Failure before Moscow a Red/BW Joint TL

[BlairWitch749]

LEEB'S DOUBTS (CHAPTER 1)

October 1941 Army Group North HQ

GeneralFeldmarschall Ritter Von Leeb rubbed his bald skull in deep thought. This latest order from the Grofraz really bothered him, not that Leeb had the best relations with Hitler. The fuhrer had already retired him from service twice and only the escalation of the war brought him back into the army.

Leeb's army had already advanced hundreds of kilometers and occupied the Baltic states and had now reached the outskirts of Leningrad. Leeb was proud of his men they had accomplished much despite harsh terrain and fanatical Russian resistance. Leeb had failed to break through the outer ring of the Leningrad defenses in his first rush and up to the time this order arrived had been planning another lunge leading with his veteran 4th panzer army under General Hoeppner.

The order was a serious one and Leeb had a big decision to make.

Army Group North is to go over to the defensive and maintain the encirclement of Leningrad and let the city starve. 4th Panzer army is to be transferred as soon as rolling stock allows to the northern most assembly areas of army group center for participation in the drive to Moscow - OKH

Leeb longed to be the man who captured Leningrad since he had just a minor roll in the victory against France. He weighed his options. He could launch the offensive he was prepping for anyway... success would give him forgiveness and the men were ready. Leeb could also count on the personal support of Field Marshal Keitel who was a longtime friend.

Leeb also considered the men he commanded for a moment. He had visited 1st panzer division recently and they and their machines were tired. He would have to not only disregard his orders to send them forward again but disregard his instincts as an officer in favor of vanity. The 4th panzer army needed a few days of vital rest and repair before they could be effective. In his heart Leeb knew that Moscow was the key objective of the campaign. The German possession of the Moscow communication node would turn Russia's vastness normally an asset into a liability because the northern and southern fronts wouldn't be able to support each other and the Germans could defeat them in detail.

"I thought we could take Leningrad in the following spring Moscow was the more vital objective" Leeb would write in his war diary.

The orders went out 4th panzer army to stand down and repair vehicles for 3 days then move onto the left flank of army group center for operation typhoon. All of Army Group North's air support would be coming along as well. The XXXXI and LVI Panzer Corps serviced their tanks and trucks while the troops got some much needed rest there would be big battles ahead.

It would prove to be one of the biggest decisions of the war. The 4th panzer army had a high percentage of seasoned personel and veteran officers who would lead the critical northern thrust towards Moscow.

The remainder of Leeb's army the 16th and 18th infantry armies dug in and let the Leningrad garrison feel the pangs of hunger siege warfare could generate and prayed for the armor to come back soon

to be continued....

hope you all enjoy our cooperative tl

(Ritter Von Leeb who gave up his tanks so the Germans could reach Moscow)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1999-045-16A%2C_Wilhelm_Ritter_von_Leeb.jpg/422px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1999-045-16A%2C_Wilhelm_Ritter_von_Leeb.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1999-045-16A%2C_Wilhelm_Ritter_von_Leeb.jpg)

[DuQuense]

?Is there a POD hidden in here somewhere?

[BlairWitch749]

yes Leeb made one last desperate lunge for Leningrad after he had received in his orders to go over to the defensive in otl. This failed miserably and the 1st panzer division in particular and the XXXXI panzer corps overall were completely exhausted. that last operation cost them over 100 tanks and vital days were also lost on the road to Moscow. This prevented critical repair work from being done in the 4th panzer army

in otl the 4th panzer army was the strongest of the German Panzer Armies at the time of Typhoon even in spite of this wasteful offensive. The 4th panzer army despite the losses in the last Leningrad offensive got to within 20 miles of Moscow. The extra hundred or so tanks and slightly fresher units may help them cover that last bit of distance

[DuQuense]

?So how will a earlier digging in around Leningrad affect the Siege? ?Can this close the Lake Ladoga gap?

[BlairWitch749]

not without a more active Finnish participation or the return of the panzer armies. the infantry armies alone don't have the strength to crack the Leningrad defensive perimeter. in otl the jump off points for the last try at Leningrad ended up being the point were they held the siege from anyway

[The Red]

PREPARING FOR THE FINAL BATTLE (CHAPTER 2)

This city is a prostitute
She has red spots on her forehead
Her teeth are made of gold
She's fat and yet so lovely
Her mouth falls to my valley
when I pay her for it
She takes off her clothes but only for money
The city that keeps me in suspense

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/Poster_Defend_Moscow.jpg


Leeb had a right to believe that the city could be taken, standing between the Wehrmacht and the possible fate of the world were three Soviet fronts formed from battered armies that had been fighting for several months. The forces committed to the city's defense totaled 1,250,000 men, 1,000 tanks, 7,600 guns. The Soviet Air Force had suffered appalling losses of some 21,200 aircraft However, extraordinary industrial achievements had begun to replace losses, and the VVS had 936 aircraft, 578 of which were bombers for the defense of the capital. Even with reinforcements, air strength was a shadow of pre-war strength. Troops and equipment, while equal to the Wehrmacht based on their numbers alone, were poorly located, with most of the troops deployed in a single line, and had few reserves to the rear. Furthermore, many Soviet defenders were seriously lacking in combat experience and some critical equipment, while their tanks were obsolete models.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Turkey/turkey-T26c.jpg
Even by the Winter the Soviets still had large numbers of the obsolete T-26 defending Moscow

In October 1941, Georgi Zhukov replaced Semyon Timoshenko in command of the central front and was assigned to direct the Defence of Moscow.

Immediately he began constructing extensive defenses around the city. The Rzhev-Vyazma defense setup, was built on the Rzhev-Vyazma-Bryansk line. The Mozhaisk defense line, was a double defense stretching between Kalinin and Kaluga. Finally, a triple defense ring surrounded the city itself, forming the Moscow Defense Zone. These defenses were still largely unprepared by the beginning of Typhoon. Furthermore, the German attack plan had been discovered quite late, and Soviet troops were ordered to assume a total defensive stance only on September 27, 1941. However, new Soviet divisions were being formed on the Volga, in Asia and in the Urals, and it would only be a matter of a few months before these new troops could be committed, making the battle a race against the clock...

[bobbis14]

Intersting ... keep going :)

[RGB]

The extra hundred or so tanks and slightly fresher units may help them cover that last bit of distance

...and then what?

[The Red]

...and then what?

You'll have to wait and see :p

[BlairWitch749]

...and then what?

we had a thread about our first thoughts on this yesterday if you want to use that as a sneak peak

[BlairWitch749]

TYPHOON ON THE FRONT (CHAPTER 3)

October 1941Central Russia


Despite hasty preparations the concentrated might of army group center thundered across the front. The 2nd,3rd,4th Panzer Armies along with the 2nd,4th,9th infantry armies tore into the Soviet armies with Moscow as their goal. Over 500 aircraft of the second air fleet flew sorties to knock out the rail lines and Soviet vehicles.

Various German commanders had misgivings of the last great push towards Moscow. In particular the commander of the 2nd Panzer Army the legendary Heinz Guderian saw several shortcomings.

After the long drive through the Ukraine my troops were tired. Their machines desperately required several days of urgent service. Army Group Center was impatient to launch the offensive in spite of my warnings that we hadn't received replacement tanks and that fuel reserves were inadequate given how far away our objectives were. Nevertheless we stormed forward hoping to get to Moscow before winter


The northern part of army group center experienced rapid success and quickly had a double encirclement of the the central and reserve fronts of the army. The weight of metal the 4th Panzer army was able to put into the battle in particular allowed them to slice through the hastily constructed Soviet positions. The tanks trucks and halftracks wrapped themselves around the trapped Soviet divisions that desperately tried to escape the encirclement. The 9th army tried desperately to overrun the pocket and stampede the Soviets into surrendering. Although many did surrender especially after airstrikes removed a lot of the Soviet transport many Soviet troops sometimes up to the size of a rifle division did escape the trap.

The Bryansk front was encircled by the 2nd panzer army and the 2nd infantry army trying to crush the pocket. Guderian's army didn't have nearly the strength of his northern neighbors. His army was attacked by t-34's of the 4th tank brigade and the relatively fresh 1st guards rifle corps. This created critical battle situations because the ordinary German divisions didn't have any anti tank weapons that could knock out a t-34. Guderian was increasingly relying on airpower as a substitute for artillery and armored striking power. A special commission was sent on Guderian's request to investigate how to create armored vehicles with enough fire power to stop the new Soviet tank.

While the Germans reduced the pockets a brief snow fell then melted creating unbearable mud all along the roads completely killing off German mobility. The pockets did collapse with the Germans claiming over 650,000 prisoners although later research would adjust this down to about 550,000. This was still an impressive victory and it removed 40 percent of the Soviet manpower in the western theater.

By the second week in October the Germans arrived at the last Moscow defense line. The 3rd and 4th Panzer Armies reached Kalinin and the 2nd Panzer army reached Tula. Tula proved an impossible nut to crack for Guderian... it would have taken a full strength infantry corps with lots of artillery and airpower to reduce the city and he had no such forces in reserve so he was forced to swing wide around the city dropping off his tired infantry divisions to extend his lines. The Germans at this point were slowed more by lack of fuel and poor condition of the roads than by Russian resistance.

By the first week in November both great armies were almost completely exhausted with only the 4th Panzer army making any real progress. Stalin launched several hasty counterattacks which were for the most part beaten off. There was one exception; the 4th infantry army was roughly handled because it lacked effective anti tank weapons. The losses in this formation were especially felt because they were the army directly on the center course for Moscow and their troops would be needed to storm the city.

The second week in November saw a solid frost and then frozen ground which solved the mud problems and restored some of the German mobility. The Russians profited from this time and had set up a triple layered defensive line in front of their capital

The Germans planned an encirclement of the capital with the 3rd, and 4th panzer armies to the north of the city and 2nd panzer army to the south. The northern pincer made more progress with the 1st, 6th, and 7th panzer divisions crossing the Moscow-Volga Canal the last defense line before the city itself.

The Soviets had planned a counterattack with their first shock army but seeing the size of the Germans approaching them they withdrew into the suburbs of the city itself. The panzers rushed into the suburbs screaming into their radios. We are in Moscow! We are in Moscow!. The tanks however were at the end of an extremely thin supply line and their tired infantry forces had no success at all widening the shoulders of their break through. Snow came down and slowed progress even further. The 4th Panzer army's tanks had made the difference but they were in a critical situation. Ammunition was so low that they could only fire in self defense or in an emergency. They had also only broken into a small part of the city and were constantly being counterattacked by the 1st shock army looking to cut them off from army group center.

Farther to the south things did not go so well for the Germans. Guderian's army couldn't supply well because Tula had not fallen. Lack of fuel and poor road conditions off the highway retarded their progress. Guderian's last lunge got him close to Karshira but then a counterattack drove him back. His army was completely spent and extremely vulnerable to the Russian winter.

The 4th infantry army tried to advance up the middle directly towards Moscow on the highway but suffered from a lack of tank and air support and were checked short of the city.

So the northern group had made it into the city's outskirts but the center and southern groups were stuck just short.

Hitler was exstatic on hearing that the 4th Panzer army had reached the capitol and called a conference of his senior leadership to decide how to exploit this. "One more push and the whole Soviet system will collapse"

to be continued...

your thoughts

two updates in one day because YOU deserve it

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GerhoepnerP.jpg

Erich Hoepner whose panzers were the only ones to reach Moscow off the march

[The Red]

KNOTTING THE NOOSE (CHAPTER 4)

Quite contrary to Hitlers belief of a final push to destroy the Red Army it was the Germans that were in a position of great weakness. By the 1st of December the 4th Panzer Army was facing severe problems and continous soviet probing attacks from the front line and children and old men behind the line armed with shot guns, molotovs, knives and sometimes even bricks were causing them to be running seriously low on ammunition. However it was not Soviet attacks that the Germans were worried about, it was the fact that they had stopped.

Since Autumn, thanks mainly to intelligence by their Tokyo master spy Richard Sorge, the Soviets had been pulling as much as they could from Asia and as much as they possibly could from the Northern and Southern fronts and by December Zhukov had accumulated a 54 division reserve. Every T-34, KV-1 and modern fighter/bomber that could be taken was leaving the Northern and Southern fronts at an all time level of vulnerability however by December the Soviets could claim numerical superiority over the Germans with even 2:1 in more vital areas.


The Soviet plan, focusing on the junction between Army groups North and Centre between Lake Seliger and Rzhev, would drive a gap between the two German army groups and cut off all forces who had crossed the Moscow-Volga Canal. A second Kaluga to the south-west of Moscow, it was then intended that the two offensives converge on Smolensk, trapping the large part of Army Group Centre. The plan for the offensive was bold and the build up was largely dismissed by the OKH as maskirovka to try and force a German retreat from the city as bad German intelligence had told them that Soviet reserves were exhausted and that what was left of them were inside the city.

The German Army never realised how big a mistake they were making...

[RGB]

Well, just getting into Moscow doesn't mean you've taken it, and they did spend all that extra effort...

[lonewulf44]

[b][i]

The German Army would never recover from this mistake...

Bummer, does this mean the city's salvation is certain?

[The Red]

Bummer, does this mean the city's salvation is certain?

No not in the slightest but there will be a Soviet offensive.

[Hades]

Waht role would the Japanese play? Would they be emboldened to carry out Otsu?

[The Red]

Waht role would the Japanese play? Would they be emboldened to carry out Otsu?

Attacking Siberia still isnt a very good idea for Japan it wont give them the oil and rubber they need and they would be attcked in late autumn when the harshest weather is about to begin.

So they'll still attack Pearl Harbour.

[BlairWitch749]

Japan has behaved as otl and thus the Russians could still move the Siberian divisions to the West. The main pod we have done is the sparing of the 4th Panzer Army from the last Leningrad offensive. This allowed the Germans to reach the city on the Northwestern front. The 1st shock army also didn't attack the German spearhead in the open but instead withdrew into the city creating a bloodbath

The butterflies should be pretty interesting

[BlairWitch749]

PUT ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET (CHAPTER 5)

December 1941 Central Russia

A quick conference was held at Army Group Center HQ at Smolensk. The 4th Panzer Army was into the northwestern districts of Moscow. The other formations were stopped just short and in terrible conditions due to the weather and lack of rest.

The spearhead was absoultely dead despite the propaganda reels showing the 1st Panzer division with the Kremlin in the background of their front. Intense street fighting was beyond the German tankers at this point. Every building was a potential death trap as trained soliders and heroic citizens of Moscow poured automatic weapons, anti tank rifles, grenades and even satchel charges from every window.

The 1st, 6th and 7th Panzer divisions who had lead the vital charge to the city were a shadow of even their pre typhoon strength. They lacked the necessary infantry to storm the great concrete buildings of the capitol and a lot of their artillery was stuck on the wrong side of the Moscow-Volga canal. The heavy nature of the building in Moscow created problems. Tank fire would not break them up and air strikes were extremely limited due to the terrible weather conditions and swarms of Soviet fighters trying to defend the skies.

Supply over the canal proved almost impossible with only the absoulte bearest essentials reaching the 4th Panzer Army.

Hitler's conference tried to remedy this:
Present were: Hitler, Halder, Von Bock, Guderian, Von Kluge, Hoth, Stauss, Weichs and Hoepner

Hitler: We must give reinforcements to the 4th Panzer Army we are at our moment of triumph. One more push and the whole Bolshevik system will fall apart and the East shall be ours
Halder: We have no theater reserves left to committ my fuhrer. The harshness of the campaign has taxed our replacement system to the bone and none of our new formations are yet ready for deployment
Hitler: I wish to hear no excuses. We shall transfer divisions from the other formations nearby to finish our victory. Guderian; you will transfer 3rd, 4th Panzer and 10th Motorized to the 4th Panzer Army so they can help capture the city.
Guderian: I must protest my fuhrer. My front is stretched extremely thin and the 2nd Panzer Army has no available reserves to make up for the transfer of an entire panzer corps. We are allready being stung by Russian countering attacks and have no winter quarters. I am losing more men from frostbite than from Russian attacks. The infantry of my army desperately require the panzers to backstop them from attacks.
Hitler: You are too far from the city still to give a major contribution to the critical battle my mind is made up. I will have 2nd army transfer 2 of their infantry divisions to help flesh out your front.
Guderian: This is a great folly my fuhrer I cannot stand by whilst my men are made to suffer in this regard we cannot take the city in these horrible winter conditions. I therefore resign my commission

Guderian then stormed out of the room and nobody made any attempt to stop him. His departure would create a critical command vaccume on the 2nd Panzer Army's front

Hitler: Now that issue is settled. I want the 3rd Panzer Army and 4th army to push together along the central axis and break into the core of the city proper. This must be launched as soon as possible. Ruthlessly strip other parts of your front so you can achieve the necessary concentrations along the highway gentlemen. The 9th army is to send 3 divisions across the canal to supplement the tankers and I want the city in our hands for Christmas. This conference is over!

Hitler had made several critical mistakes in these choices. He was reinforcing a dead front. He had allowed his most talented armored commander to resign. He had also put all his eggs in one basket sending more troops across the narrow penetration over the canal. Supply was hard for the 3 divisions already there and 6 more made things unbearable. The cold did terrible things to the exposed troops of the 4th Panzer army. Tanks had to have fires lit under them before starting. The cold warped every battery around. Butter froze so completely that it had to be cut with a saw. Machine gun bolts froze closed so only single shots could be fired. Anti tank rounds had to be scrapped with a knife because the packing grease would freeze to the ammuntion.

The 9 divisions made no progress further into the city over the next 10 days. Cold, lack of fuel, and lack of ammuntion never allowed a true offensive to develop again. This was the last lunge of a dying animal. The Russians profited by this and saw an immense opportunity as the Germans froze to death in the ruined suburbs.

to be continued.....

your thoughts?

http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/Graphics/guderianc.jpg
Heinz Guderian who saw the folly of attacking Moscow in the middle of Winter.

[The Red]

HAR MEGGIDO (CHAPTER 6 PART 1)

"What is happening?" he asked one day of his great-grandson.
"It is el Harb - the war"
"Who makes this war?"
"El nussara - the infidel"
"Against whom? And why?"
"It is infidel against infidel. Who knows why?"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Soviet_pressing_1944.JPG

"To the beginning of December the parity of forces at the front essentially has changed. The Germans troops are exhausted and weakened. At the same time the Red Army has received a significant reinforcement from formations thrown from the Siberia and from the Far East. They are well equipped and trained divisions, distinguished of high fighting capacity. We have reserved them for the counter-offensive, even per the heaviest days, when on approaches to Moscow the badly armed regiments and cadets of the Moscow military schools perished."

From the War Diaries of Marshal Georgy Zhukov

On December 5, 1941, the counteroffensive started. Hundreds of thousands of shells and rockets erupted from the Kalinin front and smashed into German lines. The Soviets began to break through all over the line as the severe lack of ammunition and bitter cold began severely disrupt German defenses. A daylater Hitler signed his directive number 39, which ordered the Wehrmacht to assume a defensive stance on the whole front. However, German troops were unable to organize a solid defense at their present locations and were forced to pull back to consolidate their lines. In the north, Klin and Kalinin were liberated on December 15 and December 16, as the Kalinin Front drove west. The Soviet front commander, General Konev, managed to reach Rzhev and finally managed to crush the German defense of the city by the 20 th of December.In the south, the offensive went equally well, with Southwestern Front forces relieving Tula on December 16, 1941. The Luftwaffe was reinforced, as Hitler saw it as the only hope to "save" the situation. However despite the Luftwaffe's best efforts, Soviet air superiority managed to stop them from the hampering the Red Army's pursuit of the German Army. In the center, Soviet troops liberated Naro-Fominsk only on December 8, Kaluga on December 18, and Maloyaroslavets on December 22, after days of violent action.

By mid-December, OKH was becoming an increasingly frantic place as they tried to find some way to save Army Group Centre from encirclement as it's flanks were hammered by the two Soviet prongs...

[The Red]

HAR MEGGIDO (CHAPTER 6 PART 2)

As German High Command panicked Stavka were ecstatic as thoughts of 1812 and L'Grand Armee hung in the air.

After violent battles in the air were sometimes the Soviets could only rely on howitzers for Anti-aircraft defense the Luftwaffe had been practically grounded by the weather and now the terrified and battered remnants of Army Group Centre were fighting in the most horrible conditions possible, food was becoming scarce as was ammunition and many soldiers went to sleep only to die of hypothermia. The Red Army on the other hand were well equipped and well fed for the most part however they were not untouched by the weather either and although there advance had been impressive it was now in serious danger of stalling due to supply lines.

Both sides by the end of December had one thing in mind - Smolensk. That was were Army Group Centres fate would be decided. It's raillinks were crucial for German coordination and transportation. If the German could hold the city until the Spring thaw then the remanins of Army Group Centre could escape to form a new defense line along the Dneiper were the German could hold their takings of the summer campaign and regain the initiative. However if the Soviets could take the city then the entirety of Army Group Centre could face annihilation and a giant ole would be blown in the German line giving the seemingly unstoppable Soviets the chance to reach Belarus and possibly cut off Army Group North. The stakes were as high as they could have been and the events of the battle would shape the world forever.

"Go on now Comrades and destroy the oppressors who have violated the Rodina. Your sacrifice will never be forgotten, a thousand years from now the people of the world will still shout your names and proclaim "It was they, they who liberated Smolensk, they who destroyed the Fascism!""
An excerpt from Joseph Stalin's speech on Christmas Day

It is pivotal not only for operations in the Centre but also the entire Front that Smolensk be held. From the examples of Moscow and Leningrad troops will defend every street and building till their last round of ammunition then charge the enemy with fixed bayonet. Anything other than fanatical resistance of every crater, road and house will be met by court martial and summary execution. Should encirclement take place troops will fight till the last man and not surrender till the last bullet has been fired and the last German chokes in his own blood.
Directive for combat in the Smolensk area by Adolf Hitler, December 27.

Offensive operations never really began as the Moscow counter offensive was still ongoing however most historians put the date of the beginnign of the battle at somewhere between the 28th and 29th of December. Konev managed to liberate the town of Glinka and reach the eastern outskirts of the city whilst Zhukov launched a double attack towards the western outskirts and Kransny south of the city. The German defense was hurried and lacked proper foritfications but with Von Kluge in overall command they managed to fight a savage defense both against the encirclement and inside the city. Heavy fighting took place fom street to street as the German refusal to retreat began to rack up Soviet casualties. German untis fought were they stood usually fighting to the last round of ammunition. A short lull in the weather further complicated the Soviet situation by allowing the Luftwaffe to offer some help to the beleagured defenders as well as the poor roads making he Soviet supply situation even more fragile.

The fighting was bitter with heavy casualites on both sides with only the sheer desperation of the two armies continuing the fight day and night. Civillians who had not fled spent days underground without heating, food or sanitation praying for the madness to cease. By hogmanay in the worst conditions possible for both sides Soviet troops met at Pochinok closing the ring around the Germans. Hitler ordered an immediate ounter attack to break the encirclement and continue to aid Von Kluge but troops inside Smolensk could barely defend themselves and it was hardly better on the outside. On the 3rd of January Soviet troops were in the cirty center which had now become a desert of ruins and a mix of ice, snow and human remains. Many German soldiers had not eaten for days and a large part of the surviving defenders had only their bayonets and knives for weaponry. Suicide charges wth fixed bayonets were rumoured to have happened but they have never been confirmed. On January 4 Von Kluge took his own life with cyanide joking before he commmited the act that he wasn't going to waste ammunition. It is agreed by most historians that the battle ended the next day however brutal hand to hand combat continued for a week.

"God is not with us"

Heinz Guderian after the Soviet victory at Smolensk

"The sun sank into grey clouds, the sky flushed and darkened, something rushed up into the sky out of the greyness--rushed slantingly upward and very swiftly into the luminous clearness above the clouds in the western sky; something that swept round in a vast curve, grew smaller, sank slowly, and vanished again into the grey mystery of the night. And as it flew it rained down darkness upon the land."



This was the end for Army Group Centre. Without their transportation hub entire divisions began to collapse...

-------------------
Sory it's taken me so long to put this up. Fell free to shout at/hit me.

[The Red]

No comments? </3

[Sol Zagato]

No comments? </3
Smolensk, at least, was well supplied. IIRC, the Germans had (relatively) little trouble getting stuff that far. I could see AGC being cut off from most of its rail links, just further east of Smolensk. I'd think if the Soviets went for Smolensk it would be a bloody failure, worse than the Rzhev battles in winter 41-42.

[The Red]

Smolensk, at least, was well supplied. IIRC, the Germans had (relatively) little trouble getting stuff that far. I could see AGC being cut off from most of its rail links, just further east of Smolensk. I'd think if the Soviets went for Smolensk it would be a bloody failure, worse than the Rzhev battles in winter 41-42.

You've got to remember that here the Germans are a lot worse supplied and are collasping before the Soviet juggernaut.

[Jukra]

No comments? </3

It's well written, so it's hard to point out nitpicks, for example! It's a very interesting read but I lack the expertise to comment about it.

[The Red]

It's well written, so it's hard to point out nitpicks, for example! It's a very interesting read but I lack the expertise to comment about it.

Cheers :)

I'll be sure to put in more mistakes in the future.

[Sol Zagato]

You've got to remember that here the Germans are a lot worse supplied and are collasping before the Soviet juggernaut.

Alright, I read it more deeply.

Just by being a big supply hub, resources and men can be quickly transferred to Smolensk. If it's critical, the Germans will be able to get forces there. Nearly the same scenario (with almost the same consequences) can more likely happen with Vyazama instead, farther out of German reach, and closer to Soviet supply.

Also, with a stronger (thus faster) 4th Pz. Army, wouldn't the casualties/captures in the October Vyazama pocket be somewhat higher? This would give the Germans a more favorable force ratio on the front, leading later to some combination of three things throughout the Moscow front: faster Soviet withdrawal, higher Soviet casualties and lower German attrition. (and of course that leads to more extreme overextension, but hey....) This means Guderian would find things easier going, though of course it doesn't mean he'll neccesarily take Tula. Greater panic in Moscow? The course of the war was affecting the Soviet economy.
http://ideas.repec.org/p/wrk/warwec/603.html


Finally, would the 4th Pz head straight for Moscow? I thought the objective was encirclement of the city. This doesn't make their position any more favorable, but for the sake of accuracy?

[The Red]

Well German overextension is the main cause for the Soviet ounteroffensive being more successful.

[Sol Zagato]

Well German overextension is the main cause for the Soviet ounteroffensive being more successful.

Yes, I can see a successful Soviet counteroffensive. They could even cut off big parts of AGC due to Hitler's stupidity. But Smolensk is a bridge too far. It's not like they come out of nowhere- OKW will see the Soviet salient reaching farther toward their main supply hub and they'll have time to react. Even Grofaz won't be that stupid (well, probably...).

The Soviets could encircle AGC if they aimed for Vyazama. At that point, AGC would be forced to retreat or be destroyed. A Soviet offensive going for Smolensk would be, in order, blunted, cut off, encircled and destroyed. The Soviets attacking Smolensk wouldn't be as much of an obvious error as the Germans not properly defending Smolensk, so is a bit more likely to happen. (but still unlikely).

OTL, the Soviets REALLY didn't like German forces sitting close to Moscow. Somebody would have to have a bright idea (and convince Stalin of it!) to allow the Germans to rot in the Moscow suburbs.

[BlairWitch749]

Collapse from the bottom (Chapter 7)

January 1942

With the destruction of Smolensk and thus Army Group Center's supply lines, epic defeat stared the Heer in the face. While some 4th army divisions had retreating along the lines of communication the 2nd,3rd, and 4th Panzer Armies were still strung out on the wings hoplessly encircled by Zhukov's siberians.

Feldwebel Schmidt of the 112th infantry division in the still leaderless 2nd Panzer Army gave a far too common account.

My division had no permanent quarters. Every time we captured a building to hide from the cold the Russians would bring up a big 152mm gun and blast the building apart or set it on fire. I was still in my summer uniform and had the embarrassing detail of collecting Red Army surrender leaflets to line the men's clothes.

The Siberians came at us like the wolf on the fold. Their men were well equipped with heavy padded jackets, skis, felt gloves and warm caps. We were stunned to see them riding along on the backs of the type T-34 tanks at 30 kilometers per hour through the thickest snow, they were lavishly supplied with tommy guns and grenades, my platoon had no chance.

Not that there was much of my platoon left. We had fought together since Poland our merry bunch of 40 men. On January 3rd I had 5 frostbite casualties in -20 C temperatures. My men couldn't even perform their natural needs. I had 6 men go outside to "use the facilities" and they died of congelation of the anus.

We had no supplies left to fend of the Russians the vicious fighting at Smolensk had robbed us of all but the barest of essentials. Soap, razors, shoe repair kits and mail from home had utterly disappeared. When the Siberians came to destroy my division my men had but 20 rounds a piece for their rifles and only two belts each for the machine guns. Even this modest quantity was useless as the extreem cold had expanded the breech blocks of the rifles thus jamming them. Our normally reliable MG-34's could only fire single shots due to the brittle cold.

Rumors spread wild that Smolensk had fallen and the entire Army Group was cut off. I tried to rally the men's spirits but once they heard the venerable men of the 4th Panzer Army had been completely overrun at Moscow there was nothing more I could do. The Siberians hit us at our weakest moment and my men surrendered. I wished to take my life with my pistol but found the magazine frozen closed preventing me from even chambering a round for my self. I would spend the next 10 years in a Soviet work camp an experience I could only describe as worse than hell.

It was much the same all across the line. The bitter cold and lack of permanent positions left the veteren German units ripe pickings for the Siberians. The 4th Panzer Army was the first to go under. They were completely overextended fighting in the capitol city limits. The carefully massed first shock army smashed their weak left flank and easily stormed across the Moscow Volga Canal. Weak, hungry, and without warm clothes the men quickely surrendered. Hoepner was taken prisoner when his HQ was overrun by a detachment of KV-1's. This unhinged the entire German left wing.

The 2nd Panzer Army was helpless after giving up the 24th Panzer Corps and was simliarly sliced apart from the rest of the army. By the end of January Army Group Center had a steak through its heart. Gone were the 2nd Panzer Army, 4th Army, 3rd Panzer Army, 4th Panzer Army, 2 corps of the 9th Army, and 1 corps of the 2nd Army. Over 50 experienced German divisions had been removed from the order of battle. Hoepner, Hoth, and Kluge were gone. Bock made a report that his HQ was about to be overrun and then shot himself. Shattered surivivors and returning wounded men desperately tried to stem Zhukov's tide. Zhukov at this point weighed his strategic options as the mass of prisoners were sent to the rear.

Was it better to keep driving in the center were the front was destroyed. His supply lines were allready terribly tight and such an operation might risk and similar overextension to what the Germans had done lunging for Moscow. Should he drive north into Latvia and put a similar death grip on Army Group North?

These were questions for the boss. Zhukov was flying back to Moscow extremely proud of his brave Siberians. It was the begining of the end of the Third Reich

to be continued....


your thoughts?

http://katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2/Images/images02-russia4145/Russia1944-POW.jpg

German pow's marched through the streets of Moscow after their surrender April 1942

[John Farson]

Very good, but like Jukra I lack the expertise to comment on any possible mistakes.

So the war's going to be a little shorter in this TL?

[BlairWitch749]

well 75 percent of army group center has been destroyed i would think Germany's warmaking capabilities will be reduced... red and i should have some interesting butterflies out of whats happened so far

[LeoXiao]

I like this. Continue plz.

[BlairWitch749]

will do... red and i have gameplanned out a fairly long tl but not all the outlines are done so we will post as the inspiration hits.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=2759062

this thread was our original inspiration

[The Red]

THE AFTERMATH PART 1 ( CHAPTER 8 )

By Mid-January the sheer size of the Soviet triumph was sending shocwaves around the world. In Britain, Churchill was reported as saying "Our gallant Soviet allies have ripped the guts out of the Nazi menace. It is the beginning of the end!" Immediately the military oppurtunit of this victory became apparent and by Febuary the British Army Staff were spending sleepless nights collaborating with the US military high command on how to best land on the European mainland as quickly as possible. The German public was as always kept in the dark but it was impossible to hide that a devastating defeat had taken place. You could not walk down a street without seeing the mourning faces of mothers, girlfriends and wives all wearing black. For the Soviet populace there was a completely opposite effect. People had gone through the second half of 1941 with only dread and immenent doom staring them in the face but now they knew they would win.

However Stavka did not share their optimism, a potentially deadly blow had been dealt to the Germans but now they had to exploit the current initiative and finish the job. However where the strike was a subject of much debate. Those like Timoshenko and Rokossovky argued for a strike towards the Baltics to cut off Army Group North like they had Centre, if this could be accomplished even an idiot like Hitler would beg for terms with millions of his own troops lost. On the other hand geenrals like Zhukov and onev argued that the destruction of Army Group Centre was primarily due to it's overextension and already the two prongs of the offensive were dangerously overextended. If they could not reach the Baltic by the Spring thaw they would meet a similar fate to the Germans. They argued that they were best to regroup and continue the strike in the centre where the Germans were panicking and Soviets had an overwhelming numerical superiority. Stalin finally went with the plan to strike at the centre towards Minsk judging the Northern Plan brave and well thought out but nevertheless too risky.

As preparations were made for the follow up in the centre the Soviets continously leaked false information about their plan to attack towards the Baltics with division strengths and assigned commanders all being falsely created in the worlds biggest bluff. Wrecked tans were piled up and shaped to make them look like a real armoured build up and all the while the real forces were beginning to prepare to drive the Germans back into Poland...

[Jukra]

On January 3rd I had 5 frostbite casualties in -20 C temperatures. My men couldn't even perform their natural needs. I had 6 men go outside to "use the facilities" and they died of congelation of the anus.

As a macabre nitpick to this interesting TL, yes one can perform his or her natural needs in -20 C temperatures outside without much problems...

[BlairWitch749]

As a macabre nitpick to this interesting TL, yes one can perform his or her natural needs in -20 C temperatures outside without much problems...

historically the germans suffered quite a few casualties from this literally freezing your ass off

[BlairWitch749]

The Aftermath part II (Chapter 9 Rommel saves the army)

Late January 1941

Hitler saw the army was in trouble and something drastic needed to be done. The collapse of army group center and the capture of Smolensk by Zhukov's Siberians had turned the entire front into a super saliant with the remnants of a few divisions in the center, and Army Groups North and South stuck in front of Leningrad and the Mius river.

Walther von Brauchitsch the Chief of the OKH was sacked for the collapse of Army Group Center and along with Guderian's departure and Bock's death it created a huge command vaccume.

Hitler called on GeneralOberst Erich Von Manstein. He had commanded 56th Panzer Corps with much success and led the drive to Moscow. Several months earlier he had been transferred to command the 11th Army in the Crimea and had taught the Russians several brutal lessons in clearing out the entire area save Sevastopol.

Hitler's plan was to rebuild army group center and reform the front. Garrison divisions from Norway, the Balkans, the Low Countires, Denmark, France and the entire Africa corps would be brought online to restablish a central front. It would take a month or two to put them together but it would create a 20 division army to block Zhukov's advances

Manstein made a quick flying tour of the front despite horrendous winter weather and poor security situations and quickley saw that 20 divisions with only a modest armored component would not restore the front.

The conference at Rastenburg was extremely hostile and chilly.

Manstein: My fuhrer the enemy enjoys complete freedom of action all along the central front. The assembling reserves are in no way equal to the task of holding all existing positions. The only thing actually holding back the Siberians is disorganization in their supply chains not any losses we have given them
Hitler: Good German blood has been spilled to get this far and the Communist system is still vulnerable we must committ everything to hold them back
Manstein: We have intercepted disturbing messages from Marshal Zhukov's headquarters that he is going to launch a renewed offensive with the objective of Riga. His intention is to cut off the rump of Army Group North. They lack the effective infantry and armored reserves to stop such a move. Army Group South is similiarly vulnerable to being cut off since their left flank is in the air.
Hitler: It is all lies! All a bluff! They have exausted their reserves we must hold on to the last man! To the last round!
Manstein: The army must pull back my Fuhrer only then can we regain our balance and stop the Russians. Once we pull our forces back to the 1941 border the infantry formations of Army Group North and South along with our assembling divisions can spread out along the reduced front so that we can present Zhukov with a more of a challenge. We can then build up an armored reserve based on the 1st Panzer army and the Africa Corps and hope to take out some of the shock from Zhukov's spearheads
Hitler: No this cannot be done! All of my generals are cowards and traitors. You are a coward and traitor Manstein! I'LL HAVE YOU SHOT!

(Aids grabbed Manstein and roughly took him out of the conference. He was right, he was always right but he would die in a cellar in 1942 after being given a pistol with one bullet in it)

Despite Hitler's insane order to execute his finest line officer there were others willing to serve and to save the army.

Guderian was recalled and made minster of the economy with the direction to use any ruthless steps necessary to increase war production. He was directed to help create new and deadly armored vehicles. It would take some time before his energy would bear fruit but he did everything possible to fit out the garrison divisions with enough anti tank weapons so they could hold back the flood of the Red Army.

Rommel was flown home and his Africa Corps was given absolute priority for evacuation to defend the fatherland the Italians would just have to make due till the front stabilized. Very careful fighter cover was given both from JG 26 and JG 77 to make sure the Africa Corps came home safely.

If Hitler thought Rommel was some sort of carpet knight or pushover who would agree to hold the front he was sorely mistaken.

Rommel: We must pull back to the 1941 border. I have read Zhukov's mail via radio intercept the situation is far too dangerous to hold the front in this way
Hitler: I cannot consent to this
Rommel: Ground can be recovered men cannot. The desert has shown us this time and again. I cannot stop the Russians unless the front stabilizes and I can mass an armored reserve
Hitler: The Army Groups will just have to hold on while you reorganize the center
Rommel: NO! The enemy enjoys complete freedom along hundreds of miles of the front. They can appear anywhere and their reorganization is too close to completion. You brought me here to save the situation and this is the only way it can be done. If we cannot pull the armies back I shall resign!
Hitler: (Shaking his fists and pacing back and forth getting more and more angry) I brought you back because you know how to fight! You are talking to me like a coward, like someone who doesn't see how broken and corrupt the communists are like somone.... (Hitler wobbled fell over banging his head on the floor foam coming from his mouth)

(Terrified aids rushed to his side and his personal doctor began immediately attending to him. It was quickley diagnosed as a stroke and deep concussion... Hitler would lose consciousness for 12 days)

Keitel, Jodl and Halder looked like terrified little school boys. Luckily there was one man in the room who spent a lifetime making split decisions, risking it all, and making his will work for Germany. Erwin Rommel took command of the central part of the eastern front but first he ordered Army Group North and South to fall back along their lines of communication untill they hit the 1941 border. All possible equipment was to be taken with them and the rail lines and water supplies were to be destroyed as they retreated. By the middle of February they were nearly all out of Russian territory

Zhukov got everything he hoped for with his deception. His dummy tanks that were going to cut off Army Group North tricked the facists. His regroupment complete he sent 6 armies including his veteran Siberian divisions chasing after the reforming Army Group Center. Three of his tank brigades and two Siberian rifle divisions surrounded Brest Litovsk and the German 78th and 119th infantry divisions were trapped inside. Rommel heard their frantic pleas for help and steeled his nerve for action.

His Africa Corps was disorganized from their long journey to the front but the mission was critical. His orders were a mere four paragraphs and the message was clear.

BREAK THROUGH THE ENCIRCLING RUSSIANS AND FREE OUR MEN!

Rommel accompanied the 90th Light with his command truck thrust his fist forward three times and shouted into the radio PANZERS MARCH!

Disorganization and hoarding has zapped the strength of the German army for far too long. Rommel's corps was fully supplied on their way to front and gave it to the Soviets with both barrels. Artillery previously silent covered the tanks with a stunning and continous creeping barrage. The Luftwaffe operating from established airfields in Poland, Germany and Rumania savaged Zhukov's spearheads. These fields being close to home had hard metal runways and were much better equipped for winter weather.

Captain Alexeyev of the 5th Gaurds tank division was one of the first to experience combat with the Africa Corps on the new front:

For weeks whenever the Germans had seen our tanks they just fired a few shots and kept running but no more. The surrounding of Litovsk and a German corps seemed to have waken them from their fear. My battalion continued to advance hopping to gain us much ground as possible before the spring rains. On a topping hill the Africa Corps came for us 3 divisions on parade ground order. Over four hundred German machine guns began to rattle and my battalion was blanketed with intense fire. 88mm FLAK guns opened fire tearing my tanks to bits. I ordered our escorting infantry company to advance under covering fire of my tanks and knock out the FLAK. Our mortars also opened up but this attracted repeated Stuka strikes reducing their effectiveness.

Their tanks opened up and advanced down the hill with a high rate of fire. Within 10 minutes my command was shattered. These Germans were fanatical and crushed my men beneath their tracks as they screamed. Their grenadiers followed behind the tanks hopping down from their halftracks screaming NO MERCY! NO MERCY! Every Russian they saw died a terrible death. They bayoneted or choked the life out of everyone. I nearly was gutted myself had not an officer ordered me spared for interrogation.

News of this attack debilitated Russian morale. The Africa Corps making as much as 40 kilometers per hour broke through to the surrounded infantry corps in appalling weather and brought them back home. They had savaged an entire Russian army and restored the presitage of their nation. The battle group retired behind the defenses of the 1941 border just as the spring rains closed down all further operations.

Rommel had saved the army and the Germans made the most of their recuperative powers to build up this new line.

Hitler recovered his health and was stuck with a fait complit. The propaganda value of Rommel was impossible to ignore. He was confirmed in his post as commander of Army Group Center. He was promoted GeneralFeldMarshal for bravery in the face of the enemy and given the swords to his Knight's Cross

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/africa/rommel.jpg
Field Marshal Rommel who saved the German Army

[The Red]

The Aftermath Part 3 (Chapter 9)

The first real effects of the Soviet victory to be felt on another front was in the desert. All through January the Afrika Korps had evacuated from North Africa through Tripoli much to Italian protests. By the end of January the Germans had left in good order leaving the Italians alone against the British for the first time in a year.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Marshal_Cavallero_and_Rommel.jpg
Chief of Italian Supreme Command, Ugo Cavallero says farewell to Rommel during the German evacuation

Throughout Febuary and March, the Italians attempted to form a defensive line around El Agheila however by March 15 the newly formed Eighth Army under Auchinleck launched Operation Scipio which in good order repeated the British successes of the year before. By early April Tripoli had been cut off from the rest of Libya and by the the end of the month the Italian Commander in Chief Count Ugo Cavalerro fled to Italy whilst Marshal Ettore Bastico met Auchinleck in Tripoli and surrendered all remaining Itlain forces in Italy. The end in North Africa raised British morale even greater than the destruction of Army Group Centre, this was a victory of their own making and they had taken over 100,000 Italian prisoners.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/05/27/article-1188890-051A4FCE000005DC-58_634x669.jpg
Winston Churchill celebrates with British troops after the capture of Tripoli

The Allied invasion of French North Africa, Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, started on May 1, 1942. The day after a putsch was initiated by the French resistance, leading to most Vichy figures being arrested. Although many in the French Army wanted to resist they were constantly hamsturng by defections and surrenders allowing the Allies to constantly break through defensive lines. After ten days the British reached the Moroccan coast and the Axis had been pushed out of Africa entirely, with many of the Vichy Frenh troops joining the allied cause.

With the Axis finished in Africa the Allies now turned their attention to Europe. Whilst the West had once feared a Soviet collapse now a German collapse seemed much more likely and much more worrying. Would Stalin stop at Germany? Almost certainly not.

It was this belief that prompted the Anglo-Americans, in early January, to draw up 2 preliminary plans for landing in Europe in 1942. The first planned for a landing in Norway which pointed out the weakness of the Germans there after they had stripped there garrison to the minimum. It was argued that the Allies could quickly liberate the nation and then launch a follow up landing into Denmark, a country where the Germans had left entirely o the control of local collaborators, and Northern Germany. This plan was rejected mainly on the grounds that it was too limited in it's objectives and the fact that a follow up invasion of Denmark would take months to prepare by which time it might have been too late the stip the Soviets from reaching the Rhine and beyond.

The second plan, codenamed Sledgehammer, called for a direct Cross-Channel invasion. This idea had been considered absurd in late 1941 however since the collapse of Arm Group Centre the Germans had also stripped their garrison in France to 10 understrength divisions mostly made up of old or unfit men. This gave a landing in France a good chance of succeeding. The plan called for 3 stages; First, the French resistance would begin a revolution in occupied and Vichy France with the hope of tying down the Germans. Second, the allies would land near Cherbourg and secure the port. Third, the larger invasion force of 16 divisions would come across from Britain and push the Germans west.

However large amounts of American troops were not available yet and the 16 divisions available would not be adequate for liberating France and a push into Germany.

To secure more troops the Allies approached Spain. Although Franco had declared himself non-belliegerent and had supported the Axis it was now clear to him that thye would not win the war but he was also reluctant to join the Allies. During secret meetings in Febuary, Franco originally gave deliberately excessive demands to try and scare the Allies away from the idea however the promise of large scale American help to ensure a speedy economic recovery from the Civil War and the threat that the Allies would be forced to consider Spain as an Axis member if he were to refuse brought Franco to agree on joining the Allies.

Through American equiping and the recalling of the Blue Division from the Eastern Front, the allies expected to have 12 Spanish divisons available to invade the South of France along with the ladnings in the North.

http://www.eaec.org/images/newsletter/Blue%20Division.jpg
Soldiers of the Blue Division return to Spain to a heroes welcome, still in their German uniforms.

In Britian the preparations for Sledgehammer began...

[The Red]

Any comments folks?

[BlairWitch749]

starting to look like hearts of iron doomsday :-D i like it

[BlairWitch749]

Before the storm (Chapter 10)

Stavka Supreme HQ Spring 1942


Stalin: You may began comrade Marshal Zhukov
Zhukov: Thank you comrade Stalin. As you all know our great winter counteroffensive has driven the fascists completely out of the Rodina. Our reserves are at present, spent and our supply lines are overstretched and delayed by the muddy nature of the roads. Our western allies inform us that they have some intention of opening a major second front this coming summer
Stalin: I have made a momentous decision. After we destroy the fascists and capture Germany we will turn our attention to our true enemies. THE WESTERN CAPITALISTS PIGS. I want us to drive them right off the continent after Hitler's crew has been finished.
Zhukov: I have several recommendations that would help us to defeat the west comrade Stalin
Stalin: Proceed
Zhukov: 1 we should prepare a diversionsary offensive to coincide with the western landing in France. I would prefer it be in the area of Litovsk. The Germans seem to have their strongest reserves in that area. After German strategic reserves are committed to attack the French landings and our Litovsk feint we will then launch the balance of our forces primarily built around the 2nd and 5th guards tank armies and the 1,3,9th Guards rifle armies. I intend to launch them about 100 km south of the Baltic with the objective of slicing off army group north. Our strategic objective will be Danzig then seeing how events develop BERLIN!
Stalin: A most ambitious plan comrade Marshal. What other recommendations do you have to assist our great endevour?
Zhukov: I would like to pull 2 corps of the Siberians out of the line so they may play instructor to our newly organizing forces. They have been the most successful of our troops in killing the invaders their lessons need to be passed on. Also we need to reintegrate the thousands of liberated soldiers the Germans left in our wake. I also suggest releasing some of the soldiers who are currently in the Gulag on a conditional parole "Kill the invader and prove your loyalty to the motherland" This would greatly increase our effective numbers which is sorely needed to combat the power of the capitalists
Stalin: These are serious moves Marshal. But our task is a serious one. I shall approve all your recommendations. You will direct the new offensive personally. Do not fail me! It is going to be a cold winter in Siberia!

Guderian as the new minister of the war economy was playing a three dimensional chess game and every hand was losing. The newly reconstituted Army Group Center and Army Group North had almost no armored components at all. New production was slow as he forced the armaments industry with threats of being sent to concentration camps to produce upgraded armored vehicles to defend the fatherland. At least the Panzer MK 4 now had the PAK 40 anti tank gun and could defeat the T-34 at most the normal battle ranges. Guderian was desperate to pull every possible Panzer MK 4 off the line so that it could be sent back to the factory to be retooled with the new gun but the severely thin nature of the German lines just couldn't let the armor have any rest.

His herculean efforts did manage to create a panzer reserve for the entire front of 450 Panzer MK 4's and 250 assault guns with the long 75mm gun. It wasn't much but at least it gave the Germans some tactical flexability to take the shock out of Zhukov's spearheads. Unfortunately for Guderian his work and the desperate nature of the Eastern front left all other theaters desperate for armor and men. The Africa Corps and 1st Panzer Army continued to guard the southern portion of the front with their older tanks. The MK 4's were slowly withdrawn for retooling. They could at least count on having seasoned personel and talented commanders. The reserve for army group north and center was under the direct command of Erwin Rommel who was also the defacto leader of Army Group Center.
http://www.jodyharmon.com/militaryart/Guderian-montage.jpg

A portrait of the Reichsminister for economy


The air defense of the Reich suffered terribly. Severe shortage of armor had forced Hitler to release nearly all of the home defense AA batteries so they could hold back the flood of Soviet tanks. Nearly all aircraft assigned to home defense and to the west were committed to the eastern front to substitute for armored vehicles. Those that were still in the west continued their training before going to the slaughter of the east. The lack of fighters and FLAK guns allowed the British and American bomber fleets to roam at will over Germany dumping their deadly cargoes and hurting war production. The Hindenburg rail yards in Austria were utterly gutted by low flying British night bombers costing Germany 52 tanks ready for delivery to the front. This was not a unique event either.

Guderian went to Hitler asking for him to reactivate the SA as a sort of home guard to relive the line infantry divisions still in France the low countries and Norway. Hitler complained to him that the old men couldn't contain the French resistance and then stunned Guderian by releasing 75,000 skilled workers involved in war production to be drafted into the infantry. Guderian was furious saying that the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine were a bunch of useless shits and should release all their personel to the army and that the workers who made weapons for the troops should be let to stay. Raeder and Goring easily out manuevered the Panzer General and kept their men for hoped new offensives.

Guderian was burning out his spirits in a losing cause. Although his intelligence on the red army wasn't that bad he couldn't grasp the scope of what the winter counter offensive had done. By recapturing the Donets basin, Ukraine and Belaraus the Russians had greatly revived their manufacturing capability and were now pumping out t-34's at a rate of over 2000 per month. Veteran Siberian troops were passing on their lessons of how to attack German tanks successfuly. Most telling of all the infantry quality of the Red Army was greatly improving. Zhukov interviewed several successful company commanders and created new tables of organization first in the guards divisions then throughout the armys. The bolt action rifle was only kept for the snipers and nearly all of the troops were equipped with rapid firing sub machine guns. Grenades were emphasized far beyond marksmanship and morale soared. The Soviets now knew they could beat the Germans... they could beat the whole world

to be continued...

your thoughts?
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/japan-bombs-pearl-harbor-15.jpg
Zhukov who was the Marshal Ney of Stalin's army

[The Red]

SLEDGEHAMMER (CHAPTER 11)

On August the 1st the French resistance rose from the underground and went into the streets. All throughout the day German command posts and supply depots were bombed, sometimes through suicide on the part of the bomber with accounts of trucks laden with explosives striking depots and men running into groups of Germans before blowing themselves up. Men and women of the resistance began to take control of streets and sometimes entire villages for a short time. One famous example was the town of Oradur Sur Glen where the resistance aided by villagers hanged the villages Vichy collaborators before the Germans retook the town and massacred everyone who had not already fled.

Field Marshall Von Wietzelben, the German commander of the 7th Army was more than concerned by this development, he was terrified. He knew that German forces could crush this uprising but little could be spared for the defence of France from an amphibious invasion. Many of his colleauges had agreed with him that an Allied invasion was inevitable but that it would happen in 1943 and that any notion of it happening this year was absurd. This uprising proved them wrong. Why would the French throw themselves at the German occupiers in such a suicidal fashion unless they had back up?

He was proven right on the morning of August 2nd when 140,000 Allied troops landed on the Beaches near Cherbourg whilst a force of nearly 7000 Britons stormed the port itself. At Urville-Nacequeville 70,000 Americans landed at Red Beach and Blue Beach were they met almost no resistance due to the fact that the coastal artillery just outside the beaches were suffering from a lack of ammunition after the the disruption of the uprising and the majority of any ammunition being dedicated to putting down said revolt. By the end of the day American forces were engaging the Germans in the west of Cherbourg

In the east 30,000 Canadians and Free French stormed the beaches of Maupertus-Sur-Mer and also advanced without much resistance with the coastal defenses there not yet ready and the defenders also suffering from a lack of ammunition. The French fought with particular fanaticism and in the madness of the landing local Canadian commandrs warned them of creating a gap inbetween the the two beacheads. By the end of the day Franco-Canadian forces were also pushing into Cherbourg.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Infantry_waiting_to_move_off_%27Queen_White%27_Bea ch.jpg
Canadian troops advance up "Purple" beach

Further west 40.000 Britons landed at Landemer but became badly pinned down by German firepower in the region. The Germans whilst outnumbered had the advantage of large amounts of ammunition and had also recieved 12 of the new Panzer IV's and soon the two sides were engaged in a brutal tooth and nail struggle. As the sun rose higher into the sky it looked at some moments like the German may actually push the British bac into the sea and thus put the entire operation in jeapordy however local help from the Resistance and Allied superiority allowed the British to establish a beachead albeit at heavy cost with 17% casualties.

The assault on the port itself quicly turned into complete chaos as the majority of the first wave were either dead or wounded within an hour after the naval and air bombardment had proved ineffectual. The bombardments were stepped up as the remnants of the first wave tried desperately to defend their foothold from the coastal defenses. The second wave landed with less trouble but nevertheless took high casualites as the Germans refused to budge from their positions around the port and by the end of the day it was obvious that an evacuation may be neccessary however Lord Mountbatten, Supreme Commabder of the Operation refused to budge and ordered the belegured troops to hold out until they were rescued by Allied troops penetrating the cities defenses from east and west.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-291-1230-13%2C_Dieppe%2C_Landungsversuch%2C_tote_alliierte_ Soldaten.jpg
British troops of the first wave lay dead near Cherbourg

All throughout the year the Spaniards were recieving equipmen and supplies via Lend-Lease. American workers had came to help rebuild the battered country as well as large supplies of oil and coal and by early summer Spain was well on her way to economic recovery. The freed up workers had been trained thoroughly by the existing Spanish army especially ex-members the Blue Division who had experienced modern warfare first hand and had fought alongside the Germans. This experience was extremely valuable in instructing their fellow Spaniards in how to fight the German and by the end of summer they were also giving lectures to green American troops.


On August 3rd, a quarter of a million Spaniards crossed the Border into Vichy France. The attack began on the early hours of the morning and completely suprised the Vichy defenders who never believed that a fellow fascist power and friend would betray them. The effect was comparable to Barbarossa albeit on a smaller scale as the Spanish tore through the Vichy defenses, whose feeble army was mainly tied down helping the Germans contain the uprising. Many in the French forces changed sides quicly after surrendering as the Spanish sped through the south meeting almost no resistance. By the end of the day they had raised the Frenh flag over Toulouse and Marseille to the cheers of the Vichy population. However a conundrum met the Spanish as the liberated the camps of Republican refugees who had fled after the civil war. Many in the camps panicked and worried that the Spanish would keep them in the camps or maybe even ill them lie the Nazis were rumoured to be doing to their dissenters. It was to their complete suprise when Spanish officers stood up in crates and announced an amnesty for all inmates and pay to anyone who would join the fight against the Nazis. After 2 years of horror under the Germans there were few who did not jump at the chance to get revenge and soon liberated inmates were being spread throughout the Spanish Army.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Pipistrellobombing.jpg
Spanish planes bombing Marseille


By the end of the week most of the South had been liberated and Cherbourg had been successfully captured with the port facilities reasonably intact. The survivors of the disastorous raid on the port were found starving and almost out of ammunition. Only dozens had survived. However now the allies had a port and the first of a 16 division strong invasion force were now diembaring off the transports to liberate France. Vichy France had all but collapsed and the uprising remained uncrushed as the Allies rolled up France.

[BlairWitch749]

uh oh the germans are in big trouble

[BlairWitch749]

An impossible strategic situation (Chapter 12)

The fuhrer headquarters August 1942

Adolf Hitler poured over his tactical and topographical maps. The allies were landing in strength all over the Contein peninsula and a Spainish field army was surging through the Rhone valley almost unopposed. His ten understrength infantry divisions and two rebuilding armored divisions in the west had much less than one hundred thousand men and less than a hundred and fifty German tanks. Now that Americans and British were through the beach defenses little stood in their way till they reached the west wall.

Hitler ordered Guderian to release part of the precious eastern reserve to drive the allies into the sea and teach that god damn traitor Franco a lesson. Guderian loudly complained that it would take a long time for them to get there and it was better to just fall back on the west wall call up the SA to man it and try to hold the allies over the winter untill new forces could be raised to launch panzer counter attacks. Guderian was overruled yet again and 250 tanks and 100 assualt guns left their assembly areas east of warsaw headed to the western front

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1980-004-32%2C_Heinz_Guderian_in_Bouillon%2C_Frankreich.jpg/439px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1980-004-32%2C_Heinz_Guderian_in_Bouillon%2C_Frankreich.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1980-004-32%2C_Heinz_Guderian_in_Bouillon%2C_Frankreich.jpg )
The Minister of armaments overrule yet again

In any case it ended up being as Guderian said. It would take weeks for the Panzers to arrive on the Western front. The allies rapidly built up their lodgement around Cherbourg and poured men and material through as fast as the ships could be turned around. The capture of the airfield constellation around Caen proved critical to increasing the range and presence of the air umbrella. High command west now under the leadership of Field Marshal Kesselring if it had reserves available would have blocked off the peninsula and penned the allies in a WW1 type stalement but this wasn't to be. Rapidly advancing Spainish motorized divisions were surging through the country overrunning critical fuel depots and installations and succoring the increasingly impossible to contain French resistance.
http://gothicline.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/bundesarchiv_bild_183-j275672c_italien2c_albert_kesselring2c_oberst_ferd inand_hippel.jpg
Albert Kesselring the leader of high command west after his predecessor was removed for defeatism

It was all taken out of Kesselring's hands shortly after. The long quiet eastern front erupted in front of Brest-Litovsk. 4 Rifle armies and 2 tank armies surged forward to once again encircle the city and drive deep into central Poland. The Africa Corps and the 1st Panzer army fought back hard but suffered from cleverly placed Soviet anti tank fronts. The German tanks also lacked the necessary infantry support to hold any ground they retook. Covering Soviet infantry proved decisive they were no long afraid of the Germans instead they used their lessons from the winter, base of fire, double envelopements and fire blocks on withdrawal routes. Both sides took heavy losses as the Soviets were compelled to stop and lick their wounds after a 47 kilometer advance. Every last reserve Guderian had so carefully built up had to be committed either to stopping the flood in the west or slowing down Zhukov's southern drive.

By October 3rd the Germans were in complete chaos..... and thats when Zhukov unleashed his true storm

to be continued

your thoughts

[Typo]

I like!

But would Spain truly actually join the war? They didn't declare war on Germany even at the end.

[The Red]

I like!

But would Spain truly actually join the war? They didn't declare war on Germany even at the end.

Here there are incentives though unlike the original timeline.

[santosza]

This timeline is good but try and do some more information on other fronts, we need know what effect this is having on other parts of the front ?

Also include some maps as well.

[BlairWitch749]

The God of War (Chapter 12 part 2)

The Russo German border September 1942

Georgi Zhukov made his final inspections for Operation Mars (a name he had coined himself, privately he loved the idea of being the god of war) He had authored the plans of attack himself. The Germans had committed all of their operational reserves to slow down the Western allies and the Russian Southern advance. Rumania had ordered the German legation out of the country and changed sides greatly reducing Germany's fuel reserves. At 0 hour Mars would be unleashed. Tens of thousands of tanks, artillery pieces, aircraft and huge stocks of ammunition built up over the previous 6 months steadied themselves on the line.

Political officers and propaganda whipped up the Red Army into a frenzy.
Bread for bread blood for blood!
Kill the fascists who raped your motherland!
Kill the Germans this is your mother's prayer, do not count days do not count miles only count the number of Germans you have killed

This work was later criticized particularly by the western allies as turning the anger of the Soviets a to a hot burning fury. Just like when the Africa Corps had made their debut on the Russian front... the guards Russian infantry now with high morale and well supplied with tommy guns and grenades would scream NO MERCY NO MERCY NO QUARTER. Few prisoners if any would be taken. This was to be a blood battle
http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/Graphics/bagration2.jpg
Russian forces on the advance for operation Mars.

On September 14th when German reserves were non existant and their armor committed Zhukov unleashed his forces. Over 4000 bombing sorties were launched against airfields, rail yards, assembly points, ammo depots and front line positions. 12000 artillery pieces fired over 2 million rounds at the Germans from the light 76mm field guns to the heaviest railway cannons. The Germans 100 kilometers south of the Baltic were pulverized. Zhukov concentrated nearly all of his fire power on a 19 kilometer front. The two infantry regiments from the 1st East Prussian Wolfhound infantry division were nearly wiped out. Corps of T-34's laden with veteran infantry surged through the breach to cause havoc and drive like hell for Danzig.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Street_fight_babruysk_28th_or_29th_june_1944.jpg
A Russian Guards soldier advancing through western Poland

After the whole was blown in the front specially trained groups of Russian infantry equipped with explosive charges and backed by KV-1 tanks flowed north and south of the breach rolling up the German static infantry lines. In 48 hours Army Group North was in serious trouble as the Guards Tank armies were surging nearly unopposed through western Poland. Busch who had taken over for the defeatist Leeb at Army Group North desperately tried to stem the tide committing cooks, clerks and even Hitler Youth detachments to try to stem Zhukov's tide. They utterly lacked the weapons to stop a T-34 and the infantry quality of the Russians was greatly increased over the previous year. Army Group North's flank was rolled up and they were pinned against the sea as Zhukov's unstoppable Siberian armored corps surged into Danzig and captured it after a brisk bloodbath in which bombers and artillery were liberally employed.

Germany now faced a critical situation

to be continued...

your thoughts

http://funnytogo.com/stories/Battle%20for%20Berlin/russeninberlinkl9ax.jpg
Russian troops capture city hall in Danzig

[The Red]

To the Rhine (Chapter 13)

The Spanish drive north had finallly run out of steam around Dijon however the damage had been done. The Germans could not force the allies to a stalemate in the north whilst the Spanish had gone forward with full speed and by August 17 the remaining 5 battered German divisions in the west of France were trapped in what would become known as the Nantes pocket as the Spanish and anglo-Americans met for the first time. This was a staggering victory for the allies as the entire front was blown open.

Through their campaign they had been greeted as both liberators and occupiers. In many cases the local communists in the resistance had refused to cooperate with the Spaniards and in a few isolated incidents the Spanish troops fought the local communists in vicious hand to hand battles. This led to outrage by Stalin who had never been easy with the Spanish joining the allied cause in the first place. He argued that the Spanish were purging the communists from the resistance in an effort to wipe out communism in France, the Spanish argued that the communists were being diretly ordered from Moscow to disrupt their advance as much as possible and take over the country in a violent revolution. Neither side backed down and both in the midst of controversy threatened to make a separate peace with the Germans. It was only Francos fear of Allied and/0r German reprisal and Stalins clear advantage on the Eastern Front which prevented this from happening. However this would leave very painful, open wounds.

By mid September Paris had been taken by the Free French. The crowds flocked out to meet their patriotic liberators as General De Gualle paraded thorugh the same route as the Germans had in 1940 and the French in 1918 before them. Shortly after Reims fell as well and on September the 29th, Antwerp followed suit. For the western allies approval for the war had never been higher. Any talk of a vote of no confidence in parliament was laughed out and in Spain Franco had found a cause to unite his people behind, something which every Spaniard despised; the Nazis.

The falangists in the government had violently opposed going to war with Germany in the first place and the financial and economic incentives had kept them quiet at best. Fearful of a coup, Franco purged his own government of Falangists. Some were forced into early retirement, others were jailed and in extreme cases some street thugs were hanged. By the end of September what Franco called "The Falangist infection" had been destroyed and anyone else who opposed the war kept their mouth tightly shut.

In Germany the string of Western victories had come as just as muh as a shock as the ones in the East. Kesselring now begged Hitler for more troops stating that the entire front would collapse if this alarming rate of advance was not addressed. OKH truthfully replied that the front in Russia was even nearer to collapse and had to take priority. With this in mind he was ordered to abandon France and the Low Countries altogether and focus whatever was left on the west wall. Even Hitler agreed with this outlook, the reality of the fall of Danzig had not been lost on him. So throughout Autumn Germn troops solemnly retreated eastwards as the cheering occupied peoples welcomed the allies. German morale plummeted, it was clear now to the entire country that the war was lost. The only question now was who would take Germany first; east or west?

For Mussolini the situation was nearly as bad as it was for Hitler. Except he was not nearly as feared or had the sdame amount of control Hitler had. Whilst a coup inside the Nazi party or the Army was considered madness he knew that behind his back serious discussions were going on over the future of both him and Italy's role in the Axis. Since September all of the Italys western border had been surrounded by Spanish troops. The allies had pressured Franco to drive into northern Italy but he had bluffed at the time that the main focus should remain on France and unless the italians launched a counter-attack they would be let be for now. However intense discussions between Franco and Mussolini and managed to get Il Duce to pull Italian troops out of France on October 2nd and soon he had managed to negotiate a truce between Italy and the allied forces and tals were held in recently liberated Marseille.

The Italians went there hoping to ensure Italian independence and that their present holdings would be respected. The Soviets and the French demanded immediate unconditional surrender. For the west they reminded the French and the Soviets that as the war was reaching a final critical stage no troops could be spared for Italian occupation. Ironically the Italians backed this position as they tried desperately to at least avoid Soviet occupation.

By the 20th of October an agreement had been reached. Italy would withdraw all forces from outside it's 1937 borders and would leave the Axis. The grand fascist council would remain in chrage just now however Italy would face a limited occupation at the end of the war and democratic elections would be held, where the Fascists would be allowed to run alongside any other party. It was in no doubt a defeat for Mussolini but not a critical one and he could use the time it would take for Germany to be defeated to great effect.

The reaction of the Italian surrender in Berlin was one of cold bitterness. Hitler nearly had a stroke according to aides and they noted later that often the veins in his forehead would how as he ranted on about "the traitors to Fascism". He ordered an all out attack on Italy but was quickly informed of the absurdity of this order. Not only were German border forces feeble but the Italians were still a force to be reconed with and a a third front would likely lead to immenent collapse.

The Axis was unravelling...

[PhilKearny]

Good show, Comrades.

[Gwendolyn Ingolfsson]

Oh I like it. I just finished reading through this thing and it's nice. Plausible, too, in most parts though I'm not sure of Hitler freaking out quite so badly and so often. True, he did in OTL, but that was much later in the war & after years of injections from his quack "doctor." Over all however it works for me. :)

[BlairWitch749]

Oh I like it. I just finished reading through this thing and it's nice. Plausible, too, in most parts though I'm not sure of Hitler freaking out quite so badly and so often. True, he did in OTL, but that was much later in the war & after years of injections from his quack "doctor." Over all however it works for me. :)

He stopped being rational in the winter of 1941... when he fired Rundsted, Guderian, and Bock.... (the grownups )and just ordered fanatical holding of all territory

[Cylon_Number_14]

I just read through the whole TL. EPIC WIN. Your titles are very dramatic and the story is heading towards several different kinds of awesome.

I have a question: If the war seamlessly shifts from a dogpile against the Nazis to USSR vs The World, would it all still be considered World War 2? Personally, I think it should stay known as one war if there isn't actually a day of rest between them.

[BlairWitch749]

2.5 is under consideration

[Gwendolyn Ingolfsson]

He stopped being rational in the winter of 1941... when he fired Rundsted, Guderian, and Bock.... (the grownups )and just ordered fanatical holding of all territory

Ah, true. Forgot about that.

2.5 is under consideration

It would be nice to see the Soviets go down as well by the end of all this, if it doesn't result in too much of a bloodbath. A post-war world with no totalitarian ideologies running rampant could hardly help being an improvement.

[LittleSpeer]

this is not bad at all. ROMMEL, MANSTEIN, AND GUDERIAN MUST LIVE THO!!

[BlairWitch749]

this is not bad at all. ROMMEL, MANSTEIN, AND GUDERIAN MUST LIVE THO!!

Manstein killed himself... Rrommel and Guderian are still linchpin characters for the moment

[The Red]

NEMESIS (CHAPTER 14)

By the end of October, Army Group North was facing a desperate strategic situations, they had been trapped in the remains of East Prussia and North Eastern Poland and Zhukov. Hitler ordered that the entire pocket become a giant Festung against the Soviets but with such a large area, a hostile populace and a severe lack of ammunition and supplies Busch knew that he could not hold the area for much longer than a fortnight. He begged for evacuation and Rommel even had plans drawn up for a dunkirk style plan which would involve the usage the majority of the German navy and Rhine river barges. Hitler, however stayed stubborn on the matter and announced that there would be retreat even by individual boats and that any soldier found abandoning his post would be shot on the spot. Zhukov knew that the Army Goup was too weak to mount any counter offensive even in conjuction with central German forces and that thus they were not much if a threat. Hence he used newly formed divisions of liberated Soviet prisoners and frsh conscripts to hold them in their pocket until Germany proper had been destroyed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2007-0009%2C_Sowjetunion%2C_J%C3%BCdischer_Kriegsgefang ener.jpg
Soviet prisoners being liberated near Lwow face immediate remobilisation, an order gratefully accepted by the majority of Soviet troops who sought revenge against their brutal captors

As the Germans broke into an all out retreat similar to the winter of 1941 (albeit on a smaller scale) the Soviets began to discover the horrors that the Nazis had commited during their occupation. In camps such as Treblinka and Autswisch it was discoevered that the German had begun to slaughter Jews, homosexuals, communists and other peoples they labeled as below them. The first rumours of his had been hinted when during the quick battle of Warsaw the Jewish ghetto had risen up and they had revealed deportations to the Red Army. At first the allies had feared they were being sent to be used as slave labour but the reality was much worse. Soviet troops found large piles of hair, glasses, shoes gold fillings and jewelry which had been stripped from the bodies of the dead.

Soviet troops were encouraged to visit these camps whenever they had leave before the final battle, for new conscripts it was more or less compulsory and Anglo-America envoys were invited to inspect them for themselves. Clement Attlee, the most prominent member of the Brtish army was rumoured to have been seen weeping at the horrors he had seen after a Soviet staff officer told him that what he had seen was the camp after two weeks of Soviet liberation were food and clothing had been rushed in and that he shoul have seen it a fortnight before hand.

Every Soviet soldier who saw the camps and many who saw the footage on the newsreels were giving a feeling much greater than high morale. After the war psychologists would crudely brand it as "Bloodlust".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/Holocaust123.JPG

Zhukov however did not visit any of the camps, he wished to keep a level head for the coming battle. One which would be the final encore of the Third Reich. By Halloween the Soviets had crossed the Oder at several points after a botched attempt failed to destroy all the bridges over the river allowing no less than 4 full strength Soviet infantry armies and 2 tank armies to smash the Germans around Seelow and quickly encircled Berlin. Zhukovs two pincers finally met at Nauen completing encirclement in rejoice.

Now came the battle for the City itself.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Na_Berlin.jpg

The Germans, who had not expected Danzig to fall so quickly or for Army Group North to be trapped, had not been able to oganise a proper defense of the city and thus desperately all troops caught in the enciriclement were hurriedly evacuated to the city as the Soviets quickly followed, hungry for the kill. All males aged 10 - 80 were immediately drafted and oredered to find whatever they could find. Also for the first time in the war the Germans drafted large amounts of women.

Hitler decided to remain in the city declaring that the final battle would be fought there and Germanys fate hung in the balance. Goering promised him that he could supply the city from the air and that he could at least limited air superiority in the sector.

Wary of this the Soviets sent whatever air untis available to fight over the capital with the western allies also sending large amounts of fighters and bombers over the city. By mid-Novemeber the Soviets were beginning toi advance inside the city and bombing became impractical however the Luftwaffe had been gutted trying to save their capital and after a fortnight of constant fighting in the air the Allies were the clear victor.

However the fighting continued all throughout November as the Germans fought with a mix of fear and fanaticism. No quarter was spared on either side with both the oviets and the Germans shooting their prisoners and deserters regardless of age or sex.

As the Soviets came increasingly closer to Hitlers modified air shelter under the chancellery he ordered Rommel on the outside to launch an all out counter-attack to save the city. He knew this was madness but also knew that SS agents were watching him and his family very closely. So on November 25th he launched the final Germana offenisve of the war using every unit he could find by stripping Army Group South and West.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-277-0836-04,_Russland,_erbeutete_russische_T-34_Panzer.jpg
Captured T-34's were used extensively by the Germans in the winter counter-offensive were they became desperate for any armour whatsoever

The counter attack caught the Soviets by suprise however once they regained their composure the offenive was quickly brought to a halt by the sheer wieght of Soviet numbers, firepower and air control. By the November 30th the offensive petered out after only advancing 4 miles. It was not known to Rommel that the day before Hitler and the Nazi elite inside Berlin had killed themselves.

As word got out he drastically ordered a purge of what was left of the SS in his command and all German troops in the East retreated west were they hoped the might be better treated by the western allies who had crossed the defenceless Rhine and liberated the north during the Battle of Berlin. Days after Berlin had fallen Army Group North was shattered by the Soviets and a week after wards the rear guard forces Rommel had left behind led by Heinrici were butchered.

Germanys war was over.

http://img2.allposters.com/images/LIFPOD/1221275.jpg

The Soviets and the West were about to meet on the Weser.

[LittleSpeer]

keep on trucking

[LeoXiao]

This is a good TL, rather detailed. Good work.

[BlairWitch749]

The great trek to the West (Chapter 15)

Rommel's HQ Army Group Center, Weser River, December 1942

Erwin Rommel lamented at his inability to hold back the Red Army and nearly all of his precious reserves had been spent in the futile counterattack towards Berlin. Zhukov's victorious columns refused to stop for the winter and continued to drive his shattered army and army group south backwards. Rommel originally pondered giving a death battle in front of the river but upon the pleading of his staff that with Hitler gone the war was no longer to be a blood fued he changed his mind. Despite the fact that most of the regular bridges had been ruined by marauding allied bombers Rommel put his pioneer companies to work making discrete crossing sites so he could drive his exauhsted army into the arms of the west.

He would try with all of his might to surrender the rump of Army Group Center and South to the Spainish army which had just reached the city of Kassel. Given the previous aid they had given Franco in his civil war Rommel hoped that the Generalissimo would give him the best terms. Rommel also felt the Spainish were in the best position to accept the surrender since they were the farthest advanced of the western allies. The Americans British and Canadians were all over the Rhine but were slowed by the winter weather and not having enough divisions to cover all the ground they had captured. The Spainish field army had been the best performing force in the theater to date.

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/69/71369-004-F465C694.jpg
Rommel inspecting the 12th infantry division. After Hitler's death he became the defacto leader of the German army.

Marshal of the Soviet Union Zhukov had no intention of letting Rommel and his men escape to the west... no he needed those mules for a good 20 year term in Siberia. Zhukov unleashed his tanks after Berlin fell with the intention of steamrolling or capturing everything left of the German army. His luck had run its due course though. His veteran infantry forces were engaged in mass pillaging, looting, drinking and raping throughout the German heartland which severely reduced effectiveness and security. Rommel personally led the 20th Panzer division and its 41 remaining tanks (the strongest division left in the army) right into the heart of Zhukov's veteran 1st shock army. Many of the regimental and battalion staffs along with the plain old enlisted men were drunk and had neglected to set up even rudimentary defensive positions. The panzer companies surged forward advancing over 15 miles destroying larges stocks of fuel and ammunition and completely disorganizing one of Zhukov's best formations.

http://visualrian.com/storage/PreviewWM/0218/25/021825.jpg
Zhukov had no problem shooting people who failed him. These machine gunners would soon feel his wrath.

Zhukov had many of that army's senior leadership shot, all their previous victories erased by a couple nights of hard drinking. Rommel worked his troops up into a frenzy to give one battle before making for the Spainish lines.
All the last batches of ammunition that had been spared were given their final issue. Zhukov's tanks tried to overrun the lines but were stunned by intense and desperate fire from every available German artillery piece. The Luftwaffe made their last bombing runs of this part of the war before flying to Spainish controlled airfields to surrender. The previously grounded JU-88's ME-110's HE-111's bombed and strafed Zhukov's long columns. ME-109's and FW-190's made their final sorties and devastated the red air force claiming over 280 kills in one day. German tanks firing their last batches of armor piercing and high explosive rounds destroyed Zhukov's spearhead companies before crossing the Weser and using their final rations of fuel to make for the succor of Franco's army.

Reichsminister of economy Heinz Guderian and his staff (many of them veteran panzerwaffe commanders) led a group of 16 new tiger tanks (the only ones to see combat on the Weser) into the midst of the 2nd Guards army. The new tank proved a winner from the start with its deadly high velocity 88mm gun killing T-34's at well over 1500 meters. The tiny group killed 70 Soviet tanks and having run out of ammunition they turned around and headed for the Weser.

http://hosted.wargamer.com/Panzer/guderian5.jpg
Guderian inspecting one of the tanks in his battle group

Rommel had allready opened communication with Franco's field forces and requested surrender of his armies at Kassel. Franco perhaps with undue haste looking to be the great victor of the war said that any German soldier in uniform could surrender to his field army. He then instructed his motorized infantry to advance right up to the Weser and start bringing Rommel and his boys in. Over 350,000 members of Army Group Center and South surrendered to Franco and his men removing the last field force from Germany's order of battle.

Franco's 16th Barcelona infantry reigment was the first to make contact with the Soviets at Beverengen on the Weser. It was a frosty reception to say the least. Stalin and Zhukov complained loudly that the German eastern armies which had raped the motherland had been given safe harbor by Franco. Their revenge would not be short in comming.
http://www.telefonica.net/web2/fmurilla/img/franco.jpg
Franco reviews his victorious troops who captured Army Group Center and South. In doing so he became Stalin's public enemy number 1

to be continued....

your thoughts on the end off WW2.0?

[David Floyd]

I like it!

Question: What is the state of current Soviet logistics, and can they sustain the Red Army in an offensive against the West?

[The Red]

I like it!

Question: What is the state of current Soviet logistics, and can they sustain the Red Army in an offensive against the West?

Thankyou :)

That question will be dealt with in my next update which I might be able to crack out by tonight.

Basically they're logistics system is poor in the short term as they've dangerously over extended themselves to finish off the Germans. However in the long run the drastically smaller casualites and quicker retrieval of land (and more intact land at that) will lead to their logistics being superior to OTL.

[Father Sergey Ryzhkov]

Your timeline seems quite plausible but for one detail: in the 1941-1942 the Red Army was incapable of a Bagration-scale encirclement operation. This was due to the utter lack of large armour units. The majority of the mobile units were just cavalry corpses in certain cases reinforced with tank brigades. So I cannot imagine enclosing a pocket that large. Nevertheless, minor encirclements (say, Kalinin or Rzhev are still possible. So in my opinion the Soviets would have pushed the army group to or even from Smolensk, leaving it severely battered but not crushed. In this case both the 1942 winter assaults (in the center and in the south) shall certainly succeed which pushes the recent events of your timeline forward to 1943. Nevertheless, at this point you won't even consider rewriting it, so keep on working. I like this so far.

[BlairWitch749]

Your timeline seems quite plausible but for one detail: in the 1941-1942 the Red Army was incapable of a Bagration-scale encirclement operation. This was due to the utter lack of large armour units. The majority of the mobile units were just cavalry corpses in certain cases reinforced with tank brigades. So I cannot imagine enclosing a pocket that large. Nevertheless, minor encirclements (say, Kalinin or Rzhev are still possible. So in my opinion the Soviets would have pushed the army group to or even from Smolensk, leaving it severely battered but not crushed. In this case both the 1942 winter assaults (in the center and in the south) shall certainly succeed which pushes the recent events of your timeline forward to 1943. Nevertheless, at this point you won't even consider rewriting it, so keep on working. I like this so far.


The idea was to have the Germans destroy themselves advancing to Moscow and leave their flanks in the air making them more vulnerable to Zhukov's great counterattack. Our Pod made Moscow 41 sort of like Rostov 41... Kliest took Rostov but in pushing so far he left nothing to screen his flanks (A few Hungarian and other satelite regiments) and the Soviets tore into his flanks and forced him back

Army Group center by forcing resources over the Moscow-Volga canal left their allready long and undermanned flanks in even worse shape. With concentric attacks on the wings they would be ripe pickings

[The Red]

Eye of the Storm (Chapter 16)

With the war in Europe apparently over, the peoples of the allied nations rejoiced. In all the allied capitals thousands of people spontaneously came out to celebrate the crushing of the Axis forces. Bars ran out of alcohol and bakers ran out of cakes, there was a festival mood in London the likes of which hadn't been seen since the Thames froze over.

http://www.toronto.ca/archives/images/f1257_sA_it0195.jpg
The Canadians first hear of the German unconditional surrender

However the Soviets were taking advantage of what they saw as being merely a lull before the final battle against their greatest enemy since Marx first put ink to paper; the Capitalists. Throughout December the Soviets worked tirelessly to enhance their armed forces. Military equipment remained the main priority however the ginat Soviet industrial machine now increasingly focused on trucks and tractors. Agricultural workers avoided conscription and many newly conscripted men found themselves not being taken to the frontline but to the fields (generally they did not oppose this).

The focus was clear, if the Soviet Union was to fight the west it could no longer rely on Lend Lease, thus it had to feed itself and it would have to rely on Soviet vehicles and trains to supply the Red army. The sense of urgency which had existed when fighting the Germans was still there, it was merely more rational.

http://www.uoregon.edu/~kimball/images/1943%20URAL%20wmn%20stacks%20bombs%20Wgn37.jpg
Despite it being Christmas day, the factories continued to produce munitions, trucks and tanks

With Soviet troops increasingly recovering from the Berlin offensive and with allied troops beginning to be moved to the Pacific, Stalin sent his diplomats on several diplomatic missions to try and ensure their trust. Molotov on Hogmanay met Churchill where he promised democratic elections in Poland to be held in the Spring, a fortnight later in New York he announced that the Soviets would enter the Pacific war in the summer of 1943.

Whilst the western leaders took his promises with a pinch of salt they knew they could not exactly challenge the Red Army at the this moment in time and thus tryed to hope that they were genuine.

And all across the Weser the Soviets became increasingly reinvigorated...

http://www.schoepfweb.com/mGallery/statues/soviet%20soldier.jpg

[sloreck]

At this point in time the Red AF had yet to fully rebuild and have more modern types. Even with shifting to the Pacific US/UK (and to some extent France) will have a significant qualitative edge. Also, shifting production like you have mentioned is just not possible - even with use of whatever they have over-run in Germany & Eastern Europe. Additionally, there were whole classes of war supplies that were almost completely supplied by lend-lease which will stop the day the war ends (except perhaps for some food). Lastly, there is no way Stalin can keep this massive military buildup secret- what goes on in the USSR can be hidden but once it starts moving west US/UK intelligence contacts in Poland & Germany will report it, and I'm sure inspire some photo-recon flights, which the Red AF can't stop (photo Mosquitoes or P-38's).

All the sweet talk in the world won't conceal this, and it will take many many months for the Soviets to get enough troops & stuff to the new border. Absent almost ASB stupidity, while the US/UK will get pushed back, no way Stalin is going to be swimming in the Channel - I see the Sovs over-reaching, and as their supply lines get chopped up.....

[BlairWitch749]

At this point in time the Red AF had yet to fully rebuild and have more modern types. Even with shifting to the Pacific US/UK (and to some extent France) will have a significant qualitative edge. Also, shifting production like you have mentioned is just not possible - even with use of whatever they have over-run in Germany & Eastern Europe. Additionally, there were whole classes of war supplies that were almost completely supplied by lend-lease which will stop the day the war ends (except perhaps for some food). Lastly, there is no way Stalin can keep this massive military buildup secret- what goes on in the USSR can be hidden but once it starts moving west US/UK intelligence contacts in Poland & Germany will report it, and I'm sure inspire some photo-recon flights, which the Red AF can't stop (photo Mosquitoes or P-38's).

All the sweet talk in the world won't conceal this, and it will take many many months for the Soviets to get enough troops & stuff to the new border. Absent almost ASB stupidity, while the US/UK will get pushed back, no way Stalin is going to be swimming in the Channel - I see the Sovs over-reaching, and as their supply lines get chopped up.....

You have to bear in mind that Stalin recaptured the Ukraine and the Donets Basin very early and has reintegrated the pows on Zhukov's suggestion. The western allies in the winter of 1942 don't have anywhere near the material strength or mass of weapons they would have in 1944. they only have 16 divisions in the field plus the spainish field army and some improvised french ones.

[marcus_aurelius]

So V-E Day's a good two years earlier... and the Sovs had an edge in Europe :eek:... will we see war between the Allies and USSR?

Marc A

[BlairWitch749]

So V-E Day's a good two years earlier... and the Sovs had an edge in Europe :eek:... will we see war between the Allies and USSR?

Marc A

hearts of iron doomsday here we come

[BlairWitch749]

I fear the safety of our entire way of life (Chapter 17)

Franco's tactical HQ Kessel Germany January 1942

The second world war had brought suffering to many peoples of Europe but Spain was not one of them. The deal Franco had made with the western allies had paid off in spades. For less than 20,000 casualties, the west had upgraded 4 of his corps to the highest scale of motorized warfare. Generous American and British economic aid was rapidly restoring the shattered infrastructure and economy of his nation after years of internal fighting and strife.

Gibraltar would soon be returned to his juristiction. The pictures of the immense suffering in the Dachau concentration camp had greatly improved support for the war. Franco considered himself one of the big winners; however trouble appeared on the horizon.

Franco still had connections that had intelligence throughout Russia that he had developed during his own bloody three year civil war. What they told him wasn't good. Stalin's war wasnt over. Franco had been nervous as the better of the western divisions were pulled away from the Weser for deployment to the Pacific. In particular the transfer of the British 7th Armored, American 2nd armored and American 3rd infantry hurt the total position in Germany as they were prewar formations that had a high percentage of seasoned and talented officers. Franco now had the largest force in the western portion of the country with his 12 divisions of which only 2 were armored.

http://www.historycentral.com/BIO/people/images/franco.gif
The Caudillo was one of the few to see the dangers approaching Western Europe

Franco did have ace up his sleave in case the Soviets reopened hostilities. Erwin Rommel and his 30 divisions. They had met face to face when Rommel surrendered his army. The meeting had been ammicable and Rommel kept good order amongst his tired troops who were looking forward to going home. Franco invited Rommel back to his headquarters to make an offer.

Following that meeting of which the contents have never been disclosed to the public the Spainish army dramatically slowed down their disarming and discharing of the German army to a snails pace. In particular the Panzer divisions were put at the end of the line. Stalin lodged protests via the inter allied commission. Franco politely informed him that he had far more German prisoners than he had soldiers in his modest field army. Stalin bitterly remarked that Franco had no such troubles disarming the Republicans during the civil war.

http://digilander.libero.it/Bologna16/volpi/erwin-rommel.jpg
Rommel after he made his dark deal with Franco

Franco's spies also detected a reorganization and rearming of his far left wing enemies both behind his lines and back home in Madrid. The Caudillo went to De Gaulle who was equally concerned about growing unrest both in the armaments factories and in the coal mines. Those two leaders became the only ones to see the Red Strom coming. Franco had prepared some and his 12 divisions were among the best in the theater but would they be enough against over 100 combat tested Soviet ones?

to be continued...

your thoughts?

[Hyperion]

I'm sorry but I must call bologna.

The idea that Britain would give up Gibraltar is, quite truthfully, bull.

I apologize for souding offensive, but that is in my personal opinion a very ill concieved thing to do. At this point in time, Gibraltar is a key piece of real estate for Britain. Even with fighting over in Europe, they need the base to move troops to the Pacific.

I would strongly urge you to remove that terrible mistake.:(

[BlairWitch749]

I'm sorry but I must call bologna.

The idea that Britain would give up Gibraltar is, quite truthfully, bull.

I apologize for souding offensive, but that is in my personal opinion a very ill concieved thing to do. At this point in time, Gibraltar is a key piece of real estate for Britain. Even with fighting over in Europe, they need the base to move troops to the Pacific.

I would strongly urge you to remove that terrible mistake.:(

If Hitler invaded Hell I would have nice things to say about the devil - Churchill

They were faced by an impossible situation. With Stalin's rapid advance to the Polish border they needed to invade western europe right away and the massive American buildup just hadn't provided enough fruit yet. Churchill was a supporter of Franco during the civil war and made a dark deal... not much unlike the destroyers for bases thing except this was a spainish field army for bases

[Cylon_Number_14]

I love how Francisco Franco has become a major hero in this Timeline. Funny how fast one can become "one of the good guys".

Oh, and am I the only one who thinks that Franco in all those pictures looks like one's favorite story-telling uncle rather than a tin-horn dictator?

[Hyperion]

If Hitler invaded Hell I would have nice things to say about the devil - Churchill

They were faced by an impossible situation. With Stalin's rapid advance to the Polish border they needed to invade western europe right away and the massive American buildup just hadn't provided enough fruit yet. Churchill was a supporter of Franco during the civil war and made a dark deal... not much unlike the destroyers for bases thing except this was a spainish field army for bases

Sorry, but the destroyers for bases things is not a good comparison.

With destroyers for bases, the US gave Britain 50 destroyers, in return for permission to lease areas in several British controlled territories to build military bases, airfields, military hospitals, and some port facilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyers_for_bases

While the deal allowed the US to set up new military bases beyond US territory, in no case whatsoever was sovereignty over the local populace transfered.

A more realistic scenario which you will need to put in post haste, would be the British perhaps reafirming the sovereign right to Gibraltar, in exchange for selling large quantities of war material to Spain as a discount, and opening up favorable trade agreements.

Something that you will add in regards to Gibraltar would be extending permission for Spanish citizens to have better access to the sovereign territory.

I look forward to your rewrite:)

[BlairWitch749]

Sorry, but the destroyers for bases things is not a good comparison.

With destroyers for bases, the US gave Britain 50 destroyers, in return for permission to lease areas in several British controlled territories to build military bases, airfields, military hospitals, and some port facilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyers_for_bases

While the deal allowed the US to set up new military bases beyond US territory, in no case whatsoever was sovereignty over the local populace transfered.

A more realistic scenario which you will need to put in post haste, would be the British perhaps reafirming the sovereign right to Gibraltar, in exchange for selling large quantities of war material to Spain as a discount, and opening up favorable trade agreements.

Something that you will add in regards to Gibraltar would be extending permission for Spanish citizens to have better access to the sovereign territory.

I look forward to your rewrite:)

War is hell :cool: Generous trade terms and help in requipping the Spainish army where just not going to be enough to induce Franco to declare war on the Nazi's. In the fall of 1942 he had an experienced army of 350,000 men whilst the western allies including the commonwealth only had 16 divisions available of which only 4 had any combat experience. Franco's bribe whilst steep was highly necessary in order to get enough boots on the ground to reoccupy France and meet the Soviets as far east possible. For now its the Weser had he not come in it would have been the Rhine or possibly the Meuse

[Good Habit]

Generous trade terms and help in requipping the Spainish army where just not going to be enough to induce Franco to declare war on the Nazi's.

Agreed - unless he can show something to his nationalist followers that looks like restoring Spain's pride and glory, the switch is just not in the cards. And to assure that, it has to be a prize that is a valuable symbol (and not rational things like food, money, and equipment). So, while ceding Gibraltar is a huge humiliation to Britain, it's exactly that kind of gift that the Spanish soul needs. Probably, no other British politician save Churchill could have done the deal - the others would mostly have preferred the Red Army in Calais and Paris to the Spaniards in Gibraltar.

There is one point, OTOH, that I didn't really get - how did Franco manage to withdraw the Blue Division from Russia? (Travel would have to be trough Germany and France - and Hitler doesn't like defecters - so even if the troops are recalled 10 days prior to the announcement of the switch, this order would have raised some eyebrows, and alerted the Germans...

[BlairWitch749]

Agreed - unless he can show something to his nationalist followers that looks like restoring Spain's pride and glory, the switch is just not in the cards. And to assure that, it has to be a prize that is a valuable symbol (and not rational things like food, money, and equipment). So, while ceding Gibraltar is a huge humiliation to Britain, it's exactly that kind of gift that the Spanish soul needs. Probably, no other British politician save Churchill could have done the deal - the others would mostly have preferred the Red Army in Calais and Paris to the Spaniards in Gibraltar.

There is one point, OTOH, that I didn't really get - how did Franco manage to withdraw the Blue Division from Russia? (Travel would have to be trough Germany and France - and Hitler doesn't like defecters - so even if the troops are recalled 10 days prior to the announcement of the switch, this order would have raised some eyebrows, and alerted the Germans...

They were recalled after the collapse of army group center... think of it like the otl pull out of the blue division except 2 years earlier

[Sean Mulligan]

The Soviets wouldn't try to conquer Europe. At most they would try to get a larger part of Germany in their sphere of influence. They would let the large French and Italian Communist parties to gain influence in the West rather then conquest. They still suffered losses fighting Germany and have a lot of rebuilding to do.

[The Red]

The Soviets wouldn't try to conquer Europe. At most they would try to get a larger part of Germany in their sphere of influence. They would let the large French and Italian Communist parties to gain influence in the West rather then conquest. They still suffered losses fighting Germany and have a lot of rebuilding to do.

They're vastly superior to western forces at this point and the A-bomb seems miles away. Because of this I don't see why the Soviets wouldn't have a go.

[BlairWitch749]

The Soviets wouldn't try to conquer Europe. At most they would try to get a larger part of Germany in their sphere of influence. They would let the large French and Italian Communist parties to gain influence in the West rather then conquest. They still suffered losses fighting Germany and have a lot of rebuilding to do.

They saved two and a half full years of war on their territory and they allready control Germany up to the Weser. Stalin has a decisive manpower advantage. This isn't 1945 when the allies have 6 full strength and combat tested field armies on line... they have less than 30 divisions, its a golden opportunity

[Hyperion]

They saved two and a half full years of war on their territory and they allready control Germany up to the Weser. Stalin has a decisive manpower advantage. This isn't 1945 when the allies have 6 full strength and combat tested field armies on line... they have less than 30 divisions, its a golden opportunity

Nor is it 1945, when the reds actually had competent military forces.

You are still wrong, and I will see the rewrite please.:):o

[BlairWitch749]

Nor is it 1945, when the reds actually had competent military forces.

You are still wrong, and I will see the rewrite please.:):o

The equipment advantage is decidely in their favor (less than 600 shermans vs over 2000 t-34s)... and the infantry have two years of experience against the German army and we detailed Zhukov's changes in their tactics.

We are not saying that they have the same level of seasoned and talented command staffs they had in 1944 but they have experienced success against a skilled adversary and should be able to deploy them selves with some success against an enemy that they outnumber 3-1

[Leistungsfähiger Amerikan]

I am suprised there are people saying that the USSR wouldn't move towards Western Europe...I mean, this is Stalin!! He's crazy! With an actually advantage, even if it is only a slim one, I think he'd be completely willing to move against the Western Allies.

[BlairWitch749]

I am suprised there are people saying that the USSR wouldn't move towards Western Europe...I mean, this is Stalin!! He's crazy! With an actually advantage, even if it is only a slim one, I think he'd be completely willing to move against the Western Allies.


He has HUGE potential tactical and strategic advantage with war erupting in spring 1943... plus he is starting at the Weser he doesn't have to go very far and he has potential allies and 5th columnists in the areas he wants to attack

[marcus_aurelius]

He has HUGE potential tactical and strategic advantage with war erupting in spring 1943... plus he is starting at the Weser he doesn't have to go very far and he has potential allies and 5th columnists in the areas he wants to attack

And with no nukes, I think Stalin's bound to have a go for it. Oops, the Bear's on the march...

Marc A

[The Red]

AND ALL THINGS SHALL END (CHAPTER 18)

The kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth upon the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation, 6. 15

http://www.belarusguide.com/images/WWII/Red_Army_attack.jpg

Klaus Fuchs stood in the warm glow of his allocated house near Los Alamos. The party was going well and he had recieved many generous gifts from his co-workers. The fire crackled in the background as he poured Champagne to his respected guests, a luxury in wartime, even though the Nazi menace had been crushed rationing remained tight. The Pacific effort had had to take one for the team for Europe to be wrapped up and it seemed all the allies had to look forward to was a long, hard struggle against Japan. However in most peoples minds it was a stuggle they would certainly win, after all the main enemy had been defeated and he and his co-workers would soon have a device which could wipe entire cities out of existance. All around him were the assorted physicists and military men that made up the Manhattan Project: Oppenheimer, Szilárd, Fermi, Groves. All of them geniuses and all of them the greatest possible threat to Marx's vision.

As the flash of light from his hidden bomb threw him back he wondered whether the American people would ever hear of him or the project and whther or not they would always be so certain of the inevitability of their victory...

On March 10th 1943, the ideological stuggle which had been predicted a century before finally became reality. At around 4:00 AM Pe-2s and Sturmoviks left their nests in the hundreds and began a massive bombardment of allied airfields. In the first few hours many allied planes were destroyed on the ground in the confusion similar to Barbarossa. Hundreds of Soviet artillery pieces went off all over the Weser bombarding the west bank leaving the defenders momentarily stunned. Moments later the first wave of armour crossed over what every intact bridge they could find with T-34's sometimes driving right through the river.

The Anglo-Americans had been warned by Franco and some defensive measures had been taken taken however the size, ferocity and timing of the attack caught the defenders by suprise and soon the Soviets had cleared the west bank. Quickly further pontoon bridges were set up as the vast columns of Soviet armour rattled over the shaky upholdings.

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/AAMT001010.jpg?size=67&uid=DEDFD993-DE8F-41FE-B85A-3151FC2E05B0

The Spanish were prepared for the Soviet attack however they had expected it to take place in the summer and for the Western allies to be stronger than they were. Thus as the anglo americans fell back in disarray at the vast columns of Soviet armour Francos flank became increasingly exposed and with the Germans still unprepared he was also forced to retreat albeit at a slower pace.

Within days Oldenburg had been captured and after only a week Soviet troops were moving into the badly exposed Netherlands. The Shermans and Matildas of the allies were no match for the T-34's and were also outnumbered by the iconic tank. The only place in Germany in the first fortnight of the campaign were the Soviets met their match was when German crews driving their rearmed Panzer IV's and Tigers into battle however they were too few to ever truly throw the Soviets back and any armour victories for the allies were local.

For nearly 2 days the allies had complete superiority and used this to their advantage keeping the allies from being able to repel the Red Army for the large part. As the days went on the allies managed to achieve parity in the air however they could not force a Soviet halt.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-D0331-0042-012%2C_Russische_Flugzeuge_%C3%BCber_Berlin-Lankwitz.jpg
Il-2's over Antwerp

By mid-March, Essen and Rotterdam had fallen and the Spanish had been pushed against the Rhine as the Anglo-Americans retreated into Belgium. Zhukov knew he could not sucessfully cross the Rhine without significant resources and planning commited to it and thus decided to focus on the low countries in the hope of reaching the channel then swinging east entrapping the Allies in Alsace.

2 Soviet divisions also drove north into Denmark, although the Danish government had been more or less independent since the Germans left their military capabilities remained poor and although they fought valianty they were outnumbered and outclassd and by the end of March they had capitulated. Belgium seemed sure to follow as by early April the Soviets also took Antwerp.

The Allied governments had worried about this eventuality but they were still shocked when the attack had actually come the idea of going back to war and the horrific casualites the Allies had already taken led to British morale plummeting, the American divisions being raised to go to the Pacific were quicjly marked for Europe and it was decided that the Pacific theater would have to take even more serious cutbacks.

As the Soviets grew ever nearer to the Channel it was now up to the retreating Anglo-Americans to avoid being knocked out of Europe all together...

http://www.posterart.com/ourposters/images/russian.jpg

[BlairWitch749]

Help us Caudillo you're our only hope (Chapter 19)
Franco's tactical HQ West Bank of the Rhine March 1943

Franco was faced a huge set of problems. His foresight and careful preparations had seen his 4 mobile corps in much better positions than his allies to the north. However the Soviet numbers were impossible to contain and Franco's left flank was constantly in the air because the allies were falling back fast before the might of the Soviet T-34's. He had withdrawn his forces in good order to the west bank of the Rhine where the terrain and the river screened his forces from immediate encirclement.

Franco had pulled one ace up his sleeve when the fighting started. He had arranged with Field Marshal Rommel to demobilize the German divisions in such a way that all the manpower being left in the German army was funneled into 7 full strength divisions. Braving the interallied commission Franco allowed equipment and ammunition that had been captured when his army overran the French countryside to be given to the Germans in effect giving them 5 motorized infantry divisions and 2 panzer divisions that had a pretty good compliment of equipment.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f68/Taswir/CondorLegion2.jpg
In the best history of the Condor legion Franco made use of the tiny remnants of the German army

Winston Churchill, whose armies were rapidly being forced into a repeat of the horrible evacuation of Dunkirk sent urgent request to Franco, asking for him to attack in the flanks of the tank armies that were destroying the Americans and the British "Help us Caudillo you're our only hope"

Franco with the help of Rommel marshaled his 4 corps and 2 German corps for an attack into the flank of the 3rd Guards tank army. Franco hoped to slice through them and into the Ardennes relieving pressure on the Anglo-Americans so that they could funnel additional reinforcements. The Caudillo hoped that his screening forces on the Rhine would be able to hold fast whilst he took the best of the western armies into battle.

http://www.nndb.com/people/425/000041302/franco.jpg
Franco became the west's last hope of stopping the Soviets from driving to the sea.

His American equipped motorized corps made up the wings and the experienced German Corps in the center went over to the attack on March 29th 1943. The Germans made excellent progress with their MK 4 and Tiger I tanks surging into the Russian lines and knocking out tanks and pill boxes. Soviet fighter bombers tried to intervene but were countered by scores of recommissioned Luftwaffe fighters and Spanish ME-109's which where able to hold parity over the battlefield. Heinz Guderian the former German minister of the economy, led one of the German corps of 3 motorized visions and 1 panzer division. He made up to 35 kilometers an hour destroying all recognized targets and inflicting heavy casualties. After 4 hours of fighting he had knocked out 113 Russian tanks at a loss of 20 of his own and had overrun and captured a few thousand prisoners. The Spanish on the flanks lacked the necessary punch in their armored vehicles and were struggling to keep up with the panzergrenadiers.

http://czar94.cafe24.com/Special/Gallery/images/gud_99.jpg
Guderian led what was hoped to be a second Miracle of the Marne

Zhukov received the frantic reports from his 3rd Guards Tank Army that the facists had broken into their front and were threatening the flanks of the northern front. He then played Stalin's masterstroke. All over Spain and embattled France the hard left socialists and communists went on strike and more than a few started brutal 5th column gorilla war behind the lines. Guderian and Rommel found that they couldn't resupply their spearheads because communists were savaging their columns and attacking fuel trucks. With the Spanish and the Germans now embroiled in a fight for their supply lines, the 3rd Guards tank army caught its breath and counter attacked driving them back.

Zhukov then unleashed a daring parachute drop 30 kilometers behind the Rhine and simultaneously launched a river crossing with his 5th Shock Army and an attached tank corps. Zhukov lined his artillery pieces wheel to wheel and caught Franco out of position and surged over the Rhine crushing Franco's right flank and linking up with his 15 thousand paratroopers who had caused intense confusion behind the lines for only modest losses. The T-34's using roads well marked for them by friendly communists surged around the 6 corps of Spanish and Germans and quickly formed an iron pincer at Dijon effectively turning south eastern France into a giant cauldron which the Russians had plenty of experience in knowing how to crush.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/the-battle-of-the-bulge-timeline-3.jpg
Soviet Shock Soldiers on the offensive against the fascists

Zhukov sent specially trained infantry battalions well equipped with explosive charges and grenades backed by KV-1's and light artillery mortars to reduce the pocket. They lost heavily to recommissioned 88mm guns but succeeded in reducing the pocket to an ever shrinking perimeter of death. Guderian and Rommel's HQ were overrun and they killed themselves prior to any possible capture by veteran Red Army Infantry. 5th Column activity made it impossible for Franco's troops to evacuate or break the cauldron
http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/Graphics/partisana.jpg
Some of the work that pinned the Germans and Spanish to the pocket.

Franco's army surrendered on April 6th 1943 although the Caudillo himself was able to fly out of the pocket at the last possible second. Zhukov had delayed his mortal offensive against the Anglo Americans to crush Franco on the Vozd's orders but now with his left flank relatively clear Zhukov had scores to settle with the Bourgoise

to be continued...

your thoughts?

[Cylon_Number_14]

No celebrated retirement for Rommel! :( And what you did to those atomic scientists was totally unexpected and horrifying! :eek: I don't think this WW2 is going to end in 1945...

[BlairWitch749]

No celebrated retirement for Rommel! :( And what you did to those atomic scientists was totally unexpected and horrifying! :eek: I don't think this WW2 is going to end in 1945...

Yea all the usual German linchpins didn't make it... just because of a failure before Moscow

[LittleSpeer]

Guderian and Rommel's HQ were overrun and they killed themselves prior to any possible capture by veteran Red Army Infantry.
you just ruined all of this

[Whumbly]

I'm sorry but I must agree with LS. I personally wanted to see Patton and Rommel take on the Soviet Horde in the South of Britian.

[FletcherofSaltoun]

Disregard them BW and the Red! Unless totally centred on, one or two personalities do not dominate a timeline, and even then if the story is right it can be justified bumping them off. Killing them off is more realistic. German Field Marshals do not surrender..........

[Astrodragon]

Disregard them BW and the Red! Unless totally centred on, one or two personalities do not dominate a timeline, and even then if the story is right it can be justified bumping them off. Killing them off is more realistic. German Field Marshals do not surrender..........

*ahem* Stalingrad *ahem* :p:p

[BlairWitch749]

*ahem* Stalingrad *ahem* :p:p

Paulus didn't have a baton yet and was still wearing a GeneralOberst's uniform.... he was Field Marshal in name only

[BlairWitch749]

Disregard them BW and the Red! Unless totally centred on, one or two personalities do not dominate a timeline, and even then if the story is right it can be justified bumping them off. Killing them off is more realistic. German Field Marshals do not surrender..........

We have had several characters be linchpins for a chapter or two, (Leeb, Guderian, Rommel, Franco... the only major baseline characters left are Zhukov and Stalin)

[The Red]

He went forth conquering, and to conquer (Chapter 20)

http://shadowwar.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/stalin.jpg

It is now the imperative of the oppressed workers around the world that the Fascist-Imperialist alliance be driven from France as they have for Eastern Europe, Germany, the Low Countries and Denmark. Here we have found the grim realities of their occupation, the prostitutised women, the murdered Jews and the oppressed masses. We cannot allow this to go on any longer, we shall fight until the remnants of this treacherous alliance have been wiped from the continent and only then shall Europe be free from their evil!
Joseph Stalins speech to STAVKA on April 10th, 1943

By Mid-April the trapped German and Spanish divisions in Eastern France had been smashed and now Zhukov could once more turn his forces west to push the Anglo-Americans out of Europe altogether. The allied situation was desperate, Franco had fled behind the Pyrenees and any Spanish forces raised in the near future would need to be used to hold the Spanish border, let alone fight northwards once again. Spain, for the moment, was out of the war.

The Allies could only count on 20 battered divisions with which to hold northern France of which only 3 were armoured. The Soviets only the other hand could count on at least 6 full strength armies of which 2 were tank armies. It was clear that they could not hold against such a force, not only were they were outnumbered and outclassed on the ground but the French communists who had welcomed and fought alongside them were now treating them like the Jerries. De Gualles methods of crushing this fifth column had been effective however it had only served to radicalise the remnants of the French far left and transportation and supply was being constantly hampered by go-slows and sabotaged docks and equipment.

It wasn't exactly better over the Channel. The British communists had switched back to calling for peace with the radicals doing their best to sabotage the home front. The IRA also continued to cause trouble in Ulster, attempting to disrupt supplies and on March 24th blowing up a munitions factory in Omaugh. Chruchills crackdown on not only the communists but also in many cases the nationalist Catholic communities led to public outcry, the Soviets seemed a lot less evil enemy and many ordinary British people could see their side of the argument, after all weren't the Spanish and Germans meant to be our enemies?

In America things generally remained more peaceful, however various peace marches by communist groups were often broken up and mainstream stars like Woodie Guthrie underwent severe questioning.

Throughout April Zhukov pushed the allies north. Soviet and allied armour clashed throughout the French countryside as the Soviets advanced relentessly against the inferior Allied forces. However allied air power began to show as the Soviets began to lose more and more equipment and men to air attacks. As Soviet pincers closed around Paris, De Gualle refused to abandon the city and with his newly assembled French division which had come together after Sledgehammer, he rallied the cities populace to fight against the Soviets. However with a lack of armour and communists still inside the city resistance in the city mainly relied on the fanaticism of it's defenders. The Soviets had not expected a stand to be made in the city and were taken by suprise initially. Troops were redrawn from the front to secure the city and the full might of the Red Air force came down on the city. By the 1st of May Paris was a wreck and De Gualle had died by his own hand. The fall of Paris sent shockwaves around the world similar to it's fall in 1940. The capture of Cherbourg 2 days after was even more dramatic. The Soviets had reached the West coast of Europe and the allies were pinned.

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/7114/abravecuf8.png
Allied troops in the ruins of Paris

It became clear to allied planners that France would fall by the end of summer if the Soviet onslaught kept up and that they only had one option - to try and save as many troops as possible before the Soviets reached the channel.

Immediately a hurried plan was drawn up, it was essentially an extension of the original Dunkirk evacuation with allied ships evacuating as many troops as possible with a 6 division rearguard holding the Soviets. The allies had several advantages over the original Dunkirk evacuation, they had a wider area, streching from roughly Calais to Normandy and could expect at least parity in the air. They also had the full cooperation of the US navy this time. Although, unlike the Germans, the Red Army would not stall. In the first days Calais was repeatedly carpet bombed by Soviet bombers.

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/NA004382.jpg?size=67&uid=A064AF5E-A320-40C0-98E7-CE342CD78845
Canadian and Norwegian convoy vessels steam towards a burning Calais

As the Soviets pushed forward with Zhukov salivating at a final crushing victory to conclude his glorious campaign the allied stood fanatically against what seemed to be endless amounts of men and material. American, British and Canadian tank commanders dueled with their Soviet counterparts as troops from both sides engaged each other, sometimes in brutal hand to hand combat. The allied air force manged to come out on top buying their comrades several more days to continue the hurried evacuation.Dozens of allied ships flocked in to evacuate the beleagured allied troops from docks and sometimes beaches. Troops pushed and shoved to get aboard, terrified of the horror stories about labour camps in Siberia. Anything that could not be carried, sometimes including wounded soldiers, was left behind.

The end result had never been in doubt and although the allies fought valiantly, heroism is often not enough, the Soviets finally reached Calais on May the 21st with over 150,000 allied soldiers evacuated to Britain where an uncertain future awaited them...

http://www.508pir.org/images/combat/combs_sherman_tank_02.jpg
An abandoned Sherman lies on a Normandy beach

[marcus_aurelius]

AWESOME!!! It's 1940 all over again...

By the way, will the Americans come back and help the British, or will they focus more on the Pacific? Will Stalin try something like Sealion? And I know it's not very relevant, but how's Japan doing ITTL?

Marc A

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

This is nize, very nize, I liek!


So, the soviet-union have gained Germany and may soon gain much of Metropolitan France and Italy, a substantial advantage compensing for the destructions of 41-42.
There is still the matter of Spain, I am inclined to believe the soviets would invade Spain too but then again I am not the one writing this timeline.

How would the Japanes/Pacific front evolve? The Japanes could do with some Sovietic technical/scientifical asssistance and in turn could assist sovietic chemical/biological warfare, some warships.

[Whumbly]

I beleive that the Japanese would actually side with the allies in the war. Considering that Japan is a monarchy and has just seen the USSR betray its so called allies I think that it quite plausable. I can see it actually noigate in a postion of strength as Japan has quite a large chunk of the Pacific.

To convice the Americans to ally with Japan will probaly take an assassination successful or not of the Vice President as FDR's VPs tended to be anti-communist it is plauseable as the USSR will want to keep the USA out of the war.

[Peter]

Yes, Japan changing sides with US pacific forces being shifted to China would be cool.

[FletcherofSaltoun]

I'm sorry but this is completely idiotic. The fact remains that the Russians were no where near ready to face the German Warmachine after Operation Barbossa and I honestly believe that if the Germans had tried to take Moscow, instead of foolishly laying siege to the city, they would have completely taken Moscow and the surrender of Russian Forces would soon follow.
I'm sorry but Alan Clark, who as much as I disliked his politics, has, I suspect, researched the subject in far greater depth than yourself was of the opinion that should the Germans had gone for Moscow then they would have not only been outflanked by the Russians but would have been destroyed in the centre.

Is someone who wrote a few books on the eastern war in detail more daft than you on the subject?

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

and I honestly believe that if the Germans had tried to take Moscow, instead of foolishly laying siege to the city, they would have completely taken Moscow and the surrender of Russian Forces would soon follow.

http://www.dembot.net/images/facepalm/double_trek_facepalm.jpg

[FletcherofSaltoun]

http://www.dembot.net/images/facepalm/double_trek_facepalm.jpg
Probably the reaction I should have given!:D

[BlairWitch749]

Austin,

By the end of operation Typhoon the German panzer divisions were well below 25% strength in tanks and their infantry regiments were being frozen in place by the brutality of the Russian winter. Moscow is a huge city... bigger than Stalingrad with huge concrete buildings that won't be destroyed by air strikes or light artillery. The Germans by the winter of 1941 had no fresh infantry reserves nor enough heavy artillery to do more than break into small parts of the city even if they reached it.

The only reason the Germans were able to not be completely overrun in the winter of 1941 was because of the strength of the Oka river line which was built up by army group center whilst they were waiting for Guderian's 2nd Panzer Army to finish its mission in the Ukraine. All forces in front of the Oka line after Typhoon were either pushed back to the line, forced to surrender or destroyed by Zhukov's great winter counter attack (otl)

Red and I have had the Germans pour 9 divisions across the Moscow-Volga Canal and had Zhukov attack on the wings instead of right up the middle which bypassed the Oka line and put an exausted and overextended Army Group Center in a huge cauldron... this was highly probable with only the slight pod of Leeb forgoing his last ditch attack at Leningrad

[Augustus Montes]

I would like to apologize to Red and BlairWitch. Should have realized you guys probably know a lot more than I did on the specifics of the war. Please forgive me for acting like an idiot

[CCA]

I like!

Looking forward to this TL's version of Sealion.

[BlairWitch749]

You are Russia's favorite son (Chapter 21)

Western Europe April 1943

Zhukov's unstoppable armored columns had run the allies out to sea and forced a humiliating repeat of the Dunkirk evacuation from three years before. His forces had been stung by allied airpower and from strikes from the warships but pyraich victories didn't bother Zhukov especially since he treated infantry as mere digits. He now only faced the disorganized remains of a few free french divisions between himself and the Pyranees. Allied bombers were proving quite a nuisance as they operated well over 20,000 feet at which Soviet fighters were not particularly effective. However Zhukov hoped he could achieve his remaining objectives before they could truly make their presence felt and the Vozd had a plan to disrupt the airfields in Britain anyway.

http://www.hambletonshow.co.uk/mediac/400_0/media/zhukov_300.jpg
Russia's favorite son and the author of her Victories Marshal Zhukov

Stalin had been secretly supplying weapons and intelligence to the Irish Republican Army for months with elaborate promises of support and liberation of their northern provinces after the war. Whilst Zhukov reorganized his tank armies for a decisive strike down the Rhone valley Stalin unleashed terror on the British homeland. RAF and American airfields all over the southern part of the country found themselves being bombed and mortared whenever darkness came. Security sweeps following these attacks were only partially effective as the cell structure of the IRA made it hard to break up their task forces. Hundreds of sorties were lost as bombers were destroyed or damaged or runways disabled or critical personel murdered. Churchill ordered draconian Marshal law against the Irish bombers which they were able to circumvent easily and this also caused severe political friction throughout the country fatally weakening Churchill's hold on power.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01499/brighton-bomb_1499688c.jpg
An RAF barracks stuck by mortars of the IRA

At the same time Stalin benefitted from a stroke of luck (the pun not being lost on Stalin or the STAVKA) as the longtime American President Franklin Roosevelt strained by the renewed fighting and failure suffered a stroke and died on April 12th 1943. His successor, Henry Wallace was a man who had been friendly to the Soviet Union. The speaches Wallace gave right after his inauguration were music to his ears.

America has made a terrible mistake. We allied ourselves to the fascists of Spain and Germany... the very evil we hoped to destroy... why wouldn't uncle Joe push us all out then if we were cooperating with the countries directly responsible for millions of deaths of his citizens. I say to you good honest working Americans that the Soviet Union isn't our enemy... we have but one on the islands of Japan who so brutally attacked our fleet two years ago. My intention is to open up peace talks with uncle Joe so that we may turn the full might of our war effort against the basterdly empire of Japan.

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/henry-a-wallace-0909-lg-11146375.jpg
President Wallace reached out to Stalin for peace.

Stalin was overjoyed as this new president was basically offering him a blank check to conquer all of Europe and smash his most immediate enemies. Wallace appointed a large number of progressives (hard left socialists and even outright communists including Alger Hiss) to his cabinet and important posts. Representatives from both sides met in Seattle Washington and a de facto peace treat was announced that Stalin would no longer attack forces of the United States and he would remain neutral in their battle with Japan. Stalin was forced to scrap plans he had to offer the Japanese 3 Russian tank corps to attack into Burma for this was a far better strategic outcome to have America focus its attentions elsewhere.

http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/9009/wm/pd2129641.jpg
Stalin was overjoyed with America's new socialist leaning president's peace offer

The entire might of the American war effort including all personel assigned to England was sent against the empire of Japan. Wallace broke the power of the officer corps by forming soldier and sailors councils which on top of his far too friendly relationship with Stalin made a number of long term democrats break from him and splintered the party into progressives and democrats. The mass of the American Navy quickly turned every Japanese island possession into an isolated outpost and mass carrier raids inflicted grievous losses on the Japanese fleet and home islands.

Churchill's government after 4 years of war also fell apart particular the alliance with Spain and the use of Nazi troops had become extremely controversial. Clement Atlee took over a splintering coalition to which the Americans it seemed wanted no part and he too accepted a rather simple peace with Stalin where he agreed to respect the British empire's territorial integrity (minus Northern Ireland) and would stay neutral in their quarrel with Japan. This did however grant him a free hand to mold the continent in the image he and Lenin had dreamed of.

http://eventsdearboyevents.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/clement_attlee.jpg
Attlee had no choice but accept a Soviet dominated Europe

Whilst Zhukov's forces completed their total occupation of France, Stalin directed new and immaginative warplans be developed to crush the fascists in Spain and Italy. He also had built up two tank armies in Manchuria that had some other scores to settle

to be continued...

your thoughts?

[Astrodragon]

Oh dear...Britsih air power defeated by the might of the IRA....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The IRA was (and has always been) a singularly unsuccessful operation, mainly because its always been infiltrated by the Britis security services. I suppose a few attacks might work, after which Britain will clamp down (and, if considered necessary, lean heavily on the irish govenment as well).

Draconian action against the IRA will have plentiful support in the UK, where people dont LIKE the IRA....the idea it will weaken Churchill is ASB.

Is the IRA riding tame sealions as well? :p

[BlairWitch749]

Oh dear...Britsih air power defeated by the might of the IRA....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The IRA was (and has always been) a singularly unsuccessful operation, mainly because its always been infiltrated by the Britis security services. I suppose a few attacks might work, after which Britain will clamp down (and, if considered necessary, lean heavily on the irish govenment as well).

Draconian action against the IRA will have plentiful support in the UK, where people dont LIKE the IRA....the idea it will weaken Churchill is ASB.

Is the IRA riding tame sealions as well? :p

This is an IRA built on a communist cell structure well supported by a major industrial power. These were hit and run/ fade missions against the airfields. shoot and scoot would have been effective enough in small numbers... those airfields were quite congested a few mortar rounds could do untold mischief

Churchill had untold enemies amongst the socialsts and harder left liberals. He was a notorious strike breaker and had sided with Franco and said rather pleasant things about Mussolini before the war. Think of this as the culmination

[The Red]

Oh dear...Britsih air power defeated by the might of the IRA....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

If you think that the RAF is composed of a few airfields then yes they did.

We arent trying to say they busted the RAF, these raids were a pinprick however the potential propaganda value is massive.

[LordIreland]

A very interesting timeline. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing where you go with it.

Only one minor quible, you stated that the USSR was churning out 2000 T34s a month in early 42. When in OTL, with lendlease in full flow, Soviet production peaked at 900 a month. That being said, given the huge strategic encirclement and subsequent destruction of Army Group Centre, I am not convinced that the outcome would have changed significantly.

[BlairWitch749]

A very interesting timeline. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing where you go with it.

Only one minor quible, you stated that the USSR was churning out 2000 T34s a month in early 42. When in OTL, with lendlease in full flow, Soviet production peaked at 900 a month. That being said, given the huge strategic encirclement and subsequent destruction of Army Group Centre, I am not convinced that the outcome would have changed significantly.


this is with the donets basin and the ukraine recaptured much much earlier (significantly improving production capability) and little diversion to the KV chassis type forgive me for not being descriptive enough originally, but that is how the numbers came to be

[chris N]

Let me say that I totally disagree with your having a President Wallace. the Only way that this would happen is if FDR died in office. Wallace was not liked by a lot of the democrat party officals. Should he come to office there could be a major revolt by not only conservative southern Democrats but even democrats from the North. I would have expected Alfred E Smith to lead the democrat move against Wallace. You could very well see the Senate refusing to approve any of his appointees. There would also be a strong negative reaction in the country to the Russian attack on the western allies. It could see a Republican Landslide in the Congressional elections or at the least a conservative majority in the Senate.

In the UK I am not at all sure that Atlee would be able to make a peace with the Soviets as many would consider it a selling out of the people that had ought with Britain- French, Dutch, Belgian, Poles, and Czechs.

There were also a lot more than 12 allied divisions available in western Europe in 1942. The US alone had built up a force in the UK of 6-12 divisions and then there were the Canadians and British divisions. Thus it is probable that the Western allies would have had at least 24+ divisions to which would be added the 12 Spanish divisions and the Rearmed French Divisions from Norht Africa. The US automobile industry would have been cranking out tanks and other vehicles like crazy. Thus we might have seen the allies have had as many as 50 divisions in Western Europe, Remember the British would not have the manpower crisis until 1944.

Churchill could very well have won the election. The allies would have also had a fairly large air force in the West and this could have inflicted heavy damage to the Russian Army and Air Force.

[BlairWitch749]

Let me say that I totally disagree with your having a President Wallace. the Only way that this would happen is if FDR died in office. Wallace was not liked by a lot of the democrat party officals. Should he come to office there could be a major revolt by not only conservative southern Democrats but even democrats from the North. I would have expected Alfred E Smith to lead the democrat move against Wallace. You could very well see the Senate refusing to approve any of his appointees. There would also be a strong negative reaction in the country to the Russian attack on the western allies. It could see a Republican Landslide in the Congressional elections or at the least a conservative majority in the Senate.

In the UK I am not at all sure that Atlee would be able to make a peace with the Soviets as many would consider it a selling out of the people that had ought with Britain- French, Dutch, Belgian, Poles, and Czechs.

There were also a lot more than 12 allied divisions available in western Europe in 1942. The US alone had built up a force in the UK of 6-12 divisions and then there were the Canadians and British divisions. Thus it is probable that the Western allies would have had at least 24+ divisions to which would be added the 12 Spanish divisions and the Rearmed French Divisions from Norht Africa. The US automobile industry would have been cranking out tanks and other vehicles like crazy. Thus we might have seen the allies have had as many as 50 divisions in Western Europe, Remember the British would not have the manpower crisis until 1944.

Churchill could very well have won the election. The allies would have also had a fairly large air force in the West and this could have inflicted heavy damage to the Russian Army and Air Force.


Wallace succeeded Roosevelt who died from a stroke so he didn;t have to face a general election. Keep in mind the British still had forces tied up in north africa and in the pacific. some of those american and british divisions in place in 1942 were territorials or national guard units with little training and combat experience. the sherman also didn't start getting produced in any significant quantities till the end of 1942 and it didn't hit its stride in production till 1944.

The airforce is successful to a degree but again it didn't have anywhere near its 1944 level of effectiveness and area bombing in france against the russians kills friendly civilians

[Whumbly]

I can see some of the more anti-communist Americans lanching a polictial coup or military (whichever one you prefer)

I think that Italy and Spain will try and raise blue corps or volunteers from other countries (UK, America, France and other neutral countries) to fight aganist the Soviet Red Army on the idea of Anti-Communist not Pro-Factism.

I think that Japan might be willing for a nogatited peace with the Americans in exchange for Japanese Troops aiding China against Mao's Communist Party with I think will have recived Soviet aid by now.

Also what is the State of the Free French Forces in it's terriorty in Africa?

[chris N]

It would seem that it would be very likely that the Conservative and moderate democrats in the House of Representatives joined by the Republican would introduce a Bill of impeachment and pass it. It would then go to the Senate where it is highly likely that Wallace would be convicted and removed from office. The Speaker of the House would then become President.
The attack by the Soviets would cause a Red Scale to rival that of the 1920's and a lot of people like Alger Hiss would be removed from government and tried fro treason.

I have little doubt that what you said regarding the production of the Sherman tank is correct but once the Soviets launched their attack on the West everything would change. Ny this I mean there would be a demand to speed up production. There were US divisions that had arrived in early 1942 that would have been constantly training and the British forces were still expanding in 1942 including a Canadian Corp.

Air power would be the Key with the vast Bomber force and the arrival of American P-38 and the P-51 would also be arriving in limited numbers.

If anything the attack by the Soviets might very well rally the people around Churchill and discredit the Labor party, especially its left wing.

[chris N]

Regarding the German army I have some doubts aout your crushing of it so easily. The Germans had an edge over the Russians in that all of their tanks were equipped with radios. They also had the ability to improvise much more than did the Soviets forming into battle groups.

The 75mm pak at gun would have appeared much sooner and would have caused great loses to the Russian tank force. Remember even in OTL the majority of Russian tank production was NOT the T-34 but the lighter BT-7, T-60 and T-70 and it is likely that that would be the case here too.

The Germans did have defenses in the east to fall back into. The OST wall esisted on both eastern Germany and Prussia. Hitler had restored fortifications in the East when he first came to power. This would have bought the Germans time. Time to bring the 88mmpak ATG and the Tiger 1. It might have also seen the appearance of the Skoda T-26 medium tank, which would have been a match for the T-34.

[David Floyd]

Here's my problem (and, BTW, great TL up to this point):

Why would the US, even with Wallace in office, offer peace to the Soviet Union, after the Soviets basically "sneak attacked" them, killing far more US military personnel than the Pearl Harbor attack? Given the US response and attitude towards Japan after the Pearl Harbor sneak attack, why would this be different?

Oh, I agree that Wallace would have wanted to - the man was the closest thing to a communist that we've ever had as a POTUS/VEEP. However, the country wouldn't have let him, IMHO, simply seek peace with Stalin, any more than the country would have let FDR actively seek war with Germany prior to Pearl Harbor. I can easily see Wallace being impeached, following his far-left Cabinet appointments (including his Veep) not being approved by the Senate, with the result of the Speaker of the House - Sam Rayburn (D-TX)- assuming office.

[BlairWitch749]

Regarding the German army I have some doubts aout your crushing of it so easily. The Germans had an edge over the Russians in that all of their tanks were equipped with radios. They also had the ability to improvise much more than did the Soviets forming into battle groups.

The 75mm pak at gun would have appeared much sooner and would have caused great loses to the Russian tank force. Remember even in OTL the majority of Russian tank production was NOT the T-34 but the lighter BT-7, T-60 and T-70 and it is likely that that would be the case here too.

The Germans did have defenses in the east to fall back into. The OST wall esisted on both eastern Germany and Prussia. Hitler had restored fortifications in the East when he first came to power. This would have bought the Germans time. Time to bring the 88mmpak ATG and the Tiger 1. It might have also seen the appearance of the Skoda T-26 medium tank, which would have been a match for the T-34.

Germany in otl even with the donets basin and the ukraine resources was only able to produce 900 upgunned panzer mark 4's in 1942. their war economy just didnt kick in till 43 when speer took over so with the destruction of army group center its quite likely they would have less than 500 new tanks to put into battle which i have laid out

[BlairWitch749]

Here's my problem (and, BTW, great TL up to this point):

Why would the US, even with Wallace in office, offer peace to the Soviet Union, after the Soviets basically "sneak attacked" them, killing far more US military personnel than the Pearl Harbor attack? Given the US response and attitude towards Japan after the Pearl Harbor sneak attack, why would this be different?

Oh, I agree that Wallace would have wanted to - the man was the closest thing to a communist that we've ever had as a POTUS/VEEP. However, the country wouldn't have let him, IMHO, simply seek peace with Stalin, any more than the country would have let FDR actively seek war with Germany prior to Pearl Harbor. I can easily see Wallace being impeached, following his far-left Cabinet appointments (including his Veep) not being approved by the Senate, with the result of the Speaker of the House - Sam Rayburn (D-TX)- assuming office.

as much as there was anger at the russians for pushing them out of the continent they were in effect stuck with a fait complit because relaunching dday against the might of the red army is a non starter and the british manpower situation is growing critical... peace made sense for all involved. wallace split the dems and is making a lot of enemies... i don't know if he will survive till election 44

[David Floyd]

as much as there was anger at the russians for pushing them out of the continent they were in effect stuck with a fait complit because relaunching dday against the might of the red army is a non starter and the british manpower situation is growing critical... peace made sense for all involved. wallace split the dems and is making a lot of enemies... i don't know if he will survive till election 44

No one is talking about immediately relaunching D-Day. I mean, the American public didn't expect to invade Japan by 3/42, right? This is about the US being sneak attacked. That's my take, anyway. Your TL, though ;)

[BlairWitch749]

No one is talking about immediately relaunching D-Day. I mean, the American public didn't expect to invade Japan by 3/42, right? This is about the US being sneak attacked. That's my take, anyway. Your TL, though ;)

they would literally need an army of at 150 divisions to land successfully and retake europe and it would involve MILLIONS of casualties. without the advantage of the atomic bomb it would be a complete bloodbath better skipped

[David Floyd]

This is about what the American public knew, and more importantly, thought. Additionally, by this argument the Brits should have thrown in the towel after Dunkirk.

Not trying to be argumentative because it's a fantastic TL, I just have an issue with Henry Wallace offering peace to the Soviets after the Soviets sneak attack Western Europe, including the US Army. I mean, he'd get freakin' shot, right?

[BlairWitch749]

This is about what the American public knew, and more importantly, thought. Additionally, by this argument the Brits should have thrown in the towel after Dunkirk.

Not trying to be argumentative because it's a fantastic TL, I just have an issue with Henry Wallace offering peace to the Soviets after the Soviets sneak attack Western Europe, including the US Army. I mean, he'd get freakin' shot, right?

Well you saw the speach of his in the last chapter... I think the alliance with Spain and utilizing Nazi troops muddied the waters a little bit. His presidency might be extremely short lived but collassal war with the Soviets isn't such a great idea either. The americans by doing Dunkirk 2.0 were able to evacuate most of their forces without unbelievable losses... the average man on the street would want to settle a score with stalin but would they sacrifice 2 million sons for it?

[David Floyd]

I think they would, to be honest with you. I guess it would depend on the government propaganda.

I certainly don't think Congress would go for an ultra-left Wallace. I really think he would not be able to get Veep/Cabinet appointments through, and I think impeachment would be reasonable. Sam Rayburn was a tough motherfucker, and would almost certainly have continued the war.

[BlairWitch749]

I think they would, to be honest with you. I guess it would depend on the government propaganda.

I certainly don't think Congress would go for an ultra-left Wallace. I really think he would not be able to get Veep/Cabinet appointments through, and I think impeachment would be reasonable. Sam Rayburn was a tough motherfucker, and would almost certainly have continued the war.

Not impossible that the more centerist dems and the repubs might boot his ass for being a traitor but its quite likely than an exploration of politics past 1944 might be outside the scope of this tl

[David Floyd]

Fair enough. The only other point I'd make is simply one that goes back to the American public's view of a sneak attack, a la Pearl Harbor. If the Japanese don't get away with it, why do the Soviets?

[BlairWitch749]

Fair enough. The only other point I'd make is simply one that goes back to the American public's view of a sneak attack, a la Pearl Harbor. If the Japanese don't get away with it, why do the Soviets?

because unlike pearl harbor... the russian storm offensive drastically altered the strategic situation in europe to the point that a major american effort doesn't garauntee victory and in fact is rather likely to at best be a bloody stalemate that stalin has much more will to go through than the americans or the british

[David Floyd]

I would argue that the Japanese will was at least equal to or greater than the Soviet will to war, and in fact, the strategic situation was irrelevant. Let's say that Pearl Harbor took out not only the BBs, but also every CV, the base of Pearl Harbor itself, and resulted in an occupation of Hawaii. The US still wouldn't have accepted peace.

[BlairWitch749]

I would argue that the Japanese will was at least equal to or greater than the Soviet will to war, and in fact, the strategic situation was irrelevant. Let's say that Pearl Harbor took out not only the BBs, but also every CV, the base of Pearl Harbor itself, and resulted in an occupation of Hawaii. The US still wouldn't have accepted peace.

Even given that. You are talking about at best a C+ industrial power against an A industrial power in the United States. To defeat the Japanese Navy even after a more horrific defeat at pearl harbor wasn't only possible it was highly likely as the americans could create an immense and unstoppable naval fleet. Despite Japanese fanatacism the americans didn't engage more than 15 Japanese divisions with all their island hopping campaigns... so their numerical superiority was theoretically unlimited. Japan was a second rate opponent who never had a glimmer of a prayer of strategic victory

The situation against the Soviet Union is completely different. They would be going against an opponent of at least equal industrial capabilities with a massive 200 + division army of highly skilled veterans equipped with the most advanced armored vehicles in the world shielded by the channel and whatever version of the atlantic wall and fortified french river lines stalin happens to want to employ. To attempt a meeting battle with the red army is to ask for WW1 on steroids, one would expect the logic that went to all costs to prevent operation downfall due the potential losses would still be at work in this scenario

[David Floyd]

Even given that. You are talking about at best a C+ industrial power against an A industrial power in the United States. To defeat the Japanese Navy even after a more horrific defeat at pearl harbor wasn't only possible it was highly likely as the americans could create an immense and unstoppable naval fleet. Despite Japanese fanatacism the americans didn't engage more than 15 Japanese divisions with all their island hopping campaigns... so their numerical superiority was theoretically unlimited. Japan was a second rate opponent who never had a glimmer of a prayer of strategic victory

Then again, the US didn't engage more than 15 US divisions against Japan (I could look up the exact numbers, but you see my point).

Additionally, the Soviet Union was, if not a C industrial power, then certainly a B- industrial power absent Western Lend Lease (avgas, trucks, etc., not to mention food, uniforms, locomotives, and other logistical equipment). The fact is, the United States essentially outproduced the rest of the world combined during WW2. Add to that British and Canadian production, and you have an industrial juggernaught.

The US also had a couple of aces up their sleeves, in terms of world naval domination - actual and projected vis a vis both the Japanese and the Soviets - air domination WRT heavy bombers and long-range fighters, as well as the final trump of atomic weapons. The US could have "turtled up" in the UK as long as necessary, and the Soviets couldn't have done a thing about it.

The situation against the Soviet Union is completely different. They would be going against an opponent of at least equal industrial capabilities with a massive 200 + division army of highly skilled veterans equipped with the most advanced armored vehicles in the world shielded by the channel and whatever version of the atlantic wall and fortified french river lines stalin happens to want to employ. To attempt a meeting battle with the red army is to ask for WW1 on steroids, one would expect the logic that went to all costs to prevent operation downfall due the potential losses would still be at work in this scenario

Except there are several ways to engage in this situation. If you think the Germans faced partisan problems, the same would be true at least on the same level for the Sovs, especially if they tried to occupy all of Western Europe. The US/UK would have had the naval and air flexibility to attack virtually anywhere - from Scandanavia to France to Spain to the Balkans to the Ukraine. But more importantly, all the US/UK had to do was not to lose, same as the UK during the Battle of Britain. Eventually, Allied TacAir dominates the battlefield over France, while Strategic air power dismantles Soviet logistics in Western Europe - essentially, the OTL Transportation Plan. Finally, by mid-1945, the US has a nuclear monopoly, as well as unquestioned air and naval superiority, not to mention moral superority worldwide.

[Sean Mulligan]

Soldiers and Sailors councils? Your caricaturing Wallace.

Also Hiss was a New Deal Liberal not a Communist. At Yalta, Hiss argued against Stalin's proposal that all 15 of the Soviet Republics get a vote in the U.N. and was the President of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Chambers was a self confessed perjurer.

[chris N]

Based Upon what I know of American Politics of the period. Wallace would not last to see the next election. A Bill of impeachment would pass the house of Representatives in short order and the Senate would convict him fairly quickly. The Next President would be the Democrat Speaker of the House, wh would be more in line with the bulk of the party.

I do not think that there would be a negative reaction to the use of the Spanish but I also do not think that the allies in reality would pressure Spain into joining the war. As for the use of German troops well once the Red Army attacks the western allies then all bets are off.

There would also be a strong Political backlash in the US against anyone that would make any sort of a deal with Stalin. All of the Americans that had roots in Western and even Eastern Europe would demand that something be done. Peace with Stalin NOT A CHANCE!

[BlairWitch749]

Then again, the US didn't engage more than 15 US divisions against Japan (I could look up the exact numbers, but you see my point).

Additionally, the Soviet Union was, if not a C industrial power, then certainly a B- industrial power absent Western Lend Lease (avgas, trucks, etc., not to mention food, uniforms, locomotives, and other logistical equipment). The fact is, the United States essentially outproduced the rest of the world combined during WW2. Add to that British and Canadian production, and you have an industrial juggernaught.

The US also had a couple of aces up their sleeves, in terms of world naval domination - actual and projected vis a vis both the Japanese and the Soviets - air domination WRT heavy bombers and long-range fighters, as well as the final trump of atomic weapons. The US could have "turtled up" in the UK as long as necessary, and the Soviets couldn't have done a thing about it.



Except there are several ways to engage in this situation. If you think the Germans faced partisan problems, the same would be true at least on the same level for the Sovs, especially if they tried to occupy all of Western Europe. The US/UK would have had the naval and air flexibility to attack virtually anywhere - from Scandanavia to France to Spain to the Balkans to the Ukraine. But more importantly, all the US/UK had to do was not to lose, same as the UK during the Battle of Britain. Eventually, Allied TacAir dominates the battlefield over France, while Strategic air power dismantles Soviet logistics in Western Europe - essentially, the OTL Transportation Plan. Finally, by mid-1945, the US has a nuclear monopoly, as well as unquestioned air and naval superiority, not to mention moral superority worldwide.

Soviet production short falls on a ww2 calculation must look at the fact that they had a 18 month disruption for moving all their factories east of the Urals and the Germans occupied their primary industrial and agricultural areas in the Ukraine and the Donets Basin. This TL has them in possession of all their national territory much much earlier thus relieving a lot of pressure on their economy. The Soviets with their dozens of NKVD regiments and ruthless attitude were well equipped to handle partisan warfare in whatever form it might arise. The American Nuke program has been seriously derailed by Fuchs so that is out of the equation for quite some time. The Soviets can simply use their own and the thousands of captured German FLAK guns to shield their mechanized columns to a degree. Stalin doesn't have to drive any of their landings into the see par say he just needs to inflict a bloodbath

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

Well you saw the speach of his in the last chapter... I think the alliance with Spain and utilizing Nazi troops muddied the waters a little bit. His presidency might be extremely short lived but collassal war with the Soviets isn't such a great idea either. The americans by doing Dunkirk 2.0 were able to evacuate most of their forces without unbelievable losses... the average man on the street would want to settle a score with stalin but would they sacrifice 2 million sons for it?


If they want to continue the war, they would pretend to make a lasting peace to allow the evacuation of allied soldiers, liberate those caught by the Red Army, then be ready for war but would not fire a shot till the strategic situation become favourable for them.
War against a prepared red army controling continental europe would result in far more than 2 millions casualties for the USA, unless they always used the forces of every other allied country as cannon fodder.

[Splatter123]

Just got finished reading up to date on the time line and It's Awesome :D

But I will have to agree with Chris N, I don't think that America even with a suddenly pro communist president would ever try to make peace with anyone who betrayed them like Stalin did in this time line.

Also because I would like to see a mushroom cloud where the Kremlin should be :D

[BlairWitch749]

Just got finished reading up to date on the time line and It's Awesome :D

But I will have to agree with Chris N, I don't think that America even with a suddenly pro communist president would ever try to make peace with anyone who betrayed them like Stalin did in this time line.

Also because I would like to see a mushroom cloud where the Kremlin should be :D

Well as previously mentioned Fuchs destroyed a significant part of the manhattan project so the soviets might get the bomb first :eek:

Wallace would be vulnerable to being voted out or thrown out so that is accepted. The peace with the Soviet Union is accepting a hard strategic reality... America and even America and the British empire are not strong enough to conquer a soviet controlled European continent in conventional ground warfare in 1943-45 and the very attempt to do so would involve millions of deaths that the west would be less inclined to accept or want than Stalin

glad you are enjoying. ill be the first to admit there is a little zannyness and akwardness in the TL but you have to bear in mind that this is the first joint tl red and I have done and I think it has gone a lot of places from just the simple pod of having Leeb skip the last lunge at Leningrad :p

[chris N]

All I can say is that perhaps the soviets may have won the first round but the war is not over. Any agreement made by Wallace would have to be approved by the Senate. Thus there would be no peace agreement with the Soviets. Any agreement signed by them wouldn't be worth anything anyway.

Its highly unlikely that the soviets would get the bomb first as they had to steal a lot of classified documents and then it took them another 4-5 years.
Not likely that the soviets would gain all of the German flak guns as they would more than likely have been destroyed by the Germans as would the factories.

No british govt could survive if it sold out the people of occupied Europe. Remember the British Military also has Polish and Czech units as well as "Free Norwegian, Danish, Belgian and Dutch. In Italy theri is the allies and the Royal Italian Army.

The Allies have a vast superiority in air and sea power and I doubt that Franco and Degaul will roll over nor will the Swiss ( who probably have interned a lot of German Soldiers and airmen with their equipment0.

I expect that round two will take place in 1943.

[BlairWitch749]

All I can say is that perhaps the soviets may have won the first round but the war is not over. Any agreement made by Wallace would have to be approved by the Senate. Thus there would be no peace agreement with the Soviets. Any agreement signed by them wouldn't be worth anything anyway.

Its highly unlikely that the soviets would get the bomb first as they had to steal a lot of classified documents and then it took them another 4-5 years.
Not likely that the soviets would gain all of the German flak guns as they would more than likely have been destroyed by the Germans as would the factories.

No british govt could survive if it sold out the people of occupied Europe. Remember the British Military also has Polish and Czech units as well as "Free Norwegian, Danish, Belgian and Dutch. In Italy theri is the allies and the Royal Italian Army.

The Allies have a vast superiority in air and sea power and I doubt that Franco and Degaul will roll over nor will the Swiss ( who probably have interned a lot of German Soldiers and airmen with their equipment0.

I expect that round two will take place in 1943.


We don't have a peace treaty with North Korea but it has held for 50 years. The decision to send 10 million men to their deaths isn't a light one. I wholeheartedly agree there can and may be a round two perhaps between the west and the soviets but for this spring 1943 scenario there isn't much the US can do to the Soviets to change the equation without untold suffering.

They captured plenty of FLAK guns in overrunning Germany in OTL because 88's are very heavy and hard to take with you and the chaos of battle often doesn't let you destroy all material. They honestly don't need 100,000 flak guns or anything like that just enough to cover their armored columns from fighter bombers below 5,000 feet and the Soviet 85mm gun had decent enough ballistics anyway to supplement the German stocks

I think the Fuchs attack has pushed back any bomb potential to at least 1947 so it will probably remain outside the scope of the tl at least in this version

The British are stuck in the same equation as the Americans in that they can't knock the Russians out of Europe with force. France is allready overrun and the hard left is taking over and Spain and Italy are next on Stalin's victim list. Something would have to happen to disperse the strength and cohesiveness of the red army before the western allies could consider a counter attack

[chris N]

Spain will have to defend the Mountain range separating France from Spain. This would minimize the strength of the Red Army. Franco would get a lot of help from German troops and technicians that would have fled the Russian advance back in the beginning. This would mean that the Spanish Me 109 would be more advanced.

Italy would have the advantage that it would have had the time to re-equip its army with the better tanks and the 90mm At Gun. They might also get some military aid from the US and great Britain in the form of fighters and engines. Italy would probably want to grant the US base rights. It would be extremely difficult for any country to force its way through the Alps.

The Allies would use its strategic bomber force to negate soviet military strength. I would expect that the B-29 would be sped up and that the B-36 would also move forward.

I would also expect that a lot of German weapons projects would arrive in the West just as in OTL.

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

The Allies would use its strategic bomber force to negate soviet military strength. I would expect that the B-29 would be sped up and that the B-36 would also move forward.


Not significant enough in 1943. :D

Bombers would be shot down faster than they are produced, until the latter part of 1945 at the very least.
IOTL, much of the German airforce was tied to fighting in the eastern front.
In this case, red airforce doesn´t have that problem. IOTL, soviet airforce became stronger than the Luftwaffen.
In this case soviet airforce would be even stronger than IOTL, with the war into soviet territories over and the industries of Germany, Italy and France added to the war effort.

[David Floyd]

I don't know that you can simply just add the industry of occupied Western Europe to the Soviets - the Germans had tons of problems trying to exploit the Ukraine, for example.

Additionally, I don't think it would be out of order for the US/UK to maintain air superiority over the UK, North Sea, and northwestern France, with the aircraft they historically had in the 1943-1945 period (including towards the end of that period the Gloster Meteor and P-80 Shooting Star). My other question - and I don't know the answer - is whether Soviet fighters and the capability to effectively intercept the B-29 at 30,000 feet, and what their night-fighter capability looked like. That would play into their ability to disrupt strat-bombing, and while strat-bombing is not a war winner, it would certainly disrupt the Sov's ability to utilize Western industry. Additionally, a new "Transportation Plan" could be worked into the air taskings, which could make it VERY difficult to supply Soviet troops in Southern France/Spain.

I also think a butterfly of this scenario would be a greater US presence in China - Mao would be screwed. Even though Chiang Kai-Shek was a colossal waste of space, I think that the US could have pumped resources that were not going into Western Europe into China, to assist in wiping out the communists and building up the Nationalists. Granted, this would be following the defeat of Japan, however, I think that by 1945-1946, the Soviets could be in the position of having to worry about their flank all along the Chinese border to the Pacific Ocean. Certainly we wouldn't see a Korean War, as there would be no partition, and given the fact that Ho Chin Minh was essentially friendly towards the US in this time period, it would likely have been simple to turn the Vietnamese (or whatever we're calling them in the mid-late 1940s) into allies.

Bottom line? I don't buy the US/UK bowing out of the war and allowing the HUGE skew in the balance of power that would result from conceding Europe to the Soviets, and if Henry Wallace tried, it would be a toss-up as to whether he'd be impeached or assassinated first.

Just my $.02 :)

[chris N]

David I concur with what you have just stated. Wallace would not be president for very long. I presionally think that he would be impeached and convicted in short order but there is a possibility that he could be assassinated instead. It is likely that the US would ship weapons and perhaps get involved in the defense of Italy. Since Italy bugged out of the war it has had time to modernize its military and secure the defenses of northern Italy. The British and the Americans would have started the bombing of Germany and western Europe so a lot of the war industry would be no more. I also believe that the Germans would begin a scortched earth policy of destroying any war industry that could fall into Russian hands.

The British would shortly have a new strategic bomber and work on the B-29 would be sped up perhaps leading it to arriving on the screen in 1943 rather than 1945. I am not that sure that the Manhattan project would have been set back that much. Perhaps it wouldn't appear until late 1945 or early 1946.

[marcus_aurelius]

Would the Resistance movements in Occupied Europe get at least some help from MI6 and/or OSS? Or did Wallace, the good commie he is (stereotyped him there, sorry :p), tell them to F themselves?

Marc A

[chris N]

I believe that Wallace might be President for the shortist time possible and that the new President would authorize the OSS to secretly support the Resistance . I would hope that what ever government was in power in the UK would do the same. I am not convinced that the British people would vote into a power a government that would sell out everything that they had fought for since 1939. As well as to sell out the allied people who both fought for them and who have had to live under Nazi and now Soviet occupation.

[Peter]

Much of the French resistance was communist or communist controlled.

[chris N]

Not totally but we are also talking about the Resistance in Belgium, Luximbourg, Netherland, Denmark, Poland,Czechoslovakia,Greece and even in Germany where there had been a resistance movement against Hitler. There would also be movement formed in Hungary and Romania.

I also expect that the allies would be selling and giving large amount of military equipment to Turkey as it would offer the allies a large military that could check Soviet expansion into Greece and the Middle East.

[BlairWitch749]

I don't know that you can simply just add the industry of occupied Western Europe to the Soviets - the Germans had tons of problems trying to exploit the Ukraine, for example.

Additionally, I don't think it would be out of order for the US/UK to maintain air superiority over the UK, North Sea, and northwestern France, with the aircraft they historically had in the 1943-1945 period (including towards the end of that period the Gloster Meteor and P-80 Shooting Star). My other question - and I don't know the answer - is whether Soviet fighters and the capability to effectively intercept the B-29 at 30,000 feet, and what their night-fighter capability looked like. That would play into their ability to disrupt strat-bombing, and while strat-bombing is not a war winner, it would certainly disrupt the Sov's ability to utilize Western industry. Additionally, a new "Transportation Plan" could be worked into the air taskings, which could make it VERY difficult to supply Soviet troops in Southern France/Spain.

I also think a butterfly of this scenario would be a greater US presence in China - Mao would be screwed. Even though Chiang Kai-Shek was a colossal waste of space, I think that the US could have pumped resources that were not going into Western Europe into China, to assist in wiping out the communists and building up the Nationalists. Granted, this would be following the defeat of Japan, however, I think that by 1945-1946, the Soviets could be in the position of having to worry about their flank all along the Chinese border to the Pacific Ocean. Certainly we wouldn't see a Korean War, as there would be no partition, and given the fact that Ho Chin Minh was essentially friendly towards the US in this time period, it would likely have been simple to turn the Vietnamese (or whatever we're calling them in the mid-late 1940s) into allies.

Bottom line? I don't buy the US/UK bowing out of the war and allowing the HUGE skew in the balance of power that would result from conceding Europe to the Soviets, and if Henry Wallace tried, it would be a toss-up as to whether he'd be impeached or assassinated first.

Just my $.02 :)

Soviet aircraft up till at least the Yak 9 series where not effective above 20,000 feet and where not built to operate at high ceilings for their mission profile so b-17s would be decently vulnerable and the b-29 wouldn't be however one might assume the soviets would just wholesale copy the me-109 k which was effective at high altitude and available for them to exploit

most of their flak available would be effective to 25,000 feet or so. The soviets did possess the R-85 anti aircraft rocket which could have been effective against 4 engined bombers with some modification. Keep in mind that in ww2 4 engined bombing the higher you go the less accurate you are so the b-29 is not going to be good against mechanized columns it would only be good for city bombing which was never decisive in ww2

[chris N]

A lot of the factories and tooling needed to produce the Me-109K would have been destroyed during the war. I suppose that the Russians could have reversed engineered making the Me-109K but that would have taken time so the aircraft would not be available. The Allies would have also been bombing German factories and raillines.

For an army to function it needs: Food, Fuel and Munitions for its people and equipment. It the allies were able to destroy the rail connections then the soviet advance would run out of steam. Most supplies would have to come by rail . The Russians would also see the roads and bridges under attack.

The Allies would shortly have the P-51 and jet fighters that would be superior to anything that the Russians would have.

[BlairWitch749]

A lot of the factories and tooling needed to produce the Me-109K would have been destroyed during the war. I suppose that the Russians could have reversed engineered making the Me-109K but that would have taken time so the aircraft would not be available. The Allies would have also been bombing German factories and raillines.

For an army to function it needs: Food, Fuel and Munitions for its people and equipment. It the allies were able to destroy the rail connections then the soviet advance would run out of steam. Most supplies would have to come by rail . The Russians would also see the roads and bridges under attack.

The Allies would shortly have the P-51 and jet fighters that would be superior to anything that the Russians would have.

The B-29 wasn't available in numbers till late 44 so it would be 18 months before that threat really existed which would probably balance out with the time needed for the Russians to copy the ME-109k, the Yak 9 and Lagg 5 would be competitive with P-47s and B-17s. and honestly it doesn't matter if the allies have a slight technical edge in their aircraft because the russians will make up for their shortcommings with mass

quantity has a quality all its own - stalin

bridges and rail yards are specific targets which necessarily requires low altitude for precision strike... stalin just has to line his important sites with lots of light and medium flak guns and station defensive fighters as needed.

it would involve heavy losses on both sides to engage in a purely air war and it wouldnt have decisive possibilities either way

[chris N]

I have a lot of doubts regarding attacks on railroad yards. They could have been taken out by saturation bombing. I say this as my mom's cousin was a bomber pilot in the ETO during WW2. You might have a point about the bridges but they could also have been taken out.

It is also possible with the need for a better bomber in europe that Boeing could have had the B-29 available much earlier . Remeber there was no rush to get it operational in OTL because we were pushing the Japanese and the Germans back. With the Soviet attack everything changes and it suddenly becomes a crash program. Ideas and weapons are what is needed. German weapons designers would have been rushed out of Germany before the Soviets attacked either to the west or to Spain Its also highly likely that the Germans would still be holding out on there bases in France on the Atlantic.

Britain might very well do what it did in the Napoleon was use its sea power to its advantage. A massive air stike from the Middle east could have devastated Russias oil fields..

[BlairWitch749]

I have a lot of doubts regarding attacks on railroad yards. They could have been taken out by saturation bombing. I say this as my mom's cousin was a bomber pilot in the ETO during WW2. You might have a point about the bridges but they could also have been taken out.

It is also possible with the need for a better bomber in europe that Boeing could have had the B-29 available much earlier . Remeber there was no rush to get it operational in OTL because we were pushing the Japanese and the Germans back. With the Soviet attack everything changes and it suddenly becomes a crash program. Ideas and weapons are what is needed. German weapons designers would have been rushed out of Germany before the Soviets attacked either to the west or to Spain Its also highly likely that the Germans would still be holding out on there bases in France on the Atlantic.

Britain might very well do what it did in the Napoleon was use its sea power to its advantage. A massive air stike from the Middle east could have devastated Russias oil fields..


Massive strike from the middle east requires flying over the Caucus moutains which are some of the highest in the world plus the Russians would defend Baku and the other oil producing areas with maximum flak and fighter assets... wounded bombers wouldnt be able to recross the mountains... how well did the american raids on ploesti work out? and that didnt involve flying through huge mountain ranges

[chris N]

Actually they would fly over Persia, which would have been occupied by the Brits in 1941.

[BlairWitch749]

Actually they would fly over Persia, which would have been occupied by the Brits in 1941.

It would still be a difficult operation far worse than ploesti or regensburg... the flak would be wheel to wheel and the Russian fighters would accrew all the advantages of being on the defensive.

[chris N]

Actually It might not be as bad as you think. Flying over the Caspian Sea might offer them the element of Surprise. It might even be possible to offer them fighter escort using the Mosquito and P-38. The Bomber force would have to be large as to be able to suppress the Flak with saturation Bombing.
If the Allies could severly damage the oil fileds production then the Russian war machine might grind to a stop.

It needs to be stated that the Russians would not be operating with high octane gasoline,thus there aircraft would lack a lot of the power that they received with the lend lease supplies that they received in OTL.

It might even be that there might be friendlies around in Russia. IN OTL the resistance in the Ukraine continued to function into the mid 1950's despite efforts of the NKVD and in the Baltic State the anti communist resistance was functioning into the mid to late 1960's.

[marcus_aurelius]

Actually It might not be as bad as you think. Flying over the Caspian Sea might offer them the element of Surprise. It might even be possible to offer them fighter escort using the Mosquito and P-38. The Bomber force would have to be large as to be able to suppress the Flak with saturation Bombing.
If the Allies could severly damage the oil fileds production then the Russian war machine might grind to a stop.

It needs to be stated that the Russians would not be operating with high octane gasoline,thus there aircraft would lack a lot of the power that they received with the lend lease supplies that they received in OTL.

It might even be that there might be friendlies around in Russia. IN OTL the resistance in the Ukraine continued to function into the mid 1950's despite efforts of the NKVD and in the Baltic State the anti communist resistance was functioning into the mid to late 1960's.

Are you suggesting something akin to OTL's Operation Frantic? I'm not sure how well did that work out in the end, but the risk for having guerillas securing an decent airfield for that kind of operation here would be high... or would you have the guerilla take out the oilfields themselves?

Marc A

P.S. please forgive me for my ignorance on air power applications...:p

[David Floyd]

Chris, a minor monkey wrench for flying bomber missions from Persia...the Soviets were already jointly occupying Northern Iran (w/ the British). British forces in the region were very, very weak, and had the Soviets deemed it prudent it would have been very easy for them to commit an infantry army and a couple of tank brigades to the region and essentially dominate it.

I tend to agree WRT the ineffectiveness of strategic bombing - keep in mind that German industrial production INCREASED all the way up to the beginning of 1945, in spite of non-stop strategic bombing. Tactical bombing was much more effective, and, in areas where the Allies would have been capable of achieving air superiority, namely, north-western France, would have made a difference. IIRC, the French transportation net from the Belgian/German borders to southern France and Spain ran through regions that could have been effectively interdicted by Allied Tacair.

On the other hand, if you put 1000 B-17s/B-29s over a target, at any altitude, they are going to hit something, and it just wouldn't take THAT much to seriously disrupt Soviet logistics in France, since the logistics train would stretch back to the Soviet Union itself, and would already be running along a railway system that would have suffered serious damage, from the retreating Germans initially, and then the retreating Allies. Keep in mind that one thing the Soviets did not produce in any significant quantities in OTL was railway equipment and locomotives - most of this was supplied by Lend Lease. I understand their industry would not have been as torn up, but the Soviets simply did not have anything like the industrial capability of the United States, so they couldn't produce everything in the needed quantities, certainly not in the quantities they received from Lend Lease.

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

Without imnmediate peace treaty, the middle-east and north africa would fall under sovietic influence.

Actually It might not be as bad as you think. Flying over the Caspian Sea might offer them the element of Surprise. It might even be possible to offer them fighter escort using the Mosquito and P-38. The Bomber force would have to be large as to be able to suppress the Flak with saturation Bombing.
If the Allies could severly damage the oil fileds production then the Russian war machine might grind to a stop.



Then why didn´t Hitler do that IOTL? :rolleyes:

[David Floyd]

At no point during the war did Germany possess a heavy strategic bomber. ;)

Additionally, North Africa was probably out of reach for the Soviets. Logistically speaking, they couldn't have pushed enough forces through the Middle East to defeat the much greater forces the Western Allies could have deployed in defense of the region. Persia, yes. Iraq, yes. Kuwait, maybe. But the Soviets weren't gonna get south of Kuwait or West of Syria/Palestine.

[chris N]

Actually, with enough forces the British and Americans could have bottled the Soviets up in Northern Persia due to the Mountainous nature of the terrain and the need to move through areas that could be easily defended. A Soviet move into the region would probably also bring in Turkey on the allied side. The western allies would of course have to supply Turkey with tanks, planes, artillery and At weapons but they would have also gain a large amount of manpower.

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

At no point during the war did Germany possess a heavy strategic bomber. ;)

Additionally, North Africa was probably out of reach for the Soviets. Logistically speaking, they couldn't have pushed enough forces through the Middle East to defeat the much greater forces the Western Allies could have deployed in defense of the region. Persia, yes. Iraq, yes. Kuwait, maybe. But the Soviets weren't gonna get south of Kuwait or West of Syria/Palestine.

Strategic bombings? Ha! Bombing from 10 000 meters altitude isn´t going to the job, especially over the distances involved and the angle of attack, the oilfields aren´t just one big target that cannot be missed.
Tactical bombers and fighters would do a much better job at destroying dispersed infrastructures.

Middle-east? They´v been beaten in europe already, where they had a much greater advantage.
Very few allied forces there compared to europe, soviets have larger forces and can move them there faster, while the US and its allies are still reeling from Dunkrik 2.
IOTL, even the Afrika Korp took some times to be defeated and that was while the axis had a much greater fight elsewhere, in this case it would be a few millions soldiers that are better equipped, the maine soviet fight.
They would pass through turkey/Iran, then Iraq and Syria, then Kuwaite and Palestine.
Once there, they would move into north africa from east to west while in the west, Gibraltatar would have fallen.
Then there would be India, already bordered by the Japanes army in the east.

One thing that could be done, in theory (The Pearl Harbour attack was only a triviality compared with the events in europe), is for the british and the US to offer an alliance to the Japanes. Then, send as much forces as possible to Japanes-occupied China and Indochina. The US already have large, mostly intact forces in the pacific, even more so than IOTL.
The Soviets would still win in Manchuria, Korea and northern China but moving all the way to Vietnam would be much more difficult.
India might fall but the front in Myanamar could be held.

[The Red]

A Nation In Turmoil (Chapter 22)

Whilst the Soviets were overjoyed with Wallaces ascension his own countrymen were not. Mere months after his inaugaration he had made the humiliating peace with the USSR in which he had essentially sold out the oppressed peoples of Europe in most peoples eyes. He had attempted to sway the American people by dedicating all possible resources to the Pacific front, stating that the war in Europe had been a "grave misunderstanding". This had some success, dedicated isolationists and Soviet sympathisers argued that the Japanese were the main enemy and that American cooperation with fascist forces had been badly misinterpreted by the Soviets. However the large majority of the pre-Pearl Harbour isolationists were conservatives and many in fact had considered a Nazi dominated Europe was preferable to a Soviet one. Thus Wallaces plan of gaining isolationist support failed with the majority rallying against him.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/02/article-1031285-01D4111D00000578-882_468x615.jpg
Charles Lindbergh, who had famously argued against war with Germany in the first place now argued for a return to the war against the Soviets

Wallaces other policies were being met with even greater hostility. His plans for universal health care, civil rights, nationalisation of certain industries and adopting soldiers councils for the military were causing outrage in the senate. After the democrat split he could only rely on a small amount of progressive senators effectively hanging his administration. However Wallace refused to resign and remained commited to his ideals. Both the houses realised they would need to take matters into their own hands.

Henry Wallace was impeached on October 5, 1943, by the House of Representatives on grounds of treason to a grand jury (by a 395-39 vote) , Wallace became the second U.S. president to be impeached, following Andrew Johnson in 1868. The Senate trial lasted from October 15, 1943, until November 1 and was presided over by Chief Justice of the United States Harlan Fiske Stone. Wallaces defence made an admirable effort at attempting to persuade the senate of his intentions however the result was nevr in doubt. The treason charge was defeated with 79 votes for conviction and 21 against. Wallace was removed from office and declared inelligeble to run for future election. Within days of this ruling he disappeared from the public eye into self imposed exile in Iowa.

The torch now passed to Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn, a greatly respected politician who had supporters from both right and left. He had never wished to have this role, preferring to work out of the limelight however now it was his duty to restore a nation which had been badly shaken by the events of 1943. He quickly eradicated many of Wallaces policies and chose to assemble his cabinet with many of Roosevelts original members as call as more conservative Democrats. In his inaugral speech he outlined his intentions for Americas role in the new, chaotic world:

"My fellow Americans, events throughout this year have been traumatising not only for old dogs such as myself but also for the vast majority of honest American citizens who fear for their continued freedom. The Soviet Union has marched through all the ancient capitals of Europe with a fanaticism and zeal that goes hand in hand with totalitarianism. With the Japanese menace in the Far East and the Soviet juggernaut at the English Channel how long shall it be before both shining seas are blocked out by the mists of hatred and oppression?

We will take steps to ensure that the freedom of this great land is never threatened and we will defnd our allies with the same heroic actions with which we would defend our own homes. For although this winter will be long and dark, if we do not believe in freedom the winter can become all the darker.

http://iowaindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/sam-rayburn.jpg
[i]President Rayburn was left with the unenviable task of preparing America for transatlantic war

[Splatter123]

Good Chapter, Glad that America is back to fighting Communists. :D

Does this mean that Britain will probably get reinvolved as well? :confused:

[Astrodragon]

Just how is this suggested Soviet junket to NA and the middle east getting there?

By sea presumably...oh wait, the Soviets dont have a navy, and the Italian, French and RN are in the Med...
or, go by land...through Turkey..er....oops?

It would make more sense to go from the north into the middle east directly, except that the logistics are basically impossible...

Anyway, why do they want the middle east? Its full of sand and arabs, and they already have their own oil. The US/Uk oil comes from the Americas, so it wont hurt them an awful lot.

[The Red]

Anyway, why do they want the middle east? Its full of sand and arabs, and they already have their own oil. The US/Uk oil comes from the Americas, so it wont hurt them an awful lot.

Well a successful mid east campaign could theoretically could lead to them reaching the Suez, crossing it, and then driving all the way to Algeria which would Finlandize Turkey and make the med a Red lake.

But when did me or Blair ever say that the Soviets would attack the Mid East? :rolleyes:

[BlairWitch749]

In fact I've argued that due to the nature of the terrain and the distances involved that manuever warfare doesnt really work from Baku to Suez

[The Red]

We Stand United and Alone Part 1 (Chapter 23)

Whilst the United States had become embroiled in political turmoil, the Soviets had not chosen to relax. In the summer of 1943 the Red Army had finally crushed the remainder of French forces in the south. Quickly after the fall of Marseille a new government was proclaimed in the ruins of Paris with full French communist support. Soon they were informing the NKVD of hiding places and supply dumps of their former comrades who were now going back underground. Now there only remained two enemies which stood in the way of Marxs vision. Both Spain and Italy had suffered humiliating defeats at the hands of their respective enemies and their armies had been left gutted in the aftermath.

http://blocs.xtec.cat/mariaclara/files/2008/01/franco-serrano-mussolini-bordighera41.jpg
Europes fate now rested on it's two remaining Fascist states


After the Alsace encirclement, the Spanish army had lost much of the equipment the allies had grnated them. Although new shipments of equipment had begun arriving, Wallaces peace deal and the subsequent Anglo-American peace had left him essentially cut off. With the bulk of the Spanish army destroyed, Franco only had 2 full strength infantry divisions to defend his nation. Otherwise he could only rely on 3 inderstrength divisions which hadn't finished training and some home guard units which were comprised of old men and young boys and lacked proper equipment. However Franco still felt safe, the Pyrenees had historically safe guarded Spain from enemies and it would do so once again...

Georgy Zhukov, now possibly the most famous general in the world was left with planning the operation. It was decided that as Wallace would likely be impeached sooner or later that Spain was to take priority due to the fact that if they could seize Spain and Gibraltar then the allies would have a much harder time giving aid to Italy should they redeclare war. However the Pyrenees made an all out frontal attack on Spain nera impossible, the only decent terrain was in the far west of the border. Hence it was decided that an amphibious operation would be used to draw away Spanish troops from the border.

This operation would need to include support from behind enemy lines, and the Soviets could count on a large amount of that. Basque separatists, Catalonian separatists and the general Spanish resistance which had gone underground after the civil war. All of these groups had been recieving large amounts of supplies from the Soviets and had been causing havoc, putting great strain on the Spanish army to contain them, at times large parts of the countryside and villages were under their control.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7e/45_maquis.jpg
Spanish resistance fighters file through the Pyrenees

The attack finally came on the early morning of August the 2nd when thousands of Soviet paratroopers dropped over the mountains to secure the passes to ensure that the northern striking force would be able to roll through untroubled. The Spanish defenders were taken by suprise, expecting a simple frontal attack. By the time the sun had risen the large majority of the passes had been secured.

http://warandgame.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/tb3_1.jpg
Soviet Paratroopers come down over Spain

Information from Moscow had told the Partisans to rise up that day and pin as many Spanish troops down as possible. Also as of Moscows orders, Catalonian separatists staged an uprising in Barcelona. Within a small amount of time the local military units and police had been overthrown by a large wave of civillian support. With Catalonian partisans informing the Soviets that the city was in chaos the Soviets began the second phase of the operation.

A mix of French ships and ships from the Balck Sea fleet began to land troops near and around Barcelona. Soviet air control of northern Spain ensured Spaninsh naval interference was at a minimum. By the end of the first day the Soviets had managed to land 20,000 trrops in and around Barcelona. effecively securing the city by the end of the day.

With the knowledge that the beachead in the east was secure the Red Army now began its northern strike, aimed at liberating the Basque country. Although Franco had his best troops stationed there Soviet air control constantly hammered away at them as Zhukovs armoured divisions who were superior in both numbers and equipment forced them into retreat. The Spanish defenders were also handicapped by the Basque resistance behind their backs who greatly interfered with supply lines. The end result was a route of the Spanish forces as they rtereated in disarray with high casualities as the Soviets were cheered on by a welcoming populace. By the second day of the operation the Soviets had reached Bilbao where Zhukov himself stood outside the city hall and proclaimed an independent Basque Peoples Republic, a propaganda coup if there ever was one, this event even gave some Labour MPs a murmur of satisfaction. By the end of the fortnight the Soviets had full control of the Basque country.

Meanwhile in Barcelona, Soviet troops had not been able to advance much further than a few miles outside the city due to strained supply lines, however the beahehad was doing its job of drawing away as many troops as possible as the Red Army continued to march south. Franco desperately pleaded for western aid in any shape or form. However Wallace refused to help a fascist power and whilst Attlee had reservations as well he gave some support in the form of a few dozen Matildas and Spitfires. But it was too little too late as the Soviets continued to storm through Spain, the Spanish army fought valiantly and displayed many acts of heroism however completely outnumbered and outclassed, the result was never in doubt. After 4 weeks the Red Army had reached Barcelona, captured the majority of northern Spain and had encircled Madrid.

http://military.discovery.com/technology/vehicles/tanks/images/t34-625x450.jpg
T-34s on the road to Madrid

Like Hitler before him, Franco decided that he would not suffer the humiliation of fleeing the nations capital and decided to make his final stand in Madrid. With practically no supplies and being outnumbered 3:1 at least by the Red Army, the Spanish mounted a fanatical defense against the overwhelming odds. The Soviets by this point had complete conrrol of the skies and savagely bombarded the city before moving in on it. Like a cornered animal the defenders fought bitterly to the last round of ammunition, causing grave casualities for both sides. After 11 days Franco killed himself along with many of his most loyal commanders and soon the rest of the remaining defenders followed suit by surrendering.

http://worldwartwozone.com/photopost/data/500/medium/panzer1-spain.jpg
In their desperation, the Spanish utilised several Panzer 1's which they had recieved during the Spanish Civil War

With the fall of Madrid, the last remnants of Spanish morale collapsed. Many argued to continue the fight to the end but the majority of the now decapitated government argued that there was no point in a futile last stand where only more citizens would doubtlessly suffer. On September 15 the Spanish government unconditionally surrendered under the condition that the King would be allowed to flee to Britain along with the remnants of the government. Stalin happily accepted these terms and went about about splitting Spain into 3 different collaborationist republics. Quickly afterwards the Soviets took control of Gibralatar which had only become Spanish a few months before hand.

Now Stalins eyes turned to the final fascist power in Europe where Il Duce was waiting for him...

[chris N]

I have a lot of doubts about your invasion of Spain. Franco would have a lot more going for him than what you have. The rightist Militas would rally to the cause and Spanish arms industry would have been cranking out copies of German weapons such as the Me 109. In addition he would probably receive help from one of the Latin American nations- Argentia which would have sent arms and volunteers to fight the communist.

I also think that it would be totally unrealistic to believe that the entire Spanish -German Army would have been eliminated. A fair amount would have conducted a fighting retreat to the Spanish border, Blowing up Bridges behind them.

The Red Army would not be capable of mounting an offensive of the size that you envision for at least 9 months. It would also have to repair the railroads and bridges that were destroyed to move the supplies need t wage war.

Britain might also have released all of the German POWs to Spains. This would give Franco a consideralbe military force with which to defend Spain.

The Free French Movement would withdraw to North Africa to plan the next step in its battle to liberate France. Now from the Communist.

Those who believe that the Soviets could have launched an invasion of the Middle East are suffering from a serious case of under estimating the problems. To begin with the terrain in not favorable a determined foe could hold the passes. Next Turkey would stand against the Soviets. It would have been receiving German and allied weapons since 1939. As a result its Army would be capable of fighting and its airforce could defend the Turkish Skies, Alos Britain had a prescience in the Middle East and the US also had units assigned there.
With a new US President the US would now challenge the Soviets. I would also expect a US-Brazilian Army to land in Portugal.

[The Red]

I have a lot of doubts about your invasion of Spain. Franco would have a lot more going for him than what you have. The rightist Militas would rally to the cause and Spanish arms industry would have been cranking out copies of German weapons such as the Me 109. In addition he would probably receive help from one of the Latin American nations- Argentia which would have sent arms and volunteers to fight the communist.

I also think that it would be totally unrealistic to believe that the entire Spanish -German Army would have been eliminated. A fair amount would have conducted a fighting retreat to the Spanish border, Blowing up Bridges behind them.

The Red Army would not be capable of mounting an offensive of the size that you envision for at least 9 months. It would also have to repair the railroads and bridges that were destroyed to move the supplies need t wage war.

Britain might also have released all of the German POWs to Spains. This would give Franco a consideralbe military force with which to defend Spain.

Well first off, whilst Spain is on the road to economic recovery it cannot handle a war economy without economic aid, let alone a total war economy.

Argentina or any of the other latin American countries know that Spain is a lost cause and don't wish to antagonise the Soviets anymore then needed.

And the entire Spanish-German army wasn't destroyed however the majority of it was.

Also the South of France didn't take such a battering with only a few French divisions defending it also the Red Army had proven in OTL that it was good at mounting offensives with wrecked infrastructure ;)

Also I don't see the point of giving Franco PoW's when he's having trouble arming his own army.

[Nerdlinger]

On September 15 the Spanish government unconditionally surrendered under the condition that the King would be allowed to flee to Britain along with the remnants of the government.

How can you unconditionally surrender with one condition? :p

[chris N]

If I recall correctly part of the conditions for Spain entering the war on the Allied side was the re-eguipping of its military and massive military and economic aid. The Nationalist even during the civil war were able to produce enough weapons to arm themselves without the aid from Germany and Italy.
Thus the Spanish arms industry would be able of producing enough rifles, machine guns , mortars and artillery pieces to replace what was lost. Any Pz I that was left would have been converted to a SP gun mounting a Spanish 75mm gun. The main problem that the Spanish would have would be that they would need to receive Tanks , anti-tank guns aircraft from outside of Spain. The Spamish by this time were producing copies of the Me-109. It is probable that they would have received Rolls Royce engines for them thus making them more powerful than the German models.

It is also likely that Britain and the US would have turned over any captured German weapons- small arms , anti-tank guns , tanks, AA to Franco to help in the Defense of Spain.

As for Argentina the country was very much a pro-Axis country until 1944 and with a large population of German and Italian immigrants it would be more than likely to say the hell with the Soviet Union and send arms, aide and volunteers to fight the communist.

Despite differences most of Spain would have rallied around Franco and he would have had time to rebuid Spains army and Air Force. It would take the Soviets a long time to gain the supplies and munitions to rebuild their army. After every offensive that they launched in WWII the Red Army would have to stop to rebuild and regroup. There is no way that they would be able to launch the offensive as soon as you have them doing because France would be a mess. Most of the railroads, roads and Bridges would have been wrecked. All of the supplies to mount the offensive would have to come from Russia and there would still be resistance to the Russian occupation. As I pointed out before there was resistance to the Russians in the Ukraine until the mid-1950s and in the Baltic states until the late 1960's. in OTL. There would be resistance in Poland, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Hungary and elsewhere.

I see that next you plan to have the Russians deal with Italy. It is most likely that the Italians would have blown the tunnels that allow movement from Austria and France into Italy. Thus te Russians could pull any fast movement. Next the Italian Army would have had a chance to rearm itself and have the new pore powerful tank with a 75mm gun. It would have also had a lot more of its 90mm guns produced tusk it would have a weapon just as good as the german 88 or the Soviet 85mm gun. Italy would have had all of its POWs returned thus giving it more manpower. The Italians would have rebuilt its airforce and would still have a very powerful navy.

No I think that it is the Soviets under Stalin that have gotten themselves into a mess by over reaching and trying to swallow to much.

[BlairWitch749]

How can you unconditionally surrender with one condition? :p
japan seems to have been able to do this :D

[Peter]

Why would all of Spain rally around Franco? The White Terror hadn't even ended by the present ATL date, while the Soviet Union had been the only supporter of the Republic.

[chris N]

Generally what happens is that whn a country is invaded the people rally around the leader. It has happen before to Spain- during the Napoleonic Wars. Definitely all of the parties of the right would rally to the defense of Spain.

t is probable that as a result of Spain being forced to join the allies that conditions might have improved for the Spanish people.

[The Red]

Why would all of Spain rally around Franco? The White Terror hadn't even ended by the present ATL date, while the Soviet Union had been the only supporter of the Republic.

Exactly, resistance continued into the late sixties not to mention the early fourties.

[The Red]

Generally what happens is that whn a country is invaded the people rally around the leader.

Not always, look at the reaction of people in the Baltics and the Ukraine at the start of Barbarossa.

[chris N]

Let me take another look at your invasion of southern Spain by the use of French and Russian shipping. To begin with most of the French commerical fleet would have been either destroyed or have fled. Those ships of the French navy would have fled to north African ports. Free France would be at war with Russia and would thus attack any Russian or French Communist ship that attempted to sail in the Med. It is also likely that the Italians would allow their submarines to torpedo any Soviet ship that was in the region.

I would agree that most of the people that fought for the Spainsh Republic would not be fans of Franco but I doubt if they would be fans of Stalin's either. I am convinced that the Spanish army with its allies would have been able to rebuild itself. The Soviet army was big and powerful but it also had lots of problems. It did not have the capacity to wage a war all over Europe and the middle East.

Turkey would have been building and modernizing its army and Air Force for the past 4 years. As a result it would have a military capable of challenging the Russians should they attempt to enter the Middle East or Greece.

Britain would be forced to act as it could not afford to see Stalin dominate Europe even as it would not have tolerated Napoleon or Hitler. Yes Stalin had gone too far the war would have to enter another round.

Stalin would have to spread his army around in order to defend everything that he had taken. Thus the allies would not have to land with 150 divisions but chose a place and a time to suit them. Yes, the people of western Europe would rise. The resistance would begin by striking at the traitors who sold out to the Soviets. Trans would be blown up as would bridges.fuel dumps attacked. It would be a war of a thousand cuts. Each one would weaken the Russian Monster.

[chris N]

Another point to be considered regarding Spain by this time the Spainh navy would have repaired any ships damaged in the civil war. While the two battleships were a total loss Spain would have 2 heavy cruisers, 5 light cruisers and at least a dozen destroyers plus a few submarines. this would make any amphibious landing very dicey.

In addition the US and Great Britain could have released German naval personal and some of the captured submarines to help in the defense of Spain.

Thus I believe that an invasion of Spain could be defeated. I also believe that as a result of Stalin's treachery Churchill might have lead his party to victory in the elections,

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

Red army blitzkrieg! :D


How could Spain stand against that ? Especially when the colonialist/imperialist beast have already been defeated in France and Germany.
Only problem is Japan, the allies would have asked the Japanes governement for a common war against the soviet-union.
They might still want a Japanes surrender but in that case, they would mererly concentrate on containing soviet advance in China and Myanamar then attack Japan later.

The Japanes could understand that quiet well and might seek an alliance with the CCCP, since Stalin might have some hesitations as to a communist continental asia, that could become a giant problem later to Moscow.

[chris N]

I will once again state that I find the premiums that Russia could launch an offensive across the mountain range that separates Spain from France to be unbelievable in view of all of the destruction that would have taken place in France. It would take a lot longer for the Russians to reuild the units that had suffered loses not to mention resupply and re-equipping them. France would have suffered massive damage to its infrastructure.

To top that off Red has the Soviets launching a seaborne assault on the southern coast of Spain. There would be no French Merchant Marine to support such an invasion and to state that the Soviets would have brought ships from the Black Sea is a Joke. Even though the German suffered a disaterious loss in Russia they were still able to inflict massive loses on the Black Sea Fleet do to the Luftwaffe.

Spain has an intact Navy from which to blow any invasion fleet out of the water. The French Navy would have withdraw to North Africa, evacuating the Remans of the French Army. It would also engage the soviets. French warships located in the Western Hemisphere would return to support the Free French.

[The Red]

Britain would be forced to act as it could not afford to see Stalin dominate Europe even as it would not have tolerated Napoleon or Hitler. Yes Stalin had gone too far the war would have to enter another round.

Wallace is still in the White House at this point he can veto any help going to Franco, whose regime Wallace hated. Attlee also was not the greatest admirer of Franco and even though he realises that Franco is the lesser evil he also knows that Britain has taken a battering thanks to the war and that he faces the prosepect of fighting Stalin alone.

Stalin would have to spread his army around in order to defend everything that he had taken. Thus the allies would not have to land with 150 divisions but chose a place and a time to suit them. Yes, the people of western Europe would rise. The resistance would begin by striking at the traitors who sold out to the Soviets. Trans would be blown up as would bridges.fuel dumps attacked. It would be a war of a thousand cuts. Each one would weaken the Russian Monster.

The Soviets have at least twice the amount of troops the Germans had in 1943/44 and similar equipment. Seeing as they have no 'Eastern Front' they could easily occupy all of their holdings whilst still being able to crush resistance. Even better they have local communist help, the same communists who formed a vital part of every wartime resistance who will know their former allies, were they are likely to hide, likely tactics etc. They do not discriminate on terms of race, during the war the most effective resistance movements were in eastern Europe partly due to the fact the Nazis were so despicable towards the slavs, under Soviet occupation you are not an enemy just beause you are a slav which will likely keep many from violent resistance. The same goes for the Jews, only more so. Whilst Jews will certainly join resistance movements, the fact Soviets arent actively hunting and slaughtering them will prevent the large amounts of Jewish partisans that there were during the war.

Thus the Soviets will have less trouble with resistance as well as millions more men available to defend against Allied invasion.

[chris N]

Wallace 's veto could be overridden . The man never was popular and with his actions it would be easy to muster more than a 2/3rd vote to over ride t him.

As for the Red Army it would have taken loses pushing the Germans back and it would have taken more loses in launching its surprise offensive. Thus the Russians would have to halt and reorganize. before they could launch an offensive. Europe would be in shambles and thus the Russians would have to rebuild the rail lines to move the supplies forward.

You are also operating on the assumption that the resistance movement in Europe was dominated by the Communist. While it to a great degree was true in France ( but not entirely) the Resistance movement in Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Czechoslovakia, and Poland was dominated by non-communist or anti-communist. Even in Yugoslavia and Greece there were anti-communist and communist resistance groups.

I do not believe that Atlee would have won the election as a result of the Soviet Sneak attack. I think that its more likely that it would have angered the British Public and made them fighting made.

If the allies could dominate the skies over the Chanel then they could have also brought in the Battleships Even the 12 inch guns of the Wyoming could have chewed up the Russian Divisions that came within their range not to mention the Colorado's 16in guns or the Royal Soverigns 15 in. The Germans found that out in Normandy when they tried to pudh to the sea. The Red Army would have never made it .

[The Red]

Wallace 's veto could be overridden . The man never was popular and with his actions it would be easy to muster more than a 2/3rd vote to over ride him.

It's not impossible I suppose, however the invasion only took place within a few weeks it's not unlikely that the damage would be done before any bill is passed.



As for the Red Army it would have taken loses pushing the Germans back and it would have taken more loses in launching its surprise offensive. Thus the Russians would have to halt and reorganize. before they could launch an offensive. Europe would be in shambles and thus the Russians would have to rebuild the rail lines to move the supplies forward.

Because of the quick German retreat and the quick Allied one after that, Europe is not nearly as in as much of a state as it was OTL. Also the Soviets have had the majority of 3 months to prepare for this operation.

You are also operating on the assumption that the resistance movement in Europe was dominated by the Communist. While it to a great degree was true in France ( but not entirely) the Resistance movement in Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Czechoslovakia, and Poland was dominated by non-communist or anti-communist. Even in Yugoslavia and Greece there were anti-communist and communist resistance groups.

I didn't say they were dominated by communists merely that every resistance at least had communists in it however small which would be an advantage to the Soviets.

I do not believe that Atlee would have won the election as a result of the Soviet Sneak attack. I think that its more likely that it would have angered the British Public and made them fighting made.

There hasn't been an election yet.

If the allies could dominate the skies over the Chanel then they could have also brought in the Battleships Even the 12 inch guns of the Wyoming could have chewed up the Russian Divisions that came within their range not to mention the Colorado's 16in guns or the Royal Soverigns 15 in. The Germans found that out in Normandy when they tried to pudh to the sea. The Red Army would have never made it .

I agree but did I ever say the Soviets would attempt a cross channel invasion? :rolleyes:

[chris N]

If there hasn't been an election yet then Atlee would not be Prime Minister.. The Conservative Party had the Majority and thus the Prime Minster would come from that party not Labor. Either Churchill or Anthony Eden would be Prime Minister.
Point 2 I didn't say that the Russians would attempt to cross the Channel. I said that Sea Power would prevent the Red Army from Coming any closer to the coast than 25 to 30 miles due to the battleships firepower. All that would be needed would be control of the skies.

Thus the Spanish German Army that withdrew back into Spain would blown every bridge and rail connection behind them. This would mean that it would take longer than 3 months to mount an invasion. During this time Spain's armament factories would be producing rifles, mortars, artillery pieces, machine guns and armored vehicles. Additional arms would arrive from overseas and from Portugal, which also had a right winged government. There would be co-operation between the French government in Exile and the Spanish government.

Britain could easily allow the captured Italian weapons taken in North Africa to be shipped to Spain. Arms would flow into Spain from a varity of places including Latin America and even the US. This would mean that the German-Spanish forces would have had a chance to rebuild and rearm. Volunteers would come to fight on the Nationalist side as they did during the Spanish Civil War. It is most likely that all of the Pz I tanks would have been converted to SP AT guns mounting the Spanish 75mm gun. I have little doubt that Rommel would be suggesting ways to improvise to improve the defenses. Ut is also likely that the passes would be blown so that nothing could move into Spain,
You also under-estimate Franco. Unlike Hitler Franco was a professional soldier. he would not waste his soldiers lives but inflict the most loses possible on the other side.It would be a war as nasty as was fought on the Eastern Front during WWII in OTL.

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

Because of the armistice, the british would have plenty of forces to defend their own coast. That is why they had it in the first place.
Hovewer, if the Royal navy cames too close to northern French coast, it would be sunk by soviet bombers, simple as that.


The Soviets have at least twice the amount of troops the Germans had in 1943/44 and similar equipment. Seeing as they have no 'Eastern Front' they could easily occupy all of their holdings whilst still being able to crush resistance. Even better they have local communist help, the same communists who formed a vital part of every wartime resistance who will know their former allies, were they are likely to hide, likely tactics etc. They do not discriminate on terms of race, during the war the most effective resistance movements were in eastern Europe partly due to the fact the Nazis were so despicable towards the slavs, under Soviet occupation you are not an enemy just beause you are a slav which will likely keep many from violent resistance. The same goes for the Jews, only more so. Whilst Jews will certainly join resistance movements, the fact Soviets arent actively hunting and slaughtering them will prevent the large amounts of Jewish partisans that there were during the war.

Thus the Soviets will have less trouble with resistance as well as millions more men available to defend against Allied invasion.


In Spain, there had been the civil war, they will be plenty of local supporters, the republic shall rise again yeee-ha! :cool:
Spanish industry is small even compared to that of even France, one can imagine how it would far against against the frigging Soviet-Union.
Only places where large scale resistance would be possible are Germany and Hungary.

[The Red]

We Stand United and Alone Part 2 (Chapter 24)

Since Italys conditional surrender in 1942, Mussolini had been taking steps to ensure that Italy was in a position of optimum strength when the Allies would arrive to occupy her. However the swift Allied victories on both the Eastern and Western fronts had shocked Italian commanders and planned military reforms were sped up. When the Soviets launched their offensive into western Germany in the summer of 1943 these efforts were made even more frantic. Where Mussolini had hoped once to convince the Anglo-Americans that a reformed Italian army would be an invaluable asset to any post war European defence alliance he now realised that very soon he may need to defend his own country from communism. Wallaces peace only ceritifed this fear, Italy was alone.

Mussolini realised from the disastorous campaigns against the Greeks and the British that the Italian Army had to be prepared to face a nemesis far more lethal than either of those past foes. Italian armour proven to be inadequate against the much heavier British tanks with many of the small tankettes being completely obsolete and even improved models being easily bested by superior British firepower and armour. Now they would have to face a foe which was superior to British armour in both numbers and class.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-177-1451-03A%2C_Griechenland%2C_italienischer_Panzer.jpg
Italian tanks were woefully inadequate at facing modern armour

With the realisation that Italian armour would never best the Soviets as well as the fact that Italy was not suited for the vast tank battles of the eastern front. The P26/40 Carra Armato was designed with the purpose of anti-tank warfare in mind. The P26/40 design was reasonably up-to-date, but the tank was without some modern features such as welded armour, reliable suspension, a cupola for the commander, and a powerful machine gun. These faults were taken into account when the improved P43 went into production. The P 43's development was greatly aided by German generals who had fled south of the border after the initial Soviet invasion, they gave expertise on how the tank would be able to face Soviet models. The riveted construction was switched to welding, the famous Christie suspension was implemented. The tank commander now recieved a cupola and the weak Breda 8mm machine gun was replaced with the efficient German Mg 17.

http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/attachments/land-warfare/14105d1253174292-italian-armour-kummersdorf-beute-p40-09.jpg
German panzer commanders reviewing the P26/40, they quickly became aware it would need significant improvement

However Mussolini had to swallow the hard facts about defending his country. The alps did not completely protect his nation and the Soviets could easily enter through Yugoslavia. Once they had began their invasion it was likely that the entire north of Italy would be overrun. The Patriot Line was a series of Italian military fortifications in central Italy, constructed during 1942 and 1943. The main line of fortification, called the Green Line, ran across Italy from just north of where the Garigliano River flows into the Tyrrhenian Sea in the west, through the Apennine Mountains to the mouth of the Sangro River on the Adriatic coast in the east. The centre of the line, was anchored around the mountains behind the town of Cassino including Monte Cassino, which had an old abbey sitting atop it and which dominated the entrance to the Liri valley, and Monte Cairo which gave the defenders clear observation of any potential attackers. On the western side of the Apennines there were two subsidiary lines: the Red Line in front of the main Gustav positions and the White Line some 5 miles to the rear. The Patriot line was fortified with gun pits, concrete bunkers, turreted machine-gun emplacements, barbed-wire and minefields. It was hoped that this could force the Soviets into static warfare until either America could intervene or the Soviets offered a peace.

All throughout 1943 the skies of Italy had been filled with dogfights and formations of aircarft as the Soviets had attempted to establish air supremacy over Italy. However unlike Spain the Italian air force had large numbers of excellent aircraft and skilled pilots, with many of their models besting the best Soviet designs. Although Soviet numbers managed to cause the Italians heavy losses, by mid August it was decided that the invasion would go ahead

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/C.205_V.JPG
Modern fighters such as the Macchi C.205 kept the Red Air Force at bay during the summer of 1943

Unlike the invasion of Spain the Soviet plan was unimaginative but straight forward, 3 armies along with one tank army crossed into Italy with heavy artillery and air support on the 15th of August. Italian defenses on the immediate border were quickly smashed, armoured columns armed with the new P43's quickly engaged the Soviets armoured spearheads. Although the T-34 was proven to be superior to its Italian counterpart, heavy losses were taken by both sides. The local communist partisans rose up to aid heir comrades but did not have the desired effect. Although they managed to cause the Italians trouble the effect was mainly in the north whilst the conservative south stayed relatively stable.

Italian resistance was fierce, with massed air attacks inflicting heavy damage on Soviet armoured columns and infantry and P43 commandes often leading heroic charges on enemies with superior numbers however the end result was never in doubt and by mid September northern Italy was in Soviet hands. As Italian forces retreated they destroyed everything they could, blowing up bridges and factories wherever possible whilst bombarding the Soviets from both the air and the sea as they advanced southwards.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/RNVittorio_Veneto-Battle_of_Cape_Spartivento.jpg
The Vittorio Veneto lays waste to Soviet armoured columns advancing down the Adriatic highway

Romes fall on the 29th of September led to a massive drop in morale and anger in many Italians. Why had the capital not been defended?! The propaganda urged calm, the Duce had a plan they claimed. This wasn't exactly false. As the Soviets reached the Patriot line they quickly became bogged down. The Armoured warfare that they had become suited to was impossible in the mountainous terrain. Constant attacks were ordered to break the line however the well dug in Italian positions along with the worsening weather only led to each attack ending in bloody stalemate...

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/136457-1/Obice+da+75_18
Italian artillery bombards the Soviets below near Monte Camino

[BlairWitch749]

:Dreverse gustav line .... me likes

[chris N]

Let me say the following. If the allies had air Superiority over the English Channel then there would be no threat from the Red Air Force to the Battleships.
Point two : Congress has the power to pass legislation to allow the sale or give military aid to any country. While Wallace could veto it. It would be doubtful if his veto would be upheld. Thus military aid would flow to Spain.
Point 3: Check the history of the region that you are having the Italians and the Russians fight in. In World War I it was one of the most deadly places to fight in. In fact you better have chosen the summer to fight in or the red army would be going NOWHERE!

Point 4: the Italian Yugoslav border had been fortified after WWI. The Italians had put in fortification to protect the region. I would expect that as a result of the bad fortunes of Germany that the region would be even more heavily fortified.

Point 5: while there might be some Italian Communist Partisans they would be even less effective than you would have them. The Italians would fight with great tenacity. Also while the Red Army would be big so would the Italian army. It would use every obstacle and river to the gratest advantage. Rail road guns would be hidden allowing the Italians to hit the Reds with 15' artillery.

Point 5 By this time the new US President would send troops to Italy and demand that the Soviets withdraw.

[Whumbly]

Great stuff.

I have a question about the new Free French army in Africa and Asia will they come to help Italy?

[BlairWitch749]

Let me say the following. If the allies had air Superiority over the English Channel then there would be no threat from the Red Air Force to the Battleships.
Point two : Congress has the power to pass legislation to allow the sale or give military aid to any country. While Wallace could veto it. It would be doubtful if his veto would be upheld. Thus military aid would flow to Spain.
Point 3: Check the history of the region that you are having the Italians and the Russians fight in. In World War I it was one of the most deadly places to fight in. In fact you better have chosen the summer to fight in or the red army would be going NOWHERE!

Point 4: the Italian Yugoslav border had been fortified after WWI. The Italians had put in fortification to protect the region. I would expect that as a result of the bad fortunes of Germany that the region would be even more heavily fortified.

Point 5: while there might be some Italian Communist Partisans they would be even less effective than you would have them. The Italians would fight with great tenacity. Also while the Red Army would be big so would the Italian army. It would use every obstacle and river to the gratest advantage. Rail road guns would be hidden allowing the Italians to hit the Reds with 15' artillery.

Point 5 By this time the new US President would send troops to Italy and demand that the Soviets withdraw.


That part of the country around Venice has relatively low/flat terrain that would reduce the effectiveness of fortifications. The communists were centered in the northern parts of the country especially around Genoa and Turin

The Russians advanced to the Gustav line (more or less) which involved capturing Rome thats a pretty significant advance from the Yugoslav border... and yes as the pic showed the Italian battlewagons laid down the law

[chris N]

The Italians would have also used Heavy guns on railroad carriages similar to Anzio Annie.
If I recall correctly a lot of the area that the soviets are launching their offensive in could be easily flooded. This would bring the Russian steamroller to a screeching halt.

Great Britain and the US are now going to be forced to act. The cost will be high but that is because of the idot Wallace's action.

I do believe this bit of a Soviet steamroller ovr running everything in Europe is unreaistic. Nor do I believe that Atlee would be Prime Minister. He only became Prime Minister in OTL when there was a general election and the people of Great Britain thought that the war in Europe was over. With the Soviets having stabbed the allies in the back the public would be angry. Have we gone back full circle to a government of appeasement Ala Mr Chamberlain.

Britain wouldn't tolerate Napoleon dominating Europe why do you believe that they would tolerate Stalin controlling all of Europe?

[chris N]

The Italians would have also used Heavy guns on railroad carriages similar to Anzio Annie.
If I recall correctly a lot of the area that the soviets are launching their offensive in could be easily flooded. This would bring the Russian steamroller to a screeching halt.

Great Britain and the US are now going to be forced to act. The cost will be high but that is because of the idot Wallace's action.

I do believe this bit of a Soviet steamroller ovr running everything in Europe is unreaistic. Nor do I believe that Atlee would be Prime Minister. He only became Prime Minister in OTL when there was a general election and the people of Great Britain thought that the war in Europe was over. With the Soviets having stabbed the allies in the back the public would be angry. Have we gone back full circle to a government of appeasement Ala Mr Chamberlain.

Britain wouldn't tolerate Napoleon dominating Europe why do you believe that they would tolerate Stalin controlling all of Europe?

[The Red]

The Italians would have also used Heavy guns on railroad carriages similar to Anzio Annie.
If I recall correctly a lot of the area that the soviets are launching their offensive in could be easily flooded. This would bring the Russian steamroller to a screeching halt.

Did you read the update? That's what happens. :rolleyes:

Nor do I believe that Atlee would be Prime Minister. He only became Prime Minister in OTL when there was a general election and the people of Great Britain thought that the war in Europe was over.

Attlee was Deputy Prime Minister, when Churchill went out in the vote of no confidence Attlee would have taken over. Historically Churchill wished to continue the coalition until Japan had been defeated, here the war in the pacific is still very much alive and is going much worse for the allies also Attlee isnt as politically secure as he is so there's not the same motivation to break the coalition.

With the Soviets having stabbed the allies in the back the public would be angry. Have we gone back full circle to a government of appeasement Ala Mr Chamberlain.

Britain wouldn't tolerate Napoleon dominating Europe why do you believe that they would tolerate Stalin controlling all of Europe?


It's not appeasement as much as common sense, Britain can't fight the Soviets alone so Attlees keeping the peace whilst waiting for senate to boot out Wallace.

[chris N]

Yes I know that Atlee was the Deputy Prime Minister in a government of National uity but if Churchill was forced out then there would have to either be new elections or a new government would be formed perhaps with Atlee remaining as deputy Prime Minister but the Conservatives would chose the Prime Minister as they had the majority in the Parliament. The King would in the event of new elections appoint a caretaker government . It would appear to me that he would chose the Conservatives either Anthony Eden or Lord Halifax.

OH RED< I did read the Update on this group and nowhere does it mention what I brought up the use of Heavy guns (12.6-15" guns) on railroad mountings. Blairwithch does mention the Italian Navy bombarding inland from at sea.

[AliceInDystopia]

Okay... when will Stalin decide to get rid of Zhukov? I mean, Stalin was paranoid, and Zhukov could actually be in a position to seize power in the USSR in this TL. At this point, I'd see our "Great USSR" just break down into civil war.

[BlairWitch749]

a conflict between those two isn't long in comming

[David Floyd]

This is the point where the US and Britain *should* start pumping in forces to defend Southern Italy. What is the state of Gibraltor? Did it fall to the Soviets, and if so, it must have been a hell of a fight.

What's going on in the Middle East?

What's Sweden doing, and what's the status of Norway? Can Britain and Norway - and Sweden, which wouldn't be totally out of line - open up a northern front, should they decide to do so?

I would think that the Soviets are caught in a quagmire in central Italy, and the more troops that can be drawn to that theater, the better for the US/Britain/Italy (assuming the US and Britain come back in).

[The Red]

ATTERO DOMINATUS (CHAPTER 25)

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
Revelation, 20. 2

http://uralica.com/kuvat/skiisandguns.jpgSoviet troops on the Patriot Line, November 1943

As Autumn became Winter Soviet attacks against the Patriot line became increasingly desperate. Rayburns inaugartion had left Stalin terrified of an American redeclaration of war and hoped to have occupied the entire Italian mainland if such an event were to occur. However the bitter mountain fighting continued with heavy casualties on both sides. The Soviets armour superiority was worthless in the mountains and it showed as the Italians continously lobbed artillery and mortars at the Soviets from pre-planned dug in defenses. In the air the Soviets began to gain the upper hand, taking advantage of their numbers and the capture of much of the Italians industry however the massive bombing raids they inflicted on the line sometimes led to their own troops being hit and the destruction of the monastery on Monte Cassino, incinerating everyone inside, led to international outbursts of rage .
As the snows became heavier it finally became clear to Stalin that the line would not break by the end of the year. Furious, Stalin ordered the Red Air Force to unleash a whirlwind of destruction on southern Italy. With the Regia Auronatica worn out after the last round of offensives the bombings caused massive civillian deaths and created columns of refugees streching for miles.
For the Rayburn preisdency this proved to be the perfect Caussus Belli, in December he sent an ultimatum to the Soviets offering to mediate between the two nations under the condition that the Soviets first leave Italy. After the Soviet refusal and energetic encouragement from both left and right in congress American redeclared war on December 11th, a symbolic act. Several days later, with America back in the war, Prime minister Attlee also declared war on the Soviet Union on the 20th.
With the industrial might of America back in the war; Mussolini was ecstatic, now Italy might just be saved from communism. Although how best to land in Europe was of much debate. Many British and American officers argued for a direct cross channel invasion seeing as it was the most direct way into Europe and it could potentially cut off Soviet troops in Spain. However the Soviets had several powerful divisions in France and much of the resistance that had caused so much disruption during Sledgehammer was now collaborating with the occupiers and helping to crush what was left of it. Norway as well was discounted, not only did the Soviets have s ignificant presence there as well but it was considered too unambitious. The general agreement was that a landing in Italy would be the best idea. Allied troops were already steming up the Suez to aid in the defense of the Patriot line however just because the Soviets had failed to penetrate it in 1943 didn’t mean it was impossible for them to break open the line in 1944.
Thus a landing, north of Rome, was agreed by the allied general staf and planned for early May. Although Gibraltar had been overrun by the Soviets quickly after Spains collapse, vast amounts of allied troops and supplies were transported through the Suez Canal and North Africa to Sardinia from the operation would be launched. Throughout the winter and spring troops and supplies came in constantly whilst air superiority over northern Italy was wrestled from the Soviets, any naval presence they had in the Med had also been scattered. All throughout the year the Allies had leaked false intelligence that the landing would be near Rome, fake units were even set up in an attempt to dupe the Red Army.
Eventually in May the operation codenamed Komodo left from the Sardinian ports and hit Citivecchia on the western Italian coast after an intense naval bombardment. The allied maskirovka had worked to the extent that the Soviets had no armour in the immediate area allowing for the allied forces to quickly establish a beachhead and begin to drive inland whilst Italian and American forces attempted to tie down as many troops as possible by launching an offensive northwards. With alarming speed the Americans secured the port and broke through the weak Soviet lines.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Nara_ww294_w455.jpg
American troops advance through Italy, June 1944

Supreme commander of Soviet forces in Italy, Marshal Konev warned Stalin that the Allies could soon cut him off if he did not pull back to northern Italy. Stalin refused, believing the Red Army could hold both the South and West of Italy at the same time. Going against the advice of many of his Marshals he ordered Konev to hold the line and even ordered further armour to push the allies back into the sea.
The result was a catastrophe for the Soviets, allied forces under Patton reached Pescara by June, trapping 450,000 Red Army troops between him and the Patriot line, barely a month after Konev surrendered with the remnants of his pocket.

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/images/30015569%20Amerikanische%20Sowjetische%20Offiziere .jpg
Soviet officers surrender to their American counterparts.

With their frontline in tatters and rumours circulating of a second purge. Ever since the first plans to attack the western allies had been drawn up, the Army had had a plan to replace Stalin. With the early successes in Germany and western Europe the plan had suffered from weak support but after the Italian debacle support for a coup grew. And after Stalins order to purge certain elements of STAVKA was confirmed, it was agreed even by many Marshals that Stalin would need to go.
Thus on August 6th, Stalin was driven out of Moscow on a planned trip to Kalinin and never returned. Unknown to Stalins driver, there was a miniscule bomb hidden inside the engine, when it went off it incinerated him and the premier leaving only a burnt wreck on the road where the great tyrant had once been.
Tanks lined the streets as the Red Army took city after city using Stalins assassination to their advantage by blaming more radical elements of the KGB were launching a coup by the end of 2 days most of the country was under their control. After several show trials which left many KGB and NKVD leaders dead or imprisoned Zhukov declared himself temporary premier and reached out to the Aliies for peace terms.

http://www.aworldtowin.net/images/images570/HungarianTroops.jpg
Soviet Troops line the streets of Moscow

Initially the allies were reluctant to make peace however with the Red Army in control of the nation, the Soviets withdrew to the Alps and were holding it stubbornly. It seemed that although Italy had finally been liberated the Allies could not advance further northwards. However intelligence showed that the Soviets were preparing for an invasion of China on their fronteir and there seemed no end in sight in either Europe or the Pacific. Casualty estimates for the total defeat of both Japan and the Soviet Union predicted over 2 million dead and 6 million wounded.
Hence, the allies agreed to a cease fire and met with the new Soviet government in Oslo. The Oslo conference was heated at best and an open shouting match at the worst both blame for the war and demands for fired and rejected furiously at each other. The western allies demanded total Soviet withdrawal to their August 1939 border, meanwhile the Soviets wanted much of Europe to stay under their influence and for the rest of the states to act as buffers. The eventual compromise left neither side happy. The Red Army would retreat back to behind the Weser whilst the rest of western Europe would be under Allied control. The signing of the Oslo accords led to a vast mix of contrasting emotions in every nation with many wishing to keep fighting and many more just glad for peace. However both sides knew that this peace was an interlude at best...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/other/us-army_germany_1944-46_p41.jpg
Whilst both sides smiled for the newsreels the Oslo peace coference was little more than a shouting match

Epilouge
17th December 1947, Moscow
Premier Zhukov watched on as the smoky haze from the last tank exhaust fumes from the Victory over Fascism day paradebegan to ascend into the heavens. It was an excellent spectacle, and it served to continue to remind the west that the Red Army continued to be the strongest in the world.
The war with Japan had only ended last month however this would make an excellent statement if they ever considered moving eastwards once more.
He saw his aide file through the assorted guests as they retired indoors to hide away from the bitterly cold day.
“Comrade Premier”, he said discreetly, “that was Sakharov, he claims that they have a plutonium device ready for testing.
A large smile appeared on the premiers lips, a new age was dawning, an age which would render tanks and bombs as useless as toys and dolls. Now the Soviet Union would finally have the power to make the revolution global...

The End

http://kenraggio.com/mushroomCloud.jpg
------------------------------------------------
As always, comments and criticism are welcome, we hope you've enjoyed this little TL. :)

[BlairWitch749]

Brilliant ending Red... I hope you all enjoyed the joint venture and felt the ending was just

[chris N]

To be honest I think that the Russians 's victories in this whole time line were unrealistic.. Politically Great Britain could never have allowed the Russians to do what they did. Atlee would not have become Prime Minister. He was deputy Prime Minister in Name ONLY. A member of the Conservative party would have become Prime Minister.

The allies could have after their victory in Italy chosen to attack in a lot of areas- Spain ( either from Portugal or from the sea) , France- either across the channel of in the South, The Balkans or Norway. Russia could not defend everywhere. Next Rayburn would have been a lot tougher than you have him. The man is a Texan and would not settle for what you have proposed.

[The Red]

To be honest I think that the Russians 's victories in this whole time line were unrealistic.

How exactly? The Germans were wrecked after being so overextended and could never recover after the collapse of Army Group Centre especially with Sledgehammer. Afterwards the Soviets were superior in the early battles were superior to their enemies in both numbers and technology, at least on the ground, thus their victories are not that implausible.

Politically Great Britain could never have allowed the Russians to do what they did.

With America out of the war what choice did they have?

He was deputy Prime Minister in Name ONLY. A member of the Conservative party would have become Prime Minister.

He would still have automatically become Prime Minister and without a vote of no confidence he couldn't be moved.

The allies could have after their victory in Italy chosen to attack in a lot of areas- Spain ( either from Portugal or from the sea) , France- either across the channel of in the South, The Balkans or Norway. Russia could not defend everywhere.

The allies couldn't attack everywhere either, in France and Spain Soviet forces were too powerful, attacking the Balkans would be a bloodbath and attcking Norway would likely become one as well, a mix of mountainous terrain and neutral Sweden makes it very easy to defend.

Also the peace terms Rayburn is offered are very generous, the Soviets are essentially willing to go back behind the Weser, and accomplishment which would have taken years and millions of casualties to pull off.

[chris N]

It is very likely that the Conservative party would not have agreed to Atlee becoming Prime Minister and would have voted no confidence. The King would then have the choice of asking Atlee to form a government, which he couldn't, ask the conservatives to form a government or call for new elections with a caretaker government. The caretaker government would not be run by Atlee.

True the Western allies couldn't attack everywhere, inless they mounted raids and then an invasion but the Soviets would have to defend everywhere.

This could mean an invasion in the south of France and an invasion from Portugal. The allies would have the advantage of Seapower allowing them the choice of where to strike.

Red you have overestimated the ability of the Red Army and underestimated the ability of the western powers to fight. Wallace would never had the ability to do a lot of the stuff that you have let him do. He was very unpopular when he becaome FDR's running mate.

Well enough said.

[BlairWitch749]

It is very likely that the Conservative party would not have agreed to Atlee becoming Prime Minister and would have voted no confidence. The King would then have the choice of asking Atlee to form a government, which he couldn't, ask the conservatives to form a government or call for new elections with a caretaker government. The caretaker government would not be run by Atlee.

True the Western allies couldn't attack everywhere, inless they mounted raids and then an invasion but the Soviets would have to defend everywhere.

This could mean an invasion in the south of France and an invasion from Portugal. The allies would have the advantage of Seapower allowing them the choice of where to strike.

Red you have overestimated the ability of the Red Army and underestimated the ability of the western powers to fight. Wallace would never had the ability to do a lot of the stuff that you have let him do. He was very unpopular when he becaome FDR's running mate.

Well enough said.

The situation in Italy provided a unique tactical opportunity to encircle and smash a Russian front but that sort of logic doesn't apply in other theaters. France has numerous highly defensible river lines (Aisne Seine Meuse) which would have allowed the Soviets and their communist allies to conduct a brutal long drawn out defensive campaign that Britain certainly didn't have the manpower to overcome.

The point became that after a nice sharp victory in Italy the allies were not in a position of direct intervention that wouldn't result in hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths. Spain and Portugal again fall into the category of easily defensible terrain.

To get the Soviet Union to get back behind the Weser is no small victory after they have come so far... the allies got off rather lucky since Zhukov didn't smash the nationalist chinese or the middle east

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

How is it going to look like in 2010? Red flag over the White House? :D

[The Red]

How is it going to look like in 2010? Red flag over the White House? :D

That's for the reader to decide. :p

[Mirza Khan]

Good, well-written TL! Kudos!

If I must point out a flaw though, the ending was a bit depressing. I'd love to see a TL with this POD where the Russians are less successful in 42 and 43, the allies consolidate their position a little bit more, and Rommel still surrenders to the west with the remnants of the German army in late 43 or early 44, and the Russkies still stab the Allies in the back. And in 1947 or 1948, Patton and Rommel march together into Red Square.

Now THAT would be crazy awesome.:D:cool::cool:

(Sorry for the Necromancy btw-this TL was linked in another thread, and I was originally going to comment in that thread but I didn't want to pull it off topic).

[The Red]

Good, well-written TL! Kudos!

If I must point out a flaw though, the ending was a bit depressing. I'd love to see a TL with this POD where the Russians are less successful in 42 and 43, the allies consolidate their position a little bit more, and Rommel still surrenders to the west with the remnants of the German army in late 43 or early 44, and the Russkies still stab the Allies in the back. And in 1947 or 1948, Patton and Rommel march together into Red Square.

Now THAT would be crazy awesome.:D:cool::cool:

(Sorry for the Necromancy btw-this TL was linked in another thread, and I was originally going to comment in that thread but I didn't want to pull it off topic).

Personally, I think there are too many TL's were the Germans make a peace with the west and they team up to crush the Soviet aggressors, there should be at least one TL where the separate peace with the west by a military junta ends in disaster. :p

[LeoXiao]

I'm bumping this since it's such an awesome TL. I personally think the Soviets would've settled for all of Germany, and that they wouldn't have atom bombs in 1947 (more like 1950s), but the story was very entertaining. I'm interested in seeing what kind of USSR evolves under Zhukov, but this TL is over...

[BlairWitch749]

I'm bumping this since it's such an awesome TL. I personally think the Soviets would've settled for all of Germany, and that they wouldn't have atom bombs in 1947 (more like 1950s), but the story was very entertaining. I'm interested in seeing what kind of USSR evolves under Zhukov, but this TL is over...

This TL was a draft in a way, red and I are both much more developed writers, and have more organized throughts on this matter.

he is busy chasing around cute coeds at uni... and me I have a lot of projects on the front and back burner, and a new baby; so failure before moscow 2 is still some time in the future

glad you enjoyed

[Yelnoc]

Just chewed through this timeline tonight. Well done Blairwitch and The Red!