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View Full Version : Just a small change, A world of difference


Xen
January 8th, 2004, 11:54 PM
The Republic of Spain was founded in 1868 after the abdication of Isabelle II, nobody knew then it would become one of Europe's most prosperous countries and a world power. Monarchist continued to try to claim the vacant throne throughout the 1870s. The French and Prussians went as far as to fight a war over the throne, it was all for nothing. The 1870's saw the Republicans gain favor amongst the Spanish populists as republican's took Spain kicking and screaming into the nineteenth century. Spain begun to modernize through industrialization in the mid 1870's getting the finances for such an expensive task by selling its colonies to larger economic powers. The Phillippines were sold to Germany in 1877 and Cuba and Guam was sold to the United States in 1879, all that remained of the Spanish Empire was Puerto Rico and its north African colonies.

As the world welcomed the new century, Spain was beginning to re-emerge as one of Europes most influential and powerful countries. Together France and Spain stood in Europe as successful Republic's able to wield considerable influence. It would be no surprise when the two countries signed a mutual defense pact in 1902. The Madrid Pact greatly concerned the monarchies of Europe particularly Great Britain who supported the monarchists in the Portugese Civil War while Spain sympathized with the Republicans. The British support eventually proved decisive with the monarchists winning the Civil War in 1910.

Peace would soon be but a distant memory. On June 28, 1914 Archduke Ferdinand of Austria was assassinated by a pro-Serbian nationalist. The Great War was soon underway. The Republic of Spain sent its troops to help its French ally fight off the Germans, they were soon joined by the British. When Italy joined the allies, Spain sent troops to fight the Austrian's in northern Italy.

The Great War ended in 1918 with the Treaty of Versailles, bringing an end to the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire, the Austrian Empire and the Russian Empire. The war was responsible for the loss of a generation of young men, and the rise of Communism in the east. Peace had returned to Europe. To help pay for the debts the war had caused, Spain ceded Puerto Rico to its ally in the Great War, the United States. The gains made during the war caused many Spanish to be discontent with a generation lost for a few African colonies. The post war years resulted in the rise of two radically different parties, the Nationalists and the Communists. As the 1920's went on, Spain picked up the all American sport, baseball which became a phenomenon during the decade. As the 20's neared an end no one could imagine what layed on the horizon.

Landshark
January 9th, 2004, 12:02 AM
Very interesting, but why does WW1 still last four years when the Entente has the aid of Spain, and an appearently lean and mean Spain at that, from the start?

Xen
January 9th, 2004, 12:06 AM
Very interesting, but why does WW1 still last four years when the Entente has the aid of Spain, and an appearently lean and mean Spain at that, from the start?

I guess I should have specified that it ended at an earlier date in 1918, I was thinking of April 1918. I typed it in there once and then lost it :mad: stupid computer. But the war officially ends in April 1918, not November 1918. That way it gives the US time to get involved, but not as involved.

LDoc
January 9th, 2004, 01:57 AM
Seems a little unlikely to me. Royalist had big support in the military and the government which still had the idea that Spain was a "great power" and if Franco proved anything is that the spanish people do not like to abondone their empire as he claimed the republic had. Industralisation also a long shot considering its lack of natural resources to fuel the fires of industry and the general agarian life style of 19th century spain. Spain had forms of Feudalism up to the Spanish Civil war so it seems unlikely that the powerful nobles would give up their standing in society without a fight. For this to work you would need to have some kind of earth shacking event, such as a civil war, to replace the old guard that is in power. If this is done then I could see you ATL happening as long as Spain has good relations with the USA so it can get its raw materials. But then again you must also wonder how effecent the factories would be in a country famed for its ineffecency, I mean what can Spain produce cheaper, better, quicker then any other already industralized country? It can't produce things cheaper as it will need to import its raw materials, it can't produce things faster as their are already other countries that have far greater skill in factories then spain does, it can't produce things better as spain has no experince with manufacturies. I would say that you would need a civil war along with forieng investment (and a reason for it) along with strong ties with a nation that can cheaply import raw materials to spain.

Please excuse the spelling and grammer

Grey Wolf
January 9th, 2004, 11:31 AM
Personally I think that if Spain decided to remain a republic then it would end up with a Carlist restoration by default. There was no loyalty to the republican ideal, especially amongst the aristocracy who made up both the backbone of the economy and much of the army. Thus if there was not an alternative monarchy to rally around, then the Carlists would have a better time of overthrowing the government in Madrid and establishing their own.

Of course not everything goes as you expect, so who knows.

I am a bit confused why Spain wants to get rid of its empire ? You only need to look at France to see that a republican form of government does not equate with not having any interests in empire. IMHO you can look at the USA too.

Whilst selling Cuba was always one of those things that had a degree of the possible to it, and Cuba was potentially as difficult to pacify as Santo Domingo had proved in the 1860s, I don't know why Spain would want to sell the others short of their about to be stripped away from her. Puerto Rico IIRC had a large degree of self-government and was not a problem (which you recognise), whilst the Philippines had centuries of tradition behind it. The Carolines, Marianas and Guam are hardly problems in themselves.


Grey Wolf

Goldstein
July 26th, 2006, 11:12 AM
Sorry for my english, anyway here goes my reply:

"Personally I think that if Spain decided to remain a republic then it would end up with a Carlist restoration by default. There was no loyalty to the republican ideal, especially amongst the aristocracy who made up both the backbone of the economy and much of the army."

Of course it was loyalty to the republican ideal, specially in the army. The carlism was formed by a buch of northern illiterates supported by some local religious authorities.

"I am a bit confused why Spain wants to get rid of its empire ? You only need to look at France to see that a republican form of government does not equate with not having any interests in empire."

In fact, General Prim (prime minister during the short Saboya dynasty) wanted to sell the colonies and to activate the national industry. Too bad he had shot and died by the opposition.

Anyway, the AT would be more plausible if we make the First republic to come later, after a more expanded Saboya dinasty.

In OTL, after the so-called "glorious revolution" of 1868, the Democratic Party* took power and a liberal monarchy was established. It was overthrown by republican federalists because Prim, the main supporter of Amadeo I, was shot dead and a cuple of years after that the king left spain.
The First Republic faced three problems: Carlist revolts in the north, cantonalism* in the southeast, and separatism/autonomism in cuba. That made the First Republic weak, and it gradually turned into a de facto dictatorship. Then, prince Alfonso XII in exile wrote the manifesto that made possible the restoration.

In an AT, Prim survived and enforced the postrevolutionary monarchic system, facing the carlist and cantonalist attempts and giving a strong authonomy, and ultimately selling, the colonies. The story stood similar to OTL after Prim's natural death (circa 1890), and the republican federalists took power, but in a peaceful and economically strong context. That would have made of Spain a stronger country during the XX century.














*Spanish political factions in 1868:

Moderate Party: Conservative monarchists, limited democracy and Bourbon Dynasty supporters.

Liberal Union: Moderate liberal monarchists, more limited monarchy, individual rights and economic deregulation supporters.

Democratic Party: Like liberal Union, but even more progressive.

Republican Federalism: Obviously, federal republic supporters.

Republican Centralism: More authoritarian republicans.

Carlism: Ultra catholic, antiliberal, absolute monarchy supporters. The carlist motto was "God, Fatherland and Old Law"

Cantonalism: Their republic ideal was a system of mancomuned and almost-independent small districts. During the 1873 Cantonal Insurrection, small districts like Cartagena, Murcia and Jumilla were, athought not nominally, independent states.