View Full Version : Franco-Spanish Grab Bag
January 8th, 2004, 04:49 PM
Start in 1500:
1) Make Spain, France and Portugal one nation.
2) Make these three countries be divided between Germany and Britain.
3) Make them divided between Italy and Scandinavia.
4) Make at least ten nations (comparable size) out of this area.
5) Make then divided East-West instead of North-South.
June 1st, 2012, 11:42 PM
To start you should have the French win the war of spanish Sucession, but have Portugal remain part of Spain.
That won't quite do; the Portuguese Restoration War (1640-1668) predates the War of the Spanish Succession (1702-1714) by quite a bit, so Portugal is already independent before the latter begins. Furthermore, if the French win the latter that puts a Bourbon on the Spanish throne, but does not unite Spain and France.
1) Philip II inherits the Portuguese throne in 1580, per OTL, uniting the two countries in his person. Then the Huguenots led by Henri of Navarre trounce the Catholic League and seize Paris in 1585, killing Henri III in the process (a). Since the latter is childless the succession devolves on Henri of Navarre. The Catholic League, appalled at the possibility of a Protestant king, appeals to Philip for aid. He shelves his plans for an invasion of England and invades France from Spain, Italy, and Flanders in the spring of 1586, supported by the surviving forces of the Catholic League.
Henri does his best, but by winter Paris has fallen to the Army of Flanders led by the Duke of Parma and he is forced to flee south with his remaining troops. Philip then 'persuades' the Catholic leaders to offer him the French throne by threatening to withdraw his troops and recognize Henri as the legitimate king if they do not accede to his wishes. They consent on the condition that it is a purely personal union similar to that of Spain and Portugal. He agrees and is crowned in Paris on December 15th as Philip VII of France.
(a) IOTL Henri laid seige to Paris in 1590, but the arrival of said Army of Flanders relieved the defenders and forced him to withdraw. ITTL he and his forces do better and those of the League worse, leading to him gaining Paris ahead of schedule and without needing to convert to Catholicism first.
June 2nd, 2012, 01:00 AM
2) To do this we need Britain > Spain + Portugal and Germany > France. The first is not really possible until the end of the English-Dutch Wars, say about 1680 or so. The second is not possible until Germany is united, OTL in 1866. By 1680 the idea of France and Spain being nations in their own right is firmly established; even when the Germans occupied France in WW II they didn't annex it. And as much as the British fought with the Spanish they never entertained the idea of annexing it AFAIK. So this requires an initial POD long before 1500. Not possible in the time frame of the OP.
3) Easy; have the Roman Empire survive and hold onto Gaul and Iberia. The division may not be fair (Italy 100%, Scandinavia 0%) but it is divided between the two.
Yeah, I know it's cheating, but I really don't see any other way to do it. By the time Italy was reunited in 1866-1870 they were already weaker than France and remained so to the present day. And there has not been a time since the Viking era when Scandinavia had a chance of ruling any part of France or Iberia. (Viking descendants, like the Normans, yes, but actual Scandinavian rulers, no.)
4) Any number of possibilities here. Start after Poitiers (1356). Have Burgundy remain independent and have the English retain Normandy, Gascony, Picardy, and Acquitaine as separate entities. Have the Moors hang onto southern Spain and Castile, Aragon, and Galicia remain separate with an independent Portugal. Eleven by my count.
5) Given the geography, implausible. The Pyrenees are the perfect geographical boundary; almost any reasonable sequence of events will result in a political division which follows them. Furthermore there are virtually no comparable north-south barriers on either side of them on which to place a dividing line between east and west; the only one of note is the Rhone. (The boundary between Portugal and Spain is mostly artificial.)
June 2nd, 2012, 01:26 AM
Spain and France are fairly close to east/west on a map anyway. What you need is to find a way to unite France and Aragon, that'll be pretty close.
As for number 2, the only thing I was thinking was some division of Charlemegne's Empire between two sons instead of three, with Charlemegne getting Iberia somehow before he died. Or him having one son and that son taking it and dividing it.
But, then you have the problem of how does Britain get it, plus with Charlemegne "King of the Franks" that might not be possible.
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