Alternative colonizer for West Africa

[Ridwan Asher]

I'm looking for the possibility for a European power other than France to colonize West Africa in the many ways similar to the way France did it IOTL. But who would be the most suitable candidate to replace France ?

Of course, there is (will be) one by Thande with the British Space-Filling Empire in his LTTW TL, but I wonder there is a candidate other than British to colonize West Africa roughly in the way and as long as French did IOTL....

[Cylon_Number_14]

Review AussieGuy's Ich Bin Ein Frankfurter for the maps of Africa in the later pages. He has Germany colonize West Africa, originally from *Togo through *Nigeria all the way to French Gabon, and has Namibia; by the end of alt-WW1 it has acquired all the French land down to Angola plus all Morocco and has purchased eastern Angola so that it owns almost the whole African coast in an unbroken line from the Pillars of Hercules to Walvis Bay.

[Ridwan Asher]

Review AussieGuy's Ich Bin Ein Frankfurter for the maps of Africa in the later pages. He has Germany colonize West Africa, originally from *Togo through *Nigeria all the way to French Gabon, and has Namibia; by the end of alt-WW1 it has acquired all the French land down to Angola plus all Morocco and has purchased eastern Angola so that it owns almost the whole African coast in an unbroken line from the Pillars of Hercules to Walvis Bay.

By "in the way French did it IOTL" means I want it to colonize interior West Africa from scratch. And only focus on the West Africas the French did colonize IOTL, which means those Western Sahara Countries and some surrounding states(extension to Chad is optional though). And the process must be happening as fast as the French did it, and lasting as long as the OTL French rule on it, too. But the last one is because I want to keep any part of it from end up lastingly being settled by people from the colonizers' homeland country, so that is semi-optional. Just so as long as you maintain my last condition.

[Sapiento]

I made a map with a Hansa influenced West Africa. Link:
http://sapiento.deviantart.com/art/Alternate-West-Africa-120550384

[Ridwan Asher]

I made a map with a Hansa influenced West Africa. Link:
http://sapiento.deviantart.com/art/Alternate-West-Africa-120550384

Nice map ! :cool:

But to bad for you, Algeria must be included.... :o

[Hawkeye]

Maybe an independent/lucky Aragon?

[Ridwan Asher]

The map below shows my basic aim :

- Blue indicates must have territories,
- Some of the lighter blues must be included, and
- Cyan territories are optional for additions.

[Ridwan Asher]

Maybe an independent/lucky Aragon?

Just as long as nothing got permanently settled by immigrants from homeland and/or Christianized.

[AuroraBorealis]

By "in the way French did it IOTL" means I want it to colonize interior West Africa from scratch. And only focus on the West Africas the French did colonize IOTL, which means those Western Sahara Countries and some surrounding states(extension to Chad is optional though). And the process must be happening as fast as the French did it, and lasting as long as the OTL French rule on it, too. I want to keep any part of it from being settled by people from the colonizers' homeland country.


the only other power that would be positioned to do so and have the capability if a number of events did not happen would be Spain. There has to be greater stability in Spain through the 19th C though so the Carlist Wars have to be averted.

Thus Ferdinand does not attempt to amend the succession law and name Isabella II his sucessor. Don Carlos becomes King of Spain upon his death inn '33 without opposition from Maria Christina. The Liberals in Spain will stilll be a problem for him of course and he may be deposed in the '48 rebellions Spain adopting a more liberal constitution at the time under the guise of a purely Constitutional monarchy.

Even then though, the French are already in Dakar and Algerie but perhaps this Spain can get its foot in Guinea or Ivory coast and work inland through the kingdoms and cheifdoms of the Upper Niger establishing protectorates. mind you the French will have to have their attn diverted somewhere else, Indochina or the congo basin perhaps, East Africa. The Spanish could try to exercise their claims more fully along the coast between the Niger and the Ogooue. Such a TL would probably result inthe African coast getting divied up earlier between Britain, France, Spain and Portugal, with the Interior waiting until much later. But without an access point on the coast there won't be much for Italy or Germany left.

I don't think the Spanish could project as far inland as the French though without a considerable amount of luck and events going there way and generally with the benign acceptance of France. Of course post 1860 they might be able to leverage the newly independent Italians somehow to stengthen their hand.

Of course, though if Carlos is King in Spain in the 1830's do the Bourbon's necessarily have to fall from grace in France...The Duke of Angouleme does not abdicate but does accept a more liberal constitution and is eventually succeeded by his nephew in due course.

that could perhaps lead to a Franco - Spanish partnership where Africa is concerned. Defined spheres of influence for both. or areas of Co-protection. Its not like it is not without precedent in OTL. New Hebrides for instance. I am actually considering a no Carlist Wars option for something I am working on.

[wilcoxchar]

Just as long as nothing got permanently settled by immigrants from homeland and/or Christianized.
Ummmm...then it wouldn't be the way the French did it. There was a lot of immigration into Algeria during the 19th century. Also, how do you think much of the Sahel region became Christian?

[Ridwan Asher]

Algeria and Dakar must be included.....

[Ridwan Asher]

1) Ummmm...then it wouldn't be the way the French did it. There was a lot of immigration into Algeria during the 19th century.

2) Also, how do you think much of the Sahel region became Christian?

1) There can be some attempts to.... just don't have it have lasting success, and decolonization must be happening eventually.

2) Mali ? Senegal ? Niger ? Mauritania ? Guinea ? Ivory Coast ?

At least some of them has Christian minority yes, but that's about it.

[wilcoxchar]

2) Mali ? Senegal ? Niger ? Mauritania ? Guinea ? Ivory Coast ?
Benin is majority Christian, Ivory Coast has almost as many Christians as Muslims, and in Burkina Faso almost one quarter of the population are Christian.

[Ridwan Asher]

Benin is majority Christian, Ivory Coast has almost as many Christians as Muslims, and in Burkina Faso almost one quarter of the population are Christian.

Fair enough. I was thinking mostly about the interior back then. If it's just about that scale than it's okay, but I prefer to keep the spread of Christianity minimal.

[Imperator Frank]

I'm looking for the possibility for a European power other than France to colonize West Africa in the many ways similar to the way France did it IOTL. But who would be the most suitable candidate to replace France ?

Of course, there is (will be) one by Thande with the British Space-Filling Empire in his LTTW TL, but I wonder there is a candidate other than British to colonize West Africa roughly in the way and as long as French did IOTL....
Italy!Please

[Umbric Man]

Portugal.

They held many more posts and trading towns in the late 1400s than they did by the end of decolonization in the 1960s, and assuming somehow they stayed powerful enough to keep the French, British, and Dutch out of the coast in the intervening centuries from the 15th century on, can just expand in a multitude of ways inland.

I mean, Elmina, Cueta, Maxaguan, Fernando Po...and many more I probably can't rattle off the top of my head.

[vultan]

Maybe Spain somehow.

[Beedok]

Austria-Hungary with an early enough POD, and maybe some italian terrtiory, coud be plausable.

[Polish Eagle]

Spain, instead of supporting Columbus, continues the Reconquista into Africa, spreading the faith by the sword. Were the Mali still big at this time? If so, plunder from that conquest could put almost as much money into Spain as the Conquest of the New World.

[Wolfpaw]

Germany, Spain, and Italy could probably snatch something. Maybe even Portugal around the Guinea Bissau region.

[Codae]

Hmmm...

1482--The "accidental" death of Pope Sixtus IV sends the Papal States into deep disorder. Venice, meanwhile, absorbs the Duchy of Ferrara. Louis XI of France does not die.

1485--France (as well as Naples) intervenes in the Papal States, installing a French Pope. Let's call him Sixtus V. Papal territory has been lost, however, primarily to Venice and Naples.

1487--Venice invades Milan, prompting Pope X to declare a Holy League against Venice. This includes the Papacy, France, Spain, Milan, and Naples.

1488--Duke Francis II of Brittany does not die. The Holy League descends upon Venice, which is barely able to hold itself against the alliance. However, Ferdinand and Louis (of Spain and France, respectively) quarrel over the spoils, leading to the breakup of the Holy League. The Spanish army heads south and sacks Rome, ejecting Pope Sixtus V. In his place, a Spanish Pope Sixtus VI is elected. France declares this election coerced, and establishes an antipapacy at Avignon. Milan and Naples retreat from Venice.

1489--Louis dies, leaving his 19-year-old son Charles VIII to rule France. England allies with Spain and attacks the country.

1490--Naples, with Venetian support, invades Sicily.

1492--France defeats Spain. Castile and Aragon are split apart, with the latter being divided between France (the mainland) and Naples (the islands), although Naples never came close to taking Sardinia in the war. England and France make peace, keeping the status quo between them. No Spanish expedition discovers the New World. Philip, son of Emperor Maximilian, dies in a riding accident.

1493--Charles, king of France, marries Margaret of Austria.

1494--King Ferdinand I of the Two Sicilies (formerly Naples) dies, succeeded by his son Alfonso. (OTL)

1495--King Alfonso II of the Two Sicilies dies, succeeded by his son Ferdinand. (OTL)

1496--King Ferdinand II of the Two Sicilies dies, succeeded by his uncle Frederick. (OTL) The kingdom is invaded by both Genoa and Venice. (Not OTL)

1497--Pope Sixtus VI also commands an invasion of the Two Sicilies, but promptly dies. He is succeeded by Pope Sixtus VII, although the Avignon antipapacy has not been abolished. Milan and Modena declare war on Venice.

1498--The Ottomans begin war against Venice. Vasco da Gama leads a Portuguese expedition to India.

1499--Emperor Maximilian falls off a bridge and sustains fatal injuries. On his deathbed, he names as his heir his son-in-law, Charles VIII of France. England and Castile, as well as various German states, quickly find an excuse for war against France.

1500--King Henry VII of England is elected Emperor. Milan and Venice end their war when they divide Modena and Mantua between them. Milan then invades Genoa.

1503--Pope Sixtus VII dies. He is briefly succeeded by Pope Sixtus VIII, and then by Pope Sixtus IX. These papal elections are under a strong Sicilian influence. Castile takes back Aragon; England maintains a foothold on the continent, centered on Calais. The map of Germany gets redrawn too much for me to want to discuss.

1504--The Two Sicilies take Corsica; Milan conquers the city of Genoa itself. Genoan Aegean possessions are taken over by "Christopher I Colombo, Count of Chios", whose claims are entirely self-invented.

1505--Portugal announces the discovery of a previously unknown continent in the west. Nobody follows up on it.

1508--Pope Sixtus IX dies. When his successor, Sixtus X, is a Neapolitan, Emperor Henry establishes another antipapacy at Canterbury.

1509--Emperor Henry dies, succeeded as both King of England and Holy Roman Emperor by his son Arthur.

1512--Charles VIII dies, succeeded by his son Louis XII. Austria at this point has been captured by Bavaria, and enemies are pressing into France on all borders except the Italian. Louis sues for peace, losing Aragon to Castile, Austria to the Wittelsbachs, and the remainder of the Habsburg inheritance (plus part of the French northeast) to the Tudors. Many consider Louis weak.

1513--Venice and the Ottomans sign peace accords. The Ottomans gain various islands and Peloponnesian strongholds. England outfits an expedition west to explore "Antilia", as the Portuguese called it.

1514--The English expedition returns, reporting fish in abundance and a possible strait toward China. It is the mouth of the St. Lawrence. Meanwhile, Portuguese ships begin reaching China.

1515--The English discover that their passage is not a strait through the continent, but merely a large river mouth. The Two Sicilies make a failed assault on Ceuta, attempting to secure the Straits of Gibraltar.

I'm out of time. Maybe I'll continue this later. I'd better, because otherwise it won't be relevant to the thread.

By the way, feel free to point out any errors.

[Ridwan Asher]

^ Hmm interesting so far...... :)

Just in case I'd like to point out the big role of Industrial Age technology in OTL's French conquest of the region.

[Ridwan Asher]

Italy!Please

Portugal.

They held many more posts and trading towns in the late 1400s than they did by the end of decolonization in the 1960s, and assuming somehow they stayed powerful enough to keep the French, British, and Dutch out of the coast in the intervening centuries from the 15th century on, can just expand in a multitude of ways inland.

I mean, Elmina, Cueta, Maxaguan, Fernando Po...and many more I probably can't rattle off the top of my head.

Maybe Spain somehow.

Austria-Hungary with an early enough POD, and maybe some italian terrtiory, coud be plausable.

Spain, instead of supporting Columbus, continues the Reconquista into Africa, spreading the faith by the sword. Were the Mali still big at this time? If so, plunder from that conquest could put almost as much money into Spain as the Conquest of the New World.

Germany, Spain, and Italy could probably snatch something. Maybe even Portugal around the Guinea Bissau region.

If I'm allowed to be frank, I'm actually mostly interested to see a Germanic European nation doing this. So either British, German, and the one I'm most espcially eager to see : The Dutch !!

[Onyx]

How about Denmark? thye had some holdings around West Africa, as well as Sweden, also the Dutch should own at least one there.

I can see Denmark have the Ivory Coast, and the Dutch for Benin because they had a colony there for a time

What about Portugal, the Portuguese had a strip of land in the Mauratanian Coastline in the 1600s but probably left

[AuroraBorealis]

How about Denmark? thye had some holdings around West Africa, as well as Sweden, also the Dutch should own at least one there.

I can see Denmark have the Ivory Coast, and the Dutch for Benin because they had a colony there for a time

What about Portugal, the Portuguese had a strip of land in the Mauratanian Coastline in the 1600s but probably left

I thought it was the Portuguese in Benin, Ouidah.
Dutch, Danes and Brits all have their holdings primarily on the Gold Coast. Ivory coast is relatively untouched because its lack of usable ports. ditto Guinea. the Brits also have holdings in Sierra Leone and the Gambia as early as of the turn of 1800. France has had their control of Goree and the Senegal valley (Saint Louis) and the coast of the Maures to Cape Nouadhibou confirmed at the Congress of Vienna. so you are going to need a very far back pod or someone is going to need to be evicted.

[Franciscus Caesar]

Italy!Please

YES!! ITALIA would be the best candidate. keep venetian naval power strong and it could be easily done!

[vultan]

YES!! ITALIA would be the best candidate. keep venetian naval power strong and it could be easily done!
Since you like this concept so much, why don't YOU make a TL out of it?:rolleyes:

[Franciscus Caesar]

Since you like this concept so much, why don't YOU make a TL out of it?:rolleyes:

i would, but honestly.. i'm new and, though i'm sure i have the ability to do so, am kind of self conscious about it. i would rather have someone write, or write in callaboration with someone. ur remarks?

[Ridwan Asher]

Bump.

Remember : Algeria, West Sudan and Dakar must be included in this [insert a European country other than France/preferably northern Europeans] West Africa.