Pueblo Challange

[Othniel]

I'd like to see the best timelines people can come up with if the Apache tribes hadn't defeated the Ancient Enemy, the Anasazi. Heck as long as they don't die that way, maybe lasting till the Spanish get there, or enough that they get sacked by the Aztecs. Use creativity in this, the cliffdwelling peoples of the Southwest deserve it.

[Diamond]

It's funny you should bring this up; I'm using the Anasazi as a culture in an Alterverse plane I'm working on. They're led by ancient wise-men who are much more than they appear...

[Othniel]

I'm already on it. Comment in the ASB thread....please...

[Hapsburg]

mayhaps the spanish introduce gunpowder weps, and the anasazi adopt them, in exchange for acknowledging Spanish dominance in the areas dirctly south of publo-inhabited areas. the anasazi, with guns and Spanish allies, blow the living fuck out of the Apache' and assimilate them.
there, more than survive, the anasazi conquer the apache'(with major help from the conquistadores)

[HARRY]

I thought it was fairly accepted fact that the Anasazi civilisation collapsed in on itself. This was due to deforrestation, over population and a prolonged drought causing a famine when their stored corn was finally depleted. The descendants of the Pueblo/Anasazi moved and became the Hopi and Zuni peoples. Later when the Navaho arrived it the region and found the ruins the named the builder Anasazi meaning Ancient Strangers a very self explainatory name.

Okay enough preaching a good POD would be for the leaders to be more enviromental friendly. Instigating some some form of tree planting regime, population limits and spend more effort on building silos/dams for storage in the bad seasons.

[zoomar]

I thought it was fairly accepted fact that the Anasazi civilisation collapsed in on itself. This was due to deforrestation, over population and a prolonged drought causing a famine when their stored corn was finally depleted. The descendants of the Pueblo/Anasazi moved and became the Hopi and Zuni peoples. Later when the Navaho arrived it the region and found the ruins the named the builder Anasazi meaning Ancient Strangers a very self explainatory name.

Okay enough preaching a good POD would be for the leaders to be more enviromental friendly. Instigating some some form of tree planting regime, population limits and spend more effort on building silos/dams for storage in the bad seasons.


You are right, Harry, about the decline of the Anasazi. A possible PoD (rather fanciful) is below:

AD 1000-1200 Trading contacts with Toltec civilization expand more than in OTL. Mesoamerican outposts move up from Casas Grandes in Chihuahua to the Chaco Canyon Area. These outliers survive collapse of Toltecs and reinitiate relationships with Aztecs in about 1400. After Cortez's conquest of Tenochtitlan, small elements of Azrec nobility, merchant class, and military orders flee northward, establishing themselves in Anasazi area. They bring with them a basic understanding of Spanish military technology, and commence raiding into Mexico to obtain guns, metal weapons, horses, and captives able to instruct people in their use. In the mid 1500's they completely defeat Coronado's expedition into the US southwest with no survivors. Spanish interest in exploring the north is reduced, an there is no conquest of the Nahuatlopueblos - as this merged group becomes known. They easily keep marauding nomads (Apache and Navaho primarily) at bay. In late 1600's Spanish again make a push into the area, but distance from Mexico City and effective defense leads to the Treaty of T'santlo, whereby the Nahuatlopueblos agree to permit missionaries free access to their area, trade relationships with the Spanish - including in slaves - in exchange for the Spanish Crown's recognition of their independence. By 1750, the Pueblo civilization area has become a powerful native buffer state allied with Spain between the expanding French, English, and Spanish colonial empires. They now follow a militant synchretic merger of Catholicism, native animism, and Mesoamerican polytheism. Their lightly armed cavalry ranges far and wide through the southern great plains, capturing slaves for Spanish-Mexican haciendas, hunting bison for the fur trade, and establishing mines in the Rockies for gold and silver - all of which goes to Spanish coffers in exchange for guns, metal weapons, and technology.

The subsequent history of North America is greatly affected by these people.

[Othniel]

Realitively the demise of Anasazi is unknown. But a more effective system may work...if have more of the irragation practiced by the Hohokam, , and they have something along the Incan system for distrubiting food and water to famined parts...well we may prolong it. Next up you work on your millitary, making it more effective against nomadic raiders as Leo already said. In the end it may allow for the Zuni and Hopi tribes to exsist as richer nations. Maybe they go up and conquer the Apache, and slowly intagrate them into their society. Their strongholds are reality easy to defend as shown by the history of the desitute Zuni. Because of their isolated postion when the Spainish arrive that allows them to have a better hold out. They end up with a few escaped horses that make for effective raids into New Spain. Although techniquies might not be adopted for a while.

[Historico]

It would be interesting...To see the Anaszi evolve into a culture similar to the Spanish vision of Cibola

[Hapsburg]

a good POD would be for the leaders to be more enviromental friendly. Instigating some some form of tree planting regime, population limits and spend more effort on building silos/dams for storage in the bad seasons.

I hate enviromentalist bullsh*t. Enviromentalism pisses me off. dang hippies and thier drugs and fire....
not that you're a hippy, harry. that'd be an insult on someone i dont know, which goes against my foreign policy.

[Othniel]

I hate enviromentalist bullsh*t. Enviromentalism pisses me off. dang hippies and thier drugs and fire....
not that you're a hippy, harry. that'd be an insult on someone i dont know, which goes against my foreign policy.
You killed my thread!

[Hapsburg]

but its agaisnt my foreign policy!
*whines like cartman*
MY POT PIE!

:D :confused: :D

[Othniel]

Accualtly trees would help make the area less humid. Fruit-bearing trees would be best for the region and provide a stable amount of food, and maybe even water since the water would condense more quickly. The area would be nice and cool. Hmmm...yes, it works well.

[Hapsburg]

hm.
yes it does.

[robertp6165]

Realitively the demise of Anasazi is unknown. But a more effective system may work...if have more of the irragation practiced by the Hohokam...

The problem with irrigation in the Southwest is that the few perennial rivers which are suitable for irrigation have a high salt and alkaline content. Not enough to make them unfit for irrigation or drinking, but over time, irrigation leads to higher salt/alkaline content in the soil, and eventually you can't make a decent crop anymore. This is a major part of what killed the Hohokam culture and why the Hohokam canals were abandoned in OTL. A similar problem most likely impacted the Anasazi as well (the rivers they were using had a similar problem).

Accualtly trees would help make the area less humid. Fruit-bearing trees would be best for the region and provide a stable amount of food, and maybe even water since the water would condense more quickly. The area would be nice and cool. Hmmm...yes, it works well.

For trees to be grown outside of river valleys, you are going to need massive irrigation. And irrigation leads to increased salinity/alkalinity in the soil, which eventually will kill the trees. Indeed, since much greater irrigation than was practiced in OTL will be required, the Anasazi will collapse faster than in OTL, because the salinity problem will be magnified.

[Othniel]

The problem with irrigation in the Southwest is that the few perennial rivers which are suitable for irrigation have a high salt and alkaline content. Not enough to make them unfit for irrigation or drinking, but over time, irrigation leads to higher salt/alkaline content in the soil, and eventually you can't make a decent crop anymore. This is a major part of what killed the Hohokam culture and why the Hohokam canals were abandoned in OTL. A similar problem most likely impacted the Anasazi as well (the rivers they were using had a similar problem).



For trees to be grown outside of river valleys, you are going to need massive irrigation. And irrigation leads to increased salinity/alkalinity in the soil, which eventually will kill the trees. Indeed, since much greater irrigation than was practiced in OTL will be required, the Anasazi will collapse faster than in OTL, because the salinity problem will be magnified.
Well I've just found one way this didn't work, any better ways of prolonging the doom?

[Othniel]

Ok, see...if you point out a problem, just don't sit back and laugh about it. Present a solution to make it work, or present a new solution to get to that goal.

[Diamond]

Well, you could have some Anasazi genius discover the link between salinity and the increasing infertility of the land. I'm not saying this will instantly reverse decades or centuries of harm, but if discovered early enough, there might be time for subsequent generations to work out some kind of filtration system.

Or, more out in left field (but cool to think about), some aspiring Anasazi engineer invents aqueducts. They run them from the Mogollon Plateau (where there are several freshwater creeks and small rivers originating) down to their villages. Since they need some way to guard the aqueducts against hostile tribes, they are forced to become more militarily-oriented, which will make them a stronger presence overall.

[Othniel]

Continue in this thought line.

[zoomar]

A few facts about the Anasazi, which should guide this discussion.

(1) The Anasazi practiced a fairly intensive irrigation which was based on check dams and flumes collecting rainfall runoff and snow melt from nearby mountain sides. Water was collected on small terraces and diverted onto small fields for agricultural production. It was not based on diverting water from rivers, unlike the Hohokam system of canals. The concerns about salinity seem to be unnecessary.

(2) While environmental degradation probably had a role in the abandonment of some of the larger settlements, particularly those in Chaco Canyon, this can be overstated. Probably the most important factor was a decline in rainfall in the 1200-1400 period - which most likely didn't have much to do with local deforestation as a similar trend occurred throughout much of the southwest and south central US at the time. As far as I know, the only real effect of deforestation on the Anasazi was a decline in the availability of trees suitable for use as building timbers, which resulted in a tendency for them to reuse old roof beams in new construction.

(3) At least based on historic Puebloan peoples, the Anasazi would have been very culturally conservative. Any major technological innovations (aqueducts, adoption of firearms), etc would probably have required an outside group to prompt and direct such activities. I would suggest that it would have to require a group from Mexico essentially taking over (either refugee Aztecs as I fancifully suggested) or renegade Spanish to change the direction of the culture enugh to preserve its independence in the later 16th and 17th centuries. The notion of an "Anasazi engineer" inventing such things on his seems too far fetched.

[Diamond]

The notion of an "Anasazi engineer" inventing such things on his seems too far fetched.
Hence the reason for me putting 'a little more out in left field' in my post... :rolleyes:

[Historico]

A few facts about the Anasazi, which should guide this discussion.

(1) The Anasazi practiced a fairly intensive irrigation which was based on check dams and flumes collecting rainfall runoff and snow melt from nearby mountain sides. Water was collected on small terraces and diverted onto small fields for agricultural production. It was not based on diverting water from rivers, unlike the Hohokam system of canals. The concerns about salinity seem to be unnecessary.

(2) While environmental degradation probably had a role in the abandonment of some of the larger settlements, particularly those in Chaco Canyon, this can be overstated. Probably the most important factor was a decline in rainfall in the 1200-1400 period - which most likely didn't have much to do with local deforestation as a similar trend occurred throughout much of the southwest and south central US at the time. As far as I know, the only real effect of deforestation on the Anasazi was a decline in the availability of trees suitable for use as building timbers, which resulted in a tendency for them to reuse old roof beams in new construction.

(3) At least based on historic Puebloan peoples, the Anasazi would have been very culturally conservative. Any major technological innovations (aqueducts, adoption of firearms), etc would probably have required an outside group to prompt and direct such activities. I would suggest that it would have to require a group from Mexico essentially taking over (either refugee Aztecs as I fancifully suggested) or renegade Spanish to change the direction of the culture enugh to preserve its independence in the later 16th and 17th centuries. The notion of an "Anasazi engineer" inventing such things on his seems too far fetched.


Interesting,
So it would probably would be dependent on escaped Aztecs or even and encounter with Corando's expediton. What would they see when they encountered these Technologically adavanced Anaszi?

[robertp6165]

A few facts about the Anasazi, which should guide this discussion.

(1) The Anasazi practiced a fairly intensive irrigation which was based on check dams and flumes collecting rainfall runoff and snow melt from nearby mountain sides. Water was collected on small terraces and diverted onto small fields for agricultural production. It was not based on diverting water from rivers, unlike the Hohokam system of canals. The concerns about salinity seem to be unnecessary.

That is true, to a certain extent. But not completely. First, not all Anasazi settlements used the type of irrigation you are speaking of...the ones in Chaco Canyon did, but others used local rivers for irrigation (Aztec Ruins in Aztec, New Mexico is an example of this...they irrigated with canals drawing water from the San Juan and Animas Rivers). Second, I don't know if you have ever had the opportunity to walk around in Anasazi country, but the soil and rocks in the area are quite high in alkali content. I used to live in Aztec, and if you go walking around in the countryside around there, you will notice that the ground seems to be sprinkled with a fine white powder which rises up in a thin cloud as you walk through it. This stuff is alkali dust, which would be deposited into the collection areas where the Anasazi collected their rainfall and mountain runoff, contaminating the water. The process might be slower than what occurred with the Hohokam, but it will still happen. We still don't know how to solve this problem...farmers in Arizona today are still dealing with it.

(2) While environmental degradation probably had a role in the abandonment of some of the larger settlements, particularly those in Chaco Canyon, this can be overstated. Probably the most important factor was a decline in rainfall in the 1200-1400 period - which most likely didn't have much to do with local deforestation as a similar trend occurred throughout much of the southwest and south central US at the time. As far as I know, the only real effect of deforestation on the Anasazi was a decline in the availability of trees suitable for use as building timbers, which resulted in a tendency for them to reuse old roof beams in new construction.

I agree the drop in rainfall (this seems to have been associated with the same weather patterns which produced the Little Ice Age in Europe...Europe also experienced fluctuations in rainfall which produced famine during this period) was the main culprit in the collapse of the Chaco Canyon settlements. And it no doubt played a significant role in the collapse of the other Anasazi settlements as well. It is hard to see how, given the limited technology of the Anasazi that they could have overcome this problem, any more than they could have overcome the salinity/alkalinity problem.

[Othniel]

That is true, to a certain extent. But not completely. First, not all Anasazi settlements used the type of irrigation you are speaking of...the ones in Chaco Canyon did, but others used local rivers for irrigation (Aztec Ruins in Aztec, New Mexico is an example of this...they irrigated with canals drawing water from the San Juan and Animas Rivers). Second, I don't know if you have ever had the opportunity to walk around in Anasazi country, but the soil and rocks in the area are quite high in alkali content. I used to live in Aztec, and if you go walking around in the countryside around there, you will notice that the ground seems to be sprinkled with a fine white powder which rises up in a thin cloud as you walk through it. This stuff is alkali dust, which would be deposited into the collection areas where the Anasazi collected their rainfall and mountain runoff, contaminating the water. The process might be slower than what occurred with the Hohokam, but it will still happen. We still don't know how to solve this problem...farmers in Arizona today are still dealing with it.

I agree the drop in rainfall (this seems to have been associated with the same weather patterns which produced the Little Ice Age in Europe...Europe also experienced fluctuations in rainfall which produced famine during this period) was the main culprit in the collapse of the Chaco Canyon settlements. And it no doubt played a significant role in the collapse of the other Anasazi settlements as well. It is hard to see how, given the limited technology of the Anasazi that they could have overcome this problem, any more than they could have overcome the salinity/alkalinity problem.Ok, Besides moving to Colorado how do we fix these problems?

[robertp6165]

Ok, Besides moving to Colorado how do we fix these problems?

I am not sure you can. The decline in rainfall which was associated with the Little Ice Age from 1200 to 1400 AD is going to happen no matter what you do. The Anasazi might get around that by damming the rivers in the region to create permanent reservoirs (kind of like the Salt River Project did here in Arizona) instead of relying so much on catching rainwater runoff. But, of course, such an approach would cause faster contamination of the soil by alkali and salt. The alkali/salinity problem is going to be there no matter what you do (as I said, even modern technology has not solved this problem, and it is likely that most of the land currently being irrigated in Arizona and New Mexico will be useless in a few centuries from now). It's kind of a catch-22 situation...the possible solution for one problem will make the other problem worse.

Some cultures are just unlucky enough to be located in areas where they can't survive for more than a few centuries. The desert Southwest is just a very inhospitable environment. It is amazing that the Anasazi were able to achieve what they did, given the very limited resources at their disposal.

[Othniel]

What about certain vegitables or plants that accuatly change the soil? like some type of pea?

[robertp6165]

What about certain vegitables or plants that accuatly change the soil? like some type of pea?

Well, if there were some type of plant that loved alkali and salt and absorbed them from the soil, that would be definitely a possibility. I am not a botanist, and maybe a member who is can tell us if such a thing exists. Based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the subject, I don't think such a thing does exist. Alkali and salt are poisonous to plants. That's why the Romans supposedly sowed the ground at Carthage with salt after they destroyed the city. If the alkali and salt content get high enough, plants just stop growing.

[Othniel]

Well certainly a few weeds do this...the only AH I can think of to keep this area from going bad is either a biological, or a geographical one. Lake Bonneville surving may prolong this certainly.

[robertp6165]

Well certainly a few weeds do this...the only AH I can think of to keep this area from going bad is either a biological, or a geographical one. Lake Bonneville surving may prolong this certainly.

Well, technically, Lake Bonneville did survive. It's called the Great Salt Lake now. ;)

But if Lake Bonneville survives at it's original extent (covering most of the Great Basin region in the Southwest), the entire character of the American Southwest changes. You probably have a fairly temperate region with lush forests in many areas instead of desert. The Anasazi as we know them certainly don't arise at all. A completely different culture, based on exploitation of the lake's resources, would arise instead.

And, given that the disappearance of the lake was pretty much ordained by the retreat of the glaciers at the end of the last ice age, short of ASB intervention, it is difficult to see how this could have happened.

But if it had happened, it would be fascinating to speculate as to what might have been. Possibly horses don't die out in the Americas, for example, and the natives have cavalry when the Spaniards arrive.

As for the weeds you speak of, if they do exist, I have not heard of them. But for the sake of argument, lets assume that a hypothetical weed which absorbs and metabolizes salt and alkali, depositing something useful like nitrogen as a byproduct into the soil, exists. The Anasazi discover that fields where this weed is allowed to grow among the crops produce more food than those where the weeds are removed. If they combined this with the idea of damming the rivers to create permanent reservoirs...assuming they have the technology and/or manpower to do such a thing...this could allow them to survive the droughts of the Little Ice Age and still be around when the Spanish arrive.

[Historico]

Wait a Second Robert, Let's not rule out the Lake Bonneville Possiblility,...Would the thickly forested region still produce gold and Silver? How would the Mesoamerican Civilizations conduct trade with the Bonneville Anaszi's and would it be easier for Coronado to travel through the thick forest instead of the Steaming Destert?

[robertp6165]

Wait a Second Robert, Let's not rule out the Lake Bonneville Possiblility,...Would the thickly forested region still produce gold and Silver? How would the Mesoamerican Civilizations conduct trade with the Bonneville Anaszi's and would it be easier for Coronado to travel through the thick forest instead of the Steaming Destert?

As it happens, I was just doing some research on Lake Bonneville, and it was up in northern Utah. It was part of a system of lakes that extended from Utah through Nevada into California. I don't know if it extended southward into Arizona and New Mexico or not. I haven't been able to locate a map of Arizona and New Mexico during the Pleistocene. But if such a system of lakes existed there, the same conditions would apply. If not, you might still have deserts in that region.

In answer to your question...the forests would not change the likelihood of gold and silver being there at all. I don't see how the existence of forests would affect trade all that much, except it might give the inhabitants of the southwest some more items to trade with other regions. Coronado would probably find the going easier in the forest than through the desert...he wouldn't have to worry about dying of thirst under the scorching sun, at least.

[Othniel]

I can see, three things it would provide. One is a defense from the north. Two is cleaner water, and three is wood. The last two produce more life but not the same culture.

I could however see a short term solution. Conquering and full subjugation of the Ute and Pi-ute nations. Along the Unita Moutains there is an acess of rivers, and the land is quite good for grazing animals (something they did not have en masse, but say taming of the mountain goats and rams, which our wild cousins to the Euorpean and asian equivalants.) and for fruit trees. Or at least a good staple of wood. Northern Utah might not get much rain, but the plant and animal life in the mountains is particullarly resiliant. Assuming that they are bright enough for the wider distrubution of food...well this may or may not work.

[Historico]

As it happens, I was just doing some research on Lake Bonneville, and it was up in northern Utah. It was part of a system of lakes that extended from Utah through Nevada into California. I don't know if it extended southward into Arizona and New Mexico or not. I haven't been able to locate a map of Arizona and New Mexico during the Pleistocene. But if such a system of lakes existed there, the same conditions would apply. If not, you might still have deserts in that region.

In answer to your question...the forests would not change the likelihood of gold and silver being there at all. I don't see how the existence of forests would affect trade all that much, except it might give the inhabitants of the southwest some more items to trade with other regions. Coronado would probably find the going easier in the forest than through the desert...he wouldn't have to worry about dying of thirst under the scorching sun, at least.

I think that is even better we have an thicly Forested Region to the north that the Anaszi could possible conquer with the help from the Aztecs, the Bonneville Natives and create and Viable Southwestern empire. They will have Horses, Gold & Silver, and Lumber to create be able to push the Spanish back to Mexico

[Melvin Loh]

Man, i thought this thread would be about the 1968 PUEBLO crisis !

[Othniel]

nope. tis so much more.

[Othniel]

Ok, what POD would have to be made in order to have the formation of a simular culture in what is now called Austria?