World War Four...the future of the world...

[Hapsburg]

Okay. Here it is.
The fourth world war, sometimes known as the "war against france" or the "second war on nazism" has marked history as one of it's bloodiests conflicts.
Not since the year 1945 has nazism reared itself in such a dangerous form.
After the third world war of 2008-2015, France was severeky weakened by disease. The "New Roman Empire", which is more or less Italy,Slovenia, Croatia, and Hungary combined as one state, offers to Austria-Switzerland, also weakened by war devastation and on the brink of civil war, to join them, as one greater empire. Similar offers are taken by Czechia, Slovaka, and Bosnia. By 2200, the Roman Empire is one of the most powerful nations in Europe.
The new, "fourth" German Empire is a revanchism of Second Reich monarchism, and Poland, the defeated power in WW3, was fully ceded to Germany after 2015.
In the economic confusion and breakdown of alliances, Russia retook the Baltics and Belarus. Sweden retook Finland; and Germany took Denmark and Norway.
By 2200, Rome and France co-rule an are known as the "monaco corridor" which is essentially Provence and Parts of Burgundy. Belgium and Holland unified into one nation, and the royal families of both nations married into each other. The King of Prussia, and Emperor of Germany, Friederich XV, dies in 2215. The world mourns a great man, who held the peace in Europe when France and Rome were at each others throats. His son, the brash but intelligent Friederich XVI, ascends the throne. Tensions increase.
Earlier, in 2201, a Parisian named Jaques Frappe de' Lafeyette comes to power in France as Director of Defense. He becomes Mayor of France in 2202, and sets in his theory of Frenchism as the national policy. He makes France a dictatorship, and in a defiant insult of the U.N, he flies the Swastika on the French Black-White-Blue tricolor.
French troops aid Nazi rebels in Russia and China, helping to form a "nazi alliance". The recently formed Afghaniraqistan nation joins the antisemitic union, forming the four-sided French Axis.
By 2219, relations between the alliances are razor-thin, and Frappe's parading of the new "French 100" tank forces Germany and Rome to build up their armed forces. On November 1st, France attacks the undefended Low Country. Public outcry from the NATO and UN demand war, and the UN replies with sanctions and tossing France out of the UN. Other members of the French Axis are also thrown out. On December 2nd, French troops occupy the Monaco Corridor. Tensions finally break on December 25, 2219, when French superbombers, bearing the swastika on thier tail, drop four nuclear bombs on Hawaii, owned since 2110 by Rome. Simutaneously, French troops cross the Rhine and enter Germany. Troops also proceed into Italy. Russian tanks cross into German Poland and Livonia. Japan and China prepare for war, and Islamic Troops occupy eastern Palestine. The Greco-Turk Emperor prepared defenes along the borders, and the Romanian Royal Army built up thier line on the Russian border, the "Tepes Line".
The war began...

So, whad'ya think? Too ASB, or possible if certain things happen in the future?

[Melvin Loh]

Hapsburg, there was a 1980s movie called THE 4TH WAR, which was set between rival US (played by F. Murray Abraham IIRC) and Soviet cdrs in Germany during the Cold War, where there was a voiceover towards the film's end stating that the 4th war would be fought with sticks and stones after the nuclear armageddon of WWIII.

[Grey Wolf]

I had a dream about the 4th World War once. Bon Jovi were being dragged away into a van, still playing their instruments as missiles landed in the distance, and all of us standing by the river knew that the end was nigh...

Grey Wolf

[Hapsburg]

'kay.
doesn't help me any.
answer my question...
is it interesting or not?
is is slightly possible or not?



p.s)the war is from December 25, 2219 to July 5, 2230

[JLCook]

Specificlly, how does "ROME" come to have possession of Hawaii.

Also, I don't think it would take 200 years for a megalomaniac fascist to come to power in France.

Personally, I think that future power blocs will include:

1.) The United States (of North AMerica)

2.) China (which includes Japan, Korea, Indochina,Phillipine)

3) Russia (with the Baltics, Ukraine, Belarus reabsorbed)

4.) India (plus whatever parts of SE ASia not Chinese)

5.) The Islamic Union (The usual suspects)

6.) The Union of South America (That is to say, everything south of panama)

7.) The Franco-German Empire(plus whomever can be coerced)

Currant, European countries altogether lack the population base to really ever rediscover superpowerdom. A completely unified, monolithic Europe? would have the size and power, but they have such long, historical squabbles that it does seem ludicrous. Additionally, Europeans currantly tax themselves so silly to provide for social welfare spending, that they can't afford to buy enough weapons systems to defend themselves, let alone threaten anyone else! Kind of hard to be a "superpower" when NO ONE takes you seriously, in spite of fond (French) delusions of Granduer!

[Hapsburg]

I should have explained it better, even though it is quite obvious.
Between the founding of the NRE in the 2009 Monarchist Revolution in italy and 2219, Italy grabs Slovienia, Croatia, and buys Hawaii from the U.S.
Canada buys Alaska from the U.S in 2167 after most of the oil had been drilled out by american companies.
you have a point about the french nazis coming to power. ah, well, something happens that delays it.
by the 2200s, most of european nations have grown back into superpowerdom, and blah.
India was does become a superpower of sorts.
but, japan and china hate each a...hell of a lot, to say the least.
You are forgetting Africa.
By this time, most of the african regions are formed into large unions. North Africa, West Africa, South Africa, Central Africa, and Ethiopia (east africa).
Especially Central Africa, these supernations becomes quite rich and powerful by trade and play a part in the war.

[Hapsburg]

Here's the map of Europe at 2201, when Frappe' comes to power.

[Matt]

buys Hawaii from the U.S.
Canada buys Alaska from the U.S in 2167

The US decides to SELL two US STATES? I'm sorry but besides the other probelms already pointed out, the US selling states is about as likely as GB selling Canada to the US in the 1800s.

[David S Poepoe]

The US decides to SELL two US STATES? I'm sorry but besides the other probelms already pointed out, the US selling states is about as likely as GB selling Canada to the US in the 1800s.

Fairly standard and poorly written premise. Absolutely appalling. A Greco-Turkish Empire? Hell no. The two nations are highly unlikely to ever join together in anything besides combat. And, good heavens, let the Holy Roman Empire, or the New Roman Empire, remain dead.

[Matt]

Yeah..... some things are just best left uncommented on.

French Nazis :rolleyes:

You can certainly have French Facists. But by definition a group of ultra-right French Conservatives nationialists well not want to name themselves after the group that handed them their most humiliating defeat.

[Nik]

Since everyone west of the Arals ( except Swiss & Scand ;-) are jumping to join EU, please devise a scenario to fragment that, first...

Remember, adding the former Soviet states and Turkey opens up a significant population resource.

[Hapsburg]

Oaky, to clear up you annoying whinings:
The 2188 depression in the US severely crippled the economy. Even by 2200, the economy is still screwed up. they decide to sell two of their states for a large sum of money to help boost the economy. it seemed like a good tradeoff...

Greco-Turkish empire is a misleading name. its entirely under the control of the Greek Emperor in Athens. The name just makes the subjugated turks happy or else.

Holy Roman Empire? Please, my ass. The new Roman Emperor is an athiest, and the Vatican is abolished. HRE? Hell no, its now the NRE.

French fascists/nazis?- Well, Frappe is antisemitic, and is different than the "fascists" in that he glorifies the nazis, just not hitler. he believes the himself is the true "fuhrer" of the nazis, and thats why hitlers germany fell.
of course, he's nuts. but that clears up your whining about it.

hope that helped clear up problems.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Well,

A)How does a royalist uprising succeed in Italy?
B)Where does all this nationalism come from? I used to think that could still do this type of stuff, and then I realized that they've lost all sense of nationalism.
C)How is Europe saved from irrelevancy in the next 50 years? Their problems are not going to be fixed anytime soon.
D)I agree, the US is not going to be selling anybody, anything. If we are in a depression, it's very likely everybody else is too, and therefore it is highly unlikely anybody has the resources to buy land.
E)As for the Third World War, by 2015, it doesn't matter what happened today, a Third World War involving Europe fighting itself is impossible. They have neither the armies, nor the force projection to call it a world war. Besides the United States is not going to be destroying Europe, as that would damage our economy far beyond any political gain. Suppose we are fighting Russia then. Well there is no way Poland is fighting with Russia. Ever. Poland would stand alone against Russia rather than fight with them.

[DocOrlando]

I agree with the unlikelihood of both 1) rampant nationalism and 2) rampant national mergers. I won't even touch ASB territory like "Greco-Turkish" anything and the sale of US states -- states, mind you, not even territories! -- because it's just silly.

If there's going to be any kind of sociopolitical backlash in Europe, it will go in the opposite direction of amalgamated states. To the contrary, the dissolution of the EU, and of any member states, would probably lead toward localization... a return to more provincial control. I see Europe being ripe for alliances of convenience between principalities.

Additionally, based on the sparse history presented, I wouldn't expect either NATO or the UN to be present at the time of the hostilities of your "fourth would war."

This isn't AH, either...just future speculation.

[Hapsburg]

Well,

A)How does a royalist uprising succeed in Italy?
B)Where does all this nationalism come from? I used to think that could still do this type of stuff, and then I realized that they've lost all sense of nationalism.
C)How is Europe saved from irrelevancy in the next 50 years? Their problems are not going to be fixed anytime soon.
D)I agree, the US is not going to be selling anybody, anything. If we are in a depression, it's very likely everybody else is too, and therefore it is highly unlikely anybody has the resources to buy land.
E)As for the Third World War, by 2015, it doesn't matter what happened today, a Third World War involving Europe fighting itself is impossible. They have neither the armies, nor the force projection to call it a world war. Besides the United States is not going to be destroying Europe, as that would damage our economy far beyond any political gain. Suppose we are fighting Russia then. Well there is no way Poland is fighting with Russia. Ever. Poland would stand alone against Russia rather than fight with them.

A) coup de e'tat.
B) renewed nationalist feelings in the 2100s.
C) fifty years? theres about 215 years between now and the 4th WW. think of something.
D) there is a such thing as other countries having economies, you know.
E) wtf do you mean, russia vs poland? In the 3rd WW its Russia, Poland, China, the Usual Suspects (mideast) and for some reason Morrocco vs UK, thier colonies, and the rest of the EU, plus Japan and Thailand later on. Poland starts the war after a politician takes power, polish pride sets in, and the military builds up. the US gets involved later on...

forget ww3, ww4 is the thing here.

[Matt]

A) coup de e'tat.
B) renewed nationalist feelings in the 2100s.
C) fifty years? theres about 215 years between now and the 4th WW. think of something.
D) there is a such thing as other countries having economies, you know.
E) wtf do you mean, russia vs poland? In the 3rd WW its Russia, Poland, China, the Usual Suspects (mideast) and for some reason Morrocco vs UK, thier colonies, and the rest of the EU, plus Japan and Thailand later on. Poland starts the war after a politician takes power, polish pride sets in, and the military builds up. the US gets involved later on...

forget ww3, ww4 is the thing here.


Well your WW4 is implausible without some explaination. Bulg was talking about how in your WW3 there is no way in hell Poland would side with Russia. The Cold War is over. Deal with it.

[eschaton]

What british colonies exist at WW3?

Is technology any different given 200 years?

[Bulgaroktonos]

A) coup de e'tat.
B) renewed nationalist feelings in the 2100s.
C) fifty years? theres about 215 years between now and the 4th WW. think of something.
D) there is a such thing as other countries having economies, you know.
E) wtf do you mean, russia vs poland? In the 3rd WW its Russia, Poland, China, the Usual Suspects (mideast) and for some reason Morrocco vs UK, thier colonies, and the rest of the EU, plus Japan and Thailand later on. Poland starts the war after a politician takes power, polish pride sets in, and the military builds up. the US gets involved later on...

forget ww3, ww4 is the thing here.

A)I'll grant you some kind of coup de etat
B)To have a WWIII by 2008, you need a MASSIVE INFLUX of national pride otherwise nobody is going to fight.
C)You have a WWIII in 2008. They are under no circumstances going to be able to fight a World War by 2050. Personally, I think Europe has gone down the road of irrelevance and won't ever again rise to this position of power.
D)Not in a world of globalized economics. If one country goes down, the others are going to follow. Great Depression ring a bell?
E)Exactly my point. There is no way Poland is going to fight alongside Russia. None. And certainly not by 2008. A German invasion would only produce debate amongst the Poles as to whether the Russians were going to invade them again.

WWIV is irrelevant if WWIII is totally unexplained.

[Diamond]

answer my question...
is it interesting or not?
No.

is is slightly possible or not?

No.

[Hapsburg]

british islands in the indies. ever hear of naval warfare?
:rolleyes:

Surprisingly, no. it stays relatively the same...
no war = stagnant tech.

without war in the 2100s, theres no necissity to invent things. tech changes little. things get more efficient, but thats about it.

[Hapsburg]

okay, bulgar...
ill bite...

WORLD WAR 3
happens in 2066-2070
more time for crap to happen...


oh, and poland and russia not fighting alongside...
ever hear of a dictator?
poland gets one before ww3.
and its not germany that invades...
its poland that attacks germany and austria.
listen next time.

[das]

I agree with the above post, sadly. RUSSIAN EMPIRE? Yeah, right...

Also, did anyone ever tell you you don't seem to like the French very much?

[Matt]

british islands in the indies. ever hear of naval warfare?
:rolleyes:

Surprisingly, no. it stays relatively the same...
no war = stagnant tech.

without war in the 2100s, theres no necissity to invent things. tech changes little. things get more efficient, but thats about it.


This whole thing has me scratching my head. Tech doesn't advance because there's no war? The IR wasn't caused by a War. The Advances in the late 20th C wasn't cause by a War. Quite to the contary. Wars are harmful in the long term for economies..

[Hapsburg]

who said russian empire?
its still federation...until 2205, and the nazi coup de e'tat

and i thought of this when anti-french feelings were high amongst us.
i still am. just not as much.

[Bulgaroktonos]

its poland that attacks germany and austria.
listen next time.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was postulating that even if the Germans invaded Poland, the Polish would only sit around and debate rather than ally with the Russians.....

[Matt]

who said russian empire?
its still federation...until 2205, and the nazi coup de e'tat

and i thought of this when anti-french feelings were high amongst us.
i still am. just not as much.



NAZI'S IN CHARGE OF RUSSIA!?!!?!

Okay... I can point out at least one thing wrong with that..

hint: It's laid out in Mein Kampf

[Wozza]

The whole idea looks fairly wacky I am afraid.
1.In fact it is more a projection of the past than the future.

2.Technology is driven by capitalism and/or war.

3. This future seems to take no account of existing trends - especially demographic ones. It does not event assess how existing trends may be reversed by the usual reactions too them - for example what will happen when Europe sees the increasing problems caused by its attachment to a social democratic model.

[Hapsburg]

This whole thing has me scratching my head. Tech doesn't advance because there's no war? The IR wasn't caused by a War. The Advances in the late 20th C wasn't cause by a War. Quite to the contary. Wars are harmful in the long term for economies..

jet power and combat aircraft developed from necissity in war.

in the 2100s theres just simply no necessity for it.
also you have a point.
the middleages = constant warfare = no tech change for centuries?
2100 = no tech change?

it changes a little. how about that, will that shut ya up about it?
*exhaustion*

[Bulgaroktonos]

Number 3 is basically summarizing my entire argument with this post.

[Matt]

Hold on I'm waiting for the explaination of the Nazi Russians.

[Hapsburg]

NAZI'S IN CHARGE OF RUSSIA!?!!?!

Okay... I can point out at least one thing wrong with that..

hint: It's laid out in Mein Kampf

well, im not a nazi, so ive never read mein kampf...

but, its a coup d'etat. anyone can seize power in a coup d'etat.
its not like russia's been ruled by anti-russians before tho, ever hear of Tsar Peter III?

[Bulgaroktonos]

Okay, well,

A)Coups need popular support in at least the population or the military. Otherwise they have no legitimacy
B)If Mein Kampf and World War II are any indicators, Nazis don't like Slavs very much.
C)Therefore, B precludes A...

[Hapsburg]

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was postulating that even if the Germans invaded Poland, the Polish would only sit around and debate rather than ally with the Russians.....

like i said...
DICTATOR!!
THE COMMON FOLK HAVE NO SAY IN A DICTATORSHIP!!!!
It's not hard to comprehend.

[Diamond]

Hey Hapsburg: Why do you have to be so fucking rude, sarcastic, and antagonistic in nearly every post:


Oaky, to clear up you annoying whinings
Holy Roman Empire? Please, my ass.
that clears up your whining about it.
fifty years? theres about 215 years between now and the 4th WW. think of something.
there is a such thing as other countries having economies, you know.
ever hear of naval warfare? :rolleyes:
listen next time.
it changes a little. how about that, will that shut ya up about it?
*exhaustion*
It's not hard to comprehend.
In short, what is your problem?

[Bulgaroktonos]

Good God man!

I'm not saying the Germans invade!

I'm saying that the hatred for the Russians is so intense in Poland, that even if the Germans invaded Poland tomorrow, in a TL totally unrelated from yours, it would only produce debate within Poland surrounding the actions of Russia.

As for Dictators, they need some legitimacy or they are fucked. If you explain why he has power, why people like him, and how the people manage to stomach siding with Russia, then fine.

[Matt]

Well the thing is with anyone avowing to be a Nazi is the west. It's a good way to get you ostrasized from public life. To say that a open Nazi can seize power in Russia(or France) when Hitler had opennly talked about how Slavs(and to a lesser extent the French!) are uttermensh, thus worthy of only enslavement or death. A population would never ever allow it. EVER.

[Hapsburg]

as for russian nazis...
there are plenty of neonazis in russia these day. even more than in germany or the US.
if theres enough backwoods anti-semites in russia, a nazi coup d'etat may happen. esp. in the early 2200s and Frappe sending french SpecOps troops for support...

[DocOrlando]

No offense meant to any Poles around here, but...

Poland is irrelevant. Poland has been irrelevant since 1940, the exceptions being its targetable infrastructure in a late 20th century armored war and its contribution of a recently-deceased Cardinal of Krakow.

Nobility in Europe is equally irrelevant.

There are easier ways to get to an anti-semitic fascist France. In truth, we're probably only a decade away from an anti-semitic fascist France.

The world is moving toward homogeneity and away from unilateral aggression, with only a few remaining relics of the old way. As a result, the very likelihood of a third world war has shrunk to almost nil. And as someone else pointed out, you can't have WW4 without WW3.

If you want a dictator to rise to power, he's going to have to come out of someplace far less notable than even Central Europe. The world is not populated by uneducated sheep who are easily manipulated; too much has changed in the past 50 years. There will always be a sliver of the people who will support ultranationalists, but I don't believe it will ever be enough to propel those candidates into office, or, in case of a coup, to allow them to retain power for long.

[Matt]

When I was 13 I concocted a scenerio where Great Britain and the United States would goto war around the turn of the century. I even had GB invading Northern Virgina and the DC area. It was alot of fun in my 13 year old imagination.

But it's totally impossible. I didnt grasp the economics, the demographics, the political landscape, etc. It's clear that this is the same sort of fantasy here....

[Hapsburg]

Good God man!

I'm not saying the Germans invade!

I'm saying that the hatred for the Russians is so intense in Poland, that even if the Germans invaded Poland tomorrow, in a TL totally unrelated from yours, it would only produce debate within Poland surrounding the actions of Russia.

As for Dictators, they need some legitimacy or they are fucked. If you explain why he has power, why people like him, and how the people manage to stomach siding with Russia, then fine.

military supports him. population is ruthlessly suppressed. builds on Polish nationalism, mainly stating that poland and russia fought agains the same enemy in WW2: germany. it is also on this basis that poland invades germany in ww3, which i new reset to start in 2066.

[Wozza]

as for russian nazis...
there are plenty of neonazis in russia these day. even more than in germany or the US.
if theres enough backwoods anti-semites in russia, a nazi coup d'etat may happen. esp. in the early 2200s and Frappe sending french SpecOps troops for support...

By the time this thread is set there won't be much of anyone in Russia except Moslems
somebody please explain how that trend changes please (as it could0

"especially in the 2200s" sums up exactly why this thread is so mad. The only thing especially likely to be happening the 2200s is something none of us has any hope of imagining accept through accidenta, monkeyonatypewriter guess

[Matt]

as for russian nazis...
there are plenty of neonazis in russia these day. even more than in germany or the US.
if theres enough backwoods anti-semites in russia, a nazi coup d'etat may happen. esp. in the early 2200s and Frappe sending french SpecOps troops for support...

By the time this thread is set there won't be much of anyone in Russia except Moslems
somebody please explain how that trend changes please (as it could0

"especially in the 2200s" sums up exactly why this thread is so mad. The only thing especially likely to be happening the 2200s is something none of us has any hope of imagining accept through accidenta, monkeyonatypewriter guess


Wozza thank you for pointing that point about Russia out, I had completely forgotten about it. Hapsburg Russia has a NEGATIVE POPULATION GROWTH... meaning it's population is actually shrinking. That's generally bad for not only economies, but for raising large armies and waging war.

[Bulgaroktonos]

No offense meant to any Poles around here, but...

Poland is irrelevant. Poland has been irrelevant since 1940, the exceptions being its targetable infrastructure in a late 20th century armored war and its contribution of a recently-deceased Cardinal of Krakow.

Nobility in Europe is equally irrelevant.

There are easier ways to get to an anti-semitic fascist France. In truth, we're probably only a decade away from an anti-semitic fascist France.

The world is moving toward homogeneity and away from unilateral aggression, with only a few remaining relics of the old way. As a result, the very likelihood of a third world war has shrunk to almost nil. And as someone else pointed out, you can't have WW4 without WW3.

If you want a dictator to rise to power, he's going to have to come out of someplace far less notable than even Central Europe. The world is not populated by uneducated sheep who are easily manipulated; too much has changed in the past 50 years. There will always be a sliver of the people who will support ultranationalists, but I don't believe it will ever be enough to propel those candidates into office, or, in case of a coup, to allow them to retain power for long.

While I agree the vast majority of your post, I'm still not sold on the prevention of World War III. Maybe not on the global scale of the last, but certainly as regards the local scale.....

[Leo Caesius]

Wozza thank you for pointing that point about Russia out, I had completely forgotten about it. Hapsburg Russia has a NEGATIVE POPULATION GROWTH... meaning it's population is actually shrinking. That's generally bad for not only economies, but for raising large armies and waging war.In fact it's plunging like a meteorite; the Economist suggested recently that, judging by the demographics, Russia is in the process of committing suicide...

[Hapsburg]

like I said...
the primarily right-wing military and Frappe's skilled foreign legion.
then, the dicator of russia keeps the pop. in line.
think KGB, but more ruthless.

[Bulgaroktonos]

When I was 13 I concocted a scenerio where Great Britain and the United States would goto war around the turn of the century. I even had GB invading Northern Virgina and the DC area. It was alot of fun in my 13 year old imagination.

But it's totally impossible. I didnt grasp the economics, the demographics, the political landscape, etc. It's clear that this is the same sort of fantasy here....

I did the exact same thing!

Nowadays, Britain just burns stuff a lot, while the United States takes Canada.

[Hapsburg]

Wozza thank you for pointing that point about Russia out, I had completely forgotten about it. Hapsburg Russia has a NEGATIVE POPULATION GROWTH... meaning it's population is actually shrinking. That's generally bad for not only economies, but for raising large armies and waging war.
theres 215 years between now and then. some kind of population spurt happens in the 2100s.

[Matt]

In fact it's plunging like a meteorite; the Economist suggested recently that, judging by the demographics, Russia is in the process of committing suicide...


Pushing the flames aside for a second...

Is it really that bad in Russia Leo? As much as I loathe the Economist, do you have a linky?

[Wozza]

Off topic:
Bulgaroktonos: I like the name
but what makes you thinkyou can fill the Slayer's shoes?

[Matt]

theres 215 years between now and then. some kind of population spurt happens in the 2100s.


Explain this


Why would there be a population "spurt"?

(A population explosion would probably be needed...)

[DocOrlando]

military supports him. population is ruthlessly suppressed. builds on Polish nationalism, mainly stating that poland and russia fought agains the same enemy in WW2: germany. it is also on this basis that poland invades germany in ww3, which i new reset to start in 2066.

You're not going to have the rank-and-file military supporting a dictator if the population is ruthlessly suppressed. You can't have successful nationalism and a repressed citizenry. Even Hitler knew this.

Poland invades Germany. Heh. Maybe in the 19th century.

[Leo Caesius]

Pushing the flames aside for a second...

Is it really that bad in Russia Leo? As much as I loathe the Economist, do you have a linky?Here's more information than you could possibly want, courtesy of Hendryk and Doctor What: [link (http://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=6294&page=1)].

[DocOrlando]

Bulgaroktonos --

Well, I did say almost nil! Although WW3 because of a Polish invasion of Germany is infinitesimally long odds.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Off topic:
Bulgaroktonos: I like the name
but what makes you thinkyou can fill the Slayer's shoes?

Humble old me? While certainly I cannot aspire to the level of "diplomatic" greatness achieved by dear old Basil, most of my ATL countries have a certain mean streak to them. As MBarry about Imperial Russia of ME6.0

My name is more in honor of Basil, rather than trying to usurp him.....

Thanks for the recognition :)

[Bulgaroktonos]

Bulgaroktonos --

Well, I did say almost nil! Although WW3 because of a Polish invasion of Germany is infinitesimally long odds.

Oh, well yeah, A Polish invasion of anything is long odds.

[Hapsburg]

okay, barry- yeah, sure, why not? population explosion in the 2100s.

Orlando - ever heard of the USSR? they ruthlessly repressed the population, even using the military.
Poland invades only after they get stronger and Germany gets weaker. Even then, they get repulsed easily. Its only Russia that stops Poland from collapsing early.

i could have ww3 in the 2100s...
would ya'll stop whining about ww3, and start about ww4 then?

[Matt]

I did the exact same thing!

Nowadays, Britain just burns stuff a lot, while the United States takes Canada.


Must be why we're intersted in AH :D

I had all types of crazy things, like British carriers operating in the Potomic, no nukes being used, the inevitable USA counter attack... all without adequetly explaining why the US and GB would be fighting in 2000.

Leo: Wow.... just wow....

Hapsburg: IF you're serious about this FH, read that link, it's looking really bad for Russia. If trends continue, its going to lose half of its population by 2050.

[Hapsburg]

Okay then...
population boom in the 2060s, and WW3 happening in 2130-2133

[Bulgaroktonos]

[QUOTE=Hapsburg]

Orlando - ever heard of the USSR? they ruthlessly repressed the population, even using the military.
QUOTE]

Yeah, but they didn't have very much nationalism.....

There is a great joke from Russia in the 1980s.

The teacher tells the Soviet school children about the great wealth of the USSR and how everybody has everything they need and everybody is happy.

At the back of the class, a kid bursts out crying.

The Teacher asks, "Ivan, whats wrong?"

Ivan says, "I just wish I lived in the USSR!"

[Hapsburg]

bulgar, you arent docorlando.
dont answer his questions for him. its rude.

[Wozza]

"Population boom"

why??
how??

History happens forwards, not backwards
that is why good alternate history has value

[Hapsburg]

i dunno...think of something.
damn, do i have to do all the work, lazy...*mumbles*

[DocOrlando]

No, because we haven't picked you apart enough.

The only reason the Soviet Union successfully prosecuted WW2 to the extent that they did was that they were invaded first. They were under mortal threat from Germany. Defending the homeland was a powerful motivator. Of course, so was Stalin threatening to shoot anyone who fled the front lines.

But, again, this was 60 years ago, and the world is a very different place. Russia also had sheer numbers on its side, something Poland -- even Poland 60 years from now -- isn't going to have.

Any crisis that causes Germany to weaken will weaken all of Europe. The EU is too bound to each other.

[Diamond]

bulgar, you arent docorlando.
dont answer his questions for him. its rude.
That's the pot calling the kettle black...

i dunno...think of something.
damn, do i have to do all the work, lazy...*mumbles*
Because it's YOUR timeline!

[Hapsburg]

i know, it was a sarcastic remark, diamond.
have a sense of humor...

[Wozza]

Hapsburg
I think you may hae to leave this one as ASBs...

Valiant effort though

[Hapsburg]

No, because we haven't picked you apart enough.

The only reason the Soviet Union successfully prosecuted WW2 to the extent that they did was that they were invaded first. They were under mortal threat from Germany. Defending the homeland was a powerful motivator. Of course, so was Stalin threatening to shoot anyone who fled the front lines.

But, again, this was 60 years ago, and the world is a very different place. Russia also had sheer numbers on its side, something Poland -- even Poland 60 years from now -- isn't going to have.

Any crisis that causes Germany to weaken will weaken all of Europe. The EU is too bound to each other.

No E.U in the 2100s. WW3 now takes places 2130-2133.
E.U splits apart between 2070 and 2120. Germany and Austria want a larger share...Britain wants thier empire again...France wants to ressurect the "glory of napoleon" and just standard European differences.
Happy?

[Hapsburg]

Hapsburg
I think you may hae to leave this one as ASBs...

Valiant effort though

dont insult me.

[Othniel]

There is a difference between patronizing and insulting. You simply haven't done the reasearch required to make this plausible, and on this board that gets you ripped apart.

[Hapsburg]

i am about ready to jump into the computer, pop out the other end, and rip you head off with my bare hands, if it were physically possible.

I told you, I did this idea several years ago as a pitch for a movie.
I've explained the things, you all are just not recognizing my statements.

[DocOrlando]

Moreover, as I pointed out earlier, this isn't "alternate" history, it's supposition, and wild supposition at that. If you haven't noticed, much of the appreciation found in AH -- and history in general! -- by its devotees is due to studying how one thing leads to another. By setting all of this in the future, with little to no thought as to how your world gets from where we are now to where we are then, you've given us nothing but a bad 50s-era comic book story. Furthermore, with your completely arbitrary timeline (World War 3 gets around, doesn't it?) it's gone from merely thin to simply sloppy, and only further demonstrates your lack of forethought.

[Matt]

i am about ready to jump into the computer, pop out the other end, and rip you head off with my bare hands, if it were physically possible.

I told you, I did this idea several years ago as a pitch for a movie.
I've explained the things, you all are just not recognizing my statements.


Post a bad Timeline, expect negative critisms, especially after you ignore us or berate us for it. If this is a few years old, I suggest massive revisions. Right now it had all the coherancy of Invasion USA. A good way to get suggestions is a map thread, with a brief explaination of whats going one. Nothing more then A is at war with B. The folks here would be more then willing to fill in the blanks for you, in order to get a more plausible FH.

And apparently you have learned absolutly nothing from your temparory kicking....

[Hapsburg]

i have.
i just dont like it when people insult or purposely aggravate me!
like you are doing now!

fill in the blanks with questions, and i will provide answers.

[Othniel]

Do your reasearch. I'd like to see the revised version of this TL.

[Hapsburg]

even though you just said that it should be destroyed.

tell me what exactly is wrong with it, and i will provide statements to clarify them.

[Othniel]

No I'm saying that you can't back this up with facts. If you could convince a single person here it was plausible, I'd take this more seriously. I also said that it was being torn piece by piece because of the impluasiblity, I didn't say that it should be destroyed but rather revised so that it acualty can stand up to scurtiny. People will analyze something to death here if you aren't careful with your facts. Of corse its the only way you can get an audience.....

[DocOrlando]

Dude. We've been doing that all morning. Go back and re-read the thread without taking it all personally. Come up with logical solutions for some of our disputed points, and you'll be well on your way. But just moving WW3 up or down the timeline doesn't solve anything. You've got to address the root causes of the events you want to occur.

[Hapsburg]

if it needs to be revised, then help me revise it...
by doing what i said to do, and point out the individual things that fault it....
i dont like repeating myself, so just...

[Diamond]

I'm obviously not a mind reader, but it seems to me as if you think just because this is a future history (which technically doesn't belong on an AH forum anyway), it's an excuse to be lazy and implausible.

Just because all the events take place in the future, it's no excuse for not explaining WHY they happen. It's just ridiculous to say something along the lines of 'oh, there's 215 years in between now and then, something happened to make it possible', and then get mad when we don't buy it. And then to turn around and ask us to fill in the blanks for you after you've insulted us for trying to point out holes in your 'timeline'... I just don't get you.

[Hapsburg]

you're not supposed to get me.
you were originally to guess and speculate on what happens after 2219, not before.
but you just had to whine...

[Othniel]

First off:

Austria-Switzerland? Explain how that came to be. Give us treaties, wars, economic collaspes, whatever nessarcy and in detail. This I gotta understand...

[Hapsburg]

I should've put Austria & Switzerland, but i hit the wrong shift-number button.

[Diamond]

you're not supposed to get me.
you were originally to guess and speculate on what happens after 2219, not before.
but you just had to whine...
See, that's what I'm talking about. :rolleyes:

[Hapsburg]

if you dont get me, diamond, just leave me alone.

[DocOrlando]

How are we to guess and speculate about what happens after 2215 if we don't know what happened BEFORE 2215? We could guess, sure, but then what happens when you come back and say, "Yeah, but Mexico couldn't invade Saudi Arabia in 2219, because the Atlantic Ocean evaporated in 2180, leaving Mexico's blue water navy worthless."

This all stinks of Rick Berman.

[Hapsburg]

got a point.

so, ask me.
whats wrong SPECIFICALLY!!!
i ask ya to do it, then i tell ya to do it, but ya still dont do it...i dont get you guys.

[Othniel]

I should've put Austria & Switzerland, but i hit the wrong shift-number button.
Why would Switzerland give up it's indpenance then? They are supremely nationalist, and would do anything possible to keep that sovreignity. Unless something drastic happens, Switzerland will do anything to keep their nuetrality. Their orders concerning Nazi Germany were insane and I have to know how you got them to join a Union. But still, continue in the direction of how New Rome got them. I mean in painful detail. Not just a war happend but something through.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Okay Hapsburg, lets start with nationalism.

Why does nationalism restart in Europe? What is the socio-political atmosphere that allows such a turn around?

You might go with a resurgent, more popular Islamic Radicalism. It systematically attacks various countries in Europe. Perhaps if it is close to an election, a party like the BNP comes to power. Highly conservative, very nationalistic, you might be able to work with something like that. It's not perfect, but that's the general idea.

You need to have some reason for things to happen. Russia can't just have a population boom. You need to have a growing industrialization or the period after a long successful war, or perhaps ever increasing wealth (but not super-wealthy, like OTL US and Europe which has declining growth rates).

[Hapsburg]

After WW3 and the economic crashes in the 2160s, Switzerland is a nation on the brink of civil war. As with Austria, their economy and military collapse, and thier government is essentially shut down.
Civil war begins, with each canton being split itself between the various politcal ideoligies and military districts.
In the confusion, Roman troops cross the border, and suppress the various splinter groups in a bloody campaign in 2185-2190. In 2192, Switzerland is officially annexed into the Roman Empire. The military police remind the people in former switzerland to thier obligation, as a former roman territory in the early centuries, to the New Roman Empire.
Austria goes a similar way, but takes longer due to Austria's larger size.

[Leo Caesius]

Love the timeline. I have a few questions:

What's the status of the Confederacy in this TL?
I see that both the Greco-Turk Empire and Palestine are fighting against "Islamic" troops. Am I right in assuming that Islam has been wiped out of both of these places? Is there still time to wipe Islam out completely (presumably out of its stronghold in Afghaniraqistan)?
Why is the capital of the Greco-Turk Empire in Athens? Surely it must be in Constantinople. The laws of allohistorical inevitability demand this.
Is a member of the Bush family still in charge of the US? What's happening with the US, anyway? Has it invaded Canada yet?
Why aren't there any Neo-Commies to balance out the Neo-Nazis? I think you need to throw some in. That way we can have a nice debate as to which is worse.
I'm sure others will come to my mind, but let's start with these.

[Faeelin]

Leo, you are an evil, evil man.

[Hapsburg]

Okay Hapsburg, lets start with nationalism.

Why does nationalism restart in Europe? What is the socio-political atmosphere that allows such a turn around?

You might go with a resurgent, more popular Islamic Radicalism. It systematically attacks various countries in Europe. Perhaps if it is close to an election, a party like the BNP comes to power. Highly conservative, very nationalistic, you might be able to work with something like that. It's not perfect, but that's the general idea.

You need to have some reason for things to happen. Russia can't just have a population boom. You need to have a growing industrialization or the period after a long successful war, or perhaps ever increasing wealth (but not super-wealthy, like OTL US and Europe which has declining growth rates).

generally, in pre-ww3 poland, the military are generally right-wing and anit-german. feelings left over from ww2...
the Polish dictator, who takes power in 2127, goes on a base of "russia and we both fought against germany in ww2, why not be allies with russia?" and builds up the military. the feelings radiate out from the leader to the general populace.
the population boom in russia is the real problem...
ill get back to ya on that one.

[Peter]

Fairly standard and poorly written premise. Absolutely appalling. A Greco-Turkish Empire? Hell no. The two nations are highly unlikely to ever join together in anything besides combat. And, good heavens, let the Holy Roman Empire, or the New Roman Empire, remain dead.

Well we call it the EU these days.

[Hapsburg]

Love the timeline. I have a few questions:
[list]
What's the status of the Confederacy in this TL?
what confederacy?

I see that both the Greco-Turk Empire and Palestine are fighting against "Islamic" troops. Am I right in assuming that Islam has been wiped out of both of these places? Is there still time to wipe Islam out completely (presumably out of its stronghold in Afghaniraqistan)?
no.

Why is the capital of the Greco-Turk Empire in Athens? Surely it must be in Constantinople. The laws of allohistorical inevitability demand this.
No...Greece's capitol in modern day is in Athens. Why would it be different if greece control turkey?

Is a member of the Bush family still in charge of the US? What's happening with the US, anyway? Has it invaded Canada yet?
no and no.

Why aren't there any Neo-Commies to balance out the Neo-Nazis? I think you need to throw some in. That way we can have a nice debate as to which is worse.
Oh there is, but its more "behind the scenes" and "in the alleys"

[Bulgaroktonos]

generally, in pre-ww3 poland, the military are generally right-wing and anit-german. feelings left over from ww2...
the Polish dictator, who takes power in 2127, goes on a base of "russia and we both fought against germany in ww2, why not be allies with russia?" and builds up the military. the feelings radiate out from the leader to the general populace.
the population boom in russia is the real problem...
ill get back to ya on that one.

Okay, well, we're kinda getting somewhere. However,

A)Poland hates Russia far more than the Germans. Perhaps a POD would be the West actually supports the AK in the Warsaw Rising, or at least puts lots of pressue on Stalin to help. Some signs show that Stalin didn't budge because we didn't show our commitment to the AK. This would lead to a democratic Poland, which would look at the Soviet Union as a liberator. This feeling of good will towards the USSR might transfer over to Russia.

B)Why does Poland remilitarize? People just don't re-arm for the hell of it. A re-militarized Germany might cause it. Therefore, why does Germany re-militarize?

C)I'm still lost on this NRE. Why do all these countries simply lie down and take it? I need some more convincing on why Croatia, Slovenia, and all these other countries should simply line up and join this almost inviable state that has emerged in Italy.

And Leo, leave the poor boy alone. Besides, we know that once Greece ever managed to complete the Megali Idea, Constantinople would immediately become the capital. That much I am forced to believe.

[Hapsburg]

Okay, well, we're kinda getting somewhere. However,

A)Poland hates Russia far more than the Germans. Perhaps a POD would be the West actually supports the AK in the Warsaw Rising, or at least puts lots of pressue on Stalin to help. Some signs show that Stalin didn't budge because we didn't show our commitment to the AK. This would lead to a democratic Poland, which would look at the Soviet Union as a liberator. This feeling of good will towards the USSR might transfer over to Russia.

B)Why does Poland remilitarize? People just don't re-arm for the hell of it. A re-militarized Germany might cause it. Therefore, why does Germany re-militarize?

C)I'm still lost on this NRE. Why do all these countries simply lie down and take it? I need some more convincing on why Croatia, Slovenia, and all these other countries should simply line up and join this almost inviable state that has emerged in Italy.

And Leo, leave the poor boy alone. Besides, we know that once Greece ever managed to complete the Megali Idea, Constantinople would immediately become the capital. That much I am forced to believe.


A) The dictator convinces them to like russia. plus, its not like the populace can do crap about thier Dictator allying with russia.
B1) Okay, re-militairized germany.
B2) Germany also has a monarchist revolution. Militaristic Hohenzollern King of Germany.
C) Because the Italian government, later Roman gov., convinces thier subjugated subjects of the "greater glory of rome" and "revive the eternal empire" and other crazy propaganda. Italy-Rome gets Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia through a little thing called "conquest"

[Othniel]

C) Because the Italian government, later Roman gov., convinces thier subjugated subjects of the "greater glory of rome" and "revive the eternal empire" and other crazy propaganda. Italy-Rome gets Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia through a little thing called "conquest"
Didn't Mussolina try that one?

[Bulgaroktonos]

A) The dictator convinces them to like russia. plus, its not like the populace can do crap about thier Dictator allying with russia.
B1) Okay, re-militairized germany.
B2) Germany also has a monarchist revolution. Militaristic Hohenzollern King of Germany.
C) Because the Italian government, later Roman gov., convinces thier subjugated subjects of the "greater glory of rome" and "revive the eternal empire" and other crazy propaganda. Italy-Rome gets Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia through a little thing called "conquest"

A)Okay. Well, why does the dictator like Russia? If he is Polish, and no POD surrounding a non-occupied/Communist Poland I'm going to have a tough time believing he would get any support from anybody if he likes Russia.

B)Monarchist revolution. Why? Explain why the people are willing to accept a monarchist overthrow.

C)Why to the Italians buy this propaganda?

I'm not poking holes, I'm just pointing out what needs to be explained.

[Hapsburg]

yeah, but his guy actually suceeds with that venture.

Emperor Romulus Augustus
claims decent from the Julio-Claudians, Romulus, and the Savoys, essentially making him the undisputed "emperor/king" of italy.
'course some of it is forgery, but it passes the population off. ;)

[Hapsburg]

A)Okay. Well, why does the dictator like Russia? If he is Polish, and no POD surrounding a non-occupied/Communist Poland I'm going to have a tough time believing he would get any support from anybody if he likes Russia.

B)Monarchist revolution. Why? Explain why the people are willing to accept a monarchist overthrow.

C)Why to the Italians buy this propaganda?

I'm not poking holes, I'm just pointing out what needs to be explained.

A) He has a tough time doing it, but eventually suceeds on his anti-german base of "russia and us fought the same enemy in ww2. they are our ally!". propaganda is a powerful thing.

B) Monarchy promises stability in an ever-increasingly unstable democratic germany. Hohenzollern line was selected because they brought Germany wealth and power in the 1800s, and they form a constitutional monarchy similar to britain's.

C) delusions of grandeur, same as ww2 germany.

[eschaton]

For what it's worth Hapsburg, I think you do a better job than Jus Pau Hib.

I think you're approaching constructing AH totally wrong though. Generally speaking, there are two main ways people go about it on the board.

1. You start with a POD with only a vauge idea of what would happen, and then see how history will unfold. This can involve a shitload of work. Look at Gray Wolf's TLs and see how he looks at every single element of world history when figuring out how a POD affects things.

2. You start with an objective (communist U.S., surviving Byzantium, etc), and study history attempting to figure out where to place your POD so that what you want to happen can PLAUSIBLY happen.

A few ground rules are only one POD (usually, though Bassilus makes it work with multiple PODs), no historical characters (butterflies will pretty much doom the right sperm from hitting the egg within a few years), and extensive research.

As for this TL, as it's an FTL, the same things do not apply as an ATL. However, it's pretty shoddy nonetheless. As others have said, you are reflecting the past upon the far future. Frankly, most of this is possible within 200 years, but it would reverse the trends away from multi-national organizations such as the EU and towards WW2 style nationalism again, which I don't see happening barring a major economic disruption. No good reason to explain the re-development of a multipolar, european dominated world. No good explanation of how the world dealt with peak oil and other coming resources crises. No good explanation why no substantial advances have happened in computers, genetics, etc. No good reason why nations would give a crap what happened several hundred years before (okay, Europe already cares about that shit now, but less and less).

You have to understand at base AH is *not* a wargame, as I think you're in the wargame mentality, like a lot of younger posters are. It's fun as hell to daydream random lines on a map, but it's not going to impress people who read Decades of Darkness. And your attitude isn't helping things.

[Bulgaroktonos]

A) He has a tough time doing it, but eventually suceeds on his anti-german base of "russia and us fought the same enemy in ww2. they are our ally!". propaganda is a powerful thing.

B) Monarchy promises stability in an ever-increasingly unstable democratic germany. Hohenzollern line was selected because they brought Germany wealth and power in the 1800s, and they form a constitutional monarchy similar to britain's.

C) delusions of grandeur, same as ww2 germany.

Okay so A is in response to the remilitarized Germany. I can kinda buy it. Just barely. B, I suppose if Germany is tanking, then monarchists might somehow come to power.

C) still lacks explanation. Why does Italy feel the need to expand? You need to add some kind of reason. Rome didn't expand because they felt like it, they expanded because they feared being destroyed as they were in 390BCE. Thus, they started conquering everybody around them or that posed a threat. Then it kinda built upon itself into a huge orgy of conquest. You need some reason for Italy to accept this propaganda and to buy into conquest.

[Hapsburg]

Don't italians still think of themselves as the remains of the "great" Roman Empire?
Just magnify that existing sentiment, especially by Romulus Augustus in power, an amalgmation of Rome's great dynasties.

[das]

As for Russian Nazis, not too implausible as there are a lot of those here currently. Ofcourse, the Slavs are the Master Race now, but the core idea is still there.

But in that case, why wait so long? Zhirinovsky should be the one to lead it, in early 21st century! :D (Or maybe Peresljagin?)

(Other then that, you need more althist training. Imagination is good, yeah, but it takes more then that.)

[Leo Caesius]

Don't italians still think of themselves as the remains of the "great" Roman Empire?
Just magnify that existing sentiment, especially by Romulus Augustus in power, an amalgmation of Rome's great dynasties.As an Italian of sorts, I can safely say no. Italians are Italians, not Romans. They have their own great tradition of which Rome is only the early part - a tradition of music and theater, of opera and great literature, of sculpture and painting, of great discoveries, inventions, and economics, but not of conquest, unfortunately. When the fascists came around pledging to pick up where the Romans had left off, Mussolini pledged that he would make conquerors out of the Italians if he had to personally kick each one in the butt; I suspect it would take much more today.

[Othniel]

Besides, expelling those inside vatican city might not go over well, as you stated they are completely secular, and supposedly the Basition of Civil Rights. What is it, an uber-socialist monarchy?

[Hapsburg]

oh, no, i said that just to shut one person up.
really, the Vatican exists, and the Pope is a powerful force in italy.
The Emperor is also primarily catholic and etc.

But, i agree that the Italians will need more to motivate them to Romanhood. Let's just put it shortly: it happens, one way or another.
I'd go into detail, but im concentrating the detail on other parts of it.

[DocOrlando]

I'd go into detail, but im concentrating the detail on other parts of it.

And which parts would those be?

[Hapsburg]

Germany.
Frappe's France.
Italy after annexation of territory.

[Othniel]

For what it's worth Hapsburg, I think you do a better job than Jus Pau Hib.

I think you're approaching constructing AH totally wrong though. Generally speaking, there are two main ways people go about it on the board.

1. You start with a POD with only a vauge idea of what would happen, and then see how history will unfold. This can involve a shitload of work. Look at Gray Wolf's TLs and see how he looks at every single element of world history when figuring out how a POD affects things.

2. You start with an objective (communist U.S., surviving Byzantium, etc), and study history attempting to figure out where to place your POD so that what you want to happen can PLAUSIBLY happen.

A few ground rules are only one POD (usually, though Bassilus makes it work with multiple PODs), no historical characters (butterflies will pretty much doom the right sperm from hitting the egg within a few years), and extensive research.

As for this TL, as it's an FTL, the same things do not apply as an ATL. However, it's pretty shoddy nonetheless. As others have said, you are reflecting the past upon the far future. Frankly, most of this is possible within 200 years, but it would reverse the trends away from multi-national organizations such as the EU and towards WW2 style nationalism again, which I don't see happening barring a major economic disruption. No good reason to explain the re-development of a multipolar, european dominated world. No good explanation of how the world dealt with peak oil and other coming resources crises. No good explanation why no substantial advances have happened in computers, genetics, etc. No good reason why nations would give a crap what happened several hundred years before (okay, Europe already cares about that shit now, but less and less).

You have to understand at base AH is *not* a wargame, as I think you're in the wargame mentality, like a lot of younger posters are. It's fun as hell to daydream random lines on a map, but it's not going to impress people who read Decades of Darkness. And your attitude isn't helping things.
You forget, certain personallities do come into play, especially with American poltics. Excluding that, you just have detrimine the will of the general masses. Hapsburg, read Foundation by Issac Asimov. It will show you that you can make a plausible prediction upon how masses would react to an action. Historical enties are often unstable when forced into a situation of this portion. Many polticians play to the will of the people, instead of the other way around.

[Hapsburg]

okay.
any other things i need to clarify?

can we get on with the war part?

[Bulgaroktonos]

No, because we have no way of understanding why there should be war.......

You can't just say "It happens because I said so!"

Dictatorships are not the all-powerful demi-gods you make them out to be. They need a reason to exist. Only after establishing their legitimacy can they become self-preserving. Thus, for us to give you some reasonable pattern of political developments, we need information.

Propaganda doesn't work if people aren't willing to believe it. i.e. Poland, Italy, etc. Why is it that these people are willing to change their whole views upon the world? We need that to be explained.

[Hapsburg]

its hard for me to explain it, because i dont know about the intricacies of polish politics and modern italian politics, because i frankly dont care.
i just like war, and want to see this war story played out.

if you gave me information on modern italian politics, i could then give you information on how it goes "roman". first, i need to know what you know...then you can know what i dont yet but soon will know...

[Matt]

its hard for me to explain it, because i dont know about the intricacies of polish politics and modern italian politics, because i frankly dont care.
i just like war, and want to see this war story played out.



The politics is the important part, after all War is just a continuation of politics through other means. If you're serious about study military history, you've gotta come to grips with that.

[Othniel]

I want to hear the speach this Itailin Emporer used.

[DominusNovus]

Honestly, Hapsburg, I just wasted several minutes of my life reading this thread to see why the hell it got so long so quick (long enough to surpass my far superior and older Saeculorum Romanorum TL, I might add as a plug). If you're going to come up with an absolutely apeshit idea, be smart enough to accept the inevitable criticism graciously. Or, at the very least, dont' just keep acting so defensively (and rudely) and coming up with increasingly warped explanations that require other warped explanations, ad infinitum.

You just got kicked for being incredibly rude, one might think you'd get the hint.

[eschaton]

One last thing Hapsburg...

I suggest you start hanging out in the 'shared worlds' forum if you insist on continuing your worlds like this. I just browse it, as the roleplaying they do isn't up my alley, but a lot of the scenarios are similar to yours, and I think you would find a better home there, whenever the next game begins.

[Bulgaroktonos]

What? What nations of ours make absolutely no sense?

[Othniel]

What? What nations of ours make absolutely no sense?
Alsance and Loraine?

[Bulgaroktonos]

Touche, salesman.

Damnit.

[Othniel]

We love little implausiblities Burg. And I mean things not far off. There are more than a few of those. Not much more, but still...we thrive off of the seemingly impossible.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Yeah, but most of our states have some viability.

My Greece is unlikely past say 1900, but Imperial Russia was great......

[eschaton]

What? What nations of ours make absolutely no sense?

A lot of the GateScape worlds seem borderline nonsensical to me. But it's more you guys like military stuff (I can't stand wargames, I like the political/social/economic side of AH), and some of the TLs are a little less...umm...rigorous than the stuff on the main page. :D

Not bad though. Just not my cup of tea.

[Othniel]

A lot of the GateScape worlds seem borderline nonsensical to me. But it's more you guys like military stuff (I can't stand wargames, I like the political/social/economic side of AH), and some of the TLs are a little less...umm...rigorous than the stuff on the main page. :D

Not bad though. Just not my cup of tea.
Hey, Gatescape is work of art. You should check out the new stuff. Fair extrapolation is a concept that we have to take into consideration when writing highly vering timelines. Go 30 years back and many of our improvment seem immpossible to the experts. Read some of the Alterverse stuff.

[DominusNovus]

A lot of the GateScape worlds seem borderline nonsensical to me. But it's more you guys like military stuff (I can't stand wargames, I like the political/social/economic side of AH), and some of the TLs are a little less...umm...rigorous than the stuff on the main page. :D

Not bad though. Just not my cup of tea.
Well, unless they're directly ripped from actual timelines, people can't hope to devote as much time to them.

That said, I prefer the plausible ones, but they don't claim to be plausible.

[G.Bone]

Right- so here are some advice for the 'n00b' who has just returned from being kicked

A) learn from these guys. These folks know more about history than you ever can and they are specialized in their fields.

B) That in no way other folk are doing your own POD or FH. You will have to do it. Unless it's a Shared World or ASB land type place, such wide spread deviations from History (i.e. "Italy grabs Slovienia, Croatia, and buys Hawaii from the U.S.") will NOT be tolerated- and led to those whom are experienced in the field/country (ME!) become very annoyed at you.

C) If you are doing an ASB land type TL, try have a vestitude of it being plausible. Know your stuff. While I must admit that my UAS TL is on shakey ground, I do know the incidents that spur it and it has some credibility within history. Having Italy grab some minute chain of islands in the middle of the Pacific, which is x<2000 miles away, is not plausible.

D) Seriously- hang only in the areas you are talented in. This is a history orientated board where plausability is held as sacrosant. If you do not have that background, learn the fields that you are talented in and then speak. (Otherwise known as Think before you say/post )

E) If you are wanting of character orientated TL's- write historical fiction- i.e. fictional setting with historical background. Only in fiction are you allowed the latitude of fantasy that you have shown here in this thread.
Not alternate history.

F) Only by these steps will you be able to gain the respect as Diamond or Leo has acquired. Follow their footsteps.

G) If you cannot abide by these guidelines, then you probably belong either in the ASB forum, Chat forum, or do not frequent this board at all. You have managed arouse the ire of several key posters in this forum and I should advise to you in toning your behavior down else you will be torn to shreds by other posters.

H) This is advice; this is guidelines; in no way am I forcing you to obey them- I am simply stating the obvious "lessons" I have acquired in my 4 years on the board and I should state that for the most part, they have been in practice to a good effect.

[eschaton]

Great post G. Bone.

Let me just say in addition...

There is a reason I don't post TLs (so far). With the exception of the history of radical social movements in America, I think I probably know far less than many of the best posters on the board. My academic background was mainly in political science and economics. I know more about idologies, societal structure, and even linguistics than I do about what happened when in terms of dates of individual historical events. I do know little snippets here and there, and enjoy asking questions and pointing out things when I do know something worthwhile. And I learn new things on here almost every day. Being a participant of the board does not mean you have to constantly try to come up with TLs. You can contribute in other ways.

[Scarecrow]

i agree with what poeple like G.Bone have been saying. you have to learn the rules!

were not trying to dampen your creative spirits, but if there are problems with a TL, then we will tell you. but if you go overboard...

i said before that i dont like the 'great man' PODs i will modify that to 'not a fan' after careful consideration, but this just seems to be...urgh. if a dictator comes to power using the military, then there are those who will silently oppose him, living up in the mountins, blowing up appartment buildings, etc. if this is set in the future, what effect will mass comunications have? people arent stupid (well a fair few of them are). if they dont like what a dictator is saying and doing...if there sons are being drafted to go and fight to restore an empire of 2000 years ago and dying, if they have to stand in bread lines because all the good food is going to the soldiers, if thier internet porn is cut of...then bam! an uprising. or th emilitary may rise up against a dictator.

when you post an idea or a TL or something, make sure you know your position on it, write down notes on the tl, but dont get to upset if people disagree with you if what youve written is wrong

and you dont have to be a nazi to read Mien Kamf or however its spelled :D . i read some if it as reaserch for history, but it is a damn long book, full of NAzi propaganda.

-Scarecrow

[Bulgaroktonos]

That's what I do. I ask questions so I can try to formulate some, but most of the time, I just offer my insights.....

[Othniel]

Great post G. Bone.

Let me just say in addition...

There is a reason I don't post TLs (so far). With the exception of the history of radical social movements in America, I think I probably know far less than many of the best posters on the board. My academic background was mainly in political science and economics. I know more about idologies, societal structure, and even linguistics than I do about what happened when in terms of dates of individual historical events. I do know little snippets here and there, and enjoy asking questions and pointing out things when I do know something worthwhile. And I learn new things on here almost every day. Being a participant of the board does not mean you have to constantly try to come up with TLs. You can contribute in other ways.
Then why don't you leave mass comment in my Industrialist for President thread?

[eschaton]

Then why don't you leave mass comment in my Industrialist for President thread?

Heh. Besides Norman Thomas, I didn't really see anyone on the TL involved in what I would consider the 'left.' I'll go give it another look soon though.

[Diamond]

F) Only by these steps will you be able to gain the respect as Diamond or Leo has acquired. Follow their footsteps.

I'm flattered that you would compare me with a truly intelligent person like Leo. I just plod along and do the best I can. People like Leo, AHP, Faeelin, Dominus, Norman, etc are the real geniuses of this forum.

And great post BTW. You'd think most of that would be common sense... :rolleyes:

[Hapsburg]

okay.
im not trying to be rude, its just you all are attacking me and trying to destroy this.

As i said before, this was originally a MOVIE SCRIPT!
I posted the basics of it on here, and wanted people to post with helpful remarks in regards to the WAR.
I dont care about before the WAR.
Then ahs relatively little to do with WW4, in regards to why who does what. Very different from WW1-2, where 2 was a consequence of 1.
In this, 4 is not so much a 'consequence' of 3, but an after-effect of nationalism after 3. If i were wanting you to consentrate on WW3, i would post the thread as "WW3"!!!

Its called WW4: the War Against France
no ww4: the war against me.


Ive seen some damn implausible things by other people, even more implausible than this. No-one wails on those, because they are written by people other than me. Biased?

[Scarecrow]

i wouldnt say that we are biased against you, we are just trying to guide your ideas to make it plausible. i know how you feel, as in the GS threads about my clockwork computers (remeber those guys?) but we sorted it out resonalby calmly.

if you are writting about a WW4, then we need to know about the world before it, because everything lead to that point. think of it as just ordinary AH, not FH. you may not need to focus on anything but the war as you already know about the pre-war situation. we dont. keep that in mind



and generaly if there is something implasible, poeple are willing to bend on it, and some are done light harted, or they are able to defend thier choices.

[Darkest]

i wouldnt say that we are biased against you, we are just trying to guide your ideas to make it plausible. i know how you feel, as in the GS threads about my clockwork computers (remeber those guys?) but we sorted it out resonalby calmly.

*cough cough* BTW, sorry bout that Scarecrow. I still think that clockwork computers could work (if they were big enough), but cog-driven computers wouldn't. Sorry that we caused you trouble. Peace out.

[JimmyJimJam]

So this was originally a movie script. If that is the case, isnt writing about world war four a little bit like writing the sequel before writing the original film?

[Othniel]

Little point in argueing now. He's banned.

[G.Bone]

Again???

Geez-

Hey- maybe we should adopt my A-G thing for n00bs on posting here.

[Scarecrow]

wait, hes gone? ah crap. well he i just hope he has learned a leason from this...

*cough cough* BTW, sorry bout that Scarecrow. I still think that clockwork computers could work (if they were big enough), but cog-driven computers wouldn't. Sorry that we caused you trouble. Peace out.

yeah thats fine. it was just an example of a less extreme version of what happened here. the only other instinces i have found have been about politics or the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.

back to the *topic*
he said he wrote it origonaly as a movie script, so that kinda explains the WWIV theme, as it looks different as a movie, and the info level in movies is very low. but i stick by what i have said before

[DocOrlando]

If Hapsburg wants to write movies, he should go to a movie chat board. I'm sure there are plenty of history naifs in such forums who will not give a soiled tissue for the whys and wherefores, as long as there are enough explosions.

He as much as admitted he only cared about gaming out the war. I know wars are a huge part of AH; war and history are inextricably linked. However, war with neither cause nor consequence isn't history, it's a first-person shooter writ large.

I enjoy the forums here because I enjoy history -- the interplay and cause/effect are the dynamic that make history what it is. To dismiss all that is to toss history out the window. Like others, I participate largely on the fringe because I haven't the time to devote to mastering a particular culture or time period. I know a lot about a little, and so I comment here and there, particularly if the discussion turns from tactics to motivation. I have had ideas on occasion, but I will refrain from posting them until I can nurture them to the point where they can stand on their own (and against casual examination, at the least).

You educated regulars have my admiration; it's encouraging that there are those out there who appreciate history well enough to make a hobby of it, and to converse learnedly on a multitude of eras and peoples which were cleared from most people's mental filing cabinets as soon as their last exam was completed. I wish I had the time to devote and to allow me to participate more directly.

[G.Bone]

Well- you're a bit like me, although my specialty was the ACW (the main theaters). I've learned a lot on this board and I just wish that there was some *SUPER MAJOR TL that would have all the interesting aspects of the various TL's that come about here that are great. (i.e. "The Gallic League", "Dark Age Map", "Decades of Darkness", "Empty America", etc)