A different Kulturkampf and a split Catholic Church

[Chengar Qordath]

Early on in the Kulturkampf Bismarck's focus was more on trying to promote the schismatic Old Catholic movement than a general attack on the powers of the Papacy in Germany.

In OTL this move failed because many prominent Catholic leaders in Germany, while quite displeased with the results of the First Vatican Council, were not prepared to go so far as to make a break with Rome, even after some of them were excommunicated for their opposition to Papal Infalliability. Without the local leadership in support of a schism the masses were understandably hesitant to take any radical action.

So, now to our PoD. We begin with Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger, one of the most eminent Catholic theologists in Germany, and one of the leaders of the resistance to the doctrine of Papal infalliability and the anti-liberal actions of the Catholic church. Recently excommunicated for his opposition, but rather than damage his reputation the move has actually increased it.

The schismatic Old Catholics know the value of securing him to their side. However, despite the fact that he considered the Old Catholic doctrines far more acceptable than those of Rome he declined to join the schismatic group, and without such a strong rallying figure the Old Catholics never managed to secure any significant number of converts, and eventually Bismarck abandoned his hopes of promoting the movement and sought to undermine the power of the Papacy in Germany through other methods.

So our PoD, after much agonizing over the consequences of such an action, von Döllinger instead decides to openly support the Old Catholic movement, and is consecrated as the bishop of Bavaria. Before long other Catholic leaders in Germany, slowly at first but soon with growing momentum begin to break with Rome and declare their support for the Old Catholic movement. With the success of the Old Catholics in Germany they also make reasonable gains in nations such as the US and France where there was significant opposition to Papal Infalliabilty and the Church's anti-liberal position. Von Döllinger soon finds himself reluctantly moved into the position of the new pope (or anti-pope, depending on your point of view) of the Old Catholic Church. Bismarck, far less worried about the loyalties of a schismatic Catholic sect led by a German that promotes liberal ideas than he was by a Catholic church that has been increasingly reactionary and trying to increase it's power, decides that the Kulturkampf need not be expanded beyond simply recognizing the Old Catholic movement as the "real" Catholic church, a move which by this time is largely redundant in Germany.

So, does anyone care to speculate some on what happens next? Will the Roman Catholics eventually try to reconcile with the Old Catholics, or will Rome continue on it's reactionary course and gradually fade into irrelevance as the rest of the world moves on? How is Germany changed by the Kulturkampf being shifted from a repression of Catholic leadership to simply an acknowledgement of what has already come to pass?

Wikipedia sources for those who need a bit of quick information on it all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vatican_Council

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Joseph_Ignaz_von_D%F6llinger

[Steffen]

First, I want to congratulate you on bringing up a very interesting idea, one of th emost original PODs I´vr read the last years.

But there are problems with the PODs:

he´s in Bavaria, that makes his "worldly" dealings with authority not with the prussian state, but with the kingdom of Bavaria which has the catholic church as one of it´s pillars. I just don´t see them accepting a schism.

Nitpicks: Bavaria is a kingdom (now a free state) not a see,

I think bishops are appointed by the pope.

[MerryPrankster]

If a major churchman in Bavaria decides to split with Rome, the Bavarian government might be inclined to support him.

The direction the Old Catholics take might be different in TTL. Right now, I believe they're part of the Anglican Communion (though I'll prob. want to double-check that article).

[Chengar Qordath]

First, I want to congratulate you on bringing up a very interesting idea, one of th emost original PODs I´vr read the last years.

But there are problems with the PODs:

He´s in Bavaria, that makes his "worldly" dealings with authority not with the prussian state, but with the kingdom of Bavaria which has the catholic church as one of it´s pillars. I just don´t see them accepting a schism.

Nitpicks: Bavaria is a kingdom (now a free state) not a see,

I think bishops are appointed by the pope.

As to his location, since the First Vatican Council was in 1869-1870, being brought to an end by Italy taking Rome during the Franco-Prussian war, and naturally said war also put religious issues on the back burner in all of the German states. By the time the religious disputes over Papal Infalliability and such picked back up, it was post-unification.

From what I've been able to find, the Bavarian leadership held him in very high regard on theological issues, as evidenced by the fact that he retained his position in a state-run theological university despite his excommunication if nothing else. If he came out in favor of schism I could certainly see the Bavarian state supporting it, especially as his more liberal views were far more common among German Catholics than the hard-line reactionary position Rome was pushing at that time.

If Old Catholics become the dominant sect in Germany it is likely going to put an end to the Kulturkampf, which was largely sparked by the reactionary positions of Rome reinforcing old fears that Catholics would place the Papacy before the state.

In the long term I would think the schism wouldn't last. Eventually Rome would have to either resign itself to the changes of the modern world, or end up becoming increasingly backwards and out of touch with the rest of the world. If they modernise much of the reason for the schism is gone and a reunion is possible, and if not we would likely end up just seeing the Roman Church end up fading into a minor sect with a few thousand followers as the Old Catholics supplant them. Of course long lasting splits between Christian sects have been created over much finer points of doctrine, so I wouldn't deny the possibility of a permenant split.

Thanks for the congratulation on the PoD, I just happened to be lucky and find out about von Döllinger. I really do like the PoD, because it gives us a lot of interesting changes, and all it takes is one man making a single different decision, and he did agonise over what the right thing to do was.

[Tom_B]

It is an interesting POD but I don't think your long term extrapolation is correct. A more successful Old Catholic Church is likely to split itself starting with a largely Jansenstic (and therefore not particularly "liberal") French section getting increasing unhappy with the "Teutonic" dominance of the movement. Later a more subtle trend in the English speaking countries cause their Old Catholics to merge with the High Anglicans and cease to have a seperate identity. The contraction of the RC Church will not be as severe as you extrapolate. It would hold a firm grip on Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and most of Latin America.

Tom

[Chengar Qordath]

It is an interesting POD but I don't think your long term extrapolation is correct. A more successful Old Catholic Church is likely to split itself starting with a largely Jansenstic (and therefore not particularly "liberal") French section getting increasing unhappy with the "Teutonic" dominance of the movement. Later a more subtle trend in the English speaking countries cause their Old Catholics to merge with the High Anglicans and cease to have a seperate identity. The contraction of the RC Church will not be as severe as you extrapolate. It would hold a firm grip on Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and most of Latin America.

Tom

Well, that's certainly also a very likely possibility, I could see the French splitting from the rest of the movement, though I also can not help but wonder how that would effect the secularising trend in France. I could also see the Old Catholics in English speaking areas being absorbed by the High Anglicans, as the two groups are fairly similar and the Anglicans would be much more established.

As for the fate of the Roman Church (to distinguish it from the Old Catholics) itself, I would think a lot would depend on how it reacted to the schism. If the Roman leadership decides to abandon it's more reactionary policies at some point I could see them possibly even convincing some of the Old Catholics to return to the fold. On the other hand, I could also see the possibility of the Roman Church turning even more reactionary with most of the liberal elements gone, and that is not going to be a popular move in the long term. If the Roman Church remains so hostile to the Italian state I could see the Old Catholics making inroads there at least. Ultimately though I doubt the Roman Church would stay reactionary forever because sooner or later the Church leaders will realise that is a bad move for them.

A lot might depend on how fast the Roman Church realises that they must change to keep up with society. If the changes are made pretty quickly before the schism is too firmly established I could certainly see many of the Old Catholics coming back. On the other hand, I could see the Roman Church losing some ground even in their core areas if they take decades to realise that reform is needed.

Another effect I could see from this is major damage to the international prestige of the Catholic church and the Papacy. I can certainly see all kinds of butterflies from that.