas in the war. Use by Italian forces on the Alps to defeat a French attack against a fortified position.
July 9th 1945 Forces marked for reinforcement of the Tunisian effort have to be deviated north to help stop the French attack on the Alps. Forces in Tunisia were left to fend for themselves.
July 9th 1945 First registered use of gas in Tunisia. Forces escaping from the Kasserine front use gas in their attempt to break free. The shock of the use of gas made possible the escape of the majority of the forces in that front back to the border.
July 10th 1945 First bombardment of cities. Cities on Nice, Marseilles and Grenoble received the “visit” of Italian bombers. French responded later on the day with attacks to Genoa and Milan.
July 11th - 12th 1945 The Corps d’Afrique fought the biggest mechanized battle ever with the Ariete armored division and the Trieste motorized one, part of the forces trying to escape encirclement north of Gabes. Both forces suffered heavy casualties but the Italians failed in their attempt to escape encirclement. De Gaulle units pocketed the Sfax force.
July 19th 1945 Battered Italians forces reached the Tunisian-Libyan border and began to dig in. 75,000 Italians soldiers are surrounded on the Tunisian coast south of Sfax and north of Gabes.
July 23rd 1945 Offensive on the Alps stopped with minimal gains. Some news reporters compared the casualties suffered by the French “as a replay of the Great War.” Still Mussolini was forced by his own casualties to ask his Axis allies for help.
July 24th 1945 Germany and all members of the Northern European Alliance refuse the final Axis petition for right of transit of land and air forces through their territories. Instead, forces must be sent by circuitous routes in the case of Bulgaria and Hungary, and Poland can only send ‘volunteers’ through civilian transportation, with no equipment. Mussolini considers declaring war on the Northern European Alliance over this ‘obstructionism’, but King Victor Emmanuel III forbids a widening of the war.
August 1, 1945 The Kriegsmarine is granted permission to begin design work for a line of aircraft carriers.
August 3rd 1945 French Foreign Legion 3rd REI opens gap on Italian forces in Libyan border. De Gaulle Corps d’ Afrique, now reduced to two under strength divisions in manpower, pours thru the gap. Italian forces began disorganized withdraw east.
August 5th 1945 General LeClerc’s Army of Central Africa began invasion of southern Libya from French Equatorial Africa. Opposition is minimal with Italian forces escaping north.
August 13th 1945 De Gaulle enters city of Tripoli. General Graziani sacked by Mussolini.
August 20 1945 Ethiopians surreptitiously armed by the British and French begin an insurrection against the Italians.
August 22nd 1945 French forces capture el Agheila. French forces in control of Tripolitania and southern Libya. Mussolini offers peace based on the pre-war borders. France, sure now of their ability to take the war to the enemy, refuses to event discuss those terms. War continues.
September 1st 1945 The bomber campaigns began. Both nations began bomber campaigns against each other cities. These raids continued thru the rest of the war and affected more Italy, due to their industrial sites being located in the northern cities for the most part.
September 4th 1945 Franco rejected the plea of Mussolini to join the war on the Axis side. He used as an excuse that his nation was still recovering from the effects of the Civil War.
September 5th 1945 Italian forces pocketed in Tunisia surrender and go into captivity. More than 70,000 men were captured.
September 18th 1945 French forces launch amphibious invasion of Sardinia. Small garrison on the island overwhelm in 10 days after heavy casualties for both sides.
September 19th 1945 Battle of the Tylerrian Sea. Battleship Impero and escorts intercepted by the battleship Jean Bart and the battle cruiser Lorraine. The aftermath was the destruction of the Impero while the Lorraine suffered severe damage and it took years to repair the extensive damage it suffered. The Italian navy never again tried to contend the French domain of the sea.
September 21, 1945 End of the severe famine due to drought near Hanoi and surrounding areas kills close to one million people but more are saved by a League of Nations effort to help the people in the area. However, Ho Chi Minh uses this drought to recruit members for his movement.
December 23, 1945 Ho Chi Minh launches their first large-scale attack against the French. By now the Viet Minh are 30,000 strong and the numbers continue to grow.
October 2nd 1945 Simultaneous offensives launched in Africa and northern Italy by the French. This time French forces are prepared for chemical warfare and they expect to break the Italian lines this time.
October 7th 1945 With the Italian lines on the verge of collapse, nerve gas is used for first time in history to try to stop the French. The French offensive is stopped due to the terrible casualties inflicted to the unprepared troops. The results of the use of this experimental weapon never tested were a shock to both the Italians and the rest of the world.
October 9th 1945 With world public opinion outraged by the use of this new weapon and the latest ill-fortunes of the Italian forces being made public to the Italians, King Victor Emmanuel III asks Mussolini for his resignation. Mussolini, after a late bid to save his position, gave his resignation early in the morning of the 10th of October.
October 10th 1945 Count Ciano, Italian temporary leader offers peace based on October 1st frontlines. The offer is refused.
October 14th 1945 Benghazi captured by French forces. Italians continue their escape east.
October 21st 1945 Tobruk abandoned by Italian forces. More than 20,000 men flee by sea from this port before the evacuation of the city. Italian forces are actually fleeing east. Any sense of trying to defend is now gone.
October 28th 1945 Bardia and Fort Capputo surrenders to French forces. Close to 50,000 men cross into Egypt to be interned.
October 25, 1945 The German speaking portion of the Tyrol in Italy rises up and declares itself free of the Italians. German Alpine troops are requested by the leaders of the revolt to move into the area to maintain the peace.
October 31 1945 The French gained the initiative in mid June and never lost it. Their simultaneous campaigns in July, while one of them could be considered a failure, were too much for the Italian forces. Even with reinforcements from their Axis allies the tide could not be turned back, especially when efforts went in vain to get Franco’s Spain to join the war. By the end of October the end was near.
November 11th 1945 Italian garrison in Corsica asks for terms due to the lack of supplies and according to their commander, “To ease the suffering of the civilians on the island.”
November 17th 1945- In an accord brokered by the United States and the League of Nations, the warring factions in Colombia agreed to end the conflict that caused thousands of deaths and devastated the economy of that nation. President Vandenberg sees this accord “as giving peace to this generation of Colombians and hopefully to the coming ones.”
December 15th 1945 “The Christmas Offensive” starts. The French used chemicals weapons offensively for the first time in the war and a small amphibious force was landed behind the enemy lines.
December 18th 1945 The landing behind the lines is contained on the beachheads but the front line on the passes was ready to burst. With both forces near exhaustion
December 21, 1945 Italian defenses on the passes were broken. The road to Northern Italy was open for the French.
December 23rd 1945 Count Ciano asks for a ceasefire to discuss terms of surrender. After deliberation the French government agreed.

1946
January 15, 1946 Conservative Eduardo Cruz-Coke Lassabe is elected president of Chile.
January 29th 1946 The British mediated Treaty of Nice is signed. The terms were harsh but not as bad as expected. The French recover French Somaliland and kept Libya and Sardinia. Albania was granted its independence. Abyssinia also regained its independence once more and was given Eritrea as a sea access, both as a reward for the Abyssinian insurrection that tied down Italian troops and to placate the UK, who did not wish to see the French presence grow in East Africa. Similarly, Italian Somaliland stayed on the hands of the Italians due to British worries about French encroachment in East Africa and their preference to have a now weak Italy in control of that area than a strong France. The Franco-Italian border was demilitarized. The Italian army was reduced to 200,000 men and prohibited from having chemical weapons or armored vehicles. Also the two newest remaining battleships, the Littorio and the Vittorio Veneto were taken by the French as war booty while the Italian navy had to discard their submarine fleet and was prohibited from building more battleships, aircraft carriers or ships with guns bigger than 12”. Italy’s bid to be a major power was over. Another result of this treaty was the effective end of the Axis alliance, as the Italians were forced to repudiate all previous security agreements.
January 30, 1946 Italy agrees to cede the German-speaking Tyrol to Germany.
February 20, 1946 Perón is victorious in Argentine elections. He aggressively pursues policies aimed at giving an economic and political voice to the working class and greatly expanding the number of unionized workers.
June 3, 1946 the National Motor Company begins the production of trucks.
August 14, 1946 Dictator Vargas of Brazil sees the realization of one of his cherished dreams; The National Steel Company begins production at the Volta Redonda plant between Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo.
August 26, 1946 Philippines awarded their independence by the United States; a very peaceful transition from Commonwealth to Republic.
August 29, 1946 Start of communist guerilla campaign in China. Chiang accuses the Soviet and the Republic of Manchuria of aiding the rebels, charges they deny.
September 27, 1946 Communist forces capture Xian. Evidence of heavy artillery and crew served weapons verified by foreign witnesses.
October 18, 1946 US President Arthur Vandenberg pledge his support to the government of the Republic of China. Loans are granted to purchase newer equipment to fight the communist aggression.

1947
January 14, 1947 Communist insurrection started in Luzon Island by a group later know as the Huks.
February 4, 1947 President Lettow-Vorbeck announces that he will not seek re-election to the Presidency.
February 14th 1947 First free elections in Italy since the 1920’s. A coalition of center-left factions wins the election as a response of the electorate to the failure of the fascists during the war.
March 13, 1947 Communist strikes on the Japanese port of Osaka and other major ports turns violent. Troops called to break the disturbances. Japanese Communist Party outlawed as a result. Emergency powers are given to Admiral Yamamoto to rule Japan until the Communist menace is eliminated.
April 20, 1947 The first successful test detonation of an atomic bomb performed by Germany.
June 20, 1947 In the second dual Presidential and Reichstag elections, the SPD candidate, senior statesman Otto Braun wins the presidency on the second ballot. SPD leader Erich Ollenhauer becomes Chancellor of a center-left coalition government. He and UK Labour Government Prime Minister Clement Attlee would come to work closely together over the years.
August 1, 1947 Though delayed by security concerns caused by the recent Tunisian War in North Africa, the Partition of the Palestinian mandate goes into effect, creating a Jewish state called Israel in the Northwest, Palestine in the rest of the mandate, and leaving a large British controlled enclave in the middle centered on Jerusalem. The event is marred by violence by extremist groups from both sides dissatisfied by the arrangement, but the large British troop contingent keeps the event relatively peaceful.

1948
March 12 1948 Miklos Horthy is reported to die from a heart attack in his sleep. Shortly thereafter, a popular coup is launched against the fascist government by a coalition of republicans and monarchists, secretly sponsored by the German government. As part of the coalition agreement, a constitutional monarchy is established under the Hapsburg heir, Otto I. However, in return for German assistance and non-interference, Otto renounces all claims to former Hapsburg lands outside of Hungary proper. One of the first acts of the new government is to repeal the oppressive numerus clausus and anti-Semitic laws.
March 29, 1948 Werner von Braun becomes head of the new civilian German Space Agency he has lobbied for years to have formed.
April 8, 1948 Admiral Yamamoto announces the Emergency is over and elections will be held on June 8th 1948 to elect a new Prime Minister. The Japanese communist movement has been stamped out. With their leaders dead, jailed or gone into exile the movement is effectively dead.
June 12, 1948 Mohammed Hatta and Sukarno ask the Dutch Government in a letter published in Batavia to begin a process of gradual independence to Indonesia. Both are jailed for sedition.
July 4, 1948 Schwinn declares that men’s bicycling has doubled in the past decade, making it one of the most popular activities in America.
October 5, 1948 Japan is accepted back as a member of the League of Nations after Admiral Yamamoto put in a request for admittance as one of his last officials acts as de facto ruler of Japan.
November 2, 1948 Democrat Claude Pepper wins the US Presidential Election.

1949
February 7, 1949 With Huk influence now covering more than ¾ of the island of Luzon, the Philippines government ask the League of Nations for help in stamping this rebellion. Japan pledge air support and two SNLF brigades to help defeating the rebellion. Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain and Germany also pledge their support but in a smaller scale than Japan.
February 11, 1949 The United States, worried by how much the League and especially Japan can extend their influence over Philippines, also offers help in the form of air support, loans for the purchase of weapons and a mix Marine-Army Task Force comprised of forces already stationed in Hawaii and the West Coast of the United States.
August 14, 1949 The last British forces leave India except for the ones in the Calcutta naval station, the airbase near Bombay, and sundry other bases necessary for the defense of the Commonwealth.
October 2, 1949 The German Reichstag passes an amendment to have the Presidential election go to a run-off if there is no majority winner in the first round.
October 4, 1949 The Chinese Communist stronghold in Yennan falls to Nationalist Army. End of organized communist resistance in China. While low-level guerilla warfare will continue the threat of a Communist insurrection achieving their goal of defeating Chiang’s government is considered over.
November 1, 1949 The guerilla war in Vietnam continues with no end in sight. By now the Viet Minh is close to 45,000 men strong.
December 2, 1949 Charles de Gaulle, a hero of the French-Italian war, ordered to Indochina to take command of the forces in the region.

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 01:35 AM

Weimar World timeline: 1950-1959

1950
March 29, 1950 Process of Vietnamization of forces serving in Indochina started. By July 1954 close to 50% of French forces fighting the guerillas would be Vietnamese soldiers. This was a result of the losses incurred during the French-Italian war, which created a manpower drain in the French forces at the time.
April 8, 1950 Combined United States-Japanese force capture Huk stronghold in Mt Abak. Casualties are heavy but Huk leader captured during operation. General Maxwell Taylor, US commander in theater, praised the performance of the Japanese soldiers and said this event could be the beginning of a closer relationship between both nations. Picture of Japanese and American soldiers jointly raising each other flags made the front page of Times Magazine.
July 17th 1950-Vikdun Quisling is named ambassador to the Soviet Union. The former Norwegian Minister of the Interior during the early and middle 1940’s, is known for leaning to the extreme right and this post is considered by many a political exile caused by his now unpopular views. Within months of his arrival in Moscow, he would be found dead in his office, apparently by his own hand.
August 9, 1950 President Claude Pepper is assassinated by a group of gunmen while visiting New York City. The assailants are identified as four Puerto Rican independence sympathizers. Vice President Harry S Truman is sworn in as President of the United States later that day. The fall-out from the assassination leads to discrediting of the Puerto Rican independence movement.
September 28th 1950 Outfielder Joe Matthews of the Chicago Cubs wins the homerun crown with 51 HRs and later is named National League MVP.
October 1, 1950 Berlin film studios proudly announce they have now outdone Hollywood movies at the international box office for three years straight. The competition between the two film meccas remains fierce.

1951
April 7th 1951: Dr. Mossadeq elected Prime Minister of Iran. He formally nationalized the nation’s oil industry.
May 1, 1951 The Soviet Union test detonates its first atomic bomb, developed mostly from plans stolen from Germany through espionage.
May 8, 1951 Chinese and French officers met to discuss cooperation to eradicate Viet Minh on both side of their borders.
May 18th 1951: Alcide de Gaspari reelected Prime Minister after the short government of the Italian Social Movement under Count Galeano Ciano is disbanded by the King. The Italian’s People Party will rule the 1950’s in Italy, first under de Gaspari and later under Fernando Tromboni. A staunch Catholic and Conservative party, they moved in the direction of better relations with their neighbors during the period.
September 1, 1951: Great Britain declares an embargo aimed at the nation of Iran. Great Britain challenge of the nationalization of the oil industry failed after the League’s International Court ruled in favor of Iran. Still Iranian economy began to suffer due to the lack of foreign exchange and oil revenues.
September 9, 1951 Operation Joint Strike started by both the Chinese and French in each other sides of the border. Operation last until the end of November and close to 15,000 enemy men are either killed or captured. With the destruction of the Viet Minh sanctuaries on the other side of the Chinese border the war entered a lull in the tempo of operations until the Viet Minh recovered from the terrible casualties of this operation.
November 16th 1951: An anti-Semitic campaign masterminded and planned for years by Lavrenty Beria and Georgy Malenkov finally ends with the arrest of thousands of Jewish doctors and other professionals as traitors to the Soviet Union. The deportations and casualties in the Jewish community will continue until the dead of Stalin in 1953.
December 8, 1951 With war in the Philippines winding down, the German detachment began embarkation home. The German detachment during the war never was bigger than a couple of close support bomber squadrons and two special civic action groups.

1952
January 3, 1952 League of Nations officially announces their mission to the Philippines to be over. Still Australians troops stayed until May 16th 1952 and Japanese forces until October 10th 1955.
February 6, 1952 Border clashes between Soviet Union and China in the Sinking-Soviet border and the Mongolian-Soviet border used by Stalin to launch an invasion of both borders areas. Sino-Soviet War of 1952-53 starts with this action. Stalin gambled that with his very public demonstration that he knows possessed the Atomic bomb the League of Nations wasn’t going to risk general war for some territory in the middle of Asia.
March 7, 1952 United States detonates their first atomic bomb in the Nevada desert.
March 17th 1952: General Fazhollah Zahedi attempt of a coup fails due to the Shah’s doubts in giving support to the General. General Zahedi goes into exile to Turkey.
April 18th 1952: New coalition government takes control of Iran. Dr. Mossadeq still on power but more National Front and Tudeh party members take control of the government. The new Minister of War was a member of the Tudeh and while the Shah was still technically the ruler of the nation the reins of power were on the hands of the Coalition.
May 17th 1952: Soviet “technicians” invited by the Tudeh Minister of War to help modernize the nation’s military.
August 9th 1952- An arms sales agreement was signed today between the United States and Chile. US President Truman stated that “…Chile is a beacon of democracy in South America and it’s our nation’s duty to help the country stay that way….”
September 29th 1952- Boston Red Sox outfielder Ted Williams wins the American league batting championship with a .379 batting avg.
November 4, 1952 Harry S Truman wins the US Presidential election.

1953
March 10, 1953 Treaty of Beijing signed. Republic of China is forced to recognize lost of the province of Sinking to the Soviets and other small territorial concessions on the Mongolian-Chinese border. Truman's response to this treaty was that, “The fear of this new weapon, the atomic bomb, is the only reason the free nations of the world stood idle while this unequal treaty was imposed on the Chinese people.”
May 7th 1953 Joseph Stalin dies from heart attack on his dacha on the outside of Moscow.
May 12th 1953: Georgy Malenkov announced as the successor of Joseph Stalin as leader of the Soviet Union.
June 15th, 1952 - The United States of America finally joins the League of Nations after heavy pressure from President Truman on Congress.
June 21, 1953 Great Britain detonates their first atomic weapon on the Australian outback. The Japanese are impressed by reports of this explosion and begin a crash program.
August 17, 1953 Mohammad Hatta and Sukarno, just released from prison after serving five years sentences, gave a speech asking the Indonesian people to fight for their freedom and to throw the Dutch out of their country. They immediately went into hiding. This date is considered the start of the Indonesian War of Independence or the Indonesian Insurrection, depending of the point of view.

1954
May 18, 1954 Charles de Gaulle is replaced as commander of the French forces in Indochina and retires from military service soon after to enter politics.
July 16, 1954 Otto Braun wins reelection as President of Germany in the run-off.
July 19th 1954: Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov flies to Warsaw to discuss a thawing of the relations between both nations. Talks failed due to the Polish Foreign Minister’s General Komorowski-Bor to accept Soviet forces on their soil. The Poles didn’t trust the intentions of the Soviets and also the provocation the stationing of Soviet forces in Polish territory was a risk that must likely was going to be viewed as a threat to the NEA.
September 7th 1954: King Farouk of Egypt died of what is considered heart failure after a state dinner. His infant son, Farouk II, succeeds him. A regent council is created to rule until the time the boy can assume his role as King.
September 22, 1954 The Republic of China and the United Kingdom sign an extension of the lease of the city of Hong Kong that will finally end the British ownership of the city in the year 2050.
September 24, 1954 Secret meeting between Chinese government officials and moderate members of the Viet Minh promises covert support if they tone down their socialist leaning, turn more into a nationalist movement instead of a communist one and get rid of the more radical members of their movement.

1955
January 1, 1955 German President Otto Braun dies, becoming the first president of the Republic to die while in office.
March 2, 1955 Konrad Adenauer becomes the new President of the German Republic after a whirlwind campaign. Gains for his party are expected in the next Reichstag election.
June 6th 1955: Poland signs a trade agreement with Hungary and the Central European Republic. While failing to negotiate with the Baltic States or Germany many experts considered this a move in a direction of thawing relations between the NEA and Poland.
July 5, 1955 Trade and Cooperation Agreement signed by the Republic of China and the Empire of Japan. Chiang’s victories over the guerillas in his country and over the Viet Minh gave him a false sense of security that came crashing down with the defeat in the war of 1952. Both Japan and his nation considered the Soviet Union the main threat and this treaty is the realization that their best approach was cooperation.
November 8th 1955: First joint military exercises between Chinese and Japanese celebrated in Formosa thru the month.

1956
April 4th 1956- Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia celebrated the anniversary of his return from exile with a declared long week holiday that also celebrated the end of Italian occupation ten years ago. Foreign dignitaries were invited to the different ceremonies celebrated during the week.
April 7th 1956 A veteran of the Negro League, Jackie Robinson, now of the Brooklyn Dodgers, hits a single on his first at bat in the major leagues, becoming the first black man since the late 19th century to play Major League Baseball.
June 20, 1956 The Great Transportation Exposition is held in Berlin. A retrospective on the Zepplin line is a centerpiece, as this is the last year of commercial passenger flights for the airlines as jet planes now dominate the market. Zepplins will stay in service for decades to come for freight transport due to it being much cheaper. Also featured at the Expo is the newest line of speed trains for the German-Europa lines, which are the densest within the German Republic, but is coming to dominate transportation in most of Europe. The auto is relegated to a recreational vehicle for getting away to the far-off countryside. A popular attraction is the panorama display from the German space industry. Many stars of the Berlin Movie Industry, which rivals Hollywood in the USA, put in an appearance at the Expo.
November 5, 1956 Adlai Stevenson wins the US Presidential election.

1957
March 2nd 1957 From his secret capital in the province of Aceh, the self-proclaimed president of Indonesia, Sukarno, asks the Netherlands government to end the conflict and together to began a peaceful transition to independence. The Dutch response was to ask Sukarno to turn himself in and to end the rebellion. The impasse continued.
March 3, 1957 The German A-11 rocket launches the first satellite into orbit. This will be the last great achievement of an independent German Space Program, as spending priorities on domestic programs will not permit further unilateral funding for the very expensive Space program. The German government begins to seek partners for Space exploration.
November 11th 1957- The Netherlands, suffering the third year of a civil war in their East Indies colonies, asks the Northern European Alliance for membership. Their goal is to get the other member nations involved in the war in the East Indies, though membership by no means assures this. By the end of the year parts of Sumatra, Bali and Borneo are effectively in hands of the rebels while a terrorist campaign against government forces is being fought in Java.

1958
February 17th 1958: Netherlands accepted in the Northern European Alliance but was dismayed when other member nations refused to get involved in the bloodbath in the East Indies.
April 16th 1958- Chile and Peru sign the Andean Pact, a defensive agreement, due to fears of the Argentines and problems in neighboring Bolivia.
July 4, 1958 The Republic of Germany, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America pool their resources to launch a joint space initiative, the North Atlantic Space Agency. The Central European Republic and other Alliance nations soon join the group as junior partners.
September 18th 1958 France explodes their first atomic bomb in the Sahara desert.

1959
August 5th 1959: The United States of America and the Philippines complete negotiations with the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere to form the Pacific-Asia Co-Prosperity Association (PACPA). One of the main goals of the Association is to strengthen capitalism in the region to combat the spread of Communism.
August 8th 1959- France announces their intention to create a French Union, similar in composition to the British Commonwealth. According to insiders, the colonies most likely to get self-rule by 1960 are Syria, Lebanon and Madagascar.
August 14th 1959- The People’s Republic of Uruguay signs a trade and cooperation agreement with the Soviet Union. The agreement includes the stationing of Soviet agricultural technicians in the nation to ensure the good use of the Soviet imports. Unfortunately, Soviet theories of agriculture will lead to a few famines instead.
December 25, 1959 Japan explodes their first atomic weapon on Bikini Atoll.

Wendell

November 22nd, 2005, 01:56 AM

India here is still a do,inion of the British Crown a la Canada in TTL?

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 02:05 AM

India here is still a do,inion of the British Crown a la Canada in TTL?

So far, yes. It's even holding together, being a more loose confederation to begin with.

I need Oth to chime in with what he thought the results would be of the Peruvian/Ecuador conflict.

Wendell

November 22nd, 2005, 02:08 AM

So far, yes. It's even holding together, being a more loose confederation to begin with.

I need Oth to chime in with what he thought the results would be of the Peruvian/Ecuador conflict.
So, has this India banned regional/separatist parties?

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 02:18 AM

So, has this India banned regional/separatist parties?

What do you think?

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 02:20 AM

I was thinking about having some variant of Rock n Roll develop in Germany based American Rhythm and Blues and Klezmer...
The Berlin Invasion, anyone? Maybe we'll name the biggest band of the time to come out of Germany 'Sealion'...

Wendell

November 22nd, 2005, 02:23 AM

What do you think?
I think they would be banned, but state secondary official languages would be legal. Also, do you plan to keep any of the Princely States around in some form?

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 02:35 AM

I think they would be banned, but state secondary official languages would be legal. Also, do you plan to keep any of the Princely States around in some form?

Don't know. I kinda like the idea of greater, multireligion India holding together, so whatever you think would best benefit that would be nice.

Feel free to submit a few dated events to describe this...

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 02:44 AM

I think we are going to have De-Stalinization ITTL as in ours...

However, without the atrocities of Hitler and the Nazis to top him for infamy, might this not make Stalin the most reviled figure of the 20th Century, and bring about an earlier discrediting of Communism by association.

I can see all the Communist countries becoming very emphatic in their de-identification with Stalin and his regime...

Speaking of such...do we still see McCarthyism ITTL? The Soviets are still the Red Menace, but encroaching in the Far East instead of Europe. Maybe that makes them less threatening, or just makes it so the West Coast feels more threatened.

BTW, I see Vietnam getting their independence as a non-communist state.

Wendell

November 22nd, 2005, 02:56 AM

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 03:23 AM

It's hard to know, because I think McCarthyism was on some level, a response to Stalin and Stalinism, which was still seen as a part of Soviet identity, despite Khruschev's moves IOTL.

McCarthyism was at its height from 1950-4, while Stalin was still alive, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Plus we have Siangking falling to the Communists at the same time!

Othniel

November 22nd, 2005, 03:25 AM

No comment as Quinto should always recieve victory...:p

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 03:32 AM

No comment as Quinto should always recieve victory...:p

What the? Okay, stop being so obscure and give me a straight answer, will ya! Or better yet, give me a dated event for the resolution of the war, and maps of any border changes in Latin America between 1920 and 1960....

Wendell

November 22nd, 2005, 03:36 AM

McCarthyism was at its height from 1950-4, while Stalin was still alive, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Plus we have Siangking falling to the Communists at the same time!
That's true. I was thinking that as I submitted the post:o

Othniel

November 22nd, 2005, 03:40 AM

What the? Okay, stop being so obscure and give me a straight answer, will ya! Or better yet, give me a dated event for the resolution of the war, and maps of any border changes in Latin America between 1920 and 1960....
Just saying I'm a fan of Equador in all cases thus would prefer to see Brazil with Paragauy and UrUgauy and Eqaudor with everthing else. :D Just how I am... very partsian with my favorite south american countries don'cha see...;)

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 03:55 AM

Weimar World timeline: 1960-2019

1960
October 30th 1960: Italy grants independence to their last colony of Somaliland. The nation takes the name of Somalia. The first new African nation since the founding of South Africa.

1961
October 8, 1961 The Soviet Union shocks the world by sending the first man into orbit. Funding of the North Atlantic Space Agency will increase significantly as the member nations dedicate themselves to putting a base on the moon by 1980.

1962
March 16th 1962: After close to ten years of war the Netherlands agreed to a ceasefire to begin negotiations to end the Indonesian war. By now the islands of Sumatra and Borneo are, except for some small enclaves, under the control of the rebels plus guerilla activity exists in all the islands in the archipelago.
March 19th 1962: The Imperial Japanese and the Kuomintang governments recognize the Indonesian rebel government as the representative of the Indonesian people. The covert help to the Indonesian movement since late 1957 was suspected but not verified until secret files of both the Chinese and Japanese governments were declassified in the early 21st century.
April 3, 1962 - Ludwig Erhard of the DVP becomes the first member of that party to win the Presidency of the German Republic. He had started out his career with the DNVP under Carl Friedrich Goerdeler, but left the party for the DVP after Goerdeler retired from politics.

1969
April 8, 1969 Ludwig Erhard easily wins reelection to the Presidency of the German Republic.
June 2, 1969 NASA sends the first men to the moon (symbolically, a German, American, and Briton).
August 11, 1969 Germans celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the Weimar Constitution (date of its announcement).

1976
April 10, 1969 Herbert Ernst Karl Frahm wins the presidency, returning the office to the SPD for the first time since 1955. His term would see the final rapproachment between Poland and the German Republic.
July 4, 1976 Bicentennial of the signing of the US Declaration of Independence.
November 2, 1976 Ronald Wilson Reagan is elected President of the United States of America.

1979
August 20, 1979 The NASA moon base, a capsule buried under the lunar soil, goes into operation, a year ahead of the deadline set in 1961.

2019
August 11, 2019 The date of the Centennial celebration of the Weimar Consitution and the German Republic.

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 03:59 AM

Just saying I'm a fan of Equador in all cases thus would prefer to see Brazil with Paragauy and UrUgauy and Eqaudor with everthing else. :D Just how I am... very partsian with my favorite south american countries don'cha see...;)

I don't really care at the moment...I just want to get this timeline moving in a plausible direction.

So if you can find a way for Ecuador to pull out of the mess you've put them in, go for it.

Uruguay you should be able to get to Brazil, seeing as they are a lone communist nation and not very popular in the hemisphere. The US and Germany would probably give their tacit blessing to that.

As for the rest...write something and we'll see....

Othniel

November 22nd, 2005, 04:01 AM

I haven't touched Eqaudor, that was Pedro's doing...:(

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 04:05 AM

I haven't touched Eqaudor, that was Pedro's doing...:(

Ouch, sorry...got you two confused. Still, pedro's not around yet, so if you want to write something about it, feel free.

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 02:44 PM

I'm going to have Truman launch a Civil Rights initiative in 1953 I think.

There's likely to still be enough atrocities (ie lynchings) in the South to disgust the man, and he might feel the same way about Buffalo Soldiers returning from the Philippines as he did OTL about soldiers from WWII.

Unless someone thinks that this would have happened in the 1940s under the Vandenburg administration...

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 02:49 PM

Ah, I 'found' the end to the Ecuador-Peruvian War. Don't know how I missed it before.

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 03:08 PM

QUOTE (Wendell @ Nov 22 2005, 01:35 AM)
QUOTE (Glen Finney @ Nov 22 2005, 03:10 AM)
QUOTE (Wendell @ Nov 13 2005, 04:44 PM)
Questions:
-Is British Somaliland merged into this "Somalia"?
-Why would Philippines join the Coprosperity Sphere?

I don't think that British Somaliland will join with Italian Somaliland this go-round. Stronger British Empire leads to more cohesive Commonwealth, and so on...

I don't think that the Philippines would be in a co-prosperity sphere with Japan and China, as the US would block it...that's why I've modified it to make the Philippines and USA founding members with the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere of a new organization, the Pacific-Asia Co-Prosperity Association (PACPA).

Here's the link to the AH.com version of this thread...go to the last page for the most recent updates.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion...ed=1#post368303

Will Canada join PACPA?

Don't know...probably not at once. They sort of have their own trade block in the Asia/Pacific region with the British Empire/Commonwealth (Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, etc.).

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 05:55 PM

Weimar World timeline: 1950-1959

1950
March 29, 1950 Process of Vietnamization of forces serving in Indochina started. By July 1954 close to 50% of French forces fighting the guerillas would be Vietnamese soldiers. This was a result of the losses incurred during the French-Italian war, which created a manpower drain in the French forces at the time.
April 8, 1950 Combined United States-Japanese force capture Huk stronghold in Mt Abak. Casualties are heavy but Huk leader captured during operation. General Maxwell Taylor, US commander in theater, praised the performance of the Japanese soldiers and said this event could be the beginning of a closer relationship between both nations. Picture of Japanese and American soldiers jointly raising each other flags made the front page of Times Magazine.
July 17th 1950-Vikdun Quisling is named ambassador to the Soviet Union. The former Norwegian Minister of the Interior during the early and middle 1940’s, is known for leaning to the extreme right and this post is considered by many a political exile caused by his now unpopular views. Within months of his arrival in Moscow, he would be found dead in his office, apparently by his own hand.
August 9, 1950 President Claude Pepper is assassinated by a group of gunmen while visiting New York City. The assailants are identified as four Puerto Rican independence sympathizers. Vice President Harry S Truman is sworn in as President of the United States later that day. The fall-out from the assassination leads to discrediting of the Puerto Rican independence movement.
September 28th 1950 Outfielder Joe Matthews of the Chicago Cubs wins the homerun crown with 51 HRs and later is named National League MVP.
October 1, 1950 Berlin film studios proudly announce they have now outdone Hollywood movies at the international box office for three years straight. The competition between the two film meccas remains fierce.

1951
April 7th 1951: Dr. Mossadeq elected Prime Minister of Iran. He formally nationalized the nation’s oil industry.
May 1, 1951 The Soviet Union test detonates its first atomic bomb, developed mostly from plans stolen from Germany through espionage.
May 8, 1951 Chinese and French officers met to discuss cooperation to eradicate Viet Minh on both side of their borders.
May 18th 1951: Alcide de Gaspari reelected Prime Minister after the short government of the Italian Social Movement under Count Galeano Ciano is disbanded by the King. The Italian’s People Party will rule the 1950’s in Italy, first under de Gaspari and later under Fernando Tromboni. A staunch Catholic and Conservative party, they moved in the direction of better relations with their neighbors during the period.
September 1, 1951: Great Britain declares an embargo aimed at the nation of Iran. Great Britain challenge of the nationalization of the oil industry failed after the League’s International Court ruled in favor of Iran. Still Iranian economy began to suffer due to the lack of foreign exchange and oil revenues.
September 9, 1951 Operation Joint Strike started by both the Chinese and French in each other sides of the border. Operation last until the end of November and close to 15,000 enemy men are either killed or captured. With the destruction of the Viet Minh sanctuaries on the other side of the Chinese border the war entered a lull in the tempo of operations until the Viet Minh recovered from the terrible casualties of this operation.
November 16th 1951: An anti-Semitic campaign masterminded and planned for years by Lavrenty Beria and Georgy Malenkov finally ends with the arrest of thousands of Jewish doctors and other professionals as traitors to the Soviet Union. The deportations and casualties in the Jewish community will continue until the dead of Stalin in 1953.
December 8, 1951 With war in the Philippines winding down, the German detachment began embarkation home. The German detachment during the war never was bigger than a couple of close support bomber squadrons and two special civic action groups.

1952
January 3, 1952 League of Nations officially announces their mission to the Philippines to be over. Still Australians troops stayed until May 16th 1952 and Japanese forces until October 10th 1955.
February 6, 1952 Border clashes between Soviet Union and China in the Sinking-Soviet border and the Mongolian-Soviet border used by Stalin to launch an invasion of both borders areas. Sino-Soviet War of 1952-53 starts with this action. Stalin gambled that with his very public demonstration that he knows possessed the Atomic bomb the League of Nations wasn’t going to risk general war for some territory in the middle of Asia.
March 7, 1952 United States detonates their first atomic bomb in the Nevada desert.
March 17th 1952: General Fazhollah Zahedi attempt of a coup fails due to the Shah’s doubts in giving support to the General. General Zahedi goes into exile to Turkey.
April 18th 1952: New coalition government takes control of Iran. Dr. Mossadeq still on power but more National Front and Tudeh party members take control of the government. The new Minister of War was a member of the Tudeh and while the Shah was still technically the ruler of the nation the reins of power were on the hands of the Coalition.
May 17th 1952: Soviet “technicians” invited by the Tudeh Minister of War to help modernize the nation’s military.
August 9th 1952- An arms sales agreement was signed today between the United States and Chile. US President Truman stated that “…Chile is a beacon of democracy in South America and it’s our nation’s duty to help the country stay that way….”
September 29th 1952- Boston Red Sox outfielder Ted Williams wins the American league batting championship with a .379 batting avg.
November 4, 1952 Harry S Truman wins the US Presidential election.

1953
March5, 1953 - The United States of America finally joins the League of Nations after heavy pressure from President Truman on Congress.
March 10, 1953 Treaty of Beijing signed. Republic of China is forced to recognize lost of the province of Sinking to the Soviets and other small territorial concessions on the Mongolian-Chinese border. Truman's response to this treaty was that, “The fear of this new weapon, the atomic bomb, is the only reason the free nations of the world stood idle while this unequal treaty was imposed on the Chinese people.”
May 7th 1953 Joseph Stalin dies from heart attack on his dacha on the outside of Moscow. With his death, Senator Joseph McCarthy's anti-communist commission begins to lose momentum.
May 12th 1953: Georgy Malenkov announced as the successor of Joseph Stalin as leader of the Soviet Union.
June 5, 1953 Truman, disgusted by a recent outbreak of egregious lynchings in the South, particularly one involving Buffalo soldiers who were veterans of the Philippines campaign, starts a civil rights commission and orders the desegregation of the military.
June 21, 1953 Great Britain detonates their first atomic weapon on the Australian outback. The Japanese are impressed by reports of this explosion and begin a crash program.
August 17, 1953 Mohammad Hatta and Sukarno, just released from prison after serving five years sentences, gave a speech asking the Indonesian people to fight for their freedom and to throw the Dutch out of their country. They immediately went into hiding. This date is considered the start of the Indonesian War of Independence or the Indonesian Insurrection, depending of the point of view.

1954
May 18, 1954 Charles de Gaulle is replaced as commander of the French forces in Indochina and retires from military service soon after to enter politics.
July 16, 1954 Otto Braun wins reelection as President of Germany in the run-off.
July 19th 1954: Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov flies to Warsaw to discuss a thawing of the relations between both nations. Talks failed due to the Polish Foreign Minister’s General Komorowski-Bor to accept Soviet forces on their soil. The Poles didn’t trust the intentions of the Soviets and also the provocation the stationing of Soviet forces in Polish territory was a risk that must likely was going to be viewed as a threat to the NEA.
September 7th 1954: King Farouk of Egypt died of what is considered heart failure after a state dinner. His infant son, Farouk II, succeeds him. A regent council is created to rule until the time the boy can assume his role as King.
September 22, 1954 The Republic of China and the United Kingdom sign an extension of the lease of the city of Hong Kong that will finally end the British ownership of the city in the year 2050.
September 24, 1954 Secret meeting between Chinese government officials and moderate members of the Viet Minh promises covert support if they tone down their socialist leaning, turn more into a nationalist movement instead of a communist one and get rid of the more radical members of their movement.

1955
January 1, 1955 German President Otto Braun dies, becoming the first president of the Republic to die while in office.
March 2, 1955 Konrad Adenauer becomes the new President of the German Republic after a whirlwind campaign. Gains for his party are expected in the next Reichstag election.
June 6th 1955: Poland signs a trade agreement with Hungary and the Central European Republic. While failing to negotiate with the Baltic States or Germany many experts considered this a move in a direction of thawing relations between the NEA and Poland.
July 5, 1955 Trade and Cooperation Agreement signed by the Republic of China and the Empire of Japan. Chiang’s victories over the guerillas in his country and over the Viet Minh gave him a false sense of security that came crashing down with the defeat in the war of 1952. Both Japan and his nation considered the Soviet Union the main threat and this treaty is the realization that their best approach was cooperation.
November 8th 1955: First joint military exercises between Chinese and Japanese celebrated in Formosa thru the month.

1956
April 4th 1956- Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia celebrated the anniversary of his return from exile with a declared long week holiday that also celebrated the end of Italian occupation ten years ago. Foreign dignitaries were invited to the different ceremonies celebrated during the week.
April 7th 1956 A veteran of the Negro League, Jackie Robinson, now of the Brooklyn Dodgers, hits a single on his first at bat in the major leagues, becoming the first black man since the late 19th century to play Major League Baseball.
June 20, 1956 The Great Transportation Exposition is held in Berlin. A retrospective on the Zepplin line is a centerpiece, as this is the last year of commercial passenger flights for the airlines as jet planes now dominate the market. Zepplins will stay in service for decades to come for freight transport due to it being much cheaper. Also featured at the Expo is the newest line of speed trains for the German-Europa lines, which are the densest within the German Republic, but is coming to dominate transportation in most of Europe. The auto is relegated to a recreational vehicle for getting away to the far-off countryside. A popular attraction is the panorama display from the German space industry. Many stars of the Berlin Movie Industry, which rivals Hollywood in the USA, put in an appearance at the Expo.
November 5, 1956 Adlai Stevenson wins the US Presidential election.

1957
March 2nd 1957 From his secret capital in the province of Aceh, the self-proclaimed president of Indonesia, Sukarno, asks the Netherlands government to end the conflict and together to began a peaceful transition to independence. The Dutch response was to ask Sukarno to turn himself in and to end the rebellion. The impasse continued.
March 3, 1957 The German A-11 rocket launches the first satellite into orbit. This will be the last great achievement of an independent German Space Program, as spending priorities on domestic programs will not permit further unilateral funding for the very expensive Space program. The German government begins to seek partners for Space exploration.
November 11th 1957- The Netherlands, suffering the third year of a civil war in their East Indies colonies, asks the Northern European Alliance for membership. Their goal is to get the other member nations involved in the war in the East Indies, though membership by no means assures this. By the end of the year parts of Sumatra, Bali and Borneo are effectively in hands of the rebels while a terrorist campaign against government forces is being fought in Java.

1958
February 17th 1958: Netherlands accepted in the Northern European Alliance but was dismayed when other member nations refused to get involved in the bloodbath in the East Indies.
April 16th 1958- Chile and Peru sign the Andean Pact, a defensive agreement, due to fears of the Argentines and problems in neighboring Bolivia.
July 4, 1958 The Republic of Germany, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America pool their resources to launch a joint space initiative, the North Atlantic Space Agency. The Central European Republic and other Alliance nations soon join the group as junior partners.
September 18th 1958 France explodes their first atomic bomb in the Sahara desert.

1959
August 5th 1959: The United States of America and the Philippines complete negotiations with the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere to form the Pacific-Asia Co-Prosperity Association (PACPA). One of the main goals of the Association is to strengthen capitalism in the region to combat the spread of Communism.
August 8th 1959- France announces their intention to create a French Union, similar in composition to the British Commonwealth. According to insiders, the colonies most likely to get self-rule by 1960 are Syria, Lebanon and Madagascar.
August 14th 1959- The People’s Republic of Uruguay signs a trade and cooperation agreement with the Soviet Union. The agreement includes the stationing of Soviet agricultural technicians in the nation to ensure the good use of the Soviet imports. Unfortunately, Soviet theories of agriculture will lead to a few famines instead.
September 9, 1959 - The World is shocked when the process of De-Stalinization finally goes public (having been ongoing secretly within the Communist Party of the USSR for years). The revelations of this time would make public the fact that Stalin was the greatest mass murderer in known history, causing many Communist regimes in other parts of the world to attempt to distance themselves from Stalinism, and generally discrediting Communism in the eyes of the rest of the world.
December 25, 1959 Japan explodes their first atomic weapon on Bikini Atoll.

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 05:59 PM

Weimar World timeline: 1960-2019

1960
October 30th 1960: Italy grants independence to their last colony of Somaliland. The nation takes the name of Somalia. The first new African nation since the founding of South Africa.

1961
October 8, 1961 The Soviet Union shocks the world by sending the first man into orbit. Funding of the North Atlantic Space Agency will increase significantly as the member nations dedicate themselves to putting a base on the moon by 1980.

1962
March 16th 1962: After close to ten years of war the Netherlands agreed to a ceasefire to begin negotiations to end the Indonesian war. By now the islands of Sumatra and Borneo are, except for some small enclaves, under the control of the rebels plus guerilla activity exists in all the islands in the archipelago.
March 19th 1962: The Imperial Japanese and the Kuomintang governments recognize the Indonesian rebel government as the representative of the Indonesian people. The covert help to the Indonesian movement since late 1957 was suspected but not verified until secret files of both the Chinese and Japanese governments were declassified in the early 21st century.
April 3, 1962 - Ludwig Erhard of the DVP becomes the first member of that party to win the Presidency of the German Republic. He had started out his career with the DNVP under Carl Friedrich Goerdeler, but left the party for the DVP after Goerdeler retired from politics.

1963
February 14, 1963 - Berlin based band 'Sealion' with their eclectic mix of American Rhythm and Blues and Klezmer music take the music scene by storm in Europe, releasing their first album on this date. They are eventually followed by several other bands with the 'Berlin Sound'. In England and America this period of pop culture is referred to as the 'Berlin Invasion'.

1969
April 8, 1969 Ludwig Erhard easily wins reelection to the Presidency of the German Republic.
June 2, 1969 NASA sends the first men to the moon (symbolically, a German, American, and Briton).
August 11, 1969 Germans celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the Weimar Constitution (date of its announcement).

1976
April 10, 1969 Herbert Ernst Karl Frahm wins the presidency, returning the office to the SPD for the first time since 1955. His term would see the final rapproachment between Poland and the German Republic.
July 4, 1976 Bicentennial of the signing of the US Declaration of Independence.
November 2, 1976 Ronald Wilson Reagan is elected President of the United States of America.

1979
August 20, 1979 The NASA moon base, a capsule buried under the lunar soil, goes into operation, a year ahead of the deadline set in 1961.

2019
August 11, 2019 The date of the Centennial celebration of the Weimar Consitution and the German Republic.

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 08:30 PM

Weimar World timeline: 1960-1969

1960
October 30th 1960: Italy grants independence to their last colony of Somaliland. The nation takes the name of Somalia. The first new African nation since the founding of South Africa.

1961
October 8, 1961 The Soviet Union shocks the world by sending the first man into orbit. Funding of the North Atlantic Space Agency will increase significantly as the member nations dedicate themselves to putting a base on the moon by 1980.

1962
March 16th 1962: After close to ten years of war the Netherlands agreed to a ceasefire to begin negotiations to end the Indonesian war. By now the islands of Sumatra and Borneo are, except for some small enclaves, under the control of the rebels plus guerilla activity exists in all the islands in the archipelago.
March 19th 1962: The Imperial Japanese and the Kuomintang governments recognize the Indonesian rebel government as the representative of the Indonesian people. The covert help to the Indonesian movement since late 1957 was suspected but not verified until secret files of both the Chinese and Japanese governments were declassified in the early 21st century.
April 3, 1962 - Ludwig Erhard of the DVP becomes the first member of that party to win the Presidency of the German Republic. He had started out his career with the DNVP under Carl Friedrich Goerdeler, but left the party for the DVP after Goerdeler retired from politics.

1963
February 14, 1963 - Berlin based band 'Sealion' with their eclectic mix of American Rhythm and Blues and Klezmer music take the music scene by storm in Europe, releasing their first album on this date. They are eventually followed by several other bands with the 'Berlin Sound'. In England and America this period of pop culture is referred to as the 'Berlin Invasion'.

1964
March 31, 1964 - For the first time since the 1940s, the US surpasses Germany as the number one trading partner of Brazil. The rest of the 1960s would see the position going back and forth between the two economic powers.

1965
August 15, 1965 - Laos becomes a full member of the French Union.

1966
February 26, 1966 - Cambodia is accepted as a full member of the French Union.

1967
July 4, 1967 - Caribe formally admitted as the fifty-first state of the Union. In the aftermath of the assassination of President Pepper, the Puerto Rican independence movement was discredited and a strong statehood movement took root, with increased English education being seen as vital to that effort. The statehood movement in Puerto Rico spurred a parallel movement in the US Virgin Islands as well. By the mid 1960s, congress was willing to admit both to the Union, but only as a single state. After difficult negotiations, it was finally decided that they would merge to become the State of Caribe.

1968
January 30, 1968 - Timed to coincide with the New Year, Vietnam formally gains its independence from France. Despite the best efforts of the French government, they were unable to talk the Vietnamese nationalists into joining the French Union, and eventually acknowledged their full independence after decades of struggle.

1969
April 8, 1969 Ludwig Erhard easily wins reelection to the Presidency of the German Republic.
June 2, 1969 NASA sends the first men to the moon (symbolically, a German, American, and Briton).
August 11, 1969 Germans celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the Weimar Constitution (date of its announcement).

Glen

November 22nd, 2005, 08:31 PM

Weimar World timeline: 1970-2019

1976
April 10, 1969 Herbert Ernst Karl Frahm wins the presidency, returning the office to the SPD for the first time since 1955. His term would see the final rapproachment between Poland and the German Republic.
July 4, 1976 Bicentennial of the signing of the US Declaration of Independence.
November 2, 1976 Ronald Wilson Reagan is elected President of the United States of America.

1979
August 20, 1979 The NASA moon base, a capsule buried under the lunar soil, goes into operation, a year ahead of the deadline set in 1961.

2019
August 11, 2019 The date of the Centennial celebration of the Weimar Consitution and the German Republic.

perdedor99

November 22nd, 2005, 09:00 PM

Well, Real quick while going out of the door. We need to find a way to get rid of Beria and malenkov between 1954 to 1959, plus Iran is not communism but leaning into the Russian camp and Egypt is leaning more and more into the nationalist camp.

Like the changes so far. In the case of PR,in 1952 we have a small coup attempt in OTL. I can image the clamp down on the movement could get a little bit repressive at the beginning after the Pepper assasination but it makes sense if they forced English education on the younger masses. By 1968 a generation raised under this system could have asked for the event mentioned.

South America is turning into camps, with Chile and Peru joined in an Pact facing Argentine, plus the Uruguayan experiment maybe is in the way out. Oth? any comments?

Wendell

November 22nd, 2005, 11:44 PM

Wendell

November 22nd, 2005, 11:47 PM

Time magazine, or The Times Magazine?

Glen

November 23rd, 2005, 12:18 AM

I think it would have happened under Vandy.

Write me an event with a date demonstrating Vandy doing it, and I will probably change it.

Wendell

November 23rd, 2005, 12:23 AM

Write me an event with a date demonstrating Vandy doing it, and I will probably change it.
I don't know precisely what you want to happen...

Glen

November 23rd, 2005, 12:29 AM

I don't know precisely what you want to happen...

I don't have a precise desire. Just show some plausible event at a plausible time that demonstrates the progress of the civil rights movement, like I did with the delayed Truman event.

Make it up!

If I don't like it, I'll alter it or discard it.

But most likely, it will just get included as long as it is plausible.

Glen

November 23rd, 2005, 01:12 AM

I think I'm going to butterfly Reagan to his first term starting in 1973...that way, he can be President during the bicentennial.

Glen

November 23rd, 2005, 01:18 AM

Weimar World timeline: 1970-1979

1970
January 3, 1970 - Former President Lettow-Vorbeck dies at the age of 99 years old. He lived to see a German set foot on the Moon...

1971
May 1, 1971 - Workers and Students participate in the worst May Day street riots of the 20th Century.

1972
September 3, 1972 - The Munich Incident starts. The UK had successfully petitioned the IOC to allow the Mandate of Jerusalem to send a team to the Olympics this year under their own flag. A Jewish terrorist organization struck for the first time outside the Levant when they took the Jerusalem team hostage. German Special Forces managed to kill most of the terrorists before any of the hostages could be executed, but one terrorist managed to fire his weapon at one of the Palestinian members of the team. Ironically, a fellow Jerusalem team-member, this one Jewish, threw himself in the line of fire saving his team mate's life at the cost of his own. More tragically, the incident set off nights of anti-semitic rioting in the major cities of Europe, with many synagogues and Jewish businesses being vandalized. The German President and Chancellor made a joint appearance with leaders of several other European nations to decry this wave of violence, stating that such throwbacks to an earlier age must never happen again. Unfortunately, this would only be the first example of international terrorism as both Palestinian and Jewish terrorist groups took their grudge match to the international stage.
November 7, 1972 - Ronald Wilson Reagan is elected President of the United States of America.

1973
May 11, 1973 President Reagan makes his famous 'Evil Empire of the East' speech about the USSR and its Asian Satellite States.

1974
June 1, 1974 Declassified documents in the 21st century would show that US covert support to the rebels fighting the Communist government of Uruguay reached its highest level at this date.

1975
March 12, 1975 The Leaders of Germany, USA, and Brazil meet in Havana to discuss democratization in South America.

1976
April 10, 1969 Herbert Ernst Karl Frahm wins the presidency, returning the office to the SPD for the first time since 1955. His term would see the final rapproachment between Poland and the German Republic.
July 4, 1976 Bicentennial of the signing of the US Declaration of Independence.
November 2, 1976 Ronald Wilson Reagan is re-elected President of the United States of America by the largest electoral vote in history.

1977
October 9, 1977 - The Nuclear Powers meet for an unprecedented multilateral summit, and pledge to freeze building of new nuclear weapons beyond replacement levels, and to work jointly to prevent further proliferation of nuclear weapons throughout the world.

1978
March 4, 1978 - The Uruguay Communist government is ousted from power, and the new government pledges free elections by the end of the year.

1979
August 20, 1979 The NASA moon base, a capsule buried under the lunar soil, goes into operation, a year ahead of the deadline set in 1961.

Glen

November 23rd, 2005, 11:02 PM

luakel

November 23rd, 2005, 11:18 PM

How did Stevenson become president? I thought we had agreed on Harriman or JPK Jr...

Glen

November 23rd, 2005, 11:51 PM

How did Stevenson become president? I thought we had agreed on Harriman or JPK Jr...

I think that is a leftover....

General_Paul

November 23rd, 2005, 11:54 PM

Ok, so can someone post the ENTIRE timeline from the founding of the Republic untill whenever we've left off? I love the TL, but hate having to go through all 58 pages of posts to read it all!

Glen

November 24th, 2005, 12:57 AM

A listing of the timeline of Weimar World from the 1920s to 1970s

Weimar World 1920s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=333218&postcount=1005

Weimar World 1930s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=333220&postcount=1006

Weimar World 1940s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=368272&postcount=1113

Weimar World 1950s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=368937&postcount=1136

Weimar World 1960s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=369040&postcount=1138

Weimar World 1970s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=369306&postcount=1147

B_Munro

November 24th, 2005, 05:03 AM

When do y'all think that the Soviet Union collapses? Will it be earlier or later without Eastern Europe?

Without them there is less pesky democracy or reform movements and such to deal with, but there is also a lot less economic opportunity as their client states are reduced, and I suspect that the gains in the East do not make up entirely for them.

Of course, with the West closer on the Russian doorstep, protection of the Rodina might be a more convincing call for the USSR. Then again, that won't work with the still sizeable number of ethnic minorities therein.

Couple things:

by the late Soviet period, eastern Europe was more of a drain than a benefit to the USSR, economically speaking.

Secondly, the ethnic factor was only a secondary thing in the collapse of the USSR: the problem was a collapse of authority and legitimacy at the center. Aside from the Caucuses and the Baltic states, nobody was struggling very hard to leave the USSR pre-coup. The Ukranians bolted quickly enough when it became clear the Soviet government in Russsia had essentially collapsed, but the pro-independence movement had been fairly feeble compared to the Balts, and the central asians had to be almost kicked out by Yeltsin.

Communism [1] does not work economically, and the Soviet government was corrupt, brutal and essentially a living contradiction to all the communist ideals which the USSR supposedly existed for. Under the circumstances, it is hard to see what will prevent steadily decreasing legitimacy: possibly a substitute can be found in Great Russian nationalism, which however will probably make the ethnic problem rather worse than OTL. Economic reform will also help, but with a somewhat less intense cold war, the Soviets may take even longer to register the need for fundamental change.

best,
Bruce

[1] Yes, all you crazy leftists, I mean the form of Communism used in _our_ TL.
:D

Glen

November 24th, 2005, 01:38 PM

Thanks for the comments.

BTW, folks, AFAIK, the 20s to the 40s are more or less solid (though additions that don't violate what's come before are okay). The 50s are getting close, maybe tie up or start up one or two other bits there.

The 60s need expansion, especially dealing with some of the loose threads started in the 40s and 50s.

The 70s are just a first draft, though I will anchor it with Reagan being elected in 72, since there's something that just seems right about having him preside over the bicentennial.

Some things to think about -

This is a multipolar world, with most of the powers in more or less friendly competition, France in a world of its own, and the Soviet Union the pariah of the powers.

The Soviets are more focused on Asia, and the US is more focused on the Pacific than OTL. Germany has a lot of economic interest in Central/Eastern Europe, South America, and some in their former colonies in Africa (LV legacy). The British are presiding over a much more orderly devolution of power within the Empire (because they aren't as exhausted in this one).

Poland is still an irritant and possible flashpoint in Europe (though I think this changes by the 1980s), Indonesia has a lot of potential for chaos, maybe the Spratley Islands also. China and Japan have grown into a surprisingly close partnership due to the Communist threats in the North. Wouldn't be surprised to see a major war at some point in South America. I actually don't see Cuba going communist in this one. Don't quite know what's going on in Central America. India is a loose confederation...do other regions break off or even join? Africa is better off than OTL so far, but still a lot of potential for conflict there (though might we see League Intervention there?). Does the USSR ever rejoin the League, and what of their satellites?

I think we need one or more tense Nuclear standoffs in the 1960s, especially given we don't have two big blocks, but a more complex situation. Most likely candidates...a USSR vs Japan/China stand-off that threatens to break out into nuclear war, or a Germany/British stand-off versus USSR for some reason.

What is going on with Western Europe, I wonder. France has reasonably cordial relations with her neighbors, but stands apart. The Netherlands has thrown in with the NEA, but what of Belgium? How about Portugal and Spain, for that matter? Might we see some attempt at a French led defense alliance a la the NEA to their East? The thing is, I can see France maybe trying it for the prestige and lingering paranoia, but not seriously.

Just some random thoughs. We need submissions of dated events, please, especially for the 1960s on.

perdedor99

November 24th, 2005, 07:39 PM

Some tidbits. Hope it works.

February 17th 1954- Loose coalition of Kaganovich, Molotov, Khrushchev and Zhukov participated in a succesful palace coup againsts Beria and Malenkov. Beria is killed and Manlenkov dismissed. End of Jewish persecution in the USSR.

October 13th 1961- British Commonwealth sanctioned South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia due to their policy of apartheid.

September 7th 1986- Belgium gave independence to the Congo after a process of Africanization that lasted 40 years.

March 13th 1955- Lazar Kaganovich and Vladimir Molotov replaced as leader of the Soviet Union and Foreign Minister in that order. The pro-reform minded Khrushchev and Zhukov ousted the two staunch stalinist members and began secret reforms to the Soviet institutions.

perdedor99

November 24th, 2005, 09:58 PM

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 12:18 AM

Some tidbits. Hope it works.

Every little bit helps.

February 17th 1954- Loose coalition of Kaganovich, Molotov, Khrushchev and Zhukov participated in a succesful palace coup againsts Beria and Malenkov. Beria is killed and Manlenkov dismissed. End of Jewish persecution in the USSR.

October 13th 1961- British Commonwealth sanctioned South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia due to their policy of apartheid.

September 7th 1986- Belgium gave independence to the Congo after a process of Africanization that lasted 40 years.

March 13th 1955- Lazar Kaganovich and Vladimir Molotov replaced as leader of the Soviet Union and Foreign Minister in that order. The pro-reform minded Khrushchev and Zhukov ousted the two staunch stalinist members and began secret reforms to the Soviet institutions.

These all sound fine to me.

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 12:27 AM

August 17th 1957- Mustafa Barzani speech in Mosul asks for independence for the Kurdish community in Iraq to the ruling Hashemite dynasty. This date is considered the beginning of the Kurdish War of independence. Both Iran and the USSR supported this rebel group.

I don't buy the Iranians backing a Kurdish independence movement; it would worry them too much given their own Kurds in the North, so if the USSR is working with the Iranians, I don't see it from them, either.

February 3rd 1962- After months of negotiation ending in failure, South Africa abandoned the Commonwealth and declared independence.

February 17th 1962- Federation of Rhodesia followed the South African example and declared independence from the Commonwealth.

This is a stronger UK than OTL at this point. Would they be so accepting of the South Africans and Rhodesians pulling out, I wonder? Also, while apartheid would be unsavory, would it be enough for the British to ostracize Commonwealth members to the point of their withdrawal, given the lack of a history of Nazi Germany ITTL?

May 17th 1952- With the unlikely support of the Peronists in Argentina and the Uruguayan Communist, the Movimiento Nacionalista Revolucionario (or MNR) took power in Bolivia and began a process of nationalization of the mines, agrarian reform and the division of the large estates to be distributed to the peasants.

Yes, very unlikely, I would think. Why do you see this happening?

August 11th 1960-With an ongoing two years guerilla war in the Andes seemingly without end, the Bolivian government accepts the Argentinian offer of troops to help in defeating the rebels and finalizes an arm purchase with the USSR. Uruguayan and Soviet technicians also arrived to help the Bolivians train in their new equipment.

Seems like the US might be getting involved somehow in this at some point.

January 3rd 1961-The Bolivian War starts with the advance of Chilenian forces in the direction of Sucre while Peruvian forces began their advance in the direction of La Paz. The Bolivians and their allies were surprised by the Andean Pact response to their suppression of the right wing guerillas.

This sounds like some fun. Where are the Brazilians in all this, and the Americans?

Keep those ideas coming!

perdedor99

November 25th, 2005, 12:44 AM

I don't buy the Iranians backing a Kurdish independence movement; it would worry them too much given their own Kurds in the North, so if the USSR is working with the Iranians, I don't see it from them, either.

IOTL the Iranian Shah actually backed up Barzani's guerilla war in the early 1960's plus Barzani studied in Baku. Good way to destabilize Iraq and not too far from OTL. perfect way for the Soviets to make inroads into the Middle East.

This is a stronger UK than OTL at this point. Would they be so accepting of the South Africans and Rhodesians pulling out, I wonder? Also, while apartheid would be unsavory, would it be enough for the British to ostracize Commonwealth members to the point of their withdrawal, given the lack of a history of Nazi Germany ITTL?

Agree, but the Indian Confederation is also a very important part of the Commonwealth and I can see them bitching for decades about the treatment of the indian ancestry South Africans by the whites. So it could go the British considered the Indians more valuable than the South Africans. And what will be the result? Will the Commonwealth launch an invasion of South Africa to save the minorities? :rolleyes:

Yes, very unlikely, I would think. Why do you see this happening?
IOTL the MNR actually achieved power in 1952. You're maybe right in the fascist argentinians and the communist Uruguayans working together. More like argentinians puppets them but with the purchase of weapons from the USSR Uruguayans and Soviets advisors arrived.

Seems like the US might be getting involved somehow in this at some point.
Well, the Chilenians and the Peruvians are American client states, so the possibility of US forces appearing if the war bogs down is very real.

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 12:44 AM

I'm sorry about axing Pope John Paul II as a soldier in this ATL, but I just don't see why that would happen given the history of Poland ITTL.

However, I also for similar reasons don't see him becoming Pope as he did IOTL. But thought this might make for an interesting event.

August 13, 1961 Bishop Karol Józef Wojtyła is martyred along with two others when Polish police open fire on an 'illegal' protest march against Polish eugenics and anti-semitic laws. Bishop Wojtyła would eventually be canonized as one of the first Polish saints in many years.

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 02:50 AM

IOTL the Iranian Shah actually backed up Barzani's guerilla war in the early 1960's plus Barzani studied in Baku. Good way to destabilize Iraq and not too far from OTL. perfect way for the Soviets to make inroads into the Middle East.

Well, having looked it up now, it appears a bit more complicated, since in OTL Iran turned against and/or abandoned the Kurdish movement several times over the decades. The USSR looks like a better bet. However, given the strength of USSR influence already in Iran, I don't think that the British or other Western powers will let more of the Middle East go.

So maybe there is a short-lived flirtation by the Iranians with the Kurdish Independence movement, but I don't see it either lasting or succeeding under these circumstances. We might see a rather nasty war in North Iraq, maybe even an Iran-Iraq war (proxy war) over this, but I don't see the Kurds being allowed a nation, especially with USSR support.

So maybe we edit this to a less dramatic event (first, it is doubtful that this is really the start of the Kurdish efforts to gain independence, and second, I don't think this conflict will go down in history as the Kurdish war of independence).

Agree, but the Indian Confederation is also a very important part of the Commonwealth and I can see them bitching for decades about the treatment of the indian ancestry South Africans by the whites. So it could go the British considered the Indians more valuable than the South Africans. And what will be the result? Will the Commonwealth launch an invasion of South Africa to save the minorities? :rolleyes:

No, they might launch an invasion to preserve the integrity of the Commonwealth, and further placate those interests in the Indian Confederation.

Either they don't push as hard on the racism issues and these two stay, or they do and then don't allow them to leave over it.

IOTL the MNR actually achieved power in 1952.

That's fine.

You're maybe right in the fascist argentinians and the communist Uruguayans working together. More like argentinians puppets them but with the purchase of weapons from the USSR Uruguayans and Soviets advisors arrived.

I'm not saying no here, just want to understand the seemingly counterintuitive alignment you suggest.

Well, the Chilenians and the Peruvians are American client states,

Indeed...goes along nicely with America's Pacific policy.

so the possibility of US forces appearing if the war bogs down is very real.

So the question is, should it bog down?

Othniel

November 25th, 2005, 03:57 AM

Hmm, Paraguay is already a puppet of Brazil...if they see this coup in Bolivia as connected to Urugauyian communists then we may well see an agressive stance against them, this moves Argentina into the Uruguanian camp, as that is often how inter continetial affairs worked between the Argentinians and the Brazillians. Seeing the nature of the alliance that moves Argentina slightly to the left by association compared to their intragralist-populist style fascism. If we can weasel in a war between Argentina and Brazil the annexation of Urugauy and/or Paraguay is quite possible in this conflict via a Iraq into Kuwait styled invasion, especially if Brazil attempts to install a more favorable goverment in Urugauy..

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 04:00 AM

Othniel

November 25th, 2005, 04:12 AM

What is the trajectory of Brazil's government over the next several decades? I am wondering whether the US and Germany see them as an ally or a threat. That can have a real impact on how this all shakes out.
I'm betting they treat them as both. An arm against anti-soviet goverments, and a hold out to absolutionary ways. Brazil I imagine is the type of goverment that one looks at as a trading partner, the regional power. Its obviously not going to go out of its way to offend the US or its allies. As for Germany I see no reason, one way or the other, for it to care about Brazil, except as a cog in its economy. Neither of them would be scared of it outside of its own backyard, and as it appears the USA, UK and the USSR are the outside powers there. UK hasn't been bugging them or projecting into Brazil. The USA and the USSR have though, and in direct competion with the USSR, Brazil has worked against their puppet, thus siding them with the United States for now.

Without nukes though it will not have the capibillity to project its power like other great powers. It may remain top dog in South America, but except to anyone but the USA that means nothing, and currently Brazil and the USA share a common enemy.

Perfect conditions for a growning Brazil to continue forward in their sins past.

Othniel

November 25th, 2005, 04:29 AM

At least that how the poltical appearances are taking place in my mind.

As for the next several decades it will directed against Argentina in most cases, depending on the circumstances and whom we believe is in power at the time. Consider that Peron angered both the extremes. Bolivia has taken a turn into a Soviet camp, indirectly. If Brazil's anti-communists views continue then both Uruguay and Bolivia are at risk for the installation of more 'friendly' goverements. Paraguay might start being shifted into Argentina's sphere of influence depending on the actions taken within the country and by both Brazil and Argentina, though that matters little due to its shink in population after the war of the triple alliance. Say Brazil finds Bolivia, or more importantly to them, the Uruguains as big trouble. Brazil threatens Uruguay to stop or they will make them. Argentina takes this as a sign of encrochment. (Uruguay is a traditional buffer state between Argentina and Brazil with it in either court its seen as a power play) Thats what kept intervention out so far is because of displeasure at either country influencing Uruguay.

If Argentina gets involved in Bolivia, I think Brazil will take that opening as a way for dealing with Uruguay. Then again a new younger leader might be better for that small projection as a way of legitmizing his role as leader of the new goverment.

Is it time to give Vargas a replacement during the 60s, or 70s and be replaced with a protege? He is getting old.

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 04:36 AM

I'm betting they treat them as both. An arm against anti-soviet goverments, and a hold out to absolutionary ways. Brazil I imagine is the type of goverment that one looks at as a trading partner, the regional power. Its obviously not going to go out of its way to offend the US or its allies. As for Germany I see no reason, one way or the other, for it to care about Brazil, except as a cog in its economy. Neither of them would be scared of it outside of its own backyard, and as it appears the USA, UK and the USSR are the outside powers there. UK hasn't been bugging them or projecting into Brazil. The USA and the USSR have though, and in direct competion with the USSR, Brazil has worked against their puppet, thus siding them with the United States for now.

Without nukes though it will not have the capibillity to project its power like other great powers. It may remain top dog in South America, but except to anyone but the USA that means nothing, and currently Brazil and the USA share a common enemy.

Perfect conditions for a growning Brazil to continue forward in their sins past.

So they are a fascist remnant that the USA tolerates as a convenient foil against communism and the Germans trade with but not much else?

However, given that they have strong economic ties to Germany and anti-communist cooperation with the USA, I wonder if we don't see gradual liberalization in Brazil.

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 04:41 AM

Othniel

November 25th, 2005, 04:49 AM

So they are a fascist remnant that the USA tolerates as a convenient foil against communism and the Germans trade with but not much else?

However, given that they have strong economic ties to Germany and anti-communist cooperation with the USA, I wonder if we don't see gradual liberalization in Brazil.
With the absence of other fasicist goverments any direct alliance I suppose would not show the same ammount of hypocracy as OTL. I content that Brazil will be looking unquiely on how its leader thinks as it is almost more of a benvolent dictatorship. Vargas was a master at poltics, a diplomatic chamleon of sorts, able to shift to suit the times. But with a change in leadership might we see Brazil become a fasicist version of China?

Acualtly that may the best analog you could do, Vargas as the rightist Brazillian Mao, his sucessor, (a model easy enough to follow given the post termoil rise of the Estado Novo) and that becoming more of its own state over time with the death of its idealogical benefactor. Though it looks more like Salazar will be credited with that poltical model then Mussolini for Brazillian fascism. And the rascism element never was part of it, Brazil in fact celebrating often its partial African hertiage. Instead we see the left overs of an already more liberial outlook within fascism....it will take a long time though.

Othniel

November 25th, 2005, 04:55 AM

70s I'd say.

I wrote some things about Uruguay and Brazil in the 70s portion of the timeline just to sorta get things going; what do you think of them?
How about 1968 Vargas announces his resignation from office due to health reasons, having appointed a little known succosr outside of his inner circle. A promising young mayor from a new founded city in the Brazillian interior, someone that represents his success with the colonization westward. Now say that Vargas has given time to shape him, and we see this new figure as more ambitious, wanting to solify realations with nations in the fight against the spread of communism.

I'm not sure about the events in the seventies really..

perdedor99

November 25th, 2005, 10:18 AM

So maybe there is a short-lived flirtation by the Iranians with the Kurdish Independence movement, but I don't see it either lasting or succeeding under these circumstances. We might see a rather nasty war in North Iraq, maybe even an Iran-Iraq war (proxy war) over this, but I don't see the Kurds being allowed a nation, especially with USSR support.

So maybe we edit this to a less dramatic event (first, it is doubtful that this is really the start of the Kurdish efforts to gain independence, and second, I don't think this conflict will go down in history as the Kurdish war of independence).

No problem. Still A proxy war will be a drain to the British Empire.

No, they might launch an invasion to preserve the integrity of the Commonwealth, and further placate those interests in the Indian Confederation.

Either they don't push as hard on the racism issues and these two stay, or they do and then don't allow them to leave over it.

Invading South Africa will not be easy. Also with no Nazi Germany just invading for the sake of the poor abused masses of South Africa will be seeing more like the Imperial Great Britain flexing muscle and not letting parts of their Empire go. Perfect propaganda for the Soviets and maybe the beginning of the end of the Empire.

Also IMO the NEA will not get involved in this action, the British calling it a Commonwealth internal matter, and counting with the unlimited supply of troops of the Indian Confederation to deal with the South Africans.

I also see as a problem the problems this could take for the military. No bases close by, the transport of forces will take forever, supplying of troops, etc. This action could be the drain of the British Empire.

Indeed...goes along nicely with America's Pacific policy.
So the question is, should it bog down?

IMO they will see Argentines and Uruguayans as a threat to stability in the area and the Pact invade. Most likely the rebels are being supported by both the Andean Pact and the Brazilians anyway but the arrival of Argentine troops will change the ecuation in Bolivia.

I see the Peruvians maybe capturing La Paz, but the area where the fight is going on is not a very good one for maneuvering. They will bog down before the onset of winter.(June or July, don't remember.)

Brazil could try to also invade, but this could force the Argentines to invade Paraguay to keep the Brazilians focus away from Bolivia and Uruguay. Also I see Uruguay like a little Cuba, an army very powerful for their size due to the very real threat of their neighbors taking them out. And Glen seems is planning their fall in the 70's, so I guess they sat this conflict out but they willbe affected, at least indirectly.

perdedor99

November 25th, 2005, 01:19 PM

So who will be the British Prime Minister during the South African conflict or War? whatever we decide.

Also who is the POTUS during the Bolivian War and the crisis in Africa? Stevenson after reelection or someone else?

And with the British busy with the South Africans, could it be possible the Kurds destabilize Iraq with Soviet help?

And what the French will do while all this is going on? And the Chinese and the Japanese?

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 01:45 PM

Some of the interrelations in Weimar World.

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 01:51 PM

QUOTE (Ivan @ Nov 25 2005, 12:10 AM)
Glen, you asked me if I had evidence that Stalin wanted to invade Europe? I believe I have a little...

Cool! So, you going to just taunt us with it, or share with the group?

BTW, in doing all this research, I've come up with my own hair-brained theory regarding Stalin's desires vis-a-vie territorial acquisition.

I think Stalin wanted to reconstitute most of the lands formerly held by the Russian Empire into the USSR proper (as politics and military victory allowed), and beyond that I think he wanted a buffer of satellite states surrounding his borders, especially in Europe.

Just a theory that occured to me when I was trying to figure out why some things were annexed to the Soviet Union, and some were made satellites.

perdedor99

November 25th, 2005, 02:43 PM

more tidbits

September 14th 1964- Dutch Indies achieves independence on this date and change the name to Republic of Indonesia.

October 17th 1976- Indonesia is accepted as a member of the PACPA.

July 12th 1977- Kingdom of Vietnam accepted as member of PACPA.

August 13th 1958- American Marines landed in Cuba to help in squelching rebellion in the Santiago and Oriente provinces. President Stevenson declared "the United States will not let a nation so close to our borders be destabilized by criminals and outlaws. We will stand by General Batista to the end." But privately the US asked Batista to retire while a more reform minded leader could be found to be put in charge of the Cuban nation.

Thande

November 25th, 2005, 02:52 PM

perdedor99

November 25th, 2005, 03:27 PM

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 03:42 PM

Just posting to say this is a great timeline, and that I'm glad people have started using those OTL map templates with the universal colour scheme I and Sean Swaby put up - that's what they're there for. :)

Thanks for the compliment, and thanks for the work you and Sean have done on the OTL map templates.

Please do more of them!!!

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 03:45 PM

March 16th 1958- Charles de Gaulle, hero of the Tunisian War, elected Prime Minister of France.

April 14th 1961- La Paz falls to Peruvian forces. But with the weather deterioration due to the coming fall the fronts stabilized until the Spring.

Good.

September 19th 1960- Francisco Franco steps down as ruler of Spain and names young Prince Juan Carlos Borbon as his successor. He inmediatly went into exile to Argentina.

Why would Franco diverge from his OTL history? I see Spain as a bit insulated from the changes in this timeline, and thought that it would develop the same way until after Juan Carlos establishes a democratic monarchy.

September 27th 1960- France recognizes the new Spanish government as the legitimate representative of that nation and stops their covert support to guerillas in that country.

Interesting side post, and possible. Did France do any of that OTL?

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 03:46 PM

perdedor99

November 25th, 2005, 10:16 PM

Why would Franco diverge from his OTL history? I see Spain as a bit insulated from the changes in this timeline, and thought that it would develop the same way until after Juan Carlos establishes a democratic monarchy.
IOTL Spain was on chaos after WW2 and only the massive help of the US in the 1950's helped that regime survive. France was against this accomodation of the Fascist regime as a tool of the Cold War but the US made it clear Spain was a valuable ally versus the Russian Bear. And you know the US hear their allies ideas always. Or maybe not.

Interesting side post, and possible. Did France do any of that OTL?

IOTL France wanted to get rid of Franco soon after WW2 and supported some groups but as I say before, Franco survived as long as he did thanks to the old USA.

Othniel

November 25th, 2005, 10:55 PM

You know, fascism survives much longer in the Latin countries than anywhere else ITTL. Without the shadow of Nazism, would it perhaps become seen as something particular to the Hispanic character (erroneously, of course)?
More latin than anything else I think; being linked to Portugal, Spain, Italy, Brazil, Paraguay, and Argentina at sperate points. Be it American or Mediterrain.:D

Glen

November 25th, 2005, 11:49 PM

IOTL Spain was on chaos after WW2 and only the massive help of the US in the 1950's helped that regime survive. France was against this accomodation of the Fascist regime as a tool of the Cold War but the US made it clear Spain was a valuable ally versus the Russian Bear. And you know the US hear their allies ideas always. Or maybe not.

Well, on the one hand, France is feeling muscular ITTL.

On the other hand, Spain still has strategic value and could be courted by the NEA. Italy got beaten, but their economy is much less ravaged from the Tunisian war than WWII I'd think, and thus Spain has a reasonable possibility of a trade partner there. Also several South American countries to trade with.

I just don't see Franco stepping down like that; I think he'd have to be forced out.

Salazar's New State and Franco's Spain both last basically until the mid 1970s IOTL. I would think we would see similar ITTL, unless someone chooses to act differently (mainly France).

IOTL France wanted to get rid of Franco soon after WW2 and supported some groups but as I say before, Franco survived as long as he did thanks to the old USA.

I think that Spain could actually find more overall support ITTL than OTL. But then again, are they as important given that with no satellites on the Med, the USSR is essentially locked in the Black Sea if the NEA so desires.

perdedor99

November 26th, 2005, 12:09 AM

Well, on the one hand, France is feeling muscular ITTL.

On the other hand, Spain still has strategic value and could be courted by the NEA. Italy got beaten, but their economy is much less ravaged from the Tunisian war than WWII I'd think, and thus Spain has a reasonable possibility of a trade partner there. Also several South American countries to trade with.

I just don't see Franco stepping down like that; I think he'd have to be forced out.

Salazar's New State and Franco's Spain both last basically until the mid 1970s IOTL. I would think we would see similar ITTL, unless someone chooses to act differently (mainly France).

He's being forced out. The economy is on shambles, his nation is a pariah and the French must be supporting anti-fascist movements in Spain. The only thing that saved that regime from ruin IOTL was the massive aid send by the US during the Cold War in the 1950's.

I think that Spain could actually find more overall support ITTL than OTL. But then again, are they as important given that with no satellites on the Med, the USSR is essentially locked in the Black Sea if the NEA so desires
Exactly my point. They serve no purpose in the big scope of the multi group Cold War ITTL. The Soviets are more preocupated with the Far East and the Middle East.The NEA have very big influence in the Balkans and Central and Eastern Europe. IMO the French will view the Western Med as being part of their sphere. Seeing a more palatable government in Spain could be one of their priorities.

In an unrelated point, IMO the French economy and the Union eventually will go to hell. The French Union could be a response to get the colonies to help with the economic burden the Vietnamese war of independence is turning to be (1945 to 1968 if that dates stayed)plus the damages caused by the short Tunisian War. The former colonies will IMO resent being forced to help to pay to keep the standards of living in metropolitan France high while seeing only benefits secondary to the ones in the mother country.

perdedor99

November 26th, 2005, 12:13 AM

So what about the ideas for the 60's?

Does the new Soviet Regime sound agreeable?

Will the Kurdish rebellion turns into a proxy war or just fizzle?

Will South Africa turn into the Commonwealths' Vietnam?

How the Bolivian war will end? I agree Uruguay last until 1978. So what will the results of this war will be?

What will happen in Spain?

perdedor99

November 26th, 2005, 03:37 PM

May 24th 1961- Khrushchev first Soviet leader to visit the West, landing in Berlin on this date to meet with the German president.

March 19th 1962- Great Britain declares the actions of South Africa and Rhodesia to be illegal and to rescind their declarations of independence.

March 21st 1962- South Africa and Federation of Rhodesia present their case to the League of Nations in Geneva.

perdedor99

November 28th, 2005, 01:00 AM

This is the new events so far for the 1950's and the future.

May 17th 1952- With the unlikely support of the Peronist in Argentina and the Uruguayan Communist, the Movimiento Nacionalista Revolucionario (or MNR) took power in Bolivia and began a process of nationalization of the mines, agrarian reform and the division of the large estates to be distributed to the peasants.

February 17th 1954- Loose coalition of Kaganovich, Molotov, Khrushchev and Zhukov participated in a succesful palace coup againsts Beria and Malenkov. Beria is killed and Manlenkov dismissed. End of Jewish persecution in the USSR.

March 13th 1955- Lazar Kaganovich and Vladimir Molotov replaced as leader of the Soviet Union and Foreign Minister in that order. The pro-reform minded Khrushchev and Zhukov ousted the two staunch stalinist members and began secret reforms to the Soviet institutions.

August 17th 1957- Mustafa Barzani speech in Mosul asks for independence for the Kurdish community in Iraq to the ruling Hashemite dynasty. This date is considered the beginning of the Kurdish War of independence. Both Iran and the USSR supported this rebel group.

March 16th 1958- Charles de Gaulle, hero of the Tunisian War, elected Prime Minister of France.

August 13th 1958- American Marines landed in Cuba to help in squelching rebellion in the Santiago and Oriente provinces. President Stevenson declared "the United States will not let a nation so close to our borders be destabilized by criminals and outlaws. We will stand by General Batista to the end." But privately the US asked Batista to retire while a more reform minded leader could be found to be put in charge of the Cuban nation.

August 11th 1960-With an ongoing two years guerilla war in the Andes seemingly without end, the Bolivian government accepts the Argentinian offer of troops to help in defeating the rebels and finalizes an arm purchase with the USSR. Uruguayan and Soviet technicians also arrived to help the Bolivians train in their new equipment.

September 19th 1960- Francisco Franco steps down as ruler of Spain and names young Prince Juan Carlos Borbon as his successor. He inmediatly went into exile to Argentina.

September 27th 1960- France recognizes the new Spanish government as the legitimate representative of that nation and stops their covert support to guerillas in that country.

January 3rd 1961-The Bolivian War starts with the advance of Chilenian forces in the direction of Sucre while Peruvian forces began their advance in the direction of La Paz. The Bolivians and their allies were surprised by the Andean Pact response to their suppression of the right wing guerillas.

April 14th 1961- La Paz falls to Peruvian forces. But with the weather deterioration due to the coming fall the fronts stabilized until the Spring.

May 24th 1961- Khrushchev first Soviet leader to visit the West, landing in Berlin on this date to meet with the German president.

August 13, 1961 Bishop Karol Józef Wojtyła is martyred along with two others when Polish police open fire on an 'illegal' protest march against Polish eugenics and anti-semitic laws. Bishop Wojtyła would eventually be canonized as one of the first Polish saints in many years.

October 13th 1961- British Commonwealth sanctioned South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia due to their policy of apartheid.

February 3rd 1962- After months of negotiation ending in failure, South Africa abandoned the Commonwealth and declared independence.

February 17th 1962- Federation of Rhodesia followed the South African example and declared independence from the Commonwealth.

March 19th 1962- Great Britain declares the actions of South Africa and Rhodesia to be illegal and to rescind their declarations of independence.

March 21st 1962- South Africa and Federation of Rhodesia present their case to the League of Nations in Geneva.

September 14th 1964- Dutch Indies achieves independence on this date and change the name to Republic of Indonesia.

October 17th 1976- Indonesia is accepted as a member of the PACPA.

July 12th 1977- Kingdom of Vietnam accepted as member of PACPA.

September 7th 1986- Belgium gave independence to the Congo after a process of Africanization that lasted 40 years.

Glen

November 28th, 2005, 03:12 PM

This is the new events so far for the 1950's and the future.

First off, thanks for pulling these all together, definitely makes it easier.

May 17th 1952- With the unlikely support of the Peronist in Argentina and the Uruguayan Communist, the Movimiento Nacionalista Revolucionario (or MNR) took power in Bolivia and began a process of nationalization of the mines, agrarian reform and the division of the large estates to be distributed to the peasants.

February 17th 1954- Loose coalition of Kaganovich, Molotov, Khrushchev and Zhukov participated in a succesful palace coup againsts Beria and Malenkov. Beria is killed and Manlenkov dismissed. End of Jewish persecution in the USSR.

March 13th 1955- Lazar Kaganovich and Vladimir Molotov replaced as leader of the Soviet Union and Foreign Minister in that order. The pro-reform minded Khrushchev and Zhukov ousted the two staunch stalinist members and began secret reforms to the Soviet institutions.

All approved as is, will be added to the next iteration of the timeline.

August 17th 1957- Mustafa Barzani speech in Mosul asks for independence for the Kurdish community in Iraq to the ruling Hashemite dynasty. This date is considered the beginning of the Kurdish War of independence. Both Iran and the USSR supported this rebel group.

Want to tone this one down a bit, something more like this -

August 17th 1957- Mustafa Barzani gives a speech in Mosul calling for independence for the Kurdish community in Iraq from the ruling Hashemite dynasty. This speech would spark the beginning of the Kurdish Conflict. Both Iran and the USSR support Barzani's call at the time as a way to undermine the British Commonwealth's Iraqi Kingdom.

March 16th 1958- Charles de Gaulle, hero of the Tunisian War, elected Prime Minister of France.

Fine and will be in the next iteration.

August 13th 1958- American Marines landed in Cuba to help in squelching rebellion in the Santiago and Oriente provinces. The US President declared "the United States will not let a nation so close to our borders be destabilized by criminals and outlaws. We will stand by General Batista to the end." But privately the US asked Batista to retire while a more reform minded leader could be found to be put in charge of the Cuban nation.

Removed the Stevenson's mention from the above, as it seems no one wants him anymore for a president. Will get a new one later... But otherwise, this is fine.

August 11th 1960-With an ongoing two years guerilla war in the Andes seemingly without end, the Bolivian government accepts the Argentinian offer of troops to help in defeating the rebels and finalizes an arm purchase with the USSR. Uruguayan and Soviet technicians also arrived to help the Bolivians train in their new equipment.

Fine AFAIK.

September 19th 1960- Francisco Franco steps down as ruler of Spain and names young Prince Juan Carlos Bourbon as his successor. He inmediatly went into exile to Argentina.

I'm still not certain of this. IOTL, Franco never even left Spain. I just don't see him giving up and going into exile like this. Other problems; Juan Carlos was born in 1938 so though it is likely that there is a Juan Carlos Bourbon (family names and all), it is unlikely to be the same extrordinary figure we see IOTL (though maybe sharing some of the same qualities, or at least making some similar decisions), and Franco didn't name him his successor until nearly the end.

I agree that Spain is likely to be considered in France's sphere of influence, at least by France, and that France would put a lot of pressure on Spain, but I'm not certain I see this playing out this way. How about a palace coup by Juan Carlos with French backing? Maybe after Franco dies in an accident or something?

September 27th 1960- France recognizes the new Spanish government as the legitimate representative of that nation and stops their covert support to guerillas in that country.

January 3rd 1961-The Bolivian War starts with the advance of Chilenian forces in the direction of Sucre while Peruvian forces began their advance in the direction of La Paz. The Bolivians and their allies were surprised by the Andean Pact response to their suppression of the right wing guerillas.

April 14th 1961- La Paz falls to Peruvian forces. But with the weather deterioration due to the coming fall the fronts stabilized until the Spring.

May 24th 1961- Khrushchev first Soviet leader to visit the West, landing in Berlin on this date to meet with the German president.

August 13, 1961 Bishop Karol Józef Wojtyła is martyred along with two others when Polish police open fire on an 'illegal' protest march against Polish eugenics and anti-semitic laws. Bishop Wojtyła would eventually be canonized as one of the first Polish saints in many years.

October 13th 1961- British Commonwealth sanctioned South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia due to their policy of apartheid.

February 3rd 1962- After months of negotiation ending in failure, South Africa abandoned the Commonwealth and declared independence.

February 17th 1962- Federation of Rhodesia followed the South African example and declared independence from the Commonwealth.

March 19th 1962- Great Britain declares the actions of South Africa and Rhodesia to be illegal and to rescind their declarations of independence.

These all seem okay.

March 21st 1962- South Africa and Federation of Rhodesia present their case to the League of Nations in Geneva.

Hmmm, interesting dilemma...national self-determination versus racism. Maybe the League orders a FULL (ie, the entire population) pleblicite on commonwealth status, with the South Africans and Rhodesians then pulling out of the League in protest? Leading to a League sponsored action to bring these illegal and rogue governments to task?

Use human rights as a shield to keep the old order going. To some it will be a cynical sham, to others a hopeful new stride in protecting human rights. In truth, it will end up being both?

September 14th 1964- Dutch Indies achieves independence on this date and change the name to Republic of Indonesia.

October 17th 1976- Indonesia is accepted as a member of the PACPA.

Ah, that Sino-Chinese Influence, I suppose... Is Indonesia actually quieting down?

July 12th 1977- Kingdom of Vietnam accepted as member of PACPA.

Kingdom, eh? Bao Dai isn't going to abdicate ITTL you think? I could see the Japanese favoring the restoration of an imperial state in Vietnam, whereas the Chinese would prefer a Republican state. The rebels have fought long and hard for their freedom from the French, would they want any sort of monarch, one who must have been collaborating with the French all this time. I think it would be the Republic of Vietnam, most likely. But I'm open to other opinions around here.

PACPA membership seems likely.

September 7th 1986- Belgium gave independence to the Congo after a process of Africanization that lasted 40 years.

Hopefully with a happier fate for Congo...hard to be much worse than OTL...

Wendell

November 28th, 2005, 07:02 PM

The British Empire had permanence in some form?

Glen

November 28th, 2005, 07:32 PM

The British Empire had permanence in some form?

A very interesting idea, though I doubt it will hold together like that ITTL. However, a more robust Commonwealth seems possible, given the avoidance of WWII.

Actually, we have a more robust and long lasting British Commonwealth and French Union here (there was a French Union OTL, apparently).

Furthermore, I was thinking that we might see the French Union continue, but with France being expelled! :eek:

Wendell

November 28th, 2005, 07:34 PM

A very interesting idea, though I doubt it will hold together like that ITTL. However, a more robust Commonwealth seems possible, given the avoidance of WWII.

Actually, we have a more robust and long lasting British Commonwealth and French Union here (there was a French Union OTL, apparently).

Furthermore, I was thinking that we might see the French Union continue, but with France being expelled! :eek:
The French Union of OTL was nothing like my idea for such a thing, however.

Glen

November 28th, 2005, 08:18 PM

The French Union of OTL was nothing like my idea for such a thing, however.

Wasn't it hoped to become so, though?

perdedor99

November 28th, 2005, 08:32 PM

Some more tidbits. Middle East until 1964

Middle East 1958- 1964

April 15th 1958- 110 dead in terrorist bombing in downtown Baghdad. British High Commissioner and King Faisal II both declare state of emergency in the Kingdom.

April 17th 1958- High-level guerilla activity began operations in the mountains of northern Iraq. King Faisal II orders armed forces to stomp rebels.

October 4th 1958- summer campaign versus guerillas in Northern Iraq ended in an inconclusive manner. King Faisal II asks British government for help.

October 8th 1958- British Prime Minister McMillan pledge help to the Iraqi Kingdom in the form of weapons and advisors.

April 17th 1960- Kurdish War enters its second year. No end in sight. British pledge combat troops to try to end the impasse. First corroborated proof of Iranian “volunteers” fighting with rebels.

November 28th 1960- First British land forces enter combat in Iraq. The so-called “Christmas Gift” offensive that lasted until January 16th caused massive casualties to the rebels and effectively ended high tempo operations by them but still low-level activity continued.

February 18th 1961- Terrorist bombing to the British barracks of the Sherwood Foresters in Mosul killed 47 troopers and wounded 122. This date considered the beginning of the second phase of the wars. This phase turned into an urban terrorist campaign due to the superior performance of British troops on the field of battle reduced guerilla activity during this time.

June 14th 1961- Conflict expands into Syria. First reported terrorist attacks in Northern Syria.

August 13th 1961- Protest in Port Said calling for the British withdraw from the Suez Canal area broken up by British military police. 12 dead in the confrontation and while publicly the Egyptian government supported the British action; negotiations began in Geneva to end the British presence in the area.

November 13th 1961- First round of negotiations between the British and Egyptian government ended in an impasse. While both sides agreed to a gradual devolution of the area to Egypt, the British plan (return to Egypt in phases with a final handover in 2000) was seem by the Egyptian representatives as too extreme.

March 7th 1963- with the continued deterioration of the condition in South Africa, British Prime Minister Rab Butler announces British forces will abandon Iraq for service in South Africa. It was announced a small ground reaction force was going to be kept in Kuwait and some air support squadrons were going to stay in service in Iraq.

November 3rd 1963- Last British ground forces in Iraq cross the border into Kuwait. This date considered being the beginning of the third stage of the Arab conflicts.

March 13th 1964- Iraq accuses Iran of funding and arming guerrillas in Kurdistan. Iran denies the charges and orders a mobilization of their armed forces in response.

April 7th 1964- Third round of negotiations between Egypt and Great Britain ended in another impasse due to the Egyptian refusal to accept a 20-year phased handover.

May 4th 1964- Iranian troops cross the border into Iraq near Basra and in the northern provinces. Start of the Iraq-Iran War.

Wendell

November 28th, 2005, 08:33 PM

Wasn't it hoped to become so, though?
Somewhat so, yes, but in my scenario, the African components would be equally part of France, as provinces (along with OTL's regions within France proper today). The portion of France within continental Europe would be known as the Gaul Region of the French Republic. Each Province, whether Haute-Normandie, Algerie, or Gabon, would be divided further into Departements.

perdedor99

November 28th, 2005, 08:36 PM

more tidbits. South Africa until the beginning of combat.

South Africa: 1962

March 27th 1962- British Prime Minister Rab Butler declares the actions of South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia as illegal and null. Ask the Commonwealth members for support on a police action to remove the now considered illegal governments in those nations. While public reaction is mixed in Canada and Australia-New Zealand, he receives a lot of support in favor of this action in the African colonies and the Indian Federation.

April 2nd 1962- South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia mobilizes their Citizen Force, expecting action by the Commonwealth against them.

April 6th 1962- Northern Rhodesia and Nysaliland announced their intention of staying in the Commonwealth. Rhodesian security forces began fighting with pro-Commonwealth factions in those areas. Considered the date the South African War started.

April 8th 1962- Canada pledge a Canadian Expeditionary Force composed of elements equal to a division plus support elements attached. This force was ready for deployment by the middle of May 1962.

April 9th 1962- Australia and New Zealand announced a combined ANZAC force equivalent to two infantry divisions and support units were going to be ready for deployment by the middle of May 1962.

April 10th 1962- Indian Federation’s Prime Minister Hatta pledges, “The whole might of the Indian Armed forces is at the disposition of the Commonwealth to eliminate the scourge apartheid is to the Indians living in South Africa.” No mention was made of the effects of that institution on the African natives.

May 6th 1962- Task Force Albacore, anchored around the 41st Commando Brigade, captures Walvis Bay after 24 hours of heavy fighting. With the capture of the area a forward deployment base began to be build to receive further reinforcements to end the bid of South African independence.

May 8th 1962- First Indian forces began arriving to Tanganika to be marshaled for the move south.

Wendell

November 28th, 2005, 08:38 PM

Will Portugal be drawn into your war?

perdedor99

November 28th, 2005, 08:46 PM

Want to tone this one down a bit, something more like this -

August 17th 1957- Mustafa Barzani gives a speech in Mosul calling for independence for the Kurdish community in Iraq from the ruling Hashemite dynasty. This speech would spark the beginning of the Kurdish Conflict. Both Iran and the USSR support Barzani's call at the time as a way to undermine the British Commonwealth's Iraqi Kingdom.

Agree completely.

Removed the Stevenson's mention from the above, as it seems no one wants him anymore for a president. Will get a new one later... But otherwise, this is fine.

Ok. no problem.

I'm still not certain of this. IOTL, Franco never even left Spain. I just don't see him giving up and going into exile like this. Other problems; Juan Carlos was born in 1938 so though it is likely that there is a Juan Carlos Bourbon (family names and all), it is unlikely to be the same extrordinary figure we see IOTL (though maybe sharing some of the same qualities, or at least making some similar decisions), and Franco didn't name him his successor until nearly the end.

I agree that Spain is likely to be considered in France's sphere of influence, at least by France, and that France would put a lot of pressure on Spain, but I'm not certain I see this playing out this way. How about a palace coup by Juan Carlos with French backing? Maybe after Franco dies in an accident or something?

IIRC he named him his succesor early on the sixties. Also i see the situation in Spain as being worse than IOTL. And I think France could be trying to raise their influence in the area.

Hmmm, interesting dilemma...national self-determination versus racism. Maybe the League orders a FULL (ie, the entire population) pleblicite on commonwealth status, with the South Africans and Rhodesians then pulling out of the League in protest? Leading to a League sponsored action to bring these illegal and rogue governments to task?

Use human rights as a shield to keep the old order going. To some it will be a cynical sham, to others a hopeful new stride in protecting human rights. In truth, it will end up being both?

Agree. I don't see the Commonwealth asking the League for help. They will thank them for their support but will try to handle the situation as an internal matter IMO.

Ah, that Sino-Chinese Influence, I suppose... Is Indonesia actually quieting down?
IMO at least for a while.

Kingdom, eh? Bao Dai isn't going to abdicate ITTL you think? I could see the Japanese favoring the restoration of an imperial state in Vietnam, whereas the Chinese would prefer a Republican state. The rebels have fought long and hard for their freedom from the French, would they want any sort of monarch, one who must have been collaborating with the French all this time. I think it would be the Republic of Vietnam, most likely. But I'm open to other opinions around here.

IIRC Bao Dai was offered to the Viet Mihn as part of a peace accord. The Viet Mihn, being in a stronger position in OTL, refused. But here, after more than 20 years of fighting they are maybe more receptive to keep the ceremonial monarch to achieve their objectives.

Hopefully with a happier fate for Congo...hard to be much worse than OTL

Better prepared for the future. IMO for the better.

perdedor99

November 28th, 2005, 08:48 PM

Will Portugal be drawn into your war?
That's why I stopped there. So we can discuss the possible events. IMO Salazar have to be an idiot to piss off the British. But I can see some supplies reaching the South Africans thru the neutral ports of Mozambique.

Wendell

November 28th, 2005, 09:17 PM

That's why I stopped there. So we can discuss the possible events. IMO Salazar have to be an idiot to piss off the British. But I can see some supplies reaching the South Africans thru the neutral ports of Mozambique.
I was thinking that the Rhodesians might do something stupid, and try to occupy parts of Mozambique for coastal access.

Nicole

November 28th, 2005, 09:20 PM

In OTL the Rhodesians used Mozambique without much Portuguese protest (in fact, the Portuguese voted against many of the anti-Rhodesian UN resolutions) to get supplies, and I don't really see the Rhodesians thinking they'd have any chance of occupying enough of Mozambique to have a coast, expecially in the middle of the war with Britain.

Wendell

November 29th, 2005, 04:37 AM

Nicole

November 29th, 2005, 01:40 PM

Very valid points, but this would be a different situation than in OTL.
You still have the problem that the Rhodesians are likely having trouble with the British, and are trying to present themselves as the good guys here. Invading Mozambique would ruin that, and I would think that Portugal would quietly allow trade through the area anyway.

Wendell

November 29th, 2005, 08:27 PM

You still have the problem that the Rhodesians are likely having trouble with the British, and are trying to present themselves as the good guys here. Invading Mozambique would ruin that, and I would think that Portugal would quietly allow trade through the area anyway.
Good point. You're right about that. Although, people are often not rational in times of war.

Nicole

November 29th, 2005, 08:29 PM

Good point. You're right about that. Although, people are often not rational in times of war.
Well, irrationality and randomly striking out at neighboring neutral countries that are quietly aiding you are two different things... Though I suppose comparisons could be made to Barbarossa, :p

Wendell

November 29th, 2005, 08:30 PM

Well, irrationality and randomly striking out at neighboring neutral countries that are quietly aiding you are two different things... Though I suppose comparisons could be made to Barbarossa, :p
Exactly my thought.

perdedor99

November 29th, 2005, 08:34 PM

Other tidbits 1960-1970

September 27th 1967- New York Yankees outfielder Lou Brock breaks the record of stolen bases in a season, ending the season with 115 stolen bases. Brock, acquired by the Yankees after the 1965 season from the Cubs, “has changed the Yankees from a power ball to a small ball club” according to his manager Yogi Berra.

October 15th 1961- Los Angeles Dodgers outfielder Willie Mays wins the National League MVP after leading the Dodgers to the World Series. The Dodgers lost the series but thanks to the 321 AVG, 52 Hrs and 132 RBIs by Mays they won the National League pennant by 7 games over the Cardinals.

September 8th 1966- Bulgaria admitted into the NEA after German recommendation in favor of their membership.

November 17th 1969- On the seventh anniversary of the resignation of President Batista, Cuban Foreign Minister Frank Pais acknowledged the help United States gave his nation to achieve the status of a stable democracy in a speech in Matanzas, Cuba.

January 14th 1970- Marches in Algiers and other Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian cities in protest of the way the African nations were represented in the French Union. One of the main concerns of the protesters was that the former colonies have the same representation as a district in France, even when they have larger populations than many of that so called districts. They accused the government in Europe of trying to set the balance on their favor.

perdedor99

November 29th, 2005, 08:35 PM

Middle East: 1964-1965

July 7th 1964- Combined British-Iraqi force defeat Iranian advance in the direction of Basra thanks to air superiority and sheer luck. Iranian forces got lost and stumbled into the marshes, making maneuvers very difficult for them.

July 16th 1964- With British air and land forces concentrated in the south, Iranian forces achieved air superiority over the Kurdish provinces and using armor and mechanized forces captured Kirkuk.

July 20th 1964- Ceasefire agreed between the parts to try to reach an understanding to end conflict.

July 23rd 1964- With Iraqi refusal to discuss the Iranian terms, combat resumes in the south and in the northern provinces.

July 28th 1964- Last Iranian forces in Basra province pushed out of Iraqi soil. British forces began to move north in the direction of Mosul.

August 3rd 1964- Mosul fell to Iranian forces. Reports of Soviet advisors in Iranian armored units corroborated by United States reporters in the city. Rab Butler announces Indian forces marked for deployment in South Africa will be send to Iraq.

August 4th 1964- Mustafa Barzani gave a speech in Mosul asking the world to recognize independence of Kurdistan. Both Iran and USSR disavowed this speech.

August 7th 1964- With rising unrest in their Kurdish areas, Turkey asks the NEA for help in controlling the situation in those areas.

August 10th 1964- The German 7th Division (Airborne) and the Central European 2nd Division (Airborne) arrive to eastern Turkey to help in diffusing the situation in that area.

August 12th 1964- With the seemingly deteriorating situation and with unrest in their Kurdish provinces, Iran agrees to a League of Nation brokered ceasefire.

August 22nd 1964- Mustafa Barzani after meeting with the Soviet Foreign Minister, agrees to the conditions been negotiated in Jerusalem.

October 5th 1964- Agreement reached in Jerusalem. An autonomous Kurdish government will exist but still part of the Iraqi nation. Iranian forces began pulling out of Iran while being replaced by the German 7th Division (Abn) serving as observers of the League of Nations to ensure both sides were complying with agreement.

November 29th 1964- With rising unrest in Syria, Prime Minister De Gaulle declares state of emergency in Syria and blames the Soviet Union for the growing problems in the Middle East.

April 19th 1965-German forces in Iraq replaced by League of Nations’ combined Infantry division composed of troops from Mexico, Romania and China.

July 17th 1965- An agreement is finally reached in the discussions between the Egyptian and British nations in regard to the Suez Canal. The Canal will be transferred to the Egyptian nation on the year 1980 with gradual transfer starting in 1968. Many viewed the agreement as a victory but nationalistic elements considered this agreement as surrender to the British and protests in Egyptian major cities began thru the summer and continued thru the fall.

August 13th 1965- King Faisal II of Iraq assassinated by a disgruntled veteran blaming the Royal family for the problems of the nation. Chaos ensues in the non-Kurdish area of the nation and British forces from Kuwait move in to try to keep order.

Wendell

December 1st, 2005, 02:40 AM

Is your Iraqi assassin one Saddam Hussein, perhaps?

Wendell

December 1st, 2005, 04:13 AM

What is Hitler's fate again here? Could this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Dream) be a reality in this TL?

Glen

December 1st, 2005, 08:59 AM

Is your Iraqi assassin one Saddam Hussein, perhaps?

He was born in 1937, so he would have been butterflied out...

Glen

December 1st, 2005, 09:01 AM

What is Hitler's fate again here? Could this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Dream) be a reality in this TL?

Committed suicide rather than allowing capture in 1936 after the German Reichswehr intervenes in the bloody Austrian Civil War.

Wendell

December 1st, 2005, 09:29 PM

Committed suicide rather than allowing capture in 1936 after the German Reichswehr intervenes in the bloody Austrian Civil War.
I had forgotten all about that.

Gladi

December 1st, 2005, 09:41 PM

Bright day
Great work!!! I have not been following this from start though :(, and man what did I miss!!!

So I hope you will be able to take little jab at you:)

Czech Germans gave up and integrated fully into Czechoslovak landscape by 1926 nyah:p. There was at least one German minister in the period 1926-1938 nyah:p.

Wendell

December 1st, 2005, 09:47 PM

He was born in 1937, so he would have been butterflied out...
Everyone after 1937 goes?:eek:

SteveW

December 2nd, 2005, 11:35 AM

In this period, I can see the Belgian language divide turning violent, and having an effect on Europe just as the Baader-Meinhof gang or the IRA did.

With a strong De Gaulle government (being after all a man who frequently supported Francophone separatists), there would be a high degree of confidence amongst the Walloons.

I suspect that with De Gaulle's backing, the Belgian government would have continued to refuse Flemish rights-after all, the Civil Code was only translated into Flemish in 1960. Such action would ratchet up the tension dramatically.

Thus in my opinion, the spectre of Flemish terrorism in this era could be a serious possibility. This would probably take its most extreme form in that of a bombing at a Liege railway station in the late 70s or early 80s, Liege being a powerbase for the pro-union Parti Socialiste.

Glen

December 2nd, 2005, 01:09 PM

Bright day
Great work!!! I have not been following this from start though :(, and man what did I miss!!!

Well, feel free to start adding events, just so long as they don't violate the continuity so far developed up to the 1950s.

So I hope you will be able to take little jab at you:)

As long as you can take a counter ;)

Czech Germans gave up and integrated fully into Czechoslovak landscape by 1926 nyah:p. There was at least one German minister in the period 1926-1938 nyah:p.

Not exactly. The Sudeten Germans are certainly not integrated by 1926. However, German-Czech relations have been steadily improving over the course of the 1920s under the Stresemann/Ebert years. In the 1930s, there is quite some discord, actually. However, the Germans pressure the Czechs into more inclusion of the Germans into the Czechoslovak nation. This coupled with the wreck of the Austrian Civil War, leads to their eventual increase involvement in the Czechoslovak government.

This was in no way an easy transition, but by the 1940s it was pretty well established that the Central European Republic was a tri-ethnic state, and was considered a 'Germanic' nation by the German Republic.

Glen

December 2nd, 2005, 01:11 PM

Everyone after 1937 goes?:eek:

Not exactly.

Everyone born after 1920 is butterflied away essentially!

That doesn't mean that for the first 25 years or so there won't be a lot of siblings running around with the same name. And some of those might have similar roles.

But yeah, that is why we should increasingly in the timeline not use names but just titles, or make some up...

Glen

December 2nd, 2005, 01:14 PM

In this period, I can see the Belgian language divide turning violent, and having an effect on Europe just as the Baader-Meinhof gang or the IRA did.

With a strong De Gaulle government (being after all a man who frequently supported Francophone separatists), there would be a high degree of confidence amongst the Walloons.

I suspect that with De Gaulle's backing, the Belgian government would have continued to refuse Flemish rights-after all, the Civil Code was only translated into Flemish in 1960. Such action would ratchet up the tension dramatically.

Interesting thoughts. Why didn't this happen IOTL, then?

Why don't you give us some event dates for the timeline?

Thus in my opinion, the spectre of Flemish terrorism in this era could be a serious possibility. This would probably take its most extreme form in that of a bombing at a Liege railway station in the late 70s or early 80s, Liege being a powerbase for the pro-union Parti Socialiste.[/QUOTE]

Give us some particular dated events, please!:D

Gladi

December 2nd, 2005, 02:36 PM

Not exactly. The Sudeten Germans are certainly not integrated by 1926. However, German-Czech relations have been steadily improving over the course of the 1920s under the Stresemann/Ebert years. In the 1930s, there is quite some discord, actually. However, the Germans pressure the Czechs into more inclusion of the Germans into the Czechoslovak nation. This coupled with the wreck of the Austrian Civil War, leads to their eventual increase involvement in the Czechoslovak government.

This was in no way an easy transition, but by the 1940s it was pretty well established that the Central European Republic was a tri-ethnic state, and was considered a 'Germanic' nation by the German Republic.

Bright day
I posted OTL events...

SteveW

December 2nd, 2005, 02:42 PM

The reason it did not happen in our lifetime is that the Belgian government gave in to protests about the University of Leuven (then French-speaking but in Flanders), marking the end of over 130 years of effective Francophone dominance. The acceptance IOTL of full Flemish rights prevented real violence-but had Belgium not federalised, a Flemish group on the scale of Quebec's FLQ could probably be expected. Indeed, the 70s and 80s did see some violence in the Voeren area.

(I'm not a Fleming by the way, I'm an Englishman)

So here are some potential dates for the timeline:

Monday 21st September 1981: after Prime Minister Eyskens refuses to call a referendum on effective Flemish independence, Flemish terrorists launch what becomes known as "Lundi sanglant" (Bloody Monday). Bombs go off across Wallonia, at Namur station (6 dead), Liege-Guillemins station (24 dead) and Mons station (14 dead).

Tuesday 22nd-Thursday 24th September: Widescale rioting across Francophone Brussels. One Flemish right-wing Volksunie MP beaten to death as he arrives at the Gare Centrale.

Saturday 26th September- Terrorists car-bomb the Charleroi office of the Parti Socialiste- leading member Guy Spitaels killed along with 8 others.

Sunday 27th September- A Walloon group bombs Bruges's Grote Markt. 9 Belgians, 12 American tourists, 3 Germans and a Spaniard die. Germany and America threaten to ask the League of Nations to bring in peacekeepers.

Thursday 1st October- The Eyskens government falls. New PM Dehaene, a Fleming himself, promises full Flemish autonomy but not independence. Street violence begins to subside.

Friday 16th October- Flemish terrorists, following the example of Breton terrorists some years earlier, launch a mortar attack on the Elysee in Paris- no casualties. They call for Flemish villages in Northern France to be ceded, but Mitterand refuses to accept this.

Wendell

December 2nd, 2005, 03:43 PM

Maybe France moves in to occupy Belgium?

SteveW

December 2nd, 2005, 04:15 PM

Maybe France moves in to occupy Belgium?

A very interesting idea. Potential to cause a significant diplomatic crisis? A French occupation could provoke not just Flemings but also some Walloon nationalists.

Glen

December 2nd, 2005, 04:33 PM

A very interesting idea. Potential to cause a significant diplomatic crisis? A French occupation could provoke not just Flemings but also some Walloon nationalists.

Might also meet with some concern in the NEA.

Undoubtably, though, this issue would go to the League and lead to League Peacekeepers replacing the French.

We could write something like this?

October 20, 1981 In response to the terrorist attack in Paris, French forces move into Belgium. Immediate protest from several NEA nations, and a mobilization of border troops in the Netherlands and Germany begins.

October 23, 1981 Emergency meeting of the League of Nations results in an agreement between the French and NEA nations for the French to gradually withdraw and be replaced by League peacekeepers from Switzerland and Canada by the end of the year.

December 30, 1981 Last French forces withdraw from Belgium, however the terrorist incidents that plagued the French over the past several months would be inherited by the Swiss and Canadian League forces.

Glen

December 2nd, 2005, 04:34 PM

Bright day
I posted OTL events...

Full integration of the Sudeten Germans as an OTL event? Is that right? Maybe so, though it seemed like there were a number of Pan-Germanists in the Sudetenland.

The German minister I can believe, but later ITTL this will be formalized to ensure German representation.

Gladi

December 2nd, 2005, 05:29 PM

Yup :). Yes the pan-german side increased as the Hitler raved on, but that happened later and then there still were many Germans who kept voting the original german parties.
In 1929 election the Germans parties got about 20-ish% (I only have graphical picture) of all votes. The biggest german parties: German Social Democrat Party, followed by By German People Christian Socialist Party and Union of Agrarians and Country ?minor bussinesman? (untranslateble term).
Protection of minorities was included in Czechoslovak constitution. The Czech Germans had represantives in parliament and counties. They had their own educational system from kindergarten up to universities (for example German University of Prague, Brno Technical College), their own theaters, radio stations, newspapers (Prager Tagblatt was among nation's leading), magazines, book publishing houses.

Glen

December 2nd, 2005, 05:41 PM

Yup :). Yes the pan-german side increased as the Hitler raved on, but that happened later and then there still were many Germans who kept voting the original german parties.

Right, here some come on board with Hitler ranting during the Austrian Civil War (1934-36) but then it settles down thereafter.

In 1929 election the Germans parties got about 20-ish% (I only have graphical picture) of all votes. The biggest german parties: German Social Democrat Party, followed by By German People Christian Socialist Party and Union of Agrarians and Country ?minor bussinesman? (untranslateble term).
Protection of minorities was included in Czechoslovak constitution. The Czech Germans had represantives in parliament and counties. They had their own educational system from kindergarten up to universities (for example German University of Prague, Brno Technical College), their own theaters, radio stations, newspapers (Prager Tagblatt was among nation's leading), magazines, book publishing houses.

So really, the events described in the timeline already are very similar to OTL prior to Hitler, is that what you are saying? Thats good...makes them more probable.

Gladi

December 2nd, 2005, 06:11 PM

So really, the events described in the timeline already are very similar to OTL prior to Hitler, is that what you are saying? Thats good...makes them more probable.

They look rather... redundant, I guess is the right word, as lot of what is signed in the ITTL Munich deal is already matter of fact, which now think of it could still serve as propaganda for German Germans. Jab retracted:).

SteveW

December 2nd, 2005, 07:00 PM

Might also meet with some concern in the NEA.

Undoubtably, though, this issue would go to the League and lead to League Peacekeepers replacing the French.

We could write something like this?

October 20, 1981 In response to the terrorist attack in Paris, French forces move into Belgium. Immediate protest from several NEA nations, and a mobilization of border troops in the Netherlands and Germany begins.

October 23, 1981 Emergency meeting of the League of Nations results in an agreement between the French and NEA nations for the French to gradually withdraw and be replaced by League peacekeepers from Switzerland and Canada by the end of the year.

December 30, 1981 Last French forces withdraw from Belgium, however the terrorist incidents that plagued the French over the past several months would be inherited by the Swiss and Canadian League forces.

Sounds very good to me. Potentially also talks between Belgium, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Britain on how to resolve the issue?

Wendell

December 2nd, 2005, 09:10 PM

Glen

December 2nd, 2005, 10:24 PM

So much for a very late World War II:(

I think it unlikely...but feel free to start another spin-off timeline thread...we do them all the time, after all ;)

Wendell

December 4th, 2005, 02:10 AM

I think it unlikely...but feel free to start another spin-off timeline thread...we do them all the time, after all ;)
It wouldn't be a world war anyway. It would be a "Hey, let's pounce on France" war.

perdedor99

December 8th, 2005, 11:16 PM

South Africa 1962- 1965

May 31st 1962- First registered combat between Indian and Rhodesian forces in Nyasiland. Rhodesian forces routed due to less numbers and lack of supplies.

June 4th 1962- Task Force Desert Rat, anchored by the 7th Armored Brigade, began driving in the direction of Windhoek. Resistance was minimal due to complete air superiority in the area.

June 7th 1962- British government announces a blockade of the South African coast. Raw materials and equipment continued to reach South Africa thru Mozambique.

June 19th 1962- Windhoek captured by Task Force Desert Rat. Northern and central South West Africa abandoned by South Africans with hardly any fighting.

June 29th 1962- Battle of Auob River. First major engagement of the war. British 7th Armored Brigade ambushed by a South African Citizen Force task force in South West Africa supported by 10 Centurion tanks. All South African tanks destroyed but British advance south stopped.

July 8th 1962- Anchored by the Rhodesian Light Rifles regiment, a joint Rhodesian- South African task force invades Botswana. South Africans leaders recognized that with British control of South West Africa, Botswana was a dagger aimed at their lines of communication with Rhodesia and needed to be neutralized.

July 28th to Aug 1st 1962- Task Force Maple Leaf, anchored around the CEF, landed north of Cape Town while Task Force Lowlands, anchored the 52nd Infantry Division, landed east of the city. After short fighting near the approaches of the city South African commander in area agrees to ceasefire and pull out of the city to save civilians lives after destroying the port facilities.

Aug 4th to Aug 12th 1962- Battle of Durban. Task force Wombat, the Anzac expeditionary force, landed in the outskirts of Durban on the 4th and after 8 days of heavy casualties to both sides captured the city of Durban. TV pictures of the wounded being flown by helicopter to the hospital ships and the naval bombardment of the city by the supporting Royal Navy battleships made world’s newscasts.

Aug 14th 1962- The commander of the Task force Bangalore, Field Marshall R. M. Singh declares Nyasiland secured. Task force Bangalore, composed of three Indian divisions supported by the King African Rifles, began advancing into Northern Rhodesia with increased resistance being found.

Aug 19th 1962- British government offers terms to the South African and Rhodesian governments to end hostilities. Terms rejected by both the South African and Rhodesian leaders.

Aug 27th 1962- Commonwealth forces began buildup of their troops on the area to continue operations to the interior. While expansion of the beachheads in Durban and the Cape continued at a slow deliberate pace, British military leaders decided against launching any major offensive operations until the arrival of overwhelming forces. By the end of November three British divisions have arrived to South West Africa, four British to the Cape Town area with the 1st Armored included, six Indian divisions to the Durban area plus three more Indian divisions to the Northern Rhodesia area. Also massive influx of RAF, RAAF and RIAF units arrived to the theater.

Aug 28th 1962- South Africa and the Soviet Union complete a secret agreement for the shipment of weapons in exchange of gold. Weapons began to be received by the South African forces thru Mozambique’s ports by the end of October. While the majority of the weapons received where antitank portable missiles, also around 60 T-58 tanks arrived by the end of October disguised as “farm machinery”.

September 11th 1962- Indian Prime Minister Hatta, British Prime Minister Rab Butler and other Commonwealth leaders meet in London to discuss how to continue prosecution of the campaign and how to administer the area after all its over.

Wendell

December 9th, 2005, 01:21 AM

Botswana was not yet independent, and I think was called Bechuanaland still in 1962.

Glen

December 14th, 2005, 07:57 PM

BTW, this isn't dead, just on hiatus due to the ALT start-up and the holidays and grant writing. Probably come back to it at the beginning of the year, though if people who do have time want to add suggested events, feel free to post them for consideration. We'll sort it out later...

perdedor99

December 22nd, 2005, 09:20 PM

The Turbulent Seventies:

May 18th 1970- Governor Joseph Seymour (1) of Mississippi gave his famous speech in favor of segregation. “Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.”

September 11th 1970- President Kennedy signed the Civil Rights legislation bill (2). Protests in some major cities on the Southern states as a result.

May 1st 1971- Protests rocket the French Union, organized by the Socialist Party and workers’ unions. Asking for equal pay between metropolitan French and citizens of the Union; the protests were peaceful overall but in some places, especially the Arab parts of the Union, riots erupted.

October 14th 1971-British Prime Minister Edmund Powell (3) stated that “the Irish question need to be resolved,” as a response to the terrible bloodshed of the last couple of weeks in Northern Ireland.

November 29th 1971- Yuri Andropov elected Soviet leader in response of what many considered the failure of the Khrushchev years. The new hardliner leader promised the “Soviet Union will last as long as their citizens are willing to make sacrifices and the enemies of the Rodina will be eventually crushed.” In later years many viewed this as an attempt to divert the Soviet citizens’ attention way from internal affairs to minimize the problems that existed in the Soviet Union at the time.

June 5th 1972- National guardsmen called to help enforce some of the Civil Rights initiatives on the Southern states. The sight of armed troops patrolling some of the cities in the South was considered by many political analysts as one of the reasons of the defeat of Kennedy in the 1972 elections.

August 9th 1972- Italy ask the League of Nations to order a plebiscite to be held in Sardinia as a response to a poll taken in 1970 that stated that more than 69% of the population considered themselves Italians and wished to have some kind of political ties to their mother country. France refused outright, stating they acquired the area as per the treaty that ended the Tunisian War over 25 years before and no political changes were on the near future. The League stated they would investigate further into the case.

January 21st 1973- President Reagan on his inaugural speech dashed the hopes of the segregationist with a defense of the Blacks’ rights and an assurance that the Civil rights initiatives started by President Kennedy will be continued under his administration. He stated “We can’t be the standard of freedom against the evils of totalitarian regimes until our house’s defects are mended. We can’t be the beacon of liberty for this World until all our citizens enjoy the same rights and benefits, without distinction or separation.”

April 18th 1973- Start of the “Krakow Spring.” The city major, Anton Woreslaw, declares that change was needed if Poland was going to survive and asked for democratic elections.

June 9th 1973- “Krakow Spring” ends with the arrest of Woreslaw and the crushing of the pro-democracy movement in his city. While Woreslaw died while in prison in 1975 while awaiting trial for treason, he was turned into a martyr by the pro-democracy movement in Poland at the time and his memory is revered in modern Poland.

September 14th 1973- Border clashes between Chinese and Manchurian soldiers escalated into a battle with hundred of casualties on both sides. Start of the so-called “Manchurian Crisis” that almost ended in a nuclear exchange between the Soviet Union and the PACPA in early 1974.

January 8th 1974- Yuseef Katani swears as first Shiite president of the Republic of Iraq, following the Sunni Ali Arwan after his six-year term was over. The transition was peaceful, another example that the 1967 accord brokered by the League of Nations to end the “Iraqi Troubles” was holding on.

March 29th 1974- League of Nations ask both the Soviet block nations and the PACPA nations to back down and accept a League of Nation’s mediation to end the border disputes between Manchuria and China. Small clashes since September culminated in a major battle in early March with thousands of casualties to both sides. Records unclassified in the early 21st Century proved the Japanese Empire was ready to deploy nuclear weapons in support of the Chinese if the situation has turned worse to the Chinese. With the known Soviet policy of retaliation in kind many expects now agree the World was very close to a nuclear conflict during the spring of 1974.

July 17th 1974- The German band “Sealion” ended their farewell tour with a sold concert in Yankee Stadium in New York City. The band, one of most popular groups of all time, decided to break up after their lead singer, Johan Lennowitz, converted to Buddhism and decided to follow a solo career under the auspices of his wife the Japanese artists Keiko Onawa. Attempts by other members of the group, especially bassist Georg Horst and the Alsatian born guitarist Paul Mecarde, to change Lennowitz mind and all members decided to part ways after one final tour.

South American War 1962

October 28th 1961- Joint Bolivian-Argentinean offensive pushed the Chilenians close the original border but offensive need to be ended by the end of November due to Peruvian decision to help the Chilenians launching an offensive of their own on November 15th and Argentina shifting forces to help Uruguay repel the Brazilian invasion.

November 21st 1961- Brazil invades Uruguay. Brazilian High Command shocked by the Uruguayan prepared positions, their well equip forces and the ferocity of their resistance. Their advance was negligible and their casualties heavy.

December 15th 1961- Brazilian advance into Uruguay stopped by the arrival of Argentinean forces to the theater. A slow grinding process will be started to push Brazilians out of Uruguayan territory that would take all summer.

January 8th 1962- Chilenians start a summer offensive after their materials losses been replaced by US aid.

March 21st 1962- Chilenians end offensive due to exhaustion. While they recovered the territory lost during the enemy attack of October and November the war was not even close to be over.

March 26th 1962- Peruvians end their offensive due to exhaustion. Casualties in both the Peruvian and Chilenians offensives were very heavy for both sides involved and a diplomatic solution was being searched by all sides to end the conflict.

April 29th 1962- Brazil agrees to Montevideo Accord. They will pull out of the remaining Uruguayan territory under their control plus they would pay reparations for the losses incurred to Uruguay in exchange of a five-mile demilitarized zone inside Uruguayan territory and no further claims against Brazil would be made in the future.

May 7th 1962- Us President secretly pledge US ground troops to the Andean Alliance to try to end conflict. The only US Airborne Division, the 6th Infantry, and the 1st Infantry Division activated for deployment overseas. (4)

May 28th 1962- Meetings between warring factions ended in Caracas without any agreement being reached. League of Nations offers to mediate the conflict but the Andean Alliance refuses, counting with the US support to resolve the conflict.

November 4th 1962- Massive and surprise air offensive launched by combined US-Andean Alliance air assets. By the end of the week they had complete control of the air over Bolivia.

November 13th 1962- In the first combat airdrop since the Tunisian War the US 6th airborne division is dropped behind the main front to capture the passes leading to the front. They effectively cutoff close to 40% of the combined manpower of Bolivia and Argentina in the theater.

November 15th 1962- Andean Alliance started. While starting slowly by the 17th the Bolivian-Argentinean forces recognized their predicament and began to withdraw in an attempt to force the passes open in their attempt to escape the encirclement.

November 18th 1962- Brazil rejoins the war and invades northeastern Bolivia. Many experts consider this event the reason the Argentines asked for a cease-fire three days later.

November 21st 1962- Argentina asked for a cease-fire. Very lenient terms offered to end hostilities.

November 22nd 1962- Argentina accepts terms. With their economy in shambles after over two years of war and with the far right opposing Peron due to his help to the Communists in Uruguay it was enough for the Argentinean government. Argentinean troops ordered to stay in place and not to engage advancing forces.

November 24th 1962- Santa Cruz falls to Brazilian forces. The Bolivian leaders escape to Argentina and the new provisional government ask for terms of surrender. Date considered end of war.

(1) IMO is very probable George Wallace gets butterflied away in this TL. Still his speech was a very passionate one in the name of an idiotic idea and is possible someone come up with something similar in this TL.

(2) IMO Civil Rights will be slowed down with no Vietnam War. Of course ITTL we have the low level Cuban War, with Marines and Air Corps personnel fighting from 1958 to 196?, so who knows? Maybe is the other way around. Also Kennedy could be Joe Jr., Jack or Bobby. Take your picks.

(3) Same principle as one. No analogue in OTL.

(4) IMO with no WW2 the US Army is still the poor kid of the US military, with the Navy, the Marines and the Air Corps getting the lion share of the budget. Maybe 10 total divisions infantry divisions, one of them in Hawaii plus an independent infantry brigade in Panama, and one armored one. Also their tank designs are behind the German and Soviet ones.

Wendell

December 23rd, 2005, 06:33 AM

But the Air Corps. was part of the Army, and likely would have shared in its suffering.

Glen

December 31st, 2005, 04:17 PM

Really good stuff, Pedro. I'll have to get to editing with the new year.

Anyone else have items for the timeline?

perdedor99

January 1st, 2006, 06:17 PM

Trying to make it easier to follow. Not official yet and somethings could change.

Middle East 1957- 1965

August 17th 1957- Mustafa Barzani speech in Mosul asks for independence for the Kurdish community in Iraq to the ruling Hashemite dynasty. This date is considered the beginning of the Kurdish War of independence. Both Iran and the USSR supported this rebel group.

April 15th 1958- 110 dead in terrorist bombing in downtown Baghdad. British High Commissioner and King Faisal II both declare state of emergency in the Kingdom.

April 17th 1958- High-level guerilla activity began operations in the mountains of northern Iraq. King Faisal II orders armed forces to stomp rebels.

October 4th 1958- summer campaign versus guerillas in Northern Iraq ended in an inconclusive manner. King Faisal II asks British government for help.

October 8th 1958- British Prime Minister McMillan pledge help to the Iraqi Kingdom in the form of weapons and advisors.

April 17th 1960- Kurdish War enters its second year. No end in sight. British pledge combat troops to try to end the impasse. First corroborated proof of Iranian “volunteers” fighting with rebels.

November 28th 1960- First British land forces enter combat in Iraq. The so-called “Christmas Gift” offensive that lasted until January 16th caused massive casualties to the rebels and effectively ended high tempo operations by them but still low-level activity continued.

February 18th 1961- Terrorist bombing to the British barracks of the Sherwood Foresters in Mosul killed 47 troopers and wounded 122. This date considered the beginning of the second phase of the wars. This phase turned into an urban terrorist campaign due to the superior performance of British troops on the field of battle reduced guerilla activity during this time.

June 14th 1961- Conflict expands into Syria. First reported terrorist attacks in Northern Syria.

August 13th 1961- Protest in Port Said calling for the British withdraw from the Suez Canal area broken up by British military police. 12 dead in the confrontation and while publicly the Egyptian government supported the British action; negotiations began in Geneva to end the British presence in the area.

November 13th 1961- First round of negotiations between the British and Egyptian government ended in an impasse. While both sides agreed to a gradual devolution of the area to Egypt, the British plan (return to Egypt in phases with a final handover in 2000) was seem by the Egyptian representatives as too extreme.

March 7th 1963- with the continued deterioration of the condition in South Africa, British Prime Minister Rab Butler announces British forces will abandon Iraq for service in South Africa. It was announced a small ground reaction force was going to be kept in Kuwait and some air support squadrons were going to stay in service in Iraq.

November 3rd 1963- Last British ground forces in Iraq cross the border into Kuwait. This date considered being the beginning of the third stage of the Arab conflicts.

March 13th 1964- Iraq accuses Iran of funding and arming guerrillas in Kurdistan. Iran denies the charges and orders a mobilization of their armed forces in response.

April 7th 1964- Third round of negotiations between Egypt and Great Britain ended in another impasse due to the Egyptian refusal to accept a 20-year phased handover.

May 4th 1964- Iranian troops cross the border into Iraq near Basra and in the northern provinces. Start of the Iraq-Iran War.

July 7th 1964- Combined British-Iraqi force defeat Iranian advance in the direction of Basra thanks to air superiority and sheer luck. Iranian forces got lost and stumbled into the marshes, making maneuvers very difficult for them.

July 16th 1964- With British air and land forces concentrated in the south, Iranian forces achieved air superiority over the Kurdish provinces and using armor and mechanized forces captured Kirkuk.

July 20th 1964- Ceasefire agreed between the parts to try to reach an understanding to end conflict.

July 23rd 1964- With Iraqi refusal to discuss the Iranian terms, combat resumes in the south and in the northern provinces.

July 28th 1964- Last Iranian forces in Basra province pushed out of Iraqi soil. British forces began to move north in the direction of Mosul.

August 3rd 1964- Mosul fell to Iranian forces. Reports of Soviet advisors in Iranian armored units corroborated by United States reporters in the city. Rab Butler announces Indian forces marked for deployment in South Africa will be send to Iraq.

August 4th 1964- Mustafa Barzani gave a speech in Mosul asking the world to recognize independence of Kurdistan. Both Iran and USSR disavowed this speech.

August 7th 1964- With rising unrest in their Kurdish areas, Turkey asks the NEA for help in controlling the situation in those areas.

August 10th 1964- The German 7th Division (Airborne) and the Central European 2nd Division (Airborne) arrive to eastern Turkey to help in diffusing the situation in that area.

August 12th 1964- With the seemingly deteriorating situation and with unrest in their Kurdish provinces, Iran agrees to a League of Nation brokered ceasefire.

August 22nd 1964- Mustafa Barzani after meeting with the Soviet Foreign Minister, agrees to the conditions been negotiated in Jerusalem.

October 5th 1964- Agreement reached in Jerusalem. An autonomous Kurdish government will exist but still part of the Iraqi nation. Iranian forces began pulling out of Iraq while being replaced by the German 7th Division (Abn) serving as observers of the League of Nations to ensure both sides were complying with agreement.

November 29th 1964- With rising unrest in Syria, Prime Minister De Gaulle declares state of emergency in Syria and blames the Soviet Union for the growing problems in the Middle East.

April 19th 1965-German forces in Iraq replaced by League of Nations’ combined Infantry division composed of troops from Mexico, Romania and China.

July 17th 1965- An agreement is finally reached in the discussions between the Egyptian and British nations in regard to the Suez Canal. The Canal will be transferred to the Egyptian nation on the year 1980 with gradual transfer starting in 1968. Many viewed the agreement as a victory but nationalistic elements considered this agreement as surrender to the British and protests in Egyptian major cities began thru the summer and continued thru the fall.

August 13th 1965- King Faisal II of Iraq assassinated by a disgruntled veteran blaming the Royal family for the problems of the nation. Chaos ensues in the non-Kurdish area of the nation and British forces from Kuwait move in to try to keep order.

perdedor99

January 1st, 2006, 06:20 PM

Same as above. Not official yet.

South Africa: 1961-1962

October 13th 1961- British Commonwealth sanctioned South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia due to their policy of apartheid.

February 3rd 1962- After months of negotiation ending in failure, South Africa abandoned the Commonwealth and declared independence.

February 17th 1962- Federation of Rhodesia followed the South African example and declared independence from the Commonwealth.

March 19th 1962- Great Britain declares the actions of South Africa and Rhodesia to be illegal and to rescind their declarations of independence.

March 21st 1962- South Africa and Federation of Rhodesia present their case to the League of Nations in Geneva.

March 27th 1962- British Prime Minister Rab Butler declares the actions of South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia as illegal and null. Ask the Commonwealth members for support on a police action to remove the now considered illegal governments in those nations. While public reaction is mixed in Canada and Australia-New Zealand, he receives a lot of support in favor of this action in the African colonies and the Indian Federation.

April 2nd 1962- South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia mobilizes their Citizen Force, expecting action by the Commonwealth against them.

April 6th 1962- Northern Rhodesia and Nysaliland announced their intention of staying in the Commonwealth. Rhodesian security forces began fighting with pro-Commonwealth factions in those areas. Considered the date the South African War started.

April 8th 1962- Canada pledge a Canadian Expeditionary Force composed of elements equal to a division plus support elements attached. This force was ready for deployment by the middle of May 1962.

April 9th 1962- Australia and New Zealand announced a combined ANZAC force equivalent to two infantry divisions and support units were going to be ready for deployment by the middle of May 1962.

April 10th 1962- Indian Federation’s Prime Minister Hatta pledges, “The whole might of the Indian Armed forces is at the disposition of the Commonwealth to eliminate the scourge apartheid is to the Indians living in South Africa.” No mention was made of the effects of that institution on the African natives.

May 6th 1962- Task Force Albacore, anchored around the 41st Commando Brigade, captures Walvis Bay after 24 hours of heavy fighting. With the capture of the area a forward deployment base began to be build to receive further reinforcements to end the bid of South African independence.

May 8th 1962- First Indian forces began arriving to Tanganika to be marshaled for the move south.

May 31st 1962- First registered combat between Indian and Rhodesian forces in Nyasiland. Rhodesian forces routed due to less numbers and lack of supplies.

June 4th 1962- Task Force Desert Rat, anchored by the 7th Armored Brigade, began driving in the direction of Windhoek. Resistance was minimal due to complete air superiority in the area.

June 7th 1962- British government announces a blockade of the South African coast. Raw materials and equipment continued to reach South Africa thru Mozambique.

June 19th 1962- Windhoek captured by Task Force Desert Rat. Northern and central South West Africa abandoned by South Africans with hardly any fighting.

June 29th 1962- Battle of Auob River. First major engagement of the war. British 7th Armored Brigade ambushed by a South African Citizen Force task force in South West Africa supported by 10 Centurion tanks. All South African tanks destroyed but British advance south stopped.

July 8th 1962- Anchored by the Rhodesian Light Rifles regiment, a joint Rhodesian- South African task force invades Botswana. South Africans leaders recognized that with British control of South West Africa, Botswana was a dagger aimed at their lines of communication with Rhodesia and needed to be neutralized.

July 28th to Aug 1st 1962- Task Force Maple Leaf, anchored around the CEF, landed north of Cape Town while Task Force Lowlands, anchored the 52nd Infantry Division, landed east of the city. After short fighting near the approaches of the city South African commander in area agrees to ceasefire and pull out of the city to save civilians lives after destroying the port facilities.

Aug 4th to Aug 12th 1962- Battle of Durban. Task force Wombat, the Anzac expeditionary force, landed in the outskirts of Durban on the 4th and after 8 days of heavy casualties to both sides captured the city of Durban. TV pictures of the wounded being flown by helicopter to the hospital ships and the naval bombardment of the city by the supporting Royal Navy battleships made world’s newscasts.

Aug 14th 1962- The commander of the Task force Bangalore, Field Marshall R. M. Singh declares Nyasiland secured. Task force Bangalore, composed of three Indian divisions supported by the King African Rifles, began advancing into Northern Rhodesia with increased resistance being found.

Aug 19th 1962- British government offers terms to the South African and Rhodesian governments to end hostilities. Terms rejected by both the South African and Rhodesian leaders.

Aug 27th 1962- Commonwealth forces began buildup of their troops on the area to continue operations to the interior. While expansion of the beachheads in Durban and the Cape continued at a slow deliberate pace, British military leaders decided against launching any major offensive operations until the arrival of overwhelming forces. By the end of November three British divisions have arrived to South West Africa, four British to the Cape Town area with the 1st Armored included, six Indian divisions to the Durban area plus three more Indian divisions to the Northern Rhodesia area. Also massive influx of RAF, RAAF and RIAF units arrived to the theater.

Aug 28th 1962- South Africa and the Soviet Union complete a secret agreement for the shipment of weapons in exchange of gold. Weapons began to be received by the South African forces thru Mozambique’s ports by the end of October. While the majority of the weapons received where antitank portable missiles, also around 60 T-58 tanks arrived by the end of October disguised as “farm machinery”.

September 11th 1962- Indian Prime Minister Hatta, British Prime Minister Rab Butler and other Commonwealth leaders meet in London to discuss how to continue prosecution of the campaign and how to administer the area after all its over.

perdedor99

January 1st, 2006, 06:23 PM

Same as above. Just tidbits from the 50's to the 80's. Not official yet.

February 17th 1954- Loose coalition of Kaganovich, Molotov, Khrushchev and Zhukov participated in a succesful palace coup againsts Beria and Malenkov. Beria is killed and Manlenkov dismissed. End of Jewish persecution in the USSR.

March 13th 1955- Lazar Kaganovich and Vladimir Molotov replaced as leader of the Soviet Union and Foreign Minister in that order. The pro-reform minded Khrushchev and Zhukov ousted the two staunch stalinist members and began secret reforms to the Soviet institutions.

March 16th 1958- Charles de Gaulle, hero of the Tunisian War, elected Prime Minister of France.

August 13th 1958- American Marines landed in Cuba to help in squelching rebellion in the Santiago and Oriente provinces. President Stevenson declared "the United States will not let a nation so close to our borders be destabilized by criminals and outlaws. We will stand by General Batista to the end." But privately the US asked Batista to retire while a more reform minded leader could be found to be put in charge of the Cuban nation.

September 19th 1960- Francisco Franco steps down as ruler of Spain and names young Prince Juan Carlos Borbon as his successor. He inmediatly went into exile to Argentina.

September 27th 1960- France recognizes the new Spanish government as the legitimate representative of that nation and stops their covert support to guerillas in that country.

May 24th 1961- Khrushchev first Soviet leader to visit the West, landing in Berlin on this date to meet with the German president.

August 13, 1961 Bishop Karol Józef Wojtyła is martyred along with two others when Polish police open fire on an 'illegal' protest march against Polish eugenics and anti-semitic laws. Bishop Wojtyła would eventually be canonized as one of the first Polish saints in many years.

October 15th 1961- Los Angeles Dodgers outfielder Willie Mays wins the National League MVP after leading the Dodgers to the World Series. The Dodgers lost the series but thanks to the 321 AVG, 52 Hrs and 132 RBIs by Mays they won the National League pennant by 7 games over the Cardinals.

September 14th 1964- Dutch Indies achieves independence on this date and change the name to Republic of Indonesia.

September 8th 1966- Bulgaria admitted into the NEA after German recommendation in favor of their membership.

September 27th 1967- New York Yankees outfielder Lou Brock breaks the record of stolen bases in a season, ending the season with 115 stolen bases. Brock, acquired by the Yankees after the 1965 season from the Cubs, “has changed the Yankees from a power ball to a small ball club” according to his manager Yogi Berra.

November 17th 1969- On the seventh anniversary of the resignation of President Batista, Cuban Foreign Minister Frank Pais acknowledged the help United States gave his nation to achieve the status of a stable democracy in a speech in Matanzas, Cuba.

January 14th 1970- Marches in Algiers and other Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian cities in protest of the way the African nations were represented in the French Union. One of the main concerns of the protesters was that the former colonies have the same representation as a district in France, even when they have larger populations than many of that so called districts. They accused the government in Europe of trying to set the balance on their favor.

May 18th 1970- Governor Joseph Seymour of Mississippi gave his famous speech in favor of segregation. “Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.”

September 11th 1970- President Kennedy signed the Civil Rights legislation bill . Protests in some major cities on the Southern states as a result.

May 1st 1971- Protests rocket the French Union, organized by the Socialist Party and workers’ unions. Asking for equal pay between metropolitan French and citizens of the Union; the protests were peaceful overall but in some places, especially the Arab parts of the Union, riots erupted.

October 14th 1971-British Prime Minister Edmund Powell stated that “the Irish question need to be resolved,” as a response to the terrible bloodshed of the last couple of weeks in Northern Ireland.

November 29th 1971- Yuri Andropov elected Soviet leader in response of what many considered the failure of the Khrushchev years. The new hardliner leader promised the “Soviet Union will last as long as their citizens are willing to make sacrifices and the enemies of the Rodina will be eventually crushed.” In later years many viewed this as an attempt to divert the Soviet citizens’ attention way from internal affairs to minimize the problems that existed in the Soviet Union at the time.

June 5th 1972- National guardsmen called to help enforce some of the Civil Rights initiatives on the Southern states. The sight of armed troops patrolling some of the cities in the South was considered by many political analysts as one of the reasons of the defeat of Kennedy in the 1972 elections.

August 9th 1972- Italy ask the League of Nations to order a plebiscite to be held in Sardinia as a response to a poll taken in 1970 that stated that more than 69% of the population considered themselves Italians and wished to have some kind of political ties to their mother country. France refused outright, stating they acquired the area as per the treaty that ended the Tunisian War over 25 years before and no political changes were on the near future. The League stated they would investigate further into the case.

January 21st 1973- President Reagan on his inaugural speech dashed the hopes of the segregationist with a defense of the Blacks’ rights and an assurance that the Civil rights initiatives started by President Kennedy will be continued under his administration. He stated “We can’t be the standard of freedom against the evils of totalitarian regimes until our house’s defects are mended. We can’t be the beacon of liberty for this World until all our citizens enjoy the same rights and benefits, without distinction or separation.”

April 18th 1973- Start of the “Krakow Spring.” The city major, Anton Woreslaw, declares that change was needed if Poland was going to survive and asked for democratic elections.

June 9th 1973- “Krakow Spring” ends with the arrest of Woreslaw and the crushing of the pro-democracy movement in his city. While Woreslaw died while in prison in 1975 while awaiting trial for treason, he was turned into a martyr by the pro-democracy movement in Poland at the time and his memory is revered in modern Poland.

September 14th 1973- Border clashes between Chinese and Manchurian soldiers escalated into a battle with hundred of casualties on both sides. Start of the so-called “Manchurian Crisis” that almost ended in a nuclear exchange between the Soviet Union and the PACPA in early 1974.

January 8th 1974- Yuseef Katani swears as first Shiite president of the Republic of Iraq, following the Sunni Ali Arwan after his six-year term was over. The transition was peaceful, another example that the 1967 accord brokered by the League of Nations to end the “Iraqi Troubles” was holding on.

March 29th 1974- League of Nations ask both the Soviet block nations and the PACPA nations to back down and accept a League of Nation’s mediation to end the border disputes between Manchuria and China. Small clashes since September culminated in a major battle in early March with thousands of casualties to both sides. Records unclassified in the early 21st Century proved the Japanese Empire was ready to deploy nuclear weapons in support of the Chinese if the situation has turned worse to the Chinese. With the known Soviet policy of retaliation in kind many expects now agree the World was very close to a nuclear conflict during the spring of 1974.

July 17th 1974- The German band “Sealion” ended their farewell tour with a sold concert in Yankee Stadium in New York City. The band, one of most popular groups of all time, decided to break up after their lead singer, Johan Lennowitz, converted to Buddhism and decided to follow a solo career under the auspices of his wife the Japanese artists Keiko Onawa. Attempts by other members of the group, especially bassist Georg Horst and the Alsatian born guitarist Paul Mecarde, to change Lennowitz mind about leaving the band failed and all members decided to part ways after one final tour.

October 17th 1976- Indonesia is accepted as a member of the PACPA.

July 12th 1977- Kingdom of Vietnam accepted as member of PACPA.

Monday 21st September 1981: after Prime Minister Eyskens refuses to call a referendum on effective Flemish independence, Flemish terrorists launch what becomes known as "Lundi sanglant" (Bloody Monday). Bombs go off across Wallonia, at Namur station (6 dead), Liege-Guillemins station (24 dead) and Mons station (14 dead).

Tuesday 22nd-Thursday 24th September: Widescale rioting across Francophone Brussels. One Flemish right-wing Volksunie MP beaten to death as he arrives at the Gare Centrale.

Saturday 26th September- Terrorists car-bomb the Charleroi office of the Parti Socialiste- leading member Guy Spitaels killed along with 8 others.

Sunday 27th September- A Walloon group bombs Bruges's Grote Markt. 9 Belgians, 12 American tourists, 3 Germans and a Spaniard die. Germany and America threaten to ask the League of Nations to bring in peacekeepers.

Thursday 1st October- The Eyskens government falls. New PM Dehaene, a Fleming himself, promises full Flemish autonomy but not independence. Street violence begins to subside.

Friday 16th October- Flemish terrorists, following the example of Breton terrorists some years earlier, launch a mortar attack on the Elysee in Paris- no casualties. They call for Flemish villages in Northern France to be ceded, but Mitterand refuses to accept this.

October 20, 1981 In response to the terrorist attack in Paris, French forces move into Belgium. Immediate protest from several NEA nations, and a mobilization of border troops in the Netherlands and Germany begins.

October 23, 1981 Emergency meeting of the League of Nations results in an agreement between the French and NEA nations for the French to gradually withdraw and be replaced by League peacekeepers from Switzerland and Canada by the end of the year.

December 30, 1981 Last French forces withdraw from Belgium, however the terrorist incidents that plagued the French over the past several months would be inherited by the Swiss and Canadian League forces.

September 7th 1986- Belgium gave independence to the Congo after a process of Africanization that lasted 40 years.

perdedor99

January 1st, 2006, 06:25 PM

Same as above. Events leading to Bolivian War. Not official yet.

May 17th 1952- With the unlikely support of the Peronist in Argentina and the Uruguayan Communist, the Movimiento Nacionalista Revolucionario (or MNR) took power in Bolivia and began a process of nationalization of the mines, agrarian reform and the division of the large estates to be distributed to the peasants.

August 11th 1960-With an ongoing two years guerilla war in the Andes seemingly without end, the Bolivian government accepts the Argentinian offer of troops to help in defeating the rebels and finalizes an arm purchase with the USSR. Uruguayan and Soviet technicians also arrived to help the Bolivians train in their new equipment.

January 3rd 1961-The Bolivian War starts with the advance of Chilenian forces in the direction of Sucre while Peruvian forces began their advance in the direction of La Paz. The Bolivians and their allies were surprised by the Andean Pact response to their suppression of the right wing guerillas.

April 14th 1961- La Paz falls to Peruvian forces. But with the weather deterioration due to the coming fall the fronts stabilized until the Spring.

October 28th 1961- Joint Bolivian-Argentinean offensive pushed the Chilenians close the original border but offensive need to be ended by the end of November due to Peruvian decision to help the Chilenians launching an offensive of their own on November 15th and Argentina shifting forces to help Uruguay repel the Brazilian invasion.

November 21st 1961- Brazil invades Uruguay. Brazilian High Command shocked by the Uruguayan prepared positions, their well equip forces and the ferocity of their resistance. Their advance was negligible and their casualties heavy.

December 15th 1961- Brazilian advance into Uruguay stopped by the arrival of Argentinean forces to the theater. A slow grinding process will be started to push Brazilians out of Uruguayan territory that would take all summer.

January 8th 1962- Chilenians start a summer offensive after their materials losses been replaced by US aid.

March 21st 1962- Chilenians end offensive due to exhaustion. While they recovered the territory lost during the enemy attack of October and November the war was not even close to be over.

March 26th 1962- Peruvians end their offensive due to exhaustion. Casualties in both the Peruvian and Chilenians offensives were very heavy for both sides involved and a diplomatic solution was being searched by all sides to end the conflict.

April 29th 1962- Brazil agrees to Montevideo Accord. They will pull out of the remaining Uruguayan territory under their control plus they would pay reparations for the losses incurred to Uruguay in exchange of a five-mile demilitarized zone inside Uruguayan territory and no further claims against Brazil would be made in the future.

May 7th 1962- Us President secretly pledge US ground troops to the Andean Alliance to try to end conflict. The only US Airborne Division, the 6th Infantry, and the 1st Infantry Division activated for deployment overseas.

May 28th 1962- Meetings between warring factions ended in Caracas without any agreement being reached. League of Nations offers to mediate the conflict but the Andean Alliance refuses, counting with the US support to resolve the conflict.

November 4th 1962- Massive and surprise air offensive launched by combined US-Andean Alliance air assets. By the end of the week they had complete control of the air over Bolivia.

November 13th 1962- In the first combat airdrop since the Tunisian War the US 6th airborne division is dropped behind the main front to capture the passes leading to the front. They effectively cutoff close to 40% of the combined manpower of Bolivia and Argentina in the theater.

November 15th 1962- Andean Alliance started their final offensive. While starting slowly by the 17th the Bolivian-Argentinean forces recognized their predicament and began to withdraw in an attempt to force the passes open in their attempt to escape the encirclement.

November 18th 1962- Brazil rejoins the war and invades northeastern Bolivia. Many experts consider this event the reason the Argentines asked for a cease-fire three days later.

November 21st 1962- Argentina asked for a cease-fire. Very lenient terms offered to end hostilities.

November 22nd 1962- Argentina accepts terms. With their economy in shambles after close to two years of war and with the far right opposing Peron due to his help to the Communists in Uruguay it was enough for the Argentinean government. Argentinean troops ordered to stay in place and not to engage advancing forces.

November 24th 1962- Santa Cruz falls to Brazilian forces. The Bolivian leaders escape to Argentina and the new provisional government ask for terms of surrender. Date considered end of war.

Glen

January 2nd, 2006, 12:48 PM

p99, are these new events, or just reordering (for which I'd be grateful) of the previous ones for easier reading?

perdedor99

January 2nd, 2006, 12:55 PM

p99, are these new events, or just reordering (for which I'd be grateful) of the previous ones for easier reading?

Just reordering so they follow a sequence like the Middle East and South Africa and the Bolivian War. I see the British winning the conventional war in South Africa by the middle of 1963 but them they will be involved in their own Vietnam in the area.

Also Iraq will fall into civil war with the British trying to keep order until a League of Nations accord creates a Republic were all religious groups share power by 1967.

And what will be the results of the Bolivian War?

Faeelin

January 2nd, 2006, 12:57 PM

Interesting. I like the way things in Europe are so chaotic, with the colonial empires going down much more painfully than in OTL.

One question, though. Why are the Peronists allied with communists?

perdedor99

January 2nd, 2006, 01:12 PM

Interesting. I like the way things in Europe are so chaotic, with the colonial empires going down much more painfully than in OTL.

One question, though. Why are the Peronists allied with communists?

The way I see it both the Communists and the Peronists were helping the Bolivians in separate uncoordinated ways but the invasion of Uruguay by Brazil forced the Argentineans to help them. Uruguay is a buffer zone between Brazil and Argentina and is very probable Argentina put away their idealogical differences with Uruguay to defeat the Brazilians. This move didn't make Peron too popular with the core of his party of course.

Glen

January 6th, 2006, 02:11 AM

Still a bit tied up at present.

However, I think that the lack of Nazis and WWII is only going to delay the Civil Rights movement by a few years at most, after much consideration.

However, I can see it unfolding a bit differently. For example, we might see school desegregation ordered before we see the military desegregated fully.

We probably won't see MLK Jr as THE civil rights leader, though there may be a MLK Jr who is a minister and involved.

We'll likely still see Thurgood Marshall arguing a case like Brown vs Board of Education before the Supreme Court and winning, as he was born well before the POD, and the events in Europe and Asia won't have much effect on his career. Probably still even becomes the first African American on the Supreme Court.

Just some thoughts...

Glen

January 9th, 2006, 06:53 PM

A listing of the timeline of Weimar World from the 1920s to 1940s

Weimar World 1920s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=333218&postcount=1005

Weimar World 1930s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=333220&postcount=1006

Weimar World 1940s

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=368272&postcount=1113

Glen

January 9th, 2006, 06:57 PM

Weimar World timeline: 1950-1959

1950
March 29, 1950 Process of Vietnamization of forces serving in Indochina started. By July 1954 close to 50% of French forces fighting the guerillas would be Vietnamese soldiers. This was a result of the losses incurred during the French-Italian war, which created a manpower drain in the French forces at the time.
April 8, 1950 Combined United States-Japanese force capture Huk stronghold in Mt Abak. Casualties are heavy but Huk leader captured during operation. General Maxwell Taylor, US commander in theater, praised the performance of the Japanese soldiers and said this event could be the beginning of a closer relationship between both nations. Picture of Japanese and American soldiers jointly raising each other flags made the front page of Times Magazine.
July 17th 1950-Vikdun Quisling is named ambassador to the Soviet Union. The former Norwegian Minister of the Interior during the early and middle 1940’s, is known for leaning to the extreme right and this post is considered by many a political exile caused by his now unpopular views. Within months of his arrival in Moscow, he would be found dead in his office, apparently by his own hand.
August 9, 1950 President Claude Pepper is assassinated by a group of gunmen while visiting New York City. The assailants are identified as four Puerto Rican independence sympathizers. Vice President Harry S Truman is sworn in as President of the United States later that day. The fall-out from the assassination leads to discrediting of the Puerto Rican independence movement.
September 28th 1950 Outfielder Joe Matthews of the Chicago Cubs wins the homerun crown with 51 HRs and later is named National League MVP.
October 1, 1950 Berlin film studios proudly announce they have now outdone Hollywood movies at the international box office for three years straight. The competition between the two film meccas remains fierce.

1951
April 7th 1951: Dr. Mossadeq elected Prime Minister of Iran. He formally nationalized the nation’s oil industry.
May 1, 1951 The Soviet Union test detonates its first atomic bomb, developed mostly from plans stolen from Germany through espionage.
May 8, 1951 Chinese and French officers met to discuss cooperation to eradicate Viet Minh on both side of their borders.
May 18th 1951: Alcide de Gaspari reelected Prime Minister after the short government of the Italian Social Movement under Count Galeano Ciano is disbanded by the King. The Italian’s People Party will rule the 1950’s in Italy, first under de Gaspari and later under Fernando Tromboni. A staunch Catholic and Conservative party, they moved in the direction of better relations with their neighbors during the period.
September 1, 1951: Great Britain declares an embargo aimed at the nation of Iran. Great Britain challenge of the nationalization of the oil industry failed after the League’s International Court ruled in favor of Iran. Still Iranian economy began to suffer due to the lack of foreign exchange and oil revenues.
September 9, 1951 Operation Joint Strike started by both the Chinese and French in each other sides of the border. Operation last until the end of November and close to 15,000 enemy men are either killed or captured. With the destruction of the Viet Minh sanctuaries on the other side of the Chinese border the war entered a lull in the tempo of operations until the Viet Minh recovered from the terrible casualties of this operation.
November 16th 1951: An anti-Semitic campaign masterminded and planned for years by Lavrenty Beria and Georgy Malenkov finally ends with the arrest of thousands of Jewish doctors and other professionals as traitors to the Soviet Union. The deportations and casualties in the Jewish community will continue until the dead of Stalin in 1953.
December 8, 1951 With war in the Philippines winding down, the German detachment began embarkation home. The German detachment during the war never was bigger than a couple of close support bomber squadrons and two special civic action groups.

1952
January 3, 1952 League of Nations officially announces their mission to the Philippines to be over. Still Australians troops stayed until May 16th 1952 and Japanese forces until October 10th 1955.
February 6, 1952 Border clashes between Soviet Union and China in the Sinking-Soviet border and the Mongolian-Soviet border used by Stalin to launch an invasion of both borders areas. Sino-Soviet War of 1952-53 starts with this action. Stalin gambled that with his very public demonstration that he knows possessed the Atomic bomb the League of Nations wasn’t going to risk general war for some territory in the middle of Asia.
March 7, 1952 United States detonates their first atomic bomb in the Nevada desert.
March 17th 1952: General Fazhollah Zahedi attempt of a coup fails due to the Shah’s doubts in giving support to the General. General Zahedi goes into exile to Turkey.
April 18th 1952: New coalition government takes control of Iran. Dr. Mossadeq still on power but more National Front and Tudeh party members take control of the government. The new Minister of War was a member of the Tudeh and while the Shah was still technically the ruler of the nation the reins of power were on the hands of the Coalition.
May 17th 1952: Soviet “technicians” invited by the Tudeh Minister of War to help modernize the nation’s military.
May 18th 1952- With the unlikely support of the Peronists in Argentina and the Uruguayan Communists, the Movimiento Nacionalista Revolucionario (or MNR) took power in Bolivia and began a process of nationalization of the mines, agrarian reform and the division of the large estates to be distributed to the peasants.
August 9th 1952- An arms sales agreement was signed today between the United States and Chile. US President Truman stated that “…Chile is a beacon of democracy in South America and it’s our nation’s duty to help the country stay that way….”
September 29th 1952- Boston Red Sox outfielder Ted Williams wins the American league batting championship with a .379 batting avg.
November 4, 1952 Harry S Truman wins the US Presidential election.

1953
March5, 1953 - The United States of America finally joins the League of Nations after heavy pressure from President Truman on Congress.
March 10, 1953 Treaty of Beijing signed. Republic of China is forced to recognize lost of the province of Sinking to the Soviets and other small territorial concessions on the Mongolian-Chinese border. Truman's response to this treaty was that, “The fear of this new weapon, the atomic bomb, is the only reason the free nations of the world stood idle while this unequal treaty was imposed on the Chinese people.”
May 7th 1953 Joseph Stalin dies from heart attack on his dacha on the outside of Moscow. With his death, Senator Joseph McCarthy's anti-communist commission begins to lose momentum.
May 12th 1953: Georgy Malenkov announced as the successor of Joseph Stalin as leader of the Soviet Union.
June 5, 1953 Truman, disgusted by a recent outbreak of egregious lynchings in the South, particularly one involving Buffalo soldiers who were veterans of the Philippines campaign, starts a civil rights commission and orders the desegregation of the military.
June 21, 1953 Great Britain detonates their first atomic weapon on the Australian outback. The Japanese are impressed by reports of this explosion and begin a crash program.
August 17, 1953 Mohammad Hatta and Sukarno, just released from prison after serving five years sentences, gave a speech asking the Indonesian people to fight for their freedom and to throw the Dutch out of their country. They immediately went into hiding. This date is considered the start of the Indonesian War of Independence or the Indonesian Insurrection, depending of the point of view.

1954
February 17th 1954- Loose coalition of Kaganovich, Molotov, Khrushchev and Zhukov participated in a succesful palace coup againsts Beria and Malenkov. Beria is killed and Manlenkov dismissed. End of Jewish persecution in the USSR.
May 18, 1954 Charles de Gaulle is replaced as commander of the French forces in Indochina and retires from military service soon after to enter politics.
July 16, 1954 Otto Braun wins reelection as President of Germany in the run-off.
July 19th 1954: Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov flies to Warsaw to discuss a thawing of the relations between both nations. Talks failed due to the Polish Foreign Minister’s General Komorowski-Bor to accept Soviet forces on their soil. The Poles didn’t trust the intentions of the Soviets and also the provocation the stationing of Soviet forces in Polish territory was a risk that must likely was going to be viewed as a threat to the NEA.
September 7th 1954: King Farouk of Egypt died of what is considered heart failure after a state dinner. His infant son, Farouk II, succeeds him. A regent council is created to rule until the time the boy can assume his role as King.
September 22, 1954 The Republic of China and the United Kingdom sign an extension of the lease of the city of Hong Kong that will finally end the British ownership of the city in the year 2050.
September 24, 1954 Secret meeting between Chinese government officials and moderate members of the Viet Minh promises covert support if they tone down their socialist leaning, turn more into a nationalist movement instead of a communist one and get rid of the more radical members of their movement.

1955
January 1, 1955 German President Otto Braun dies, becoming the first president of the Republic to die while in office.
March 2, 1955 Konrad Adenauer becomes the new President of the German Republic after a whirlwind campaign. Gains for his party are expected in the next Reichstag election.
March 13th 1955- Lazar Kaganovich and Vladimir Molotov replaced as leader of the Soviet Union and Foreign Minister in that order. The pro-reform minded Khrushchev and Zhukov ousted the two staunch Stalinist members and began secret reforms to the Soviet institutions.
June 6th 1955: Poland signs a trade agreement with Hungary and the Central European Republic. While failing to negotiate with the Baltic States or Germany many experts considered this a move in a direction of thawing relations between the NEA and Poland.
July 5, 1955 Trade and Cooperation Agreement signed by the Republic of China and the Empire of Japan. Chiang’s victories over the guerillas in his country and over the Viet Minh gave him a false sense of security that came crashing down with the defeat in the war of 1952. Both Japan and his nation considered the Soviet Union the main threat and this treaty is the realization that their best approach was cooperation.
November 8th 1955: First joint military exercises between Chinese and Japanese celebrated in Formosa thru the month.

1956
April 4th 1956- Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia celebrated the anniversary of his return from exile with a declared long week holiday that also celebrated the end of Italian occupation ten years ago. Foreign dignitaries were invited to the different ceremonies celebrated during the week.
April 7th 1956 A veteran of the Negro League, Jackie Robinson, now of the Brooklyn Dodgers, hits a single on his first at bat in the major leagues, becoming the first black man since the late 19th century to play Major League Baseball.
June 20, 1956 The Great Transportation Exposition is held in Berlin. A retrospective on the Zepplin line is a centerpiece, as this is the last year of commercial passenger flights for the airlines as jet planes now dominate the market. Zepplins will stay in service for decades to come for freight transport due to it being much cheaper. Also featured at the Expo is the newest line of speed trains for the German-Europa lines, which are the densest within the German Republic, but is coming to dominate transportation in most of Europe. The auto is relegated to a recreational vehicle for getting away to the far-off countryside. A popular attraction is the panorama display from the German space industry. Many stars of the Berlin Movie Industry, which rivals Hollywood in the USA, put in an appearance at the Expo.
November 5, 1956 Adlai Stevenson wins the US Presidential election.

1957
March 2nd 1957 From his secret capital in the province of Aceh, the self-proclaimed president of Indonesia, Sukarno, asks the Netherlands government to end the conflict and together to began a peaceful transition to independence. The Dutch response was to ask Sukarno to turn himself in and to end the rebellion. The impasse continued.
March 3, 1957 The German A-11 rocket launches the first satellite into orbit. This will be the last great achievement of an independent German Space Program, as spending priorities on domestic programs will not permit further unilateral funding for the very expensive Space program. The German government begins to seek partners for Space exploration.
August 17th 1957- Mustafa Barzani gives a speech in Mosul calling for independence for the Kurdish community in Iraq from the ruling Hashemite dynasty. This speech would spark the beginning of the Kurdish Conflict. Both Iran and the USSR support Barzani's call at the time as a way to undermine the British Commonwealth's Iraqi Kingdom.
November 11th 1957- The Netherlands, suffering the third year of a civil war in their East Indies colonies, asks the Northern European Alliance for membership. Their goal is to get the other member nations involved in the war in the East Indies, though membership by no means assures this. By the end of the year parts of Sumatra, Bali and Borneo are effectively in hands of the rebels while a terrorist campaign against government forces is being fought in Java.

1958
February 17th 1958: Netherlands accepted in the Northern European Alliance but was dismayed when other member nations refused to get involved in the bloodbath in the East Indies.
March 16th 1958- Charles de Gaulle, hero of the Tunisian War, elected Prime Minister of France.
April 15th 1958- 110 dead in terrorist bombing in downtown Baghdad. British High Commissioner and King Faisal II jointly declare a state of emergency in the Kingdom.
April 16th 1958- Chile and Peru sign the Andean Pact, a defensive agreement, due to fears of the Argentines and problems in neighboring Bolivia.
April 17th 1958- High-level guerilla activity began operations in the mountains of northern Iraq. King Faisal II orders armed forces to stomp rebels.
July 4, 1958 The Republic of Germany, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America pool their resources to launch a joint space initiative, the North Atlantic Space Agency. The Central European Republic and other Alliance nations soon join the group as junior partners.
August 13th 1958- American Marines landed in Cuba to help in squelching rebellion in the Santiago and Oriente provinces. The President of the USA declared "the United States will not allow a nation so close to our borders to be destabilized by criminals and outlaws. We will stand by General Batista to the end." But privately the US asked Batista to retire while a more reform minded leader could be found to be put in charge of the Cuban nation.
September 18th 1958 France explodes their first atomic bomb in the Sahara desert.
October 4th 1958- Summer campaign versus guerillas in Northern Iraq ended in an inconclusive manner. King Faisal II asks British government for help.
October 8th 1958- British Prime Minister McMillan pledge help to the Iraqi Kingdom in the form of weapons and advisors.

1959
August 5th 1959: The United States of America and the Philippines complete negotiations with the Sino-Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere to form the Pacific-Asia Co-Prosperity Association (PACPA). One of the main goals of the Association is to strengthen capitalism in the region to combat the spread of Communism.
August 8th 1959- France announces their intention to create a French Union, similar in composition to the British Commonwealth. According to insiders, the colonies most likely to get self-rule by 1960 are Syria, Lebanon and Madagascar.
August 14th 1959- The People’s Republic of Uruguay signs a trade and cooperation agreement with the Soviet Union. The agreement includes the stationing of Soviet agricultural technicians in the nation to ensure the good use of the Soviet imports. Unfortunately, Soviet theories of agriculture will lead to a few famines instead.
September 9, 1959 - The World is shocked when the process of De-Stalinization finally goes public (having been ongoing secretly within the Communist Party of the USSR for years). The revelations of this time would make public the fact that Stalin was the greatest mass murderer in known history, causing many Communist regimes in other parts of the world to attempt to distance themselves from Stalinism, and generally discrediting Communism in the eyes of the rest of the world.
December 25, 1959 Japan explodes their first atomic weapon on Bikini Atoll.

Glen

January 9th, 2006, 07:17 PM

Weimar World timeline: 1960-1969

1960
August 11th 1960-With an ongoing two years guerilla war in the Andes seemingly without end, the MNR Bolivian government accepts the Argentinian offer of troops to help in defeating the rebels and finalizes an arms purchase with the USSR. Uruguayan and Soviet technicians also arrived to help the Bolivians train in their new equipment.
April 17th 1960- Kurdish War enters its second year. No end in sight. British pledge combat troops to try to end the impasse. First corroborated proof of Iranian “volunteers” fighting with rebels.
September 19th 1960- Francisco Franco is assassinated by a car bomb. His will names the young Bourbon Prince Juan Carlos his heir to control of the nation. Although there are some attempts to block this, the army rallies around the young man and control is quickly restored in Madrid.
September 27th 1960- France recognizes the new Spanish government as the legitimate representative of that nation and stops their covert support to guerillas in that country.
October 30th 1960: Italy grants independence to their last colony of Somaliland. The nation takes the name of Somalia. The first new African nation since the founding of South Africa.
November 28th 1960- First British land forces enter combat in Iraq. The so-called “Christmas Gift” offensive that lasted until January 16th caused massive casualties to the rebels and effectively ended high tempo operations by them but still low-level activity continued.

1961
January 3rd 1961-The Bolivian War starts with the advance of Chilenian forces in the direction of Sucre while Peruvian forces began their advance in the direction of La Paz. The Bolivians and their allies were surprised by the Andean Pact response to their suppression of the right wing guerillas.
February 18th 1961- Terrorist bombing to the British barracks of the Sherwood Foresters in Mosul killed 47 troopers and wounded 122. This date considered the beginning of the second phase of the wars. This phase turned into an urban terrorist campaign due to the superior performance of British troops on the field of battle reduced guerilla activity during this time.
April 14th 1961- La Paz falls to Peruvian forces. But with the weather deterioration due to the coming fall the fronts stabilized until the Spring.
May 24th 1961- Khrushchev becomes the first Soviet leader to visit the West, landing in Berlin on this date to meet with the German President and Chancellor.
June 14th 1961- Conflict expands into Syria. First reported terrorist attacks in Northern Syria.
August 13, 1961 Bishop Karol Józef Wojtyła is martyred along with two others when Polish police open fire on an 'illegal' protest march against Polish eugenics and anti-semitic laws. Bishop Wojtyła would eventually be canonized as one of the first Polish saints in many years.
August 14th 1961- Protest in Port Said calling for the British withdraw from the Suez Canal area broken up by British military police. 12 dead in the confrontation and while publicly the Egyptian government supported the British action; negotiations began in Geneva to end the British presence in the area.
October 8, 1961 The Soviet Union shocks the world by sending the first man into orbit. Funding of the North Atlantic Space Agency will increase significantly as the member nations dedicate themselves to putting a base on the moon by 1980.
October 13th 1961- British Commonwealth sanctioned South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia due to their policy of apartheid.
October 15th 1961- Los Angeles Dodgers outfielder Willie Mays wins the National League MVP after leading the Dodgers to the World Series. The Dodgers lost the series but thanks to the 321 AVG, 52 Hrs and 132 RBIs by Mays they won the National League pennant by 7 games over the Cardinals.
October 28th 1961- Joint Bolivian-Argentinean offensive pushed the Chilenians close the original border but offensive need to be ended by the end of November due to Peruvian decision to help the Chilenians by launching an offensive of their own on November 15th and Argentina shifting forces to help Uruguay repel the Brazilian invasion.
November 13th 1961- First round of negotiations between the British and Egyptian government ended in an impasse. While both sides agreed to a gradual devolution of the area to Egypt, the British plan (return to Egypt in phases with a final handover in 2000) was seem by the Egyptian representatives as too extreme.
November 21st 1961- Brazil invades Uruguay. Brazilian High Command shocked by the Uruguayan prepared positions, their well equipped forces and the ferocity of their resistance. Their advance was negligible and their casualties heavy.
December 15th 1961- Brazilian advance into Uruguay stopped by the arrival of Argentinean forces to the theater. A slow grinding process will be started to push Brazilians out of Uruguayan territory that would take all summer.

1962
January 8th 1962- Chilenians start a summer offensive after their materials losses had been replaced by US aid.
February 3rd 1962- After months of negotiation ending in failure, South Africa abandoned the Commonwealth and declared independence.
February 17th 1962- Federation of Rhodesia followed the South African example and declared independence from the Commonwealth.
March 16th 1962: After close to ten years of war the Netherlands agreed to a ceasefire to begin negotiations to end the Indonesian war. By now the islands of Sumatra and Borneo are, except for some small enclaves, under the control of the rebels plus guerilla activity exists in all the islands in the archipelago.
March 18th 1962- Great Britain declares the actions of South Africa and Rhodesia to be illegal and to rescind their declarations of independence.
March 19th 1962: The Imperial Japanese and the Kuomintang governments recognize the Indonesian rebel government as the representative of the Indonesian people. The covert help to the Indonesian movement since late 1957 was suspected but not verified until secret files of both the Chinese and Japanese governments were declassified in the early 21st century.
March 21st 1962- Chilenians end offensive due to exhaustion. While they recovered the territory lost during the enemy attack of October and November the war was not even close to be over.
March 22, 1962- South Africa and Federation of Rhodesia present their case to the League of Nations in Geneva.
March 26th 1962- Peruvians end their offensive due to exhaustion. Casualties in both the Peruvian and Chilenians offensives were very heavy for both sides involved and a diplomatic solution was being searched by all sides to end the conflict.
March 27th 1962- British Prime Minister Rab Butler declares the actions of South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia as illegal and null. Ask the Commonwealth members for support on a police action to remove the now considered illegal governments in those nations. While public reaction is mixed in Canada and Australia-New Zealand, he receives a lot of support in favor of this action in the African colonies and the Indian Federation.
April 2nd 1962- South Africa and the Federation of Rhodesia mobilize their Citizen Force, expecting action by the Commonwealth against them.
April 3, 1962 - Ludwig Erhard of the DVP becomes the first member of that party to win the Presidency of the German Republic. He had started out his career with the DNVP under Carl Friedrich Goerdeler, but left the party for the DVP after Goerdeler retired from politics.
April 6th 1962- Northern Rhodesia and Nysaliland announced their intention of staying in the Commonwealth. Rhodesian security forces began fighting with pro-Commonwealth factions in those areas. Considered the date the South African War started.
April 8th 1962- Canada pledge a Canadian Expeditionary Force composed of elements equal to a division plus support elements attached. This force was ready for deployment by the middle of May 1962.
April 9th 1962- Australia and New Zealand announced a combined ANZAC force equivalent to two infantry divisions and support units were going to be ready for deployment by the middle of May 1962.
April 10th 1962- Indian Federation’s Prime Minister Hatta pledges, “The whole might of the Indian Armed forces is at the disposition of the Commonwealth to eliminate the scourge apartheid is to the Indians living in South Africa.” No mention was made of the effects of that institution on the African natives.
April 29th 1962- Brazil agrees to Montevideo Accord. They will pull out of the remaining Uruguayan territory under their control plus they would pay reparations for the losses incurred to Uruguay in exchange of a five-mile demilitarized zone inside Uruguayan territory and no further claims against Brazil would be made in the future.
May 6th 1962- Task Force Albacore, anchored around the 41st Commando Brigade, captures Walvis Bay after 24 hours of heavy fighting. With the capture of the area a forward deployment base began to be build to receive further reinforcements to end the bid of South African independence.
May 7th 1962- Us President secretly pledge US ground troops to the Andean Alliance to try to end the conflict. The only US Airborne Division, the 6th Infantry, and the 1st Infantry Division are activated for deployment overseas.
May 8th 1962- First Indian forces began arriving in Tanganika to be marshaled for the move south.
May 28th 1962- Meetings between warring factions ended in Caracas without an agreement being reached. League of Nations offers to mediate the conflict but the Andean Alliance refuses, counting on US support to resolve the conflict in their favor.
May 31st 1962- First registered combat between Indian and Rhodesian forces in Nyasiland. Rhodesian forces routed due to less numbers and lack of supplies.
June 4th 1962- Task Force Desert Rat, anchored by the 7th Armored Brigade, began driving in the direction of Windhoek. Resistance was minimal due to complete air superiority in the area.
June 7th 1962- British government announces a blockade of the South African coast. Raw materials and equipment continued to reach South Africa thru Mozambique.
June 19th 1962- Windhoek is captured by Task Force Desert Rat. Northern and central South West Africa abandoned by South Africans with hardly any fighting.
June 29th 1962- Battle of Auob River. First major engagement of the war. British 7th Armored Brigade ambushed by a South African Citizen Force task force in South West Africa supported by 10 Centurion tanks. All South African tanks destroyed but British advance south is stopped.
July 8th 1962- Anchored by the Rhodesian Light Rifles regiment, a joint Rhodesian- South African task force invades Botswana. South Africans leaders recognized that with British control of South West Africa, Botswana was a dagger aimed at their lines of communication with Rhodesia and needed to be neutralized.
July 28th to Aug 1st 1962- Task Force Maple Leaf, anchored around the CEF, landed north of Cape Town while Task Force Lowlands, anchored the 52nd Infantry Division, and landed east of the city. After short fighting near the approaches of the city the South African commander in area agrees to ceasefire and pulls out of the city to save civilians lives after destroying the port facilities.
Aug 4th to Aug 12th 1962- Battle of Durban. Task force Wombat, the Anzac expeditionary force, landed in the outskirts of Durban on the 4th and after 8 days of heavy casualties to both sides captured the city of Durban. TV pictures of the wounded being flown by helicopter to the hospital ships and the naval bombardment of the city by the supporting Royal Navy battleships made world’s newscasts.
Aug 14th 1962- The commander of the Task force Bangalore, Field Marshall R. M. Singh declares Nyasiland secured. Task force Bangalore, composed of three Indian divisions supported by the King African Rifles, began advancing into Northern Rhodesia with increased resistance being found.
Aug 19th 1962- British government offers terms to the South African and Rhodesian governments to end hostilities. Terms rejected by both the South African and Rhodesian leaders.
Aug 27th 1962- Commonwealth forces began buildup of their troops on the area to continue operations to the interior. While expansion of the beachheads in Durban and the Cape continued at a slow deliberate pace, British military leaders decided against launching any major offensive operations until the arrival of overwhelming forces. By the end of November three British divisions have arrived to South West Africa, four British to the Cape Town area with the 1st Armored included, six Indian divisions to the Durban area plus three more Indian divisions to the Northern Rhodesia area. Also massive influx of RAF, RAAF and RIAF units arrived to the theater.
Aug 28th 1962- South Africa and the Soviet Union complete a secret agreement for the shipment of weapons in exchange of gold. Weapons began to be received by the South African forces thru Mozambique’s ports by the end of October. While the majority of the weapons received where antitank portable missiles, also around 60 T-58 tanks arrived by the end of October disguised as “farm machinery”.
September 11th 1962- Indian Prime Minister Hatta, British Prime Minister Rab Butler and other Commonwealth leaders meet in London to discuss how to continue prosecution of the campaign and how to administer the area after all its over.
November 4th 1962- Massive and surprise air offensive launched by combined US-Andean Alliance air assets. By the end of the week they had complete control of the air over Bolivia.
November 13th 1962- In the first combat airdrop since the Tunisian War the US 6th airborne division is dropped behind the main front to capture the passes leading to the front. They effectively cut off close to 40% of the combined manpower of Bolivia and Argentina in the theater.
November 15th 1962- Andean Alliance started their final offensive. While starting slowly by the 17th the Bolivian-Argentinean forces recognized their predicament and began to withdraw in an attempt to force the passes open in their attempt to escape the encirclement.
November 18th 1962- Brazil rejoins the war and invades northeastern Bolivia. Many experts consider this event the reason the Argentines asked for a cease-fire three days later.
November 21st 1962- Argentina asked for a cease-fire. Very lenient terms offered to end hostilities.
November 22nd 1962- Argentina accepts terms. With their economy in shambles after close to two years of war and with the far right opposing Peron due to his help to the Communists in Uruguay, it was enough for the Argentinean government to agree to a cease-fire. Argentinean troops ordered to stay in place and not to engage advancing forces.
November 24th 1962- Santa Cruz falls to Brazilian forces. The Bolivian leaders escape to Argentina and the new provisional government ask for terms of surrender. Date considered end of war.

1963
February 14, 1963 - Berlin based band 'Sealion' with their eclectic mix of American Rhythm and Blues and Klezmer music take the music scene by storm in Europe, releasing their first album on this date. They are eventually followed by several other bands with the 'Berlin Sound'. In England and America this period of pop culture is referred to as the 'Berlin Invasion'.
March 7th 1963- With the continued deterioration of the condition in South Africa, British Prime Minister Rab Butler announces British forces will withdraw from Iraq for service in South Africa, an attempt at the ‘Iraqization’ of the Kurdish Conflict. It was announced a small ground reaction force was going to be kept in Kuwait and some air support squadrons were going to stay in service in Iraq.
November 3rd 1963- Last British ground forces in Iraq cross the border into Kuwait. This date considered being the beginning of the third stage of the Middle-Eastern conflict.

1964
March 13th 1964- Iraq accuses Iran of funding and arming guerrillas in Kurdistan. Iran denies the charges and orders a mobilization of their armed forces in response.
March 31, 1964 - For the first time since the 1940s, the US surpasses Germany as the number one trading partner of Brazil. The rest of the 1960s would see the position going back and forth between the two economic powers.
April 7th 1964- Third round of negotiations between Egypt and Great Britain ended in another impasse due to the Egyptian refusal to accept a 20-year phased handover.
May 4th 1964- Iranian troops cross the border into Iraq near Basra and in the Northern provinces. Start of the Iraq-Iran War and the end of the ‘Iraqization’ policy.
July 7th 1964- Combined British-Iraqi force defeat Iranian advance in the direction of Basra thanks to air superiority and sheer luck. Iranian forces got lost and stumbled into the marshes, making maneuvers very difficult for them.
July 16th 1964- With British air and land forces concentrated in the south, Iranian forces achieved air superiority over the Kurdish provinces and using armor and mechanized forces captured Kirkuk.
July 20th 1964- Ceasefire agreed between the parts to try to reach an understanding to end conflict.
July 23rd 1964- With Iraqi refusal to discuss the Iranian terms, combat resumes in the South and in the Northern provinces.
July 28th 1964- Last Iranian forces in Basra province pushed out of Iraqi soil. British forces began to move north in the direction of Mosul.
August 3rd 1964- Mosul falls to Iranian forces. Reports of Soviet advisors in Iranian armored units corroborated by United States reporters in the city. Rab Butler announces Indian forces marked for deployment in South Africa will be sent to Iraq.
August 4th 1964- Mustafa Barzani gave a speech in Mosul asking the world to recognize the independence of Kurdistan. Both Iran and USSR disavow this speech.
August 7th 1964- With rising unrest in their Kurdish areas, Turkey asks the NEA for help in controlling the situation in those areas.
August 10th 1964- The German 7th Division (Airborne) and the Central European 2nd Division (Airborne) arrive to eastern Turkey to help in diffusing the situation in that area.
August 12th 1964- With the seemingly deteriorating situation and with unrest in their Kurdish provinces, Iran agrees to a League of Nation brokered ceasefire.
August 22nd 1964- Mustafa Barzani after meeting with the Soviet Foreign Minister, agrees to the conditions being negotiated in Jerusalem.
September 14th 1964- The Dutch East Indies achieve independence on this date and change their name to the Republic of Indonesia.
October 5th 1964- Agreement reached in Jerusalem. An autonomous Kurdish government will exist but still as part of the Iraqi nation. Iranian forces began pulling out of Iraq while being replaced by the German 7th Division (Abn) serving as observers of the League of Nations to ensure both sides were complying with agreement.
November 29th 1964- With rising unrest in Syria, Prime Minister De Gaulle declares state of emergency in Syria and blames the Soviet Union for the growing problems in the Middle East.

1965
April 19th 1965-German forces in Iraq replaced by League of Nations’ combined Infantry division composed of troops from Mexico, Romania and China.
July 17th 1965- An agreement is finally reached in the discussions between the Egyptian and British nations in regard to the Suez Canal. The Canal will be transferred to the Egyptian nation on the year 1980 with gradual transfer starting in 1968. Many viewed the agreement as a victory but nationalistic elements considered this agreement as surrender to the British and protests in Egyptian major cities began thru the summer and continued thru the fall.
August 13th 1965- King Faisal II of Iraq assassinated by a disgruntled veteran blaming the Royal family for the problems of the nation. Chaos ensues in the non-Kurdish area of the nation and British forces from Kuwait move in to try to keep order.
August 15, 1965 - Laos becomes a full member of the French Union.

1966
February 26, 1966 - Cambodia is accepted as a full member of the French Union.
September 8th 1966- Bulgaria admitted into the NEA after German recommendation in favor of their membership.

1967
May 18th 1967- The Governor of Alabama, George Wallace, gave his famous speech in favor of segregation including the line,“Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.”
July 4, 1967 - Caribe formally admitted as the fifty-first state of the Union. In the aftermath of the assassination of President Pepper, the Puerto Rican independence movement was discredited and a strong statehood movement took root, with increased English education being seen as vital to that effort. The statehood movement in Puerto Rico spurred a parallel movement in the US Virgin Islands as well. By the mid 1960s, congress was willing to admit both to the Union, but only as a single state. After difficult negotiations, it was finally decided that they would merge to become the State of Caribe.
September 27th 1967- New York Yankees outfielder Lou Brock breaks the record of stolen bases in a season, ending the season with 115 stolen bases. Brock, acquired by the Yankees after the 1965 season from the Cubs, “has changed the Yankees from a power ball to a small ball club” according to his manager Yogi Berra.

1968
January 30, 1968 - Timed to coincide with the New Year, Vietnam formally gains its independence from France. Despite the best efforts of the French government, they were unable to talk the Vietnamese nationalists into joining the French Union, and eventually acknowledged their full independence after decades of struggle.
November 25th 1968 – Outgoing President Richard Nixon signs the Civil Rights legislation bill. There are protests in some major cities of the Southern states as a result.

1969
April 8, 1969 Ludwig Erhard easily wins reelection to the Presidency of the German Republic.
June 2, 1969 NASA sends the first men to the moon (symbolically, a German, American, and Briton).
August 11, 1969 Germans celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the Weimar Constitution (date of its announcement).
November 17th 1969- On the seventh anniversary of the resignation of President Batista, Cuban Foreign Minister Frank Pais acknowledged the help United States gave his nation to achieve the status of a stable democracy in a speech in Matanzas, Cuba.

Glen

January 9th, 2006, 07:30 PM

Weimar World timeline: 1970-1979

1970
January 3, 1970 - Former President Lettow-Vorbeck dies at the age of 99 years old. He lived to see a German set foot on the Moon.
January 14th 1970- Marches in Algiers and other Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian cities in protest of the way the African nations were represented in the French Union. One of the main concerns of the protesters was that the former colonies have the same representation as a district in France, even when they have larger populations than many of that so called districts. They accused the government in Europe of trying to set the balance on their favor.

1971
May 1, 1971 - Workers and Students participate in the worst May Day street riots of the 20th Century. Protests rock the French Union, organized by the Socialist Party and workers’ unions. Asking for equal pay between metropolitan French and citizens of the Union; the protests were peaceful overall but in some places, especially the Arab parts of the Union, riots erupted.
September 30 1971 – Paramilitary violence begins to escalate beyond the typical in Northern Ireland beginning on this date and lasting for the next several weeks.
October 14th 1971-British Prime Minister Edmund Powell stated that “the Irish question need to be resolved,” as a response to the terrible bloodshed of the last couple of weeks in Northern Ireland.
November 5th 1971- National guardsmen called to help enforce some of the Civil Rights initiatives on the Southern states. The sight of armed troops patrolling some of the cities in the South was considered by many political analysts as one of the reasons of the defeat of Kennedy in the 1972 elections.
November 29th 1971- Yuri Andropov elected Soviet leader in response of what many considered the failure of the Khrushchev years. The new hardliner leader promised the “Soviet Union will last as long as their citizens are willing to make sacrifices and the enemies of the Rodina will be eventually crushed.” In later years many viewed this as an attempt to divert the Soviet citizens’ attention way from internal affairs to minimize the problems that existed in the Soviet Union at the time.

1972
August 9th 1972- Italy ask the League of Nations to order a plebiscite to be held in Sardinia as a response to a poll taken in 1970 that stated that more than 69% of the population considered themselves Italians and wished to have some kind of political ties to their mother country. France refused outright, stating they acquired the area as per the treaty that ended the Tunisian War over 25 years before and no political changes were on the near future. The League stated they would investigate further into the case.
September 3, 1972 - The Munich Incident starts. The UK had successfully petitioned the IOC to allow the Mandate of Jerusalem to send a team to the Olympics this year under their own flag. A Jewish terrorist organization struck for the first time outside the Levant when they took the Jerusalem team hostage. German Special Forces managed to kill most of the terrorists before any of the hostages could be executed, but one terrorist managed to fire his weapon at one of the Palestinian members of the team. Ironically, a fellow Jerusalem team-member, this one Jewish, threw himself in the line of fire saving his team mate's life at the cost of his own. More tragically, the incident set off nights of anti-semitic rioting in the major cities of Europe, with many synagogues and Jewish businesses being vandalized. The German President and Chancellor made a joint appearance with leaders of several other European nations to decry this wave of violence, stating that such throwbacks to an earlier age must never happen again. Unfortunately, this would only be the first example of international terrorism as both Palestinian and Jewish terrorist groups took their grudge match to the international stage.
November 7, 1972 - Ronald Wilson Reagan is elected President of the United States of America.

1973
January 21st 1973- President Reagan on his inaugural speech dashed the hopes of the segregationists with a defense of the Blacks’ rights and an assurance that the Civil rights initiatives under President Kennedy will be continued under his administration. He stated “We can’t be the standard of freedom against the evils of totalitarian regimes until our house’s defects are mended. We can’t be the beacon of liberty for this World until all our citizens enjoy the same rights and benefits, without distinction or separation.”
April 18th 1973- Start of the “Krakow Spring.” The city major, Anton Woreslaw, declares that change was needed if Poland was going to survive and asked for democratic elections.
May 11, 1973 President Reagan makes his famous 'Evil Empire of the East' speech about the USSR and its Asian Satellite States.
June 9th 1973- “Krakow Spring” ends with the arrest of Woreslaw and the crushing of the pro-democracy movement in his city. While Woreslaw died while in prison in 1975 while awaiting trial for treason, he was turned into a martyr by the pro-democracy movement in Poland at the time and his memory is revered in modern Poland.
September 14th 1973- Border clashes between Chinese and Manchurian soldiers escalated into a battle with hundred of casualties on both sides. Start of the so-called “Manchurian Crisis” that almost ended in a nuclear exchange between the Soviet Union and the PACPA in early 1974.

1974
January 8th 1974- Yuseef Katani sworn in as the first Shiite president of the Republic of Iraq, following the Sunni Ali Arwan after his six-year term was over. The transition was peaceful, another example that the 1967 accord brokered by the League of Nations to end the “Iraqi Troubles” was holding on.
March 29th 1974- League of Nations asks both the Soviet block nations and the PACPA nations to back down and accept a League of Nation’s mediation to end the border disputes between Manchuria and China. Small clashes since September culminated in a major battle in early March with thousands of casualties to both sides. Records unclassified in the early 21st Century proved the Japanese Empire was ready to deploy nuclear weapons in support of the Chinese if the situation has turned worse to the Chinese. With the known Soviet policy of retaliation in kind many expects now agree the World was very close to a nuclear conflict during the spring of 1974.
June 1, 1974 Declassified documents in the 21st century would show that US covert support to the rebels fighting the Communist government of Uruguay reached its highest level at this date.
July 17th 1974- The German band “Sealion” ended their farewell tour with a sold concert in Yankee Stadium in New York City. The band, one of most popular groups of all time, decided to break up after their lead singer, Johan Lennowitz, converted to Buddhism and decided to follow a solo career under the auspices of his wife the Japanese artists Keiko Onawa. Attempts by other members of the group, especially bassist Georg Horst and the Alsatian born guitarist Paul Mecarde, to change Lennowitz mind about leaving the band failed and all members decided to part ways after one final tour.

1975
March 12, 1975 The Leaders of Germany, USA, and Brazil meet in Havana to discuss democratization in South America.

1976
April 10, 1976 Herbert Ernst Karl Frahm wins the presidency, returning the office to the SPD for the first time since 1955. His term would see the final rapproachment between Poland and the German Republic.
July 4, 1976 Bicentennial of the signing of the US Declaration of Independence.
November 2, 1976 Ronald Wilson Reagan is re-elected President of the United States of America by the largest electoral vote in history.
October 17th 1976- Indonesia is accepted as a member of the PACPA.

1977
October 9, 1977 - The Nuclear Powers meet for an unprecedented multilateral summit, and pledge to freeze building of new nuclear weapons beyond replacement levels, and to work jointly to prevent further proliferation of nuclear weapons throughout the world.

1978
March 4, 1978 - The Uruguay Communist government is ousted from power and the new government pledges free elections by the end of the year.
July 12th 1977- Kingdom of Vietnam accepted as member of PACPA.

1979
August 20, 1979 The NASA moon base, a capsule buried under the lunar soil, goes into operation, a year ahead of the deadline set in 1961.