The Dagda and the three Saints

[boynamedsue]

Following on from the pagan Ireland thread, here's a teaser for a possible new timeline

The Dagda and the three Saints

Well, during the time Lóegairos maqui Néilli was the big man at Tara, and so in charge of all holy rites and rituals a body would associate with that position, there came a ship to Ireland.


And the ship was as fast a thing as you’d want to see: So fast it was, that it jumped from the top of one wave to the next without hardly getting wet.
And the ship was as big a thing as you’d want to see: So big it was, that the sea monsters and leviathans would leap out of its way, for fear of getting crushed like a dog by a chariot.
And the ship was as rich a thing as you’d want to see: So rich it was, that its hull was made of gold, its ropes were wound from silver wire, and its cess buckets were cut from giant emeralds and rubies.

Sure, it was a wonderful ship altogether! For as well as all this it had no need for sails, it had just three great golden crosses to make it go so awful fast.

As you’re after knowing about this wonderful ship, it’ll not surprise you at all when I tell you that it took it just the time it takes to boil three eggs to come across the sea from Britain. Though to this day, nobody knows if the eggs were boiled one after the other, or all at the same time.

************************************************** ******************************************


Well, when this boat landed at Lùghos, three gods got off it, eating their boiled eggs. But mark you now, these were not gods of Ireland, they were gods of the Christians, which are called Saints.

The first of them was called Saint Catroicos, or Patricius to his countrymen. He had the power over snakes.
The second of them was called Saint Jesus. He had the power over water.
The third of them was called Saint Devil. He had the power over fire.

Now, the Saints wanted the Irish to worship them instead of the Tuatha Dea Dananna, so they got to doing all kinds of magic to make everybody forsake their own gods.

Saint Catroicos did three unruly acts, which were: Chasing away the snakes from Ireland, so they could not give advice to our magicians. Stealing the voice of the druid Cartinos, by making shamrocks grow out of his mouth. Tempting noblewomen to wed Saint Jesus, despite him being impotent due to a spear wound.

Saint Jesus did three acts of bribery. He promised free wine to those who worshipped him, and fulfilled his promise by turning his urine into wine. He brought back to life the daughter of the Dovinias after she was sacrificed to Brigita. He walked across Lough Neagh to bring a fish dinner to the Avi Neill.

Saint devil did three acts of temptation and extortion. He offered the world to the Cruithne. He threatened to burn the men of Kil Erani. He offered the throne of Tara to Aillilos Macqui Nathi.

************************************************** **********************************************


One day the Dagda sickened of seeing these saints and their impious ways, and so he disguised himself as an old man and went to visit their church at Armagh. They were up the front of the church ranting and cutting bits of their flesh off to feed their hungry flock. The Christians were quite wild for it and were running around in the blood of Saint Jesus and rutting like dogs while they fought over the scraps of their gods’ bodies.


The Dagda stood quietly at the back of the church for a few minutes, disgusted by the ritual. Then Saint Devil noticed him.

‘You at the back,’ Said the great horned man. ‘Why are you not joining in the mass?’

For mass is what the Christians call their festival.

‘Oh, no.’ Said the Dagda. ‘I was just wondering to myself which of you saints was the stupidest and most pathetic. I doubt any one of you could even kill an old man like me.’

The gods began to rage at the old man, but he stilled them with a wave of his hand.

‘Now, I’ve decided. Catroicos, you are the most pathetic.’

Enraged, Catroicus used all his powers to conjure a plague of ten thousand snakes, who crawled towards the Dagda, as the Christians screamed in fear.

‘Devil, you are the next most pathetic.’

Saint Devil shrieked with rage and poured fire towards the Dagda, but there were so many snakes in the way that he was as safe as a swaddled babe. The furious saint used up all his powers, but to no avail, all he’d done was make a bonfire of Catroicos’ snakes.

‘And then it is you Jesus, a little stronger than your daft wee buddies, but an impotent fool nonetheless.’

So Jesus too rose to Dagda’s bait and sent a torrent of water which put out the snakefire nicely.

Dagda laughed and stepped back into his own appearance, a great golden beautiful naked man, and he said to the Christian gods.

‘Now Saints, I’ll show you how you should have done it.’

First he sent water to put out Saint Devil’s fire. Then he sent snakes to kill Saint Jesus’ power in the water. Then he sent fire to burn Catroicos like a snake.

So after this was seen by everyone, all but the stupidest Christians came back to the true religion, and the Saints’ bodies were thrown in a pit in Armagh and forgotten, apart from a hidden stone which bears the mark of a fish, a flame and a snake so the druids can find the place of the three gods’ death.

And that is why even today, children play snake, fire, water to decide who gets the biggest apple or goes first in the game of leaping.

From Book of Bards. Cerca 1250.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I like the story :D. Keep it up.

[boynamedsue]

I like the story :D. Keep it up.

Thanks mate, I was going for the Mabibogion as told by Dougal from Father Ted. I think it works quite well. :)

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Will this new reformed Polytheism of Ireland develop into a competitive prostelytizing religion like Christianity, or will it be to Ireland what Shinto is to Japan?

[Mikey]

What are the hand gestures for snake-water-fire?

[Flocculencio]

Fifty points for excellent pastiche, to be sure :D

[boynamedsue]

What are the hand gestures for snake-water-fire?

snake is like scissors, but you move your arm after throwing the sign.
Water is flat hand like paper.
Fire is spread fingers, with the thumb erect.


Fifty points for excellent pastiche, to be sure :D


It's not me pastichin guv, it's the bards.



Will this new reformed Polytheism of Ireland develop into a competitive prostelytizing religion like Christianity, or will it be to Ireland what Shinto is to Japan?



More like Shinto, but it will not be 100% specific to Ireland. It will have a tendency to throw off cults based on its gods, and some of them will travel. The story above was written by a Dagda cultist who probably only worships the Dagda, so (not having a very solid grip of Christian theology) considers himself more monotheistic than the Christians.

[kellineil]

I like it, especially the misrepresentation of Christianity. It's typical of how one religion often describes the beliefs of another

[TheDarkMessiah]

Very good! I hope you do some more BNS. I've been reading up a bit on the Tuatha of late, so this was a pleasant find. Subscribed :D

[Hendryk]

Nice opening. This will have consequences for the rest of Europe as well.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

More like Shinto, but it will not be 100% specific to Ireland. It will have a tendency to throw off cults based on its gods, and some of them will travel. The story above was written by a Dagda cultist who probably only worships the Dagda, so (not having a very solid grip of Christian theology) considers himself more monotheistic than the Christians.

Come to think of it, it might help the long-term survival of this religion if there were other countries than Ireland that were practicing it. Otherwise, the Christian kingdoms of the continent, if not from Britain, were to launch crusades if Christian missionary work was to prove a failure.

[Geekhis Khan]

Bloody brilliant, boyo! :D

Bring us another round, aye?

[boynamedsue]

I like it, especially the misrepresentation of Christianity. It's typical of how one religion often describes the beliefs of another

What do you mean misrepresentation?

Wait a minute! Maybe that's why they chucked me out of Church on Sunday...

[EvolvedSaurian]

I like it. I'd really like to know more about this religion(s?) is set up and what some of the beliefs are... what it's called, for that matter.

[boynamedsue]

In 399 AD, a warband of 31 Irishmen raided a villa at Banna Venta Berniae, which now lies under the sand dunes of Morecambe bay. Their choice of location for the raid was intelligent: The nearby Roman fort of Medibgo had recently been denuded of its garrison to strengthen the defences at Hadrian’s wall, which had been breached by Picts for three consecutive summers. In addition, the civilian Militia of nearby Galacum(1) would be unlikely to face a savage Irish warband just to defend one villa, so there would be time for the raiders to conduct a thorough search for valuables, and perhaps have a little fun with the local women.

In the confusion of the attack, most of the wealthy Romano-British family managed to escape the raiders. However, Maximus Cereticus Patricius, the 13 year old son of the villa’s owner, Flavius Cereticus Diaconus, was captured and taken as a slave to Lughòs (2) in Ireland, heartland of the emerging power of the Connachta tribe. During his 12 year captivity, Patricius, known to the Irish as Catroicos, served initially in menial tasks but later became a translator and scribe for Niallos Maqui Eochadi, the Chief of the Connachta confederation.

Between 403 and 407, a rebellious general, Flavius Claudius Constantinus, was de facto dictator of Britain south of Hadrian’s wall. Fearing an attack from Stilicho, the Vandal general who maintained the Emperor Honorius on the throne, Constantinus adopted a policy of bribery and alliances with Irish and Pictish leaders, in hope of securing his Western and Northern flanks. This involved protracted negotiations with Niallos, conducted through the Latin speaking translator, Patricius. During these talks, it was agreed that Constantinus would send Niallos nine high ranking hostages to guarantee timely payment of his annual stipend.

When, in 406, the Burgundians, Vandals, Alans and Suebes crossed the Rhine into Gallia, Constantinus saw an opportunity to make himself Emperor of the West. Stripping Britain of all its legions, and trusting that his strategic agreements with the Celtic barbarians would hold, he crossed into Gallia, never to return.

Initially this plan of defence worked, with the civic and tribal militias more than sufficient to deal with the comparatively innocuous Saxon and Frisian raids along the east coast. After Constantinus’ departure, Britain was increasingly governed by a council of Britsh Dux, Magistrati and Praefecti. As these offices were often related to tribal positions, the representative of the Brigantes, Coelius f. Tegmanius, quickly gained preeminence on the council. The Brigantes had a much larger territory and population than the other tribes, so, by 412, Coelius had become effective ruler of Britain from the Clyde and Forth to the Mersey and the Calder.

Not long after Constantinus’ death in 411, British bards bad begun to sing of Brenno’ Coelio’, King Coelius. Coelius did little to dissuade them.

In 412, one of the sons of Niallos was sailing to Lugvalium (3) to enter into diplomatic negotiations with Coelius, when his boat was wrecked by a storm in the Solway firth. The only survivor was Patricius, who survived by clinging to an empty water barrel over a whole night. When he was washed ashore, he found himself on a stretch of coastline not 50 miles from his home. Incredulous that his ordeal was over, he gave thanks to God for his deliverance and vowed to become a priest. He had chosen the road that would lead to his martyrdom.

The P.O.D is that Patricius’ Irish captors recognize the value of a trilingual literate slave, and instead of setting him to menial work, they use his gifts in their diplomacy with Roman Britain. The nature of Pat’s escape is also different, an act of divine intervention, rather than OTL’s cunning escape. A fundamentalist is born…:)

10 points if you can identify all the semi-legendary/historical figures mentioned.

(1) Lancaster
(2) Louth
(3) Carlisle

[boynamedsue]

I like it. I'd really like to know more about this religion(s?) is set up and what some of the beliefs are... what it's called, for that matter.

Initially it won't have a name, it'll just be "our religion". I need to do a little bit of linguistic work to get its later name (not easy when it means I have to completely change the development of a language in which I can only say the phrases "Kiss my Arse" and "our day will come").

The beliefs evolve, but I'll deal with them more fully in a couple of days. One interesting fact is that 7th century Christian sources talk about magicians with a belief in reincarnation in contemporary Ireland!

Now that, my friend, is a gift from history... :D

[boynamedsue]

Nice opening. This will have consequences for the rest of Europe as well.

Massive butterflies as we enter the 6th century, by the 7th the whole place will be a mess!

It's a strange feeling to know that you've killed Charlemagne... a thousand generations of *French schoolkids will love me!

[TheDarkMessiah]

Great new chapter.

The good thing about such a POD is that the differences seen in society will be even more stark an interesting than a usual POD, not to mention it is focusing on a subject which really interests me.

As for recognising the names, I got Lughòs, probably named in honour of the Tuatha, Lugh. Probably a few others I can spot but i'll let other people do that since i'm lazy :p

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

So, "Old King Cole" or "Coel Hen" was a Brigantes chief?!

[Jaded_Railman]

I'm interested on this.

What sources of information do you have about Ireland's pagan religion? I know not much survives and a great deal of our 'understanding' comes from looking at other Celtic religions that we have some more information about.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Initially it won't have a name, it'll just be "our religion". I need to do a little bit of linguistic work to get its later name (not easy when it means I have to completely change the development of a language in which I can only say the phrases "Kiss my Arse" and "our day will come").

You're a fan as well then?


The beliefs evolve, but I'll deal with them more fully in a couple of days. One interesting fact is that 7th century Christian sources talk about magicians with a belief in reincarnation in contemporary Ireland!

Now that, my friend, is a gift from history... :D


Reincarnation was pretty much a pan-Celtic belief, with the Irish version involving Tir na Nog (Land of Youth, the Otherworld) as a sort of parallel life.

I'm interested on this.

What sources of information do you have about Ireland's pagan religion? I know not much survives and a great deal of our 'understanding' comes from looking at other Celtic religions that we have some more information about.

Actually, we know a great deal about Irish religion, from the various Cycles that were written down. The bad part of this is that the folks doing the writing were, by and large, Christian monks, who had a stake in making the old ways look bad.

[Jaded_Railman]

Actually, we know a great deal about Irish religion, from the various Cycles that were written down. The bad part of this is that the folks doing the writing were, by and large, Christian monks, who had a stake in making the old ways look bad.

Hence me saying little has survived :p

Honestly the Christian versions of Irish folklore must look, by comparison, like the description of Christianity in the OP.

[boynamedsue]

As for recognising the names, I got Lughòs, probably named in honour of the Tuatha, Lugh. Probably a few others I can spot but i'll let other people do that since i'm lazy :p


Spot on. And thanks for saying nice things, but don't worry there's plenty of time for it to go wrong.



What sources of information do you have about Ireland's pagan religion? I know not much survives and a great deal of our 'understanding' comes from looking at other Celtic religions that we have some more information about.



I'm really glad you're interested, it makes a change from us fighting about politics. :)

There's tons of Christian sources, as Evolved Saurian said. But the problem is that some of it might only be as accurate as the story I wrote at the start is about Christianity. A very good source is the collection of Welsh myths in works like the Mabinogion, the Welsh were more sure of their Christian identity, so allowed blatantly pagan elements of their stories to be recorded without propaganda spin. Perhaps they were even unaware that their beliefs were pagan.



So, "Old King Cole" or "Coel Hen" was a Brigantes chief?!


Well done... he was in my story. The post Roman period is the darkest part of the dark ages in Britain. However, we can be pretty sure there was a post Roman leader in Northern Britain called Coelius. Certain (speculative) authors suggest that he was the last Roman commander at York, but it is clear that in that period a retribalisation of Britain was occuring. I believe him to be a British tribal leader for the following (slightly complicated) reason:

In one Welsh genealogy his father is named as Tegfan, in another as Tegman. This name is clearly Celtic, and is preserved in two versions. The first version shows the same (m > f) sound change which occurs in the change Dumonia > Defnas and Elmetae > Elfed. That phonetic change is dated between 450 > 550 AD, so the fact that the older version is recorded suggests to me that the name is genuine, and Coel Hen was very much a British rather than Romano-British or Roman figure.



You're a fan as well then?



What of the Pogues or of arsekissing? :)


The beliefs evolve, but I'll deal with them more fully in a couple of days. One interesting fact is that 7th century Christian sources talk about magicians with a belief in reincarnation in contemporary Ireland!

Now that, my friend, is a gift from history... :D
Reincarnation was pretty much a pan-Celtic belief, with the Irish version involving Tir na Nog (Land of Youth, the Otherworld) as a sort of parallel life.



The source I'm thinking of specifically mentions humans reincarnating as different types of bird... how far are they from arriving at the theory of karma?

[EvolvedSaurian]

Hence me saying little has survived :p

Honestly the Christian versions of Irish folklore must look, by comparison, like the description of Christianity in the OP.

Alright, you make a good point there.

What of the Pogues or of arsekissing? :)

Yes.

The source I'm thinking of specifically mentions humans reincarnating as different types of bird... how far are they from arriving at the theory of karma?

Huh, I'd only ever heard of reincarnation from human to human, usually within family lines. Karma... Well, pretty far, I think.

[boynamedsue]

Patricius found Britain much changed from the Province he had left 13 years before.

The Roman legions had abandoned the wall of Hadrian, along with the rest of Britain. It was now a lightly garrisoned line of demarcation, rather than the formidable military complex of forts and depots he had known in his childhood. The real defenders of the north were now Coelius' client tribes between the two walls, especially the Godotanni.

Trade links with Europe had weakened, due to the chaos in Gallia, where Franks, Vandals and Burgundians were fighting the desperate efforts of Honorius to maintain his empire whole. Foreign goods were becoming scarcer, and wine was now a luxury to all but the richest citizens of Eboracum and Lugvalium. The cities were shabbier than he remembered: what would once have been replaced was repaired. New buildings that would have been built in stone, were now built in wood.

Of course, it was just until things settled down on the continent, The Britons were sure that things would be back to normal in no time at all.

Less travelers came, too, to this distant outpost of the empire; fewer merchants, fewer soldiers and fewer churchmen. The younger foreigners resident in the north (which now seemed to be pronounced The North), made their way back to their homelands and were not replaced by new arrivals. With less foreigners, there was less need for Latin, and even in the towns the language of Rome was rarely heard in the streets, though it remained the language of the educated classes.

Britain had become more, well, British, and with this, old pagan British ways came creeping back.

Patricius, Father Patricius, raged against these practices. The veneration of rocks and stones by supposed Christians, the feeding of house gods (now euphemistically called “house spirits” or “bucci”), the telling of tales about “the fair folk”, who were clearly none but the old gods in half-hearted masque... hardly a single Briton was entirely free of these vestiges of pagan devil-worship.

For six years Patricius threatened hellfire and damnation to backsliders, and built up the church in The North through his talents for persuasion and politics. He was particularly adept at convincing noble widows to marry Christ and join monastic communities. Of course, Christ demanded a significant dowry in such cases.

For all his good work he felt something missing. Through all his years of exile he had longed for his home, and yet he had found it so changed that he felt a stranger there. One midsummer night, he dreamt of Christ the King. A huge beautiful golden man, dressed in the purple of an emperor. He spoke sadly to Patricius.
“Brother Catroicos, why do you now rage at peasants for leaving milk for the bucci, when you once watched in silence as an Irishman was burnt alive to feed false gods?”

The next day Patricius wrote pious letters to all the magistrati of the north, politely requesting funds to allow him to begin the conversion of the Irish. The letters pointedly quoted certain verses of scripture relating to the grave difficulties rich men faced in entering into the kingdom of heaven, and were thoughtfully illustrated with a drawing of a man riding camel, to clarify matters for those who might be unsure as to the exact dimensions of such a beast.

[boynamedsue]

Huh, I'd only ever heard of reincarnation from human to human, usually within family lines. Karma... Well, pretty far, I think.

De Mirabilibus Sacrae Scripturae of Augustinus Hibernicus describes "Magi" in 7th century Ireland who preach reincarnation as birds. But we come back to your initial question, is he misrepresenting pagan beliefs?

I suspect reincarnation as animals was part of belief, at some times amongst some Celtic peoples, basically because of the motifs of rebirth in the mabinogion and Taliesen. Though I wouldn't say it was solid developed doctrine like in India.

[Hendryk]

A fundamentalist is born…:)
We see what you mean, but "fundamentalist" is an anachronistic term. Maybe you should just say a zealot.

[boynamedsue]

We see what you mean, but "fundamentalist" is an anachronistic term. Maybe you should just say a zealot.

Point taken, I couldn't think of the right word when I was posting.

[TheDarkMessiah]

I'm liking your latest little offering.

I really should make an effort to comment more than just "I like" but my knowledge of history is pretty shoddy, considering what site I find myself on...

Nice focus on Paddy though.

[boynamedsue]

From The dialogues of Master Enechuaglasos, cerca 850 AD.

Pupil: Master, look at the fields, the new lambs are born and gamboling, the apples blossom and bud, and the blessed birds of summer have returned to join their brothers, the faithful birds of winter. The spring in Ireland is a true wonder of Danua! How is it that it came to be so beautiful?

Master Enechuaglasos: Moni Croi! What long and difficult answers simple questions often demand!

But a good master must be patient with his pupil, so his learning does not die with him and may in turn be taught to the next generation.

I have this tale from Bivaidonos, who had it from Cartainos, who had it from Murchadaos, who had it from Casanos, who had it from Cunalughos, who had it from Malighnos, who had it from Lugadonnos, who had it from Cunallatos, who had it from Tlachtgaos, who had it from Ivagenios, who had it from Ivos, who had it from the Dagda, who had it from Cerunnos.

When Danua came to Ireland it was entirely waste. There was nothing, not plant, nor bird, nor animal, not so much as the vilest and most despicable of vermin. A barren prospect that all other gods thought not worth their time.

But Danua can see things as they are and as they were and as they will be, so knew that this place would be her beloved country, her chosen land. So she looked about for ways to make it so. After a while she saw a great mountain, and hit upon an idea. She walked up to the mountain and kissed, aroused and seduced it to such an extent that it became a huge raging bull, all white but for its great red ears. This bull was called the White Bull of Tara, because the base of the mountain still exists, and is the Hill of Tara, where our High King is crowned.

Deftly, Our Lady avoided the bulls’ advances as it grew more and more enraged and lustful. Then with a graceful thrust she stabbed it through the heart with her spear. In its agony, the bull ran three times round Ireland, spilling its blood onto the land and its seed into the rivers and lakes. And from its blood sprang all the plants and animals of Ireland, and from its seed came all the freshwater fish of Ireland. Finally the bull collapsed in Connemara, and that land on which it fell did not receive the benefit of its blood and so must be constantly fed with seaweed so aught might grow.

Danua saw the beauty of her island, and was pleased. So she made hundreds of gateways to the otherworld, and invited her Tuatha to come settle here. And that was at the beginning of the world, but still we sacrifice a white bull at the start of Spring, to ensure Ireland’s fertility.

Pupil: But master, where did Danua come from?

Master Enechuaglasos: Though a pupil must ask questions, he must also learn to reflect on his master's answers. Away and ask me no more questions till dusk.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

In seperate thread to this, one which discusses the future of Britain if Boudicca's revolt was successful, I forwarded my opinion that Celtic Polytheism would survive in some form if the Druidic centre in Ynys Mon/Anglesey was not attacked by Suetonius Paulinus. Its my reckoning that the Celts of Britain and Ireland had the closest thing to a coherent and uniform clerical force whose authority in spiritual matters and secular law was recognized and respected by all the tribes in Britain and Ireland. And that a progressive and centralizing element among the Druids in an independent Britain AND Ireland could create a bulwark against possible Christian missionary activity in the centuries ahead.

I'd like to hear your opinion in the matter, Boynamedsue, if you'll indulge it.:)

[EvolvedSaurian]

De Mirabilibus Sacrae Scripturae of Augustinus Hibernicus describes "Magi" in 7th century Ireland who preach reincarnation as birds. But we come back to your initial question, is he misrepresenting pagan beliefs?

I suspect reincarnation as animals was part of belief, at some times amongst some Celtic peoples, basically because of the motifs of rebirth in the mabinogion and Taliesen. Though I wouldn't say it was solid developed doctrine like in India.

I'd imagine you're right, to some extent. Beliefs changed a great deal from tribe to tribe, with deities specifically for that tribe, for landmarks in their territory and that sort. Rather less survives about their more metaphysical beliefs, but I'd imagine that same tribal dissonance applies, that some believed in human or animal or plant or rock or whatever reincarnation, and maybe some didn't beleve in reinacarnation at all.

Anyway, I quite liked these last two sections, very interesting. Was the semi-rebirth of the old ways in Britain as OTL?

[boynamedsue]

In seperate thread to this, one which discusses the future of Britain if Boudicca's revolt was successful, I forwarded my opinion that Celtic Polytheism would survive in some form if the Druidic centre in Ynys Mon/Anglesey was not attacked by Suetonius Paulinus. Its my reckoning that the Celts of Britain and Ireland had the closest thing to a coherent and uniform clerical force whose authority in spiritual matters and secular law was recognized and respected by all the tribes in Britain and Ireland. And that a progressive and centralizing element among the Druids in an independent Britain AND Ireland could create a bulwark against possible Christian missionary activity in the centuries ahead.

I'd like to hear your opinion in the matter, Boynamedsue, if you'll indulge it.:)

The evolution of "the druidry" into an organised, uniform priesthood could have created a bulwark against christianity but it is difficult to see how this would occur unless linked to a new more united secular power. After all, it didn't happen in Gaul.

Another problem is that polytheism is just too damn tolerant! They tended to accept the existance of their enemies gods, and rarely tried to exterminate their worship... even the Romans who otherwise were utter shits.

Monotheism is a very powerful meme, and tends to win its confrontation with almost anything else religious, unless it is an ideology very solidly locked into a powerful state.

My plan is to have Ireland "innoculated" by Christianity between 400-500, developing institutions and beliefs that are sufficiently robust to withstand later confrontations with monotheism.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The evolution of "the druidry" into an organised, uniform priesthood could have created a bulwark against christianity but it is difficult to see how this would occur unless linked to a new more united secular power. After all, it didn't happen in Gaul.

Gaul was divided between different tribal states and confederations before it was conquered. By the 400's, its indigenous culture was quite marginalized and reduced by the time the Emperors had introduced the new ideology of Christianity. It was a bad time for Gaul when Julius Caesar became Proconsul of Cisalpina and Transalpina. Gaul seemed to be on track to centralization.

Another problem is that polytheism is just too damn tolerant! They tended to accept the existance of their enemies gods, and rarely tried to exterminate their worship... even the Romans who otherwise were utter shits.

I'm persuaded that a brand of Polytheism thats espoused by a solid doctrine and/or a centralized clergy could potentially survive anything.

Monotheism is a very powerful meme, and tends to win its confrontation with almost anything else religious, unless it is an ideology very solidly locked into a powerful state.

Rather than because it was Monotheistic, Christianity's success actually lay with its disciplined and organized clergy, and that such men would ostensibly render their services to a heathen sovereign as de facto bureaucrats and secretaries, in exchange for increased power and trust to operate the civil government.

My plan is to have Ireland "innoculated" by Christianity between 400-500, developing institutions and beliefs that are sufficiently robust to withstand later confrontations with monotheism.

So this possibly Henotheistic Cult of Dagda evolves in the face of Christian missionary activity?!

[boynamedsue]

Anyway, I quite liked these last two sections, very interesting. Was the semi-rebirth of the old ways in Britain as OTL?

Difficult to say as far as religion is concerned.

In social terms, there was an incredibly quick recelticisation of politics and language. Old tribal groupings re-emmerged (Dumnoni, Cornovii, Damnonii) and new ones were created. The Romanised south of Britain was probably taken over by a tyrant from more Celtic highland Wales (Vortigern, if that is your real name). Fatally, the division of territory between sons took over from primogeniture, a disease which probably contributed more to the creation of Anglo-Saxon England than anything else.

I suspect that Christianity suffered a crisis after the 406 invasions of Gaul and Constantine's withdrawal of the legions. Romano-British Christianity was isolated, and probably took time to adjust to the new situation, leaving space for overt or covert pagan revivals. Aneirin, along with various saints' lives refer to pagan magicians in the 5th and 6th centuries, but were they part of an organised cultic tradition or "freelancers"?

Paganism probably wasn't dead amongst British-speakers until after the fall of Caer Gwendoleu in the 6th century.

[boynamedsue]

So this possibly Henotheistic Cult of Dagda evolves in the face of Christian missionary activity?!

Initially, you'll have various polytheistic cults... but supremacy will eventually come to one of them. As far as henotheism, Danua would be the one, but I think she's gonna be.... distant.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Initially, you'll have various polytheistic cults... but supremacy will eventually come to one of them. As far as henotheism, Danua would be the one, but I think she's gonna be.... distant.

I guess the important thing is that some kind of organized doctrine emerges from the native British/Irish religious tradition, instead of having to see another scenario where Christianity inevitably takes over (shudders). Even if this one gradually adopts some monotheistic dimensions, at least it won't demonize its Druidic forebears, and faithfully records the myths and legends as part of its core identity. One affect of having a new rival religion to Christianity in northern Europe would be that Jews being persecuted in southern Europe might experience less oppression in Britain, Ireland, and any other country where this religion of Dagda is adopted.

[EvolvedSaurian]

In social terms, there was an incredibly quick recelticisation of politics and language. Old tribal groupings re-emmerged (Dumnoni, Cornovii, Damnonii) and new ones were created. The Romanised south of Britain was probably taken over by a tyrant from more Celtic highland Wales (Vortigern, if that is your real name). Fatally, the division of territory between sons took over from primogeniture, a disease which probably contributed more to the creation of Anglo-Saxon England than anything else.

And the civil wars that resulted from brothers trying to take control of the entirety of the old kingdom.


I suspect that Christianity suffered a crisis after the 406 invasions of Gaul and Constantine's withdrawal of the legions. Romano-British Christianity was isolated, and probably took time to adjust to the new situation, leaving space for overt or covert pagan revivals. Aneirin, along with various saints' lives refer to pagan magicians in the 5th and 6th centuries, but were they part of an organised cultic tradition or "freelancers"?

Paganism probably wasn't dead amongst British-speakers until after the fall of Caer Gwendoleu in the 6th century.


That would make sense, especially as Christianity wasn't likely very entrenched to begin with, as compared with the old ways and the old gods. Lots of old survivals in the new religion, but you already know that.

[Geekhis Khan]

This is genius! :)

It's great to see such a unique TL with such great local flavor.

Consider me subscribed.

[Valdemar II]

Massive butterflies as we enter the 6th century, by the 7th the whole place will be a mess!

It's a strange feeling to know that you've killed Charlemagne... a thousand generations of *French schoolkids will love me!

Except without Charlemagde, there unlikely to be any French or *French.

[Valdemar II]

The evolution of "the druidry" into an organised, uniform priesthood could have created a bulwark against christianity but it is difficult to see how this would occur unless linked to a new more united secular power. After all, it didn't happen in Gaul.

Another problem is that polytheism is just too damn tolerant! They tended to accept the existance of their enemies gods, and rarely tried to exterminate their worship... even the Romans who otherwise were utter shits.

Monotheism is a very powerful meme, and tends to win its confrontation with almost anything else religious, unless it is an ideology very solidly locked into a powerful state.

My plan is to have Ireland "innoculated" by Christianity between 400-500, developing institutions and beliefs that are sufficiently robust to withstand later confrontations with monotheism.

Interesting of coyurse the biggest problem are that it need to spread, if you make the British (or the Anglo-Saxon), Franks, Saxons and Danes adopt this faith I think it will be a strong enough baser to survive permanent. I think you're best of if England are conquered by Anglo-Saxons it will replace the Christians with Pagans, which could adopt the Irish framework down over their own Gods, and they would function as a nice mediator to the contignental Germanic tribes.

[boynamedsue]

Patricius’ mission to Ireland began in the territory of Lóegairos maqui Néilli, son of his deceased former master Neillos of the Nine Hostages. Initially he was welcomed by the Connachta tribal alliance that controlled large territories of the West and Midlands. Using his connections with the local aristocracy, he secured land near Emainos Machai (1), on the edge of the territory of the Uladh.


Christianity already existed in Ireland, especially amongst slaves brought from Britain and Gaul and their descendents. However, it was clearly subordinate to Irish Paganism, especially as the tribal righ (“king” for want of a better word) played an important religious role, and was always the son-in-law or adopted son of a powerful druid or magician. The druid also had an important legal position, entwined with his religious duties. Arbitration of property and land usage disputes usually came down to matters of tradition and legal lore, the only people who had access to this information were a class of druids called Britemanni, who combined their judging with supernatural elements such as reading omens. The ownership of more than one field was determined by the positions of the internal organs of a calf which was born it.


Patricius was aware that converting Ireland would require the submission of this Pagan superstructure to Christianity. From his base in Ardos Machai (2), he sought to create Christian monastic communities which imitated the social structure of Ireland. An elite, comprised of educated literate priests, monks and abbesses, with a menial component below them comprised of illiterate monks and lay brothers. These centres, linked to the seats of powerful nobles, were a direct attempt to usurp the druidic position of keepers of record, using writing, a weapon which the druids did not have at their disposal. Patricius’ writings indicate that this challenge to druidic power did not go unnoticed, the Christians were forbidden from entering the territories of certain Connachta (3) righi by order of local Britemanni.



In 433, the year that Vitalinus Voreticernus ceded Kent to the Saxons, one of Patricius’s aristocratic supporters became the Righ of the Avi Cunogovani tribe. While he had shown considerable restraint in his rhetoric when dealing directly with pagans, “The evangelist of the Gaels” was privately contemptuous of them. Imbued with Patrcius’ righteous zeal, the new Righ’s first official act was to burn the sacred grove at Bailivos. When local druids objected, the warlord, who had been baptized as Séannos, had three of them crucified. Scandalously, local Christian slaves were invited to take part in this sacrilege.


The reaction from the young King of the Connachta, Néillos Maqui Lóegairi was swift and brutal. He marched on the Avi Cunogovani and slaughtered them in battle, down to the last man. What happened next was an indication of how far beyond the pale Séannos’ actions had been. Néillos had the Righ’s family and household, seventy people in all, crucified at the former site of the grove of Baivos. Stepping back to regard his handiwork, Néillos’ comment was darkly laconic.


‘How quick the old trees of Balivos grew back. It must be all the rain.’


Fearing servile insurrection the Righi of Uladh and Connachta expelled the monks and nuns from the seven Christian communities founded by Patricius, and a great number of churches were burned. There was a general exodus of wealthier Christians to the lands of Laigin (4) to the south, and organized Christian life effectively stopped in the north of Ireland, though of course there were small autonomous Christian groups among the slaves. Patrick himself went to Laigin where his increasingly millenarian preaching became wilder and more zealous. Christian sources say he was martyred by an angry mob three years later, at a place called Dubhlinos (Old Irish: The black pool), whose location remains a mystery.

(1) Navan Fort, county Armagh.
(2) Armagh.
(3)The Connachta in the North and Midlands were increasingly known as Avi Néilli, in honour of Neillos of the Nine Hostages. In the West they retained the name Connachta.
(4) Roughly, southern Leinster, North-eastern Munster.

[boynamedsue]

Interesting of coyurse the biggest problem are that it need to spread, if you make the British (or the Anglo-Saxon), Franks, Saxons and Danes adopt this faith I think it will be a strong enough baser to survive permanent. I think you're best of if England are conquered by Anglo-Saxons it will replace the Christians with Pagans, which could adopt the Irish framework down over their own Gods, and they would function as a nice mediator to the contignental Germanic tribes.

Ah Valdemar, I knew you wouldn't be able to stay away from an early middle ages P.O.D for long! :)

I tend to agree, but I'm not sure about how far I need the Pagan Irish religion to spread. I will definitely have an offspin cult spreading, but maybe it'll be very distinct. It all depends on how I work out Europe.

The Irish gave Christendom a 50/70 year bonus in converting the Germanic pagans, if I look at a Viking age starting around 770, how much more pagan is Europe than OTL when christendom suffers a viking setback?

But then we have Spain, evidently it will have been a Germanic successor state (pick a tribe, any tribe) and then the Arabs come...oh wait I've killed Mohamed with a butterfly! :eek:

But still, I don't think even I'm so much of a butterfly fundamentalist to say this P.O.D kills France! There will definitely be a post Gallo-Roman entity speaking a dialect based on Gallo-Vulgar Latin... though it might not stay whole.

[Valdemar II]

Ah Valdemar, I knew you wouldn't be able to stay away from an early middle ages P.O.D for long! :)

What can I say I find the periode interesting.:p

I tend to agree, but I'm not sure about how far I need the Pagan Irish religion to spread. I will definitely have an offspin cult spreading, but maybe it'll be very distinct. It all depends on how I work out Europe.

The Irish gave Christendom a 50/70 year bonus in converting the Germanic pagans, if I look at a Viking age starting around 770, how much more pagan is Europe than OTL when christendom suffers a viking setback?


The question are whether a Viking Age as we know it will start, I tend to agree with Artic Warrior that the Viking Age, started a as response to Frankish expansion into Frisia and Saxony. Here without the Irish missionaring much of the common Franks stay Pagan, and we see a slow collapse of Christianity in Neustria and Cisrhine Austrasia, with the spread of Frankish, while this process likely will be turned in the late 8th Century (but by then most rural population north of Seine are Pagan), it mean that the Irish Religion (let's call it the Old Faith) can spread spread freely to England and Pictland. Especially if they adopt the monastic elements from Christianity in Ireland, the Anglo-Saxon can adopt it as a way to centralise their states, from there it could fast spread to Frisians, Saxons and Danes, and we could see one of the Frankish Northen "succesor" states (the Franks split often) adopt it from there, and permanent split Frankia between a old Faith north and a Christian south, or if *Muslim doesn't conquer Spain we may see the Visigoths regain Aquitaine, while a Christian Frankish succesor state survive in Burgundy.

But then we have Spain, evidently it will have been a Germanic successor state (pick a tribe, any tribe) and then the Arabs come...oh wait I've killed Mohamed with a butterfly! :eek:

I think you can legitimed handwave a alt Muhammed, some kind of *Islam seems unavoidable. But they may not be as lucky or succesfull as in OTL.

But still, I don't think even I'm so much of a butterfly fundamentalist to say this P.O.D kills France! There will definitely be a post Gallo-Roman entity speaking a dialect based on Gallo-Vulgar Latin... though it might not stay whole.

I don't think so the spread of Frankish in the Seine drainage basin was mostly stopped by the strenghting of Christianity, here we would likely see Frankish dominate north of the Seine (and some areas south of it).

[Susano]

But still, I don't think even I'm so much of a butterfly fundamentalist to say this P.O.D kills France! There will definitely be a post Gallo-Roman entity speaking a dialect based on Gallo-Vulgar Latin... though it might not stay whole.
France is the West Frankish Empire. So, to have France you need teh Frankish Empire to reach cerca the extension it had IOTL, and then hae it be dynastically split. Thats lots of chances to butterfly it away. Of course, a post-Roman Gaul entity may spring up, but it wouldnt be "France", and of course, the Gaulish territory may end up split, too...

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

So the Irish Druids are going to adapt the Christian monastic system for themselves, thus centralizing their own religious authority, and even make proper use of writing by the Seventh Century?

If this does reach the Saxons in England, would they still maintain the old names of their ancestral Gods while adopting the Irish myth cycle and the Druidic caste/religious authority in their own culture?

[EvolvedSaurian]

I'd always read that Dublin, as a city anyway, was founded by the Norse, one of the Ragnarssons, I believe.

So, judging by the whole 'location remains a mystery bit,' are we to take it that the vikings don't happen, or just that they don't found Dublin?

[boynamedsue]

France is the West Frankish Empire. So, to have France you need teh Frankish Empire to reach cerca the extension it had IOTL, and then hae it be dynastically split. Thats lots of chances to butterfly it away. Of course, a post-Roman Gaul entity may spring up, but it wouldnt be "France", and of course, the Gaulish territory may end up split, too...

You're right of course, I now declare *France renamed as DisputedGallo-RomanEntityLand.

[boynamedsue]

The question are whether a Viking Age as we know it will start, I tend to agree with Artic Warrior that the Viking Age, started a as response to Frankish expansion into Frisia and Saxony. Here without the Irish missionaring much of the common Franks stay Pagan, and we see a slow collapse of Christianity in Neustria and Cisrhine Austrasia, with the spread of Frankish, while this process likely will be turned in the late 8th Century (but by then most rural population north of Seine are Pagan), it mean that the Irish Religion (let's call it the Old Faith) can spread spread freely to England and Pictland. Especially if they adopt the monastic elements from Christianity in Ireland, the Anglo-Saxon can adopt it as a way to centralise their states, from there it could fast spread to Frisians, Saxons and Danes, and we could see one of the Frankish Northen "succesor" states (the Franks split often) adopt it from there, and permanent split Frankia between a old Faith north and a Christian south, or if *Muslim doesn't conquer Spain we may see the Visigoths regain Aquitaine, while a Christian Frankish succesor state survive in Burgundy.


I don't think so the spread of Frankish in the Seine drainage basin was mostly stopped by the strenghting of Christianity, here we would likely see Frankish dominate north of the Seine (and some areas south of it).

Thanks for the thoughts, I'm mulling them over and looking at the history at the moment.

My only concern is that I can't think of any region OTL that repaganised after conversion, except possibly Northumbria and Mercia, and then only for 20-30 years.

I'll have a look when my "tendency butterfly net" lifts from Europe in 500.

Evolved Saurian:

OTL, Dublin was a Norse creation, but the name is Irish, probably describing a physical feature that was there before the city. The Norse used this older name but the Irish gave the city a new name Baile Atha Cliath (the fort of the hurdle gate). If the more ancient Norse name hadn't been borrowed into English, the capital of Ireland would be called "Ballyatterclee", "Ballyattercliffe" or possibly just "Bailey".


TTL, the old name is also lost in Irish, but it is not preserved in any other language. And you are right, this was my way of indicating that Uncle Ragnar Skulldrinker will not be coming to dinner.

[Valdemar II]

Thanks for the thoughts, I'm mulling them over and looking at the history at the moment.

My only concern is that I can't think of any region OTL that repaganised after conversion, except possibly Northumbria and Mercia, and then only for 20-30 years.

It's not that Northen Francia repaganised, it that the average Frank stayed Pagan, and like the Anglo-Saxons in Britain they spread (and like in Britain Christianity collapse too), while the Romance population was reduced to the cities (which kept speaking Vulgar Latin until the 11-12th century), that process was turned when Christian missionaries began to convert the average Franks. Beside Norway was a example of state which repaganisated. If the Old Faith offer a alternative and independent bureacracy, I think it's likely that some Frankish kings may see it as alternative to Christianity.

[boynamedsue]

It's not that Northen Francia repaganised, it that the average Frank stayed Pagan, and like the Anglo-Saxons in Britain they spread (and like in Britain Christianity collapse too), while the Romance population was reduced to the cities (which kept speaking Vulgar Latin until the 11-12th century), that process was turned when Christian missionaries began to convert the average Franks. Beside Norway was a example of state which repaganisated. If the Old Faith offer a alternative and independent bureacracy, I think it's likely that some Frankish kings may see it as alternative to Christianity.

How much Frankish migration was there? Was it not more of an elite taking over from the old aristocracy, lording it over the Romano-Gallic (or at this date, occasionally still Gaulish) peasantry?

[Valdemar II]

How much Frankish migration was there? Was it not more of an elite taking over from the old aristocracy, lording it over the Romano-Gallic (or at this date, occasionally still Gaulish) peasantry?

It was a mix, in many area, the Frankish aristrocracy just took over, but there was also quite major Frankish migration to their entire empire, archelogist has found Frankish villages down to the Spanish border. But mostly they settled in the north the entire area between the Rhine and Seine was mix of Romance and Frankish (and Alemannic in Elsass), and Frankish rural enclaves existed in France and Belgium up to end of the Middle Ages. It was only with strenghtening of the Church in the 7th century the collapse of Christianity and Vulgar Latin stopped in Neustria, and it seem that strenghtening was to some point helped by Irish missionaries, which converted the common Frank (and those nobles whom was still were Pagan) and made them integrated into the Gallo-Latin population (and vice versa*). Without the Irish we would likely see the process continue for a century, through I think at som point it will be turned.

*While linguistic the French are mostly descendant of Gallo-Latin, cultural they are close related to the Germanics (of course so are the North Italians), likely Gallo-Latin got an edge because with the Christianity it was the language of prestige.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Thanks for the thoughts, I'm mulling them over and looking at the history at the moment.

My only concern is that I can't think of any region OTL that repaganised after conversion, except possibly Northumbria and Mercia, and then only for 20-30 years.

I'll have a look when my "tendency butterfly net" lifts from Europe in 500.


Sweden went back and forth a couple of times, until the 1200s, IIRC. One of the last Heathen kings of Sweden was known as Blot-Sweyn, that is Sweyn the Sacrificer.

EvolvedSaurian:

OTL, Dublin was a Norse creation, but the name is Irish, probably describing a physical feature that was there before the city. The Norse used this older name but the Irish gave the city a new name Baile Atha Cliath (the fort of the hurdle gate). If the more ancient Norse name hadn't been borrowed into English, the capital of Ireland would be called "Ballyatterclee", "Ballyattercliffe" or possibly just "Bailey".


TTL, the old name is also lost in Irish, but it is not preserved in any other language. And you are right, this was my way of indicating that Uncle Ragnar Skulldrinker will not be coming to dinner.

Now the queston becomes just him, or the rest of his countrymen as well? Guess we'll just have to wait and see, eh?

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

If theres no Viking Age, then there still might be Scandinavian migrations into Russia, Britain, France, and to Iceland. In which case the Druidic Old Faith may follow in the wake of the migrations. Or in the case of Iceland, they may even make it there first.

Will Armagh in Ireland attain the same distinction as Palestine as a site of pilgrimages for adherents of the Old Faith?

Is it too early to speculate how the Saxons of Germany, the Wends and the Magyars cope in this TL?

[Valdemar II]

If theres no Viking Age, then there still might be Scandinavian migrations into Russia, Britain, France, and to Iceland. In which case the Druidic Old Faith may follow in the wake of the migrations. Or in the case of Iceland, they may even make it there first.

Will Armagh in Ireland attain the same distinction as Palestine as a site of pilgrimages for adherents of the Old Faith?

Is it too early to speculate how the Saxons of Germany, the Wends and the Magyars cope in this TL?

The Magyars hasn't arrived yet, and the Wends well their population density compared to their neighbours Denmark and Saxony was around 10-20% of theirs. I think you can guess what will happen.

[boynamedsue]

This is my 3 part anoraky bit about early Sub-Roman Britain. I love the topic, so have gone into medium detail. OTL, nobody has a clue what actually happened, so I’ve taken my opinions about it, and then factored in the butterflies from a pagan Ireland. At the end of part 3, I’ll put a summary of the differences between TTL 463 and OTL 463, if you’re bored, just skip to that. And don't worry, I'll be back to Salmon of wisdom et al soon enough. And I suppose I’ll have to do a bloody map.



Few periods of British history saw such a revolutionary change as that immediately following Constantine’s withdrawal of the legions in 407. In these 56 short years, Britannia degenerated from a unified province, integrated within the Roman Empire, into a crazy mosaic of British, Latin, Irish and Germanic kingdoms. It also provided British history with some of its most recognizable names: Coel Heno, Inegold the Jute, Cunobelo Mapo Murchado and of course, the tyrant Vitalinus Voreticernus.

The Concilium Magistratorum and the Diarchy


In theory, throughout this period, Britain was ruled by the Concilium Magistratorum, a council comprised of tribal, religious and municipal leaders, who nominated officials to fulfill the military offices left over from the provincial government. They were also charged with co-ordinating a strategy for provincial defence against the Picts, Scots and Germanic raiders.

In practice, Coelius f. Tegmanius was effectively tyrant of the North from 410 onwards. Further South, the Concilium Magistratorum remained the dominant institution until 416, when Irish raiders sacked Gleva. Faced with the evident inability of the council to defend even Britain’s cities, the tribal leaders and the bishops conspired to install the Silurian leader Vitalinus as dictator.

While the council continued to meet infrequently, and again technically assumed responsibility for southern Britannia upon Vitalinus’ death in 441, the Roman provincial administrative structures, based in Londinium, had all but disappeared by 430.

This time would come to be seen by the descendents of the largely British-speaking population of 407 as a catastrophe, and from their point of view it is difficult not to agree with this assessment. While Coelius undoubtedly had greater military success, these two tyrants share the responsibility for the breakdown of the defensive system that could have prevented the Saxon and Irish destruction of Britannia. It is therefore perhaps a little unfair that Christian sources always refer to one as Coelius Tegmanius, Rex Britannia Inferior and the other as Vitalinus, Superbus Tyrannus Britannia Superior.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The Magyars hasn't arrived yet, and the Wends well their population density compared to their neighbours Denmark and Saxony was around 10-20% of theirs. I think you can guess what will happen.

Sorry, I meant the Avars.

[Jaded_Railman]

The question are whether a Viking Age as we know it will start, I tend to agree with Artic Warrior that the Viking Age, started a as response to Frankish expansion into Frisia and Saxony.

Some specific raids may have been related to Charlemagne's geopolitics, but Scandinavia was experiencing heavy over-population at the time and the technological and social conditions to drive men to go viking are still there. There is almost certainly still going to be a 'viking age'.

[boynamedsue]

Some specific raids may have been related to Charlemagne's geopolitics, but Scandinavia was experiencing heavy over-population at the time and the technological and social conditions to drive men to go viking are still there. There is almost certainly still going to be a 'viking age'.

That's the path I'm looking at, but I think that it'll be less Atlanticised. Scotland may suffer more, but Pagan Ireland will present a tougher target.

[Valdemar II]

That's the path I'm looking at, but I think that it'll be less Atlanticised. Scotland may suffer more, but Pagan Ireland will present a tougher target.

We will likely see a push into the Baltic and Central Europe instead. I doubt we see much change with Russia, mostly because this change the Swedish expantion very little, through we may see some stronger colonisation of Estonia, Courland and Finland. The biggest change will be what the Danes do, likely we will see a continue military expantion in Saxony and Wendia as they did before the Franks cut them off. Likely we will see Danish settlers in Mecklenburg and Pommern, and maybe along the Oder. While the Norvegian likely do much as in OTL, through with a stronger Ireland, they may go after the weaker Pictland instead. So they may join the as the fourth Germanic tribe of Britain.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Well done. You've portrayed the chaos present in Sub-Roman Britain so well that I cannot understand that last section.

Kidding. ;)

[boynamedsue]

Almost from the day the legions left, the exposed coasts of southwestern Britain were prime targets for raiders from the Laigin and Connachta tribes of Ireland. Aware of Britain’s organizational difficulties, they conducted minor raids on rich exposed targets like coastal villas and churches, and more serious lightning attacks on richer prizes such Gloucester. The objectives of these razzias were always the same; gold and slaves.

However, the Laigin quickly realized that fertile land could be taken quite easily in Britain, especially in areas cut off from the rest of the island by mountains, marshes and moors. The kingdom of Laginbhianos (1) was one such, founded in 412, behind the secure walls of Snowdonia, facing the Irish Sea. Irish settlements were also significant in Dometia (2), which was in Irish hands by 415, and at various places in the southwestern peninsula of Britain, where the nuclei of the future kingdom of Eriu were founded around the Tamar and in the Marshes of Glast (3).

In 420, a particularly severe summer of raids on Dumnonia combined with the Pictish sack of Lindum Colonia (4), led Vitalinus to use a tried and tested Roman method for combating barbarians. In exchange for their service as auxiliaries, groups of Jutish, Frankish, Angle, Frisian and Saxon warriors were offered gold and land in Eastern Britannia. They were placed under the command of the Count of The Saxon Shore, Vitalinus’ son, Voretimerus, and took part in several battles against the Picts and Irish. However, it became clear that they were no longer obeying the orders of their commander, and there were several incidences of ransacking villas, which culminated in the sacking of Venta Icenorum (5) by a group of Franks led by Sunnod.

Instead of punishing the uppity Barbarians, Vitalinus negotiated a settlement with Sunod, whereby he recognised Vitalinus’ authority as High King of The Britons in exchange for being named “Magistrati Icenorum”, ruler of the Iceni. The term “High King” was an innovation based on the Germanic concept of kingship, and was viewed with suspicion by other British leaders.

Voretimerus was disgusted by this settlement and began to plot with the factions most opposed to his father, the Latinised aristocracy of the lowland zone, and the powerful Cantii tribe, a group threatened by the Jutish settlement in the southeast. This alliance managed to defeat Vitalinus Voreticernus and his Germanic allies at the battle of London in 431, forcing Vitalinus into exile amongst the Angles north of Camelodunum. At this point, Vitalinus appears to have offered the Germans more land in exchange for more troops from the continent, sealing the deal by marrying the daughter of Inegold the Jute.

This new army, along with Vitalinus’ allies from his home territory in the west, was too strong for the Latin aristocracy. Gaining a few concessions on more autonomy for Londinium, they made peace with the tyrant in 433; leaving his son Voretimerus and his followers to flee to Britannia Minor (6).

Vitalinus now governed a smaller province, stripped of the new Kingdom of Iceningas (OTL Norfolk and parts of Suffolk), The Mark of The Angles (Suffolk up to the hinterland of Colchester) and the Kingdom of the Jutewearas (OTL Kent). There were also developing Germanic settlements around Lindum Colonia, and a small Saxon colony in the Thames valley, around the settlement which would come to be known as Dorecaestre (7).

This uneasy peace continued until 438 when the Saxons of the upper Thames, now effectively the local aristocracy, began to attempt to settle in the territory governed by King Nantleodos of Carcalava (8). Vitalinus sided with the Britons, and ordered the Saxons to respect Carcalava’s boundaries, leading the Saxons to appeal to their kin in continental Europe for help. In 440, an army of eight hundred Saxons landed in the Solent, and were immediately joined by British allies from within the Belgae, traditional enemies of the Atrebates of Carcalava.

Furious at the Saxons, Vitalinus marched to the aid of Nantleodos and the Atrebates with an army of Britons and Germanic allies, led by his father-in-law, Inegold the Jute. When the two armies faced each other somewhere on the road from Carcalava, the Germanic component of his army switched sides. Before Vitalinus was hacked to pieces, the 62-year-old tyrant must have realized he had been the victim of a well planned conspiracy. The cream of the warriors of southern Britain lay dead on the battlefield, the Germans and their allies must have been sure that nothing south of the Trent and east of the Irish Sea could stop them.

The heart of the Island of Britain was at their mercy.


(1) OTL Anglesey and the Lleyn Peninsula.
(2) OTL Dyfed
(3) Somerset levels, around Glastonbury
(4) Lincoln
(5) Caistor, Norfolk
(6) Britanny
(7) Dorchester on Thames, Oxfordshire
(8) Silchester, Hampshire

[Valdemar II]

Nice update, but it's Germanics not Germans.

[boynamedsue]

From the Black Book of Chester (Cerca 900 AD)

That day was the ruin of Britain. Carcalleva, Carlyr, Calchminido, Gleva, Cargerontio, Durovigo, Catavalaun... all were left defenceless to the Pagans.

And when the treachery of Inegold was complete, and the flower Britain's youth were slain. Inegold had the Tyrant Guortigerno brought to him, so he might mock and defile him.

And when he was before the Jutish King, it was clear he bore a mortal wound, and yet he would not stop laughing, even as the Germans tortured him most foully.

'Why do you laugh so, oh Son-in-law? The Island of Britain has passed to the Germans. My sons shall rule as High King in your palace.'

Guortigerno answered him fearlessly.

'I laugh because I have had a vision, oh father-in-law. I saw the red dragon of my banner fight against the white dragon of yours on Castle Hill in London. And the red dragon was beaten fiercely, and it flew away to the shelter of a church by the river Dee. There it hid, licking its wounds, for 800 years, before it was strong enough to fight again.'

Now, Inegold laughed too.

'Your mind is gone old fool, for the White Dragon is my German people, and the Red Dragon is your British people. And you Christians shall not have the strength to even try to take back your island for 800 years.'

So father-in-law and son-in-law both laughed, and all the Pagans and traitors who stood around the torture laughed too. After a while Guortigerno raised his arm and bade them quiet, and Inegold consented.

'But, dear father-in-law, when the Red Dragon flies again, it is not to fight the White Dragon, but a Raven and a Bull. They have the White Dragon grovelling at their feet, whipped, whining and gelded.'

And Guortigerno had stopped laughing, as had the Germans.

'And this is the dying prophecy of a High King, and the dying curse of a High King.'

And he leapt at Inegold, and was traversed by Inegold's sword. And though he was dying, his jump knocked the German to the ground so Guortigerno was lying on top of him like a man atop his wife.

And Guortigerno spat blood in his father-in-law's face then died, smiling.

[boynamedsue]

Nice update, but it's Germanics not Germans.

I thought about that one.

Given the Latin term "Germanus" existed, to describe anyone of Germanic language, I'm using that word to describe the more diverse Germanic tribes which invaded TTL southern England. The Latins of London use the term "Germani" to describe them, so my usage reflects the exonym given by the Romano-Britons, rather than modern English usage relating to Germany.

[Valdemar II]

From the Black Book of Chester (Cerca 900 AD)

That day was the ruin of Britain. Carcalleva, Carlyr, Calchminido, Gleva, Cargerontio, Durovigo, Catavalaun... all were left defenceless to the Pagans.

And when the treachery of Inegold was complete, and the flower Britain's youth were slain. Inegold had the Tyrant Guortigerno brought to him, so he might mock and defile him.

And when he was before the Jutish King, it was clear he bore a mortal wound, and yet he would not stop laughing, even as the Germans tortured him most foully.

'Why do you laugh so, oh Son-in-law? The Island of Britain has passed to the Germans. My sons shall rule as High King in your palace.'

Guortigerno answered him fearlessly.

'I laugh because I have had a vision, oh father-in-law. I saw the red dragon of my banner fight against the white dragon of yours on Castle Hill in London. And the red dragon was beaten fiercely, and it flew away to the shelter of a church by the river Dee. There it hid, licking its wounds, for 800 years, before it was strong enough to fight again.'

Now, Inegold laughed too.

'Your mind is gone old fool, for the White Dragon is my German people, and the Red Dragon is your British people. And you Christians shall not have the strength to even try to take back your island for 800 years.'

So father-in-law and son-in-law both laughed, and all the Pagans and traitors who stood around the torture laughed too. After a while Guortigerno raised his arm and bade them quiet, and Inegold consented.

'But, dear son-in-law, when the Red Dragon flies again, it is not to fight the Red Dragon, but a Raven and a Bull. They have the White Dragon grovelling at their feet, whipped, whining and gelded.'

And Guortigerno had stopped laughing, as had the Germans.

'And this is the dying prophecy of a High King, and the dying curse of a High King.'

And he leapt at Inegold, and was traversed by Inegold's sword. And though he was dying, his jump knocked the German to the ground so Guortigerno was lying on top of him like a man atop his wife.

And Guortigerno spat blood in his father-in-law's face then died, smiling.

Interesting the Raven was symbol of the Danes, while the Bull was Icelands.

[boynamedsue]

Interesting the Raven was symbol of the Danes, while the Bull was Icelands.

First one is correct TTL, the second one has had quite a lot of butterfly effect on it...;)

[TheDarkMessiah]

'But, dear son-in-law, when the Red Dragon flies again, it is not to fight the Red Dragon, but a Raven and a Bull. They have the White Dragon grovelling at their feet, whipped, whining and gelded.'


Good Last Chapter, but I think you must have put red dragon instead of white dragon somewhere here.. why would the red dragon fight itself?

[boynamedsue]

Good Last Chapter, but I think you must have put red dragon instead of white dragon somewhere here.. why would the red dragon fight itself?

It...It might do...:o

Cheers for the heads up .

[TheDarkMessiah]

It...It might do...:o

Cheers for the heads up .

AH.com has made me pedantic, i'll put it down to just having had a kid ;)

When I first read this chapter I though the Raven had something to do with the Morrigan :o But the symbol of the Danes does make sense.

A sorta related question though, is the Raven a symbol of the Danes because of a connection with Odin, do you know, or was it something else.

[boynamedsue]

AH.com has made me pedantic, i'll put it down to just having had a kid ;)

When I first read this chapter I though the Raven had something to do with the Morrigan :o But the symbol of the Danes does make sense.

A sorta related question though, is the Raven a symbol of the Danes because of a connection with Odin, do you know, or was it something else.

Nothing wrong with the reasoning, just wasn't what I was thinking.

I think the raven was chosen for its association with Odin, and its being cool. Let's face it, no animal is cooler than masive crows in the snow.

[Valdemar II]

Nothing wrong with the reasoning, just wasn't what I was thinking.

I think the raven was chosen for its association with Odin, and its being cool. Let's face it, no animal is cooler than masive crows in the snow.

The Raven was so much more, for the Jutes being told that the Raven will invade, more and less mean they're shitting themself in fear, the Raven are symbol of Odins favour and death itself, and according to legend no one whom fought under the Raven banner while it flapped would ever lose. While the bull are less important in Germanic mythology, it still a symbol of strength.

[boynamedsue]

The Raven was so much more, for the Jutes being told that the Raven will invade, more and less mean they're shitting themself in fear, the Raven are symbol of Odins favour and death itself, and according to legend no one whom fought under the Raven banner while it flapped would ever lose. While the bull are less important in Germanic mythology, it still a symbol of strength.

I like that, the Britons get beat, but invent a DREAD curse using pagan symbolism...

We'll see more of the raven prophecy, thanks Val :)

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

It seems that in common with Odin, Dagda was also known as the "All Father" (Eochaid Ollathair). So if this Old Faith offshoot develops amog the Anglo-Saxons in Britain, the Raven might become a universal religious symbol. I wonder what kind of hand-gesture would serve to denote a Raven?!

[EvolvedSaurian]

Almost from the day the legions left, the exposed coasts of southwestern Britain were prime targets for raiders from the Laigin and Connachta tribes of Ireland. Aware of Britain’s organizational difficulties, they conducted minor raids on rich exposed targets like coastal villas and churches, and more serious lightning attacks on richer prizes such Gloucester. The objectives of these razzias were always the same; gold and slaves.

However, the Laigin quickly realized that fertile land could be taken quite easily in Britain, especially in areas cut off from the rest of the island by mountains, marshes and moors. The kingdom of Laginbhianos (1) was one such, founded in 412, behind the secure walls of Snowdonia, facing the Irish Sea. Irish settlements were also significant in Dometia (2), which was in Irish hands by 415, and at various places in the southwestern peninsula of Britain, where the nuclei of the future kingdom of Eriu were founded around the Tamar and in the Marshes of Glast (3).

This is going to be awesome, isn't it?

[King Gorilla]

It seems that in common with Odin, Dagda was also known as the "All Father" (Eochaid Ollathair). So if this Old Faith offshoot develops amog the Anglo-Saxons in Britain, the Raven might become a universal religious symbol. I wonder what kind of hand-gesture would serve to denote a Raven?!

I wonder to what degrees syncreticism would manifest itself amongst both the Saxons and the Norse. Not only will germanic gods be coming into contact with celtic ones, there is the ever present specter of Christianity to the south. Might we see a greatly trimmed north pantheon with Balder taking the role of a christ like figure and Loki as a satanic trickster?

[Valdemar II]

It seems that in common with Odin, Dagda was also known as the "All Father" (Eochaid Ollathair). So if this Old Faith offshoot develops amog the Anglo-Saxons in Britain, the Raven might become a universal religious symbol. I wonder what kind of hand-gesture would serve to denote a Raven?!

Unlikely while the Raven was a very important religeous symbol, so was the wolf and horse and lot of other symbols. Interesting while the Saxon used the White Horse and the Danes the Raven, among common religeous symbols the Hammer was a lot more commoned used. Odin was for rulers, while Thor was for the common man.A likely symbol would be a tree or leaf, trees seem to have had especially religeous meaning, of a noose aren't impossible either, it was the common way to make sacrifises to the Hanged God; Odin.

I wonder to what degrees syncreticism would manifest itself amongst both the Saxons and the Norse. Not only will germanic gods be coming into contact with celtic ones, there is the ever present specter of Christianity to the south. Might we see a greatly trimmed north pantheon with Balder taking the role of a christ like figure and Loki as a satanic trickster?

AQ important aspect to remember are that Celtic and Nordic mythology has a lot in common even their Gods seem to evolution of the same Indo-European Gods (the Vanas being the exception), the biggest problem are that the main Celtic god Lugn seem among the Germanic to have evolve into Loki, through this may happens so early that Loki hasn't developed his darker aspects.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

AQ important aspect to remember are that Celtic and Nordic mythology has a lot in common even their Gods seem to evolution of the same Indo-European Gods (the Vanas being the exception), the biggest problem are that the main Celtic god Lugn seem among the Germanic to have evolve into Loki, through this may happens so early that Loki hasn't developed his darker aspects.

I rather thought that Lugh/Lugus had more of an analogy with Odin than with Loki. Lugus was a universal benefactor and an inventor of crafts, while Loki was a trickster and double-agent.

[Valdemar II]

I rather thought that Lugh/Lugus had more of an analogy with Odin than with Loki. Lugus was a universal benefactor and an inventor of crafts, while Loki was a trickster and double-agent.

Loki was oath brother with Odin, and it seem a lot of aspects of Loki has darken with times, original either Vile or Ve (Odins brothers and co creator of mankind and the world) seemed to have been a aspect of him, and the tales seemed to have been turned with times to put the blame on Loki. Likely he has started as some the same God as Lugn and Prometheus both a trickster and humankinds benefactor (he still created the first fishing net). I would be surprise the reason he turned darker was that the early Germanics saw him as the Celts Gods. Tjasse a Sami nature spirit/God seem to have gotten the same treatment.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

If the Irish Druids that pioneer this new incarnation of the Old Faith establish a close-knit hierarchy based on the Christian monastic model, would they employ the Ogham alphabet, or would the resort to the Greek or Latin alphabets? I've had some bother looking up some authoritative sources on Ogham, but some of them are dodgy. I'm personally sceptical that it was invented by Christian missionaries. Why would they create a writing system, only to just end up using Latin lettering anyway?! I rather think it may have been a native Irish development pre-dating Christian influence. But thats just me.

[Valdemar II]

If the Irish Druids that pioneer this new incarnation of the Old Faith establish a close-knit hierarchy based on the Christian monastic model, would they employ the Ogham alphabet, or would the resort to the Greek or Latin alphabets? I've had some bother looking up some authoritative sources on Ogham, but some of them are dodgy. I'm personally sceptical that it was invented by Christian missionaries. Why would they create a writing system, only to just end up using Latin lettering anyway?! I rather think it may have been a native Irish development pre-dating Christian influence. But thats just me.

When I look at it, it seem unlikely to survive, the strait lines seem to indicated that it was used as Runes to carve the letters, when they begin write it, it get curves, and here the variation in the letter seems to have to little variation in form, so it will likely be replaced, but it can just as well be replaced with written Runes (Runes with curves) as with Latin alphabet (especially if the Germani has mostly replaced the "Welsh" in England).

[boynamedsue]

When I look at it, it seem unlikely to survive, the strait lines seem to indicated that it was used as Runes to carve the letters, when they begin write it, it get curves, and here the variation in the letter seems to have to little variation in form, so it will likely be replaced, but it can just as well be replaced with written Runes (Runes with curves) as with Latin alphabet (especially if the Germani has mostly replaced the "Welsh" in England).

Ogham will keep its OTL role for longer (a language for carving on sticks and stone) but will be replaced by something else in books.

[boynamedsue]

463 Britannia

Between 441-463, the heart of the Island of Britain fell into chaos. While the North remained firmly in the grips of King Coelius, the death of Vitalinus left a variety of German, British and Irish tribal groupings to fight for dominance.



On the below map we can see British kingdoms in Yellow, Pictish kingdoms in Brown, Irish kingdoms in Green, Germanic kingdoms in red, and the Latin Province of Londinium in grey. The land of Belga is Orange, to demonstrate its mixed German and British society.


86684




Large, politically important immigrant groups within kingdoms are expressed with dots relating to that group’s ethnic origin. In the North, the most notable immigrants are German mercenaries, loyal to Coelius. In the West and South West, Irish immigration is more unofficial, and Irish chieftains are often practically kings in their own small territories. It should be assumed that British populations exist in all Germanic and Irish kingdoms of the mainland, though a certain amount of flight and massacre has reduced the British population to the extent it is now a minority in some eastern areas.


The white area in the South/Centre of the island is a patchwork of petty chiefdoms whose boundaries are constantly shifting, and so are difficult to display accurately. The names of the most important confederations of tribes are indicated by letters. Most interesting are the Gewissae, a British group who are Celtic Pagans, but have adopted many Saxon customs through their alliance with the Saexon. The dots indicate political power over the surrounding area, not ethnic majority.


Also noteworthy is the kingdom of Saferna, founded by the British-born Irishman Cunobelo Mapo Murchado. His desperate battles with the Seaxons could be considered the only reason the Saxons did not conquer the Brtish midlands as far as the Severn in these chaotic years.

The kingdoms of the North are a result of the death of Coelius in 463 when his lands were divided between his (many) sons.

The difference from OTL is that the Anglo-Saxons have captured much more of England, OTL they were (probably) pushed back to Kent and East Anglia by Vortigern. TTL, the Saxons do better because the Irish are less busy being godly, and attack Britain slightly more, meaning Vortigern gets more Germans, and things go worse when they rebel.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Have you thought of a any unique names to give the "Old Faith"? Something derived from Irish Gaelic, perhaps?!

[boynamedsue]

Have you thought of a any unique names to give the "Old Faith"? Something derived from Irish Gaelic, perhaps?!

I'm thinking along the lines of "Our way", or "Danua's Way"... then the offshoots might be based on various different prophets.

[Mark-ITSOT]

Good timeline, but you might want to include a pronunciation guide for the Irish words and names used as consonant pairings in Irish aren't pronounced the same as they would be in English (or most other languages :p ). For example: The great Irish hero Cuchulain. Written down it looks like it should be pronounced Cuckooklane, but in actual fact it's pronounced Coohoolin.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I'm thinking along the lines of "Our way", or "Danua's Way"... then the offshoots might be based on various different prophets.

Maybe "Duthchas Denann" which I hope can translate as heritage or inheritance of Danua. Or perhaps "Dlighe Denann", or "Creideamh Denann".

[EvolvedSaurian]

Also noteworthy is the kingdom of Saferna, founded by the British-born Irishman Cunobelo Mapo Murchado. His desperate battles with the Seaxons could be considered the only reason the Saxons did not conquer the Brtish midlands as far as the Severn in these chaotic years.

An Irishman, but with a British name? I must've missed something, how'd that happen?

Also, Franks? Again with the missing something.

As for a name, I'd suggest Cultas na Dagdha (Or Lugh or whoever), but I'm unsure as to whether that's a cognate or a borrowing from Latin or Norman French or English.

[boynamedsue]

An Irishman, but with a British name? I must've missed something, how'd that happen?

Also, Franks? Again with the missing something.

As for a name, I'd suggest Cultas na Dagdha (Or Lugh or whoever), but I'm unsure as to whether that's a cognate or a borrowing from Latin or Norman French or English.

Well spotted with Cunobelo. His first name is pan-celtic, meaning Hound of the God Bel, his father's name is an attested Irish name, Murchadaos. He was born in Brtiain, and is mentioned in a British context, so I use the British form of his name. In 5th century Irish he would be Cunobelos Maqui Murchadai.

There almost certainly were Franks amongst the Anglo-Saxons OTL, TTL there are more, and they become the leaders of a Kingdom. This is because of Vitalinus' more genral invitation of Germanic tribes to Britain, and a few minor differences in Gallia that I will probably detail in a "Gallia, 500 AD" section.

Re-language, Mark ISOT and ES. There's a lot of evidence that the social change accompanying Christianity led to radical changes in the Irish language. In this TL we will see a more conservative day-to-day language, anchored by a druidic "Vedic" Irish, reflecting the ceremonial language used in Ogham inscriptions. This will retain strong noun inflection, and a pronunciation much more conservative than OTL. The pron should, at this date largely be as read, with "ch" = "loch" and initial "s" = "she", and vowels short but never reduced to schwa, and the dipthongs indicated by double vowels. "dh" is somewhere between a "d" and a "v" and "gh" is still a sound somewhere between hard and soft "g" at this date-

[boynamedsue]

(From the Book of Bards, cerca 1250)

Sure this all happened a long time ago, so long ago now that if I had a grain of sand for every year that has passed since then, I’d own the beach at Cilerani.

In those days, Ireland was very different from now: Danuadonos had only just built the first techos drii (1) at Erainos Machai (2), and people just followed the gods in whatever way they felt best. Now, as you might imagine, this led to a lot of confusion as to the right way to honour them, and politely ask them for the kind of a help a body might need from a god.

Well one day, some Kings were gathered at Dunos Alinei (3), to feast and talk and talk over the problems that would often come up between neighbours. As will happen, the talk turned to religion, and the question came up as to what the best sacrifice should be at Beltainna.

First to speak was the King of the Mui, Dauios of the Broken Sword.

‘It is plain to all that the appropriate sacrifice to Shining Belos should be a young calf, killed by a clean spear thrust from the head man of the tribe. A king must do the same, only with a man, not a calf.’

‘Will you stop your nonsense?’ Answered King Ivogustos of the Feni, ‘The only thing to be done with a calf at Beltainna is the eating of it! Pigeons are the thing at Beltainna, a hundred white pigeons in a basket to be put on the fire. That’s if you can get them… for a royal celebration you need a warrior who has killed, but never lain with a woman. That and a bigger basket, of course.’

‘For the love of Danua, are the both of yous away with the fairies?’ Cried Eachmarachos, King of the Iverni. ‘You’re right about the burning Ivogustos, but the only animals Belos is interested in are pigs… one, two, ten, as many as you can spare, he’s mad for them! And they want killing first, then throwing on the fire afterwards.’

All of them turned to Belachos maqui Bressali, King of Laghinos, their host, and the most powerful of the kings assembled there, to hear his counsel.

‘Well I admit this is a difficult problem, we have our own traditions here in Laghinos, which are different again. I propose that we ask my magician, Séalios (4), sent to me from Gaul by the Christians. He has been of great use in many matters of my kingdom, and so his opinion is valuable to me.’

The Christian was a tall thin tonsured man, who dressed all in purple and carried a magic staff, curved like a shepherd’s crook.

‘It is as well you sacrifice a man, a dog, a woman, a sheep, or a dung beetle, for all you do is please a monster and send your soul into an otherworld of fire. For there is only one god, and the others are fomori who pose as gods to trick you.’

Outcry isn’t the half of it. There were druids spitting and throwing things and shouting at the Christian, even having to be restrained by their own kings! Till a voice piped up from the back.

‘Well now Séalios, how sure would you be of that talk?’

It was Cunobelos maqui Murchadi, King of The Irish over The Sea, a hundred years old but still as sharp as Ulisseos.

‘So certain that I would die before taking back my words.’

‘Well, in that case, with King Belachos’ permission, I would propose there be a duel between yourself and one of the magicians of Our Way.’

‘That seems a fair enough plan my cousin.’ Allowed the King of the Laghinos. ‘But who shall we choose as the representative of Our Way?’

Again there was a great shouting from the druids present, all begging the honour of facing down the Jesus Wizard. Again the wily old fox Cunobelos spoke.

‘King of Laghinos, these Irish druids look fine lads, and I’m sure they’d all do a grand job. But why not give my man Mardenos a try? Though he was born in Britain, he a great magician altogether, and he’s been putting Christians in their place since before he could grow a beard.’
King Belachos took a good long look at the wizard, who was dressed in dirty robes, and looked not much of anything at all, then agreed to Cunobelos’ suggestion.

So on that hilltop at Dunos Alinei, Mardenos the magician of Eriu (5) squared up to Séalios the magician of Gaul.

First Séalios became a fierce wolfhound and charged headlong at Mardenos, who in turn transformed himself into a bear and swatted Séalios away then pinned him to the ground with his giant paw.
Séalios then became a snake and struck at the bear’s paw with the speed of lightning. But he didn’t hit his target, for Mardenos had become a swift and flown off into the dusk sky.
Enraged, Séalios became a falcon and tore off after him, only to dive in terror back towards the earth as Mardenos took the form of an eagle and made for to kill him.
Just as Séalios was striking Danua’s good Earth, he became a huge Oak tree, of such a size not seen since the first men came to Ireland. So the British druid became a woodpecker, and harried and mithered him.
Tiring of this irritation, the Christian became a great spotted cat, and caught the woodpecker in his mouth. To escape the sharp teeth of the cat, Mardenos became a flea and drove Séalios wild with his biting.
So Séalios became the Earth, and buried Mardenos alive, but the Briton became the grass and grew over the Christian.
Séalios let out a bovine cry of triumph as he became a white cow and started to devour the grass that was Mardenos. Mardenos smartly transformed himself back into a druid and stabbed the cow through the heart with a long thin sword.

Séalios fell to the ground, and Mardenos made the fire sign with his hand. Séalios’ corpse began to smoke and crackle, and was soon nicely ablaze.

As the smell of charred meat rose up towards Belos, Mardenos addressed the astonished kings.

‘Belos wants a white cow at Beltainna, killed with a clean sword-thrust from a druid. The body should then be burnt in offering. For a royal sacrifice, it must be a grown man.
Ask not the blacksmith about weaving, don’t have a fisherman make your pots, and think the man a fool who owns a dog yet barks. Let kings stay out of the business of Our Way. You are our masters here, but not in the otherworld.’

With that, Mardenos dropped his sword on the grass and walked off in anger.

‘Well now,’ Said King Cunobelos to his comrades. ‘That’ll be the end of that, then.’

And that is why, to this day, all the lords of Ireland sacrifice a white cow at Beltainna. And that’s also why all the kings of Ireland sacrifice a grown man to Belos, and always choose a Christian Magician for preference.


(1) House of Druids in Teanga Sacriba. First one founded officially in the 440's.
(2) Navan Fort, Co. Armagh.

(3) Dun Ailinne, a hillfort in Co. Kildare. Former ceremonial seat of the Kings of Leinster.

(4) Latin "Auxillius"
(5) Cunobelos maqui Murchadi was actually king of Saferna, and Mardenos (Myrddeno in British) is usually associated with the kingdom of Dunmardeno in DagdaTL British tradition.

The Kingdom of of Eriu (cerca 510-723) had not actually yet come in to being, and was in reality founded by Cunobelos' sons.

[TheDarkMessiah]

I like your Wizards Duel, it was very well written. :D

[EvolvedSaurian]

Well spotted with Cunobelo. His first name is pan-celtic, meaning Hound of the God Bel, his father's name is an attested Irish name, Murchadaos. He was born in Brtiain, and is mentioned in a British context, so I use the British form of his name. In 5th century Irish he would be Cunobelos Maqui Murchadai.

Ah. So this Eriu kingdom doesn't assimilate the British population, or does it just happen later?

There almost certainly were Franks amongst the Anglo-Saxons OTL, TTL there are more, and they become the leaders of a Kingdom. This is because of Vitalinus' more genral invitation of Germanic tribes to Britain, and a few minor differences in Gallia that I will probably detail in a "Gallia, 500 AD" section.

So lots more Germanic folks, as well as a greater Irish presence in the west... This is going to get very messy and confusing, isn't it?

Really loved the latest update, very dramatic and just a little funny.

[boynamedsue]

Ah. So this Eriu kingdom doesn't assimilate the British population, or does it just happen later?


It does and doesn't. The aristocracy remain culturally Irish,the common folk remain Brtish, but there's a lot of mixing and bilingualism and exchange of culture. Think OTL Norse Ireland or the Franks in Gaul.


So lots more Germanic folks, as well as a greater Irish presence in the west... This is going to get very messy and confusing, isn't it?


I've got a sneaking suspicion that OTL was a lot more messy and confusing than people think too. But yes, it'll be pretty mad for a couple of hundred years.


Really loved the latest update, very dramatic and just a little funny.

Thanks to both you and TDS for your kind words. These bardic chapters are my favourites to write.

[boynamedsue]

Maybe "Duthchas Denann" which I hope can translate as heritage or inheritance of Danua. Or perhaps "Dlighe Denann", or "Creideamh Denann".

Thanks for that Lys, I'm checking a Proto-Celtic word list to try and get a Primitive Irish version of those names for my Tengua Sacriba (Druidic Vedic).

[Geekhis Khan]

Wow, even with a dark ages POD and half of southern Britain already overrun by Germans, you still can't get a sucessful Séalios! :D

Gods, boyo, this TL gets better every post. I love the mix of history and myth and legend, and the obvious attention to detail is putting this one far above and beyond.

[boynamedsue]

Wow, even with a dark ages POD and half of southern Britain already overrun by Germans, you still can't get a sucessful Séalios! :D


:D


Gods, boyo, this TL gets better every post. I love the mix of history and myth and legend, and the obvious attention to detail is putting this one far above and beyond.

Aww thanks. :o

Aren't you nice, you?

[Andrew]

Blimey, this is good stuff you've got here. I do like Father Dougal's Big Book o' Bards.

Can't help feeling sorry for poor *England/Loegria/whatever though. At least it looks plausible that the north might yet keep the flame of civilisation alight, even as the south goes to rack and ruin (just like in real life).

[boynamedsue]

Blimey, this is good stuff you've got here. I do like Father Dougal's Big Book o' Bards.

Can't help feeling sorry for poor *England/Loegria/whatever though. At least it looks plausible that the north might yet keep the flame of civilisation alight, even as the south goes to rack and ruin (just like in real life).

Don't worry about Loegria, the Anglo-Saxons are at the same point in the North as they were OTL in 463. The North was lost to the Britons over about 50 years, from the fall of York around 570-580, to the battle of Chester in 616 or 626. DagdaTL *Wales will have different borders though.

[EvolvedSaurian]

It does and doesn't. The aristocracy remain culturally Irish,the common folk remain Brtish, but there's a lot of mixing and bilingualism and exchange of culture. Think OTL Norse Ireland or the Franks in Gaul.

So basically the Irish are going to become British (Or Saxon?)? Including religion?

I've got a sneaking suspicion that OTL was a lot more messy and confusing than people think too. But yes, it'll be pretty mad for a couple of hundred years.

Oh, it was confusing alright, even OTL. Probably anybody who's researched this era and area knows that.

Thanks to both you and TDS for your kind words. These bardic chapters are my favourites to write.

And very fun to read! :D

Wow, even with a dark ages POD and half of southern Britain already overrun by Germans, you still can't get a sucessful Séalios! :D

That's terrible. You should be shot for that pun.

[boynamedsue]

So basically the Irish are going to become British (Or Saxon?)? Including religion?



To an extent, but there will be Britons who become saxon too, just like OTL. It looks pretty certain that the founders of Wessex, and the family of Penda of Mercia were Britons who must have adopted Saxon paganism, probably before they adopted the Anglo-Saxon language.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

How much does the Bardic tradition evolve ITTL? Would it rest with them to be the first to record codify the theology of the Old Faith, or will that be responsibility be taken up by the new Druidic monastics?

And would the kings in either Ireland and Britain possess much control over the Druidic clergy, or would their positions be subordinated by the Druids at Armagh?

[boynamedsue]

In the early part of the fifth century, the traditional priestly class of Ireland faced a serious challenge from Christian missionaries. It wasn’t the Christians’ success at conversion that threatened the druids, as (with the exception of Saint Patricius’ noble flocks) the converts were initially concentrated amongst the lower social strata such as women and slaves.

The real danger the Christians posed was through their organsation. Monastic communities were founded close to the hillfort centres of power of Irish tribal confederations, and near the rathi (1) of prominent chieftains. They lent their services to these leaders in matters of organisation, tithage, tribute collection and agricultural improvement. Importantly, they also began to record information, including legal codes and details ownership and inheritance.

Irish druidry was at this time divided into three branches, the Bretanni, or keepers of laws, who administered trial by ordeal and were the guardians of legal knowledge, the Drii Tuathi who ministered to the commoners, and the Drii Righi, the kings’ druids, who fulfilled the ceremonial functions of a tribe. These branches worked on a master apprentice basis, without any formal hierarchy, so that the only structure uniting the druids were their ties to their teacher and the occasional unofficial druidic councils. As apprenticeship lasted 15 years, and typically a druid had only one or two pupils at any one time, the practice and application of druidry varied greatly from place to place.

In the face of this creeping Christian influence, around 440 the druids of the Avi Neilli confederation began to organise religious communities based on the successful model of the Christian monasteries. This development shouldn’t be seen as a purely druidic initiative: the rulers of this territory had become used to the presence of Christian scribes and tax collectors, and clearly felt their absence after the expulsion of Patricius’ mission. These centres of lore and learning were related to the sudden explosion in use of the Ogham alphabet, which had hitherto been a private code used mostly carving curses and blessings on sticks. Graves and memorial stones using this linear alphabet suddenly appear around 450, and sticks were replaced with narrow wooden boards called admadburlea as the preferred method of storing information.

Though the Irish were increasingly writing their language, what they were writing still largely comprised of personal names, toponyms, the names of commodities and simple phrases like “has given” and “made”. The spur for the development of the Tengua Sacriva, the written druidic tongue, was the Auxillian mission of 463-497. This last great campaign of Christian evangelism, which was led by bishop Auxillius of Roanes, reestablished monastic communities in the territory of the Laghinos confederation, which were used as bases for evangelism in the lands of the Mui and the Fenii. Concerned at this, the Techii Drii of the north sought to plant druidic schools in Laghinos.

These seedling Techii Drii needed reliable communications with their mother schools, so quickly began writing Ogham messages on hides, a technique developed by observing the Christians. The linear Ogham script quickly evolved into characters for practical reasons, and it can be safely said that the Druidic Alphabet existed in its rudimentary form by 480. The historical Danuadonos and the semi-legendary Mardenos have both been credited with this invention, whoever was responsible, it would be another thirty years before the druids began to commit their religious traditions to parchment.

In 493, Aillios Maqui Servomanani attempted to impose himself as King of the Laighinos, using Christianity as a rallying call to a segment of the coastal aristocracy who had converted under the influence of Auxillius. His success in 494 drove former leader Belachos and his followers to seek help from the Avi Neilli. The northerners, in alliance with the remaining Laighinos pagans, crushed Aillios in the battle of Dunos Aillinei (2). The Avi Neilli then conducted a species of pogrom, driving out and killing Christians, leading to an exodus of many Christian righi and their followersto the kingdom of Car Legion in Britain.

The last monks were expelled from the territory of the Fenii in 497, and Irish paganism was secure in its territory, the following years saw an increase in the number of religious sites, and an increasing occupation of Neolithic monuments and their cooption by the druids. The name Ansalérga (3) was almost certainly coined in this period, and had been adopted as the official denomination of Irish paganism by 510.

The development of Irish Paganism between 430-510 is the key to understanding the rapid political changes which took place in the 6th century. The discovery of writing and emergence of a bureaucratic priestly class was the catalyst for the evolution of tribal confederations into true kingdoms, and the concept of a High King as more than a ceremonial title. The codification of the Irish religion after 510 would have even more dramatic repercussions.

(1) Fortified enclosures
(2) Dun Ailline, Kildare
(3) "Our Path", a self conscious archaism by the druids

Thank to Lysandros for formulating the questions I needed to work out this installment, next up...some Gods.

[Domoviye]

Nice update as usual. I cannot wait to see what the Gods are like.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Good stuff:). Ansalerga sounds like a unique and original name for a future universal religion.

In the years to come, I take it these "Techii Drii" schools may be exported to the British kingdoms and elsewhere, perhaps ostensibly forming part of the diplomatic missions by the Avi Neilli(?).

Does Erainos Machai/Navan Fort in Armagh adopt quite the same significance to the adherents of Ansalerga as a Holy of Holies similar to Jerusalem and Mecca?

[Hendryk]

I'd neglected this TL lately but have now caught up with it. It's shaping up nicely.
In the face of this creeping Christian influence, around 440 the druids of the Avi Neilli confederation began to organise religious communities based on the successful model of the Christian monasteries.
I'm reminded of how, in China, Taoists started founding monasteries in imitation of Buddhist practices around the 5th century CE, whereas earlier on they had a tradition of solitary eremitism but none of monastic communities.

[boynamedsue]

Good stuff:). Ansalerga sounds like a unique and original name for a future universal religion.

In the years to come, I take it these "Techii Drii" schools may be exported to the British kingdoms and elsewhere, perhaps ostensibly forming part of the diplomatic missions by the Avi Neilli(?).

Does Erainos Machai/Navan Fort in Armagh adopt quite the same significance to the adherents of Ansalerga as a Holy of Holies similar to Jerusalem and Mecca?

Techii Drii probably will travel in some form, Armagh might be more of a Vatican. There will be centres for the cults of different Gods, think Hinduism intially, then we might see some changes.

[boynamedsue]

I'm reminded of how, in China, Taoists started founding monasteries in imitation of Buddhist practices around the 5th century CE, whereas earlier on they had a tradition of solitary eremitism but none of monastic communities.

Thanks for the feedback.

Was the Taoist development due to contact with Nestorians as wll, or just Buddhists?

*Edit*

[boynamedsue]

Pupil: Master, I know of the Gods, and their responsibilities and powers, but one thing puzzles me.


Master Enechuaglasos: And what would that be now?


Pupil: I’ve heard it said that they live inside mountains and lakes, or the otherworld, or the Blessed Isles, which is true? Where do they live?


Master Enechuaglasos: Inside mountains!
Dear Dagda of the Knowing, there’s a bag of white pigeons in it for you, if you can only see your way clear to knocking this boy’s skull with your club until he's half a brain on the inside of it. Have you ever dug a hole in a mountain, moni croi?


Pupil: No, master, I haven’t.


Master Enechuaglasos: Well you should try it. You’ll find rock and dirt.
And maybe gold, it’s said that Nuadaos of the Finding and Getting has a special love for the idiots.


Pupil: But… if they do not live inside hills, rocks, lakes and mountains, why do we venerate certain of them, and call them “Gobinios’(1) Forge” or “Eriu’s (2) Bath”? Are they not the abodes of our gods?


Master Enechuaglasos: In some cases they are, in others they are not. Take Bruo na Boinna (3), that really is the house of Boinna (4), or at least that part of it which can be seen in this world. But it is best to think of these places as doors.


Pupil: Doors to The Otherworld?


Master Enechuaglasos: You speak as if there were only one, but cutting a long story short, yes. The holy places of Ireland, the sacred hills, mounds, mountains and stone circles… They are all gates to the Tir Danuan, the lands of the Tuatha Dea Danuana. The Tuatha pass at will through these gates, and on occasion humans pass the other way, as is told in so many tales which you can never manage to recite correctly.


Pupil: Master, you say there is more than one otherworld?


Master Enechuaglasos: Sweet tears of Bebinna the beautiful! Did you think that the Fomorii came from a wee island near Greece where everybody’s got the head of a goat and can kill a body by looking at them funny?

There’s the world of the Tuatha, which is where most of our gods live, except Ogmios (5), Belos (6), Cerunnos (7), Turreannos (8) and the great queen Morrigana (9). Then you’ve got the world of the Fomorii which is an abnormal place altogether, cold, bleak, and bitter wrong. The world of Mananos and Liros has many gateways under the water, and on Man Island in the Eastern Sea. Then there are two worlds where the strange, foolish gods of the Germans live, and perhaps one for the Christians.

I’d say there must be hundreds of otherworlds, and they’re like… a tangle of serpents tied together head and tail, all touching each other at various points along the length of their bodies. The places where they touch are the hills and mounds and stone circles and lakes which we venerate.

Thank Danua, boy, that we were born in Ireland, where the world rubs up against the realm of the gods of the Tuatha who love us so well. That is truly the luck of the Irish.


(1) Gobinios, God of smiths and metalwork.
(2) Eriu, fertility goddess, encarnation of Ireland.
(3) Newgrange neolithic... marvel! County Meath.
(4) Boinna, goddess of the Boyne, associated with cattle.
(5) A god of wisdom and farming.
(6) Sun and light God.
(7) God of wild places and hunting.
(8) Sky God.
(9) Goddess of death and battle and rebirth.

[TheDarkMessiah]

H'mm another enjoyable new chapter, I trust that you are enjoying researching the mythology as much as I enjoy reading your take on it?

[boynamedsue]

H'mm another enjoyable new chapter, I trust that you are enjoying researching the mythology as much as I enjoy reading your take on it?

Loving researching and corrupting it... :)

You read it too quick, I was still editing and proof-reading when u posted!

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Techii Drii probably will travel in some form, Armagh might be more of a Vatican. There will be centres for the cults of different Gods, think Hinduism intially, then we might see some changes.

Would eventual Monotheistic thought, or a kind of streamlined Polytheism with special emphasis of a Supreme God figure with the other Gods representing aspects of supreme being or acting in subordinate roles, be an accurate outcome for Ansalerga?

There may not be quite the same reason for a "Viking Age" in this TL, but if this were to become an appealing alternative to Christianity in Germany and Scandinavia, I could see it being carried east along the trade routes of the Volga and Dniepr rivers. Also, if this faith serves to fully unify Ireland, future settlement in Iceland might be pioneered by Druids.

[Dan1988]

This is an interesting TL - reminds me a lot of the history of Hinduism.

[boynamedsue]

This is an interesting TL - reminds me a lot of the history of Hinduism.

Thanks Dan, mate. With polytheism hinduism is the model to follow, but it'll turn out very different in the end.

Other business: Have we got a release date for Kwando el Rey Nimrod yet?

[boynamedsue]

Would eventual Monotheistic thought, or a kind of streamlined Polytheism with special emphasis of a Supreme God figure with the other Gods representing aspects of supreme being or acting in subordinate roles, be an accurate outcome for Ansalerga?

There may not be quite the same reason for a "Viking Age" in this TL, but if this were to become an appealing alternative to Christianity in Germany and Scandinavia, I could see it being carried east along the trade routes of the Volga and Dniepr rivers. Also, if this faith serves to fully unify Ireland, future settlement in Iceland might be pioneered by Druids.

I've not quite decided where paganism will end up, I don't think it will be the same as Hinduism, in the sense that the gods are individuals and not generally aspects of one god. There will be a Dagda cult which reduces the role of other gods, but Ansalerga's heart is the idea of multiple "godworlds". The really strange offshoot will come with a rather unusual interpretation of reincarnation.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

So Dagda is the Lord of our world, with the faithful acknowledging the role of the Gods in certain places in the afterlife, or even foreign places in the material realm. But Dagda is the one God that matters most of the time? He becomes the Patron God and figurehead of the Irish.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Will the Techii Drii in time develop a formal hierarchy, or will the High Kingship of Ireland be in anyway co-opted to serve as the chief earthly representative of Ansalerga. A sort of symbolic, spiritual sovereign, perhaps?

[Dan1988]

Other business: Have we got a release date for Kwando el Rey Nimrod yet?

Still working on it (though I am making progress on certain areas, i.e. North America). With the way things are going, however, I'll have to be forced to start "publishing" Part II sometime in the new year. :( Unfortunate, yes, but this seems to be the most realistic.

[boynamedsue]

Will the Techii Drii in time develop a formal hierarchy, or will the High Kingship of Ireland be in anyway co-opted to serve as the chief earthly representative of Ansalerga. A sort of symbolic, spiritual sovereign, perhaps?

The High King will be strengthened by Ansalérga, it's probable that one of Ansalérga's main political functions will be in selecting the Ardrighos, but Ansalérga is not so unified that druids can impose any candidate that suits them.

The Techii Drii are grouped into mother/daughter schools, with 6 recognised "lineages" as of 850 AD (the high point of pre-schismatic Ansalérga). However, political considerations mean that some "lineages" often split from their parent group and act independently, especially when they are in a different kingdom. The supremacy of Armagh is generally recognised, the not submitted to blindly.

[EvolvedSaurian]

No news is good news, bns.

[boynamedsue]

No news is good news, bns.

Cheers, (I think).

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I know this question is a bit too far ahead to answer, given the infancy of the religion, but if Ansalerga were to spread and later schism into different "cults" or "denominations", would you think it a bit far fetched that the religion would gain followers from European nations as diverse and distant like the Slavic tribes, the Avars, the Bulgars, and the Germanic Lombards, Frisians, and Thuringians?

It think its too late for the religion to make any headway amongst the Catholic Frankish kingdoms, but there is some potential with the others.

[Geekhis Khan]

Could, if the Ansalerga *monks are as far-traveling and proselytizing as OTL's Irish Catholics. I'm assuming some form of hybridized Norse paganism remains, so there's a possible conduit to the east. Will we see Norse traders plying the Seas and Volga/Dnieppr ATL? Because that could serve as fast conduit for Ansalergan missionaries.

[boynamedsue]

Could, if the Ansalerga *monks are as far-traveling and proselytizing as OTL's Irish Catholics. I'm assuming some form of hybridized Norse paganism remains, so there's a possible conduit to the east. Will we see Norse traders plying the Seas and Volga/Dnieppr ATL? Because that could serve as fast conduit for Ansalergan missionaries.

Hi Geekis, I'm working on that. I think that Ansalerga will remain linked to the British Isles, and daughter cultures, but that it will have spin-offs and hybrid forms in other places.

[boynamedsue]

The Aengle sat regarding the cracked mosaic for a good long time. The waiting didn’t bother him much, the Frank and the Welshman were the ones out in the rain. He was happy enough to sit by the fire looking at the intricate tessellated pictures of beasts and gods. He wondered if there were still craftsmen on the island of Britain who could make mosaics such as these. Perhaps a couple in Lundincaestra or in the north amongst the Coelingas. He threw a log on the fire and examined a picture of a dwarf shooting a bridled stag. Strange subject matter, he thought, but perhaps it had been important to the witches. Religion was a funny business.

‘You liking it Wulfheric?’

The Welshman was standing in the doorway.

‘Not bad, Cunigno. What’s it about?’

‘No idea, you knows me and the boys is only bothered for Woden and your lot, now…though this is no Christian nonsense neither. The fellow as had this place was called Lirio, and was come from a family of Romans, so it’s likely be one of their gods. You can be asking him if you hasn’t killed him last year at Ratfeldh (1). And it’ll be go better if you calls me Merewalh (2). We don’t wants you be lookin’ like a Welshie in front of the Frank, do we? Though lots might say you was a Welshie as it is.’

Wulfheric glanced round to make sure they were alone, then answered the Welshman in his own language.

‘There’s a lot of good Aengle’s have Welshie mammies, illustrious Welshman. The ale’s on the bench, have a cup.’

****************

When the Frank had arrived, the spoils of the siege of Carlyr were divided between the victors. Carlyr would remain in the hands of Wulfheric’s Trentaingas, but the lands immediately to the south were ceded to the Merkfrankas, and those to the west to Cunigo/Merewalh and his Gewissae, who also took the greater share of treasure. All concerned were aware that there would almost certainly be a violent renegotiation of the terms very soon.

After Cunigno had left, the Frank, Ine, stopped a little while at the decaying villa to drink wine with his temporary ally.

‘What think you of Merewalh?’ Ine asked his host.

‘Brave, good in battle, a dangerous enemy and a generous host.’

‘Like a good Frankish prince! He follows our gods, does he not?’

‘He does, and yet… he is not an Aeng…’

Wulfheric looked up. The Frank’s eyes were fixed on him, his jaw clenched shut. In the old lands, there had been much bad blood between Aengle and Frank. Wulfheric suddenly remembered an old Saexon saying: ‘Our women we leave behind. Our bloodfeuds travel’. Had Ine been born in Britain? He wasn’t sure.
‘Yet he is not like us… he is not…’ The Aengle cast his around for a term that could express his affinity with the Frank. If one existed in the Aengle tongue, it escaped him. He finally hit upon the term his British mother had used indiscriminately to describe the Saexons, Aengles, Jutes and Franks.

‘He is not a Garman.’

Ine mulled this over, he had heard his British slaves use this word, but had assumed it meant merely "Lords". It seemed a fitting name.

‘You are right, he is not a Garman. For all he is friendly with our Garman nations, he is a Welshman.’

(1) Ratby, Leics
(2) "Illustrious Welshman"

[Mark-ITSOT]

I take it Carlyr is the former Ratae Coritanium/Corieltauvium. AKA Leicester ;)

[boynamedsue]

I take it Carlyr is the former Ratae Coritanium/Corieltauvium. AKA Leicester ;)

Well spotted, fast by Ratfeldh.

[Mark-ITSOT]

You're the second person to have an alternate Leicester feature in a timeline.

I never knew we were that fascinating :D

[boynamedsue]

You're the second person to have an alternate Leicester feature in a timeline.

I never knew we were that fascinating :D

Crossroads of England mate, tremendous strategic importance. TTL the Romano-British city held out for years in a chaotic borderland before finally falling to a Pagan alliance. I expect you went on a school trip to the Villa where the action took place, and you should probably recognise the mosaic too.

[Mark-ITSOT]

Actually I didn't.

*Feels deprived* :(

[boynamedsue]

Actually I didn't.

*Feels deprived* :(

http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-council-services/lc/growth-and-history/thewestend/romans/

There was a Roman Villa in Norfolk Street discovered in the 70's, I remember visiting when I was really young (1986?), but it seems it's not open to the public today. Perhaps it was closed to the public not long after its excavation. The goodies have been transfered to Jewry Wall museum.

[TheDarkMessiah]

I went to a villa once. It was in Lullingstone I think.

[boynamedsue]

I went to a villa once. It was in Lullingstone I think.

Sposed to be one of the best, that one.

[boynamedsue]

Extracts from the Gallic Chronicle

422: In this year Hermeric the Swabian laid waste from Aquitane to the channel. The Vandals cowered in their strong places, but the Magistrate Aetius met the Swabians at Campus Tutatis and drove them from Gaul. Also Bleda became King of the Huns and had submissions from the Franks at Aquae Colonium (1).
427: The Vandals of Aquitane swore fealty to Wamba the Goth, who was king at Toulouse. The Alan giant Belarya came into Bleda’s service. In this same year, Bleda purchased the Moorish dwarf Zercus. From this time forward, the king of the Huns would always ride to battle accompanied by a giant and a dwarf.
429: Ambrosius became magistrate of Gaul in the name of Rome. A grievous plague laid waste to the land.
431: The harvest failed north of the Cevenni hills (2). Famine. Witches were burned near Tours, irreligious acts were committed in other places.
432: Franks entered Gaul, causing much destruction. Magistrate Ambrosius was killed at Lutetia Parisorum (3).
434: Magistrate Aegidius drove the Franks from Gallia with the help of Britons. Armorica was forfeit to the Britons, and Voretimerus Artorius became their king.
440: Bleda came to Gaul, avenging a slight from the Visigoth Wamba. The Romans and Goths met the Huns at Auvernia (4). Bleda had the day, and took submission from Wamba. Aegidius was killed, and Ellac the Hun was made king of that part of Gaul which Aegidius had ruled. Many came with Ellac, so it became known as Gallia Franca.
443: The Bishops Sagidus and Arminius were martyred by impalement.
446: Ellac attempted to force submission from the Britanni of Armorica. He was driven from Armorica after the Battle of Venetis (5).
450: Saint Ermengilda is trampled to death by hunnish horses
454: Ellac besieged Voretimerus Artorius at Mons Mareduni (6), a promontory which the tide separates from Armorica twice a day. Ellac was at the head of an army of three thousand, Voretimerus, now an old man, had but 300 loyal warriors. After many months of siege, Ellac commanded an assault, aided by Voretimerus’ illegitimate son, the traitor Morderedus. The Britons made a great slaughter of the Franks and Huns, but were beaten. Despite his years Voretimerus himself killed a hundred men. Voretimerus’ son Gavinus Artorius then fell on Ellac at Abricatium (7) by surprise, killing him and destroying his army completely.
From this battle we get the expression “an Artorian defeat”, meaning a defeat in which the loser’s enemy is fatally weakened.
Apsikal became King of the Huns and Franks in Gaul.
460: Apsikal is baptized by Sigizmana. Bleda sacks Mediolanum (8), and is killed in battle by the Goths and Romans. His son Zolban becomes the emperor of Huns.
462: The Gepids rebel against the Huns, and defeat them in Pannonia. The West is free from the Empire of the Huns.
466: Apsikal is deposed by his cousin, the Pagan Theodismund.
470: Gepids pass through Gaul and Aquitania, on their way to Spain. Much slaughter amongst the Goths and Franks.
473: The laws of Franks and Gauls were imposed. From this year onwards, the native people were subject to the Franks.
474: Theodismund was succeeded by his son, Clothere. Clothere is a Christian.
489: Clotheric succeeded Clothere. The state reverted to Pagan Ways.
495: Clotheric was baptised by Auxillius.
497: Tolosa fell to Count Rothervech.
498: Rothervech deposed Clotheric. Woden ruled again.


(1) Aachen.
(2) Cevennes.
(3) Paris.
(4) The Auvergne.
(5) Vannes.
(6) Mont st Michel.
(7) Avranches.
(8) Milan.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Ah, it's back! Excellent!

498: Rothervech deposed Clotheric. Woden ruled again.

:D

[boynamedsue]

88212

Wallas/Britanni/Crutanni

1. Carluval.
2. Cravena.
4. Ebrauc
14. Durotriga-Durosaeta (British ruled teritory, with settlements loyal to Saexen)
15. Dufnein.
20. Pofis.
22. Carlegi.
23. Regllun.
24. Elfeda
26. Vododdini.
27. Lewoddiani.
28. Altcludi.
29. Selgovii

Garmanas/Germani/Sasanachi (With principal origins of ruling groups)

3. Berneichingas (Angles and Frisians)
5. Lindsia (Angles, Frisians and Geatas)
6. Iceningas (Franks)
7. Anglemerch (Angles, Burgundi)
9. Cantwearas (Jutes and Frisians)
10. Saesaexen (Saxons, Franks and Jutes)
11. Frankmerch (Franks)
13. Saexen (Saxons)
30. Norsaexen (Saxons and Angles)
31. Trentaingas (Angles)

Iwernas/Iwerddi/Gaedhali

16. Eriu
18. Mara.
19. Mareduno
21. Lainbihano


Mixed polities:

12. Belgen (British and Saxons, Germanic Pagan)
17. Gavinta (Irish and British, Christian)
25. Gewissae (British, Germanic individuals of various origins, Germanic Pagan)

[boynamedsue]

By 513, the Britons are in retreat all over the Southern lowlands of Britain. Where they survive as aristocracy, in the lands of the Gewissae and the Belgae, they are subject to Saxon overloads and have largely adopted Saxon culture. The great Latin metropolis of Londininium fell to the Norsaexe in 509, and was sacked so brutally that it no longer functioned as a trading centre with the continent. This worked in favour of the Cantwearas, already the richest state in Britain, who now have a near monopoly on trade with the Franks.

In terms of millitary power, the strongest kingdom of the South is Saexen. They possess good fertile land in the Thames valley region, and are overlords of Belgen, Durosaete, the Gewissae and Saesaexen.

The Garmanas are also making inroads in the North, but the powerful Kingdoms of Ebrauc, Carluval and Carlegi are not unduly worried by their advances: Lindsia and the Berneichingas are still tributaries of Ebrauc.

It is in these regions that Romanised urban life continues, side by side with the resurgent Celtic rural culture. Christianity remains strong south of the wall, but paganism has not been eradicated. The land between Hadrian's wall and the Pictish lands is still governed by a Pagan aristocracy, though there is a sizable Christian minority. Carlegi has received considerable immigration from Irish Christians, fleeing druidic hostility and violence. They are settled in the southern Pennines, the upper Trent and the Mersey region, strengthening Carlegi's borders but safely away from their compatriots in Lainbihano.

The Irish aristocracy of the West are still staunchly Pagan, but more tolerant of Christianity than their equivalents in Ireland. Apart from a single Techos Drii on Eilinos Monai (1) in Lainbihano, they are largely unaffected by the religious reforms underway in Ireland, maintaining a more conservative, less structured, version of Celtic Paganism. The druids of Irish Britain are often indigenous Britons, recruited from the rural areas in which paganism was never extinguished. This means that certain of the tenets of Ansalérga, especially the primacy of the Tuatha Dea Danuanna, are not followed by the Irish in Britain.

The most powerful of these Irish kingdoms is that of Eriu. The Maqui Cunobeli clan have united most of the Irish of southwestern Britain under their rule. From their capital at Gloui (2), they vie with the Saxons for control of the rich south-centre of Britain.

(1) Anglesey
(2) Gloucester

[TheDarkMessiah]

You killed London off :(

[boynamedsue]

You killed London off :(


Had to go, I'm afraid... I'll tell you what happened (bardicaly speaking) in a few days.

[boynamedsue]

From The Book of Mona (1), written by Glausos of the Laghin, 756 AD.

When Dunlòndin fell (2)the last of the Romans fled from these shores. This happened 247 years ago, in the year Cunechiglasos built the Techos Drii at Ivoanna (3).

And if you ask a druid what happened, they will tell you this: That the Britons of Dunlòndin took on Roman ways, and grew soft worshipping the Christ God. This offended the true gods of Britain, who forsook the Christians and allowed the Sasanachi to storm their ramparts, rape their women, and smash the skulls of their infants against the walls of their churches.


And if you ask the Sasanachi what happened, they will tell you this: That Thorun struck the highest tower of the city with his bolts, and that this was seen by the Norsaexe as a sign that they must break the spell of servitude that the witches of Lundencaestre had cast upon them. But Mula, their King, was enfeebled and impotent through bewitchment, so the assault was led by the great warrior Beowulf, who fought in single combat against Marc the Leper, Witch King of Lundencaestre. Despite the sorcery of the Lundenwichas, the Norsaexe prevailed, and Mula was restored to virility, so to father their brief dynasty.


And if you ask the Christians of Carleia (4) what happened, they will tell you this: That there were many great and saintly men behind the walls of Londinium. But that in their purity they did not realize that their Garman vassals were plotting against them, and so were overcome by treachery.

But that is not all.

If the Christians are sure that their priests are not listening, they will tell you this: That, six springs before the fall of Londinium, King Marc ordered the construction of a tower on the white hill (5). During the excavations, a jeweled box was discovered, inside of which was the head of Brano the Blessed, whom they wrongly believe to be the King of the fair folk. Brano warned them that if they did not rebury him, the island of Britain would fall to invaders within seven years. King Marc wished to obey him, but the bishop Geront flew into a rage, and hurled the living head into the Thames, where it sank without trace. Thus Marc was cursed with leprosy and the city was doomed.


But I have in my possession a certain book in the Roman tongue, which was sold to me by an unlettered fool who believed it to be a book of spells. I suspect it to have been taken from the lands of the Britons in Armorica during the raids of Ivoglano Ruadh thirty years ago, though it may have come to these shores as a result of some more recent act of piracy.


It contains the letters of Marc the Leper, last king of the Latins of Dunlòndin. I hereby commit them to writing in our language, in the name of Dagda-Of-The-Knowing and Ogmios-Who-Writes.



(1) Anglesey
(2) London
(3) Iona
(4) 8th Century kingdom
(5) Tower Hill, London.

[boynamedsue]

The Letters of Marcus Theodosius Londinensis (extracts)



To Bishop Sagidarus of Leodinum (489)


… which is why your reproach is both wounding and unjust. Since the fall of Noviomagus, I am the last Magistrate of the Christians south of the Trent, and so must do all in my power to ensure the survival of my people. If this means alliances with the Germanii against the petty tyrants of the north, then so be it. Trust me, dear bishop, if you knew these Britunculi hillmen like I do, you would not be so quick to call them ‘our brothers in Christ’. They would surely be heretics, if only they had sufficient wit to invent a heresy…

To Bishop Sagidarus of Leodinum (493)


… I thank Your Grace for sending the German priests I requested, as I thank a higher power for their safe arrival. With God’s help, they will surely bring my Saxoni and Angli subjects over to our true Christian faith. I rejoice at the news of the success of your evangelism amongst the Franks, God wills…

To King Clotheric of Gallia Franca (496)


My Lord, my master my brother in Christ… I implore you to send me warriors. I’m beholden to the Saxons to defend me from the Jutes, and the Jutes to defend me from the Saxons. This game can not last forever.

To Bishop Paulinus of Deva (501)


… despite the many past differences there have been between our two countries, we must now unite. Plead our case with your King, for divided, the Germanii will devour our Kingdoms one by one, in the north just as in the south. From the sea of Ireland to the sea of Britain, all shall be pagan. For now I’m allied with Aelle the Saxon, for only thus can I maintain my city free from the Jutes. But if we strike against Aelle together, surely the Gewissae will come over to our side, and create an alliance of the Britons. Plead my case before Malogucunus, I beg you.


To Bishop Paulinus of Deva (504)


Since we defeated the Cantwearas, it seems that Aelle has decided he no-longer has any use for us. Our own Germans are surly, and outside the walls they do as they please. They are Angles though and have no love for Aelle, thank God. I’m King of little more than the city, but king I am. We fortify, we drill, and we prepare. A strange illness is upon me. I fear it is Gods punishment.


To Bishop Paulinus of Deva (505)

… a man’s skull was found in the foundations of the southern tower, there were some strange reactions amongst the population. We live behind walls, it is to be expected.


To Bishop Paulinus of Deva (508)


Our Germans are gone over to the Norsaxoni. We garrison the walls with the militia, we have trained every man to use the spear and sword. We have archers. When they come, we may be able to supply ourselves from the river, at least until the gold is gone. The Franks are pagan again, I have written to the Armoricans.

We are beset by omens. ‘The Tower of Bran’ was struck by lightning. My grandson fell from the walls and is become an idiot. There is a plague of crows.

All the while I turn over our possibilities in my head. Perhaps we can make a deal with Wulfa of the Angles, then...

Leodinum- Liege
Noviomagus- Chichester
Deva – Chester, in Latin. It is by now Carlegi in colloquial British

[EvolvedSaurian]

I like the politicking, the pitting of the various Germanic groups against each other.

[boynamedsue]

I like the politicking, the pitting of the various Germanic groups against each other.

It almost certainly happened OTL. St Albans, London and Silchester lasted for ages as Romano-British entities surrounded by Anglo-Saxon tribal societies.

Silchester may have lasted until the 7th century. Imagine the drama, intrigue, and paranoia. A few miles north of Silchester, on a northfacing embankment, a fence was excavated.. along with several skulls, some still lodged on sticks. The implication is that they were marking a hostile boundary with the nucleus of the future Wessex to the north. It seems most likely that the Romano-Brits did the cutting, but we can't be sure.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I was wondering that in the wake of Ansalerga, a new kind of vocation that develops from the old Bardic tradition gives rise to a sort of itinerate preacher or ascetic, whom travels beyond Armagh, lives rough, and uses the ancient tales of the Gods and heroes to spread the word of Dagda. Would this kind of missionary be plausible?

[boynamedsue]

I was wondering that in the wake of Ansalerga, a new kind of vocation that develops from the old Bardic tradition gives rise to a sort of itinerate preacher or ascetic, whom travels beyond Armagh, lives rough, and uses the ancient tales of the Gods and heroes to spread the word of Dagda. Would this kind of missionary be plausible?

Yes, I think so. But it's being worked out as we speak, as part of my "well, we've got to get the fucking thing to 780" drive.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Yes, I think so. But it's being worked out as we speak, as part of my "well, we've got to get the fucking thing to 780" drive.

Why, what happens in 780?

Oh. Right. Excellent... :D ;)

[Jaded_Railman]

It almost certainly happened OTL. St Albans, London and Silchester lasted for ages as Romano-British entities surrounded by Anglo-Saxon tribal societies.

Silchester may have lasted until the 7th century. Imagine the drama, intrigue, and paranoia. A few miles north of Silchester, on a northfacing embankment, a fence was excavated.. along with several skulls, some still lodged on sticks. The implication is that they were marking a hostile boundary with the nucleus of the future Wessex to the north. It seems most likely that the Romano-Brits did the cutting, but we can't be sure.

Have you got any sources for this? I'm not doubting you, it's just wiki disagrees (wiki thinks London was abandoned by 450ish), but I'm very willing to hear alternative viewpoints, considering the complete lack of evidence from the period.

[boynamedsue]

Have you got any sources for this? I'm not doubting you, it's just wiki disagrees (wiki thinks London was abandoned by 450ish), but I'm very willing to hear alternative viewpoints, considering the complete lack of evidence from the period.

OTL London, probably 440-500. My fall of London was probably more apocalyptic than OTL. I suspect it was still inhabited sparsely by Britons, first as a Kingdom, then a Saxon vassal, then as a disorganised waste, until the buildings became dangerous. After that? The inhabitants might have moved out to Walworth (enclosure of the Britons/Slaves) and Camberwell (well of the Britons)

I'll look for the stuff on St Albans, Villa repairs were happening in the mid 5th century.

As to Silchester, I'll try and find the relevant stuff, it's really scattered, but fascinating. Though there was an excellent "meet the ancestors" BBC show about it a couple of years ago.

[boynamedsue]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/archaeology/excavations_techniques/city_dead_01.shtml

Here's the Silchester stuff, it gives the date of abandonment as "6th century". It seems to have been an evacuation at spear-point with a deliberate infilling of wells. The presence of Ogham inscriptions argues for a rather late abandonment, maybe 550-600.

The people bordering Silchester to the north were OTL's pagan Gewissae, led by the dynasty of the Celtic-named Cerdic. War between Germanic-Pagan Britons and Christian Britons? Quite possibly.

[boynamedsue]

Itinerary of Britannia and Hibernia: Johanus of Ravenna. (550 AD)

We arrived in Cornovia after daybreak on the first day of May, a time of great revelry amongst the Britons. Consequently the court of King Drusdenus was preparing for a feast, with much meat, drinking and dancing. As representatives of The Emperor of The Romans, we were quickly decreed guests of honour, allowed not just meat, ale and mead, but wine which is considered an exquisite and exotic luxury among the Britons!

The Cornovians clearly connect this day’s revelry with the fecundity of the Earth, and a certain degree of licentiousness on the part of the women is expected. I’m ashamed to relate that certain amongst our party, especially Solbanus of Cappadocia, took great advantage of this.

The summer court of King Drusdenus is located on a rocky promontory connected to the mainland by a narrow causeway, which makes it more easily accessible by sea than land. This place is called Duntagelum (1), and it is located on the northern coast of Britain’s southwestern peninsula. The kingdom which Drusdenus rules formerly consisted of the entirety of the Horn of Britain, and was called Dumnonia. However, it has recently been restricted to the western half of the peninsula by the depredations of the Garmanii and Hibernii.

The port of Duntagelum is often visited by boats from Gepidia and the Exarchate of Carthage, who trade for tin, gold, slaves, and good woolen cloaks. In the port a certain amount of vulgar Latin is spoken, but few men can converse beyond the necessary language of the marketplace. Thankfully, we had amongst our crew an Armorican and an Irishman, or we would have had much the worse of any bargains.

The palace itself is clearly designed principally as an impregnable fortress, but it is comfortably appointed, much as the house of a wealthy merchant of Constantinople. Drusdenus was a man of considerable education, and spoke grammatical Latin, albeit of an antiquated variety and with a heavy accent. I excised all vulgarity from my vocabulary and we were able to understand each other with difficulty.

After I presented him with the gifts sent by The Emperor, we conversed for a while. The King was very knowledgeable about the affairs of more civilized regions, and expressed surprise that we spoke Latin amongst ourselves not Greek. I explained to him that our Emperor Sabbatius was himself a Latin, from Dardania (2). He enquired as to the outcome of Count Julian’s campaign against the Gepids around the Pillars of Hercules. I told him, euphemistically, that peace had come to Gepidia, but that the Empire once again held the Balearic Isands. He asked what news there was of the battles with the Goths and Lombards in my native lands, and I answered, truthfully, that the Adriatic coast and Sicily was ours, but that the Barbarians still held Rome and the north.

We spoke of matters of religious doctrine for a while, with his bishop joining the conversation, somewhat gracelessly. Then he told me of the dire state of Britannia, of the heathen hordes across the river he called Tamaros, of the kingdoms overrun. I sympathised.

At the end of our conversation he leant forward and looked at me with child-like hope in his blue eyes.

‘But when are you coming back, brother Johanus? When are the Romans coming back?’


(1) Tintagel, incase you needed telling.
(2) Serbia/Herzogovena

[Geekhis Khan]

More excellence! You've managed to so capture the feel of the TL that I can easily get swept away into the world of it as if pulled aloft by Angus himself.

There is a plague of crows.

And then the delicious irony: The Tower falls when the black birds come to it! :D

[boynamedsue]

More excellence! You've managed to so capture the feel of the TL that I can easily get swept away into the world of it as if pulled aloft by Angus himself.



And then the delicious irony: The Tower falls when the black birds come to it! :D

Awww shucks... :o

I'm glad you noticed the crow thing, it makes chucking in the cookies worthwhile.

[boynamedsue]

Itinerary of Britannia and Hibernia by Johannus of Ravenna (550 AD)

Eriu


After the dire warnings of pagan savagery we had received at Drusdenus’ court, we were surprised to find the city of Gloui(1) to be considerably less barbarous than anything we had seen in the Christian’s own realm. The walled city, with its forum and well maintained stone buildings, gives off a familiar air of romanitas. But it is strange, sad Rome which the city recalls; a Rome subjugated by barbarians.

Eriu is the most powerful kingdom of the Scotii in Britain, ruling five cities and all the land surrounding the sea called Saferna. It is a state which has come into being very recently, and is ruled by the gens Cunobeli, a pagan Irish dynasty. I met with the King in his…

SECTION DAMAGED

…in the river!

Bishop Poricus received me in his villa outside the town, the opulence of which was a testament to the wealth of the Christians of Gloui. I was dressed in the clothes of a merchant, as one of the tasks I had been charged with was to discover the truth behind the accounts of persecution of Christians amongst the Scotii. This precaution seemed especially advisable given the rumours about the pagans’ predilection for sacrificing priests.

Immediately I revealed myself to be a deacon, and asked him of the conditions under which the Christians lived. He told me that the wealthy British citizens largely remained Christian, especially around Gloui and Carciren (2), but that the common folk were converting in droves to the religion of the Scotii of Eriu. The rustic people had, according to Poricus, never fully become Christians, and were now mired in their superstitions in ignorance of the Lord.

However, the Bishop was clear on the point that the Scotii kings of Britannia did not persecute their Christian subjects. Indeed, in the early days of the Kingdom of Eriu, Christians had zealously sought martyrdom by destroying pagan idols and groves. The tolerance of the Pagans was such that King Belotegus ordered that the zealots be housed in the monasteries to prevent attacks on them by his coreligionists. He also decreed that the Church pay for the reconstruction of the Pagan shrines which had been damaged. This expensive leniency immediately resolved the problem, as the Church was sick of paying for the keep of vain would-be martyrs, and sternly advised that seeking martyrdom was a sin.
Doctrinally speaking….

ILLEGIBLE

The religion of the Pagans in Eriu is somewhat different to that of Hibernia. Although both groups recognize the same gods, those which are most venerated in Britannia are unimportant in Hibernia. Conversely the tribe of gods which is most preeminent in Hibernia, the Dananni, are merely demi-gods in Eriu. Around Gloui there are groves dedicated to the gods Cerunus, who is Pan, Belus, who is Apollo, Lughos, who is Mercury, and Morrigana who is Nemesis. In the town is a temple to Sulla, a goddess of water worshipped only in Eriu, and to Liros, who is Neptune.

There is a school of druids in Gloui, called the tegdrii, but it is mostly a place for the druids of the surrounding area to hold their councils, although novices learn some lore there, before they are apprenticed. The druids are all men, but some of the temples are served by priestesses, and witches are common in the countryside. Human sacrifice is now rare, and when it occurs, it will usually mean the death of a secular criminal already sentenced to be executed. The pagans have found great success in gaining converts by hosting bacchanalian feasts several times a year, in which the faithful are given free meat and drink.
Thus men are led to hell by their appetites.

(1) Gloucester.
(2) Cirencester.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Damn interpretatio Romana.

Good section though.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

As Gloucester sits on the banks of the Severn River, I take it that the city may become the main conduit of the Irish and foreign trade into Britain, and could end up as a secular centre of administration and trade for much of the country in the future. Also from there, representatives of Ansalerga could pop up via the old trade routes that encompass southern Britain, Armorica, and Galicia in Spain. The Suebic Kingdom of Galicia, which endures until 584 CE, was probably the last Germanic-ruled state in the Iberian Peninsula which may have had a Pagan majority, other than the fact the their kings had been Christian since the reign of Rechiar between 448-56 CE. Plus, some Britons did immigrate to Galicia in this period IOTL. I like to see how the Techii Drii's catch on over there?!

[Hendryk]

However, the Bishop was clear on the point that the Scotii kings of Britannia did not persecute their Christian subjects. Indeed, in the early days of the Kingdom of Eriu, Christians had zealously sought martyrdom by destroying pagan idols and groves. The tolerance of the Pagans was such that King Belotegus ordered that the zealots be housed in the monasteries to prevent attacks on them by his coreligionists. He also decreed that the Church pay for the reconstruction of the Pagan shrines which had been damaged. This expensive leniency immediately resolved the problem, as the Church was sick of paying for the keep of vain would-be martyrs, and sternly advised that seeking martyrdom was a sin.
That's a clever way to curb the Christian enthusiasm for both vandalism and martyrdom. Hitting at the pocketbook, good idea :D

[boynamedsue]

As Gloucester sits on the banks of the Severn River, I take it that the city may become the main conduit of the Irish and foreign trade into Britain, and could end up as a secular centre of administration and trade for much of the country in the future.


You have picked up on my plan, but only partially. :)

All of those things are true but the kingdom of Eriu will only last until 723.



Also from there, representatives of Ansalerga could pop up via the old trade routes that encompass southern Britain, Armorica, and Galicia in Spain.


The tegdrii at Gloucester is not actually a Techos Drii of Ansalerga, but a Hiberno/British immitation, hence the compatible different pantheon (think of it as Angel to Ansalerga's Buffy). But there is contact and Ansalerga will arrive in Eriu, and at least become known on the traderoutes.


The Suebic Kingdom of Galicia, which endures until 584 CE, was probably the last Germanic-ruled state in the Iberian Peninsula which may have had a Pagan majority, other than the fact the their kings had been Christian since the reign of Rechiar between 448-56 CE. Plus, some Britons did immigrate to Galicia in this period IOTL. I like to see how the Techii Drii's catch on over there?!

I'm doing Spain now. I tend to think the Britons would be christian orientated, but at least it would be receptive soil. We will also see there, thanks to Valdemar's advice, the great Kingdom of the Gepids.

[boynamedsue]

Damn interpretatio Romana.


Yep, though at least my priest isn't following the later Christian pattern:

"Lughos, who is the devil! Cerunos, who is the devil! Danua, who...."

[boynamedsue]

That's a clever way to curb the Christian enthusiasm for both vandalism and martyrdom. Hitting at the pocketbook, good idea :D

I based it on the Bishops of Cordoba in the 8th century, who had to forbid their subjects from attempting to provoke martyrdom because it was too expensive. They did get martyred in that case though.

Also, I wanted to diminish christianity's popular appeal and leave it like late-Roman urban paganism, a refined cult of the upper classes. The cult of martyrs was a big draw for Christianity, fulfilling the need for local sacred/semi-devine personalities that monotheism found difficult to provide. Their absence weakens Christianity quite a lot in Eriu... it's not like I'm rigging the votes much ;)

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The tegdrii at Gloucester is not actually a Techos Drii of Ansalerga, but a Hiberno/British immitation, hence the compatible different pantheon (think of it as Angel to Ansalerga's Buffy). But there is contact and Ansalerga will arrive in Eriu, and at least become known on the traderoutes.

I guess that the topsy-turvy situation in Gaul might be advantageous for a brand of Pseudo-Ansalerga to germinate as well. Is TTL's ruling Frankish dynasty a different one to the Merovingians of Childibert and Clovis?


I'm doing Spain now. I tend to think the Britons would be christian orientated, but at least it would be receptive soil. We will also see there, thanks to Valdemar's advice, the great Kingdom of the Gepids.

So, the Gepids replace the Suebi in northern Spain altogether?! As former Hunnish vassals, they might not be under pressure to adopt Christianity, as Iberia would be well out of reach of Constantinople, and even the Arian Visigoth's control of their own dominions is still tenuous.

[boynamedsue]

So, the Gepids replace the Suebi in northern Spain altogether?! As former Hunnish vassals, they might not be under pressure to adopt Christianity, as Iberia would be well out of reach of Constantinople, and even the Arian Visigoth's control of their own dominions is still tenuous.

The Suebi are still there, and the Visigoths. But the Gepids also have land. I won't give too much away, but I dropped a few hints in the "Cornovia" section of Johanus' travelogue. The huns are now out of the picture in the West, so the Gepids have free reign. I'm not sure what to do with their religion yet, but Arianism is a possibility.

[Mark-ITSOT]

I read on a certain website that the name "Pretanni" means "People of the forms"

Who'd have thought that our love of pointless bureaucracy went back so long ago!? :confused: :eek:

[EvolvedSaurian]

(think of it as Angel to Ansalerga's Buffy)

A more 'mature' humorless version with some of the same characters?

Yep, though at least my priest isn't following the later Christian pattern:

"Lughos, who is the devil! Cerunos, who is the devil! Danua, who...."

You make a good and funny point. :D

[boynamedsue]

88730

All hail Gepidia.

[boynamedsue]

. Is TTL's ruling Frankish dynasty a different one to the Merovingians of Childibert and Clovis?



Yes, the Franks were subjugated by the Huns for 30 years, with a Hunnic ruling cast imposed. When the Franks shook them off, it was a completely different group of nobles in charge.

That's why we have a higher Frankish presence amongst the *Anglo-Saxons.

Mark ISOT: Where did you get the Pretanni thing from? It conjures up images of a giant Druid Housing Benefit Office (Henge Benefit?)

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I can see that Gepidia may end up challenging the naval supremacy of the eastern Romans as the Vandal Kingdom had done, if that also occured in this Timeline as well.

[Mark-ITSOT]

Yes, the Franks were subjugated by the Huns for 30 years, with a Hunnic ruling cast imposed. When the Franks shook them off, it was a completely different group of nobles in charge.

That's why we have a higher Frankish presence amongst the *Anglo-Saxons.

Mark ISOT: Where did you get the Pretanni thing from? It conjures up images of a giant Druid Housing Benefit Office (Henge Benefit?)

Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_%28disambiguation%29) from Pritani = People of the Forms (cf. Welsh Prydain, 'Britain', pryd, 'appearance, form, image, resemblance')

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_language_(Celtic)

[EvolvedSaurian]

Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_%28disambiguation%29) from Pritani = People of the Forms (cf. Welsh Prydain, 'Britain', pryd, 'appearance, form, image, resemblance')

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_language_(Celtic)

'Painted Ones' was the meaning I've always heard.

[Malta Shah]

I think I forsee a Celtic Union :D

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Is this TL's Emperor Sabbatius the same person as OTL Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus (Justinian the Great)? And will his armies succeed in destroying the Ostrogoths here as well?

[boynamedsue]

Is this TL's Emperor Sabbatius the same person as OTL Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus (Justinian the Great)? And will his armies succeed in destroying the Ostrogoths here as well?

No, he's been butterflied away. He's an analogue though, a family of Dardanian Latin-speaking rustics who've made it to the purple. The Byzantines only have toe-holds on mainland Italy, but the Exarchate of Carthage was taken back from the Vandals quicker TTL, as they had been weakened by the Huns and Gepids.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Hypothetically, if the Ansalergi/British-Angle Druids were to "missionize" in northern Germany, and came across representatives of the Avar Khaganate in the late 500's-early 600's, how long would you say it would be before these Druidic emissaries are eventually accepted on the Khagan's permanent staff?

[boynamedsue]

Hypothetically, if the Ansalergi/British-Angle Druids were to "missionize" in northern Germany, and came across representatives of the Avar Khaganate in the late 500's-early 600's, how long would you say it would be before these Druidic emissaries are eventually accepted on the Khagan's permanent staff?

Not long at all. But, as of now Ansalerga isn't a proselytising faith, though that might change. I'm thinking about the Techos Drii, why would it move beyong "Celtic Space"... oh it will in Britain, but Europe might take time.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Not long at all. But, as of now Ansalerga isn't a proselytising faith, though that might change. I'm thinking about the Techos Drii, why would it move beyong "Celtic Space"... oh it will in Britain, but Europe might take time.

I reckon that there would be an commercial incentive to build ties and assert influence over the more powerful states of western and central Europe. But I think they do need to come up with some sort of theological motivation to extend the Techos Drii organizational model to non-Celtic cultures.

Could an official analogy be made between the Irish Fomoiri and the Germanic Jotuns, which could be identified as a common source of evil in the world?

If the Druids of Ireland and Britain were to infiltrate Germanic tribal societies in an effort to create friendly relations with them, is it possible that they would gain knowledge of the local traditions through discourse with the shamans, and so the syncresis of both the local religion and the new doctrine would involve the Druids claiming to speak on behalf of Aesir Gods, while simultaneously refering to them by their Celtic equivelants in their chronicles? They could lend structure to the Germanic religion, and put themselves in a position to change it from within. And their Tegdri could grow as part of a new state apparatus which the king relies on, making him less dependent on the not-so-certain loyalties of his thanes and ealdormen.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Could an official analogy be made between the Irish Fomoiri and the Germanic Jotuns, which could be identified as a common source of evil in the world?

Chaos, not necessarily evil. Lugh's half Fomorii and Loki's all Jotun, although he does go rather evil towards the end.

[Geekhis Khan]

Chaos, not necessarily evil. Lugh's half Fomorii and Loki's all Jotun, although he does go rather evil towards the end.

I always thought the shift towards evil was a result of Christian influence, aka the "Satanification" of Loki from stock Trickster God to Great Evil One. But then again, far from my area of expertise... :o

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Ansalerga begins as a counter-revolutionary measure to preserve the traditional culture of the Irish Pagans, but concerning the central themes or tenets of Ansalerga, what could be gleaned from Celtic Mythology to transform it into universal force? What facets of its character could be amplified in such a way to make it more conceptionally attractive over a wider cultural and social spectrum? Would the concept of spiritual transmigration for the rightious be appealing enough?

What subjective aspects could be attached to the doctrine of Ansalerga and its daughter-cults to give it an actively competitive edge? Something that would motivate its followers to fight for, other than material gain. Something which extolls them to perform deeds that would surely admit them into heaven.

[EvolvedSaurian]

I always thought the shift towards evil was a result of Christian influence, aka the "Satanification" of Loki from stock Trickster God to Great Evil One. But then again, far from my area of expertise... :o

Well, the whole tricking Hod into killing Baldr is rather an amplification of the former aspect into the latter, I've always thought.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Chaos, not necessarily evil. Lugh's half Fomorii and Loki's all Jotun, although he does go rather evil towards the end.

Perhaps one of the key tenets of the Ansalergi Revolution is to bring order and stability to a world slowly descending into chaos.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Perhaps one of the key tenets of the Ansalergi Revolution is to bring order and stability to a world slowly descending into chaos.

Perhaps bringing order to the chaos of post-Roman Britain? :D

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Perhaps bringing order to the chaos of post-Roman Britain? :D

Whole world in general, as far as they're concerned. As time goes on, some group of high-ranking Druids would make a number of revisions of theology that may put them on the offensive.

If Ansalerga strenghens the office of Ard Ri na-hEireann, perhaps the concept of a powerful secular overlord, whom is divinely ordained to both protect and enforce the faith, could be transmitted abroad as well.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I suppose the Ostrogoths aren't quite long for this world, but would Lombards in Pannonia be compelled to migrate into Italy in TTL? Assuming that they do, I expect that either Arianism or Catholicism would be more likely adopted among them. But if they are firmly in league with the Avars, or allied with the still-Pagan Franks, and if they won't accept missionaries from Rome or Constantinople, that leaves some room for certain opportunities. At the least, enclaves could be established in northern Italy if Christian rule there becomes negligable before the 700's CE.

The Burgundians in southern France seems to be the only sufficiently Catholic state in western Europe ITTL 500's, but they have the Arians in the south and the Pagans in the north to worry about. What hints would you give to their future?

[boynamedsue]

I suppose the Ostrogoths aren't quite long for this world, but would Lombards in Pannonia be compelled to migrate into Italy in TTL? Assuming that they do, I expect that either Arianism or Catholicism would be more likely adopted among them. But if they are firmly in league with the Avars, or allied with the still-Pagan Franks, and if they won't accept missionaries from Rome or Constantinople, that leaves some room for certain opportunities. At the least, enclaves could be established in northern Italy if Christian rule there becomes negligable before the 700's CE.

The Burgundians in southern France seems to be the only sufficiently Catholic state in western Europe ITTL 500's, but they have the Arians in the south and the Pagans in the north to worry about. What hints would you give to their future?

Sorry it's taken so long to answer, xmas holidays...

The Arian heresy is something I'm working through at the minute, you'll get more info in the next 5-6 updates. I've decided that a final Frankish conversion is inevitable by 550, but that's a long time after OTL, and we are looking at a much less convincing conversion in Germanic speaking areas that Gaulish and Gallo-Latin areas. The Germanic area of the Frankish kingdom is much less convincingly tied to Christendom than OTL.

The Byzantines are quite strong in the Italian peninsular, but the North and East are in the hands of Goths, the Lombards probably will still invade. This is due to their geographical position at the end of the Steppe Domino Effect, someone nasty on horseback will push them into Italy sooner or later.

[boynamedsue]

From Historia Gepidorum by Isidorus Benfandalus (7th century)

… but the third boat from the island of Scania was slower than the other two. So when the last of the three tribes of Goths arrived in the lands to the north of Europe, those who had come before them mocked them and called them “Gepidae”, which meant slow in their language. This insult was the root of their hatred of the Fair Goths (1) and the Intrepid Goths (2), and much blood has been spilled on account of it.

The Gepids settled on an island in the river Vistula, called Wizla in their language, but for many years they lacked a king. One day, a virgin named Freiga was swimming in the river when she was assaulted by a water-monster. From this union were born King Fasta, ancestor of all the kings of the Gepids, and Grendelsaethei, the ancestor of a tribe of demons who have made great mischief over the centuries.

A letter from King Fastagara of The Gepids to Emperor Marcian II. (462 A.D.)

…for I am the conqueror of the Hun-king Zolban, and all that was his is mine. His lands are mine, his gold is mine, his horses and his women are mine too. Even his skull is mine, and from it I drink the wine of Pannonia. Thus I demand, in the name of Almighty God, and his son Jesus Christ (who are of similar but different substances), that we be recognised as heirs to the Empire of the Huns, and paid such fealties, homage and remunerations as were owed to the same.


Fastagara Emperor of the Gepids.

Emperor Marcian II to the messenger bringing the above message.

‘Tell Fastagara that when my neighbour’s dog went mad and tore its master’s throat out, I did not recognize its title to his property. I had it put in a weighted bag and thrown into the Bosphorus.’

From Historia Gepidorum by Isidorus Benfandalus (7th century)

So being driven from their homelands by the Greeks and the Fair-Goths, the Gepids wandered for thirteen years, under the leadership of king Merogils. And they did great hurt and burning in Gallia Franca, amongst the Burgundians and upon the Intrepid-Goths. And they settled finally in the Province of Betica (3), taking it from the Goths and Alans in the year of Our Lord 476.

From The Song of Merogils and Marzen – Unknown author, written down in the 8th century. Relates to events in 484.

Merogils the mighty,
Gold-Giver, Blood-Drinker, Trek-Leader.
Wrote to Marzen,
Joke-Maker, King-Killer, Oath-Breaker,
And said this,
My emperor, the dogs have taken all of
Mauretania.
But there aren’t bags enough to drown
these war hounds
In all your Roman dominions.

(1) + (2) Which Goth's which? Answers on a postcard
(3) Roughly Andalusia, but including Murcia and bits of Portugal

[boynamedsue]

533 A.D. Letter from Ana Zenus to her husband General Flavius Belatus Sabatius

Dear Sabatius,

I pray this letter finds you well. Thanks be to God, myself and the girls are safe and in good health.

I’m so very proud of you.

On the streets there are players acting out your battles in Africa, one of the most popular ones is called ‘Sabatius, the conqueror of Carthage’. They always show you wearing a most heroic uniform, with purple trimmings I might add!.

Everywhere one goes here, one hears talk of the battle of Douga… and all of it describing you as the hero. My Sabatius, the toast of Constantinople! That’ll teach Drusilla. The next time she laughs at your Greek, you should… I don’t know… chop her head off like she was a wild Vandal or something!

There is one problem though, I know you are allied with these Gepid barbarians, and you are ever so short of men. But the Cappadocians are making capital out of this by spreading the most horrible stories. Now, I know you’re not a Barbarian-lover, and your family really are terribly nice people, but with your background we can’t afford talk like that.

That’s why it would probably be an awfully good idea if, when you take the last Vandal city at Oea (and it really must be you and not Nestor), you leave your funny little Gepids in Carthage. People are still a little bit touchy about Mauretania, even after all these years. And it will just look so much nicer if it’s real Romans finally liberating Africa from the Vandal heretics.

Maybe you could make an example of some of the Vandals? Mass executions, a big sack, maybe more slaves than usual… I don’t really know much about that sort of thing, but I’m sure you’ll think of something. We need everyone to know you’re tough on Arians.

Be careful my love, I need you.

All my love

Your ever faithful Ana.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I would say the "Fair-Goths" are the Ostro's, and the "Intrepid-Goths" would be the Visi's.

As you may have read about by now, I was wondering about the possible aspects of Celtic/Germanic spiritualism that could be used to give Ansalerga a new tendency to proselytize.

[Domoviye]

From Historia Gepidorum by Isidorus Benfandalus (7th century)
A letter from King Fastagara of The Gepids to Emperor Marcian II. (462 A.D.)

…for I am the conqueror of the Hun-king Zolban, and all that was his is mine. His lands are mine, his gold is mine, his horses and his women are mine too. Even his skull is mine, and from it I drink the wine of Pannonia. Thus I demand, in the name of Almighty God, and his son Jesus Christ (who are of similar but different substances), that we be recognised as heirs to the Empire of the Huns, and paid such fealties, homage and remunerations as were owed to the same.


Fastagara Emperor of the Gepids.

Emperor Marcian II to the messenger bringing the above message.

‘Tell Fastagara that when my neighbour’s dog went mad and tore its master’s throat out, I did not recognize its title to his property. I had it put in a weighted bag and thrown into the Bosphorus.’



I really, really like the response. If only we had more diplomats like that nowadays.
Glad to see the update, I've missed it.

[boynamedsue]

I would say the "Fair-Goths" are the Ostro's, and the "Intrepid-Goths" would be the Visi's.



Spot on, Austro-, Proto-Germanic root meaning shining, whose meaning has survived in Gepid as 'blond', Visi- a root meaning valiant or brave.

The West-Goth/East-Goth folk-etymology never caught on among the Gothic-speaking Gepids, so the Latin author is translating the Gepid terms which reflect the true etymologies of Ostrogoth and Visigoth.



As you may have read about by now, I was wondering about the possible aspects of Celtic/Germanic spiritualism that could be used to give Ansalerga a new tendency to proselytize.



The trigger for proselytism is something to do with the god-multiverse theory meshing with Ansalérga's invention of a script to record druidic Irish. The spread to the Germans is going to start very soon, as a consequence of the common tradition of sacred visions.

It's all worked out, but I'll leave it at that for now, because there's 3 updates coming soon detailing these developments.


I really, really like the response. If only we had more diplomats like that nowadays.
Glad to see the update, I've missed it.


Cheers Dom, hope you enjoy the next few.

[boynamedsue]

Itinerary of Britannia and Hibernia by Johannus of Ravenna (550 AD)

What we expected of Hibernia was not what we found.

It was late in the year when we arrived at Lughos (1), which is in the Kingdom of Midhos. Its name means “The Centre” in the Irish language, though it stretches nearly to the northern tip of Hibernia, and its rulers are called the grandsons of Neillus.

All our expectations were that the winter in the far north would be cruel, but we were relieved to find it to be no worse than the winters of Italia. Certainly, there was much wind and rain, and the days were unnaturally brief, but there was nothing like as much snow as falls on the Goths in Mediolanum (1).

We came to this place because we had heard that the King of Midhos, Dovaidus (2), was the Emperor of the whole island, and several others further north. While this turned out not to be the case, as the title Ardrighos Eirani is largely ceremonial, Dovaidus is without doubt the most powerful of the Hibernian kings. Only the kingdom of Laghinos refuses to pay him tribute, and even the Atacotti, who live on the coasts and islands facing the northern part of Hibernia, send him slaves, woolen cloth and wax.

Dovaidus was away fighting in Connachta when we arrived, so we were forced to remain at a Pagan monastery near Lughos for four weeks. Ireland, until recently, had no cities. But around some of these monasteries, larger settlements are beginning to form. The monastery was a complex of stone buildings built around a central covered forum or temple, housing around sixty priests and their families. At the entrance one can find a most hideous arrangement of shrunken heads atop some kind of altar.

The pagan priests are far more learned than their counterparts in Eriu, and have two alphabets; one for carving on stone, and one for writing on parchment. They write a great deal, and conduct many duties for the king. Amongst them, there are scholars, judges and seers, only the seers may be women. In addition there are lay-folk and slaves who conduct manual labour for the priests.

Naturally I spent most of our time with the scholars, discussing their theology as much as possible without revealing my priestly condition. I faced this task with the greatest of seriousness, as the future conversion of the Hibernians may…


PAGE MISSING


… the seers are actually travelling to the heaven of their people! It seems to me that they are suffering from some kind of madness or demonic possession, brought about by the potion they call ‘God-path’, or Dealerga.


The priests were evidently interested in our religion, though their questions often missed the point entirely. They were very interested in the physical position of heaven and hell, and seemed obsessed with the exact location of their gates. Though they were dismissive of the idea of the purely spiritual nature of our Lord the Father and his Kingdom, they did not reject the existence of Christ and the Saints, which I found surprising.

The priests, or druadi as they are known in Hibernia, were fascinated by our maps and charts, so much so that the cartographer Nicodemus was enjoined to remain in the temple as we moved up-country to Tara.


(1) Milan.
(2) Dobhaidos Maqui Connali

[boynamedsue]

To the Wise and Venerable Druadabelios, Arddruada of Ivoanna (1)

Cousin, I send you this letter to present my nephew Artocados maqui Subhini. I commend him to you with the most sacred of purposes, for he is part of the great project which we Brothers of Ardmacha (2) have recently undertaken.

Artocados is the finest of our Nicodemi, and as such I have charged him with charting the locations of those doors to other realms which can be found on the islands between Centir (3) and Luimnu (4). He will record those places where Dealérga has been successfully undertaken, and those others which are known or suspected to be gates. Wherever possible these untried gates should be tested by an experienced Seer, so as to be sure they are true gates, and to see which of the Domuni (5) they lead to. You are to facilitate all the practicalities for the successful completion of these ceremonies.

It is forseen that Artocaodos will travel to the new Techos Drii at Eivistos (6) during his mission, so as to better assess the shape and locations of the northern islands. A pilot familiar with those waters should be provided.

I need hardly tell you how important this mission is. Once the charts of the northern islands are drawn, we will see if it is true that gates to the domun of the Tuatha Dea Dananna reduce in frequency as one travels away from Ireland. Perhaps too we will discover whether the domun of Liros is truly next to the realm of the Tuatha, as Tuertos believes, or if it is inherent to all seas as Cunobranos sustained.

There is so much to learn about the nature of the Domuni!

A final note of reassurance my cousin: Do not worry for those gates which may lead to the Deep World or to the Domun Fomori. The most terrible sacrifice has been made in triplicate, so as to protect those seers who have to walk dark paths in search of the truth. Artocados chose the girls himself, from those he had known as a child.

Yours in the brotherhood of our House.

Arddruadamor Cetoclachos


(1) Iona
(2) Armagh
(3) The Mull of Kintyre
(4) Lewis
(5) Worlds, or planes of existence.
(6) South Uist

[Domoviye]

I like the direction this religion is going. Very accomodating but very single minded at the same time.

[boynamedsue]

Tamelis (1) – Kingdom of the Gewissingas, 556 AD


The prisoner looked round the long hall nervously. From the side-benches the faces of a hundred Garman warriors and elders, regarded him with suspicion. On a raised dais at the head of the hall, sat on a great oak throne was the King, flanked by a greybeard and a richly dressed young man. He supposed the youngster to be the King’s son, as he shared his wiry build, dark hair, and alert green eyes. Behind the throne was the royal standard, a fox’s head on a field of blue, and an arrangement of golden plates, some from the time of the Romans, others with more modern designs, especially serpents, foxes and the geometric designs beloved of the Irish.

His captor and the men on the dais were conversing in Garman, with occasional exclamations from the sides. He could speak no Garman, but the gestures and tone of these interventions told him that many there would have him dead. He shuddered, and instinctively adjusted his grey robe to cover both his shoulders. After an eternity, the King spoke with finality, silencing the hall, and all eyes turned to the prisoner.

His captor, Aelftrun, jabbed him in the leg with the butt of his spear and spoke to him in British.

‘You speak King now, bastard wizard. King want hear bastard wizard.’ Which caused a ripple of laughter, evidently there were those in the hall who found the quality of Aelftrun’s British amusing.

‘Will the King understand me? I can’t speak Garman.’ Expectant silence, the prisoner suspected he had made some kind of error of etiquette. Then the King spoke.

‘I am Ceredig son of Creoda son of Merewalh, king of the Gewissingas. And my British is considerably better than yours, Irishman. Who are you?’

‘I am Ivobran son of Gililiro, of the tribe of the Avi Alilos in the kingdom of Laghinos. Druid of the House of Linbolgòs’ The king nodded, as if this answer confirmed something he had stated earlier.

‘So, Druid, why were your comrades building a fortified town on a hilltop right next to the border of my lands in the vale of Saferna (2)?’

‘It is no fortress my king, it is a…’ Ivobran searched for a British translation of the phrase techos drii ‘House of druids. We were building it on land granted to my house by the King of Eriu.’

The greybeard now spoke, his voice fierce.

‘So as to make spells against us for the Irishmen in Gloui (3)!’ The room filled with shocked murmuring as seven or eight different people started to simultaneously translate this remark for their comrades.

‘No my lord, we improve the land and keep records for the king, and study Ansalérga, our religion. We do not practice much magic.’

The king spoke again.

‘So are you a scribe or a farmer, druid?’

‘No, my lord,’ Ivobrano weighed his words carefully. He thought of the story of Setanta, who thought he was cunning. He’d lied to the Dagda about how many fish were in his bag, and was cast into the underworld at the Gate of Cruchanos (4) for it. ‘I don’t know the British word for what I am… I am a man who can see.’

Another murmur went round the room. The young prince spoke up.

‘You see the future?’

‘Sometimes, but more often I go to the lands of the gods, to ask them questions and find what omens can be seen there.’

There was uproar in the hall, which the King silenced with a shout in Garman.

‘You claim you can visit the gods of your people?’

‘Yes. The reason your men caught me was that I was… god-walking when they came to our druid house. My brothers must have been warned of Aelftrun’s approach. But a man who is godwalking must not be disturbed.’

The king held a brief conversation with Aelftrun, then turned back to the druid.

‘Why were you at the Circle of Saferna when Aelftrun found you?’

‘We may only godwalk in those places where the godworld and our world are close together, we call them gates. These places are often lakes or stone circles, or buildings of the old people.’

The King and the prince looked at each other, both clearly havng the same realization at the same moment.

‘Could you godwalk to the lands of our Garman gods?’ Asked the younger.

Ivobrano weighed his options. Again the truth was best.

‘I think so, if we can find a gate, and the herbs and mushrooms I need to make… the potion I use to godwalk.’

‘Mother Heldot will hell help you with the potion, you have one week. Then we shall all take a trip to Penwodenes (5).’

The king nodded to Aelftrun, and the prisoner was led out of the hall to the sound of a hundred Garmans excitedly babbling.


(1)Tamworth, Staffs
(2)Severn valley
(3)Gloucester
(4)Cruchain cave, Meath
(5)Wednesbury hill, Staffs

Letter from King Cerdig of the Gewissingas to Arddruada Brochinigos

… your brother Ivobranos, who is writing down this letter to my dictation, has been of great help and service to me these last three years, and has brought us many messages from Valhalla and other domuni. I should like to offer your house lands at Lyrcaestre(1) and Penwodenes, to build two techii drii of the kind are found in Ireland…

(1)Leicester

[Geekhis Khan]

And Germanic Paganism finds a new outlet. Sweet. :D

[Hendryk]

The priests were evidently interested in our religion, though their questions often missed the point entirely. They were very interested in the physical position of heaven and hell, and seemed obsessed with the exact location of their gates.
While they have their own logic in asking this question, the issue of the physical location of Heaven and Hell was one that many Christians pondered throughout the Middle Ages. Many a Christian did believe that the gates to both places physically existed on Earth, and the narrator of The Divine Comedy finds the entrance to hell right here in this world.

[EvolvedSaurian]

So it's going to be a Germanic adaptation of the Irish way, not full on conversions? That's interesting.

[boynamedsue]

While they have their own logic in asking this question, the issue of the physical location of Heaven and Hell was one that many Christians pondered throughout the Middle Ages. Many a Christian did believe that the gates to both places physically existed on Earth, and the narrator of The Divine Comedy finds the entrance to hell right here in this world.

Of course this is the case (probably a little more so than I thought about when writing this ;)), but the burning theological questions for Johannus would have been the nature of the trinity, the monotheism/polytheism debate and probably original sin (prepared as he was to find Pelasgians in the strange northern isles).

This passage could be read (looks round shiftily) as saying they were talking about things he didn't find important, and ignoring what he considered vital questions of cosmic importance.

[boynamedsue]

So it's going to be a Germanic adaptation of the Irish way, not full on conversions? That's interesting.

It's the only way, I think. Montheism's beauty is that it doesn't require a lot of thought when converting:

"There's no God but X, all the rest are a set of wankers, who'll cause you to spend a lot of time burning."

Really simple concept.

Adopting a pantheon takes a lot more effort, even the Romans didn't manage to do anything apart from graft their own Gods on to local equivalents or have them worshipped along side local Gods.

Ansalérga's force is not its Gods or theology, but its institution (techos drii), its alphabet, its ability to avoid conflict, and the technical development of the "Dealérga" potion and training.

[God'sDentist]

Just wanted to say how much I've been enjoying this thread. Great blend of research, clever speculation, and (most important, to my mind) clever and skillful writing. Heartily subscribed.

With regard to dealerga - how ASB is this going to be? "Real" travel between worlds, or potent visualization, or some Terrence McKenna-ish combo of the two? Oddly enough, I think I'll be fine with or without magic - in fact, I'll be fine even without a clear answer to my question. Just put me down as intrigued.

[Valdemar II]

It's the only way, I think. Montheism's beauty is that it doesn't require a lot of thought when converting:

"There's no God but X, all the rest are a set of wankers, who'll cause you to spend a lot of time burning."

Really simple concept.

Adopting a pantheon takes a lot more effort, even the Romans didn't manage to do anything apart from graft their own Gods on to local equivalents or have them worshipped along side local Gods.

Ansalérga's force is not its Gods or theology, but its institution (techos drii), its alphabet, its ability to avoid conflict, and the technical development of the "Dealérga" potion and training.

Yes this is a lot more like the development of Hinduism, where Indu-European religeous structures was adopted by the Dravids. I think we will see the Gothes join the Druids religeous structures, the question are what religeous lingua franca they end up with, I think Garman* will end up dominating thanks to it stronger position compared to Irish, through local rites will likely stay in local language.

**Linguistic I think Garman will be closest related to Low Frankish (Dutch and Flemish) rather than Friesian like English thanks to the Frank settlers and the continued contact with the Franks (as in OTL).

[Geekhis Khan]

Just wanted to say how much I've been enjoying this thread. Great blend of research, clever speculation, and (most important, to my mind) clever and skillful writing. Heartily subscribed.

With regard to dealerga - how ASB is this going to be? "Real" travel between worlds, or potent visualization, or some Terrence McKenna-ish combo of the two? Oddly enough, I think I'll be fine with or without magic - in fact, I'll be fine even without a clear answer to my question. Just put me down as intrigued.

Well, he didn't post this in the ASB board, so I'm assuming that it'll be a meditative/hallucinatory/hypnotic practice more along the real life Vodou "Loa Crisis" than any sort of ASB or magical realism element.

[God'sDentist]

Well, he didn't post this in the ASB board, so I'm assuming that it'll be a meditative/hallucinatory/hypnotic practice more along the real life Vodou "Loa Crisis" than any sort of ASB or magical realism element.

I trust that you're correct, GK, and that would certainly suit my own (skeptical) frame of reference. My point, if I had one at all, was more along the lines that I'm willing to follow BNS' timeline even into ASB territory, if need be. And after all, if he chooses to write from the perspective of a seer, the travel to other worlds will likely be presented as quite real.

[boynamedsue]

I trust that you're correct, GK, and that would certainly suit my own (skeptical) frame of reference. My point, if I had one at all, was more along the lines that I'm willing to follow BNS' timeline even into ASB territory, if need be. And after all, if he chooses to write from the perspective of a seer, the travel to other worlds will likely be presented as quite real.

Thanks for that, it means a lot to me that people enjoy reading this. As to dealérga, Geekis is dead right, it is a halucinatory practice, whose adepts are trained to guide and then interpret their visions within the framework of Ansalérga. It is aided by a potion whose composition I'm researching at the moment, as various Welsh and Irish texts lead me to think that both cultures might have used such practices OTL.

Though, if I had time, I would now split the story into one ASB one, and this realistic timeline.

[boynamedsue]

Just wanted to say how much I've been enjoying this thread. Great blend of research, clever speculation, and (most important, to my mind) clever and skillful writing. Heartily subscribed.



I'd just like to say how much of that research has been dependent on people like Valdemar, ES, Lysandros, Geekis and Hendryk asking me questions and making comments. So thanks lads.

[Domoviye]

Thanks for that, it means a lot to me that people enjoy reading this. As to dealérga, Geekis is dead right, it is a halucinatory practice, whose adepts are trained to guide and then interpret their visions within the framework of Ansalérga. It is aided by a potion whose composition I'm researching at the moment, as various Welsh and Irish texts lead me to think that both cultures might have used such practices OTL.

Though, if I had time, I would now split the story into one ASB one, and this realistic timeline.

I'm glad you're keeping it real. Making it mystical mumbo-jumbo would definitely detract from the timeline.

[boynamedsue]

I'm glad you're keeping it real. Making it mystical mumbo-jumbo would definitely detract from the timeline.

I think your right Dom, ASB is really hard to do well.


Yes this is a lot more like the development of Hinduism, where Indu-European religeous structures was adopted by the Dravids. I think we will see the Gothes join the Druids religeous structures, the question are what religeous lingua franca they end up with, I think Garman* will end up dominating thanks to it stronger position compared to Irish, through local rites will likely stay in local language.

**Linguistic I think Garman will be closest related to Low Frankish (Dutch and Flemish) rather than Friesian like English thanks to the Frank settlers and the continued contact with the Franks (as in OTL).


As you know, language is something I think about a lot in this TL.

The language of Ansalérga is Tengua Sacriva, an extremely conservative version of Primitive Irish, it's a written language (using its own alphabet), but is only spoken by druids in ceremonial situations or formal contexts. In 600 AD it is still just about comprehensible to the Irish-speakers of Ireland, where it anchors informal speech so it is much more conservative than OTL. In Eriu and the Irish colonies on mainland Britain, Irish has evolved closer to where it was OTL, as the Tengua Sacriva influence was weaker prior to 550.

The Gewissings are a mixed Brito-Garman group, who have largely adopted Garman culture. However, their Garman has been very structurally influenced by British and contains many more loan words than any attested OTL Anglo-Saxon dialect. Its noun case sytem has undergone a massive simplification, paralelling that which is happening in British (similarly to OTL). This will be the first none Celtic dialect the druids use, with texts by 585 at the latest (in the Irish alphabet of course).

Garman proper looks more like OTL Anglo-Saxon, though dialectically divided slightly differently, and with a very strong Celtic substrata in the dialect of the kingdom of Saexen, due to the influence of the Belgae. There are more Franks, but also more Frisians, so the balance is more or less the same, after dialect levelling, the whole thing sounds very much like OTL but with a few more Celtic words and a few less Latin

The outlier is the Frankish of the Iceningas (Norfolk and Cambridgeshire areas), which has not undergone the process of dialect levelling, as it was a purely Frankish kingdom, was settled earlier, and is isolated on its Western border by swamplands inhabited by largely monolingual Britons (albeit ones with little political organisation).

There is no great problem of comprehension between the three Garman dialects, but there are three clear linguistic frontiers between Icenfrankisch, Garmanisch, and Gewisgarmanisch.

In the Ansalérga context, Gewisgarmanisch will have the most importance, as it is the first to be written down using the Irish script.

[boynamedsue]

Letter from Ardnicodemus Artocados to his brother Subhini maqui Subhini. 576 AD.


…when our uncle sent me to Ivoanna (1) thirteen years ago. My apprentices now have apprentices of their own, and their work surpasses my own!


But finally, thank the Dagda and his cunning artifice, it is finished.

The Liberos Cartani (2) contains charts of the greatest possible accuracy, covering all the islands from Centir (3) to Limhu (4) and the adjacent coasts of Tir Crutini (5). All known doors are included and described, along with not just the name of the Domuni to which they lead, but descriptions of the territory which a dealérganach (6) might encounter upon his arrival in this-or-that otherworld.

These maps and descriptions comprise the first 39 double pages of the book, and are followed by items of use to those of our brothers responsible for navigation. They are maps designed to aid sailing between the islands, including those hazards and fickle currents which cause so much calamity. Amongst these is my proudest creation, a fold-out map of all the islands in conjunction, four times larger than any other in the book.

After this, I have included charts relating the relative positions of three island groups which are within the domain of the king of the Picts. The first are the Insi Orc, which are just north of the cape of that name. They are many and populated with powerful warriors. Far to their north are the Insi Cath, which is a territory of quite wild men, those dark Picts who retain the older of the two Pictish languages, and are found also on the mainland in the territory of Cath. The last are islands even further to the north, are called the Fetlari. Their only inhabitants are those banished from Tir Crutini, though in summer Picts sometimes go there to hunt birds. I have never visited the islands myself, but the brothers at Ivoanna feel the Fetlari would be a good place for a Techos Drii.

The last page relates the position of an island described by two Limhu men who were driven far northwest of their course seven years ago. They called it a land of fire, which leads me to believe it may be close to the Domun of Gobinios. I would have left this out of the book, due to its doubtful provenance, but it reminds me of a story I heard once from an Elin Balor (7) man, so I decided to keep it.

The book is well bound in man leather, and the parchment is of the highest quality...




(1) Iona
(2) Book of Maps
(3) Kintyre
(4) Lewis
(5) Pictland

(6) "God-walker"
(7) Tory Island

[Domoviye]

GAH! Man leather! I would not want to read that boook.
On a more serious note, the Dagda seem to really like maps. Is cartography going to advance more quickly than OTL as Dagdans run all over the world charting out the portals and doors?

[Geekhis Khan]

You'll never reach the Necronomicon! You'll die in the graveyard before you reach it!



Seriously, though, good update! And thanks for the nod. You're more than welcome. Keep it coming!

[boynamedsue]

GAH! Man leather! I would not want to read that boook.
On a more serious note, the Dagda seem to really like maps. Is cartography going to advance more quickly than OTL as Dagdans run all over the world charting out the portals and doors?

The "bound in human skin" thing has always held a special place in my list of horrors, and he need to make the "Dagdans" a little unpleasant to stop myself wanking them.

Almost certainly yes regarding cartography, it is something that will have much more time and energy devoted to it than OTL.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Does the fallout of this "godwalking" ritual involve the monopoly on the cultivation of "magic mushrooms"?

As for the Franks, I take it the ones settled in the northern territories would remain Pagan, whereas some in the south take up Christianity. And the throne of the Frankish Kingdom could be contested in the future between both Christianized and Pagan dynasties.

[Geekhis Khan]

Damn it, did BNS get himself banned? :(

Please tell me you're messing with us. I miss this TL.

[Jaded_Railman]

Does the fallout of this "godwalking" ritual involve the monopoly on the cultivation of "magic mushrooms"?

I'm waiting for LSD to be invented 1,500 years ahead of time :p

[TheDarkMessiah]

Damn it, did BNS get himself banned? :(

Please tell me you're messing with us. I miss this TL.

He asked for IAN to ban him because he was wasting too much of his life on this site. Which is a shame, this is a great TL

[Geekhis Khan]

He asked for IAN to ban him because he was wasting too much of his life on this site. Which is a shame, this is a great TL

Alas, Boyo...get thy life in order an' come back to us when you can do so safely. :(

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

He asked for IAN to ban him because he was wasting too much of his life on this site. Which is a shame, this is a great TL

Aaaaawwwwwww....... Damn it!

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I'm bumping this out of forlorn nostalgia.

[Shevek23]

I'm thanking you for doing so as it is interesting.

Though I'm reminded of The Far Side cartoon, "Hell's Library."

The shelves are full of books of "Story Problems," you see.

[Cú Raghnaill]

Good work good idea and good writing their will be huge changes not only for Ireland.

If Lughos is in Louth the Kingdom is Ciannnactha unless your referring to when Connachta invaded most of Uladh and North Laighin/Midhe.


We have loads of information on the old religion our books the Annals of the four masters, Book of Lecan, book of invasions and a whole lot of others cover bits on the ancient religion although written by Christians their is still a lot of information, most of what we know about Celtic religion is not from Greek and Roman but Irish Mythology(if the Irish are Celts) Gaelic religion anyways. Some of this religion might have lasted up until the early 20th century as a sub religion the Fairies, anybody in Ireland would have heard stories of the Banshee(Bean Sidhe) and a whole lot of other superstitions, the fairy folk, the butter robbers, changelings and so on. Recent studies show this may be a very corrupt and deformed version of the old religion, it was a 2nd belief system outside of the church until early 1900's.