Timeline Classifcation

[Boto von Ageduch]

I started a little wikipage on timeline (and discussion) classification:

http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/alternate_history/timeline_classification_project

That may make it easier to find threads referring to a certain time or PoD.

Thoughts?
Criticism?
Commitments to contribute? ;)

[Jasen777]

Well, the big chart looks interesting.

We already have a listing of timelines: http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/timelines/timelines_and_scenarios

And a listing of commonly discussed PODs: http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/pods/pods

[Thande]

Excellent idea, it dovetails rather spookily with a secret project I'm currently working on.

I've added a few of our bigger TLs to the table.

[Boto von Ageduch]

Thanks for your additions and your corrections, Thande.

@Jasen: Yes, I know about the two parts of the wiki you mentioned.
The collection of PoDs cosists of a few events which have a remarkable variety of potential aftermaths; moreover, the list is commented.

The timeline list encompasses those projects with an individual wiki page,
i.e. usually the few rather elaborate timelines in this forum.

In the "Timeline Classifcation", hardly any information is provided other than the link to the forum. It is merely an index, a work of reference, not a description.
But in exchange, it has room for small timelines and open-ended discussions, because filling in another link does not take a lot of time.

Summing up, the PoD and timeline lists are small boxes of chocolate truffles,
while with the "Timeline Classification" I had in mind a large high rack of basic food. ;)

[Jasen777]

Sure, I didn't mean you that you shouldn't continue - I just thought it might be easier initially to look at the existent info on the wiki rather than searching the forum for new things to put in the chart.

[Thande]

One advantage this new system has over the existing wiki resources is that it organises our TLs by date of POD, like how Uchronia.com does it. And everyone likes a big table.

[MNP]

I started a little wikipage on timeline (and discussion) classification:

http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/alternate_history/timeline_classification_project

That may make it easier to find threads referring to a certain time or PoD.

Thoughts?
Criticism?
Commitments to contribute? ;)
The Link to Raptor of Spain goes to ISAAC'S EMPIRE!!! This is simply an observation.

Btw, I much prefer this list to the others, because my TL is on it in name only. :D Uh, I mean, because I like having all the information in chart form for easy comparison. I think this list rocks.

Also under effects you can put "Shurat replaces Shiaism as a major denomination of Islam, West Africa becomes Christian."
There will be some big ones later but I can't spoil for now.

[Boto von Ageduch]

Thanks for your hints and your commendation, MNPundit.
I'll remember the errors at my next editing visit. Meanwhile, you are of course invited to help yourself and change that line, insert more TLs of yours, and of other people ...


As to "effects": I think it's best to give one or two of the FIRST major changes in the TL to happen.

[Jasen777]

Someone snuck a Chinese one in on you. I think it'd be cool to have one chart for everything anyways (with subcharts as wanted). If that's possible and the sheer size doesn't cause a traffic jam on the information superhighway.

[MNP]

Thanks for your hints and your commendation, MNPundit.
I'll remember the errors at my next editing visit. Meanwhile, you are of course invited to help yourself and change that line, insert more TLs of yours, and of other people ...


As to "effects": I think it's best to give one or two of the FIRST major changes in the TL to happen.
Hmm... "Charlemagne Is Never Crowned Emperor" would be the biggest one early on. I feel really uncomfortable doing edits on stuff that relates to me, it's the wikipedian in me. One reason I don't have a profile! I'll keep the rest in mind though. That format has made more sense to me than digging through the other pages. Not to knock on other people, it's just a better fit for the way I organize stuff in my own head.

[Boto von Ageduch]

@ MNPundit:

Changes are done. There you go.

Thrown in a couple of new threads as well.

@Fortyseven: Thanks for contributing.


I feel really uncomfortable doing edits on stuff that relates to me, it's the wikipedian in me. One reason I don't have a profile!


This is an argument I can understand totally. Maybe you can insert someone else's timeline instead. HINT! HINT!


Someone snuck a Chinese one in on you. I think it'd be cool to have one chart for everything anyways (with subcharts as wanted). If that's possible and the sheer size doesn't cause a traffic jam on the information superhighway.

Um, so that's your preference?

When the table gets too unwieldy, I was planning on creating a page with links to several such tables, separated according to region, and if necessary, also time.

Beside the Emperor of China, DoD does not have a European PoD either.
I don't like to put a TL alone in an empty table, but two is company.

[Jasen777]

Um, so that's your preference?

Yes, but it's a wiki you don't have to what I say obviously...

When the table gets too unwieldy, I was planning on creating a page with links to several such tables, separated according to region, and if necessary, also time.

I meant have that and also one mega-chart (if practical).


I don't like to put a TL alone in an empty table, but two is company.

Might just be better to create the empty tables for the regions you intend at the beginning. If you make one for the Americas (or North America, whatever) I'll put some tl's in it.

[Boto von Ageduch]

I meant have that and also one mega-chart (if practical).


I would like to have it that way if we could build a real database.
But as it's only independent text, we would have to maintain all separate files,
and I am sure they would diverge.
That defeats the purpose of it somehow.



Might just be better to create the empty tables for the regions you intend at the beginning. If you make one for the Americas (or North America, whatever) I'll put some tl's in it.

OK, I had thought splitting is always easy. But I see your point that starting early is an advantage.

[The Kiat]

The PoD in my AHN Universe came later than 1568. It had to do with the Netherlands not dividing among religious lines like it did in our universe.

Just had to nitpick. :D

[Boto von Ageduch]

The PoD in my AHN Universe came later than 1568. It had to do with the Netherlands not dividing among religious lines like it did in our universe.

Just had to nitpick. :D

Right you are. Please be so kind and correct the PoD date and PoD description in the wiki, willya? You might cut and paste the line for your timeline a bit further down in case the actual PoD comes later than 1588.

EDIT: I set up a quick poll to catch the prevailing opinions on the topic:
http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=2880002

[Jasen777]

I would like to have it that way if we could build a real database.
But as it's only independent text, we would have to maintain all separate files,
and I am sure they would diverge.
That defeats the purpose of it somehow.

That's a fair point.

[Boto von Ageduch]

Currently holding 67 items. When will we hit 100??

[Thande]

If we do have to split the table, I think it would make much more sense to split it by POD date eras (like the timelines pages already are) rather than region - after all most big timelines may have a POD in one region but that doesn't mean they will stay concerned with that region. Also the Europe and North American pages would get absurdly bigger than all the others.

[Boto von Ageduch]

Boy, the poll couldn't have ended more ambiguously.
So I think we should try to keep one table as long as possible - let's check what our wiki is able to take ...

So I removed the (ever ignored) heading with the "Europe" stuff in it and replaced it with something more general.

[LordInsane]

Boy, the poll couldn't have ended more ambiguously.
So I think we should try to keep one table as long as possible - let's check what our wiki is able to take ...

So I removed the (ever ignored) heading with the "Europe" stuff in it and replaced it with something more general.
Hm, blast, forgot to vote for 'by time-period'... in any case, it seems you forgot to remove the 'for Europe' requirement.
The table existing below is meant for Europe and vicinity. For other continents or mega-regions, feel free to make a copy of the table and add it to this page. PoDs with doubtful assignment to a continent would then best be added to both tables.

[Boto von Ageduch]

[I]t seems you forgot to remove the 'for Europe' requirement.

Right, it's gone now.

Again, let's fill the page to the brim, until loading it takes ten minutes!

[Boto von Ageduch]

Currently holding 67 items. When will we hit 100??


Thanks to all contributors ... the 75 mark is cracked!

Special thanks to Thande who rounded it off.


So let's go ahead !!

Btw, the current score is 79.

[Boto von Ageduch]

Currently holding 67 items. When will we hit 100??


Thanks to all contributors ... the 75 mark is cracked!

Special thanks to Thande who rounded it off.


So let's go ahead !!

Btw, the current score is 79.

[MNP]

Is it too late to organize them by century?

[Boto von Ageduch]

'tis never too late, my son ...

No, it would be easy since the table is sorted by year anyway. However, we did not agree at all on the split criteria, so the compromise was to keep it together in one chunk as long as possible (i.e. until it takes 10 times as long to load as other pages).

And btw, by century seems to be too fine a partition to me.

[Lord Grattan]

I just added my "Double Vacancy" short story/TL to the list. I'll add my "Course of Human Events" TL later (unless someone could add it sooner that is). Great work guys!

[MNP]

'tis never too late, my son ...

No, it would be easy since the table is sorted by year anyway. However, we did not agree at all on the split criteria, so the compromise was to keep it together in one chunk as long as possible (i.e. until it takes 10 times as long to load as other pages).

And btw, by century seems to be too fine a partition to me.
Could be. How about by 500 years?

It always seemed nuts how AH put the dividing line at 1900. I think Ian was smoking something pretty wild on that one.

[Thande]

It always seemed nuts how AH put the dividing line at 1900. I think Ian was smoking something pretty wild on that one.
Er, why? If you look at the number of posts in each forum, they're roughly equal, which is obviously the definition of a sensible split. Post-1900 actually has more threads and posts than pre-1900.

[Susano]

Er, why? If you look at the number of posts in each forum, they're roughly equal, which is obviously the definition of a sensible split. Post-1900 actually has more threads and posts than pre-1900.

Damn WW2. Personally Id also say that 1800 (or maybe even 1789) would make more sense, purely historically, but as you say experience has shown that 1900 works better.

[Thande]

Damn WW2. Personally Id also say that 1800 (or maybe even 1789) would make more sense, purely historically, but as you say experience has shown that 1900 works better.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting it's equitable in an idealist sense (I agree there is too much focus on WW2) but it makes sense based on how interests break down in the real world.

[MNP]

Yeah, I'm not suggesting it's equitable in an idealist sense (I agree there is too much focus on WW2) but it makes sense based on how interests break down in the real world.
How does creating two forums where posts are equal make sense on the internet? Why wouldn't you subdivide the longer time frame for easier search-ability and keeping a TL on the first page longer before it falls off? Space is not at a premium online. What's the value in having subforums with equal numbers of posts?

How is it a sensible split? :confused:

[Susano]

How does creating two forums where posts are equal make sense on the internet? Why wouldn't you subdivide the longer time frame for easier search-ability and keeping a TL on the first page longer before it falls off? Space is not at a premium online. What's the value in having subforums with equal numbers of posts?
Avoiding cluttering in the large rforum? Yes, space itself is not the problem - its funcitionality/searchability/browsability.

[DrakeRlugia]

I was surprised that my TL was on there without me putting it on there. :D Whoever did that, thanks. I changed the date of the POD and what the POD was, as it wasn't quite right (the main point is Miguel da Paz surviving, although his mother as well is important too), I also added the effects, an essential Iberian Union in the early 16th century, not forced by conquest.

[MNP]

Avoiding cluttering in the large rforum? Yes, space itself is not the problem - its funcitionality/searchability/browsability.
Yes, that's exactly why you'd want sub-forms divided by years instead of one big Pre-1900 lump.

[Nikephoros]

Yes, that's exactly why you'd want sub-forms divided by years instead of one big Pre-1900 lump.

Agreed. I don't like Medieval subjects (My favorite, BTW) mixing with Nappy, American Rev, Taking over Canada, etc.

[Boto von Ageduch]

I was surprised that my TL was on there without me putting it on there. :D Whoever did that, thanks. I changed the date of the POD and what the POD was, as it wasn't quite right (the main point is Miguel da Paz surviving, although his mother as well is important too), I also added the effects, an essential Iberian Union in the early 16th century, not forced by conquest.

You're welcome. ;-)

From my experience, putting things in with the best of my (superficial) understanding
and letting for the authors to correct it if needed proved to be an excellent way of
adding to the database ...

Actually, I think the database is different from the "timelines" section on the wiki.
In "timelines", authors provide material themselves, and - of course - do some
advertising by this.
The "database" should provide an overview what was already discussed on the forum,
with respect to a certain point in time. Everybody wins if there is a wider variety of information available.
So feel free to insert anybody's timelines, even if you haven't followed it far beyond the PoD. And of course: Give us more links to discussion threads, because they frequently contain valuable thoughts about course and causalitiy of events.

[vultan]

Huh, I didn't know my little rambling counted. :rolleyes:

[MNP]

Can I just say this was such a great idea?

[Amerigo Vespucci]

I've begun to add to it, because I was considering creating something along this line to mirror Uchronia.net.

[MNP]

Added for Raptor of Spain to the wiki. I can't figure out where to put the link in the Classification project so if someone who won't screw it up like me, add it please?

http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/the_raptor_of_spain

[Thande]

Added for Raptor of Spain to the wiki. I can't figure out where to put the link in the Classification project so if someone who won't screw it up like me, add it please?

http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/the_raptor_of_spain

You didn't assign it to a namespace, it should be [[timelines:the raptor of spain]]. I'll convert it for you and add the link to the classification grid. EDIT: Done.

[MNP]

You didn't assign it to a namespace, it should be [[timelines:the raptor of spain]]. I'll convert it for you and add the link to the classification grid. EDIT: Done.How come you removed it from where it was originally? Can you explain the name space requirement because it's something I obviously missed.

http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/timelines/the_raptor_of_spain

New link, thanks btw.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

Thande, I didn't assign namespaces to any of the items I entered ... what's the difference?

[Thande]

How come you removed it from where it was originally? Can you explain the name space requirement because it's something I obviously missed.

http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/timelines/the_raptor_of_spain

New link, thanks btw.

Thande, I didn't assign namespaces to any of the items I entered ... what's the difference?

Because nothing will link to anything else properly. Look at Atom's Blank Map directory as an example because he entered those wrongly but in the end there were too many to fix: they're all structured as though they were external links, meaning you get that Earth symbol everywhere and they go by a really circuitous route which slows things down.

[MNP]

Because nothing will link to anything else properly. Look at Atom's Blank Map directory as an example because he entered those wrongly but in the end there were too many to fix: they're all structured as though they were external links, meaning you get that Earth symbol everywhere and they go by a really circuitous route which slows things down.
For the record, I like the Earth symbol and wish it was everywhere.

[wilcoxchar]

I hope I added Union and Liberty correctly, it looks okay on the page.

[othyrsyde]

yo if anyone wants to add my TL (Time of Crows), the POD is in 1775.

[RMcD94]

I looked at the table and thought that perhaps a Discussion Column and a Timeline Column would be good.

Edit: Also, what does "D" mean in the first column?

[Boto von Ageduch]

"D" is a discussion which is not easily classified as "What If" or "How". Shouldn't be used too frequently.

What do you mean by "What If" column?

[Sargon]

Just to let you know that I've fixed a bit of a glaring oversight: the Project page was an article in isolation - meaning no one could find it when going from Start Page to the Timelines and Scenarios page in the wiki, and would only know about it from this thread or by doing a search in the wiki. So I have now added it as a link in that section. Hopefully more people will notice it and add more stuff. ;)


Sargon

[Boto von Ageduch]

It wasn't exactly isolated - there was and is a link from the Alternate History start page.
But your link may turn out to be quite useful if one doesn't know the page. Thank you!

[Sargon]

It wasn't exactly isolated - there was and is a link from the Alternate History start page.
But your link may turn out to be quite useful if one doesn't know the page. Thank you!

Ah, I didn't even see that as I sort of assumed it'd be on the Timelines and Scenarios page given what it's called after all. Apologies old chap. :o

Come to think of it, the Alternate History page could do with some reorganisation itself as it is pretty long and could benefit from being categorised a bit more intuitively and have a menu of links at the top rather than just a massive alphabetical list.

Still, at least the chances of people finding it have now doubled. :p


Sargon

[Boto von Ageduch]

Come to think of it, the Alternate History page could do with some reorganisation itself as it is pretty long and could benefit from being categorised a bit more intuitively and have a menu of links at the top rather than just a massive alphabetical list.
Sargon

This is just true.
I have thought about it, but unfortunately I don't understand many of the items on that list;
that makes it hard to classify them. But even more generally, I think I ought not interfere
with wiki entries I don't understand.


<Philos>
(Actually, an essential part of life seems to be telling the "I-don't-get-it-so-leave-it-alone" things from the "I-don't-get-it-so-discard-it" ones.)
</Philos>