WI: Mary had a miscarriage?

[Hapsburg]

What if mary, mother of jesus, had a miscarriage and her son died. Suppose that the historical jesus was purely that: historical, not some sacred blah.
how would this affect history(i can tell it'll be pretty frikkn' big)

[David S Poepoe]

What if mary, mother of jesus, had a miscarriage and her son died. Suppose that the historical jesus was purely that: historical, not some sacred blah.
how would this affect history(i can tell it'll be pretty frikkn' big)

Isn't readily obvious to you - I guess not - that in the situation you are talking about no one would have written about it. He can't quite be 'historical' then.

Oh, course God wouldn't permit such a thing. Also the divergence could be big so great that is would be pretty hard to calculate. Tho its entirely like that the Grand Architect of the Universe plans for all contingencies. There's also Jesus' brother.

Thankfully there wouldn't then be a Holy Roman Empire to hear about! That is one great blessing that would be visited upon this world. Frankly, I know you are new and 'wet behind the ears', but I would regard such material as prime material for a flame war of sorts.

[Nik]

Like the 'Mithras' short-story that had a *smarter* Legionnary patrol cut them off at the pass during escape into Egypt...

IIRC, there was a follow-up, which probably holds record for series finale...

"Meanwhile, XIV stadia North..."

[Leej]

The great intergalactic Nelson lets loose his shirlling cry.

[Othniel]

What if mary, mother of jesus, had a miscarriage and her son died. Suppose that the historical jesus was purely that: historical, not some sacred blah.
how would this affect history(i can tell it'll be pretty frikkn' big)
Jesus's resurection would come mush earlier?

[Peter]

Isn't readily obvious to you - I guess not - that in the situation you are talking about no one would have written about it. He can't quite be 'historical' then.

Oh, course God wouldn't permit such a thing. Also the divergence could be big so great that is would be pretty hard to calculate. Tho its entirely like that the Grand Architect of the Universe plans for all contingencies. There's also Jesus' brother.

Thankfully there wouldn't then be a Holy Roman Empire to hear about! That is one great blessing that would be visited upon this world. Frankly, I know you are new and 'wet behind the ears', but I would regard such material as prime material for a flame war of sorts.

Wtf, didn't you get the instructions? :rolleyes:

[David S Poepoe]

Wtf, didn't you get the instructions? :rolleyes:

I certainly did. What I do find disappointing and distasteful is the language which several new members in the last 2-3 weeks are using. I do not know how old you are but it would be nice if you did act more mature.

[Peter]

I certainly did. What I do find disappointing and distasteful is the language which several new members in the last 2-3 weeks are using. I do not know how old you are but it would be nice if you did act more mature.

Actually I've been a member for over a year now, I think.

Something I found distasteful is people who can’t let go of their personal prejudice and superstition.

[Weapon M]

I certainly did. What I do find disappointing and distasteful is the language which several new members in the last 2-3 weeks are using. I do not know how old you are but it would be nice if you did act more mature.


Dave, that might be me. Just the postal worker and army veteran showing through. I never direct offensive language at anybody, but do use it a lot. My apologies if you or anyone else has been offended.

[David S Poepoe]

Dave, that might be me. Just the postal worker and army veteran showing through. I never direct offensive language at anybody, but do use it a lot. My apologies if you or anyone else has been offended.

Weapon M and Peter, thank you for you replies. However, you were not the ones that I was considering when I wrote what I did. For those of us that have been on this board for years, even in its previous incarnation, and also frequent s.h.w.i., this board has been relatively free of flame wars or objectionable topics. There have been situations where Ian has had to make an appearance, but those are usually in rare situations. In most cases we have always behaved as gentlemen (and ladies for those even rarer occasions), its just that some recent members are sullening the board.

I guess it would be polite to mention to them that use of rude language only under cuts there arguements, but I think that would be lost on them.

Regarding superstition, I thought Othniel's reply was particularly clever. I can give and take as much as anybody else, but I recognize potential flame war threads when I see it. I simply warned the poster.

David

P.S. My major pet peeve is nobody ever reviews what was discussed before, the same topics come up every few months.

[zoomar]

I would echo David's comments, which I suspect may have been prompted by the "wtf" -a needlessly offensive expresion to some of us older farts - as well as the reference to "sacred blah" in the initial post in this thread (which by its very timing to coincide with the Easter season seems somewhat flamish in toto.). It does seem to me that the incidence of explicit profanity and deliberately insulting terms has increased in this board. I'm sure we have all done this on occasion when we feel offended or want to make a point. I know I have.

Where IS Ian, anyway? It seems that he used to be a lot more active on the older board making sure potential flamewars were stopped.

[Othniel]

Regarding superstition, I thought Othniel's reply was particularly clever. I can give and take as much as anybody else, but I recognize potential flame war threads when I see it. I simply warned the poster.
Well at least it did as it was intended to do.

[Hapsburg]

you're not talking about the point are you?
f***....
either talk about the effects of the thing or don't post...

i'd think that since the new cult on the block will not have a martyr, they will fade into the dark, and judaisim will become prevalent to a point, maybe on par with the Greco-Roman relgion.
Don't start making biases about relgionss, as not everyone here are christian. keep that in mind...
aß

[zoomar]

you're not talking about the point are you?
f***....
either talk about the effects of the thing or don't post...

i'd think that since the new cult on the block will not have a martyr, they will fade into the dark, and judaisim will become prevalent to a point, maybe on par with the Greco-Roman relgion.
Don't start making biases about relgionss, as not everyone here are christian. keep that in mind...
aß

What new cult? The basic and most logical response to the initial question is if there were no Jesus there would be no "new cult on the block". Likely events are, in no particular order: (1) nothing we'd ever hear about in the history books, and Judaism remains a minor sect in the middle east or maybe dies out altogether, (2) the Christian savior will be born anyway, just by another woman and 33 years later maybe called Fred who Died For Our Sins, (3) Judaism may find and latch on to an alternate Messiah figure who will either lead them in rebellion against Rome, perhaps establish a synchretic blend of Jewish monotheism and some of the other mythic cults in the Roman Empire, or create any other possible religion, or (4) Graeco-Roman polythesism gradually gives away to a wonderful growth of rationalism and empirical science in AD250, Rome eventually rules the world as a social democracy, and we have scientific stations on Mars today. Whatever, Dave is right, there will not be Holy Roman Empire, Nicene Creed, or Easter Eggs. Of course, about six hundred years later, the Archangel Gabriel will have a nice long discussion with a certain Meccan trader and make sure we finally get the message right!

[Hapsburg]

maybe, but sans the messiah crap. not everyone believes in it. especially me...
ya overzealous right-wing neo-nazi republican bush worshiper
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

you're purpously trying to piss me off, aren't you?

[Othniel]

The people were ready for a messiah at that time. At least two instances before Jesus happened. The christians falling out completely with the jews happened when a rebellion commander was called messiah, and the Chrisitans won't accept anybody else. It may indeed launch into effect more messianic movements than before, the title being given to whomever fights for the Jews. In the end you have a much more soreigntist Judea.

[zoomar]

No, actually, I'm playing with you
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[Hapsburg]

i read an ATL at one site that has that the jews get help from Parthia, and rebel. then, they form their own nation under another guy named jesus. jesus of nazareth is declared a heretic and a traitor by this other jesus and is executed. its funny...

but, i'd like to see more people talk about this without such a religious bias. maniacal right-wing neo-nazis piss me off.

[Othniel]

I think we'll see more Masadas.

[Hapsburg]

a what?
wtf is a masada?
im new and havent been on the 'net' for a whole lotta time..

[zoomar]

Masada is a hilltop fortress where a large faction of zealous Jews in rebellion against Rome fought and died to the last man, woman, and child. Some believe they eventually killed themselves when their defeat became inevitable.

[Othniel]

Masada was a Roman fort ceased by a Jewish insurrection against the roman goverment. The seige of Masada was the end of that campaign that included the sacking of Jerusalem. Everyone commmitted sucide within the fortress and keep the Romans from giveing them a proper crucifiction.

[carlton_bach]

Masada was a Roman fort ceased by a Jewish insurrection against the roman goverment. The seige of Masada was the end of that campaign that included the sacking of Jerusalem. Everyone commmitted sucide within the fortress and keep the Romans from giveing them a proper crucifiction.

Well - everyone except the people who told the Romans what happened. And there is no indication the Romans would have crucified them. The whole affair was hardly high-profile. More likely sold off. Enslavement was the pattern in war, and the Romans perceived this as a proper war, not an insurrection.

Incidentally, it is great fun to read Josepgus 'against the grain' every now and then. A tale of terrorism, religious madness and betrayal that cost the lives of thousands of Rome's heroes....

[zoomar]

And I get a chuckle out of Tacitus' take on Christians...and that Nero's feeding them to the Lions was one of the GOOD things he did. At least I believe it was Tacitus.

[Hapsburg]

i like Nero. crazy romans are funny...plus he executed people that piss me off...

[Ian the Admin]

a what?
wtf is a masada?
im new and havent been on the 'net' for a whole lotta time..

Well guess what, you're not going to be on this particular part of the net for much longer if you don't stop hurling around insults. Behave and be civil.

[Hapsburg]

what insults? i just asked what a masada is, and someone just answered; thank u zoomar and Othniel.

[csa945]

what insults? i just asked what a masada is, and someone just answered; thank u zoomar and Othniel.

How about these?

ya overzealous right-wing neo-nazi republican bush worshiper

but...people from the southern US are redneck racist white-trash neonazi hick-ass hillbillies....
its not necisarilly derogatory, just true...

[Hapsburg]

but, most of them are. i'v met a lot of people from the deep south, and they are really nucking futz. they wear nazi regalia and shtuff like that all the time.
my mom tells me that bush is a nazi, and only wants oil. the republicans are right-wing, are they not?
i dont like nazis, maybe you do...i dont really care. i just know what ive heard and ive heard what i know.

[zoomar]

Then you don't know much. Sorry to tell you that.

[Hapsburg]

im just repeating what people have told me.
maybe i dont know much, but i heard a lot.

[zoomar]

Part of maturity is knowing when NOT to repeat what you've been told. Even old farts like me make this mistake sometimes. You seem to be making a career out of it.

[Hapsburg]

meh.
sorry, then.
don't have to go nuts over it...

[csa945]

I realize that you've apologized, but I don't think you grasp the depth of how deeply you have insulted some of us.

but, most of them are. i'v met a lot of people from the deep south, and they are really nucking futz. they wear nazi regalia and shtuff like that all the time.

Now, I am not from the Deep South, but rather the Mid-South (and you earlier included everyone in the South in your broad generalizations). My uncle is from Mississippi and is quite racist. He is the only such person I know, however. I have been to Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina a number of times. I have never seen Nazi regalia there. I have never in my life met a neo-Nazi.

my mom tells me that bush is a nazi, and only wants oil. the republicans are right-wing, are they not?

Your mother is ill-informed. I don't know where you are from (Germany??? Austria???), but there are many people here who share this view as well. The fact that people in America are allowed to publicly call the president a Nazi proves them to be incorrect. If he were a Nazi, anyone who public said so would be executed or in prison.

As for him only wanting oil, well that is also a point of contention, but it is primarily brought up by extremists. To my knowledge no moderate politician in the US, or even a liberal politician in the US whom people take seriously, has made such an accusation, even if they are critical of the president's policy on Iraq. I wouldn't doubt it if Dennis Kucinich had said such a thing during the 2004 primaries, but no one ever payed any attention to him except to get a laugh (he is the congressman who wanted to ban the use of mind-control satellites).

Most Republicans are conservatives, yes. "Right-wing" is a negatively connotated expression that is synonymous. However, many, some of the more influential ones in fact -- Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, Chuck Hagel--, can be quite liberal on some of issues.

Where Republicans generally stand relative to the center is debatable, a debate I'd rather not start, because it's likely to go nowhere. However, stating that anyone right-of-center is a Nazi is pure foolishness.

Now, I said comparable things about liberals when I was your age, stating that they were all Marxists and Communists. Now I know better, and I have repsect for individuals with whom I vehemently disagree. I can forgive your comments knowing that they are from an ill-informed youthful extremist. (I mean no offense by that description; As I said, I would have described myself in such a manner a few years ago)

i dont like nazis, maybe you do...i dont really care. i just know what ive heard and ive heard what i know.

Instead of just going by what your mother tells you, perhaps you can look things up on the internet before stating what you believe to be facts.

Here are some websites at which you could do some research:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

[Hapsburg]

actually,my mother never called bush a nazi, she just called him an idiot. im going on news photographs that have antiwar protestors holding signs that say "bush is a nazi"

but, anyway...
since i dont believe that there is a god or a messiah or any other things that i think are bull s___, i think that with no christianity, Greco-Roman religions will become prevalent. no HRE, and no fall or rome, because there'd be no religious strife between christians and Romans.

ROMA VICTOR!!

[zoomar]

This IS the internet after all. Maybe Hapsburg is really a 45-year old neo-nazi from Memphis. That would explain why he's met so many neo-nazis from the South and most of his TL's have to do with a huge and powerful Germany.


Hmmmm

[Othniel]

At least you aren't talking about the revial of Punic practices.

[Hapsburg]

meh?
i dont live in the south, nor have i ever met anyone from the deep south...
dunno where you got that idea.

and my ideas for a strong germany in my ATLs are the HRE, not "germany". while being german in population mostly and with mostly german culture, it isnt officially Germany, and is the "Holy Roman Empire".
also, in my TLs, wherever i have hitler, i have the HRE come in a whupp his ass...

[csa945]

meh?
i dont live in the south, nor have i ever met anyone from the deep south...
dunno where you got that idea.

Maybe from here, just a few posts ago:

but, most of them are. i'v met a lot of people from the deep south,

[Hapsburg]

so?
and that means that i really do know people in the deep south?
im from louisville, and havent traveled anywhere in the DS besides Florida and New Orleans. Ive been to Colorado to, but thats it.
so, dont be flingin' insults at me specifically, eh? i wont do it to if you dont do it to me, eh?

[csa945]

I'm not insulting you, just pointing out an inconsistency.

You said earlier you had met a lot of people from the deep south.

Then you said you had never met anyone from the deep south.

As you just said you've been to Florida and Louisiana, I'll assume it's the former.

[Hapsburg]

what?
no, really, ive never met a naziist person in my life.
i havent been to the south enough to meet one, thankfully.
so what if im inconsitent, its not against the governmental law...

[Leo Caesius]

Hoo boy. Something tells me that you're not going to last very long here.

Right wing generally has no more negative connotations than left wing; both are purely descriptive, and not even very accurate as such, but it the mouth of the right person it can sound pretty nasty (then again, some people can make just about anything sound like an insult).

In the mouth of a liberal (or "left-winger") it may be an insult. Then again, I have yet to see anything among the things that you have said that has indicated your political affiliation as either liberal or conservative, so I'll assume that you're as apolitical as you are impolitic.

[Hapsburg]

where i come from "right-wing" is an insult.
maybe where u r from its not, but where i am...it is...
back to subject, now...
hijackers...

[Othniel]

I'm not insulting you, just pointing out an inconsistency.

You said earlier you had met a lot of people from the deep south.

Then you said you had never met anyone from the deep south.

As you just said you've been to Florida and Louisiana, I'll assume it's the former.
Florida doesn't count. Everybody knows that Florida is different than most of the South (Its at least more Cuban than the rest.).

Of corse I live in a region of the US that rednecks are considered to be the same as cowboys and farmers. Not only that, but they are in the North. Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, and the Dakotas, need to be added to the Redneck list.... which out here means your an enviromentalist with a gun.

[csa945]

no, really, ive never met a naziist person in my life.
i havent been to the south enough to meet one, thankfully.

There are neo-Nazis plenty of places. They've made big news recently in Minnesota and Chicago, for shooting up a school and probable involvement in the murder of a judge's family.

And if the Louisville you live in is Louisville, Kentucky, then I believe most people would say you live in the South.

[csa945]

Florida doesn't count. Everybody knows that Florida is different than most of the South (Its at least more Cuban than the rest.).

Depends on what part you're talking about. Miami is not the South, but the panhandle, I believe, generally is.

[Hapsburg]

oh yeah...florida's the anomaly state in everything...

bush won it even tho most people did want him(i know he rigged it)

its was not really a slave state, but were a part of the CSA

its shaped like a d***

[Othniel]

And if the Louisville you live in is Louisville, Kentucky, then I believe most people would say you live in the South.
Kentucky counts as South. Ohio, Indianna, and Illinious are the begining of the north. Maryland is iffy. Missouri is iffy, Kansas is iffy, and then ther was cowboy country. A tough land, but a good land. Why aren't there more timelines dealing with that period of American History? The Expansion, Samuel Colt, Custard, *sigh* stupid civil war prevented a faster taming of the west.

[Hapsburg]

not really. below lexington is the south. above that is the borderline zone, as we call it.

[csa945]

Here is the website of the Rick A. Ross Institute, a non-profit organization that researches destructive cults. It has a list of new articles about the activities of neo-Nazis (http://www.rickross.com/groups/neonazis.html)

None, not one, of these articles involve events in the South. Many are in California and the Northeast, but most are in Europe.

[csa945]

i know he rigged it

you know, or you believe?

[Hapsburg]

ever seen "farenheit 911"

[Leo Caesius]

Interesting. My advisor comes from Louisville (or its environs) and two good friends also hail from that area. All three of them describe themselves as Southrons. Perhaps the range of the South has shrunk in recent years? Or could it just be that, once they find themselves in the cold heart of Yankee territory (Boston, MA), they feel a need to disassociate themselves from the North?

In any case, this might explain the otherwise irrational attitude you have towards southerners - they say that familiarity breeds contempt, after all.

[Hapsburg]

well, i call it the "borderline zone" because i hate the title of "southerner". its almost synonymous with the CSA and the kentucky inbreeding theory.
dont believe me, go on an internet game and say that you are from kentucky. watch the reaction. from it

[csa945]

ever seen "farenheit 911"

Then you also must know about the aliens about to invade the earth next week. That's what was on the cover of the Weekly World News at least, and I'm sure you know about Bill Clintons sexual encounters with alien life-forms. They covered that during his presidency.

The fact that you would cite that piece of propaganda as actual evidence shows how little you actually understand of the world.

Have you ever heard of "unbiased sources"? Some of them (independent journalistic organizations) investigated the Florida ballots after the election was over. Multiple times. They all found that Bush won. The "newspaper headline" pronouncing Gore's victory that Michael Moore showed in Fahrenheit 911 was actually a letter-to-the-editor. Moore rearranged the words and changed the font size to make it appear as though the paper was reporting a legitimate Gore victory.

[Hapsburg]

hm.
never heard of such a thing.
ah well, who cares.
im going to move to denmark, scotland, or vienna when i get my chance...and bush wont affect me while im there.
haaahhahahaah

[Leo Caesius]

Then you also must know about the aliens about to invade the earth next week. That's what was on the cover of the Weekly World News at least, and I'm sure you know about Bill Clintons sexual encounters with alien life-forms. They covered that during his presidency.Hey!! Don't bash the Weekly World News. They have the fifth largest circulation of any paper in America, I'll have you know.

[Othniel]

I'll just be president of the US by that time.

[Hapsburg]

back to the subject, all of us...
now.

[Leo Caesius]

back to the subject, all of us...
now.I'd rather talk about Kentucky...
The Kentucky Derby...
Kentucky Bluegrass...
Kentucky Bourbon...
The Hunters of Kentucky...

Why would you ever want to go to Scotland, Denmark, or Vienna? Think of all those stereotypes that you have about southerners. Now consider this - that's exactly how most of the people in those countries will think of you.

Trust me, you'll find yourself defending yourself and even your country more and more, until you can't take it any more and move back. It will be a very rude awakening, trust me.

[csa945]

I'd rather talk about Kentucky...
The Kentucky Derby...
Kentucky Bluegrass...
Kentucky Bourbon...
The Hunters of Kentucky...

Don't forget the Kentucky Headhunters. Awesome band . . . didn't have too many hits, though.

[Hapsburg]

well, my ancestors are from denmark, scotland, and Austria-Hungary. My ancestor on my mom's side was a Scottish Lord, George Hume, and my dad's side has Danish blood.
what makes you think i'll tell people there that im from KY?

anyway...
BACK ON TOPIC...
NOW.
do i have to repeat it a thousand times?

[zoomar]

I think the subject of this thread has become "Just who is this Hapsburg guy anyway and why does he say so many strange and inconsistent things?, like..."I'm from Louisville", followed by "I haven't been to the south enough to meet one", and then "where I come from 'right-wing' is an insult". Louisville, Kentucky is a place where right-wing is an insult? It's not in the south? Is this some kind of ATL you are from where Kentucky switched places with Indiana or something?

Anyway, Happy, you've shown elsewhere that you can have some interesting things to say. Just stay on topic and quit saying deliberately insulting things to people and you may still enjoy a long and prosperous career on this board. Otherwise get ready to meet Mike Collins...and I don't think you'll like it.

[Hapsburg]

even though you have said deliberately insulting things to me.
in the house i live in, right-wing is an insult.
and also, i dont consider KY a southern state. most people might, but I do not.

[Othniel]

Have you read some of the other stuff on this board? We make wisecracks at each other all the time.

[Hapsburg]

huh. actually, i havent...
well, thats inter...est..ing

get back on the title topic.

[David S Poepoe]

I'd rather talk about Kentucky...
The Kentucky Derby...
Kentucky Bluegrass...
Kentucky Bourbon...
The Hunters of Kentucky...


I'm very disappointed that you missed the most obvious:

Kentucky Colonel

[Othniel]

Kentucky Fried Chicken...sheesh.

[David S Poepoe]

Kentucky Fried Chicken...sheesh.

Actually I was thinking of the honorary title of a Kentucky Colonel.

http://www.kycolonels.org

[Ivan Druzhkov]

get back on the title topic.
Yeesh, okay, dad.

Have you read this (http://pages.prodigy.net/aesir/ijhnbb.htm), by John J. Reilly? His idea is that we'd end up with a sort of Neoplatonic-Gnostic hybrid, and things would probably get nastier.

The reason we've drifted is that this is something of an old staple of AH discussion, and one that's almost been done to death. Using as miscarriage as the POD, while possible, probably wasn't the most tasteful way to go about it either.

[Ian the Admin]

what?
no, really, ive never met a naziist person in my life.
i havent been to the south enough to meet one, thankfully.
so what if im inconsitent, its not against the governmental law...

well, my ancestors are from denmark, scotland, and Austria-Hungary. My ancestor on my mom's side was a Scottish Lord, George Hume, and my dad's side has Danish blood.
what makes you think i'll tell people there that im from KY?

anyway...
BACK ON TOPIC...
NOW.
do i have to repeat it a thousand times?

Okay, you're kicked.

I warned you a bunch of times that this hurling around criticisms of people and rude behavior was out of line here, and yet you're still treating this board as if it was basically a junior high cafeteria argument. Now you're making it clear you still Don't Get It, not only continuing to justify your insults, but taking the whole discussion into an off-topic rant about yourself and then *ordering* everyone else back on topic.

You can come back in a week if you're more polite.

[Aussey]

Okay, you're kicked.

I warned you a bunch of times that this hurling around criticisms of people and rude behavior was out of line here, and yet you're still treating this board as if it was basically a junior high cafeteria argument. Now you're making it clear you still Don't Get It, not only continuing to justify your insults, but taking the whole discussion into an off-topic rant about yourself and then *ordering* everyone else back on topic.

You can come back in a week if you're more polite.

heh, Ian, you have such a way with words.

[zoomar]

He now swims with Mike.