The Rains Of Shiloh April 1862

[Jason Sleeman]

P.O.D By early afternoon on April 1862 A fierce rainstorm blows in over the battlefield. turning the fields and the roads to a muddy glue. Albert Sidney Johnston is not wounded as per OTL and the rains will prevent Buell's army from joining Grant. The rain stops during the morning of April 7th. Buell sends a message to Grant stating that he will be unable to reach him before the morning of April 9th.

Can A.S Johnston's attack defeat Grants forces? and if so how might this affect the overall picture of the war?

Thoughts?
Jason Sleeman

[Jason Sleeman]

2 days and no reply, perhaps I'm covering old ground again? :confused:

[Justin Green]

Yeah, I tried posting the WI the Confederate forces west of the Mississippi would have arrived to fight at Shiloh if they had simply left ealier like they were ordered too, and not attacked and lost at Pea Ridge. Basically Johnston would have nearly 20,000 more men. A better strategy could have been work out, instead of a simple mass charge, and Grant forces at Shiloh destroyed or captured on the first day. Alot of people disagreed though, but I think that they couldnt really envision the changes to the battle. It would be radically different from OTL.

[DMA]

Sorry I missed this earlier. So a big storm before the battle of Shiloh. And Buell is slowed down. Guess what? So is Johnston's army. But wait there's more!

As Napoleon learnt at Waterloo, much to his chagrin, wet soggy ground is excellent for the defense. In other words, the attack itself would have been slowed down. And far more importantly, the Southern artillery would have been stuck in the mud & unable to support any attack.

Ironically, the mud would have also stopped many of the Union troops from running. So you may get the situation that most of the Union troops, realising that they're stuck where they are, actually stand & fight.

Either way the battle is a lot harder than OTL. Grant's army can't run whilst the Rebs are very slow in attacking. Furthermore the Union will have their artillery whilst the Rebs won't. I'd expect a bar fight type of scenario. In other words a slugging match. Alas for the Rebs, they suffer higher casualities than the OTL. More importantly, in the end, both sides will exhaust themselves, but Grant's army will still hold the field. I'd expect the Rebs will later withdraw knowing that they can't hold out against the Union when Buell arrives with fresh troops the next day or so.

[simonbp]

I've actually been there (Shiloh) in the rain; most of the battleground is open, mud-prone grass. Cannon would be limited, but could probably move through the woods....

Simon ;)

[DMA]

I've actually been there (Shiloh) in the rain; most of the battleground is open, mud-prone grass. Cannon would be limited, but could probably move through the woods....

Simon ;)


On the contrary, much of the battlefield isn't open. It's a complete mix of woodland & a few open fields. One of the reasons why you had a superb Union defence at the Hornet's Nest is due to this fact. Also the Hornet's Nest is also an example of where the Reb artillery was left behind, due to the woodlands, & the Union was able to hold off against a number much greater than themselves.

Now add in enough rain that'll turn the ground into mush, which is what I'd dare say Jason meant when he said Buell is signifcantly slowed, as against a morning shower, & the action at the Hornet's Nest would basically be repeated all over the battlefield at Shiloh. Now at some point the Rebs might be able to finally get their artillery into the action, but it'll be too little, too late.

Technically the battle will end in stalemate due to mutual exhaustion. But then Buell's forces will eventually arrive whilst the Rebs will have no reserve. At this point, either the Rebs will withdrawl, or Grant will counterattack as per OTL. Either way, Grant can claim a victory albeit an even more costly one than the OTL.

[Jason Sleeman]

I wonder if seeing themselves immoble and unable to press forward with an attack and fully aware that Buell is on his way, Might not Johnston decide to entrench after the first day. I'm assuming that Johnston is smart enough not to commit his men in futile attack in a muddy quagmire after being repulsed by Grant's forces. A trench defense might allow a stalemate to take place.

[DMA]

I wonder if seeing themselves immoble and unable to press forward with an attack and fully aware that Buell is on his way, Might not Johnston decide to entrench after the first day. I'm assuming that Johnston is smart enough not to commit his men in futile attack in a muddy quagmire after being repulsed by Grant's forces. A trench defense might allow a stalemate to take place.


Good point. I wonder though, considering we're talking 1862, whether a general like S.A. Johnston would have entrenched?

Furthermore, if he had had waited, the Rebs would be outnumbered by 41 000 to 67 000, due to the very fact that Buell will arrive at some point, albeit a day or two later...

[Jason Sleeman]

No A.S Johnston was old school... DMA once again i must concur with your assessment. It would have been a Napoleonic style advance and quite possibly even more of a bloody disaster for the South. And were it so it may have signicantly accelerated Grant's advancement.

well once again one of my P.O.Ds proves implausible..... sigh back to the drawing board :D

Thanks All

Jason Sleeman-Professional Glamrocker

[DMA]

No A.S Johnston was old school... DMA once again i must concur with your assessment. It would have been a Napoleonic style advance and quite possibly even more of a bloody disaster for the South. And were it so it may have signicantly accelerated Grant's advancement.

well once again one of my P.O.Ds proves implausible..... sigh back to the drawing board :D

Thanks All

Jason Sleeman-Professional Glamrocker


Actually Jason, why not stick with the heavy storm etc, so yes Buell's forces are delayed by a day or two, but have it so Sherman believes what his picketts are telling him (instead of completely rejecting their reports as per OTL) & that the Rebs are advancing on his position. Grant, as per OTL, is up in Savannah that morning so Sherman takes the initiative & attacks. In other words teh mud now works against the Union completely.

Furthermore, Sherman's attack is, more or less, an adhoc affair (as it has to be organised quickly with Sherman thinking that he might gain an advantage & surprise the Rebs), but it smashes piecemeal into Johnston's highly organised attack. As a result the Union Army of the Tennesse is more or less destroyed indetail whilst Grant is left with a mess by the time he arrives (not too disimilar to OTL). However, because of Sherman's actions, about the only thing Grant can do, by the time he reaches Shiloh, is order an evacuation of what's left of his army & retreat across the river to meet up with Buell.

Now although Johnston gains a victory at Shiloh, his army is pretty well exhausted by this stage &, needless to say, the Union controls the river, so any further Reb advance is more or less impossible anyway. So you get a Rebel victory followed by a stalemate.

Is any of that any help?

[Hyperion]

If it rains in the Tennessee-Northern Mississippi region a couple of days before the battle, it could keep the Confederate troops from moving at all. The effects on the battle and would depend on the timing and how much area was covered by the rain. It's possible that everything below Grant's army and the Confederate troops get covered in water, but the area the Buell is coming through gets little, if any, and he can get to Shiloh before the battle. If Buell and his forces had arrived before the battle and he was in command of the Union forces at the start of the battle, how could that effect the outcome?

[Jason Sleeman]

Hyperion,


I suspect being outnumbered by over 25,000 men Johnston would not attack and would beat a hasty retreat back to Corinth and perhaps seek another opportunity.


DMA, O.K lets try your scenario. I agree Sherman could be headstrong enough to get himself into serious trouble. O.K Johnston wins at high cost
lets say a few thousand fewer casualties than OTL battle of Shiloh. Here's how I could see it.

- Halleck is furious and sees this as his chance to remove Grant, Sherman is revered for his "brave stand but is wounded by shrapnel in the chaos of battle and his wounds will put him out of field action for at least 6 months.

-Buell assumes field command and prepares to land the combined forces 59,000 effective troops at Pittsburg Landing for a second go

Meanwhile A.S Johnston recieves reinforcements from Earl Van Dorn's force across the river bringing his effective force to nearly 50,000

-stage is now set for Second Shiloh April 23rd 1862

Weather is clear 60 degrees, and the ground is dry

Buell's attack is fully anticipated by Johnston who procures the best ground and prepares defensive positions.

who wins this one folks?

Jason

[DMA]

A Shiloh 2 under Buell's command?

To be honest I haven't got a clue as I know very little about Buell's command abilities. At least there won't be any Reb surprise attack that's for sure.

To me, thus, it all depends who attacks whom. The Union, after such an earlier defeat, I'd say would be cautious. Yet they may still land at Pittsburg Landing (not too disimilar to OTL), but would probably form up along Grant's OTL final position as this was a very good defensive line.

If Buell can't land at Pittsburg Landing, then it'll be to the north at Crump's Landing. Either way, though, the Union will be cautious & careful in their approach. Buell, & this is the only thing I really know about his generalship skills, will take his time & be careful in his advance. Once the picketts have made contact, he'll probably go onto the defence.

From this point, it really depends who goes onto the offensive. So if I was go make a guess, whoever attacks loses the battle.

[Jason Sleeman]

Hard to say although given Northern politics in such a situation I would say Buell would be compelled to make an attack although perhaps such a slim numerical advantage would prevent him from doing so.

Johnston could bide his time after a victory to seek an opportunity or he could hold his ground. If the Union wanted to take the rail junctions at Corinth Miss, they would be compelled to meet the Rebel army in the vicinity of Shiloh.

I agree again with DMA. the attacker will lose and Buell will be compelled to play that role.

Result - 2nd Shiloh- April 23rd 1862

Buell assaults the Rebel positions- his strategy to try to outflank Hardee on the left which almost succeeds until N.B Forrest arrives with his dismounted cavalry to stem the advance

the diversionary attack on the Rebel center is costly for the yankees and Buell's assault peters out by 1pm

at 1:10 PM Breckinridge leads a counter assault which routs Buell's force back to Pittsburg Landing. Union forces withdraw northward under the protection of the gunboats on the evening of the 23rd

Forces Engaged- Buell U.S:59,123
-Johnston CSA 49,874

Casualties U.S 11,121
CSA 6,597

In the aftermath of 2nd Shiloh Johnston shadows Buell until the later halts his Army near Mufreesboro TN on May 2nd 1862

Thoughts?

Jason

[DMA]

Well if Buell does attack, it'll be a Union defeat. That wouldn't surprise me. So I can agree there, although I'm not confident at all that Buell will attack (mind you I'm making that decision based upon my limited knowledge of Buell fore other than the fact that he was slow & cautious.

But Buell wouldn't withdraw any further than Savannah. The USN still controls the river so Johnston is stuck south of Savannah whilst Buell turns the town into a fortress. We get back to stalemate.

An interesting butterfly effect here could be the future of Grant. Afterall, technically he didn't lose at First Shiloh, it was Sherman, & at Second Shiloh Buell is defeated. Grant is still there, thus, on the sidelines & hasn't lost a battle yet. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Lincoln orders Halleck to reinstate Grant to army command.

Maybe Shiloh 3 is coming up? Grant v Johnston. If such is the case, my money is on Grant. Expect an operation similar to Vicksburg.

[Jason Sleeman]

well two gaps in my knowledge prevent me from going further forward with this beyond 2nd shiloh

DMA- where exactly is Savannah in relation to Shiloh?

Also i'm not familiar enough with U.S riverine operations of that period to devise a Rebel POD counterweight to deal with the gunboat fleet controlling the river

do the rebels even possess any vessels or batteries in the area with which they could contest control?

I'll need some info on these points if I am to proceed

thanks all

Jason

[Hyperion]

Would Johnston even know that Buell had arrived if Buell got to the area before the 1st battle of Shiloh began, say 5 hours before the battle? Just because the Union could put more men into the fight doesn't mean the Rebs wouldn't back down. In a lot of major battles the Union had more men, and it didn't help.

[DMA]

Savannah is about 6 miles upstream, on the Tennessee River, from Pittsburg Landing on the eastern side of the river. Considering the size of the river around here, there's next to nothing, other than prayer, which the Rebs could do to stop the USN controlling the river.

The Union's gunboats were more than capable of keeping the Rebs honest. They would have had a pretty tough time crossing the river (impossible I'd say). Furthermore, even if they could cross somewhere else, where the USN wasn't around, Savannah could still be held & supplies brought into the town via the river.

Pushing Buell back to Murfreesboro is unlikely insofar as the distance involved. We're talking at least 100 miles. But if Buell was going to withdraw over such a long distance, it'll be north along the river towards Fort Donelson. That route would be safer, ensuring one flank is protected by the river, whilst Fort Donalson itself would be in Union hands & thus a safer option overall.

However, I don't think Buell will withdraw any further than Savannah for reasons stated earlier. It's safer to fortify Savannah & wait for reinforcements (akin to Chattanooga after the Battle of Chickamauga). Withdrawing from Savannah would also ensure Buell's sacking by Lincoln having lost, not only a battle, but also a large area of territory. Either way, though, I'd say Buell will be sacked & possibly Grant reinstated.

[DMA]

Would Johnston even know that Buell had arrived if Buell got to the area before the 1st battle of Shiloh began, say 5 hours before the battle? Just because the Union could put more men into the fight doesn't mean the Rebs wouldn't back down. In a lot of major battles the Union had more men, and it didn't help.


Yes, this is true, but you have to take into account the area around Shiloh. It was a mix of open farm paddocks & woodland. So what? I hear you say. Well it's where they can camp everyone. Afterall a camp of 67 000 or so men is going to be pretty big. We are talking about the population of a city here. Now as it was, not all of Grant's men could be camped together. Only four of the six divisions were together when the Rebs attacked at Shiloh - that's Sherman, Prentiss, McClernand & Hulbut. The division of WHL Wallace was to the north at Pittsburg Landing, whilst the division of L. Wallace was more than four miles away at Crump's Landing.

Now considering the OTL camping arrangements, & the restrictions thereof, you'll discover that Buell's men won't be able to camp at Shiloh as there won't be any space for them. Instead, you'll find that they'll be spread out towards the north. That'll mean another division or two at Pittsburg Landing & the rest up at Crump's Landing.

Yet how does this effect the battle?

Well it'll mean that the OTL battle is more or less repeated as Buell's divisions are not involved with the initial Reb attack. Instead they, along with the two divisions belonging to the two Wallace's, are well are truely forewarned. So I'd imagine the WHL Wallace's division will establish their OTL defence line at Pittsburg Landing, but be reinforced immediately by two of Buell's divisions (as they were camped nearby). Later in the day, this defence line is further reinforced by L. Wallace's division plus the remaining two divisions of Buell's army. In other words, this defensive line is three to four divisions stronger that the OTL.

The result of the battle will more or less mirror the OTL. The Reb attack overwhelms the Union defenders at first, but grinds to a halt. When the Reb attack is reorganised, in the afternoon, to purse the remaining Union men off the field at Shiloh, it runs into the final OTL Union defence line at Pittsburg Landing. Here, the Rebel attack is blown away & the Rebs have to withdraw to their OTL line. The next morning, Grant counter-attacks with overwhelming numbers. The battle ends as per OTL.

[Hyperion]

How about this: In the OTL, when Grant's army originally arrived in the area, before Buell's army arrived, he went about training his men, and didn't set up any serious defensive positions. What would establishing better defenses and better lookouts do to him?

[Jason Sleeman]

Johnston would have a tough time dislodging Grant if he were prepared to recieve an attack

[Jason Sleeman]

DMA- so a 2nd Donelson might be a feasible way to continue then?

thanks for the geographical info btw.

[DMA]

How about this: In the OTL, when Grant's army originally arrived in the area, before Buell's army arrived, he went about training his men, and didn't set up any serious defensive positions. What would establishing better defenses and better lookouts do to him?


I agree with Jason. Johnston would have faced an even tougher battle. The result would be a Union victory, unless Sherman reacts the way I posted earlier. Don't forget, for the entire morning of OTL Shiloh, Grant was in Savannah. Basically Sherman & Prentiss were in charge.

[DMA]

DMA- so a 2nd Donelson might be a feasible way to continue then?

thanks for the geographical info btw.


Well the only problem here is I don't believe that Buell will retreat to Fort Donelson. He'll stay at Savannah. There are far too many advantages in keeping Savannah & this is besides the fact that he'll have orders not to retreat. And even if Buell is sacked at some point, & Grant put back in charge (which would probably be the case), you can bet your last dollar that Grant won't withdraw. The most likely thing is a Third Shiloh. It'll be Grant v Johnston. Grant wins.

Now the long term effects from all these engagements out west is bad for the Rebs. They can't replace their losses, but the Union can. In fact the west of the Confederacy could fall to the Union much earlier than OTL by at least a year, if not two.

[Jason Sleeman]

might take alien space bats to pull of a southern victory momentum in april 1862.

it seems even if they won a third shiloh without control of the tennesee they can't follow up

whats more, as DMA pointed out the south can't absorb the casualties

if it came to a 3rd shiloh which Johnston lost he would be forced to back away from Grant possibly leading to an earler Vicksburg unless some masterpiece of Southern tactics were to come into play

i still think it possible that Halleck may try to assume command himself which may be the only hope for Johnston to salvage his situation

[DMA]

Well Grant's future is really up to Lincoln. Even in the OTL, as you'd know, Lincoln took a lot of flack over Grant. So the same is repeated here. In Grant's favour is still the fact that he technically hasn't lost a battle yet. So all Lincoln does, to get Halleck out of the way, is to promote him elsewhere akin to the OTL.

Grant is thus reinstated, gets some reinforcements, & starts again from Savannah. Johnston has to hang around Shiloh to protect Corinth. So yes, Johnston can't do anything much for the rest of Tennessee.

Meanwhile, Grant will try this, that, & something else to defeat Johnston. It wouldn't surprise me if Grant loads up his army, sails past Johnston, lands his army to the west of Corinth, & marches on the city. Johnston is caught off step & must race back to Corinth to defend it. Grant, however, gets there first (or at least to a strong defensive position near the city) & waits for Johnston's arrival. The Rebs attack but are defeated & withdraws west to protect Memphis & the Mississippi River.

At this point, Grant can basically do whatever he wants with impunity (although Johnston will keep him honest). He can chase after the Rebs, turn south towards the Mexican Gulf, or east into Alabama thus threatening Georgia.

[Jason Sleeman]

Just had a thought!

At this point in our discourse we have arrived at May 1862 so how about this?

We take DMA's idea about Grant retaining command

Jefferson Davis is furious about Joe Johnston's insubordination and his failure to hold Williamsburg and removes him and orders A.S Johnston east to organise Rebel Forces on the Peninsula and find a way to defeat MCClellan

Robert E Lee is named to command the Army of Tennessee (Beauregard will be temporary commander until Lee arrives)

Joe Johnston will be sent to overall command of Ewell and Jackson in the Valley

what ramifications does Davis's shake-up in command bring to the war?

[DMA]

Just had a thought!

At this point in our discourse we have arrived at May 1862 so how about this?

We take DMA's idea about Grant retaining command

Jefferson Davis is furious about Joe Johnston's insubordination and his failure to hold Williamsburg and removes him and orders A.S Johnston east to organise Rebel Forces on the Peninsula and find a way to defeat MCClellan

Robert E Lee is named to command the Army of Tennessee (Beauregard will be temporary commander until Lee arrives)

Joe Johnston will be sent to overall command of Ewell and Jackson in the Valley

what ramifications does Davis's shake-up in command bring to the war?


Not a bad idea here, except one major problem: Lee won't leave Virgina whilst it's under threat from the Union. So remove Joe Johnston, but I think you don't have any other choice but Lee.

Before I say anything else about this reorganisation, though, has Grant defeat A. S. Johnston at Corinth/Third Shiloh?

[Jason Sleeman]

Yes We'll have Grant Win 3rd Shiloh

But 3rd Shiloh will be a less major affair because A.S Johnston will withdraw as Shiloh will become untenable since Johnston is once again significantly outnumbered

Grant 60,000

Johnston 38,000

Johnston will fight long enough to bloody Grant's nose a bit and satisfy "Southern Honor and will then withdrawl behind a rearguard of Forrest's Troopers back to Corinth.

Ok So Lee will command the Peninsula

Joe Johnston The Valley

and then we'll have A.S Johnston try to hold off Grant

also Beauregard will be in charge of a small force at Memphis to be possibly formed into a Corps sized army in time.

hows that for starters?

[DMA]

Yes We'll have Grant Win 3rd Shiloh

But 3rd Shiloh will be a less major affair because A.S Johnston will withdraw as Shiloh will become untenable since Johnston is once again significantly outnumbered

Grant 60,000

Johnston 38,000

Johnston will fight long enough to bloody Grant's nose a bit and satisfy "Southern Honor and will then withdrawl behind a rearguard of Forrest's Troopers back to Corinth.

Ok So Lee will command the Peninsula

Joe Johnston The Valley

and then we'll have A.S Johnston try to hold off Grant

also Beauregard will be in charge of a small force at Memphis to be possibly formed into a Corps sized army in time.

hows that for starters?



yes, all that sounds much better.

Here's a thought for you to contemplate - Jackson goes out west to replace A.S. Johnston. So it's Grant v Jackson.

A. S. Johnston comes to Virigina to become one of Lee's corps commanders. Thus the ANV has Lee as commander with Longstreet & A.S. Johnstone as corps commmanders.

[Kurt_Steiner]

yes, all that sounds much better.

Here's a thought for you to contemplate - Jackson goes out west to replace A.S. Johnston. So it's Grant v Jackson.

A. S. Johnston comes to Virigina to become one of Lee's corps commanders. Thus the ANV has Lee as commander with Longstreet & A.S. Johnstone as corps commmanders.


Johnston in the valley instead of Stonewall? Dunno why, but I don't like the idea...

Would AS Johnston be glad to be demoted to be just a Corps Commander? I dunno...

By the way, wonderful job here, gentlemen. DMA, as usual, simply superb.

[Jason Sleeman]

A.S Johnston outranked Lee so I don't think he would serve in a lesser capacity unless he makes a colossal error.

At this time Jackson was quite sucessful in the valley I can't see him being transfered at this juncture

Another (perhaps lesser) factor to ponder is the fate of Bragg,

With Lee commanding on the peninsula Davis will need a new advisor, so lets have Bragg go to richmond in June 1862 and have Cheatham assume his field command.

thoughts?

[DMA]

Johnston in the valley instead of Stonewall? Dunno why, but I don't like the idea...

Would AS Johnston be glad to be demoted to be just a Corps Commander? I dunno...

By the way, wonderful job here, gentlemen. DMA, as usual, simply superb.


Thanks! I try ;)


My idea, with the two command changes, is that Jackson is probably the only Reb general, who can take a medium sized force, & take on a larger one. Obviously I'm thinking of his Valley Campaign. So it would be interesting to see how Grant could cope with such an agressive, but brillant opposite number - especially out around Cornith etc.

A. S. Johnston may be a problem taking orders from Lee. But then again Lee had a way working around such people. More importantly, if A.S. Johnston was at Gettysburg, a three things would happen:

First - not only would the town be taken, on the first day, but the hills behind it would have been taken as well. As a result, the Rebs win at Gettysburg.

Secondly - if Cemetery Hill & Culp's Hill weren't taken by the Rebs, the rest of the Battle of Gettysburg would not have been fought. Now Longstreet may have backed down to Lee's demand that the South fight at Gettysburg, but I'd doubt that A.S. Johnston would have put up with such nonsense.

And this leads to my final point - a second battle, instead of Gettysburg, would have been fought near Washington DC on ground chosen by Lee. So I'd expect the Army of the Potomac to be defeated.

Thus, such a simple command swap, Jackson for Johnston, could have been a war winner IMHO. This is, of course, provided Johnston (& Jackson for that matter) lived to see such days...

[DMA]

A.S Johnston outranked Lee so I don't think he would serve in a lesser capacity unless he makes a colossal error.


He has. He lost Third Shiloh & Corinth to Grant.


At this time Jackson was quite sucessful in the valley I can't see him being transfered at this juncture


Hence, if he's the South's most successful commander, it's thus logical to pitt him against the Union's most successful commander.


Another (perhaps lesser) factor to ponder is the fate of Bragg,


If you want to ensure Confederate defeat, put Bragg in charge of an army. The best position for Bragg is Quartermaster General.


With Lee commanding on the peninsula Davis will need a new advisor, so lets have Bragg go to richmond in June 1862 and have Cheatham assume his field command.

thoughts?


Yes, that's possible, but as I said, Bragg would probably make a very good Quartermaster General IMHO.

[Jason Sleeman]

I'm still not sure about pulling Jackson out of the valley but it is within the realm of possibility so what the hell, let me take a stab at this.

Lets just have Lee see the situation as DMA does and have him convince Davis that Jackson could be the only chance of producing a transformation of the western situation

Jackson- goes to Corinth to command the Army of Tennesee. He arrives in early June 1862 he brings with him at his own insistance the Stonewall Brigade.

Jackson reorganizes his command removing Leonidas Polk and replacing him with Patrick Cleburne

Jubal Early takes command of Jackson's division in the Valley

The Confederate II Corps /The Army of The Valley is a 16,000 man force commanded by Joe Johnston with Early and Ewell as his two division commanders

A.S Johnston arrives in the east to command I Corps of The Army of Virginia under Lee on the Peninsula

III Corps Army Of Virginia is placed under James Longstreet

Beauregard commands 15,000 confederates around Memphis with an eye on Retaking either Columbus or Paducah Ky

The Stage is now set for battles in both theatres that could decide the war

Gentlemen place your bets now

Again thanks for the great feedback and Ideas guys
DMA your thoroughness is appreciated

Jason
Poet/Philosopher/Hair Metal Enthusiast

[DMA]

Whoa! Now that's a very interesting command structure for the South.

As a matter of interest, who gets ANV II Corps?

I'd say the rest of 1862 is a year of Hell for the Union.

First off, Grant will have his hands full fighting Jackson. It wouldn't surprise me if Grant soon finds himself back at Savannah by Christmas.

The Union lose at Antietam, but Lee withdraws back to Virigina due to casualities. However, there's no emancipation declaration.

The Valley probably remains somewhat quiet, but is firmly in Confederate hands.

I haven't got a clue what happens in 1863 due to all the variables. Best guess is the ACW ends in stalemate, somewhere in early 1865 due to Lincoln being defeated, provided the South doesn't suffer a Gettysburg &/or Vicksburg type defeat(s) in 1863-4.

[Jason Sleeman]

II Corps in the Valley although nominally independant is under Lee's Command as part of the ANV

[DMA]

II Corps in the Valley although nominally independant is under Lee's Command as part of the ANV


Ah, fair enough.

So what's the strength of ANV with just I & III Corps?

[Jason Sleeman]

Also Grant in OTL wasn't too fond of George Thomas so lets have him transfered east to try to salvage things in the valley after Banks is smashed up at Winchester so lets have Thomas reorganize the Union Valley Forces Between Martinsburg&Charles Town WV to protect Harpers Ferry

sound fun :D ?

[DMA]

Also Grant in OTL wasn't too fond of George Thomas so lets have him transfered east to try to salvage things in the valley after Banks is smashed up at Winchester so lets have Thomas reorganize the Union Valley Forces Between Martinsburg&Charles Town WV to protect Harpers Ferry

sound fun :D ?


Oh! Now that's an interesting dynamic. Thomas in the Valley up against Joe eh? My money is on Thomas! The Union isn't completely at a loss afterall... ;)

[Jason Sleeman]

Lee's Army Of Northern Virginia is on the Peninsula facing McClellan He Has...

I Corps- Albert Sidney Johnston aprox 30,000

III Corps James Longstreet 25,000

ANV= 55.000

II Corps Joseph Johnston is in the Valley at Winchester with 16,000 troops
he is technically part of ANV

by june II Corps will be facing the union V corps which is at Charles Town WV
and is commanded by George Thomas w 18,500 troops

at Corinth Miss, The Army of Tennessee 40,000 strong with the addition of the Stonewall Brigade under command of Stonewall Jackson

He is faced by Grant's Army of the Cumberland 60,000 strong

In Memphis Beauregard has 15,000 troops and support from Forrest's Cavalry



how might these campaigns play out?

I'd like some feedback so i can continue this

Thanks

Jason Sleeman aka Glamrocker

[DMA]

Well McCellen gets kicked off the Peninsular again as per OTL. Northern Virginia is more or less freed of Union forces. Lee then heads north & we get Antietam. It's a hard fought battle, but the Rebs just win in a close contest. However, Lee can't really stay up north for long, so withdraws with the Army of the Potomac keeping a respectful distance.

The Valley campaign will be a drawn out affair. Joe will conduct a fighting withdrawal in the face of Thomas. But I don't expect any major battles. In many respects it'll be a stalemate.

Grant will have his hands full at Corinth. I doubt a major battle will take place between the two armies (yet). Instead Jackson will concentrate his attacks on the edges of Grant's army. This will be almost a daily affair. Grant will be forced to withdraw to the river to secure at least one flank, gain support from the USN, & ensure his supply lines are kept open. We may find ourselves back at Shiloh...

The Reb force at Memphis won't do much. A few raids up north, but that's about all. However, with Grant retreating back to Shiloh, Jackson may call for reinforcements thinking that a big battle is now called for. So Beauregard & Forrest's forces unite with Jackson's forces to attack Grant at Fourth Shiloh. The outcome is a flip of a coin. Either way, the Mississippi River remains safe in the hands of the South.

[Jason Sleeman]

We just can't do that DMA... no more room in the area to bury the casualties. :)

Good progression though in all seriousness DMA

I saw it unfolding a bit differently myself, here's how I saw it

Peninsula Campaign

McClellan is defeated as per OTL with a few differences

No Malvern Hill - I have to believe A.S Johnston would talk Lee out of such a costly uphill attack and that Lee would respect his council enough to take that advice. A less costly (for the South) takes place and McClellan evacuates the peninsula

Johnston remains on the defensive for the time being on the hills around Winchester, although some minor skirmishes take place near Berryville Va
midway between the two forces

Jackson decides to use deception to try and fool Grant. During the night of June 18th 1862 Jackson pulls his men into a railroad cut just north of Corinth

Grant gets word from his scouts that Jackson has flown the coop

Skeptical of these reports Grant orders a recon in force of brigade size to seize Corinth if unoccupied but to break contact if opposed

now Jackson who is unseen by the advancing brigade has a choice... fire on the brigade from his position in the railroad cut or hope that they bypass his position and wait for Grant's main body to arrive. what will he do? what would you do? (aka I need ideas)

Beauregard advances cautiously northward towards Paducah Where Buell has a 6000 man garrison Forrest raids union supply lines in southwest Kentucky

Also I think regardless a fight won't take place at antietam as the odds of Lee's Special order being found were very slim. So in this timeline i don't see it happening

So now Lee repossitions his army into Northern Virginia.

Will he recall II corps from the valley or try to beat Pope with the 50,000 men he'll have on hand?

thoughts?

Jason Sleeman

[Hyperion]

If Grant is forced to retreat back to the Shiloh/Savannah area again, assume that by now he and all other top officers in the area have taken the liberty of setting up some good fortifications, and the Union has control of the Tennessee River, so he can get naval support if necessary. On the other hand, what about other areas, like Louisiana and North Carolina?

Most of the Confederates troops main army forces should be occupied in the Tennessee-Mississippi area, and the Virginia area, but The Union has a manpower and industrial advantage, and by 1862 has made some nice inroads into Louisiana and North Carolina, including the Capture of New Orleans, which is the South's largest city. Perhaps the Union commander in New Orleans decides to bring in a force to advance along the Mississippi from a southern direction.

[DMA]

Well if it's not 4th Shiloh, then it's Crump's Landing. But somewhere around this area I see another battle taking place. I really don't see Grant getting caught in an ambush around Corinth - especially after 1st Shiloh. You yourself are even thinking in that regards with this brigade recon mission. Instead I see Jackson more or less repeating his tactics of the OTL Valley campaign. This will force Grant to withdraw as he won't be able to force Jackson into a major engagement (unless Grant makes a big blunder which he won't).

I completely agree with what happens in the Valley.

Likewise I can go along with what happens in Virginia, except the last part. Lee will invade north. Now whether the big battle takes place at Antieham or not, doesn't overly matter. A big battle somewhere in Maryland I'd imagine will take place. Lee narrowly wins, thanks to Johnston as much as anybody, but won't have the resources to press on his victory. Lee reluctantly withdraws. But such a defeat for the Union means there's no emancipation declaration. It may also mean the Union doesn't go onto the offensive in 1863.

Lastly, I don't think Beauregard will overly do much. he'll view his role as a support role for Jackson. Forrest, though, will conduct several raids, but none will be about retaking & holding territory. It'll be more of a extension of Jackson's harrasment stratergy of Grant's postion.

The important battle of 1862 will be out west. So if it's not 4th Shiloh, it's Crump's Landing. Beauregard meets up with Jackson & their combined numbers are 55 000 v 60 000 under Grant. Jackson will probably do something like this:

1) Beauregard's Corps, with some support (say 25 000 troops), will advance up the road from Shiloh, straight into Grant's lines. This is nothing but a feign. Beauregard's job is merely to keep Grant occupied.

2) Jackson, at the same time, will take 30 000 troops & conduct a forced march on Adamsville to the west of Crump's Landing. Here he'll then turn east & again force march smashing into Grant's flank.

3) Grant withdraws as best he can to Crump's landing, where he evacuates what he can of his army across the river to safety.

Basically, it's a re-run of Chancellorsville.

[DMA]

Here's a quick map I did of the Battle of Crump's Landing (4th Shiloh) I was going on about.

[Justin Green]

Has any one thought that Johnston could be put in command of the ANV with Lee as the subordinate? AS Johnston was revered by Davis, and only after his death did Lee step into that role.

[Justin Green]

To build on this, if Johnston the commander isnt too keen on invading the north, maybe he could send a division under Lee to threaten Washington while he and the rest of the ANV cross over the Applachians into Kentucky, while Jackson is keeping grant busy.

[DMA]

Has any one thought that Johnston could be put in command of the ANV with Lee as the subordinate? AS Johnston was revered by Davis, and only after his death did Lee step into that role.


But how does Davis justify giving overall command to A.S. Johnston after he is defeated by Grant & pushed back to Corinth?


To build on this, if Johnston the commander isnt too keen on invading the north, maybe he could send a division under Lee to threaten Washington while he and the rest of the ANV cross over the Applachians into Kentucky, while Jackson is keeping grant busy.


Any such attempt to attack Washington with merely a division is folly. There are more than enough Union defenders around Washington to drive Lee away regardless how skillful Lee is. It'll come down to sheer numbers: Lee, with say 10 000 troops, verse at least 50 000 Union defenders. You may even have a situation take place similar to Early's Valley-Washington Campaign of 1864. The Union simply storms into the Valley, sweeping all Rebs aside, & close the Valley off from the South for the rest of the War. If so, then it's a major set-back for the Rebs.

[Justin Green]

I didnt elaborate. I thiniking AS goes east after 1 or 2 stalemates at Shiloh, not in total defeat.

But even if he were defeated, werent there many worse confederate generals who would loose battles just to be shuffled into another theater?

A division isnt enough, yes. I guess he would have to have enough men to be a serious threat. What if its Lee and a small contingent of the ANV who invade Kentucky, while AS and the rest of the ANV stay in Virginia?

[DMA]

I didnt elaborate. I thiniking AS goes east after 1 or 2 stalemates at Shiloh, not in total defeat.


Well that's possible. So before 3rd Shiloh I gather. The problem here is, whoever remains behind for 3rd Shiloh - whether it be Bragg or Beauregard, is going to get their arse kicked real hard. as a result, Grant will be able to go on a rampage & probably end up taking Memphis. That makes it really hard then for the South not to be broken in two somewhere in 1863 akin to the OTL Vicksburg campaign.


But even if he were defeated, werent there many worse confederate generals who would loose battles just to be shuffled into another theater?


Well sure, but by this stage Lee must have established himself in Virigina. And if Lee, by now, has kicked McClellen off the Peninsular, why then replace him?


A division isnt enough, yes. I guess he would have to have enough men to be a serious threat. What if its Lee and a small contingent of the ANV who invade Kentucky, while AS and the rest of the ANV stay in Virginia?


The problem of invading Kentucky is politics as much as anything. So it'll ensure that the "neutral" states are well & truly now Union states. Having said all that, if the ANV invades Kentucky, & there's only a small force defending Rickmond, nothing will stop the Army of the Potomac from taking Richmond & much of Virginia. And don't forget Rosecrans & the Army of the Cumberland is covering northern Kentucky around this time with about 55 000 troops. So the ANV will be involved with a nasty fight for Kentucky anyway.

All I foreseen is a lot of set-backs for the South with little gain. Certainly Rickmond is more than likely lost, even if Kentucky is gained. I don't know about your thoughts, but I think Davis wouldn't be overly impressed with the results. And if Richmond goes in 1862, I think it's pretty much over, even if the Confederacy can hang on for a few more years. Furthermore, Lincoln will be re-elected & will thus pursue the war until Union victory akin to the OTL.

[Justin Green]

I think you have a much deeper grasp of Cival war history then I do. It seems to me that McClellan did a whole lot of nothing prior to Antietam, and if things go with out the thrust into Pennsylvania, he would probably keep command, and continue belieiving bullshit troop numbers.

[DMA]

I think you have a much deeper grasp of Cival war history then I do. It seems to me that McClellan did a whole lot of nothing prior to Antietam, and if things go with out the thrust into Pennsylvania, he would probably keep command, and continue belieiving bullshit troop numbers.


Actually McCellan was removed after the Peninsular bungle. He was only reinstated as GOC Potomac when Lee headed north.

But essentially you're right about McCellan. His problem was he really wasn't a combat commander. He was a great organiser & trainer, but not a combat commander. It would have been better if McCellan was made Chief of Staff or Quartermaster General or some other high posting that are crucial to the war effort, so his administrative skills could have been used to maximum efficiency.

Who becomes GOC Potomac early on, though, is the problem, as they're all pretty well hopeless. Probably Hooker should have been brought forward earlier, but possibly he wouldn't have done any better than the rest of a long list of sorry looking incompetents. The Army of the Potomac, though, really gets going when Meade comes to the fore, but I'd doubt they'll look towards him until they've just about tried everyone else. So I wouldn't expect Meade to become GOC Potomac until early 1863 at the earliest. But once he does take command, Lee no longer has it easy.

[Justin Green]

So its possible that Lee or Johnston could a diversionary advance somewhere in Virgina, while the rest of the ANV either invades Kentucky or reinforces The Army of the Tennesse to achieve troop parity or superiority?

[DMA]

So its possible that Lee or Johnston could a diversionary advance somewhere in Virgina, while the rest of the ANV either invades Kentucky or reinforces The Army of the Tennesse to achieve troop parity or superiority?


They could try, but it makes the Reb position in Virigina dangerous. Afterall the Army of the Potomac is about 100 000 or so strong. Now move most of the ANV, say 55 000 troops, to Kentucky, & that leaves at best only 20 000 troops to defend Northern Virginia.

So say the ANV does move to northern Kentucky & tackles the Army of the Cumberland. Numbers wise it'll be an even contest. But, far more importantly, Washington will know within hours (thanks to the telegraph) that Virigina hasn't got many troops left to defend Richmond.

Furthemore, the Army of the Cumberland isn't a crappy outfit. It'll be able to fight it out with the ANV. In fact Lee may even get a nasty surprise as to how hard the fighting is in Kentucky. Certainly at OTL Chickamauga, Longstreet's Corps soon learned the fighting was much tougher out west than in Virginia.

All this means that the ANV is committed to Kentucky & just won't be able to drop everything immediately & rush back to Virigina. And if Hooker is now GOC Potomac, he'll probably march on Richmond & there won't be much that the Rebs could do to stop the Army of the Potomac other than whistle Dixie defiantly. So that isn't very helpful for the South cause...

Instead, what Lee could try is send one corps to Kentucky, say Longstreet's 20 000 troops (not hard considering the OTL Chickamauga), where Longstreet pulls together troops from elsewhere, which can be spared (say another 20 000 troops), & then Longstreet launches his own invasion of Kentucky. Kentucky then becomes a seperate threatre in itself.

Such a situation thus ensures Lee has 55 000 troops. This is more than enough to stop any Union offensive in Virigina, whilst Longstreet's army is enough to make contact with Roscrans forces, & then go onto the defensive as well. And when Longstreet is on the defensive, he is pretty much undefeatable.

[Justin Green]

Sweet. Another front to the north of Grant will surely help whoever is commanding the Army of Tenn. If enough of the south was still in Confederate hands, there troop numbers from conscription should be larger, as well as access to raw resources and greater use of the rails.

[DMA]

Sweet. Another front to the north of Grant will surely help whoever is commanding the Army of Tenn. If enough of the south was still in Confederate hands, there troop numbers from conscription should be larger, as well as access to raw resources and greater use of the rails.


Well this will certainly be the case for 1862. Maybe even 1863. But two things:

1) My entire strategy here is defensive. But, the Rebs are getting stretched. And this leads to the big problem;

2) The Union has the numbers which can still overwhelm the South from mid-1863 onwards.

So it'll basically play along the OTL plans of Lee. Make the Union bleed to the point that continuation of the war will end up being too costly for the Union. But that all depends upon the price that the Union is prepared to pay. And if Grant still manages to become overall commander, the Union will simply employ the strategy of grinding down the South akin to OTL. If so, then it makes it awfully hard for the Confederacy to survive let alone win.

[Justin Green]

I think the best peace the Confederates could get this late in the war without allies, would be a modified bordered based on the lines of Control the Union has in the south.

[DMA]

I think the best peace the Confederates could get this late in the war without allies, would be a modified bordered based on the lines of Control the Union has in the south.


Yeah, I agree. If they can hold out that long. The South needs to hold out until the 1864 Persidential elections AND Lincoln loses...

[Justin Green]

I wonder if its plausible for McCleelan to be assasinated before he takes office and his veep, a copperhead or at least someone weak enough to give the South all 11 states could then take the presidency?

And!, if lincoln would willingly hand power to such an individual. I know im getting off topic, but if faced with utter humiliation, could the Union Generals agree with Lincoln to start a coup?

[DMA]

I wonder if its plausible for McCleelan to be assasinated before he takes office and his veep, a copperhead or at least someone weak enough to give the South all 11 states could then take the presidency?

And!, if lincoln would willingly hand power to such an individual. I know im getting off topic, but if faced with utter humiliation, could the Union Generals agree with Lincoln to start a coup?


Well we're making a lot of assumptions here! lol

First off, there's still 2 & 1/2 years until the election. In many respects it really depends what happens in this period. It also depends if Lee goes on his Gettysburg adventure. Don't forget the Rebs can't really afford Pickett's Charge, whilst the Union can conduct several such disasters & still be out in front.

Another aspect is the Union generals. Now if Meade becomes GOC Potomac, Lee is going to have his hands full. So from mid 1863 onwards, Meade will have around 200 000 troops to throw at Lee's 55 000 or so. So the South will be truly tested for another 18 months.

Furthermore, don't forget you've got Thomas in the Valley. Now it may take time, but he will grind away at Joe & eventually occupy all the Valley. This'll ensure that a lot of the South's food resources are cut off, making life really hard for the Rebs.

Now even if Grant is kicked out of Mississippi altogether, he'll continue to make a real pest of himself. So Jackson will be preoccupied with Grant to do much else. Similarly, i'd expect Roscrans & Longstreet to be kept busy in northern Kentucky. All in all, the Union isn't doing too bad.

So in early 1864 will be the South's biggest test. It'll have a major reduction of resources, due to the situation in the Valley, whilst Lee is outnumbered 4:1. Meade will try several things, possibly all at once. Lee can only react. Furthermore, Meade won't try anything stupid like Fredericksburg. I'd say he'll play a flanking game with Lee, forcing Lee back all the time. By mid 1864, Richmond may find itself under seige. And if, along the way somewhere, the Union wins a big victory, Lincoln will be re-elected without a problem. Otherwise, if Richmond is under siege, the US election will be close, but I'd expect Lincoln to just scrape back in.

There won't be any coup, considering it's the incompetent US generals who are the problem in the first place.

[Kurt_Steiner]

I wonder why the Confederacy wanted to waste resources in Kentucky. Better to keep the Yanks at bay a Tennesse and send Mosby or Forrest into Kentucky to harrass the enemy rearguard. But conquering Kentucky? What for?

About Meade. If he arrives to command the AoP, Lee is going to have a bad time. I fully agree. So, my dark and twisted soul asks: how many chances has the Confederacy to have Meade meet Kearny's or McPherson fate when he was still Corps Commander and not Army Commander? I'm afraid that I know what DMA is gonna say: zero. Anyway...

By the way, DMA, why would the Union need Grant, Sherman and Meade, if you're around????? ;) :D

As usual, my impressed respect to you, my dear and wise friend. :)

[DMA]

I wonder why the Confederacy wanted to waste resources in Kentucky. Better to keep the Yanks at bay a Tennesse and send Mosby or Forrest into Kentucky to harrass the enemy rearguard. But conquering Kentucky? What for?


I think the Confederacy lead themselves to believe that Kentucky was a fellow state under Union occupation. So the Rebs operations there were liberation efforts. They couldn't get through their skulls, though, that Kentucky wanted to remain neutral, but when pushed, would remain in the Union.


About Meade. If he arrives to command the AoP, Lee is going to have a bad time. I fully agree. So, my dark and twisted soul asks: how many chances has the Confederacy to have Meade meet Kearny's or McPherson fate when he was still Corps Commander and not Army Commander? I'm afraid that I know what DMA is gonna say: zero. Anyway...


Well he could have died. You could have all the good Union generals die too, but the likelihood is pretty slim. Afterall we're not allowing any of the Reb generals die off in this thread. Hell, we're even keeping Bragg alive! :eek:


By the way, DMA, why would the Union need Grant, Sherman and Meade, if you're around????? ;) :D


lol! Yeah, I'd be bad news for the South if the ASBs sent me back to 1860... ;)


As usual, my impressed respect to you, my dear and wise friend. :)


Thanks Kurt. I knew all that ACW study & research meant something :)

[Jason Sleeman]

Glad to see this thread is thriving :)

Everyone has had some very good ideas.

Here's what I came up with

August 1862

Pope is in command of the Union Forces in Northern Virginia 50,000 strong

McClellan has been ordered to unite his forces with Pope's but is lathargic in doing so

Lee has pulled his forces together north of the Rapidan by the end of the month he has 55,000 troops comprising I and III corps under A.S Johnston and James Longstreet respectively.

Joe Johnston in command of II Corps is sparing and skirmishing in the vicinity of Berryville Va and Charles Town WV with the Union V Corps under George Thomas

Stonewall Jackson, in command of the Army of Tennessee to which has been added the newly formed confederate VIII Corps under Beauregard with the Memphis garrison now under command of Earl Van Dorn

After Jackson's victory at 4th Shiloh (full credit to DMA for his great battle map) Grant is pinned down at Crumps landing. Due to the Union fleet Jackson cannot press forward and Grant is now firmly entrenched and is supplied by boat

BTW other lesser theaters are progressing as in OTL so far

Lee devises a similar strategy for 2nd Manassas as in OTL with two divisions of John Bell Hood in the position in the railroad cut of OTL the results are also similar and Pope is routed

Army of NVA 55,000 engaged

John Pope USA 52,500 engaged

CSA casualties 4152

USA casualties 7432

Lincoln fearful for the defense of the capital places McClellan in command of all union forces around Washington

Lee prepares to (liberate) Maryland and with Stuart screening the passes begins to move north on Sept 4 1862

McClellan orders George Thomas out of the Valley and to rejoin the Army of the Potomac

Thomas protests strongly to McClellan that he can do more good where he is now and should remain to prevent Johnston from linking up with Lee

McClellan has not found Lee's special order 191 and therefore believes his own paranoia

McClellan wires Thomas that Lee's main force numbers 150,000 men and that the V corps must join with the Army of the Potomac so that the army can meet Lee's (overwhelming forces) Thomas protests angrilly and forwards copies of his protest to Stanton and Lincoln stating that he will follow this order but only under extreme protest.

so the two armies meet at Hancock Maryland on september 19th 1862

Lee is entrenched on the ridges west of town

ANV (including II Corps)

73,000

Army of Potomac 105,000 (including V Corps)

who wins this one

p.s although tempting try not to have McClellan die during the battle

I've developed the timeline further but I'd like to see what everyone thinks

Thanks again to all

Jason Sleeman

[DMA]

Good work Jason. I can go along with all that you've said here, especially the main part about McClellan.

Just one thing though - any particular reason you have Grant dig in at Crump's Landing instead of an evacuation over the river?

[Jason Sleeman]

I don't know why really but I thought maybe Grant would prefer to have a toehold on the west bank of the river for the sake of morale and thought that with the support of the gunboats he could remain where he wished and due to his stubborn nature would do so unless Jackson completely routed him.

[DMA]

I don't know why really but I thought maybe Grant would prefer to have a toehold on the west bank of the river for the sake of morale and thought that with the support of the gunboats he could remain where he wished and due to his stubborn nature would do so unless Jackson completely routed him.


Yeah, that'd be true. It would be more in line with Grant's character.

[Jason Sleeman]

Thanks DMA, your map was instrumental in my being able to visualise that part of the timeline.

Jason Sleeman

P.S I will update the timeline through oct 1862 tommorow

[DMA]

Thanks DMA, your map was instrumental in my being able to visualise that part of the timeline.

Jason Sleeman

P.S I will update the timeline through oct 1862 tommorow


Thanks. I'm glad you found it helpful. I find maps often are more helpful than even a good detailed description.

Let me know if you need any more. I actually have a series, which I posted on another thread, which deals with how Meade could counterattack Lee in 1864, & bring Richmond under seige.

[DMA]

Speaking of maps, does anyone know where I can get a half decent map of the AH Hancock Maryland battlefield area? I'd like one before I make any assessment of the battle.

[Jason Sleeman]

I could get a physical map of Hancock Md I live 45 minutes away :) but i lack the P.C knowledge otherwise i would gladly post one myself sorry DMA

[DMA]

I could get a physical map of Hancock Md I live 45 minutes away :) but i lack the P.C knowledge otherwise i would gladly post one myself sorry DMA


Thanks Jason. I've actually got a couple off the Yahoo Maps website. Alas they're all modern. None historical.

So I gather for the Battle of Hancock the ANV moves in from the west & Potomac comes in from the east? And they're both north of the river or what?

[DMA]

Ok. Having studied the maps of the Valley & the Hancock region, I'll say this:

First off Thomas has to withdraw anyway. He is right in the line of march of the ANV. He's got about say 20 000 troops verse 75 000 Rebs coming his way (including Joe's II Corps 15 000 troops). So whether Thomas likes it or not, he'll have to withdraw to Harper's Ferry in order to block that entry into Maryland.

McCellan, for all the bad things we say about him, isn't at the same time completely stupid. He'll move slowly north-west using the Potomac River to shield his southern flank. After the ANV has moved on past Harper's ferry, Thomas V Corps can be used as a screen for the AOP & keep an eye on the ANV northern flank, should Lee turn suddenly on say Sharpsburg or elsewhere.

So you have the ANV arriving to the west of Hancock & digging in. McCellan will come in slowly & establish a stong line himself. This'll match Lee's line northwards. Funnily enough, however, McCellan will notice a weakness to Lee's southern flank which rests on the Potomac River. But this flank is further protected by the canal that's also there.

There is, interestingly enough, to the west of town a creek that runs below the hills below where Lee has located himself. Thus McCellan decides to move forward cautiously & establish a defensive line along the creek. Furthermore, he now extends his line further north, along the creek, with the cavalry division protecting his open flank whilst searching for Lee's open flank. Naturally this action bumps into Stuart's cavalry. So although McCellan doesn't actually discover the end of Lee's line, he has a rough idea where it is located.

McCellan now decides to wait until the AOP is all together, which basically means he's waiting for V Corps & a few stragglers. McCellan, however, is prepared to wait as he isn't keen on attacking Lee.

So Jason, does this sound about right?

PS: I'd still love an historical topographical map of the area...

[DMA]

I just got my topographical maps of Hancock. Lovely!

Do you really want Lee to fight here? Because he'll get creamed if he does...

[Jason Sleeman]

DMA, as far as the movement of the armies are concerned, that is exactly how I envisioned.

But since you have maps of Hancock area and I don't I will defer to your judgement on that matter and not have Lee fight at Hancock,

So how about an early Gettysburg except with Lee between McClellan and Washington which might compel Mac to attack

(I want to make it plausible for Lee to win this one, but not for reasons one might assume. There is a twist to come but I must have Lee win this fight to make it work)

who thinks they can pull this off?

Jason Sleeman

[DMA]

Well here's the topographical map I found of Hancock. I hope you can understand it. (It's also a big file)

[DMA]

Now I also wrote up a Battle of Hancock based upon the topography, the movements prior to the battle, & what McClellan did at Antietam. I've also done a map based on the topography one, showing McClellan's movements. the result heavily favours the Rebs, but in truth the Union should win this battle. Anyway, by all means let me know what you think.


Battle of Hancock

Day One

Lee arrives first. He establishes his initial position on Blue Hill. Here Longstreet makes his line south to the Potomac River & north to Kirk Woods where he anchors his line on Little Tonoloway Creek. Immediately north of this location (across the creek), A.S. Johnston starts his line. This continues north towards Wardfordsburg, where J. Johnston’s II Corps takes over the line where it ends at Big Tonoloway Creek. Across Big Tonoloway Creek, Stuart’s cavalry covers the flank.

McClellan arrives not long after Longstreet & establishes his line. As a result, McClellan begins his line where Little Tonoloway Creek enters the Potomac River, then follows Longstreet’s line to the east of Kirk Woods. The Union line then heads north, parallel to Lee’s line & ends west of Wardfordsburg to Big Tonoloway Creek. Pleasonton’s Cavalry probes further north & is soon in contact with Stuart. Like Lee, McClellan bases most of his line on a hill line although Lee's position enjoys a higher ridgeline.


Day Two

McClellan begins a three front attack.

The first attack begins around 06:30 hours by US XII Corps towards Wardfordsburg. Accompanying US XII Corps, further north across Big Tonoloway Creek, Pleasonton’s Cavalry engages Stuart’s cavalry. The attack has the appearance that McClellan maybe trying to turn Lee’s northern flank.

The second attack begins at the southern end of Lee’s line along the railway line & canal next to the Potomac River This takes place around 08:30 hours. Here US I Corps, with artillery support, tries to leaver away CSA I Corps grip on the Potomac River flank. Again it appears that McClellan maybe trying to turn the Confederate southern flank.

The third & main attack takes place at where Little Tonoloway Creek cuts Lee’s line between CSA I & III Corps. Massed Union artillery commences its bombardment at 10:00 hours. After 15 minutes of continuous bombardment, USA II Corps moves forward in support to establish their line to the south of the main line of attack. Similarly, just to their north, US VI Corps moves forward to establish a support line facing north.

In between the two supporting US Corps, US III Corps commences its main attack along the northern shoreline of Little Tonoloway Creek heading directly west. Behind US III Corps comes US V Corps. US III Corps objective is to force a hole in CSA III Corp’s line so that US V Corps can exploit this hole & cut Lee’s battleline in two. As a result of this action of US V Corps, both CSA II & III Corps will be enveloped thus destroying a large part of the ANV.

A.S. Johnston (CSA III Corps), however, even though he wanted to move his line forward towards the Union line that morning, put his plans on hold when the first Union cannons are heard towards the north at 06:30 hours. He, furthermore, readies his Corps for a counterattack towards the south when US I Corps begins its attack at 08:30 hours. Such a precaution soon pays dividends when US II & VI Corps begin their attack 90 minutes later.

At 10:15 hours the bulk of CSA III Corps head south once the main US bombardment finishes. A.S. Johnston’s counterattack, though, heads right into US VI Corps support line & the Confederates are soon stopped. Meanwhile, US III Corps advances onto a lone Confederate brigade blocking the way on its advance. Lee, now realising the objective of McClellan’s main attack, orders Longstreet’s northern units forward to send enfilade fire into US III Corps’ flank. This slows US III Corps progression, giving much relief to the defending Confederate brigade, but Longstreet's CSA I Corps gains return Union fire as some of US III Corps brigades deploy into line to fire back across Little Tonoloway Creek & at CSA I Corps. Furthermore, supporting Union artillery begins to pound Longstreet’s units who are involved with the fight with US III Corps.

Nevertheless, this action by Longstreet’s Corps slows US III Crops down, that being the desired result, which permits Johnston’s CSA III Corps to react. Thus a division of CSA III Corps counterattacks the head of US III Corps advance hence stopping the Union troops cold in their tracks. Not long afterwards, however, Thomas’ US V Corps comes storming through US III Corps lines & onto the Confederate troops of CSA III Corps.

A worried Lee looks on as US V Corps now pushes the Confederate defenders back & a hole appears in the line. Alas, with US III Corps more or less exhausted, & the supporting US II & VI Corps far too busy with their own battles, US V Corps is on their own. Thomas immediately tries to re-organise V Corps attack, having fallen apart after their breakthrough, & tries to advance once again as per orders.

Alas for Thomas, enough Confederate reinforcements, a mix-mash of brigades from all three CSA Corps, have arrived to block any further Union advance. After a further two hours of constant desperate fighting on both sides, Thomas orders a fighting withdrawal. Soon, in an organised fashion, US III Corps falls back with US V Corps. US II & VI Corps, however, stay in their support positions where they had already begun to entrench an hour or so before.

Lee’s line has been battered, even severely bruised, but it eventually held.


Day Three

A third day would go by that started with only a few minor engagements. The most notable of these started at around 08:00 hours when US XII Corps once again attacked Wardfordsburg, but the attack was rebuffed as it was the pervious day. Similarly Pleasonton’s US Cavalry engaged Stuart’s Confederate Cavalry, but again nothing is decisive, with the cavalry clash a draw.

In an effort to placate A.S. Johnston’s calls for an attack, Lee finally relents at around 11:00 hours & gives his approval for CSA III Corps, regardless of the fact that it faced much of the fighting the day before, to launch an attack at 15:00 on the entrenched US VI Corps positions. Although by 16:00 hours, the ferocious Confederate attack had forced both US VI Corps, & the supporting US II Corps, back to their start line of the previous day, CSA III Corps could not purse any further. Far more importantly, however, for the Confederates, A.S. Johnston’s attack convinced Lee that the ANV could no longer remain in Maryland, having used almost all of its artillery supplies & much of its remaining ammunition for the infantry.

Orders for withdrawal were thus authorised & plans made accordingly.


Day Four

On the fourth day, Lee begins his withdrawal. McClellan offers no major threat & the ANV slips away without challenge. The battle is over. Essentially it was a draw, even though it was Lee who had to withdraw & surrender the contest of the battlefield to the AoP. The Union obviously claims it as a victory. McClellan is later fired by Lincoln for not pursuing Lee.

Casualties: CSA 12 000; USA 13 000.

[Hyperion]

This is a victory for the Union in a way. Even though McClellan lost more men, the Rebs will have a harder time replacing their losses.

Grant will now need help. If he's still around, have Buell come to the rescue with 25,000 men and releave Grant.

[DMA]

So how about an early Gettysburg except with Lee between McClellan and Washington which might compel Mac to attack

(I want to make it plausible for Lee to win this one, but not for reasons one might assume. There is a twist to come but I must have Lee win this fight to make it work)

who thinks they can pull this off?


Well name the location & I'll see what maps I can get.

But I can't really see the Confederates winning the ACW if they win at Antietam/Gettysburg/etc in 1862. As it was,
the Union was to still suffer to large defeats at Fredericksburg & Chancellorsville, whilst still going on to win the war.

If the Confederacy is to have a chance, it's really got to win a couple of big battles in 1864 prior to the US Presidential elections. Needless to say, even with the Union disaster at Cold Harbour & Early harrasing Washington DC itself, Lincoln still won the election.

Maybe if Gettysburg, or something like it, was fought in July 1864 & the Confederates won, then that might make a difference. I don't hold out much luck though.

The only other thing I can think of is that, after First Mannassas, the Rebs march on Washington DC, take it &, furthermore, hold it until the end of the war - which ends with their independence...

[Kurt_Steiner]

congrsats for the wonderful narration of the battle, DMA. It's some kind of Antietam revisited, but I agree with the final outcome. Anyway. So, Lee return to old Virginy, Little Mac gots kicked (I hope not for the last time... ;) ). And now, I suppose that the war returns to the west...

Who replaces Little Mac? Burnside? Oh yes, please...

[DMA]

congrsats for the wonderful narration of the battle, DMA. It's some kind of Antietam revisited, but I agree with the final outcome. Anyway. So, Lee return to old Virginy, Little Mac gots kicked (I hope not for the last time... ;) ). And now, I suppose that the war returns to the west...

Who replaces Little Mac? Burnside? Oh yes, please...


Thanks :)

Yeah I admit it's kind of like Antietam, in many ways, but the topography of the land at Hancock more or less means McClellan repeats himself.

And considering the large battle at Hancock, yeah I'd agree that's probably it in the eastern theatre for a while. In fact Kentucky may be the next theatre to see a major action as I think stalemate will be the case out Shiloh way, even if Grant gains 25 000 reinforcements as Hyperion suggests. I don't think Grant would be replaced though. Buell will have a support role - maybe to keep the Rebs from moving north up the Mississippi which he should be able to achieve.

Of course that's if the Battle of Hancock takes place. Jason might have another place in mind. IMHO, though, Lee should stay on the defensive in Virginia throughout 1862. Maybe in 1863 he cold try some adventure. But his whole problem is supply. He can only stay for a limited time out of Virginia, where the Union can basically go wherever they want for an indefinite period of time.

[Hyperion]

After the Union victory at Hancock and what appears to be a stalemate at Crump's Landing for Grant, if Buell comes with say 20-25 thousand men of his own to the area, maybe he should try to get the Rebs attention elsewhere.

How many reb forces are in the Memphis area, and could Buell with 25,000 men and naval support beat them and take Memphis?

Also if the two main theaters of combat appear to settle down, perhaps the Union should consider toucher actions aimed at blockading the Confederacy. Perhaps more actions capturing towns and harbors on the Gulf of Mexico.

[DMA]

After the Union victory at Hancock and what appears to be a stalemate at Crump's Landing for Grant, if Buell comes with say 20-25 thousand men of his own to the area, maybe he should try to get the Rebs attention elsewhere.

How many reb forces are in the Memphis area, and could Buell with 25,000 men and naval support beat them and take Memphis?

Also if the two main theaters of combat appear to settle down, perhaps the Union should consider toucher actions aimed at blockading the Confederacy. Perhaps more actions capturing towns and harbors on the Gulf of Mexico.


Actually this is a rather good idea for the Union. Considering Beauregard's confederate force went to join up with Jackson's army to fight at 4th Shiloh, there probably isn't many Reb defenders at Memphis. As a result, Buell could, with USN support, sail down the Mississippi with little effort. A brief battle with Reb militia would probably take place at Memphis, but I wouldn't expect it to take very long for Buell to be victorious.

The next step for Buell, though, is what does he do next? Does he march east towards Corinth & threaten Jackson's rear, or does Buell continue south, down the Mississippi, & on to Vicksburg?

[Hyperion]

Best thing that Buell and Grant both should do after Buell takes Memphis, IMO, would be for Buell to bring in more forces and supplies to strengthen his position, and Grant to bring in more men and supplies in his area. Grant may not be able to bring in too many more troops where he's at, but if the men and equipment are available, Buell should try to get his forces doubled to around 50-55 thousand. If he isn't busy elsewhere, it might be a good idea to give Sherman an independent force of 20 thousand or so as well.

Once Buell has built up his forces in Memphis, and Sherman is ready, have Grant prepare to launch an attack aimed at breaking out, while at the same time Buell, or one of his top commander and about half of his built up force, 25 thousand or so, advance towards Grants position from in a northeasternly direction, while Sherman moves out from the Fort Donelson area with his force, goes west a ways, and then comes down from the northwest. Buell or the commander he sends into the field should try to get under the Confederates, down the river about 20 miles and then move on them from the south.

[Kurt_Steiner]

i'm gonna play the devil's advocate...

Are you sure that there are no Confederate troops in reserve to stop Bluell?

[Jason Sleeman]

DMA- first rate narration of The Battle Of Hancock

I've had to catch up on the last two pages of the thread but the discussion is very engaging with great points being made by all Hyperion, Kurt Steiner great input.

I based this timeline on DMA's page 4 post stating that Lee would get creamed fighting at Hancock Md so I attempted to devise an early Gettysburg

Lee will hold the ground south-east of town which was held by the Union in OTL's battle of Gettysburg

(My lack of logistical knowledge will prevent me from going into great detail on the battle, I will leave that to those who know better) I will simply timeline the basics

Being that Lee is between McClellan's Army and Washington

McClellan will be compelled to attack

Therefore we have Burnside's Charge against Cemetery Ridge as the culmination of a very bloody battle

ANV 73,000 Troops

Army of Potomac 105,000 Troops

Losses ANV 15,000

Army of Potomac 23,500

McClellan though in truth not really defeated is horrified by the carnage,

Especially Burnside's Charge which despite 70% casualties takes and holds part of the ridge for nearly 20 minutes. If reinforced McClellan might have won the day (But alas "his commanders let him down"

His one success is that he is able to get his army once again between Lee and Washington stopping his men behind the Monocacy River just South of Frederick Maryland

**** Now The Twists******

McClellan is removed by Lincoln who laments that a golden opportunity to end this terrible conflict has been wasted. Lincoln falls shy of calling McClellan a coward but many within congress do just that as do many within the Army albiet much more discreetly.

McClellan is replaced at the top by his number 1 detractor General George Thomas

Meanwhile as the news of McClellan's collapse has reached Washington, The British Embassy is a buzz with activity

On October 4, 1862 Lord Lyons is recieved by Lincoln and Seward

Lord Lyons say that the conditions warrant the extending of diplomatic recognition of the Confederacy if the Union does not agree to British (and possibly French mediation) Seward says that there can be no discussion unless on the basis of a confederate return to the Union.

Lyons states that, such a conclusion might be "unfortunate for the Union" however Lyons would be happy to act as a mediator between Union and Confederate officials with a view to reaching "a mutually amicable solution.

Lyons also arranges to speak with Lincoln privately.

Lyons- "Mr.President, I have a proposal which I wish to discuss with you, It has, I might add the full blessing of Her Majesty's Government. It should be known that while many in the Government support the Southern cause the British people, including a sizeable portion of Commons do not. While I am empowered to recognise the Confederacy at this time, it is based on a consideration.

Lincoln- "Go ahead Sir"

Lyons- "Her Majesty's government will recognise the Confederate States on condition that she pass immediate legislation abolishing chatell slavery by January 1, 1880

Lincoln- "Do you think they will go for it?"

Lyons- "I would hope they would have the good sense to accept this proposal" And Davis may well do so, but the Fire-eaters as you call them will not have it"

Lincoln- "Nonetheless sir I am honor bound to preserve this Union." My military situation, at least here in the East compels me to think that perhaps
it couldn't hurt to talk the matter over with our wayward Southern brethern, although I will strongly put forth my conviction that the nation must reunite, very well Mr.Ambassador let us arrange this conference.

Lyons- As you wish Mr President, I believe a wise decision has been made


------

October 13th 1862 A Wire is transmitted to Richmond on the proposed conference, To take place aboard a British Frigate in the Chesapeake
and requesting a cease fire effective as soon as can be transmitted.
the proposal is accepted by the Davis Government


Thoughts ?

I promise more twists to come, again all is not as it may appear

Jason Sleeman

[Hyperion]

Would the south go for it. Although the plantation owners were not the majority, they probably had the most money and political influence. Take away the slaves, or make them have to pay the slaves even small salaries, and it could make them angry. Even if the Confederate government in Richmond goes for it, the only way it will probably be enforced will be by using some military forces. Even if the British proposal is accepted, what will happen if the Confederacy fails to meet the agreement?

Assuming the Battle of Hancock has taken place instead or going with the Gettysburg option, a victory in the west might give Lincoln some leverage to work with.

We has 55,000 Army of Tennessee Rebs holding Grant down in Crump's landing with say, 50,000, but 10,000 more have been taken across the river. We have Sherman coming from the northwest with 20,000 men, and Buell with 25-30 thousand men in Memphis and 25,000 approaching Crump's Landing and the rear area of the Confederate lines. The Rebs have won more, but the Union has a 2:1 supperiority, and can hit the Rebs from 3 positons, possibly 4 if Grant moves the 10,000 men on the other side of the river upstream a few miles and they come down from the north.

[DMA]

Best thing that Buell and Grant both should do after Buell takes Memphis, IMO, would be for Buell to bring in more forces and supplies to strengthen his position, and Grant to bring in more men and supplies in his area. Grant may not be able to bring in too many more troops where he's at, but if the men and equipment are available, Buell should try to get his forces doubled to around 50-55 thousand. If he isn't busy elsewhere, it might be a good idea to give Sherman an independent force of 20 thousand or so as well.

Once Buell has built up his forces in Memphis, and Sherman is ready, have Grant prepare to launch an attack aimed at breaking out, while at the same time Buell, or one of his top commander and about half of his built up force, 25 thousand or so, advance towards Grants position from in a northeasternly direction, while Sherman moves out from the Fort Donelson area with his force, goes west a ways, and then comes down from the northwest. Buell or the commander he sends into the field should try to get under the Confederates, down the river about 20 miles and then move on them from the south.


All of these are good ideas, but just a couple of observations of probable outcomes:


1) Grant is still pinned down at Crmup's Landing against Jackson. The chances are I don't think he's going to be able to do anything but sit there.

2) There's no reason to start Sherman's advance at Fort Donelson as this region has already been taken by the Union a year ago. Better to have his army float down the Tennessee River & have Sherman's force land to the south of Jackson's force at Crump (say Pittsburg Landing). Jackson will have to withdraw otherwise he'll be caught betweenGrant & Sherman & enveloped as a result. So there's no 5th Shiloh as a result of Sherman's flanking manoeuvre.

3) Such an action, although freeing Grant, will have dire consequences for Buell's force of 25 000 heading for Corinth. I'd expect Jackson to go onto the attack with a superior sized force (55 000). Buell fights, but is defeated & falls back on Memphis. Grant & Sherman, though, combine forces & take Corinth. Jackson, however, isn't finished & will fight on...

[DMA]

i'm gonna play the devil's advocate...

Are you sure that there are no Confederate troops in reserve to stop Bluell?


There is another Confederate force, but it's at Vickburg. Pemberton has about 40 000 troops there, but they will only move in the defence of Vicksburg.

[DMA]

October 13th 1862 A Wire is transmitted to Richmond on the proposed conference, To take place aboard a British Frigate in the Chesapeake
and requesting a cease fire effective as soon as can be transmitted.
the proposal is accepted by the Davis Government


Thoughts ?

I promise more twists to come, again all is not as it may appear

Jason Sleeman


As for this AH Battle of Gettysburg - yes I can't see way something like that would happen. I'd dare say, though, that Burnside's attack on Cemetery Hill takes place after McClellan spreads his line towards the south-west on the first day. There would probably an action, on the second day as a result of this move, to take Little & Big Round Top(s). Taking those would give a commanding view & control of the battlefield. So I'd expect McClellan to try his first major attack there akin to Lee's OTL tactics at Gettysburg.

Burnsides attack on Cemetery Hill comes on the third day. But I agree it'll be costly & akin to Pickett's Charge (but don't forget the Union can afford several such disasters - the South can't afford even one). As a result, yes the battle is a victory for Lee, but Lee won't be able to hang around for long. He has located himself very well tactically, but strategically he's in a very bad situation. All that is required is for one or two Union Corps to come up behind him from Washington & he'll be enveloped. As a result, the ANV is destroyed. And with it the Confederacy.

So after say the three days of battle, Lee will have to withdraw back to Virigina in the next day or two. That doesn't do well to what happens in the aftermath. So I don't expect any offer from the British to host a peace conference, as one certainly didn't arrive after Fredericksburg &/or Chancellorsville. And both battles were proof that the ANV could defend & hold its territory. But at this AH Gettysburg, the ANV had to withdraw (despite the fact it was an invasion).

In many respects, although it's another victory for the ANV, the AoP is still in combat & is still combat effective. As such, this victory is no different to say Fredericksburg, except the AoP doesn't withdraw this time around. And considering the battle takes place in 1862, it'll have little if any effect upon the US Presidential elections in 1864. So Lincoln shouldn't be overly worried about what the British want or his re-election prospects.

Furthermore, as Hyperion said about the British offer - Would the south go for it? I'd extremely doubt that the Rebs would give up slavery. Afterall, cutting away all the state's rights crap, that's really what the South is fighting for. Give up slavery &, in reality, the South isn't fighting for anything.

IMHO it'll be better for Lee to stay on the defensive in 1862. Win victories like Fredericksburg & make the Union bleed. If anything, Lee should look after his forces in 1863 & only go onto the offensive in 1864.

[Jason Sleeman]

Not to spoil any possible speculation upcoming timeline but I think DMA, you'll think it a happy ending . I will continue it tommorow.

Cheers all,keep the great feedback comming

Jason Sleeman

[DMA]

Taking everything that's been said & so forth over the last day or so, I'd say this'll be the most likely next step:


Eastern Theatre 1862


The ANV wins another fine victory at Gettysburg. On the fourth day, Lee knowing that the ANV's ammunition supplies are low, & that rumour has it that Union forces are moving north-west from Washington to threaten his rear, issues orders to withdraw to Northern Virginia. The AoP, being somewhat exhausted from three days of battle, offers no resistence. Furthermore, the is command confusion within a AoP as to who is the commanding officer. This adds to the reason why the AoP does little to stop Lee leaving his defences.

The ANV easily makes it back over the Potomac River, but finally Thomas gets the AoP moving again. The Union cavalry catches up with a few Confedrate stragglers & small scale engagements take place. Lee, however, left a brigade at Williamsport to act as rear guard, but no-one remember to issue its final withdrawal orders until it was too late. The AoP pounces on this brigade & it is quickly overrun. It's about the sole victory for the AoP in this sorry affair. After this action, though, the Eastern Theatre settles down as both armies gain much needed supplies & repalcements/reinforcements.


Western Theatre 1862


Jackson is force away from Crump's Landing after Sherman lands at Pittsburg Landing threatening Jackson's rear. This is a mixed blessing for Jackson as he has to withdraw on Corinth to protect the city from falling. Along the way, Jackson is made aware of Buell's force of 25 000 troops also marching on Corinth. Jackson can't believe his luck & takes his 55 000 Rebs on a forced march to intercept Buell. A few days later, Buell is attacked en mass & is forced into a headlong retreat to Memphis to rejoin the other 25 000 Union troops currently there.

Corinth, however, falls to the combined armies of Grant & Sherman. Their overall numbers are 70 000 Union troops, so they have an numerical advantage over Jackson. Buell, regardless of requests from Grant, decides to fortify Memphis which isn't necessarily a bad idea as is rather reminiscent to what Grant did in the face of Jackson when stuck at Crump's Landing. Furthermore, just to keep Buell honest, Jackson dispatches Beauregard with 15 000 troops to put Memphis under siege.

Jackson, meanwhile with 40 000 troops, goes back to his previous tactics of manoeuvre & attacking the fringes of Grant/Sherman's army. As a result, Jackson never fights anything larger than a Union division giving him a 4:1 superiority in these engagement. Whenever Grant can bring his army together to offer Jackson battle, Jackson declines. These tactics continue for some time.


Kentucky Theatre 1862


With Longstreet's Corps being recalled to the ANV to take part in the Gettysburg campaign, Rosecrans finally gets moving. Having about 50 000 Union troops verse 20 000 Rebs, Rosecrans easily forces the smaller Reb army back time & again. Soon Munfordville Kentucky is taken followed by Bowling Green. Rosecrans, however, surprises everyone & continues onward. Within a few weeks Rosecrans threatens Nashville Tennesse. At this point, President Davis orders Lee to do something & suggests that Longstreet & his Corps return to the Kentucky Threatre.

Lee doesn't want to lose anything, let alone an entire Corps to another theatre, but does realise the danger of the situation. Soon, Longstreet's Corps are on trains, which make Chattanooga. Rosecrans, meanwhile, takes Murfreesboro but here he stops as the Confederate defence strengthens. Rosecrans, concerned that he is now facing a strong Confederate force (correctly), goes first on the defensive.

Longstreet immedately takes command of the Confederate Army of Tennessee & attacks with his Corps. Although the attack is eventually repulsed, it confirms Rosecran's suspicions of a larger Confederate force. Longstreet now digs in. Rosecrans notices this & conducts a flanking manoeuvre threating Longstreet rear. Longstreet withdraws & this flanking/withdrawal manoeuvring continues until the Tennesse River when Longstreet digs in on the southern shoreline with his base at Chattanooga. Rosecrans tries several crossing, but is rebuffed.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Wonderful narration, but I have a doubt, DMA.

The Antietam-like-battle you narrated some post ago took place in 1862, IIRC. So, we have again another campaign by Lee in Pennsylvania in 1862? Too much for the logistical capabilites of the ANV, not to speak the time needed to fill again the grey ranks, I think.

Or this Gettysburg campaing you mention is the one that ended in the battle depicted above?

[DMA]

Wonderful narration, but I have a doubt, DMA.

The Antietam-like-battle you narrated some post ago took place in 1862, IIRC. So, we have again another campaign by Lee in Pennsylvania in 1862? Too much for the logistical capabilites of the ANV, not to speak the time needed to fill again the grey ranks, I think.

Or this Gettysburg campaing you mention is the one that ended in the battle depicted above?


No, there's only one major battle in the North in 1862. It's an either/or situation. Either there's the Battle of Hancock OR the Battle of Gettysburg. It's just that Jason thought the South could win at Hancock, but it's pretty clear they couldn't. So he changed his mind & had a Reb victory at Gettysburg (in 1862) instead.

You're quite right Kurt about the logisitics limitations for such battles for the ANV. There's no chance that they could conduct two such campaigns within the same year.

So I went with Jason's change to this timeline in the above "aftermath" description. Sorry for any confusion :o As such, consider the Battle of Hancock a AH to the AH. It's what would have happened if... ;) In its place, however, is this Battle of Gettysburg in 1862.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Ok, I understand now!!! But Lee doesn't win even in this AH Gettysburg... Poor Marse Robert, he is gonna hate Gettysburg :mad: ... Well, at least Meade wasn't in command... :D

But don't despair, we will return to strike!!!!

[DMA]

Ok, I understand now!!! But Lee doesn't win even in this AH Gettysburg... Poor Marse Robert, he is gonna hate Gettysburg :mad: ... Well, at least Meade wasn't in command... :D

But don't despair, we will return to strike!!!!


Well Gettysburg technically is a Southern victory. So there is that much to savour ;)

But Thomas is now GOC Potomac. Lee now has a nightmare on his hands I'd say :eek:

[Hyperion]

I think it would be a bad idea for Buell to go for Corinth. Have Sherman with his 20,000 come down Below Beauregard's troops to the South of Crumps Landing, and have Buell and his 25,000 meet up with Sherman to the south and southwest and try to flank Jackson's forces. After Buell and Sherman are set up, Grant begins an attempt to break out, and Sherman and Buell hit the Rebs from the rear. With enemy troops behind and in front, Jackson will be in a difficult position. Consentrates against Grant's army, he will leave his rear areas exposes, but if he attacks Buell and Sherman in an attempt to get back to Mississippi, he will still take heavy losses, and a lot of his troops will be captured.

Have this battle happen around October 7 of 1862. Time enough to build up Sherman and Buell's forces, and still time when the weather should allow action to take place.

Day 1:

Sherman lands with his corps of 20,000 men at Pittsburg landing. At the same time, Buell and his 25,000 men arrive in the area and link up near Pittsburg landing, with Buell assuming overall command of their forces, since he should be the senior general right now. Beauregard learns that the Union has landed troops south of him, for fear of being cut off, attacks in a southwesterly direction in an attempt to break out. This battle will happen at the area near Snake Creek, and be known as the Battle of Snake Creek, since Shiloh has been used three times now. Beauregard manages to break out and heads for Corinth.

Casualties:

Union: 11,000
Confederacy: 6,000

Day 2:

Jackson and Grant have been fighting a relatively fixed battle, and have actually managed to take relatively minor casualties on both sides, and no ground has changed hands. Jackson has learned of Beauregard's retreat back to Mississippi, but is afraid that if he orders a full retreat, Grant will come after him, and he will be forced to fight a battle on two fronts agains an enemy that now outnumbers his 30,000 men by close to 3 to 1. Sherman and Buell take up positions to the south and to the west of Jackson. Grant, who by now has taken overall command of the battle, realizes that Jackson is currently boxed in 3 sides, with the only real avenue of escape being on his northern flank, which itself has a couple thousand(2,000) Union troops spread out in small company sized units for garrison duty.

Grant has another option as well. After seeing that his position at Crumps landing was not going anywhere, but seeing that keeping 60,000 men in one area would be difficult, he sent 12,000 men to the east side of the Tennessee river. Grant now orders these men to move up river 5 miles, cross the river, and move west to be in postions north of Jackson. Jackson has also taken time to fortify his positions as both he and Grant had no intentions of going anywhere originally, so Grant knows that storming Jackson's positions will be possible, but costly. Grant decides then, to order a blockade of Jackson's army, to deny them the means to escape, and to deny any reinforcements.



So what happens? Does Grant succeed in boxing on Jackson, or will Jackson find a way to get out of this? This could work in either after Hancock or Gettysburg. If it happens after Hancock, the Rebs are in deep trouble. If it happens after Gettysburg, it helps to balance out the books so to speak, and it might give Lincoln some leverage at the negotiating table with the Confederacy and Britain. Also, even though it would probably take at least another week, the Union could probably get some more reinforcements to the area before the Confederates, likely Beauregard, could try to releave Jackson, and these reinforcements would probably work best on the going to the south to reinforce Sherman and Buell for their losses and Snake Creek.

[Jason Sleeman]

On October 20th 1862 The Tangier Island Conference takes place aboard the HMS Yorkshire

Representing the British is Lord Lyons acting as mediator

The French ambassador (Insert name here) is in the role of neutral observer

The Confederate delegation consists of Jefferson Davis, Robert Wigfall, Judah Benjamin, Robert E Lee, Thomas Jackson, Alexander Stephens and Robert Barnwell Rhett.

The Union Delegation Consists of Abraham Lincoln, Francis P Blair Sr, William Seward, Ulysses Grant, George Thomas, Edwin Stanton, and Hannibal Hamlin


The British Proposal- Independence for the Confederate States of Virginia (excluding the Western Counties which will vote by plebiscite on a county by county basis- to be held one year after ratification) North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisianna, Texas, and Arkansas.

As Tennessee is still contested it will (as will western virginia) be demilitarized pending the outcome of a statewide plebicite to be held one year after ratification of the treaty.

Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri are to remain in the Union

Indian Territory is to vote in a plebisite by tribe to determine which nation to join

The Arizona Territory is to remain U.S territory for 10 years after which time a plebiscite will be held to determine the will of it's inhabitants.

The Confederacy will agree as a condition of Independence to a policy of gradually emancipation of chattel slaves. With the institution thereof to be abolished entirely no later than Jan 1 1880

Free Navigation of all rivers bordering both states and Tariff free trade at the Port of New Orleans for U.S ships.


The Union and Confederate commissions each adjourn to vote on the British proposal if approved it will go to each respective senate for ratification

The Vote

Union

Lincoln Aye, Stanton Nay, Hamlin Aye, Seward Aye, Blair Aye, Grant Nay, Thomas, Nay

Vote 4-3 in Favor

Confederacy

Davis Aye, Stephens Nay, Lee Aye, Jackson Aye, Benjamin Nay, Rhett Nay, Wigfall Nay.

Vote 4-3 Against

Now a furious arguement erupts amongst the delegates at the results of such a vote

Lord Lyons is unable to restore the meeting to order

after being crudely insulted by Wigfall Lee storms out Thomas a former friend follows to try to calm Lee

**** So with all hell breaking loose aboard ship what do you think happens next?****

Thoughts welcome as always Jason Sleeman

[Hyperion]

I think the British will need to buy a new ship. Lee and Thomas will steal a row boat and sail off to the Bahamas to get drunk, and then go hunting women.

Now if this happens after Beauregard being chaced out of Tennessee at the battle of Snake Creek, Jackson and his 30,000 men being surrounded and captured, Lincoln might consider not accepting.

[DMA]

I think it would be a bad idea for Buell to go for Corinth. Have Sherman with his 20,000 come down Below Beauregard's troops to the South of Crumps Landing, and have Buell and his 25,000 meet up with Sherman to the south and southwest and try to flank Jackson's forces. After Buell and Sherman are set up, Grant begins an attempt to break out, and Sherman and Buell hit the Rebs from the rear. With enemy troops behind and in front, Jackson will be in a difficult position. Consentrates against Grant's army, he will leave his rear areas exposes, but if he attacks Buell and Sherman in an attempt to get back to Mississippi, he will still take heavy losses, and a lot of his troops will be captured.

Have this battle happen around October 7 of 1862. Time enough to build up Sherman and Buell's forces, and still time when the weather should allow action to take place.

Day 1:

Sherman lands with his corps of 20,000 men at Pittsburg landing. At the same time, Buell and his 25,000 men arrive in the area and link up near Pittsburg landing, with Buell assuming overall command of their forces, since he should be the senior general right now. Beauregard learns that the Union has landed troops south of him, for fear of being cut off, attacks in a southwesterly direction in an attempt to break out. This battle will happen at the area near Snake Creek, and be known as the Battle of Snake Creek, since Shiloh has been used three times now. Beauregard manages to break out and heads for Corinth.

Casualties:

Union: 11,000
Confederacy: 6,000

Day 2:

Jackson and Grant have been fighting a relatively fixed battle, and have actually managed to take relatively minor casualties on both sides, and no ground has changed hands. Jackson has learned of Beauregard's retreat back to Mississippi, but is afraid that if he orders a full retreat, Grant will come after him, and he will be forced to fight a battle on two fronts agains an enemy that now outnumbers his 30,000 men by close to 3 to 1. Sherman and Buell take up positions to the south and to the west of Jackson. Grant, who by now has taken overall command of the battle, realizes that Jackson is currently boxed in 3 sides, with the only real avenue of escape being on his northern flank, which itself has a couple thousand(2,000) Union troops spread out in small company sized units for garrison duty.

Grant has another option as well. After seeing that his position at Crumps landing was not going anywhere, but seeing that keeping 60,000 men in one area would be difficult, he sent 12,000 men to the east side of the Tennessee river. Grant now orders these men to move up river 5 miles, cross the river, and move west to be in postions north of Jackson. Jackson has also taken time to fortify his positions as both he and Grant had no intentions of going anywhere originally, so Grant knows that storming Jackson's positions will be possible, but costly. Grant decides then, to order a blockade of Jackson's army, to deny them the means to escape, and to deny any reinforcements.



So what happens? Does Grant succeed in boxing on Jackson, or will Jackson find a way to get out of this? This could work in either after Hancock or Gettysburg. If it happens after Hancock, the Rebs are in deep trouble. If it happens after Gettysburg, it helps to balance out the books so to speak, and it might give Lincoln some leverage at the negotiating table with the Confederacy and Britain. Also, even though it would probably take at least another week, the Union could probably get some more reinforcements to the area before the Confederates, likely Beauregard, could try to releave Jackson, and these reinforcements would probably work best on the going to the south to reinforce Sherman and Buell for their losses and Snake Creek.


Well this is a nice battle & all Hyperion, but you miss one key point. Jackson is the master of manoeuvre. He's no fool. As a result, you won't get the battle that you're wanting here.

So a few observations:

1) Buell at Memphis, even though he easily takes the city, will nevertheless be watched by Reb scouts & whoever survives Buell's victory. Even Forrest, when he hears of the fall of Memphis, may return & conduct an observation role. The Rebs, mind you, can't stop Buell doing whatever he wants, as I'd say they have only a thousand or so personnel, but what they will do is inform Jackson of the situation.

2) Likewise Jackson will be well aware when Sherman paddlewheels his way past Crump's Landing. All jackson has to do is look over at the river as 20 or so troop ships etc sail past his vantage point. Jackson will know, more or less immediately, that this Union force is going to land south of him & try to pin him against Grant's lines. No doubt about it. So Jackson will pack up immediately, conduct a forced march west at first, & then south to safety. Sorry, but there won't be any battle.

3) Now if Buell, around the same time, heads off with 25 000 troops, he'll be heading towards Corinth whether he likes it or not. It's on the way towards Shiloh. Now Jackson's forces could always travel twice as fast as any other army regardless whether it'll be Reb or Union. Furthermore, Jackson only need to travel about 10 miles to get to Corinth, whilst Buell has to travel about 70 miles to get to the same place. So Buell will still be some distance from Shiloh, maybe even 20 miles away. Indeed he'll still be about 10 miles to the west of Corinth. If so, then Jackson, with twice the numbers, will attack Buell.

By the time the battle is over, Buell will be in head long retreat towards Memphis, but Grant/Sherman would realise by now what's happened & come rushing to Buell's aid. However, they'll be too late. Jackson will split his force, send 15 000 troops with Beauregard to chase after Buell, whilst the rest he keeps himself & conducts manoeuvre after manoeuvre ensuring that Grant/Sherman can't get near him, all the while Jackson is harrasing the Union troops. I'd say somewhere in all this activity, Grant will take Corinth, but won't be able to bring Jackson to battle - that is until Jackson wants a big show down. But it'll be on ground of Jackson's choosing & on his terms.

[DMA]

**** So with all hell breaking loose aboard ship what do you think happens next?****

Thoughts welcome as always Jason Sleeman

Sorry Jason, but I can't accept the Union vote. Lincoln voting yes to Confederate independence? Not on a million Sundays. His whole argument, to go to war, was to preserve the Union, not to allow it to break away into two countries. So the votes on both sides will end in no.

Whatever arguments they will have to wait until they're back on shore. But then again I'd highly doubt that the Union would have agreed to this peace conference in the first place.

As I said, even after the OTL Union disasters at Fredericksburg & Chancellorsville, there wasn't any peace conference. And certainly Lincoln never wavered in his determination to ensure the Union remained as it was. I see no where, in this AH, for him to change his mind now.