Challenge: Jews part of GOP base

[RogueBeaver]

POD 1950, make this happen. Bonus for the GOP being SoCon, Double Bonus for a conservative Jewish GOP POTUS by 1988.

[MerryPrankster]

I posted a similar subject awhile back, but nobody responded. Now that someone else has got the same idea, I think I'll contribute to this one...

For starters we need to figure why so many Jews "have the income of Episcopalians but vote like the Puerto Ricans."

I asked the board if perhaps it had to do with the Jewish doctrine of tikkun olam, which translates as "healing the world" or something like that. Someone who believes in that doctrine might be more inclined to utopian political ideologies and the Democrats seem more inclined to such things than Republicans.

I found some basis for my theory in an Israeli magazine that complained about Reform Jews in the United States--certain Reform organizations in particular--justifying all sorts of bizarre left-wing ideas using tikkun olam. Furthermore, one of the biggest "Jewish liberal" magazines is called Tikkun.

However, Leo_Caesius said that many prominent "Jewish liberals" are open atheists and most American Jews have a fairly secular upbringing to start with. He theorized that the Democratic leanings of American Jews had to do with the Republican claims to be "God's Own Party" and said were he Jewish, he'd vote Democratic for that reason.

So here are some thoughts:

1. Less "utopian" Democratic Party. Post-1945, you've still got the New Deal, but perhaps the Great Society is never proposed?

2. This ties in with the above, but perhaps the Southern Democrats win some internal power struggle? Southern Dems tend to be more fiscally conservative, plus there's the whole racism thing. I remember a Jewish speaker I saw on TV saying Jews and blacks had a "kinship of hardship" and in 1950, the Leo Frank lynching was not all that long ago.

3. If more Soviet Jews are allowed to emigrate earlier (or more of the ones that do go to the US, not Israel), you might have a stronger undercurrent of anti-Communism to American Jewish life. I knew a Jewish girl who came from Russia who hated Stalin more than Hitler--she said Hitler killed other people but Stalin killed his own.

4. A more radically-left turn by the Democrats that sets them against Israel.

5. The GOP stays fiscally conservative but does not become so socially conservative. This deals with the "fear of the religious right" issue.

6. More socially-conservative Jewish population. With its prohibitions of adultery, homosexual behavior, premarital sex, etc. the Torah is pretty darn socially conservative, and most of the liberal Jews are Reform who ignore a lot of the Torah to start with. IIRC many Orthodox Jews are conservative--I'm thinking Michael Medved, although I'm not 100% sure which Jewish denomination he's in.

[RogueBeaver]

Rather ironic since the Southern GOP is among Israel's strongest backers in Congress, albeit not for reasons that Jews would find appealing. As Begin said in 1980: "If the Christian fundamentalists support me in Congress today, I'll support them if the Messiah comes tomorrow."

[MerryPrankster]

Rather ironic since the Southern GOP is among Israel's strongest backers in Congress, albeit not for reasons that Jews would find appealing. As Begin said in 1980: "If the Christian fundamentalists support me in Congress today, I'll support them if the Messiah comes tomorrow."

I remember seeing a quote from a Jewish woman leery of the Christian conservative support for Israel because she thinks it could lead to violence against the Jews in some way.

Thing is, it would only lead to violence against the Jews if the conservatives are theologically right and support for Israel helps bring about the Second Coming, the lead-up of which includes violence against the Jews by the Antichrist.

If Jesus is not the Messiah (or if He is and the premillenial dispensationalists are theologically wrong), the Christian conservatives can be safely exploited.

[Helios Ra]

Rather ironic since the Southern GOP is among Israel's strongest backers in Congress, albeit not for reasons that Jews would find appealing.

I've always felt their support was more out of a Muslims-are-worse-than-Jews pick-the-lesser-evil thing, as well as an apocalyptic belief that Jewish control in Jerusalem will make it more likely that the Temple is rebuilt, and as such the Rapture is brought about faster. You know, the bathshit insane stuff. :)

EDIT: more or less beaten to it, I guess. :rolleyes:

[RogueBeaver]

Well, support for Israel has been a cornerstone of US foreign policy for the past six decades.

[Hendryk]

Bonus for the GOP being SoCon,
That's going to be difficult, given that social conservatism is where antisemitism has traditionally thrived.

There's a very simple and commonsense reason why Jews have historically tended to support progressive parties rather than conservative ones: it's the progressives that actually improved social acceptance of the Jews. It's really that straightforward.

[Emperor Norton I]

1. Less "utopian" Democratic Party. Post-1945, you've still got the New Deal, but perhaps the Great Society is never proposed?
I'm not sure I'd agree with calling it utopian, but no matter.

That's going to be difficult because the things that came with the Great Society will be brimming under the surface regardless and will likely at least try to get passed at some point later on or to some degree. And the programs that were in the Great Society were by and large already proposed (as I recall FDR had proposed, near the end of his term, a number of reforms and programs he felt necessary which would later come in the Great Society, albeit some like a Universal healthcare program/National health didn't.) Unless, of coarse, the programs that would come with the Great Society are put in place by a Republican administration/administrations whether in rabid succession or over a period of time if they are any Jewish voter lure.

2. This ties in with the above, but perhaps the Southern Democrats win some internal power struggle? Southern Dems tend to be more fiscally conservative, plus there's the whole racism thing. I remember a Jewish speaker I saw on TV saying Jews and blacks had a "kinship of hardship" and in 1950, the Leo Frank lynching was not all that long ago.That's also going to be difficult. I don't think the Southern Democrats (or rather, the conservative and "Dixiecratic" ones in question as you had a number of Progressives such as Yarbrough and LBJ) could manage to take over the Democratic party. If I recall correctly, while they could cause an upset by their numbers, the Northern Democrats held a Lion's share of power. There's also a deviation from the GOP's own realignment as a Conservative party within such as scenario. The Southern Democrat's Conservatism was regionally gridlocked.

3. If more Soviet Jews are allowed to emigrate earlier (or more of the ones that do go to the US, not Israel), you might have a stronger undercurrent of anti-Communism to American Jewish life. I knew a Jewish girl who came from Russia who hated Stalin more than Hitler--she said Hitler killed other people but Stalin killed his own.That could work to some degree depending on the date (which I'm admittedly unsure of concerning when Soviet Jews were allowed to emigrate). The problem is, everyone in the US is an anti-Communist, and Bible thumping Adam Smith's works is a heavy part of every Cold war candidate's platform, at least in the earlier part of the Cold war. So I'm not sure why that would give the GOP preference, that is depending on the date and exact climate of both parties at such date.

4. A more radically-left turn by the Democrats that sets them against Israel.It'd need a cause, though.

5. The GOP stays fiscally conservative but does not become so socially conservative. This deals with the "fear of the religious right" issue.No disagreement.

6. More socially-conservative Jewish population. With its prohibitions of adultery, homosexual behavior, premarital sex, etc. the Torah is pretty darn socially conservative, and most of the liberal Jews are Reform who ignore a lot of the Torah to start with. IIRC many Orthodox Jews are conservative--I'm thinking Michael Medved, although I'm not 100% sure which Jewish denomination he's in.I think that would require no Evangelical element in the GOP or at least a neutered one since I think that'd turn off many Jewish voters as I think it has in the OTL.

***

I also think we have to separate a few ideas I think are too close right now, and I'll work in time from the 1950's POD. The Conservatives are not the GOP (or at least weren't always). The Conservatives were a faction of the GOP which, while picking up power, was overshadowed by a Moderate/Liberal allied faction until the Reagan era and aftermath saw it's dominance of the party. If I am correct, the differences in parties weren't so much (base-)ideological as they were in focus. The GOP was white collar; the Democrats blue collar. The GOP's moderates/liberals thought matters should be handled this way, while Democratic moderates/liberals thought they be handeled this way. Etc. While the Reagan era saw the GOP go near wholly Conservative and Right of center, we have to take historical factionalism into account. Therefore, Conservatism is not necessarily key to a Jewish base within the GOP.

[Magniac]

POD 1950, make this happen. Bonus for the GOP being SoCon, Double Bonus for a conservative Jewish GOP POTUS by 1988.

It happened to a small extent in OT, RB.

The rise of Senator Jacob Javits was after 1950.

Okay, I'm sure the statistics will tell us that apart from NY Jews supporting Javits, and possibly Eisenhower doing well in his national races, most American Jews in the post WWII era have been partyline Democrats.

But as the US parties were actually coalitions until quite recently (though I'm sure I don't have to tell you that) and the concept of 'the base' is even newer, then I reckon my example of Jake is pretty valid.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I remember seeing a quote from a Jewish woman leery of the Christian conservative support for Israel because she thinks it could lead to violence against the Jews in some way.

Thing is, it would only lead to violence against the Jews if the conservatives are theologically right and support for Israel helps bring about the Second Coming, the lead-up of which includes violence against the Jews by the Antichrist.

If Jesus is not the Messiah (or if He is and the premillenial dispensationalists are theologically wrong), the Christian conservatives can be safely exploited.
If you Actually Knew ANYTHING of Either The Jewish People or of our Ways, I would at Least Put Some Effort into being Offended, But as it is I Find I can't be Bothered ...

In Truth it is Views Such as yours that an Apocalypse is Even a Possibility that Puts Jews at Grave Risk, if Only because our Status as The World's Punching Bag Leads other Peoples Unjustly to Take out their Frustrations upon us!

To Address The OP, The ONLY Thing Keeping Jews Other than Moderates Like Senators Coleman, Grassley and Specter Away from The GOP is The Endemic Institutionalized Racism that has been Present in The Core Republican Areas, Unfortunately My Very own State Included up Until Very Recently, Since Even Before The GOP Moved into them ...

Furthermore, I Believe The Simple Fact Only Grassley Continues to Remain a Senator Under The Republican Banner, that Tends to Prove The Battle as a Losing One!

:mad:

[Mikey]

If you Actually Knew ANYTHING of Either The Jewish People or of our Ways, I would at Least Put Some Effort into being Offended, But as it is I Find I can't be Bothered ...

In Truth it is Views Such as yours that an Apocalypse is Even a Possibility that Puts Jews at Grave Risk, if Only because our Status as The World's Punching Bag Leads other Peoples Unjustly to Take out their Frustrations upon us!

To Address The OP, The ONLY Thing Keeping Jews Other than Moderates Like Senators Coleman, Grassley and Specter Away from The GOP is The Endemic Institutionalized Racism that has been Present in The Core Republican Areas, Unfortunately My Very own State Included up Until Very Recently, Since Even Before The GOP Moved into them ...

Furthermore, I Believe The Simple Fact Only Grassley Continues to Remain a Senator Under The Republican Banner, that Tends to Prove The Battle as a Losing One!

:mad:

Lean Off the Shift Key!

And if Chuck Grassley is Jewish, it would be news to his whole family. Eric Cantor is the only Republican Jewish elected official on a national level, since Coleman was defeated and Specter switched parties.

And essentially, Jews are always going to veer away from a party that relies on specifically Christian identity, regardless of doctrinal similarity. All the more so since most American Jews are secular, so you'd have to reverse that trend before you can even go on a religious-conservative alliance.

[maverick]

The problem is that this needs to do away with the New Deal Coalition and at the same time keep the Religious Right with the Democrats and the East Coast Rockefeller Republicans as their dominant faction.

Otherwise, Javitz gets the Vicepresidency instead of Ford in 1974...Ford was the only one they wouldn't object that year, but I see no reason for objecting Javitz.

[Emperor Norton I]

The problem is that this needs to do away with the New Deal Coalition and at the same time keep the Religious Right with the Democrats and the East Coast Rockefeller Republicans as their dominant faction.
I don't think there was such a thing as the "religious right" until the evangelical movement fused with the Reagan revolution (there certainly was a religious left which played a key role in the Progressive movement decades before the New Deal coalition, and who heralded reform and so forth on the basis of morality; but I think that had largely subsided save for the Civil Rights movement). And if there is no New Deal Coalition, there's likely not to be such a thing as the Rockefeller Republicans as a heavy part of their ideology was support for the New Deal policies (just thinking they could run them more efficiently).

[MerryPrankster]

In Truth it is Views Such as yours that an Apocalypse is Even a Possibility that Puts Jews at Grave Risk, if Only because our Status as The World's Punching Bag Leads other Peoples Unjustly to Take out their Frustrations upon us!


But apocalypse will only happen if Jesus is the Messiah and will return to Earth in the manner that the premillenial dispensationalists say He will.

(And though I am a Christian, I am not a premil-disp. I acknowledge their scenario as a distant possibility, simply because I am capable of admitting I can be wrong.)

If Judaism is The True Religion and Jesus is a fraud, then you have nothing to worry about. Feel free to take advantage of the evangelicals all you want.

(Unless, of course, you are concerned that they'd realized they've been had and will become angry at the Jews, which does make sense.)

And will you stop with your capitalizing of EVERY WORD? It makes your posts harder to read.

[Corbell Mark IV]

...

However, Leo_Caesius said that many prominent "Jewish liberals" are open atheists and most American Jews have a fairly secular upbringing to start with.
...

Just because you reject the idea of God, doesn't mean you leave behind the moral and ethical concepts that came from the religion that have become interwoven within your culture.

[MerryPrankster]

Just because you reject the idea of God, doesn't mean you leave behind the moral and ethical concepts that came from the religion that have become interwoven within your culture.

True.

However, has "Jewish liberalism" always been part of Jewish culture?

I remember reading about the issue and I recall that the first large wave of Jewish immigrants to the United States (from Germany) were actually conservative, while the later waves (from Russia/Eastern Europe) were more left-wing in their views.

Could this be a function of geography or politics? Perhaps Jews were subject to more odious behavior in Russia than pre-Hitler Germany and that affected their politics.

[Corbell Mark IV]

True.

However, has "Jewish liberalism" always been part of Jewish culture?

I remember reading about the issue and I recall that the first large wave of Jewish immigrants to the United States (from Germany) were actually conservative, while the later waves (from Russia/Eastern Europe) were more left-wing in their views.

Could this be a function of geography or politics? Perhaps Jews were subject to more odious behavior in Russia than pre-Hitler Germany and that affected their politics.

My guess would be more to do with timing. If a certain population of Jews lost faith but remained committed to the traditional focus on eductation during a time when communism was popular among intellectuals...

thus at the "Foundation of Secular Jewish Culture" leftist political thought becomes entreched within this new group.

[Hendryk]

However, has "Jewish liberalism" always been part of Jewish culture?
Only as long as Jews have realized that liberal societies were the ones that would leave them be.

You seem to be trying very hard not to acknowledge this fact. Whatever their personal view on morality, Jews as a whole know that a pluralistic, secular society is the one in which they can most comfortably find a place for themselves.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Only as long as Jews have realized that liberal societies were the ones that would leave them be.

You seem to be trying very hard not to acknowledge this fact. Whatever their personal view on morality, Jews as a whole know that a pluralistic, secular society is the one in which they can most comfortably find a place for themselves.
Hendryk, I couldn't have Put it Better myself ...

Another Fact that Never Seems to Get Mentioned, is because of The Need to Assimilate into Other Cultures, Modern Judaism Perhaps isn't Even Best Considered a Monotheistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism) Religion, Anymore!

More and More, Especially with The Rise of Globalization, Judaism has Been Returning to its Henotheistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism) Roots, Specifically as a Form of Monolatrism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatrism) ...

Which All Comes Down to Mean, That Not Only are we Emphatically NOT Waiting for The Christian Messiah; we're Not Even Waiting for our own Any Longer, as Historically Such Cults of Personality don't Tend to End Well!

Errata: Mikey is Correct about Senator Grassley, I Guess he just Looks Jewish. As for Representative Cantor, in The Eyes of Many of The Jewish Left, he is Very Much The Judas of this Tale, as he hasn't Done Much if Anything to Silence The Hateful Hitler Rhetoric about President Obama. As for My Typing, I have Been Informed by Friends in The Visually-Impaired Community that this Form is Actually The Easiest for them to Read; So, Maybe you Guys are The Weird Ones?

[MerryPrankster]

Only as long as Jews have realized that liberal societies were the ones that would leave them be.

You seem to be trying very hard not to acknowledge this fact. Whatever their personal view on morality, Jews as a whole know that a pluralistic, secular society is the one in which they can most comfortably find a place for themselves.

If I said Jews were left-wing out of self-interest, that might come off as anti-Semitic (assuming Jews only care about themselves or their kindred and/or they're unprincipled).

Plus I did acknowledge "fear of the religious right," even though I suspect the dangers of the RR is overblown to keep them (and other non-Christians) in line.

[Jello_Biafra]

I really don't think its possible with a POD of 1950 or later. Socialism, internationalism and secularism were a very strong force among the Jewish-American population since long before the Great Depression, and those types of values are quite anathema to the GOP.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

If I said Jews were left-wing out of self-interest, that might come off as anti-Semitic (assuming Jews only care about themselves or their kindred and/or they're unprincipled).

Plus I did acknowledge "fear of the religious right," even though I suspect the dangers of the RR is overblown to keep them (and other non-Christians) in line.
No, if you Said that it would be being Honest, And Jews are Nothing if Not Self-Introspective ...

And Yes, we do Look out for our Community First, that Too is One of The Lessons of Assimilation ...

As for The Rest, if Anything, The Dangers of an American Christian Theocracy have been UNDER-Emphasized; Look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, Heck, Even Israel, if you Want Examples of Exactly What Always Happens, Whenever The Wall between Religion and Government is Eroded!

[Nikephoros]

As for The Rest, if Anything, The Dangers of an American Christian Theocracy have been UNDER-Emphasized; Look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, Heck, Even Israel, if you Want Examples of Exactly What Always Happens, Whenever The Wall between Religion and Government is Eroded!

Are you aware of what those countries were like before theocratic rule?

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Are you aware of what those countries were like before theocratic rule?
Unfortunately, Neither Israel nor Saudi Arabia Really Existed in their Modern Forms Prior to their Inception as Theocracies ...

Iran Under The Shah OTOH, While Not The Utopian Paradise it Liked to Claim, had Just Begun a Series of Egalitarian Reforms; if these had Been Allowed to Continue, Instead of Being Brutally Suppressed by The Theocratic Government that Followed, Iran would be a MUCH Different Place, Today ...

Luckily, No Modern State has Even had a Theocracy Imposed upon it; My Mind Quails at The Implications if One Even does!

:eek:

[MerryPrankster]

Luckily, No Modern State has Even had a Theocracy Imposed upon it; My Mind Quails at The Implications if One Even does!

:eek:

I think an American theocracy is a lot less likely than something analogous to Iran--an undeveloped society undergoing a top-down forced modernization reacting against it a la Iran.

And you ought to concede the idea of an American "Christian" theocracy is a good thing to scare the little (fill-in-the-religious minority) girls and boys and keep the votes and money flowing.

And again, will you stop with the bizarre capitalizations?

[MerryPrankster]

As for The Rest, if Anything, The Dangers of an American Christian Theocracy have been UNDER-Emphasized; Look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, Heck, Even Israel, if you Want Examples of Exactly What Always Happens, Whenever The Wall between Religion and Government is Eroded!

What proof do you have of the dangers of an "American Christian Theocracy"?

If by an ACT, you mean a government support by right-wing Christian voters that implements their ideas, how is that any more theocratic than a government supported by left-wing Jewish voters that implements their ideas?

I don't think UHC or gun control is any more theocratic than not funding abortion abroad.

[DCC]

A Christian theocracy is a bogeyman of more than a few people on this list; in the past year I've seen two or three threads about it. And given the foibles of current Western politics, overblown fears of Muslim theocracy can be branded as racist, overblown fears of Christian theocracy cannot. (Nevermind that there's a lot more socially conservative Christian fundamentalist African-Americans than people think; and that Hispanic immigrants are mostly Roman Catholic, and often more serious about it than native-born Catholics. I would not be surprised if the Democratic Party is headed for another rupture in its base a decade or two down the line.)

Back to the thread topic--a conservative GOP-voting Jewish population is unlikely, but not quite ASB. In OTL, many of the most influential original neo-conservatives were Jewish.

Perhaps: Israel loses an Arab-Israeli war, and much slaughter occurs. Jewish politics in the U.S. become, not so much socially conservative, but very hawkish. Since the mid-1960s, the Republican Party has been the more hawkish party. And there you go.

[RogueBeaver]

DCC won the thread. Congrats. :)