What Would an Islamic Europe Look Like?

[Iori]

Alright, so their are alot of Right-wing reactionaries who go on and on about 'Eurabia' and other such nonsense, however this has made me curious.

Let's say at some point Islam becomes the major/ity religion in Europe and has managed to become the dominant religion for centuries, what would
Europe look like, would the same basic states exist (IE France, England etc.), or would entirely new nations come into being?

Given that Islam has developed differently in different parts of the world, how might European Islam develop, would it become the most 'liberal' version,
similar to how Europe is overall the most liberal Christian region, or would it become conservative or something in between?

Would Islam as we understand it even continue to exist, that is to say might European Islam itself change to such a degree that it's in many ways
a separate religion, similar to how Christians view Mormonism?

[Sachyriel]

I believe it would be a pan-European state [Randimoid Caliphate anyone?], save for parts of Spain that are close to Africa, some of Italy 'round Rome, Britain will be gradually getting there, and the Swedes will be talking about making a Nordic Union with the last few other nations that are kinda too cold for people who make a pilgrimage to the middle of a desert as part of a religious ceremony.

[Mirza Khan]

Well, the only real chance to do really do this is to have the Muslims win at Tours and then take over all of France and Italy (somewhat implausible). The Muslims then convert the pagan population of Europe.

Muslim Europe would probably break up as soon as the Ummayyads were overthrown, and equivalents of OTL languages like French and German would still form (though they'd be highly Arabized, especially in technical, religious, academic, and political vocabulary). As for philosophy & politics, the Golden Age of Islam is just getting underway at this point, and will most likely last longer with Islam in a much more dominant position and no crusades (the shock of them to the Muslim world helped to cause a philosophical retrenchment and close-mindedness that ultimately allowed European science to outpace its Islamic counterpart). Much of OTL Islamic philosophy, law, and theology developed after this POD, so you have tons of leeway-coming up with fictional French Muslim Enlightenment philosophers, Islamicized Anglo-Saxons combining Muslim notions of equality with the more democratic features of Common Law to arrive at some proto-proto-parliamentary system, etc.

Oh, and I wouldn't take the European right-wing silliness about Muslims becoming a demographic majority in Europe to seriously. Its in the nature of the far right to be scared of some Other, preferably with a different skin color and an imagined habit of reproducing faster than them. Its all utter bull.

[XNM]

I always wanted to learn how to speak Islam. It's such a beautiful language.

[Keenir]

Let's say at some point Islam becomes the major/ity language in Europe and has managed to become the dominant religion for centuries, what would
Europe look like, would the same basic states exist (IE France, England etc.), or would entirely new nations come into being?

yes.


it all depends on how Islam becomes the dominant religion in Europe.


Given that Islam has developed differently in different parts of the world, how might European Islam develop, would it become the most 'liberal' version,
similar to how Europe is overall the most liberal Christian region,

don't do that - I nearly choked. since when is Europe the most liberal Christian region?

ask the Jews how liberal Europe has been for them.

[Iori]

don't do that - I nearly choked. since when is Europe the most liberal Christian region?

ask the Jews how liberal Europe has been for them.

I meant Modern Europe.
When you compare it to the America's, Christian Africa and Oceania Modern Europe is the most liberal of them.

I should have been clearer on that..

[charl]

I believe it would be a pan-European state [Randimoid Caliphate anyone?], save for parts of Spain that are close to Africa, some of Italy 'round Rome, Britain will be gradually getting there, and the Swedes will be talking about making a Nordic Union with the last few other nations that are kinda too cold for people who make a pilgrimage to the middle of a desert as part of a religious ceremony.

I want to point out here that 5-10 percent of the current Swedish population are Muslim. It is the fastest growing religious group, and it wouldn't surprise me if they actually outnumber active Christians (though a majority of people are members of the church around 80% of the population still identify themselves as atheist, agnostic or otherwise irreligious). Sweden is hardly anathema to Islam. In many ways it is more open to that religion than most of Europe.

[Kalan]

It really depends if europe is only islamised or also arabianised. Egypt, and Syria for instance were both, while Perisa retained its own culture. An arabianised Europe would certainly differ from one that has a roman-islamic culture.

[Sachyriel]

I want to point out here that 5-10 percent of the current Swedish population are Muslim. It is the fastest growing religious group, and it wouldn't surprise me if they actually outnumber active Christians (though a majority of people are members of the church around 80% of the population still identify themselves as atheist, agnostic or otherwise irreligious). Sweden is hardly anathema to Islam. In many ways it is more open to that religion than most of Europe.

But when did Muslims start settling Sweden? Sometime after the Spanish drove them out?

[Emperor Qianlong]

Well according to recent polls europe is largely becoming atheist. I live in Iceland and the last truly religious person (who wasn't working in a church!) I knew was my grandmother.

Actually, it's nonsense to say most of Europe is becoming "atheist". When you look up "atheist" in statistics, it's actually a bracket term of agnostics, the religiously apathetic (which probably are the largest faction), religiously people who simply do not want to be part of a religious community, and actual atheists. There's also a large number of people who are nominally Christian which are effectively religiously apathetic (except maybe that they celebrate Christmas). To a somewhat lesser degree this also applies to Muslims living in Western countries (there's a high uncertainty of the number of Muslims living in some countries as a result). So, I think only relatively few people are genuinely atheist.

Still I think that Jesus was a great man, centuries ahead of his time. As an atheist I find it much easier to respect what he said than what Muhammad did.

Actually, I must disagree. Both Judaism and Christianity are in no ways better than Islam when it comes to a history of violence, misogyny and intolerance. It's only that the West has (largely) moved beyond that. :rolleyes:

I think thaf if we had some very liberal form of islam, with freedom of religion, advanced human rights etc. then maybe it wouldnt really matter.
If we're talking about europe being really islamic, like Saudi-arabia, then I think it would be horrible, for obvious reasons.

About an AH Islamic Europe, it's very hard to say because we don't know what paths Islam would have taken in an ATL. By the standards of medieval Christian Europe, many Islamic societies were more tolerant and liberal than Christian Europe, but in comparison with modern Europe, they were not. Either way, they were liberal than Saudi or Taliban-style, and given these are a relatively new movement in Islam (which in many respect was a spite reaction (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Crying-girl.jpg) to Westernization, although I should add that this doesn't apply to original Saudi Wahabism, because it's considerably older but originally a marginal ideology). I should add that there were previous purist/fundamentalist movements in Islam, such as the Almoravid empire.

[charl]

But when did Muslims start settling Sweden? Sometime after the Spanish drove them out?

Late 1980's in large scale. It's all recent immigration. We take in a lot of immigrants for a country of our size. If we didn't our population would start decreasing.

[Sachyriel]

Late 1980's in large scale. It's all recent immigration. We take in a lot of immigrants for a country of our size. If we didn't our population would start decreasing.

So, of course in the pre-1900s era, Muslim in Sweden were of the 'Allah-Damn-It-We're-Lost' sect of Islam. ;)

[charl]

So, of course in the pre-1900s era, Muslim in Sweden were of the 'Allah-Damn-It-We're-Lost' sect of Islam. ;)

Well, sure. But that was not really my point. My point was that just because the winters are cold doesn't mean Muslims won't go there. Indeed the Russian steppes used to be dominated by the Golden Horde and the Sibr Khanate, both being Muslim.

[Valdemar II]

Well, sure. But that was not really my point. My point was that just because the winters are cold doesn't mean Muslims won't go there. Indeed the Russian steppes used to be dominated by the Golden Horde and the Sibr Khanate, both being Muslim.

Dude, everyone knows muslims don't thrive in cold enviroments :D

The Russians steppes are drier than West Europe, and pigs doesn't thrieve there (at least not to the same extent they does farther west and north), while horses and cattle does. Tghe point isn't that Muslims doesn't tyhrieve in cold enviorement, they don't thrieve in pig country.

[charl]

The Russians steppes are drier than West Europe, and pigs doesn't thrieve there (at least not to the same extent they does farther west and north), while horses and cattle does. Tghe point isn't that Muslims doesn't tyhrieve in cold enviorement, they don't thrieve in pig country.

But Scandinavia is hardly "pig country." Or at least Sweden isn't. Sure, there are pig farms, but there are many more cows (and indeed dairy is a large part of the Scandinavian diet), and even horses. Actually the climate in general should be much more friendly to animals that can handle cold (sheep, goats, horses...) than pigs who really don't do well in the winter, at least in theory.

[Iori]

All this talk about the cold has made me think of something.

Now, as we know religions change over time, sometimes on a core level, so I wonder if at some point we might see a part of a European Islam
develop that basically ignores the whole Hajj and praying all the time thing, do to distance, temperature and, well praying that often takes
up valuable time.

[Hendryk]

How it becomes Muslim would obviously be a factor. Would it be by conquest, peaceful conversion, other? When it happens would also make a difference; before the 8th century or so Christianity was still thin on the ground in much of Europe and could well have been replaced altogether, while after that date it might look more like the situation in OTL's Ottoman-controlled Europe.

[Emperor Qianlong]

All this talk about the cold has made me think of something.

Now, as we know religions change over time, sometimes on a core level, so I wonder if at some point we might see a part of a European Islam
develop that basically ignores the whole Hajj and praying all the time thing, do to distance, temperature and, well praying that often takes
up valuable time.

An Islamic Scandinavia would also probably develop it's own distinct approach regarding fasting during Ramadan. Given how days/nights becoming longer (and beyond the polar circle, perpetual during summer/winter), the purpose of fasting from dawn till dusk becomes in vain. I'm not sure how contemporary Muslims in Sweden deal with it, but AFAIK, I think they basically assume the times of dawn/dusk as if they were in Mecca. The Hajj is not so much of an issue because Muslims are only entitled to do it if possible.

And the statement about "Islam doesn't thrive in pig country" is nonsense, actually. Pork was staple food in the Majapahit Empire (it still is for example in Vietnamese cuisine), and people of the greater Sunda isles changed their diet rapidly when they adopted Islam.

[Iori]

The Hajj is not so much of an issue because Muslims are only entitled to do it if possible.


I thought that only meant you don't have to if you're physically incapable of doing so, like if you have a severe physical condition or something.

It does make sense and is much more sane and pragmatic otherwise, though.

Anyways, I still think it'd be interesting if a version of Islam developed that basically ignored it totally or made it official that doing so was a personal decision and Allah would'nt care if you ever went, regardless of if you could or could'nt.



example in Vietnamese cuisine), and people of the greater Sunda isles changed their diet rapidly when they adopted Islam.

They did or did'nt change?

I'm no expert on the historical cuisine and dietary habits of the Sundanesian people's, but I thought their diets stayed more or less the same?

[Emperor Qianlong]

I thought that only meant you don't have to if you're physically incapable of doing so, like if you have a severe physical condition or something.

It does make sense and is much more sane and pragmatic otherwise, though.

Anyways, I still think it'd be interesting if a version of Islam developed that basically ignored it totally or made it official that doing so was a personal decision and Allah would'nt care if you ever went, regardless of if you could or could'nt.

You have to consider, in the old times, the Hajj was an extremely arduous and dangerous journey. Think about Mansa Musa's journey from Mali to Mecca.

They did or did'nt change? I'm no expert on the historical cuisine and dietary habits of the Sundanesian people's, but I thought their diets stayed more or less the same?

I meant, conforming to Islamic dietary laws.

[Valdemar II]

But Scandinavia is hardly "pig country." Or at least Sweden isn't. Sure, there are pig farms, but there are many more cows (and indeed dairy is a large part of the Scandinavian diet), and even horses. Actually the climate in general should be much more friendly to animals that can handle cold (sheep, goats, horses...) than pigs who really don't do well in the winter, at least in theory.

Southen Sweden are, northen Sweden are not it's goat and sheep country (Lappland of course are reindeer country). But to come to North Sweden you need two thousand kilometer pig country. Any wet area with large temperate deciduous forest are pig country, and while dairy are a large part of Scandinavian diet, pork make up a even bigger part (at least in the southen part).

[Admiral Brown]

The best way to get a Muslim Europe is to have the Arabs conquering Byzanthium in 674/678 or in 711. The Muslims had their walls and their fleet, but you just need a single traitor within its wall, or a deadly plague, and the city falls. Without Byzanthium to contain Islamis expansion, the Mediterrean becomes a Muslim lake and the Balkans and all Southern Europe will soon be Muslim. The Eastern Europeans Pagan Slavs are more likely to convert to a shining civilization like Islam than to the religion practiced by a (comparatively) backward civilization like the Frankish Kindom. The Frankish Kindom will eventually split during a dinastic war of sucesion, and when that happens, one of the contestants will probably ask for help of Muslim states in Southern Europe. He'll probably win, but his Muslims "allies" might not leave after he wins (as it happened in Spain IOTL). Or maybe they do, if he agrees to become Muslim. After all, the Franks had only become Christian 2 centuries ago, and other Germanic tribes, like the Saxons, were still Pagan during the VIII century. They might easily turned to Islam if things were different. Chrisitianity will survive in rural areas of Spain, France, Italy and the Balcans, but, after centuries have past, many would convert to Islam, as it happened in Egypt or in the Middle East. The Basque country will probably be the last Christian stronghold.

As to how Europe would look, it's harder to tell. I don't think you'll have a unified state, due to Europe's terrain, which favours the existance of separate polities.

In The Years of Rice and Salt, Europeans are killed around 1400 by a deadly plague. Empty Europe is repopulated by Muslims. Maghribi Arabs and West Africans dominate the Iberian peninsula, Italy, France and the British Isles; Ottomans control the Balkans; and Islamicized descendents of the Golden Horde establishes themselves in central and eastern Europe as well as Scandinavia. The Pod is ASB, but it's outcome isn't: there are many different states, such as it happened in Spain during the Taifas period. More states than in OTL Europe. They are constantly fighting, but with war comes progress. by present day, you have very backwards states in the Alps, like Turi (Turin, I guess), and progresive states like Nasra, in the Atlantic coast of France, which is ahead of other states in Atomic research.

[Keenir]

Southen Sweden are, northen Sweden are not it's goat and sheep country (Lappland of course are reindeer country). But to come to North Sweden you need two thousand kilometer pig country. Any wet area with large temperate deciduous forest are pig country, and while dairy are a large part of Scandinavian diet, pork make up a even bigger part (at least in the southen part).

So the Muslims there would eat pigs. That's not a deal-killer.

The idea is that you're not supposed to eat pigs if there is something else you can eat -- if pork is the primary option to avoid starvation and ill health, the Muslim Faithful are permitted to eat pork.

[Keenir]

Well according to recent polls europe is largely becoming atheist. I live in Iceland and the last truly religious person (who wasn't working in a church!) I knew was my grandmother.
Still I think that Jesus was a great man, centuries ahead of his time. As an atheist I find it much easier to respect what he said than what Muhammad did.

Jesus called for rebellion, revolt, and the dissolution of families - among other things.

[Keenir]

Now, as we know religions change over time, sometimes on a core level, so I wonder if at some point we might see a part of a European Islam
develop that basically ignores the whole Hajj and praying all the time thing, do to distance, temperature and, well praying that often takes
up valuable time.

ask any Christian or Muslim (or folk of any other faith)...if it takes up valuable time, and you do it anyway, then that demonstrates that its imporant to you!

[Tyr]

I'd think it would have to be pretty liberal Islam- pork is an important part of many European cultures' diets (in eastern Europe it is the main meat) as is alcohol elsewhere.

[Emperor Qianlong]

Jesus called for rebellion, revolt, and the dissolution of families - among other things.

"I have not come to bring peace, but to bring the sword." - Matthew 10:34

[Hendryk]

by present day, you have very backwards states in the Alps, like Turi (Turin, I guess), and progresive states like Nasra, in the Atlantic coast of France, which is ahead of other states in Atomic research.
Word of God has it that Turi is actually Zurich (I thought it was Turin too when I first read the novel). As for Nsara, it was built on the same location as Nantes.

[Polish Eagle]

How it becomes Muslim would obviously be a factor. Would it be by conquest, peaceful conversion, other? When it happens would also make a difference; before the 8th century or so Christianity was still thin on the ground in much of Europe and could well have been replaced altogether, while after that date it might look more like the situation in OTL's Ottoman-controlled Europe.

Peaceful conversion doesn't strike me as likely. How exactly do you convince northern European nobles to give up beer, wine, and pork?

[Spike Torch]

I'd think it would have to be pretty liberal Islam- pork is an important part of many European cultures' diets (in eastern Europe it is the main meat) as is alcohol elsewhere.

I think they would possibly move away from pork among the moneyed and noble classes, while turning a blind eye to any (anyway only occasional, it's only relatively recently meat has become such a big part of people's diets) pork consumption among the lower classes, with the idea of phasing it out... In fact maybe just giving up on the pork ban, or people just accepting it, replacing it with chickens? On balance I don't think it's that hard for pork consumption to die out.

Alcohol is harder to stamp out given it was safer to drink beer or wine than water in many places...

Islam would certainly have to adapt to survive and grow just like Christianity, taking account of local conditions, I think we would have seen a Islamic version of the HRE, splintering into dozens of "states" and with various types of Islam competing for dominance.

[Keenir]

Peaceful conversion doesn't strike me as likely. How exactly do you convince northern European nobles to give up beer, wine, and pork?

have you read the thread at all? (just wondering)

it's considered ideal to not eat them - but if those are the only foods, then eat them.

[truth is life]

Alcohol is harder to stamp out given it was safer to drink beer or wine than water in many places...

Well, that's what you have tea/coffee for :)

[kuzux]

Well, that's what you have tea/coffee for :)
tea and coffee weren't known in europe or middle east till 15th century

[Guerrilla Republik]

Pretty old, but still funny

http://www.markbohan.com/images/jpg-low/Europe_2015.gif

[truth is life]

tea and coffee weren't known in europe or middle east till 15th century

There was at least potentially access to tea much earlier (Muslim trade networks). But they can probably get away without either, really--better hygiene (which certain Muslim practices will probably promote) will help with that.

[charl]

Also in the north you can make infusions of leaves from pine and evergreen (are they called leaves in English? Their needles anyway), and there's many other plants you can do it with elsewhere.

[Emperor Qianlong]

Pretty old, but still funny

Geez, they intentionally omitted Greater Armenia (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=140962) from the map... ;)

[truth is life]

How did we get on the issue of beer and pigs anyways? I guess it's relevant to the topic but no so relevant.

For my take on this, I will take a POD in the 7-800s where Constantinople and Tours were lost to Umayyad armies, and the rest of Europe was fairly rapidly overrun (at least up to the old Roman borders less Britain). You will probably see the formation of many small states relatively soon. When an *Abbasid revolt happens (and it will happen, adding Europe will just accelerate the process), you will probably see several states break away. Perhaps something similar to the OTL Umayyad Al-Andalus will come into being, except dominating most of Western Europe (a kind of Iberian union incorporating the Andalusian heartland and the newly acquired *French territories), while the *Abbasids dominate the east, which would be rather similar to the OTL Roman setup! Except, of course, these states are rivals. Italy and North Africa would probably end up being battlegrounds here.

Religiously, the various minor Germanic/Slavic peoples in the north will convert fairly rapidly. Britain and Scandinavia will take the longest; the former in particular may remain a bastion of Christianity (along with Ireland) in the long run. The latter will probably convert to Islam eventually, though possibly not before suffering some problems. The Russians will definitely convert to Islam in this scenario, their main trade routes are now dominated by Muslims.

Culturally, the West will be much more influenced by Arab and Persian culture. Certainly nothing even remotely similar to Spanish or Portuguese culture arises ITTL, and French culture will be very heavily Arabized (along with Greek and Italian). The Germans will also predominately have Arabic influence, and Britain's OTL French influence...again, replaced by Arabic. With them being tied into the Muslim trading network now, we might see some very nice outcomes in the West--bigger trade, more importation of various Arabic ideas and the like. This would almost certainly help Muslim science survive better, as there is no longer a Christian threat to get them to turn to more...fundamentalist modes of thought. That might accelerate the Scientific Revolution a few centuries, especially if the Caliphates decline in power and the German/Slavic states join the Islamosphere as they did the Christianosphere OTL.

EDIT: Yeah, I've been thinking about this for a while...the first TL I came up with, prior to joining the board, involved a successful Arab siege of Constantinople. When I finish my two current TLs, I'll get back on it.

[Nikephoros]

How did we get on the issue of beer and pigs anyways? I guess it's relevant to the topic but no so relevant.

For my take on this, I will take a POD in the 7-800s where Constantinople and Tours were lost to Umayyad armies, and the rest of Europe was fairly rapidly overrun (at least up to the old Roman borders less Britain). You will probably see the formation of many small states relatively soon. When an *Abbasid revolt happens (and it will happen, adding Europe will just accelerate the process), you will probably see several states break away. Perhaps something similar to the OTL Umayyad Al-Andalus will come into being, except dominating most of Western Europe (a kind of Iberian union incorporating the Andalusian heartland and the newly acquired *French territories), while the *Abbasids dominate the east, which would be rather similar to the OTL Roman setup! Except, of course, these states are rivals. Italy and North Africa would probably end up being battlegrounds here.

Religiously, the various minor Germanic/Slavic peoples in the north will convert fairly rapidly. Britain and Scandinavia will take the longest; the former in particular may remain a bastion of Christianity (along with Ireland) in the long run. The latter will probably convert to Islam eventually, though possibly not before suffering some problems. The Russians will definitely convert to Islam in this scenario, their main trade routes are now dominated by Muslims.

Culturally, the West will be much more influenced by Arab and Persian culture. Certainly nothing even remotely similar to Spanish or Portuguese culture arises ITTL, and French culture will be very heavily Arabized (along with Greek and Italian). The Germans will also predominately have Arabic influence, and Britain's OTL French influence...again, replaced by Arabic. With them being tied into the Muslim trading network now, we might see some very nice outcomes in the West--bigger trade, more importation of various Arabic ideas and the like. This would almost certainly help Muslim science survive better, as there is no longer a Christian threat to get them to turn to more...fundamentalist modes of thought. That might accelerate the Scientific Revolution a few centuries, especially if the Caliphates decline in power and the German/Slavic states join the Islamosphere as they did the Christianosphere OTL.

EDIT: Yeah, I've been thinking about this for a while...the first TL I came up with, prior to joining the board, involved a successful Arab siege of Constantinople. When I finish my two current TLs, I'll get back on it.

Probably the best analysis I've seen so far.

[truth is life]

Probably the best analysis I've seen so far.

Why, thank you! That one's my baby, I'm putting a lot of thought into it.

[Guerrilla Republik]

Why, thank you! That one's my baby, I'm putting a lot of thought into it.

Everybody loves a good Islamo-wank. Everyone

[Nikephoros]

Everybody loves a good Islamo-wank. Everyone

No, not really. I just have no problem with them.

[Tyr]

I wouldn't see England as being too exceptional around 800- just look how fast it fell to the vikings. There are no wooden walls at this time, all you need is a few ships to get your men over the sea. England was pretty darn primitive, a French muslim army would crush it.


Pretty old, but still funny
Why is Sweden left out? Its got a bigger muslim minority than Britain. Lots of Iranians.

But I always thought it odd how each European country seems to have a muslim country to draw its cheap labour from. We each have a different one.

[truth is life]

I wouldn't see England as being too exceptional around 800- just look how fast it fell to the vikings. There are no wooden walls at this time, all you need is a few ships to get your men over the sea. England was pretty darn primitive, a French muslim army would crush it.

That is true, but I didn't think any Muslims would be putting in the effort to crush such a remote and poor island anytime soon (as opposed to jockeying for control of *Al-Andalus or the *Caliphate). Thus, Britain survives because it is ignored, not strong, and eventually becomes strong. Eventually.

[King Thomas]

Well, the medicine in medevil Europe would be better, that's for sure.

[kasumigenx]

How did we get on the issue of beer and pigs anyways? I guess it's relevant to the topic but no so relevant.

For my take on this, I will take a POD in the 7-800s where Constantinople and Tours were lost to Umayyad armies, and the rest of Europe was fairly rapidly overrun (at least up to the old Roman borders less Britain). You will probably see the formation of many small states relatively soon. When an *Abbasid revolt happens (and it will happen, adding Europe will just accelerate the process), you will probably see several states break away. Perhaps something similar to the OTL Umayyad Al-Andalus will come into being, except dominating most of Western Europe (a kind of Iberian union incorporating the Andalusian heartland and the newly acquired *French territories), while the *Abbasids dominate the east, which would be rather similar to the OTL Roman setup! Except, of course, these states are rivals. Italy and North Africa would probably end up being battlegrounds here.

Religiously, the various minor Germanic/Slavic peoples in the north will convert fairly rapidly. Britain and Scandinavia will take the longest; the former in particular may remain a bastion of Christianity (along with Ireland) in the long run. The latter will probably convert to Islam eventually, though possibly not before suffering some problems. The Russians will definitely convert to Islam in this scenario, their main trade routes are now dominated by Muslims.

Culturally, the West will be much more influenced by Arab and Persian culture. Certainly nothing even remotely similar to Spanish or Portuguese culture arises ITTL, and French culture will be very heavily Arabized (along with Greek and Italian). The Germans will also predominately have Arabic influence, and Britain's OTL French influence...again, replaced by Arabic. With them being tied into the Muslim trading network now, we might see some very nice outcomes in the West--bigger trade, more importation of various Arabic ideas and the like. This would almost certainly help Muslim science survive better, as there is no longer a Christian threat to get them to turn to more...fundamentalist modes of thought. That might accelerate the Scientific Revolution a few centuries, especially if the Caliphates decline in power and the German/Slavic states join the Islamosphere as they did the Christianosphere OTL.

EDIT: Yeah, I've been thinking about this for a while...the first TL I came up with, prior to joining the board, involved a successful Arab siege of Constantinople. When I finish my two current TLs, I'll get back on it.
I agree on this.

[Ridwan Asher]

How did we get on the issue of beer and pigs anyways? I guess it's relevant to the topic but no so relevant.

For my take on this, I will take a POD in the 7-800s where Constantinople and Tours were lost to Umayyad armies, and the rest of Europe was fairly rapidly overrun (at least up to the old Roman borders less Britain). You will probably see the formation of many small states relatively soon. When an *Abbasid revolt happens (and it will happen, adding Europe will just accelerate the process), you will probably see several states break away. Perhaps something similar to the OTL Umayyad Al-Andalus will come into being, except dominating most of Western Europe (a kind of Iberian union incorporating the Andalusian heartland and the newly acquired *French territories), while the *Abbasids dominate the east, which would be rather similar to the OTL Roman setup! Except, of course, these states are rivals. Italy and North Africa would probably end up being battlegrounds here.

Religiously, the various minor Germanic/Slavic peoples in the north will convert fairly rapidly. Britain and Scandinavia will take the longest; the former in particular may remain a bastion of Christianity (along with Ireland) in the long run. The latter will probably convert to Islam eventually, though possibly not before suffering some problems. The Russians will definitely convert to Islam in this scenario, their main trade routes are now dominated by Muslims.

Culturally, the West will be much more influenced by Arab and Persian culture. Certainly nothing even remotely similar to Spanish or Portuguese culture arises ITTL, and French culture will be very heavily Arabized (along with Greek and Italian). The Germans will also predominately have Arabic influence, and Britain's OTL French influence...again, replaced by Arabic. With them being tied into the Muslim trading network now, we might see some very nice outcomes in the West--bigger trade, more importation of various Arabic ideas and the like. This would almost certainly help Muslim science survive better, as there is no longer a Christian threat to get them to turn to more...fundamentalist modes of thought. That might accelerate the Scientific Revolution a few centuries, especially if the Caliphates decline in power and the German/Slavic states join the Islamosphere as they did the Christianosphere OTL.

EDIT: Yeah, I've been thinking about this for a while...the first TL I came up with, prior to joining the board, involved a successful Arab siege of Constantinople. When I finish my two current TLs, I'll get back on it.

Although with PoD during the Ummayyads, it won't be Perso-Arabic influence. Arabic, sure. Persian though would be minimal at best, and to be confined in the Balkans, which in that won't be inevitable either. With the conquest of Eastern Roman Empire the Greek Culture would be included in Islamic World, an equal contender to the Persian culture. And it will be rather utopianic if Islam will just merge Greek and Persian Culture into Islamic Perso-Hellen Culture no ? No matter how cool would that be.... :(

Rather, we will see a more divided culturally Islamic world in this scenario. Aside of Greek, Latin and Germanic cultures would be Islamicized as well, and shall we not neglect that if we're to discuss about how the culture and appearance of Islamic Europe would look like :cool:

[Keenir]

That is true, but I didn't think any Muslims would be putting in the effort to crush such a remote and poor island anytime soon (as opposed to jockeying for control of *Al-Andalus or the *Caliphate). Thus, Britain survives because it is ignored, not strong, and eventually becomes strong. Eventually.

actually, wouldn't that make it the perfect place to banish minor princelings that politics won't let you kill?

then, like Constantine himself, the princeling returns with an army at his command, to take over.....spreading English all over Iberia and Italy,

[truth is life]

Although with PoD during the Ummayyads, it won't be Perso-Arabic influence. Arabic, sure. Persian though would be minimal at best, and to be confined in the Balkans, which in that won't be inevitable either. With the conquest of Eastern Roman Empire the Greek Culture would be included in Islamic World, an equal contender to the Persian culture. And it will be rather utopianic if Islam will just merge Greek and Persian Culture into Islamic Perso-Hellen Culture no ? No matter how cool would that be.... :(

Rather, we will see a more divided culturally Islamic world in this scenario. Aside of Greek, Latin and Germanic cultures would be Islamicized as well, and shall we not neglect that if we're to discuss about how the culture and appearance of Islamic Europe would look like :cool:

Persian culture was already starting to become dominant during the Umayyad Caliphate, and with the extra Christians the Umayyads are going to collapse even faster due to tax revolts and dissatisfaction with not actually benefiting from conversion. I'll admit that Arabic culture will be dominant in Western Europe, but Persian culture will certainly be exported after the formation of more Persian-centered states. Probably to the German and Slavic taifa, in my scenario, 'cause I can't see Umayyad-dominated *Al-Andalus reconciling itself with the Persians very soon (though certainly eventually).

It is true though that Muslim culture will have much more internal diversity here, instead of being dominated by Arabs and Persians. I expect Germans, Greeks, and Slavs to all make significant contributions ahead. One fun thing to contemplate is whether the various languages would continue to use "their" script. Obviously, this isn't so much a problem with the Slavs, who don't really HAVE a script yet, and will probably end up borrowing the Arabic one (even if it is probably VERY unsuited to them), but the Germans and Greeks have Latin and Greek, respectively, and the Arabic "alphabet" isn't going to fit it very well. Probably, though, the situation will be like Persia, where a script that doesn't fit is forced on anyways.

[truth is life]

actually, wouldn't that make it the perfect place to banish minor princelings that politics won't let you kill?

then, like Constantine himself, the princeling returns with an army at his command, to take over.....spreading English all over Iberia and Italy,

Ah, but I already have Germany and Poland for that ;) Though it is true that something like William's descent could take place, where someone without a very strong place in *Andalusian society gets a bunch of fighters and goes and attacks and is successful...honestly, though, I'm pretty attracted to the idea of a last Christian bastion, it makes for more entertaining geopolitics.

[Valdemar II]

How did we get on the issue of beer and pigs anyways? I guess it's relevant to the topic but no so relevant.

Because the non use of these products lower the max populationsize, giving the non Muslims a stronger position against the Muslims. Let's take beer (the kind usual used was hvidtøl 1,4% alcohol), because it cleaner than water (which is usual surface water) more children survive to adulthood by drinking this instead of water of course not to speak about all the adults whom get less sick, pig are a important source of protein giving a much large yield than goas and sheeps, and chicken can't replace them (one of the reasons that we saw the gabbage pigs of Cairo), that mean that Muslims will have less access to cheap protein than the Christians. So the result are that even if Muslims take over the Christians will outbreed them, even with the loss to conversions. But it will also mean that we won't see the spread of Islam to Pagan areas at least not peacefully, because outside the mechant class there will be little incentiment to convert, and a large one to not convert.

For my take on this, I will take a POD in the 7-800s where Constantinople and Tours were lost to Umayyad armies, and the rest of Europe was fairly rapidly overrun (at least up to the old Roman borders less Britain). You will probably see the formation of many small states relatively soon. When an *Abbasid revolt happens (and it will happen, adding Europe will just accelerate the process), you will probably see several states break away. Perhaps something similar to the OTL Umayyad Al-Andalus will come into being, except dominating most of Western Europe (a kind of Iberian union incorporating the Andalusian heartland and the newly acquired *French territories), while the *Abbasids dominate the east, which would be rather similar to the OTL Roman setup! Except, of course, these states are rivals. Italy and North Africa would probably end up being battlegrounds here.


Possble except I find a Rhine border implasible, yes it made sense in Caesar time when the Rhineland was empthy frontierland, but at this time it's the heavy populated high yield heartland of the Franks and Alemanni. A border would likely follow the norhten edge of the Seine drainage basin (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seine_drainage_basin.png) and the easten and northen borders of Rhone drainage basin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rhone_drainage_basin.png)

Religiously, the various minor Germanic/Slavic peoples in the north will convert fairly rapidly. Britain and Scandinavia will take the longest; the former in particular may remain a bastion of Christianity (along with Ireland) in the long run. The latter will probably convert to Islam eventually, though possibly not before suffering some problems. The Russians will definitely convert to Islam in this scenario, their main trade routes are now dominated by Muslims.

While I can see the British not convert, I also find the conversion of the other groups implausible, a victor at Tour, won't destroy the Franks it will just at worst drive them out of much of Neustria, but they would continue to thrieve in the Rhineland, besidse that the primary reason to the conversion of Pagan later Germanic and Slavish tribes, was threefold Frankish conquest, fear of it and to use Christianity to centralise their states. While the first two won't give a reason to convert to Islam, with Franks still being Christians, the third one will also lack, Christianity was a good religion to use for centralisation because the clergy produced a adminstrative class and a peaceful way to get rid of second sons, Islam which lack the rigid organised clergy of Christianity would not give this benefit, so we would'nt see the top down conversion we saw of OTL, and a botton up are just as unlikely

Culturally, the West will be much more influenced by Arab and Persian culture. Certainly nothing even remotely similar to Spanish or Portuguese culture arises ITTL, and French culture will be very heavily Arabized (along with Greek and Italian). The Germans will also predominately have Arabic influence, and Britain's OTL French influence...again, replaced by Arabic. With them being tied into the Muslim trading network now, we might see some very nice outcomes in the West--bigger trade, more importation of various Arabic ideas and the like. This would almost certainly help Muslim science survive better, as there is no longer a Christian threat to get them to turn to more...fundamentalist modes of thought. That might accelerate the Scientific Revolution a few centuries, especially if the Caliphates decline in power and the German/Slavic states join the Islamosphere as they did the Christianosphere OTL.


And how did Tours result in the conquest of Italy, which wasn't part of the Frankish Empire at the time.

[sahaidak]

Because the non use of these products lower the max populationsize, giving the non Muslims a stronger position against the Muslims. Let's take beer (the kind usual used was hvidtøl 1,4% alcohol), because it cleaner than water (which is usual surface water) more children survive to adulthood by drinking this instead of water of course not to speak about all the adults whom get less sick,

How did the abstinent Muslims outbreed the wine-drinking Middle Eastern Christians?

[truth is life]

Because the non use of these products lower the max populationsize, giving the non Muslims a stronger position against the Muslims. Let's take beer (the kind usual used was hvidtøl 1,4% alcohol), because it cleaner than water (which is usual surface water) more children survive to adulthood by drinking this instead of water of course not to speak about all the adults whom get less sick, pig are a important source of protein giving a much large yield than goas and sheeps, and chicken can't replace them (one of the reasons that we saw the gabbage pigs of Cairo), that mean that Muslims will have less access to cheap protein than the Christians. So the result are that even if Muslims take over the Christians will outbreed them, even with the loss to conversions. But it will also mean that we won't see the spread of Islam to Pagan areas at least not peacefully, because outside the mechant class there will be little incentiment to convert, and a large one to not convert.
And yet Islam was highly successful in many areas, including ones with climate very similar to Scandinavia or northern Europe. So their failure is not preordained. And of course the political pressure that could be brought to bear against pagan states (much like the political pressure brought against OTL pagan states by Christian states) will be quite...intense. I agree that Christians will probably remain an important minority, but I find it hard to believe that people will actually think (or know) that they shouldn't convert so they can keep having bacon.

Possble except I find a Rhine border implasible, yes it made sense in Caesar time when the Rhineland was empthy frontierland, but at this time it's the heavy populated high yield heartland of the Franks and Alemanni. A border would likely follow the norhten edge of the Seine drainage basin (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seine_drainage_basin.png) and the easten and northen borders of Rhone drainage basin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rhone_drainage_basin.png)
Well, thanks! I guess I need a more eastern border then, on the Elbe or even Oder.

While I can see the British not convert, I also find the conversion of the other groups implausible, a victor at Tour, won't destroy the Franks it will just at worst drive them out of much of Neustria, but they would continue to thrieve in the Rhineland, besidse that the primary reason to the conversion of Pagan later Germanic and Slavish tribes, was threefold Frankish conquest, fear of it and to use Christianity to centralise their states. While the first two won't give a reason to convert to Islam, with Franks still being Christians, the third one will also lack, Christianity was a good religion to use for centralisation because the clergy produced a adminstrative class and a peaceful way to get rid of second sons, Islam which lack the rigid organised clergy of Christianity would not give this benefit, so we would'nt see the top down conversion we saw of OTL, and a botton up are just as unlikely
Well, the Muslims won't just stop. With the main Christian states severely mauled, they're going to keep pushing north and west into the heartland of Europe. And then the first two aspects are going to come in big, because early Muslim states will be very big on the conquer to convert thing. And I dispute that Islam will not be useful to centralization. While the Imamnate might not be as organized as the clergy, there is always the Islamic judiciary to consider, or Persian or Greek models of organization, all of which will be getting exported to the northern areas of Europe.

And how did Tours result in the conquest of Italy, which wasn't part of the Frankish Empire at the time.
Well, with the rest of the Mediterranean littoral fallen into the hands of Muslim states (Umayyad Al-Andalus in the West and eventually *Abbasid Levant/Egypt/Anatolia/Greece in the East), Italy naturally becomes a battleground and target for both Muslim superstates, conquered and contested over time. An indirect result of the decline of the Frankish empire and the end of the Roman.

Remember, I called for a kind of double POD (well, one POD with major ramifications). The Umayyads capture Constantinople, then *Tours is successful and Al-Andalus keeps pushing north into Frankish territory. The borders I called for where the eventual borders after some decades of fighting.

[Keenir]

Ah, but I already have Germany and Poland for that

good point; though England would be for when you don't just want to send them far away, you want to be sure they can't sneak an army through the woods towards you. (maybe you kill your enemy, and exile his kid because politics makes it too dangerous to eliminate them both)

just a thought.

Though it is true that something like William's descent could take place, where someone without a very strong place in *Andalusian society gets a bunch of fighters and goes and attacks and is successful...honestly, though, I'm pretty attracted to the idea of a last Christian bastion,

there's always iceland and greenland.

[sahaidak]

I think that the fall of constantinopel in the eigth century would be much worse for Europe than a loss at Tours. ..That would result in Europe having a muslim majority.
Or much better. You know, world without the Crusades, Reconquista and jihad, with culturally united West Eurasia and reasonably safe overland passage from Britain to India could be better place to live than the OTL twin civilizations fighting each other.

[Valdemar II]

How did the abstinent Muslims outbreed the wine-drinking Middle Eastern Christians?

Because alcohol are diuretic, which mean in a dry enviorement the benefits of it doesn't make up for the cons, at least not to the same degree, beside that a major source of water in the Middle East are wells, which limit the bacteria flora, especially because rain filled European ones with surface impurities. Beside it's only with the 20th century that Christians has been truly outbreed in the Middle East until when they made up between 10-25% of most Middle Easten countries.

[Valdemar II]

And yet Islam was highly successful in many areas, including ones with climate very similar to Scandinavia or northern Europe.

Interesting where?


So their failure is not preordained. And of course the political pressure that could be brought to bear against pagan states (much like the political pressure brought against OTL pagan states by Christian states) will be quite...intense. I agree that Christians will probably remain an important minority, but I find it hard to believe that people will actually think (or know) that they shouldn't convert so they can keep having bacon.

I find it hard to believe that people will mass convert to a religion, which give no benefits at all, while at the same time result in the loss of important sources of protein and the most safe beverage.

Well, thanks! I guess I need a more eastern border then, on the Elbe or even Oder.

Both make better sense than the Rhine, which is a lousy frontier river at the time.


Well, the Muslims won't just stop. With the main Christian states severely mauled, they're going to keep pushing north and west into the heartland of Europe. And then the first two aspects are going to come in big, because early Muslim states will be very big on the conquer to convert thing. And I dispute that Islam will not be useful to centralization. While the Imamnate might not be as organized as the clergy, there is always the Islamic judiciary to consider, or Persian or Greek models of organization, all of which will be getting exported to the northern areas of Europe.

The problem are that one thing the Germanics did have, it was a efficient judiciary system. And to the whole Greek thing, when was Constantinoble conquered and how, and how much of Persian models of organisation was exported to Iberia in OTL. P

Well, with the rest of the Mediterranean littoral fallen into the hands of Muslim states (Umayyad Al-Andalus in the West and eventually *Abbasid Levant/Egypt/Anatolia/Greece in the East), Italy naturally becomes a battleground and target for both Muslim superstates, conquered and contested over time. An indirect result of the decline of the Frankish empire and the end of the Roman.

Okay so you answered the whole Greek thing, but mostly this seems to include a lot of handwavium. But when that's said have you seen the Italian peninsula it's a nightmare to conquer even in modern time the allies had a hell conquering it, especially because the base of the Lombards are in the well defended north. This wouldn't demand two POD it would demand two POD and Harry Harrison as the timelines author. Beside that why would this make the Franks descline, they survived fine isolated at the edge of civilisation in OTL, why would these POD make the Franks roll over and die.

Remember, I called for a kind of double POD (well, one POD with major ramifications). The Umayyads capture Constantinople, then *Tours is successful and Al-Andalus keeps pushing north into Frankish territory. The borders I called for where the eventual borders after some decades of fighting.


I don't buy it. I fail to see how they will succed, Europe isn't the Middle East, it's not terrean made for pre-modern blitzkrieg. So before we answer how a Islamic Europe looks we need a plausible conquest. By the way the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans took 200 years by armies which specialise in that terrean and you suggesst that in a couple of decades, these Draka Muslim will hit the North Sea.

[sahaidak]

Beside it's only with the 20th century that Christians has been truly outbreed in the Middle East until when they made up between 10-25% of most Middle Easten countries. Well, in 661 the Chrisians were in majority in all the Middle Eastern countries except Persia and Arabia. By 1900, they made up 10 to 25%. As far as I understand it, they were outbred, well before the 20th century.
especially because rain filled European ones with surface impurities. Didn't the medieval people know how to cover their wells? I saw two functioning wells in Ukraine, and both were covered with wood roof. When faced with bad water, the Muslims, being prevented from drinking alcohol, will be hard-pressed to do something about it. They'll cover the wells or simply boil water before drinking. There was more than enough of wood in the Northern Europe to feed the fires, so that water would be safe to drink.
You are, probably, right about pork, but higher availability of animal proteine for the Northern European Christians compared to the Northern European Muslims will be negated by lack of alcohol in their diets, if only they will be clever enough to make their water safe. The sober (while meat-deficient) people work better than drunk ones and live longer, even if the latter eat meat more often.

[Valdemar II]

Well, in 661 the Chrisians were in majority in all the Middle Eastern countries except Persia and Arabia. By 1900, they made up 10 to 25%. As far as I understand it, they were outbred, well before the 20th century.

There was also the little fact that they needed to pay a extra tax, which resulted in a loss of resources which could have been used in lean times, and as I have said before alcohol are diuretic, so in a enviorement with the lack of beverages as the Middle East, that's a serious con, especially together with a extra tax to be allowed to drink it.

Didn't the medieval people know how to cover their wells? I saw two functioning wells in Ukraine, and both were covered with wood roof. When faced with bad water, the Muslims, being prevented from drinking alcohol, will be hard-pressed to do something about it. They'll cover the wells or simply boil water before drinking. There was more than enough of wood in the Northern Europe to feed the fires, so that water would be safe to drink.

Wood was a quite expensive resource in many periodes in westen Europe, the primary reason for the coal mining was to find a alternative energy source to wood.

You are, probably, right about pork, but higher availability of animal proteine for the Northern European Christians compared to the Northern European Muslims will be negated by lack of alcohol in their diets, if only they will be clever enough to make their water safe. The sober (while meat-deficient) people work better than drunk ones and live longer, even if the latter eat meat more often.

Except there no evidence at all behind that (neither in efficiency or in lifespan), beside most beers and ciders had between 0,5-1,7%, you would need to drink several litres to get close to drunk. The fact are that the vodka and snaps was produced to create a product strong enough to get people drunk.

[truth is life]

Interesting where?
Well, I was thinking of Siberia/(Volga) Bulgaria, of course. Though admittedly these are maybe not so similar to Scandinavia. They are still quite cold, though.

I find it hard to believe that people will mass convert to a religion, which give no benefits at all, while at the same time result in the loss of important sources of protein and the most safe beverage.
But will people actually know that at the time? Sure, they'll understand no pork and no getting drunk--and that's why Christians will be an important minority for the rest of time. But I don't think they'll see, "Oh, we will be sicker due to inadequately clean water!" And with the probably vast political pressures the Muslim states can bring to bear, I imagine the kings will convert, then forcibly convert a fair amount of their population.

Both make better sense than the Rhine, which is a lousy frontier river at the time.
Right. Thanks.

The problem are that one thing the Germanics did have, it was a efficient judiciary system. And to the whole Greek thing, when was Constantinoble conquered and how, and how much of Persian models of organisation was exported to Iberia in OTL. P
Okay...Constantinople: Conquered in the 700s AD, either the First or Second Siege. Right now I'm leaning towards First Siege, I've eliminated Greek Fire (prevented the supposed inventor from fleeing to Constantinople) so the Greek Navy is defeated by the Umayyad fleet, and so the city starves to death. Thereafter, there a a number of successor states in Greece proper and in the Balkans. I figured that the Umayyads would continue pushing into these tiny little squabbling microstates.

Okay so you answered the whole Greek thing, but mostly this seems to include a lot of handwavium. But when that's said have you seen the Italian peninsula it's a nightmare to conquer even in modern time the allies had a hell conquering it, especially because the base of the Lombards are in the well defended north. This wouldn't demand two POD it would demand two POD and Harry Harrison as the timelines author. Beside that why would this make the Franks descline, they survived fine isolated at the edge of civilisation in OTL, why would these POD make the Franks roll over and die.
See, this is why I'm waiting. I don't want to be Harry Harrison :p I'll admit that I've never seen the Italian peninsula, I just figured that with the whole rest of the old Roman Empire arrayed against them, the Italians aren't going to be independent (or at least Christian) for long. At the very least, most of the South falls to and is held by Muslim armies, and they slowly (very slowly) push north, as the north is repeatedly attacked by armies from both sides. So, it takes 100-300 years to conquer the peninsula, and neither Muslim state can hold it for long. Instead, you end up with...Muslim Lombards!

The Franks decline because they're slowly being rolled over by Muslims and because they're removed from significant tax and manpower bases. It's a decline compared to OTL; there's no Charles who's going to conquer (northern) Italy and half of Germany, here.

I don't buy it. I fail to see how they will succed, Europe isn't the Middle East, it's not terrean made for pre-modern blitzkrieg. So before we answer how a Islamic Europe looks we need a plausible conquest. By the way the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans took 200 years by armies which specialise in that terrean and you suggesst that in a couple of decades, these Draka Muslim will hit the North Sea.
Again, do not want to be Draka! Thanks for pointing this out, I was just hypnotized by the rapid OTL Arab expansion and forgot about the whole, "Europe isn't Middle East" thing. But surely the Ottomans faced significant reinforcement of their targets from the rest of Europe? HRE Leagues, crusades, and such? Not something that's going to happen ITTL.

So, the scenario here is: Constantinople falls in the 600s to an Arab siege after the defeat of the Byzantine navy, ensuring Umayyad control of Anatolia. This secures an important flank, but the rough terrain of the Balkans stymies Muslim armies and allows the Avar Khaganate and various Byzantine successor states to hold off Muslim advances, though Umayyad forces are able to secure Malta, Sicily, and a few ports in the south of Italy. A few decades later, Muslim forces in Morocco and the rest of the Maghreb attack and successfully conquer Visgothic Hispania. They keep pushing north against the Franks, with significant support from Damascus, as their fleets in the Med pretty much dominate that sea. They crush a certain Charles in the early 700s, and continue slowly expanding after the political troubles of the mid-century, reaching the Rhine by 850 and the Elbe by 950. At the same time, Muslim forces have been slowly consolidating control over Southern Italy, eventually pushing to Rome. They suffer a number of setbacks as Lombard forces are mobilized to protect the city, even being pushed back to the south, but eventually capture Rome in the late 800s. The Pope flees the city to the north, and the Lombards mobilize yet again, but are unsuccessful in recapturing Rome.

So, we have at the year 1000 or so:
Umayyad Caliphate, controlling Hispania and Gaul, plus a little of Germania and parts of Morocco, and intermittently controlling certain Med islands and areas of North Africa to the east of Morocco.

*Abassid Caliphate controlling Anatolia, possibly parts of Greece and the Balkans, plus Arabia, Egypt, Persia, and large amounts of southern Italy and North Africa to the west of Egypt.

Various North African states which are usually dominated by one or the other of the Caliphates.

Christian Franks, beyond the Elbe, possibly controlling most of modern-day Germany? Parts of the Slavic lands to the east, and Denmark to the north, as well, maybe.

Christian Britain, divided into many kingdoms and with a large Danish population. This holds for Ireland as well.

Scandinavia, on the verge of Christianizing, but still raiding and fighting.

Christian Lombardia/Italy, secure in their rough terrain, surrounded by hostile states.

Christian Kingdom of Asturias, also secure in their rough terrain. Pressure from the massive Umayyad Caliphate is slowly converting them to Islam, though.

Various small Greek, Georgian, Balkan, Slavic, etc. principalities covering the rest of the map. Mostly neutral, and with various religions. The principalities bordering the Franks or other long-time Christian groups are mostly Christian. The principalities bordering the Muslims are mostly Muslim. Those that are neither are mostly still pagan.

EDIT: Of course, I'm only thinking about Europe and its immediate environs, here. China, India, etc. I haven't figured out yet.

[sahaidak]

There was also the little fact that they needed to pay a extra tax, which resulted in a loss of resources which could have been used in lean times, and as I have said before alcohol are diuretic, so in a enviorement with the lack of beverages as the Middle East, that's a serious con, especially together with a extra tax to be allowed to drink it. Well, the European Christians will be extra-taxed, too. It's part of the Islamic law. Climate is very important, of course, but sufficiently high taxes negate wet weather.

Wood was a quite expensive resource in many periodes in westen Europe, the primary reason for the coal mining was to find a alternative energy source to wood.
All Europeans except English managed to live without coal till 19th century. If they had enough wood to cook their food and heat their houses, they will find some more to boil water. Beside, even unboiled water from good, regularly cleaned, roofed well is safe, most of time.
Except there no evidence at all behind that (neither in efficiency or in lifespan), beside most beers and ciders had between 0,5-1,7%, you would need to drink several litres to get close to drunk. The fact are that the vodka and snaps was produced to create a product strong enough to get people drunk. There is no evidence for health risks of beer consumption?Consuming more than 22 alcoholic drinks a week (excluding wine) is associated with a 63% increased risk of cancer; if consumption includes wine the risk drops to 24%. Consuming more than 21 beer or spirit drinks a week is associated with an increased risk of mortality. M Gronbaek et al. Type of alcohol consumed and mortality from all causes, coronary heart disease, and cancer. Annals of Internal Medicine 2000 133: 411-419.http://http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/hliving/Alctype.html Thus, if an average European Christian drinks no more than three beers per day, he will be fine. But then he will be forced to drink something else besides beer, because three drinks of liquid (or even six drinks, if we take into account weaker concentration of alcohol in ancient beers) are way too little for hard-working people. So, there are two options: to drink much more beer than 3 per day (and be intoxicated, as a result), or to drink water.
As for labor efficiency, I acknowledge that I may be wrong. There are theories that alcohol, especially if consumed without binge drinking, doesn't affect unskilled labor productivity. However, common sense dictates to prefer sober worker to often-drinking one, and medieval European Christians were often drinking alcoholic drinks, without doubt. In the Volga Region of Russia (with climate distinct from the North Western Europe, I acknowledge) the Tatars, being Muslim, had (and have now) longer life expectancy than the local Russians, despite the latter being pork-eaters and heavy drinkers. The Tatars were also preferred as workers, especially in construction industry and property-guarding services. Of course, the Russians drink vodka much more than beer.
What I want to say, is that the limitations of the Islamic diet are not prohibitive for Islamicization of the European regions, especially taking into account overtaxation of the Christians, characteristic for the Muslim-conquered countries.

[Leo Caesius]

European Muslims would probably not produce wine, beer or spirits on their own, but that's only because they wouldn't need to. The production of alcohol would quickly become a cash cow for the Christian minority, who were permitted to produce it under Islamic law and have made a brisk trade of the sale of alcoholic beverages to their Muslim countrymen throughout history. The primary sites for the production and sale of alcoholic beverages would be monasteries, which are celebrated in Islamic poetry with almost exactly the same terms applied to the tavern in English language poetry. Contrary to popular belief, Islamic proscriptions against the consumption of alcohol have never been an effective barrier to Muslims getting drunk.

Ditto for pork. Christians are allowed to raise pig for their own purposes. Pork generally had less of a draw for the faithful, but where beef and other meats were scarce it would serve in a pinch. Remember, it's not like Muslims burst into flames if they eat pork. In Scandinavia, I could see deer, reindeer, bear, and other game meat eventually becoming associated with the Muslim diet.

As far as the jizya goes, there were generally exemptions for those who could not afford to pay it. At times, Islamic rulers treated minority communities as their own personal ATMs and would make a withdrawal whenever they wanted to go on campaign, but otherwise did not collect on a regular basis. I'm not sure what the tax burdens were like in Medieval Europe, but it doesn't seem to me that the jizya differed in any way (and, in fact, Muslims would theoretically pay as much if not more in taxes, particularly if they were Shiite).

[charl]

If you get intoxicated drinking beer with around 1% alcohol content (that would be 2 proof) then you seriously need to talk to a doctor about your dying liver and the fact that you have the body mass of a small cat.

[Nikephoros]

-snip-

Thanks for the reality check. This thread desperately needed it.

[Guerrilla Republik]

European Muslims would probably not produce wine, beer or spirits on their own, but that's only because they wouldn't need to. The production of alcohol would quickly become a cash cow for the Christian minority, who were permitted to produce it under Islamic law and have made a brisk trade of the sale of alcoholic beverages to their Muslim countrymen throughout history. The primary sites for the production and sale of alcoholic beverages would be monasteries, which are celebrated in Islamic poetry with almost exactly the same terms applied to the tavern in English language poetry. Contrary to popular belief, Islamic proscriptions against the consumption of alcohol have never been an effective barrier to Muslims getting drunk.

Ditto for pork. Christians are allowed to raise pig for their own purposes. Pork generally had less of a draw for the faithful, but where beef and other meats were scarce it would serve in a pinch. Remember, it's not like Muslims burst into flames if they eat pork. In Scandinavia, I could see deer, reindeer, bear, and other game meat eventually becoming associated with the Muslim diet.

As far as the jizya goes, there were generally exemptions for those who could not afford to pay it. At times, Islamic rulers treated minority communities as their own personal ATMs and would make a withdrawal whenever they wanted to go on campaign, but otherwise did not collect on a regular basis. I'm not sure what the tax burdens were like in Medieval Europe, but it doesn't seem to me that the jizya differed in any way (and, in fact, Muslims would theoretically pay as much if not more in taxes, particularly if they were Shiite).

Islamic zabiha prohibits eating animals which are carnivores, so Muslims wouldnt eat bears. But deer, reindeer, fish would all be important sources of protein

And the law regarding pork says that one should avoid it at all costs, unless one is going to starve to death

[MNP]

And the law regarding pork says that one should avoid it at all costs, unless one is going to starve to death
This.

But what if it was purely planet fed? "In the wild, they are foraging animals, primarily eating leaves, grasses, roots, fruits and flowers."
I've wondered if it can be got around using that stricture in an area where it was once a staple foodsource.

[Guerrilla Republik]

This.

But what if it was purely planet fed? "In the wild, they are foraging animals, primarily eating leaves, grasses, roots, fruits and flowers."
I've wondered if it can be got around using that stricture in an area where it was once a staple foodsource.

For pork or bears?

[Keenir]

I find it hard to believe that people will mass convert to a religion, which give no benefits at all, while at the same time result in the loss of important sources of protein and the most safe beverage.

I don't think even the Orthodox Jews are as obsessed with bacon and wine as you are. ;)




Okay so you answered the whole Greek thing, but mostly this seems to include a lot of handwavium. But when that's said have you seen the Italian peninsula it's a nightmare to conquer even in modern time the allies had a hell conquering it,

I don't buy it. I fail to see how they will succed, Europe isn't the Middle East, it's not terrean made for pre-modern blitzkrieg.

so how did all those Christians manage to make large European empires? pre-HRE, that is.

[Keenir]

Islamic zabiha prohibits eating animals which are carnivores, so Muslims wouldnt eat bears. But deer, reindeer, fish would all be important sources of protein


if you're not going to eat an omnivore like a bear, why would you eat fish (which range from carnivores to insectivores) ?

just wondering.

[Leo Caesius]

Islamic zabiha prohibits eating animals which are carnivores, so Muslims wouldnt eat bears. Dhabiha technically refers to the ritual means by which such animals are slaughtered, not the sort of animals that may be consumed. The prohibition against carnivores isn't Qur'anic (al-Ma'ida 5:3) and as far as I know bears aren't specifically condemned by the fuqahaa (unlike lions, tigers, cheetahs, cats, dogs, and wolves, which are), although there appears to be a general consensus that they are haraam, at least in the Hanafi school. Note, though, that the Hanafi school specifically prohibits donkey and horse meat, as well, but from personal experience I can tell you that both of these substances are fairly easy to find in Egypt.

[MNP]

For pork or bears?
Pork mostly. As far as I know bears can't subsist on a diet of all plants (though they eat mostly plants).

[Nikephoros]

For pork or bears?

I don't think people often ate bears. At best they might be luxury.

[Leo Caesius]

I don't think people often ate bears. At best they might be luxury.Now that I think about it, I'm not sure how practical it would be to slaughter a wild bear in the Islamic approved fashion. In theory you could try to domesticate bears as they do in Russia and rear them on an herbivorous diet, but I wouldn't try to slaughter one without first putting it to sleep, and that's certainly not halal. So, right, probably not a major source of nutrition.

[Nikephoros]

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure how practical it would be to slaughter a wild bear in the Islamic approved fashion. In theory you could try to domesticate bears as they do in Russia and rear them on an herbivorous diet, but I wouldn't try to slaughter one without first putting it to sleep, and that's certainly not halal. So, right, probably not a major source of nutrition.

Carnivores are a very inefficient food source.

[Keenir]

Carnivores are a very inefficient food source.

eating anything is inefficient. nu? ;)

[Nikephoros]

eating anything is inefficient. nu? ;)

I'm gonna pretend you never posted that. I have no clue what you mean.

[Keenir]

I'm gonna pretend you never posted that. I have no clue what you mean.

herbivores process plants inefficiently.

carnivores process meat inefficiently.

probably the most efficient things on Earth are mosquitos and chemovores.

[Guerrilla Republik]

Pork mostly. As far as I know bears can't subsist on a diet of all plants (though they eat mostly plants).

I don't think rearing pigs on a herbivorous diet would loophole the law. The reason pigs are not halal is because they are considered unclean and dirty animals. Some reasons put down by scholars include that since pigs do not have a jugular or neck, it cannot be slaughtered according Islamic fashion. All the blood does not come out, leaving it inside the meat. And pig blood does contain high levels of Uric acid

[Nikephoros]

And pig blood does contain high levels of Uric acid

Which makes sense when you consider Islam's origins.

[Guerrilla Republik]

Which makes sense when you consider Islam's origins.

I dont follow

[Nikephoros]

I dont follow

Many of Islam's prohibitions go back to the desert. Alcohol is banned partially because of its dehydrating affect. The same happens with blood. Being relatively rich in Uric Acid, it could add a dehydrating effect.

[Guerrilla Republik]

Many of Islam's prohibitions go back to the desert. Alcohol is banned partially because of its dehydrating affect. The same happens with blood. Being relatively rich in Uric Acid, it could add a dehydrating effect.

Oh, makes sense.

[charl]

How about boar and other wild pig-like animals? Are they also considered to be unclean food?

[Guerrilla Republik]

How about boar and other wild pig-like animals? Are they also considered to be unclean food?
i think its the whole family

[Leo Caesius]

At least in the Hanafi school, yes, for the reasons that you've already pointed out.

[charl]

Allright then. We might see the European boar population surviving longer if the continent was dominated by Muslims then. IIRC the boar died out in most of Europe because people kept hunting them for food and to a lesser extent sport.

[MNP]

I don't think rearing pigs on a herbivorous diet would loophole the law. The reason pigs are not halal is because they are considered unclean and dirty animals. Some reasons put down by scholars include that since pigs do not have a jugular or neck, it cannot be slaughtered according Islamic fashion. All the blood does not come out, leaving it inside the meat. And pig blood does contain high levels of Uric acid
Ah yes, I knew there was another reason I decided it was just impossible to loophole when I last researched the issue. Thanks.

[Valdemar II]

European Muslims would probably not produce wine, beer or spirits on their own, but that's only because they wouldn't need to. The production of alcohol would quickly become a cash cow for the Christian minority, who were permitted to produce it under Islamic law and have made a brisk trade of the sale of alcoholic beverages to their Muslim countrymen throughout history. The primary sites for the production and sale of alcoholic beverages would be monasteries, which are celebrated in Islamic poetry with almost exactly the same terms applied to the tavern in English language poetry. Contrary to popular belief, Islamic proscriptions against the consumption of alcohol have never been an effective barrier to Muslims getting drunk.

Ditto for pork. Christians are allowed to raise pig for their own purposes. Pork generally had less of a draw for the faithful, but where beef and other meats were scarce it would serve in a pinch. Remember, it's not like Muslims burst into flames if they eat pork. In Scandinavia, I could see deer, reindeer, bear, and other game meat eventually becoming associated with the Muslim diet.

As far as the jizya goes, there were generally exemptions for those who could not afford to pay it. At times, Islamic rulers treated minority communities as their own personal ATMs and would make a withdrawal whenever they wanted to go on campaign, but otherwise did not collect on a regular basis. I'm not sure what the tax burdens were like in Medieval Europe, but it doesn't seem to me that the jizya differed in any way (and, in fact, Muslims would theoretically pay as much if not more in taxes, particularly if they were Shiite).

Leo all that is very well, the problem are that the benefit of beer and cider are in everyday use, not in getting drunk once in a while, the reason I mention "hvidtøl" is because it was a example of a very weak everyday beer, it and it's equalants in other north European countries had a low enough alcohol content and was easy to brew yourself* that it could be used in every meal and by children witout getting drunk (when I was child it was mostly seen as a child beer), while at the same ensuring a clean source of beverage. Muslims are unlikely to use it in their daily day declaring it haram, while when they break the no alcohol rule, it will likely be stronger stuff, which mean that most of their daily beverage will still be water.

To the pig thing, yes Muslim eats pigs in emergencies, the problem is that we easily can have times lean without being a emergency, imagine a bad harvest while people don't starve they cut down on the foodstuff, with the lower intake of food a few womens spontane abort fetuses and a few children are dies of diseases because of diets. Business as usual, the problem are that Muslim children are hit worse than Christian ones, not by much but enough to that it more than make up for the jizya and conversions. Beside to the whole eat pigs in emergencies, I doubt they're going to be sold on any large scale when both Christians and Muslims are hit by famine.

*one of the primay point behind the light beer was that everyone brewed it themself.

[Guerrilla Republik]

Leo all that is very well, the problem are that the benefit of beer and cider are in everyday use, not in getting drunk once in a while, the reason I mention "hvidtøl" is because it was a example of a very weak everyday beer, it and it's equalants in other north European countries had a low enough alcohol content and was easy to brew yourself* that it could be used in every meal and by children witout getting drunk (when I was child it was mostly seen as a child beer), while at the same ensuring a clean source of beverage. Muslims are unlikely to use it in their daily day declaring it haram, while when they break the no alcohol rule, it will likely be stronger stuff, which mean that most of their daily beverage will still be water.

To the pig thing, yes Muslim eats pigs in emergencies, the problem is that we easily can have times lean without being a emergency, imagine a bad harvest while people don't starve they cut down on the foodstuff, with the lower intake of food a few womens spontane abort fetuses and a few children are dies of diseases because of diets. Business as usual, the problem are that Muslim children are hit worse than Christian ones, not by much but enough to that it more than make up for the jizya and conversions. Beside to the whole eat pigs in emergencies, I doubt they're going to be sold on any large scale when both Christians and Muslims are hit by famine.

*one of the primay point behind the light beer was that everyone brewed it themself.

Well, tolerant sects might allow weak spirits like that, but ban heavy beers. Pious Muslims would just boil their water.

[MNP]

Well, tolerant sects might allow weak spirits like that, but ban heavy beers. Pious Muslims would just boil their water.
Depending on the PoD could we get a "it's not really alcohol if you don't get drunk" kind of situation.

[charl]

I'm pretty sure the Koran says that any fermented drink is forbidden, no matter alcohol content. It was written before you could measure such things after all.

[Nikephoros]

I'm pretty sure the Koran says that any fermented drink is forbidden, no matter alcohol content. It was written before you could measure such things after all.

There is somewhere, I can't remember (A Hadith?) that made an exception for say Date Alcohol (Date Palm). As I don't know much about Islam, I'll leave that to others.

[Guerrilla Republik]

I'm pretty sure the Koran says that any fermented drink is forbidden, no matter alcohol content. It was written before you could measure such things after all.

Khalid bin Walid once took a bath in alcohol, and came out looking and feeling quite fresh. When the Caliph Umar got whiff of this he heavily reprimanded him. This was also one of the causes that made Umar relieve Khalid of his dutied as Generalissimo of Muslim armies, along with the fact that Umar did not want all the victories abscribed to Khalid but to Allah instead.

Goes to show the ban on alcohol in Islam.

[charl]

Khalid bin Walid once took a bath in alcohol, and came out looking and feeling quite fresh. When the Caliph Umar got whiff of this he heavily reprimanded him. This was also one of the causes that made Umar relieve Khalid of his dutied as Generalissimo of Muslim armies, along with the fact that Umar did not want all the victories abscribed to Khalid but to Allah instead.

Goes to show the ban on alcohol in Islam.

The Koran also promises that heaven will contain rivers of the finest wine. One would think god would maintain sobriety rules in his personal kingdom if he considers it so immoral, but apparently not. I'm guessing there is a reason for this. Any Koranic scholar who could clarify?

[Nikephoros]

I don't think alcohol will be a problem. Islam will evolve to not ban alcohol or pork. I seriously doubt that Muslims will sacrifice power for religious reasons.

[Guerrilla Republik]

The Koran also promises that heaven will contain rivers of the finest wine. One would think god would maintain sobriety rules in his personal kingdom if he considers it so immoral, but apparently not. I'm guessing there is a reason for this. Any Koranic scholar who could clarify?

Hadith says that this wine is non-alcoholic. So it has the taste and sweetness but not the harmful intoxicating effects

I don't think alcohol will be a problem. Islam will evolve to not ban alcohol or pork. I seriously doubt that Muslims will sacrifice power for religious reasons.

Early Islamic conquests were heavy on the traditional example set down by the Caliphs and the Prophet. I seriously doubt that pork and alcohol will be such deal killers. Lots of OTL places that relied on pork gave it up, and alcohol as well.

[Keenir]

Well, tolerant sects might allow weak spirits like that, but ban heavy beers.

*nods* not sure if it was The Prophet (pbuh) or the Noble Quran that said it, but there's this:
Do not drink to excess. Do not drink to cloud your vision.

[Leo Caesius]

Khalid bin Walid once took a bath in alcohol, and came out looking and feeling quite fresh. When the Caliph Umar got whiff of this he heavily reprimanded him. This was also one of the causes that made Umar relieve Khalid of his dutied as Generalissimo of Muslim armies, along with the fact that Umar did not want all the victories abscribed to Khalid but to Allah instead.

Goes to show the ban on alcohol in Islam.That doesn't sound like an especially sahih hadith, considering that the Arabs wouldn't distill pure ethanol for another two centuries. If we're talking about wine then that's another matter.

[Guerrilla Republik]

That doesn't sound like an especially sahih hadith, considering that the Arabs wouldn't distill pure ethanol for another two centuries. If we're talking about wine then that's another matter.

Its a well known story. Calling it a hadith was my mistake, since hadith is what the Prophet says. Everywhere I look it says "Alchohol substances"

[Leo Caesius]

Its a well known story. Calling it a hadith was my mistake, since hadith is what the Prophet says.And does, of course. It doesn't have to be his words.

Everywhere I look it says "Alchohol substances"Well, the root has to do with distilled substances (like kohl, which comes from the same root) and since ethanol would not be distilled in pure form for another two centuries it would be anachronistic to assume that he was bathing in pure alcohol. Far more likely he was bathing in perfume, which was also distilled according to a similar process and had been for at least two millennia. Perhaps bathing in perfume wasn't considered to be appropriate for a warrior. I doubt very much that he was bathing in wine or beer.

[Guerrilla Republik]

And does, of course. It doesn't have to be his words.

Well, the root has to do with distilled substances (like kohl, which comes from the same root) and since ethanol would not be distilled in pure form for another two centuries it would be anachronistic to assume that he was bathing in pure alcohol. Far more likely he was bathing in perfume, which was also distilled according to a similar process and had been for at least two millennia. Perhaps bathing in perfume wasn't considered to be appropriate for a warrior. I doubt very much that he was bathing in wine or beer.

The reason Umar reprimanded him was because of the use of alcohol. Khalid made it quite clear that he thought the ban on alcohol was being taken too far.

[truth is life]

Well, the root has to do with distilled substances (like kohl, which comes from the same root) and since ethanol would not be distilled in pure form for another two centuries it would be anachronistic to assume that he was bathing in pure alcohol. Far more likely he was bathing in perfume, which was also distilled according to a similar process and had been for at least two millennia. Perhaps bathing in perfume wasn't considered to be appropriate for a warrior. I doubt very much that he was bathing in wine or beer.

Now I'm suddenly getting the funny image of an Arab warrior-king bathing in beer...

[Leo Caesius]

The reason Umar reprimanded him was because of the use of alcohol. Khalid made it quite clear that he thought the ban on alcohol was being taken too far.What's the source of this story? As I said, it's highly anachronistic.

[Guerrilla Republik]

What's the source of this story? As I said, it's highly anachronistic.

Its all over the net, type in Khalid bin Walid alcohol bath. I originally found out about it from a book in my collection titled the Righteous Caliphate, translated from Urdu.

[Leo Caesius]

Its all over the net, type in Khalid bin Walid alcohol bath. I originally found out about it from a book in my collection titled the Righteous Caliphate, translated from Urdu.I did look all over the net, but the only reference I could find was to a popular book published in Rawalpindi in 1970. There doesn't appear to be any authentic classical source for the story. Are you sure we're not dealing with some sort of folktale?

[Guerrilla Republik]

I did look all over the net, but the only reference I could find was to a popular book published in Rawalpindi in 1970. There doesn't appear to be any authentic classical source for the story. Are you sure we're not dealing with some sort of folktale?

I dont think there is any way to make sure:confused:

[MNP]

Folktale or not, the point remains that there seems to be no way to get around the alcohol thing for Muslims other than simply ignoring it. Which again, means full European conversion is going to suffer something of a setback at least in an early period when access to alternatives was severely restricted.

[Leo Caesius]

Folktale or not, the point remains that there seems to be no way to get around the alcohol thing for Muslims other than simply ignoring it. Which again, means full European conversion is going to suffer something of a setback at least in an early period when access to alternatives was severely restricted.I'm not sure if that's necessarily a sound conclusion, especially since the tale itself is anachronistic unless we assume that we're dealing with perfume and not alcohol.

I found another account in which Umar made Khalid remove a silk shirt because Muslims were prohibited from wearing silk. This seems to be something of a trope.

[Guerrilla Republik]

I'm not sure if that's necessarily a sound conclusion, especially since the tale itself is anachronistic unless we assume that we're dealing with perfume and not alcohol.

I found another account in which Umar made Khalid remove a silk shirt because Muslims were prohibited from wearing silk. This seems to be something of a trope.

Muslim Men aren't allowed to wear silk or gold. Women can.

[Leo Caesius]

Muslim Men aren't allowed to wear silk or gold. Women can.Yes, that's what I meant. The trope seems to be that Khalid does something that only women should do (bathe in perfume, wear silk) and Umar upbraids him for it.

Then, at some later point, the story of bathing in perfume was reinterpreted in light of the ban against alcohol.

[Guerrilla Republik]

Yes, that's what I meant. The trope seems to be that Khalid does something that only women should do (bathe in perfume, wear silk) and Umar upbraids him for it.

Then, at some later point, the story of bathing in perfume was reinterpreted in light of the ban against alcohol.

I doubt the Khalif would want his star general being effeminate :D

[Keenir]

I doubt the Khalif would want his star general being effeminate :D

Aisha, niece of the Prophet (pbuh), led armies into battle.

[Nikephoros]

Aisha, niece of the Prophet (pbuh), led armies into battle.

and failed. Miserably.

[Guerrilla Republik]

Aisha, niece of the Prophet (pbuh), led armies into battle.

Thats different. A man being perceived as effeminate in those days usually meant he was gay, and that was extremely frowned upon. In the face of the Byzantines and Persians the propaganda of it would be that Khalid is the epitome of manliness, with a wang longer than the spears of the Romans :D

[truth is life]

Muslim Men aren't allowed to wear silk or gold. Women can.

I'm pretty sure the Ottoman Sultans, the last Caliphs, did that. Didn't they?

[Keenir]

In the face of the Byzantines and Persians the propaganda of it would be that Khalid is the epitome of manliness, with a wang longer than the spears of the Romans :D

than the ancient Greeks - their troops carried longer javelin-spears. ;)

so Khalid wore silks to keep other men from spontaneously combusting out of jealousy at Khalid's manliness?
:D

[Hendryk]

Note, though, that the Hanafi school specifically prohibits donkey and horse meat, as well, but from personal experience I can tell you that both of these substances are fairly easy to find in Egypt.
Well, in the Maghreb it's fairly common to eat dry sausage made from donkey meat, so it doesn't look like many people care about this specific taboo.

Anyway, I've noticed this before: whenever we speculate about what a Muslim Europe would look like, we get sidetracked into endless discussions on the minutiae of dietary laws. But in OTL Islam has successfully taken root in regions ranking from the equatorial Indonesian archipelago to the cold steppes of Central Asia and everything in between, including the European climes of the Iberian peninsula and the Balkans. In other words history shows that what Muslims can't eat or drink (in theory) isn't much of a factor.

I think there are more interesting questions to focus on, such as social structures, politics, literacy, art, you name it. For example in the high middle ages as Europe knew them in OTL, the Church pretty much had a monopoly on literate men, which it used to spread its influence; it's hard to go against the wishes of the Church when all the people filling your paperwork are members of the clergy. In a Muslim Europe lay literacy would probably be much more widespread.

[Ridwan Asher]

Given that Islam has developed differently in different parts of the world, how might European Islam develop, would it become the most 'liberal' version,
similar to how Europe is overall the most liberal Christian region, or would it become conservative or something in between?

Would Islam as we understand it even continue to exist, that is to say might European Islam itself change to such a degree that it's in many ways
a separate religion, similar to how Christians view Mormonism?

Replace "liberal" with "heterodox", plz, so it'd be more valid to the context....

I don't think it's anything near a given to have Islamic Europe develop a brand of Islam that is an Islamic analogue of Mormonism. However cultural adaptation will certainly contribute to naturalization of Islam in the region, much like what happened with Islam in Indonesia IOTL. Maybe we can see Germanic muslims that retain some of pagan traditions and rituals but mixing Islamic prayings from Qur'anic verses into them, basically Germanic version of kejawens.....

[The Nameless One]

I'm really amazed at the way how everyone is seriously discussing what to do with alcohol and pork, as if Muslims are alien organisms that melt when exposed to either. (Also, don't let them eat after 12, especially during Ramadan!)

The Ottoman Empire already had an answer to this - the heterodox and liberal Bektashi order was mostly made up of ex-christian citizens, and they had no problem with eating pork or drinking alcohol. Actually, Muslims in the Balkans are all generally open to these practices, yet they are still comfortable with their Muslim identity.

IMHO, an Islamic Europe would be composed of people more or less like Balkan Muslims or Bektashis today, only even more open-minded. I'm guessing an Islamic Europe can maintain the unity of the Roman world better than what happened in OTL, taking full advantage of the "Islamic golden ages."

There would be a split later on, roughly along the Ottoman/Byzantine border, if one half of this world chose dogmatism over an approach based on reason and logic, later on.

[Spike Torch]

For a European Islam to thrive and spread it would need to demonstrate to a critical mass of the ruling classes in the various nations and regions that it could be useful to them in consolidating their power. They would not be so convinced by moral arguments as by efficiency.

If that means that Islam needs to centralise for instance to outmanoeuvre the early Christian church then I'm sure it would, Christianity only really became centralised in order to build up the temporal power of church leaders and the nobles close to them.

Maybe we would see a race to centralise and spread between Islamic Byzantium and Christian Rome? With Islam spreading via the Balkans and Eastern Europe up through north Germany to the Low Countries, and a centralised Christianity spreading up through France and the Alpine areas? With an Islamic "pope" emperor versus Christian Pope.

Outlying areas like Britain, Ireland and Scandinavia would see the arrival of competing missionaries desperately fighting to convert the most local warlords.

Maybe the space would emerge for northern paganism to pull off the same trick as the Mediterranean variety and actually centralise around a common hierarchy that could fight off divided Christian and Islamic attempts at conversion leading to a three way battle.

[Ridwan Asher]

I'm really amazed at the way how everyone is seriously discussing what to do with alcohol and pork, as if Muslims are alien organisms that melt when exposed to either. (Also, don't let them eat after 12, especially during Ramadan!)

The Ottoman Empire already had an answer to this - the heterodox and liberal Bektashi order was mostly made up of ex-christian citizens, and they had no problem with eating pork or drinking alcohol. Actually, Muslims in the Balkans are all generally open to these practices, yet they are still comfortable with their Muslim identity.

IMHO, an Islamic Europe would be composed of people more or less like Balkan Muslims or Bektashis today, only even more open-minded. I'm guessing an Islamic Europe can maintain the unity of the Roman world better than what happened in OTL, taking full advantage of the "Islamic golden ages."

There would be a split later on, roughly along the Ottoman/Byzantine border, if one half of this world chose dogmatism over an approach based on reason and logic, later on.

What do you mean by "open-minded" ? Do you actually mean "acculturative" ?

There is simply no reason to say Islamic Europe will be inevitably more logical thinking than other Islamic region. Not to say that it can't happen, but mind to not operate your thinking based on baseless assumption that Europe is the default starting point for liberalism to take off in any TL. Egalitarianism is not the monopoly of certain Germanic groups only, you know....

Certainly that naturalization of Islam will occur in Europe if it goes Islam. Much like Indonesia, the European muslims will generally retain rather many of their pre-Islam traditions and cultures, and heterodoxies will spring up indeed. If in some cases would include retaining pork for diet than that's what will happen. At least most of the regions though that have alternative to pork available will replace pork with it. Note that in almost everywhere in, if not virtually all of muslim parts of Indonesia, pork has been abandoned.

There is more than just diet problem to deal with in order to keep Islamization advancing though. The main thing is to provide economic incentive to convert to Islam. And on this particular thing the patterns of spreading of Islam will be determined with. The more a certain European region depended on trade with muslims to maintain their wealth and prestige, the more susceptible it will be for Islamization. Muslims simply have to gain largely uncontested dominance over the important veins of European trade network to smoothening Islamization in Europe. Done with it, and diet is not a problem anymore.....

[Ridwan Asher]

Maybe we would see a race to centralise and spread between Islamic Byzantium and Christian Rome? With Islam spreading via the Balkans and Eastern Europe up through north Germany to the Low Countries, and a centralised Christianity spreading up through France and the Alpine areas? With an Islamic "pope" emperor versus Christian Pope.

Isn't the OP looking for at least overwhelmingly majority Europe Islamic ?

Also, just to nitpick. Caliphs are no popes, period. But a Caliph can also be a Caesar. Muslim Turks could, so why wouldn't muslim Hellens be able to as well ?

[Spike Torch]

Isn't the OP looking for at least overwhelmingly majority Europe Islamic ?

Also, just to nitpick. Caliphs are no popes, period. But a Caliph can also be a Caesar. Muslim Turks could, so why wouldn't muslim Hellens be able to as well ?

I'm showing one way in which that might happen:confused: Of course I did not go into great detail about how that would end up, just laying the possible groundwork - it goes without saying that a possible outcome of what I posted would be that Islam would win, by out converting enough societies eventually.

No Caliphs are not popes but that's not what I said.

[Ridwan Asher]

I'm showing one way in which that might happen:confused: Of course I did not go into great detail about how that would end up, just laying the possible groundwork - it goes without saying that a possible outcome of what I posted would be that Islam would win, by out converting enough societies eventually.

No Caliphs are not popes but that's not what I said.

Sorry, I wasn't to patient apparently.... :o But personally it's rather a pet peeve of mine to see anything resembling suggestion that there is a default equivalent of Pope in Islam.... So, I was at fault as well....:o Still, never really like seeing any unit being viewed by the mindset "color" of that of other unit's, unless it is deliberately to speculate the said other unit's subjective interpretation of the former....