Norton's TL Issue

[Emperor Norton I]

Alright, so I do wanna get to doing a timeline of my own, and will list the one's I could do accordingly. The Kennedy one I'll do at a certain point regardless but I'm not sure if I should do a short term, preliminary one first. The Reagan/Bush one is one of those short termers (and by a similar token, the Nixon TL may be on that level). When I'll actually get to doing these, I don't know (and will likely require intellectual aid on those beyond Nixon and Kennedy). I suppose you can suggest other timelines, but know I find a large part of the 1990's and the whole of the 2000's intellectually boring if they resemble the OTL in a majority way.

Camelot Revisited:
JFK survives his assassination in Dallas setting the world on an alternate course, for good or ill. This will, when done, be what I try to make my masterpeice, but it may not be proper to do it yet.

Dick's Trick:
Richard Nixon avoids the scandal of Watergate, ushering in an era of a nation not further disillusioned with the establishment, but where the polarization of the American populace from the 70's and 60's as well as the Imperial Presidency may continue.

The Final Curtain:
President Reagan is assassinated in 1981, leading to the in the era of President Bush overseeing "Morning In America".

The Spirit of Camp David:
The U2 incident does not occur, lending to the possibility of a cooling of a Cold War thanks to the relationship built by Eisenhower and Kruschev. This was more of an afterthought that popped into my head only recently and has gotten minimal research as a result (though not as minimal as the one right above it).

"Unnamed"/ I Like Mondays*:
James A. Garfield survives his assassination attempt and goes on to lead a period of reform and Progressive policy. I have a sort of ok understanding of Garfield and the time period (I'd have to brush up on some things), but am motivated because I see a lack of Garfield timelines. However, as this would be a long time period, it would take a higher level of dedication than I may want to give it currently.

*Cute title, I know.;)

The Fourth Bullet:
On November 22nd, 1963, the nation faced tragedy when it's young President and Vice President were both killed in Dallas. Succeeding them, the aging Speaker of the House, John W. McCormack. I didn't put this on the poll, so it goes under "Other".

[Grey Wolf]

The Garfield one definitelty sounds more fun and interesting. The rest seem to have threads about them all recently

Bset Regartds
Grey Wolf

[Hades]

JFK, the Same guy that initiated Operation Mongoose and tripled the military budget. He only turned down northwoods because of its implausibility.

I sorely recommend Rethinking Camelot by Noam Chomsky. The memo for withdrawal was based upon south vietnamese performance. Anton Batey's review on Amazon sums it up.

If you think Kennedy was goung to withdraw from Vietnam, you are clearly deluding yourself.

The only people who preach this canard this are Jim Marrs and Olvier Stone.

[Zacoftheaxes]

Not only does I Like Mondays seem like the most unique (not overdone, more time=more changes.) But the title is awesome.

[Citizen Samuel]

I wouldn't recommend reading any Choamsky books not on linguistics, but JFK was a complete fraud. One of the wost Presidents the US has ever had.

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Garfield sounds very interesting. Although, I was tempted to vote "other," if you want a short-term one. Dole beating Bush in the '88 primaries wuld set up an interesting race between 2 lackluster campaigners, with changes whoever wins. The POD could perhaps be his coming out for the treaty between Reagan and Gorbacheve sooner. (In OTL, Bush suppoorted it, Dole wasn't sure but later did, and the others opposed, working from memory of that time as a college student here.)

[Historico]

Ah so Norton will finally join our ranks as an offical timeline writer...Come now we must feast for this joyous occasions. But yeah I voted for the Reagan assasinated one because it's the shortest and probably a hell of a lot easier to research for. Plus, although it has been discussed alot, we really havent seen a thorough timeline done on the topic. My heart is really set on the JFK lives timeline, but I know that one will be alot of work, ill be waiting eagerly untill you feel up to tackling it.

[TNF]

I'd really like to see a Nixon administration that continues into 1976 and gives the country a public option for health care, but Garfield sounds cool, too. I can't wait to see your TL regardless, Norton, I'm sure it'll be a good one. ;)

[thatsmartguy]

The Garfield one sounds pretty interesting. Good luck finding the information you'd need to do it well.

The Reagan one has been done, I'm sure, but I don't know how well. Also, if you do it, call it "Mourning in America". It's a cooler title. :D

[General Mung Beans]

Garfield! Garfield! Garfield!

[Emperor Norton I]

Damn, I forgot to include the one where both JFK and LBJ are killed in Dallas in 1963.

JFK, the Same guy that initiated Operation Mongoose and tripled the military budget. He only turned down northwoods because of its implausibility.

I sorely recommend Rethinking Camelot by Noam Chomsky. The memo for withdrawal was based upon south vietnamese performance. Anton Batey's review on Amazon sums it up.

If you think Kennedy was goung to withdraw from Vietnam, you are clearly deluding yourself.

The only people who preach this canard this are Jim Marrs and Olvier Stone.

Oh, you mean JFK, the guy who was discussing detente with the Soviets, talked with Castro in '63 about improving relations since their animosity was going nowhere, and proposed a joint-moon shot between the US and USSR as a sign of cooperation? The Kennedy who avoided invading Cuba when others (and the hawks) would have invaded? A Kennedy whose plans to withdrawal, while beginning as a sign of frustration with Diem, were still on the books after Diem was assassinated and who had discussed withdrawal and disengagement from Vietnam following the 1964 election because of fear of a Second Korean war (and, as less than a third of the American public paid attention to Vietnam back then, and he kept information vague, he could afford such an action)? The Kennedy who, while never a hawk, became less hawkish over the coarse of his administration (Norton's Law # 18)? Yes, rather than trusting history, and what the people who knew Kennedy reported and have said since, I should trust Noam Chomskey's biased and arguably revisionist history.

The only people who preach what you do are core Conservatives (and many Conservatives do oddly have somewhat of a soft spot for Kennedy for tax cuts and initial defense spending) and disillusioned lefties. Which is why I will ignore you now because I'm rather sick and tired of this.

The Garfield one definitelty sounds more fun and interesting. The rest seem to have threads about them all recently

Bset Regartds
Grey Wolf

Well, I may have started some of those threads to help brain storm them.;)

Not only does I Like Mondays seem like the most unique (not overdone, more time=more changes.) But the title is awesome.
The more time=more changes is something that worries me, though. Keep in mind, I've never done an ATL, and while I wouldn't fall into the trap of "World War One occurs exactly the same as it did for no reason, but with the US with like an uber super navy and stuff", I may get lost in the woods late in such a thing.

Similarly, I've come up with an alternative fancier title "A Sensible Radicalism" from a letter he wrote.

Garfield sounds very interesting. Although, I was tempted to vote "other," if you want a short-term one. Dole beating Bush in the '88 primaries wuld set up an interesting race between 2 lackluster campaigners, with changes whoever wins. The POD could perhaps be his coming out for the treaty between Reagan and Gorbacheve sooner. (In OTL, Bush suppoorted it, Dole wasn't sure but later did, and the others opposed, working from memory of that time as a college student here.)Hmm, the problem with lackluster is that it is lackluster, though.;)

Ah so Norton will finally join our ranks as an offical timeline writer...Come now we must feast for this joyous occasions. But yeah I voted for the Reagan assasinated one because it's the shortest and probably a hell of a lot easier to research for. Plus, although it has been discussed alot, we really havent seen a thorough timeline done on the topic. My heart is really set on the JFK lives timeline, but I know that one will be alot of work, ill be waiting eagerly untill you feel up to tackling it.
I will join the ranks. Not sure when that'll start, exactly, though.;)

I'd really like to see a Nixon administration that continues into 1976 and gives the country a public option for health care, but Garfield sounds cool, too. I can't wait to see your TL regardless, Norton, I'm sure it'll be a good one. ;)
Thank you. But, there is someone for the President from 1976 to 1984 that may break your heart, my lefty friend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3913/52632790.png (http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/offtopic/ronald_reagan)

The Garfield one sounds pretty interesting. Good luck finding the information you'd need to do it well.

The Reagan one has been done, I'm sure, but I don't know how well. Also, if you do it, call it "Mourning in America". It's a cooler title. :D
The problem with a lot of these timelines is that I think they've been treated as so kosher that indeed no one really does do them but we treat them like they've been done over and over en masse. And I just made up a title on the fly so I could use that I suppose.

Garfield! Garfield! Garfield!

I could take the effort of putting a beard on Garfield the cat here, but it's too much work.;)

[Hades]

well, i apologise for citing only chomsky, but other sources show JFK had diem murdered. If he was going to withdraw from Vietnam

Why, if he set up Operation Mongoose in the first place, would kennedy suddenly warm up to Castro?

Some stuff on the Spartacus forum (although be warned, it is full of woo):

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2983

and some more reasonable stuff

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jfk_cia.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/stjohn.htm

[Emperor Norton I]

Nope, on my ignore list. I can't see you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tROqE9N2nuQ

[Hades]

If Kennedy was going to sudddenly end the cold war and pull out of vietnam, then why did he boast in fort worth hours before he died of increasing us counter-insurgency presence in Vietnam by 600 percent.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/context1.htm

And putting someone on ignore is like putting fingers in you ears and saying "la la la la, i can't hear you. la la la la"

[Emperor Norton I]

Nope, still can't see you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0y2dDlFmLg

[Hades]

Nope, still can't see you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0y2dDlFmLg

that is like covering your eyes and saying lalalalalalala.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil doesn't work in real life.

Address the Mcadams site links then.

[Emperor Norton I]

I've run out of songs. But, for the good of my heart and sanity, I still can't see you.

[Hades]

I've run out of songs. But, for the good of my heart and sanity, I still can't see you.

you are still blind to the truth eh?

Still beLIEve the big lie of oliver stone that JFK was going to bring about a utopia? Camelot is nothing more than a fairytale.

The Truth shall set you free.

[RogueBeaver]

I've chronicled a Nixon Presidency until 1976 three times. Health care as he proposed in 1974 IOTL is passed ITTL. Additional insurance legislation was passed during President Kennedy's first term in 1979.

[Emperor Norton I]

I've chronicled a Nixon Presidency until 1976 three times. Health care as he proposed in 1974 IOTL is passed ITTL. Additional insurance legislation was passed during President Kennedy's first term in 1979.
In TL's, TL's diverging simply from Watergate, or discussion?

[RogueBeaver]

TLs. One POD is a certain Palestinian terrorist having crappy aim. The other is July 1, 1967.

[Emperor Norton I]

To quote TR, Bully. Then that leaves open a pure Watergate POD.

[oakvale]

Camelot Revisited, because there's a load of speculation around here about exactly this, but I've yet to see a decent TL written on the subject.

[Emperor Norton I]

Camelot Revisited, because there's a load of speculation around here about exactly this, but I've yet to see a decent TL written on the subject.
It takes a heck of a lot of brainstorming and stewing in its own juices, which is ongoing with me (I'm keeping ideas in a note book). For every thing I have a good idea on how it may turn out, there's another I'm foggy on.

[Emperor Norton I]

Can I get any tips on timeline writing? One of my biggest issues, by the way, is details like Congressional/Presidential acts and legislation since I don't know how to really realistically create them.

I'm adding one to the list, btw, though I'm not sure if it'll make much of a difference given the vote. The Fourth Bullet: JFK and LBJ are assassinated in Dallas,and John McCormack becomes President. That can go in the "Other" I suppose.

[RogueBeaver]

Maverick offers great guidelines in the Help forum. For electoral maps, use this (http://uselectionatlas.org/TOOLS/evcalc.php) , Wiki for primaries, and good books on the subject. I'd recommend Dallek's JFK bio or Black's Nixon bio for a good summary of the period. For the TL writing, I prefer to use AH books and journals, because it's detail without scrolling through pages of transcripts to get to an exciting chapter.

[Historico]

Can I get any tips on timeline writing? One of my biggest issues, by the way, is details like Congressional/Presidential acts and legislation since I don't know how to really realistically create them.

I'm adding one to the list, btw, though I'm not sure if it'll make much of a difference given the vote. The Fourth Bullet: JFK and LBJ are assassinated in Dallas,and John McCormack becomes President. That can go in the "Other" I suppose.

Well Nort, all I would say write to where your comfort zone is...if your a policy wonk like me then breaking down legislation mainly to further along your overall theme of your timeline should come pretty easy. This best thing, is to look at the Acts passed during OTL, who sponsored them etc, if they failed or passed during that specific period of time. So with the Garfield Timeline(Which looks like its the Fan Favorite) look at the Legislation of the time and tweek it to how you think things would have turned out differently.

However, if your more comfortable with foriegn affairs(A skill to balance both, is one that Im struggling to pick up), then write about foriegn affairs with snippets about whats going on Domestically within the United States. The important things; as with real life is don't get off track and focus on the Task at hand whether that's with a Domestic POD or an Foriegn one. I hope this helps buddy:D

[Emperor Norton I]

Coolio, thanks.

My issue with legislation, however, is that I can probably do it, but I have the fear that I'd just be pulling it out of my @$$. IE, "President Romney attempted to pass the Decency For America Act of 1971 (DFAA). Addressing what was viewed as rising indecency, and in reaction to the rise of pornography, the act attempted to set standards for what could legally be produced and sold with a Congressional body to oversee its enforcement". I feel stuff like that would be pulling it out of my butt. Then again, maybe I'm giving alternate history too much credit for scientific method and certainties than I should and pulling stuff out of my butt based on behavior and individuals and history is necessary.

The Garfield one would be a lot of work, so I don't think I wanna get to that yet. That'd be on the backburner with the JFK one (and may even come after the Kennedy one). I think I'll go with the Nixon one as a short termer. But, I need the communities help on certain details, nonetheless, and shall whore myself in some threads accordingly;).