The return of the phalanx?

[tallwingedgoat]

I was watching Greek protests the other day and it occurred to me that though the riot police have re-adopted the phalanx formation, what keeps the protesters from doing the same? After all an organized crowd carrying shields can hardly be described as dangerous and warranting lethal response. Should protesters adopt the phalanx they would be much harder to disperse, putting the onus on the police to escalate or allow continued disorder.

I admit I just want to see some modern phalanx action under the Acropolis.

[Typo]

that would require far far more organization and discipline than an angry mob would have

[caspian88]

On the contrary, an organized crowd carrying shields is clearly a potential threat - that crowd has already prepared itself for engagement with the police and could just as easily be carrying weapons in addition to their shields. If I see such a group, I'm going to assume they are looking for a fight and would want them arrested immediately. Shields, helmets and body armor, etc all qualify.

Considering the level of organization required, only an actual organized group could pull this off, considering the level of training required for even a rather pitiful phalanx would be out of reach for a group of randomly organized demonstrators. I doubt any actual funding would be required (nothing out of reach of anyone but the poorest people), but it requires experience and practice to pull it off, and quite a bit of discipline to maintain it during a standoff with police.

[xchen08]

A phalanx mob is just a perfect target for tear gas, puke gas, and assorted dyes to proclaim your guilt. It's not as if modern cops are restricted to sticks and plastic shields.

[elkarlo]

that would require far far more organization and discipline than an angry mob would have

Watch some Korean riots. I was thinking about going to Yonsei U, and saw some of the students on a youtube video capture some police officers.

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

After all an organized crowd carrying shields can hardly be described as dangerous and warranting lethal response.

A Shield can be considered a Dangerous Weapon. Swinging it at someone, Ramming them with it, or using the Edges can seriously mess someone up.

and even if the Protesters have shields, who says they're all the same Quality, or even the same shape? sense I have Doubts they would be able to get Actual Medieval shields or Police Riot shields, the Civilian shield's would be of Varying Material, Size, Toughness, not Good for a Defensive formation like the Phalanx.

and like everyone else said, organization, easier target....

it's just not Practical.

[tallwingedgoat]

On the contrary, an organized crowd carrying shields is clearly a potential threat - that crowd has already prepared itself for engagement with the police and could just as easily be carrying weapons in addition to their shields. If I see such a group, I'm going to assume they are looking for a fight and would want them arrested immediately. Shields, helmets and body armor, etc all qualify.

What makes you think you can just walk up to shield wall and arrest people? Most governments will not order a massacre just because the protesters have shields. Look at Bangkok, two months now and no end in sight even after 25 dead.

Considering the level of organization required, only an actual organized group could pull this off, considering the level of training required for even a rather pitiful phalanx would be out of reach for a group of randomly organized demonstrators. I doubt any actual funding would be required (nothing out of reach of anyone but the poorest people), but it requires experience and practice to pull it off, and quite a bit of discipline to maintain it during a standoff with police.

Organized protests do happen. The Thai red shirts were led by a retire army general. Plenty of labour and left wing organizations are very organized and some groups are practically professional rioters.

A phalanx mob is just a perfect target for tear gas, puke gas, and assorted dyes to proclaim your guilt. It's not as if modern cops are restricted to sticks and plastic shields.

Gas masks are not restricted to the police either.

[Typo]

Watch some Korean riots. I was thinking about going to Yonsei U, and saw some of the students on a youtube video capture some police officers.
Why does this necessarily demonstrate organization?

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

What makes you think you can just walk up to shield wall and arrest people? Most governments will not order a massacre just because the protesters have shields. Look at Bangkok, two months now and no end in sight even after 25 dead.

shields Won't stop gas, Water hoses and Other Non-lethal methods.
and sense the Likelihood of Full body shields is Low, IMO, that leaves the Legs open. Tase'm there, they fall, Protest over.

also, the Safety of the other Citizens and Police men is Important. Shields tend to Imply that they are Ready to Defend themselves, and the Government and Police will respond accordingly.

also, did the Bangkok Protesters have their own shields?

Organized protests do happen. The Thai red shirts were led by a retire army general. Plenty of labour and left wing organizations are very organized and some groups are practically professional rioters.

but does that Describe the Greek Protest?
I don't think so.

Gas masks are not restricted to the police either.

But are they Commercially available in Greece?
if yes, then the second Question is, can the Filter out substances that will be used by the Police?
If yes, then those can't be legal.

and Then you have scenes like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/May2010greekriots1.jpg

look at it. attacking the Police with their Flags.
These Guys show up with Shields and I'm a Policeman there, I'm going to assume they're ready for a Fight. Why else Bring them?

[juanml82]

Organized protesters can very well use, and be trained, in phalanx type tactics, including shields, sticks, slings, gas masks if they are available and they have enough funds and even molotov cocktails.

Of course, the State will nearly always have better equipment, training and countermeasures: tear gas, water hoses, good ol' cavalry, dogs, rubber bullets. And, should everything else fail, fireguns.

[tallwingedgoat]

Organized protesters can very well use, and be trained, in phalanx type tactics, including shields, sticks, slings, gas masks if they are available and they have enough funds and even molotov cocktails.

Of course, the State will nearly always have better equipment, training and countermeasures: tear gas, water hoses, good ol' cavalry, dogs, rubber bullets. And, should everything else fail, fireguns.

Modern anti-riot techniques provide an alternative to lethal force. The point of rioters adopting phalanx techniques is not to defeat police phalanx, but to nullify non-lethal measures and force the government to chose between a massacre or capitulation.

Riot shields and gas masks are cheaply available through the internet. Buying in bulk, the shields are about $30, gas masks $20 each. Riot helmets about the same price. Organized protests with a modicum of planning can easily procure professional equipment.

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/anti_riot_shield.html

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/gas_mask.html

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/anti_riot_helmet.html

[Flocculencio]

Organized protests do happen. The Thai red shirts were led by a retire army general. Plenty of labour and left wing organizations are very organized and some groups are practically professional rioters.

Organisation is not the same as discipline. You may well be able to get a motivated and highly organised group of protestors but the question is if they will stand. I don't think that comes without actual training. If you get them organised into rows with shields that doesn't guarantee that they won't break against disciplined, trained riot police with tear gas as backup.

Also, some police departments still have mounted units- is the average modern day urban protestor comfortable with the idea of holding his ground when a snorting, grumpy horse is shoving towards him with a pissed off cop on it's back?

[The Dean]

tear gas as backup.Also, some police departments still have mounted units- is the average modern day urban protestor comfortable with the idea of holding his ground when a snorting, grumpy horse is shoving towards him with a pissed off cop on it's back?

Love that caption Floc!:cool:

[tallwingedgoat]

Organisation is not the same as discipline. You may well be able to get a motivated and highly organised group of protestors but the question is if they will stand. I don't think that comes without actual training. If you get them organised into rows with shields that doesn't guarantee that they won't break against disciplined, trained riot police with tear gas as backup.

Also, some police departments still have mounted units- is the average modern day urban protestor comfortable with the idea of holding his ground when a snorting, grumpy horse is shoving towards him with a pissed off cop on it's back?

Well as you know, the pike replaced the phalanx formation. Besides modern police horses are not trained to "ride down" a crowd, trampling and biting. They are only trained to move a crowd by pushing them. It would take significant retraining of the horses. Even the breed has to change. Classic warhorses were hot bloods, police horses are often cold bloods which work well around children and tourists. You can tell from that poster the horses are not terribly excited.

Discipline is indeed the problem. But if ancient mobs eventually learned discipline why can't modern mobs?

[elkarlo]

Why does this necessarily demonstrate organization?

They had some org. Had guys guarding the captured police. Also the tactics they used to isolate the police and capture them was pretty well done. Koreans know how to riot. Will see if I can youtube it.

Found the clip, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raIUECVwxAw

[tez]

Shields would be illegal in may places as passive armament. You're not supposed to be meeting the popo on equal terms. How you feel about that depends on your stance towards the popo and protesters in question I guess :p

[The Kiat]

Phalanx nothing, I want to see the Danish police adopt the shield wall!

Oh, and horses have not been ridden since 3000 BCE. The early domesticated horses were a little too small and too weak to support a rider. So the horses could still be riding down rabble, but the cops should be in chariots to emphasize the date.

[jaybird]

Three ranks of tasermen with flashbang grenadiers beats your shield wall :p

[SeptimusMagistos]

I imagine it would do a lot to reduce public sympathy. It's hard to cheer for protesters wearing gas masks while forming a shield wall. It's not really the image most protesters want to project.

[Flocculencio]

Well as you know, the pike replaced the phalanx formation. Besides modern police horses are not trained to "ride down" a crowd, trampling and biting. They are only trained to move a crowd by pushing them. It would take significant retraining of the horses. Even the breed has to change. Classic warhorses were hot bloods, police horses are often cold bloods which work well around children and tourists. You can tell from that poster the horses are not terribly excited.

Discipline is indeed the problem. But if ancient mobs eventually learned discipline why can't modern mobs?

Pushing them is good enough. They don't need to be like the warhorse who 'saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting'. To your average urbanite horses are still going to be strange and intimidating.

Also, ancient mobs had the incentive and the structure to train as phalangites. Does a modern mob meet up every month to conduct war games in order to defend their polis?

[Atreus]

Discipline is indeed the problem. But if ancient mobs eventually learned discipline why can't modern mobs?

Because most modern protesters don't grow up in a culture that instills values supportive to operating in a phalanx, or have not been trained to operate in these sorts of formations, or aren't capable of holding their discipline in the teeth of determined (and, most likely, superior) opposition.

And while ancient mobs were fairly common, I'm very hard-pressed to come up with any examples of them organizing themselves in orderly formations and then holding against intense pressure.

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Modern anti-riot techniques provide an alternative to lethal force. The point of rioters adopting phalanx techniques is not to defeat police phalanx, but to nullify non-lethal measures and force the government to chose between a massacre or capitulation.

or, you know, Ignore them until they Disperse.
there is a lot of different options between the options of Massacre and Capitulation. A government is not going to automatically Cave in or Order the Massacre.

Riot shields and gas masks are cheaply available through the internet. Buying in bulk, the shields are about $30, gas masks $20 each. Riot helmets about the same price. Organized protests with a modicum of planning can easily procure professional equipment.


But it still ignores one Important question.

Is it Legal?
that's Great you and your Protester buddies are gonna show up with your gas Mask and Shields, and you're going there...
and then you get arrested because it's Illegal to Own a Military Grade Gas Mask or police Riot shield.

Look at that, the Protest has Collapsed because no one checked to see if it's Legal.

[Osakadave]

They had some org. Had guys guarding the captured police. Also the tactics they used to isolate the police and capture them was pretty well done. Koreans know how to riot. Will see if I can youtube it.

Found the clip, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raIUECVwxAw

Here's another good clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMi7Jkay0fY&feature=related

And when you need to storm the mad scientists castle, call these guys:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1072/830849611_255f5d0f5a_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1060/830849601_12d91b36a2_o.jpg

Korean's know how to do things right. There're more here: http://www.who-sucks.com/people/the-exciting-world-of-south-korean-protests

Because most modern protesters don't grow up in a culture that instills values supportive to operating in a phalanx, or have not been trained to operate in these sorts of formations, or aren't capable of holding their discipline in the teeth of determined (and, most likely, superior) opposition.

And while ancient mobs were fairly common, I'm very hard-pressed to come up with any examples of them organizing themselves in orderly formations and then holding against intense pressure.

Some of those Korean's do quite well against the cops.

[jkay]

Why not? And I like the idea, too.

You know, all the King's horses - Kings of Persia - FAILED to stop the Greek phalanxes. Among other reasons, it's because they were spear-armed. Why would it go differently now? Yeah, the spear's shorter than a pike, but if a horse tries to run down or push a phalanx, the horse's still likely going to get poked.

And, remember two more things: plenty of protesters are both experienced and sophisticated at what they do. They already often act in sync even across causes of action. High modern idle times, transportability, and communications give protestors alot of potential. Some protestors are even paid pros.

So, suppose an Athenian protest group of Marxists had formed two years ago. They decided it'd be cool to resurrect the old phalanx formation for protests, carrying their signs on their spears. A leader volunteered to organize it. A subsequent discussion decided to pad the shields and spear ends to help with legality and peaceful message. A web site published the ideas.

A core adopted it as their hobby and practiced alot, though most were alot less enthusiastic.

At the next protest they attended, taking Eurail, the core were put in the lead and other key areas. There was no clash at the first protest, and by the end of the event, they had basic discipline and movement down. 'Most everybody else was envious of them, and their site got many protestor community hits after that. Plenty of non-Marxists showed in padded shields and spears in the next event, and even eventually joined in. This time a battle happened, and the phalanxes were eventually routed after a long successful stand.

The group's leader wrote a long constructive criticism, explaining what had happened, and what should happen differently next time if they wanted to stay in the field next time. There were extra practices, and more attended.

The next time a clash happened, they stuck; and vendors were selling padded phalanx gear. Everybody kept reading the criticisms after each battle. By today, there's enough veteran core to stick in most battles.

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Okay, I'm sure the spears would be considered quite suspicious.

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Why not? And I like the idea, too.

You know, all the King's horses - Kings of Persia - FAILED to stop the Greek phalanxes. Among other reasons, it's because they were spear-armed. Why would it go differently now? Yeah, the spear's shorter than a pike, but if a horse tries to run down or push a phalanx, the horse's still likely going to get poked.

And, remember two more things: plenty of protesters are both experienced and sophisticated at what they do. They already often act in sync even across causes of action. High modern idle times, transportability, and communications give protestors alot of potential. Some protestors are even paid pros.

So, suppose an Athenian protest group of Marxists had formed two years ago. They decided it'd be cool to resurrect the old phalanx formation for protests, carrying their signs on their spears. A leader volunteered to organize it. A subsequent discussion decided to pad the shields and spear ends to help with legality and peaceful message. A web site published the ideas.

A core adopted it as their hobby and practiced alot, though most were alot less enthusiastic.

At the next protest they attended, taking Eurail, the core were put in the lead and other key areas. There was no clash at the first protest, and by the end of the event, they had basic discipline and movement down. 'Most everybody else was envious of them, and their site got many protestor community hits after that. Plenty of non-Marxists showed in padded shields and spears in the next event, and even eventually joined in. This time a battle happened, and the phalanxes were eventually routed after a long successful stand.

The group's leader wrote a long constructive criticism, explaining what had happened, and what should happen differently next time if they wanted to stay in the field next time. There were extra practices, and more attended.

The next time a clash happened, they stuck; and vendors were selling padded phalanx gear. Everybody kept reading the criticisms after each battle. By today, there's enough veteran core to stick in most battles.

Problem.

Now they're Carrying Spears in public.
I believe in most places, that would be considered a Crime, Padded or not.

[juanml82]

Even if a political organization manufactures or smuggles riot shields (they would rise a few eyebrows at customs) most States security systems (aka internal intelligence) will know and will have said organization infiltrated.
And nobody in its right mind will send horses against such protesters, as they can just break their formation with water hoses mounted on armored cars (and nothing short of rpgs are getting through that) followed by spraying the protesters with rubber bullets.
So, no, even if ancient warfare can still teach a thing or two, there won't be a replay of ancient battles these days.

[tallwingedgoat]

Korean's know how to do things right. There're more here: http://www.who-sucks.com/people/the-exciting-world-of-south-korean-protests


It was all pretty funny until they ripped apart a live piglet. Something wrong with those sick bastards. :mad:

[Osakadave]

It was all pretty funny until they ripped apart a live piglet. Something wrong with those sick bastards. :mad:

Yeah, that was evil.

[Cockroach]

I was watching Greek protests the other day and it occurred to me that though the riot police have re-adopted the phalanx formation, what keeps the protesters from doing the same?
Small point there: you're looking for a shield wall. For it to be a phalanx the protestors need to come armed with Xystons, Sarrisas or Pikes.

At which point the whole thing moves from a protest to an armed uprising and "The (squished) protester on the Tank tracks goes round and round... round and round... round and round..."
:rolleyes: