Historical Misconception Article

[Emperor Norton I]

An idea has struck me recently to deal with a number of historical inaccuracies I see in alternate histories due to historical misconceptions. For example, that Columbus thought the Earth was Flat and was afraid to fall off of the edge of the earth (humanity had known that the Greeks the Earth was round and Columbus and crew were afraid to sail because the seas were deadly and that far out were uncharted making them even more deadly), that McClellan wanted armistice with the South if elected in 1864 (McClellan wanted to continue the war. It was the Democratic party that promoted that as his platform, leading to campaign troubles), Toronto existing back in the Revolution's time, and so forth. The answer to all that being to set up an article in the wiki that listed off all sorts of these incorrect misconceptions. So, I was wondering how much support this idea would have and if we can add onto that list?

[The Kiat]

It was the ignorant peasant masses that thought the world flat. I suppose in today's terminology, Colombus would be called an Elitist.

[Emperor Norton I]

It was the ignorant peasant masses that thought the world flat. I suppose in today's terminology, Colombus would be called an Elitist.

No, almost everybody thought the Earth was round and all scholars and educated men were in agreement on that. The idea that Medieval people thought it was flat or that Columbus' journey set out to prove it was round or ended up proving it was round is a myth concocted by modern literature.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_happened_when_Columbus_said_the_world_is_not_ flat
As a matter of fact.. as far back as 500 B.C. people knew that the earth was round.
Romans had globes..... they just had no knowledge of North and South America.
Eratosthenes of Cyrene 276 BCE - 194 BCE a Greek mathametician calculated the curcumfernence of the Earth (with remarkable accuracy), and the tilt of the earth's axis (again with remarkable accuracy); His measurements of the cucumference of the Earth had an error of less then 1%. And people before hime already knew it was round... they just didn't know the distance until Eratosthenes
They were not ignorant of the round world. The only ones that might have believed in a flat earth were uneducated superstitious people. The popular idea that he was first person to envision a rounded earth is false. The rounded shape of the earth has already been known in ancient times. Jeffrey Russell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Russell) states that the modern view that people of the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) believed that the Earth was flat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth) is said to have entered the popular imagination in the 19th century, thanks largely to the publication of Washington Irving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving)'s fantasy The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_and_Voyages_of_Christopher_Columbus) in 1828.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus#cite_note-Jeffrey_Russell-44) By Columbus's time, educated men were in agreement as to its spherical shape, even if many people believed otherwise. More contentious was the size of the earth, and whether it was possible in practical terms to cross such a vast body of water: the longest any ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship) (European or otherwise) had gone without making landfall did not much exceed 30 days when Columbus embarked on his first audacious voyage lasting 36 days across the Atlantic Ocean (from the Canari Islands).

[Just Leo]

I believe the "flat earth" fits better into "the Church" doctrine of Rome is the center of the universe. The Dark Age had pretty well covered up any prior knowledge of Greek or Roman knowledge, or Persian or Chinese, for that matter. It was all in the library at Alexandria.

[Stephen]

The disagreement Columbus had with the sceptics was the size of the Earth. Columbus thought the sailing distance to Asia wasnt too far the sceptics thought Asia was on the over side of the world futher West than East and they were right! Columbus optimistically used a faulty calculation of the circumference of the Earth when the true size had been known since the Ancient Greeks. He was dmned lucky to of stumbled upon America so he could resuply and sail home.

[pa_dutch]

No, almost everybody thought the Earth was round and all scholars and educated men were in agreement on that.

You realize that both of your sources support his statement, right?


They were not ignorant of the round world. The only ones that might have believed in a flat earth were uneducated superstitious people.

By Columbus's time, educated men were in agreement as to its spherical shape, even if many people believed otherwise.

The educated elite weren't almost everybody.

[Emperor Norton I]

You realize that both of your sources support his statement, right?

The educated elite weren't almost everybody.

It was almost everyone and those say it was almost everyone. Educated men and the general populace believed it. It was not a mass of any class that held such an idea. Science had proved it long before. Nobody in their right mind had any conception of a flat earth, and to say most people did is giving our ancestors far too little credit. And today, it's still almost everyone because you still have skeptics, but, as then, they are a fringe.

The disagreement was not over shape; it was over size.

[MrP]

"curcumfernence...cucumference"

That Wiki answers kerjigger makes me sad.

[MNP]

Wouldn't uneducated superstitious people be the definition of the peasantry/small farmers of Europe at the time? Nothing Emperor Norton posted here disagrees with that.

[Emperor Norton I]

Wouldn't uneducated superstitious people be the definition of the peasantry/small farmers of Europe at the time? Nothing Emperor Norton posted here disagrees with that.

Some may have been un(der)educated and superstitious (which I think many here may over blow in their perception; this is Renaissance Europe, after all, and learning and living standards were booming) , but they weren't knuckle dragging morons as they are attempted to be painted as here, and they knew that the smart folks knew what they were talking about, and the entirety of human theory on this that stated the Earth was round centuries before even the Middle Ages informed them. And keep in mind, superstition among the general populace did not mean a belief that the sun was a monster or solar eclipses were caused by a sky dragon attempting to eat the moon. It meant a belief in God at work within the universe, and some ideas of Alchemy and the paranormal (which, save for alchemy, exist still today among many, so we're not so different in that regard).

When I attempt to give a more specific explanation, you guys try to wedge it open into something larger than it is. If you want a generalization, nobody believed the Earth was flat. If you want a specific, about as many people believed the Earth was flat as do today. They weren't stupid, and they had brains enough to know the Earth was round and proved it by various methods (shadow of Earth on the moon, horizon, etc). The only debate was over the circumference of the Earth. Columbus, for example, believed the world was 1/3 as big as we know it actually is today.

[othyrsyde]

A misconception a lot of people have is that the medieval period was more advanced then antiquity. It's not something specific, but more of a subconscious attitude I've come across; especially those not familiar with history. For the article, maybe throw in some stuff about some tech and science (and just for the record, I'm not talking about Egypt's "electrical lighting system" for their tombs-so the aliens knew where to land, if they couldn't remember the right code for the stargate:D)

[Stephen]

A misconception a lot of people have is that the medieval period was more advanced then antiquity. It's not something specific, but more of a subconscious attitude I've come across; especially those not familiar with history. For the article, maybe throw in some stuff about some tech and science (and just for the record, I'm not talking about Egypt's "electrical lighting system" for their tombs-so the aliens knew where to land, if they couldn't remember the right code for the stargate:D)

Really Ive had more of the impression that people have the misconception that Monty Pythons Holly Grail was an acurate depiction of Medieval life, and underestimate the inteligence of people historians have labeled Barbarians or Dark Ages and they all bathed in mud and couldnt sew or wash. At some point during the High Middle Ages the quality goods produces by armourers and other craftsman certainly does exeed anything produced in antiquity.

[I Blame Communism]

I believe the "flat earth" fits better into "the Church" doctrine of Rome is the center of the universe. The Dark Age had pretty well covered up any prior knowledge of Greek or Roman knowledge, or Persian or Chinese, for that matter. It was all in the library at Alexandria.

Can we put this one in the article?

[Susano]

I know this is potentially more controversional, but what about the myth (planted by himself, of course) that Bismarck had planned for and worked on German unification form the beginning? In truth, the political vision for Prussia he did have had been pretty much fulfilled with the creation of the North German Confederation.

Oh, and a more obvious one, of course: German!=Germanic, and there is no direct continuity betwene the two (other than that Germans fall into the wider Germanic group). And while this misconception is rarer here, it might be good to point out "Germany" wasnt founded in 1870 (or for that matter, that the Second Empire wasnt founded 1871 but indeed 1870).

I know those corrections do all serve my own "ideologcial" if one wants bend, but nontheless those misconceptions exist and are misconceptions ;)

[I Blame Communism]

Oh, and a more obvious one, of course: German!=Germanic, and there is no direct continuity betwene the two (other than that Germans fall into the wider Germanic group). And while this misconception is rarer here, it might be good to point out "Germany" wasnt founded in 1870 (or for that matter, that the Second Empire wasnt founded 1871 but indeed 1870).

You'll be pleased to know that this has been part of my guerilla campaign against the Scottish education system. In a textbook chapter about Anschluss, it said that the idea of "including" Austria in Germany hadn't arisn until the latte 19th C. I footnoted this to the effect that it wasn't excluded until the latter 19th C.

I've pretty consistently spoken up for Germany and Russia, but our textbook stock is a bit eclectic. The treatment of the Upper Silesia question seemed to all be "Some primitive Poles came to the glorious Fatherland to work in the glorious Fatherland's prosperous coal mines, then stole 'em, the treacherous bastards!", in the same textbooks that were misrepresenting Austria in the other direction.

Speaking of which, Wikipedia has classified Austria as part of German-occupied Europe. Ay. Right.

[Susano]

You'll be pleased to know that this has been part of my guerilla campaign against the Scottish education system. In a textbook chapter about Anschluss, it said that the idea of "including" Austria in Germany hadn't arisn until the latte 19th C.
WTF???
(and yes, your campaign sounds very good ;) )

I've pretty consistently spoken up for Germany and Russia, but our textbook stock is a bit eclectic. The treatment of the Upper Silesia question seemed to all be "Some primitive Poles came to the glorious Fatherland to work in the glorious Fatherland's prosperous coal mines, then stole 'em, the treacherous bastards!", in the same textbooks that were misrepresenting Austria in the other direction.
W-T-F???. Yes, mindboggingly eclectic. Of course I guess on the positive side it at least doesnt seem to peddle to any bias, unlike...

Speaking of which, Wikipedia has classified Austria as part of German-occupied Europe. Ay. Right.
...yeah. Its wiki, what does one expect?

[Nicole]

Speaking of which, Wikipedia has classified Austria as part of German-occupied Europe. Ay. Right.
Well, I mean, the Germans did invade the Republic of Austria.

[Beedok]

I saw one textbook that had modern borders, claimed to be 1930 somethin, an labelled East Prussia for the part Russia kept.

[Nicole]

I saw one textbook that had modern borders, claimed to be 1930 somethin, an labelled East Prussia for the part Russia kept.
I've seen a map that had all the other post-WW1 borders correct as far as I could tell- except for the fact that East Prussia was only Kaliningrad Oblast... :confused:

[The Kiat]

I saw one textbook that had modern borders, claimed to be 1930 somethin, an labelled East Prussia for the part Russia kept.


I have a beat up old World Atlas that dates to 1939. Shows Austria and Sudetenland as part of the Reich.

[Susano]

Well, I mean, the Germans did invade the Republic of Austria.

Not really. Its not an invasion fi youre invited in. Granted, invited in by a coupist government, but well, the one that was couped out of office had been dictatorical as well, so...

[Nicole]

Not really. Its not an invasion fi youre invited in. Granted, invited in by a coupist government, but well, the one that was couped out of office had been dictatorical as well, so...
Well, one must admit that, Wiki claims that the invitation telegram was in fact forged by the Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss#Schuschnigg_announces_a_referendum)...

[I Blame Communism]

Well, one must admit that, Wiki claims that the invitation telegram was in fact forged by the Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss#Schuschnigg_announces_a_referendum)...

One must also admit that there was much cheering and waving of flags, and that the Austrians kicked Jews into the street and spat on them with only a little prompting. The plebiscite the Germans held was obviously falsified... and given its result, there's a bit of a margin of error for a German victory.

The important thing is that Austria was basically 100% complicit in Nazi-ism (there were a few brave people in Austria who resisted the regime... just like everywhere else in Germany). I mean, where do you think Adolf Hitler came from? And the "occupation" is diplomatic nonsense. Everyone recognised it before the war. Within days.

Another absurd claim I've seen floating around is that Hitler was an "honorary German" because he "loved the German state and hated the Austrian one". This is to apply the modern situation where Germanness and Austrianness are more-or-less mutually exclusive to the past when they certainly were not. Hitler did not hate "Austria". He hated Vienna, it's true, what with it being a diverse and cultured city full of bad memories and Hapsburg artefacts, but he loved Linz, and was very emotional about bringing it and Austria "back home".

I have a beat up old World Atlas that dates to 1939. Shows Austria and Sudetenland as part of the Reich.

That's completely accurate to 1939.

[Stephen]

The Romans are usually credited with introducing the coulter to Britain but the earliest example of an iron coulter, recorded in northern Europe, was found at the Iron Age fort of Bigbury in Kent. In fact, Pliny noted that the Celtic plough was superior to the Roman type which replaced it.

[jmberry]

On the flat earth thing, whether the Earth was flat or not mattered little in Columbus's day. People still believed you would fall off the edge of the Earth, because what they didn't know about was Gravity.

[Thande]

On the flat earth thing, whether the Earth was flat or not mattered little in Columbus's day. People still believed you would fall off the edge of the Earth, because what they didn't know about was Gravity.

You would fall off the edge of a round Earth?

You haven't thought that one through, have you?

Newton's gravity theory was to explain the fact that 'down' always points towards the centre of the Earth, among other things; obviously people (well, well informed people) have known that that effect exists since at least Greek times.

[Susano]

You would fall off the edge of a round Earth?
Edge might be a misnomer, but its easy enogh to imagine what was meant. Simply imagine a normal ball inside Earths gravity. Something might be able to balance on top of it, but only on top.

Now, if people really believed that is another matter.

[Thande]

Edge might be a misnomer, but its easy enogh to imagine what was meant. Simply imagine a normal ball inside Earths gravity.

But no-one would believe that unless they're the kind of person who never left their village, in which case they might as well think they were on a flat earth. The Greeks and people in the Dark Ages knew well enough about plumb lines and that down was always "straight down" everywhere from the British Isles to Iraq.

[Boto von Ageduch]

In the "Divine Comedy" by Dante, written around 1300, the two heros also drop by at the geocenter (on their way from hell to purgatory). It is described in puzzling detail way how Virgil, Dante's guide, turns around head down while climbing down, only to climb up again towards the surface on the opposite side.

So, I dare say that in the deepest Middle Ages the imagination of what Earth looked like and what gravity does where was pretty accurate among the educated.

[Susano]

In the "Divine Comedy" by Dante, written around 1300, the two heros also drop by at the geocenter (on their way from hell to purgatory). It is described in a puzzlingly detailed way how Virgil, Dante's guide, turns around head down while climbing down, only to climb up again towards the surface on the opposite side.

So, I dare say that in the deepest Middle Ages the imagination of what Earth looked like and what gravity does where was pretty accurate among the educated.
Actually, the 13th century and 14th century are the complete oppopsite of deepets middle ages, what with them being the High Middle Ages :D

[Boto von Ageduch]

Actually, the 13th century and 14th century are the complete oppopsite of deepets middle ages, what with them being the High Middle Ages

Um, I understand "high" and "deep" both in the sense of "essentials".
Are the high seas shallow?
;)

[Emperor Norton I]

There's a page up now in the wikia.