President Rice 2008-2024

[Aussey]

It was the first Tuesday in November, 2008. It had been a tight race between Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and her running mate Senator McCain of Arizona. They had been running a tight race against Massachusets senator John Kerry, and North Carolina Senator John Edwards. This was the second time that Kerry-Edwards had run for president. So far, it was a close tie. Only Secretary Rice's homestate of Alabama was left.

Suddenly the screen blinked, and the map changed. The much awaited vote from the State of Alabama came in. Rice!!!As of 12:38AM Wednesday November 4, 2008 Condoleezza Rice became not only the first African American, but also the first woman to be President of the 52 United States of America.
__________________________________________________ ______________

[Straha]

I hate to say this but I don't see america EVER electing a black president. A hispanic or asian or even a woman president Sure. THeres too much of a racist bias in america for a black person to be elected president or even VP.

[Matt]

No way in hell the dems would run Kerry again. To much of an albatross.

[Aussey]

America would definatley elect Rice, as she's smarter than our current President...And the Dems are already thinking of running Kerry again anyways...

[carlton_bach]

America would definatley elect Rice, as she's smarter than our current President...

that's - not much of a qualification.

[Imajin]

I can see Rice winning. She'd be backed by the Republican Propaganda Machine, so any opponent- be it Jesus himself, could easily be domonized enough to give her the elections.

Though her term in office ending in 2024 seems a bit crazy, considering term limits.

[Farnham]

I'm more of an optimist than Straha. I think Americans are willing to elect a black president. Although I don't think Condi wants the job.

[hans]

:eek:
It's nightmare!

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

America would definatley elect Rice, as she's smarter than our current President...And the Dems are already thinking of running Kerry again anyways...

You have got to be kidding. Rice is so totally lacking in charisma and is such a condescendin bitch that she had absolutely no chance of being elected. I am encouraged by all this talk of running her - FINALLY, the GOP will run a candidate that even a Democrat can beat. Hell, I'll be Hillary Clinton would beat her.

[Aussey]

to 2024 is because I see a limit extent, by one term...

[FederationX]

I would never want her to be our president! :eek:

[Aussey]

I would never want her to be our president! :eek:


GASP!!!SHE WOULD BE THE BEST PRESIDENT EVER!!!!!!!!!

[FederationX]

GASP!!!SHE WOULD BE THE BEST PRESIDENT EVER!!!!!!!!!

Your killing me, Smalls.

[DominusNovus]

to 2024 is because I see a limit extent, by one term...
You mean by two terms? Adding one term gives you 12 years, 2020 (coincidentally, the first year I can run).

[DominusNovus]

I hate to say this but I don't see america EVER electing a black president. A hispanic or asian or even a woman president Sure. THeres too much of a racist bias in america for a black person to be elected president or even VP.
Not even Powell? I could definately see him getting elected.

[Raymann]

Are ya'll kidding me, half the GOP is ready to draft her for '08 already. Straha, what country are you from? Rice would bring the entire right of America together, she's very conservative, hates the UN, and pro-war. The only thing that she is on the left of is abortion which wouldn't lose her any votes due to her being so conservative on other issues. On the other hand all she has is votes to gain, most notably women and blacks, which the dems have the majority of now.

She runs, she wins garenteed.

[DominusNovus]

Are ya'll kidding me, half the GOP is ready to draft her for '08 already. Straha, what country are you from? Rice would bring the entire right of America together, she's very conservative, hates the UN, and pro-war. The only thing that she is on the left of is abortion which wouldn't lose her any votes due to her being so conservative on other issues. On the other hand all she has is votes to gain, most notably women and blacks, which the dems have the majority of now.

She runs, she wins garenteed.
Good points, but I could see her losing many of the more religious elements of the GOP. Not that that is an absolutely bad thing... Alot of those guys give both Republicans and Christians bad names (and produce reactionaries like MEJ).

[Farnham]

I think Powell could have gotten elected had he chose to run in '96 or 2000. Polls showed him popular with the public anyway. He couldn't win it now. Republicans distrust him because of his relative dovishness and Democrats would stay away because he worked for the hated W.
As for Condi, I think she'd be a competent executive. She's educated, a "Second Amendment absolutist" in her own words (based on her experiences growing up) and able. Problem is, I'm not sure where she stands on abortion. I think she's pro-abortion or wishy-washy on it. May get her cut down in the primaries, if she ran.

[Raymann]

I don't see that, the far right really doesn't care about race, its burnt out in the South as far as I'm concerned. Take Alabama, her home state, for instance. You all remember that issue with Judge Pickering and the 10 commandments statue? It was removed but not before most of the state was there supporting him. I distinctly remember several of his speeches where it was him on the stage and about 30 black ministers behind him supporting him.

My point is, religion is a hell of a lot important then race when it comes to the political far right. Having Rice run would essencially break the race card that the Dems have been running on for 30 years. In SOME circles it might even switch to the Republicans "how many blacks have the democrats put in high positions" that type of talk. Republicans have Powell, Rice, Clarence Thomas, and a few others in appointed positions. What do the democrats have?

That said, then again the race card might not change parties but even if it dosen't, it def won't get as much.

[Othniel]

I hate to say this but I don't see america EVER electing a black president. A hispanic or asian or even a woman president Sure. THeres too much of a racist bias in america for a black person to be elected president or even VP.
I could see a black president. One of the republican nominations for 2000 was a black, (Keyes I think)and I think he got 12%-14%. MaCain had something like 24%-38%, and Bush was above fifty but bellow sixity in most cases. If it wasn't for Bush's dad we'd see McCain as President. A US with a flat tax....

[Matt]

Rice vs Obama maybe? That would kill the Reps race advantage. Well he be old enough by then though?

[Thyme]

I can see America voting in a black president, but it would have to be a republican. A black republican could run a a conservative, hold onto the all of the republican base except a few racists, and split the black vote. The candidates race would only raised as an issue by opponents, who would mostly lose by doing so. A black democrat would tend (at least those currently at the national level) to run as a black first, and a liberal second. A new generation of politicians could take care of this, but that will take time (at least a decade, and more likely two or three). They could run a candidate who was a social conservative, and an economic liberal (assuming they could find a good one), but would have problems with the party heirarchy.

[MerryPrankster]

I can see America voting in a black president, but it would have to be a republican. A black republican could run a a conservative, hold onto the all of the republican base except a few racists, and split the black vote. The candidates race would only raised as an issue by opponents, who would mostly lose by doing so. A black democrat would tend (at least those currently at the national level) to run as a black first, and a liberal second. A new generation of politicians could take care of this, but that will take time (at least a decade, and more likely two or three). They could run a candidate who was a social conservative, and an economic liberal (assuming they could find a good one), but would have problems with the party heirarchy.

I agree, Thyme.

I think Obama might be a viable candidate--the media all but fell down and worshipped him when he was elected Senator last year.

[Aussey]

Rice vs. Obama....oh how it'd suck to be a red-neck-racist from Jackson, Mississippi

[Othniel]

I do see a larger chance for a hispanic presidnet though. The largest minority of the US will sometime in the next 40 years hold office at least once.

[DominusNovus]

I don't see that, the far right really doesn't care about race, its burnt out in the South as far as I'm concerned. Take Alabama, her home state, for instance. You all remember that issue with Judge Pickering and the 10 commandments statue? It was removed but not before most of the state was there supporting him. I distinctly remember several of his speeches where it was him on the stage and about 30 black ministers behind him supporting him.

My point is, religion is a hell of a lot important then race when it comes to the political far right. Having Rice run would essencially break the race card that the Dems have been running on for 30 years. In SOME circles it might even switch to the Republicans "how many blacks have the democrats put in high positions" that type of talk. Republicans have Powell, Rice, Clarence Thomas, and a few others in appointed positions. What do the democrats have?

That said, then again the race card might not change parties but even if it dosen't, it def won't get as much.
Wasn't one of the prominant black ministers (Jackson or Sharpton) giving a speech a few weeks ago, about how Powell, Rice, Thomas, didn't count? Something like they were tokens or they had betrayed the race, or some gibberish like that.

[zoomar]

I also agree with Thyme. The first African-American president will have to be a Republican - or at least a conservative not associated in the public eye with civil rights activism. Probably the same for women. That's why Rice actually could be a good candidate. The problem with Rice (and Powell for that matter) is that neither of them have ever run for or held elective office before, and their prior experience in leadership (academia and the military) would not lend itself to the kind on compromizing and wheeling-dealing which produces electable polititians. As much as I hate to say it, that's why I expect our first female President may well be Bill's wife. But I would not underestimate Rice, she is very quick-witted, a very effective debater, and can be quite charming when she needs to be as witnessed by how well she manipulated various European leaders and audiences during her recent trip to Rurope.

[Wildcard]

No way Rice gets the nomination. The GOP will never nominate a pro-choice candidate, which dooms her, Guiliani, Pataki, and McCain to lose. GOP candidates for 2008 include Virginia Senator George Allen, Massachusets Governor Mitt Romney, SC Governor Mark Sanford, Bill Frist, and possibly Rick Santorum if he wins re-election.

[Raymann]

DominusNovus, you have to realize that the black "leadership" is nowadays irrevelent. They have next to no influence and are a bunch of racist commie-huggers which no one except the media listens to. Its their way or the highway except their way drives you off a cliff politically.

The GOP will run whoever they think will win. Thats politics. You have to look long and hard to find anyone protesting Rice because she isn't pro-choice. Granted that has little to do her current or previous job but that didn't stop them going after Ashcroft or Rumsfield on the same issue.

Guiliani and other pro-choice canidates are still viable canidates but I'd have to rule out McCain, he's made too many GOP enemies, I don't even like him.

[Landshark]

President of the 52 United States of America.

Fifty Two States?

An extra two states admitted in just three years?

Even if the various bits of the US government could work that fast where are these two states going to come from?

(Don't even think of saying Canada)

The only two places that may be anywhere near close are Puerto Rico and Washington DC and Iran has more chance than the latter of getting through a Republican dominated Congress.

[Raymann]

Don't know, I think one is Puerto Rico and the other is Canada (there, I said it!). We of course wanted to invade but we didin't want to lose elections because of it so Rice made the whole country a state and capped the representatives.

[Othniel]

Or a state could split.

[Aussey]

State of the District of Columbia and Commonwealth of Puerto Rico

[Landshark]

Don't know, I think one is Puerto Rico and the other is Canada (there, I said it!). We of course wanted to invade but we didin't want to lose elections because of it so Rice made the whole country a state and capped the representatives.

Yeah so you did.

You weren't being at all a pathetically predictable sniggering frat boy who thinks he's just so fucking cool that the entire damn planet revolves around him there were you.

[FederationX]

What about Guam?

[Imajin]

What about Guam?
Guam seems a bit small. I think it's Puerto Rico, and perhaps Michigan split? Or maybe Castro died and Cuba decided to apply fpr statehood for some reason.

[Landshark]

Or a state could split.

That West Washington/East Washington thing?

Maybe but I still can't see the creation of new states overcoming government inertia in under three years.

[Aussey]

I always saw a Pacifican State being made out of all US Pacific possesions. I also see a re-established Kingdom of Hawaii in the next hundred years. I have a plan for US taking over and liberating Cuba during Rice's presidency, and an even more open border between the US and Canada...Any other things you see happening....Like A North American Union (NAU) compared to the EU, with the North American dollar....

[Raymann]

Hey, I'm not in a frat!

[Othniel]

Maybe we buy Baja off the Mexicans....or invade Cuba....and then declare it a state...maybe just 'aquire' New land...

[DominusNovus]

You weren't being at all a pathetically predictable sniggering frat boy who thinks he's just so fucking cool that the entire damn planet revolves around him there were you.
Geez, research your insults before you hurl them around. :p

Besides, I'm sure Raymann doesn't think the world revolves around him. Around his country, sure. But not him.

[Aussey]

I dont see Baja being US any time Soon, Sonora, Nuevo Leon, and that other one maybe....maybe Cuba, and the Virgin Islands as official states...

[Raymann]

Thank you Dominus, actually I thinkt he Earth revolves around the sun but its only a matter of time before the US claims that too. :)

[eschaton]

I always saw a Pacifican State being made out of all US Pacific possesions. I also see a re-established Kingdom of Hawaii in the next hundred years. I have a plan for US taking over and liberating Cuba during Rice's presidency, and an even more open border between the US and Canada...Any other things you see happening....Like A North American Union (NAU) compared to the EU, with the North American dollar....

Man, your plan sounds absolutely nightmarish. I'd post more on why if I was sober.

[Grey Wolf]

The GOP will run whoever they think will win. Thats politics. You have to look long and hard to find anyone protesting Rice because she isn't pro-choice. Granted that has little to do her current or previous job but that didn't stop them going after Ashcroft or Rumsfield on the same issue.

Guiliani and other pro-choice canidates are still viable canidates but I'd have to rule out McCain, he's made too many GOP enemies, I don't even like him.

Er, why should the fact of whether you like him or not be relevant ?

As for "The GOP will run", you are aware that its not up to a central body to decide, but to the members in the states via the primaries ?

McCain's possible candidacy will depend on his position within the media, which will be largely based upon how he handles himself as the respectable senior member in Congress (pretty good so far by the looks of it), and how he is able to portray himself in the primaries against the machinations and lies of whoever is Bush's chosen successor.

Grey Wolf

[carlton_bach]

Maybe we buy Baja off the Mexicans....or invade Cuba....and then declare it a state...maybe just 'aquire' New land...

hmm... if you just took all the landfill that accumulates in all the East Coast cities, shipped it out to a place at the edge of territorial waters and dumped it there until the top sticks out, then tamped that down and used it as a landfill site... what is required to qualify for 'island' status? Anyway, over the next years or decades you could build that thing into a wide strip of land in front of the coast, call it the State of Atlantia. You even get the extra benefit of having something in the way when the megatsunami hits, and New Jersey finally gets a break from all the 'toxic dump' jokes.

[Burton]

If there's any smut on "Brown Sugar" would it necessarily have come up already? Or are they treating her with kid gloves?

Is it known if she currently has intimate lliasons (including girl-girl, as is rumoured Hillary)?

Or is Condi one of the growing number of those born post-1955 who are totally asexual (due to hormones in the food and pollution)?

Or is she one of those typical "Alabama Missies" who had sex once in their youth with a big boyfriend and vowed never, ever, ever again, due to dyspareunia (pain on intromission)?!

[Yossarian]

Condi has said on every news program that she has been on that she does not want to be president under any circumstances. The reason why the republican blacks in high position don't count is that they're non-elected. While there are black democrat senators, congressman, etc, the highest black republican elected official is deputy governor of Maryland.

[Derek Jackson]

I do not think that Ms Rice will seek the Republican nomination. I think she would have problems because of her allegedly pro choice views and perhaps because of unconsious racism,

Given her record in supporting a war of aggression based on a lie I hope that she does not become President/

If she were nominated I rather assume she would win. I think that she would poll a much bigger proportion of the black vote than most Republicans. That would make a Democrat victory very hard.

I do not see the dates. Mr GW Bush will be President until January 2009 if he lives unless there is some major health scare or massive scandal enough to cause resignation or impeachment.

I do not see the 22nd Amendment being repealed

[Raymann]

Grey Wolf, I've worked on two compaigns already, I think I have some idea on how elections work.

Burton, what kind of sick shit is that?

Yossarian, of course she's not going to say she wants to be president, no one does until they actually join the race. Its tatics, they can't say much against her if she's not officially running and she doesn't want to undermind Bush by shifting attention to '08 instead of today.

[DominusNovus]

Er, why should the fact of whether you like him or not be relevant ?

As for "The GOP will run", you are aware that its not up to a central body to decide, but to the members in the states via the primaries ?
As I understand it, it is up to the central body. The primaries are pretty much just to see where the people stand.

[csa945]

Condi as the GOP nominee in '08 is all that I think is likely. McCain will be 72 in '08. He will not want to be VP, epecially if term limits are upped, in which case he would be older than 80 by the time he got his chance at the White House. Giuliani on the other hand . . .

I'm surprised to see so many people say that the GOP would never nominate a candidate who has ever made a mildly pro-choice statement. Now if we were talking about the Democrats nominating a pro-lifer, that's an entirely different story. The GOP is much more accepting of differing viewpoints on the subject of abortion than Democrats are. After all, the most visible of President Bush's campaign celebrities were McCain, Giuliani and Schwarzenegger, all pro-choice. See any pro-lifers with Kerry?

Speaking of whom, Kerry is damaged goods. If he tries to run in '08, Hillary will mop the floor with him.

Edwards's political career is over. He might get an ambassadorship or a judicial appointment(which he might be remotely qualified for) if a Democrat is elected president anytime soon, but that would be about it.

As for Hilary's running-mate, I saw a lot of people tossing around Clinton-Obama 2012 stuff before the 2004 election was over.

btw, this won't be alternate history for another 4 years at least.

[csa945]

Condi has said on every news program that she has been on that she does not want to be president under any circumstances. The reason why the republican blacks in high position don't count is that they're non-elected. While there are black democrat senators, congressman, etc, the highest black republican elected official is deputy governor of Maryland.

Everyone says that they're not going to run for president initially. It would be too presumptious.

I was under the impression that the office of US Congressman was higher than deputy-governor. Ever heard of J.C. Watts?

[eschaton]

JC Watts left the U.S. house some time ago. Despite still being a committed conservative, he said his experience in washinton left him disgusted at how he was used by the party for tokenism.

Condaleeza Rice has next to no charisma, and we have seen how poorly uncharasmatic presidential candidates have done in recent years, at least when nominated by Democrats. Plus, as others have said, the persistant rumors of her lesbianism will make some people uneasy.

2008 seems wide open to me, but I think McCain is too old now for the Reps, Guliani is too damaged, Bill Frist needs to find some way to spin his past as a cat-killer, so I don't really see who the Reps are going to nominate. The Dems don't have shit for 2008 either, though I think Warner is probably their best bet (that new governer from Montana is damned interesting too). If a Democrat is not elected by 2008, Obama will be president in 2012. That man oozes everything the dems have lacked in recent years.

[Aussey]

JC Watts left the U.S. house some time ago. Despite still being a committed conservative, he said his experience in washinton left him disgusted at how he was used by the party for tokenism.

Condaleeza Rice has next to no charisma, and we have seen how poorly uncharasmatic presidential candidates have done in recent years, at least when nominated by Democrats. Plus, as others have said, the persistant rumors of her lesbianism will make some people uneasy.

2008 seems wide open to me, but I think McCain is too old now for the Reps, Guliani is too damaged, Bill Frist needs to find some way to spin his past as a cat-killer, so I don't really see who the Reps are going to nominate. The Dems don't have shit for 2008 either, though I think Warner is probably their best bet (that new governer from Montana is damned interesting too). If a Democrat is not elected by 2008, Obama will be president in 2012. That man oozes everything the dems have lacked in recent years.


Rice-Schwartzenager vs. Clinton-Obama 2008

[Othniel]

Rice-Schwartzenager vs. Clinton-Obama 2008
Schwartzenager would be AH, because this would mean he was either born of US citzens or on US soil....

[Aussey]

Schwartzenager would be AH, because this would mean he was either born of US citzens or on US soil....

But Austria, like Germany, was formally governed by the allies. ANy chance his part of Austria was US controlled at the time of his birth?

[Othniel]

But Austria, like Germany, was formally governed by the allies. ANy chance his part of Austria was US controlled at the time of his birth?
It means a territory or commonwealth of the US. It would have to become a full part of the US in order for anybody from Austria to be considered that...or maybe he could prove one of his parents was American. What's the chance his mother slept with an American Soldier?

[Wildcard]

2008 seems wide open to me, but I think McCain is too old now for the Reps, Guliani is too damaged, Bill Frist needs to find some way to spin his past as a cat-killer, so I don't really see who the Reps are going to nominate. The Dems don't have shit for 2008 either, though I think Warner is probably their best bet (that new governer from Montana is damned interesting too). If a Democrat is not elected by 2008, Obama will be president in 2012. That man oozes everything the dems have lacked in recent years.


For Democrats, Senator Bayh is a decent choice if they want to nominate a Senator. Gov. Bedresen of TN could put the south in play in ways Warner couldn't. If they want someone more liberal, Joe Biden brings foreign policy creds that John Kerry wouldn't kill his wife for. Maybe Governor Easley of NC will run to.

For Republicans, Governor Sanford (SC) or Governor Pawlenty (MN) are possiblities.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

She will not win because:

1. She has not held elected office, which makes a big difference
2. She has the charisma of a fence post (which is being unkind to fenceposts)
3. She is a bitch, and there are millions of miles of footage of her wearing either a condescending sneer or a painfully fake smile - she makes Cheney look cuddly
4. She is an incompetent, technocratic courtesan that will fall flat on her face once she is out of her tightly-controlled milleu.

She will not get the black vote. Noooooo wayyyy. And I think being black is the least of her concerns. Do you think Republicans are going to vote for Hillary Clinton or whomever just because Rice is Black?

I do not think that Ms Rice will seek the Republican nomination. I think she would have problems because of her allegedly pro choice views and perhaps because of unconsious racism,

Given her record in supporting a war of aggression based on a lie I hope that she does not become President/

If she were nominated I rather assume she would win. I think that she would poll a much bigger proportion of the black vote than most Republicans. That would make a Democrat victory very hard.

I do not see the dates. Mr GW Bush will be President until January 2009 if he lives unless there is some major health scare or massive scandal enough to cause resignation or impeachment.

I do not see the 22nd Amendment being repealed

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

As for "The GOP will run", you are aware that its not up to a central body to decide, but to the members in the states via the primaries?

It only appears that way. The party has enormous influence over who is nominated. That's why McCain was destroyed by Bush even though the latter is a moron and the former one of the most popular politicians in the country. Bush was the party man, McCain is an outsider.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The GOP is much more accepting of differing viewpoints on the subject of abortion than Democrats are. After all, the most visible of President Bush's campaign celebrities were McCain, Giuliani and Schwarzenegger, all pro-choice. See any pro-lifers with Kerry?

OH... MY... GOD. What the f#$% are you talking about? The GOP is TOTALLY intolerant of pro-choice views. The convention and campaign use of the teeny number of GOP pro-choicers was a cynical attempt to deceive the electorate. California and NY are totally different (Giuliani is only nominally republican), and Arizona is still a Goldwater Republican state. None of them will EVER be the nominee, even if they DO change the constitution to allow foreign-born people and Italians to become President.

[Othniel]

OH... MY... GOD. What the f#$% are you talking about? The GOP is TOTALLY intolerant of pro-choice views. The convention and campaign use of the teeny number of GOP pro-choicers was a cynical attempt to deceive the electorate. California and NY are totally different (Giuliani is only nominally republican), and Arizona is still a Goldwater Republican state. None of them will EVER be the nominee, even if they DO change the constitution to allow foreign-born people and Italians to become President.
That would allow someone like Orin Hatch to run...oh jeez, a mormon as president? I don't think a Utahan will ever get elected....People just don't know enough....now if we could get a Wyoming Senator or Rep to run I'd support them...nominally...

[csa945]

JC Watts left the U.S. house some time ago. Despite still being a committed conservative, he said his experience in washinton left him disgusted at how he was used by the party for tokenism.

Condaleeza Rice has next to no charisma, and we have seen how poorly uncharasmatic presidential candidates have done in recent years, at least when nominated by Democrats. Plus, as others have said, the persistant rumors of her lesbianism will make some people uneasy.

2008 seems wide open to me, but I think McCain is too old now for the Reps, Guliani is too damaged, Bill Frist needs to find some way to spin his past as a cat-killer, so I don't really see who the Reps are going to nominate. The Dems don't have shit for 2008 either, though I think Warner is probably their best bet (that new governer from Montana is damned interesting too). If a Democrat is not elected by 2008, Obama will be president in 2012. That man oozes everything the dems have lacked in recent years.

I wasn't saying that Watts was presidential material, but that he held a higher elected office than deputy-governor of Maryland. If you had payed more attention to my post you would have realized that.

Rice has considerably more charisma than Kerry and Gore put together, and, frankly, being an African-American woman, she doesn't need as much as a caucasian man would. As far as rumors of her being a lesbian go, I have never heard of them until this thread, so they could hardly be persistent or wide-spread as much as interest as I have in politics. I have heard rumors about her and the president having an affair, but only a couple and from far left comedians, so they are no different than the former, that is they were just invented by some disgruntled leftists who can't stand the idea of "Aunt Jemima," as they call her, in the white house.

In what way is Giuliani damaged? He has a connection to the Bernie Kerik scandal, but 4 years will be plenty of time for him to have been forgiven. He has also been divorced a couple of times, but then again, Reagan had been divorced as well.

McCain too old? Debatable. If elected, he would be the oldest man in US history to be elected president, 3 years older than Reagan was. But, around the world, it is not too uncommon for men of such age to be elected.

Frist's problem is not his childhood medical experiments on felines. It is his lack of charisma, and his connection to big drug companies.

In the long run, though, Republicans are more opportunistic than Democrats. Republicans supported Schwarzenegger in California and you have arch-conservative Orrin Hatch proposing a constitutional amendment that would allow Schwarzenegger (in addition to Granholm an Martinez) to run for president, even though California's governor is more liberal than some Democrats on multiple issues. Democrats couldn't even agree to disagree enough in 2004, which is why Kerry had to continually change his positions during the election -- to keep them all happy.

Barring her death or defeat for the senate in 2006 by Giuliani (or maybe Powell, though that's highly unlikely), Hillary Clinton will have the Democratic nomination. There may (and probably are) other candidates who could do better than her, but the Democrats are so enamoured of her, she will be nominated. She is the only one with instant name recognition among non-politicals nationwide. I have respect for both Warner and Bredesen, but neither would be able to beat Hillary. Bayh and Richardson stand a better chance, but Bayh has been too conservative, and in addition to being too moderate, Richardson wasn't able to secure New Mexico for Kerry. With the way the DNC is going now, Dean as chairman, the ones who have the best chances (though still not good ones) of dethroning Hillary as queen of the democrats are those on the hard left, like Barbara Boxer or Joe Biden. Neither of them could win a national election, though.

[csa945]

OH... MY... GOD. What the f#$% are you talking about? The GOP is TOTALLY intolerant of pro-choice views.

How many pro-lifers on Clinton's cabinet?

How many pro-choicers were on Bush's cabinet?

How many pro-lifers gave primetime speeches at the DNC?

How many pro-choicers gave primetime speeches at the RNC?

You can provide no evidence to counter the evidence I have presented, only hollow rhetoric.

The most prominent pro-life Democrat is Harry Reid and he doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hell at getting any higher than he is right now. He's already out of his league and he would have been quietly brushed aside in a couple of years if Daschle hadn't lost.

[csa945]

...oh jeez, a mormon as president?

Mitt Romney.

[Stalin]

I'm surprised to see so many people say that the GOP would never nominate a candidate who has ever made a mildly pro-choice statement. Now if we were talking about the Democrats nominating a pro-lifer, that's an entirely different story. The GOP is much more accepting of differing viewpoints on the subject of abortion than Democrats are. After all, the most visible of President Bush's campaign celebrities were McCain, Giuliani and Schwarzenegger, all pro-choice. See any pro-lifers with Kerry?


McCain is actually pro-life. He’s said that he thinks abortion should be banned outside of rape, incest, or when the mother’s life is threatened (I’m basing that on the New York Times and Boston Globe).

Anyway, I think Abdul is absolutely right: Rudy and Arnold are just token moderates – the bulk of the party is pretty blatantly controlled by neo-cons, the religious right/pro-lifers, business interests, etc.

[Othniel]

Mitt Romney.
There is an intresting case, I didn't think he was mormon though, he was only on the SLCOC. And I thought that was all, that and he shouldn't have been messing around with his residence when wishing to be elected govener....

[Straha]

The way things are going the absolute EARLIEST we'll see a POTUS of african descenet is in the 2060's(and I think even that is pushing the envelope of
plausibility). IT took 100 years after slavery for civil rights so it will probably take that long if not longer for the US to even CONSIDER voting for a black president. The best that you could get would be the black candidate winning DC and maybe rhode island.

[csa945]

There is an intresting case, I didn't think he was mormon though, he was only on the SLCOC. And I thought that was all, that and he shouldn't have been messing around with his residence when wishing to be elected govener....

Yep, he's a Mormon. He recently crakced a joke relating to that at a roast or something to that effect. "As a Mormon, I believe marriage is between a man and a woman . . . and a woman and a woman and a woman."

BTW, what's the SLOCC? And what was he doing with his residence? I don't really know much about him.

[csa945]

McCain is actually pro-life. He’s said that he thinks abortion should be banned outside of rape, incest, or when the mother’s life is threatened (I’m basing that on the New York Times and Boston Globe).

Ah, yes. I see (just Googling McCain and Abortion) he has voted traditionally pro-life. I was mistaken. It appears as though he has done some waffling on the issue, though, and there are some pro-life groups that are pretty pissed off at him, though.

[eschaton]

I wasn't saying that Watts was presidential material, but that he held a higher elected office than deputy-governor of Maryland. If you had payed more attention to my post you would have realized that.

Rice has considerably more charisma than Kerry and Gore put together, and, frankly, being an African-American woman, she doesn't need as much as a caucasian man would. As far as rumors of her being a lesbian go, I have never heard of them until this thread, so they could hardly be persistent or wide-spread as much as interest as I have in politics. I have heard rumors about her and the president having an affair, but only a couple and from far left comedians, so they are no different than the former, that is they were just invented by some disgruntled leftists who can't stand the idea of "Aunt Jemima," as they call her, in the white house.

In what way is Giuliani damaged? He has a connection to the Bernie Kerik scandal, but 4 years will be plenty of time for him to have been forgiven. He has also been divorced a couple of times, but then again, Reagan had been divorced as well.

McCain too old? Debatable. If elected, he would be the oldest man in US history to be elected president, 3 years older than Reagan was. But, around the world, it is not too uncommon for men of such age to be elected.

Frist's problem is not his childhood medical experiments on felines. It is his lack of charisma, and his connection to big drug companies.

In the long run, though, Republicans are more opportunistic than Democrats. Republicans supported Schwarzenegger in California and you have arch-conservative Orrin Hatch proposing a constitutional amendment that would allow Schwarzenegger (in addition to Granholm an Martinez) to run for president, even though California's governor is more liberal than some Democrats on multiple issues. Democrats couldn't even agree to disagree enough in 2004, which is why Kerry had to continually change his positions during the election -- to keep them all happy.

Barring her death or defeat for the senate in 2006 by Giuliani (or maybe Powell, though that's highly unlikely), Hillary Clinton will have the Democratic nomination. There may (and probably are) other candidates who could do better than her, but the Democrats are so enamoured of her, she will be nominated. She is the only one with instant name recognition among non-politicals nationwide. I have respect for both Warner and Bredesen, but neither would be able to beat Hillary. Bayh and Richardson stand a better chance, but Bayh has been too conservative, and in addition to being too moderate, Richardson wasn't able to secure New Mexico for Kerry. With the way the DNC is going now, Dean as chairman, the ones who have the best chances (though still not good ones) of dethroning Hillary as queen of the democrats are those on the hard left, like Barbara Boxer or Joe Biden. Neither of them could win a national election, though.

Your original post was in response to someone saying the highest black republican elected offical was the lt. governor of Maryland. I wasn't questioning Watts ability to be president at all. I was questioning the way you inferred that he was still involved in politics, when he is not.

I think that the rumors of Rice's lesbianism spring from the fact that, generally speaking, seemingly asexual men/women, especially in positions in the public eye. Honestly, I think that it would be less politically damaging for her, in some ways, if she were an out lesbian who had a long term partner, because I think that with any potential president, but especially a woman, a life of being single sets off warning flags of "is this person normal and well-adjusted?" America is just not ready for a single, independent woman to be president.

As for the presidental affair, the only thing I have ever heard is once Condi screwed up in an interview and called Bush "my husband." I would guess they might have a close friendship, but naught more than that.

Her other major problem is she's an intellectual who specialized in cold-war international relations, and, like many intellectuals, has a hard time reframing when new data clashes with her theories, which are now rather outmoded. Intellectuals make terrible presidential candidates, and I can't think of anyone aside from Wilson who could be called an intellectual who ever won.

I think you're sadly right about Hillary, though my wishful thinking makes me not want her to win. I don't know where the right gets these ideas of her as a liberal, because much like her husband she is a 'moderate' if by that you mean free-trade supporting, interventionist shill of big business. I'm way to the left of even liberal democrats anyway, but the DLCs politics have been nothing but poison to the party as they have given up their working class base in favor a bunch of latte-drinkers.

Aside from the Kerik thing, Guliani not only is divorced, but from what I remember was pretty openly having an affair near the end of his divorce. I don't think that plays over well in much of the country.

Biden a leftist? Hahahaha! That man is a shill of finance and a hawk.

The dem with the biggest chance of beating Hillary in 2008 is Russ Feingold I think. He's got the balls to take unpopular positions and defend them vigorously. He even voted to support Ashcroft, unlike many on the left, on constitutional grounds (which he considers more important than political grounds). He routinely gets the votes of many moderates and conservatives in his state despite being one of the most liberal members of the senate. I think he has what it takes. That said, Hillary will take it.

*sigh*

[csa945]

Aside from the Kerik thing, Guliani not only is divorced, but from what I remember was pretty openly having an affair near the end of his divorce. I don't think that plays over well in much of the country.

Biden a leftist? Hahahaha! That man is a shill of finance and a hawk.

Well, Giuliani is (or at least was near the end of the 2004 election) one of the 4 most popular political figures(I believe overall, but it may have just been GOP) in the country, along with Schwarzenegger, McCain, and Laura Bush. He's also usually come out very high on pre-Republican primary polls I've seen (the highest, IIRC).

Okay, maybe I was wrong about Biden. I was just basing it what I saw of him in the 9-11 commission. He didn't seem like much of a hawk, then, but I haven't researched him that much.

[Othniel]

Yep, he's a Mormon. He recently crakced a joke relating to that at a roast or something to that effect. "As a Mormon, I believe marriage is between a man and a woman . . . and a woman and a woman and a woman."

BTW, what's the SLOCC? And what was he doing with his residence? I don't really know much about him.
SLCOC-Salt Lake City Olympic Comittee. He's the one who was chair and organised it. Pracitally lived here during the olympics, and we were all confused when it came to if he could even run for govner because he had lived here for more than three months. I believe he was claiming to live in multiple states so he'd pay less property taxes....

[csa945]

Anyway, I think Abdul is absolutely right: Rudy and Arnold are just token moderates – the bulk of the party is pretty blatantly controlled by neo-cons, the religious right/pro-lifers, business interests, etc.

I don't know. I'm just looking at who the big-name speakers were at the conventions. Zell Miller was the most (and aside from the president, the only) big-name conservative speaker at the RNC, and he wasn't even a Republican.

Meanwhile the Dems had Ted Kennedy and Ron Reagan speaking. That would be like Jerry Faldwell and Ann Coulter speaking at the RNC (or maybe Rick Santorum). Even though there was a big "moral values" vote in 2004, the most prominent Republicans who did most of the campaigning for Bush were moderate to liberal while the most prominent Democrats who campaigned for Kerry were liberal to liberaler.

[Raymann]

All these excptions to the rule just prove the point I made earlier, the parties will run whoever they think can win.

True anyone can run but without party support they don't have a chance. It isn't just a considence that the nominee at a convention always wins, the sole nominee already has the support of the party long before hand.

Whatever you say about Rice the fact is, barring anything to change the situiation in the next few years, if she wanted she can run an effective campaign for President. Her only real problem is having the first few primaries in the North and Midwest where other canidates might get local support. Unless Tom DeLay runs, she has the South locked down.

The fact that she has never run for an office doesn't change the situiation. She is an experienced politician who is an expert on defence and international relations, I don't know of any other canidate who can beat her creditionals on that.

Personally, I've found her to be very charasmatic. True she isn't the best at giving speeches but neither is Bush. She is very intelligent and tells it exactly like it is, she doesn't beat around the Bush like Clinton does.

For me, this is why Clinton won't get elected:

San Francisco June 28, 2004
Barbara Boxer fundraiser

"Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you...We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."
Hillary Rodham Clinton

[Farnham]

McCain is actually pro-life. He’s said that he thinks abortion should be banned outside of rape, incest, or when the mother’s life is threatened (I’m basing that on the New York Times and Boston Globe).



Yes. McCain's voting record is more anti-abortion than some of his rhetoric. He's also quite pro-gun, befitting a Senator from the West. He's a bit of a media whore, but he's also a conservative, even though the Bush haters sometimes seem to view him as a closet liberal.
I don't know if Rice is charismatic or not. But she can't be worse than Frist. That man makes a mortician sound uplifting.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Well, Giuliani is (or at least was near the end of the 2004 election) one of the 4 most popular political figures(I believe overall, but it may have just been GOP) in the country, along with Schwarzenegger, McCain, and Laura Bush. He's also usually come out very high on pre-Republican primary polls I've seen (the highest, IIRC).

Okay, maybe I was wrong about Biden. I was just basing it what I saw of him in the 9-11 commission. He didn't seem like much of a hawk, then, but I haven't researched him that much.

This is the inanity of the political process and the total moral bankruptcy of partisans. You ASSUMED Biden was a leftist because he was pissed off that we had been torturing Iraqis thus endangering HIS SON who was SERVING IN IRAQ? Have you actually ever read anything about his views?

Giuliani is high in polls because of 9-11 and because people don't know anything about him. If he runs, he will be demolished. This is a man who paraded around his mistress in public and let his wife know he was leaving her in a press conference. Scratch one political candidate. And do you REALLY think people are going to vote for a New Yorker?

Schwartzenegger is constitutionally barred from being president, so his popularity is irrelevant, and in any case, the people to whom he's regularly exposed, Californians, are getting AWFULLY sick of his stupid movie lines.

[Othniel]

And nobody even considers the west *sigh*...What about Mike Leviett?

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I don't know. I'm just looking at who the big-name speakers were at the conventions. Zell Miller was the most (and aside from the president, the only) big-name conservative speaker at the RNC, and he wasn't even a Republican.

Meanwhile the Dems had Ted Kennedy and Ron Reagan speaking. That would be like Jerry Faldwell and Ann Coulter speaking at the RNC (or maybe Rick Santorum). Even though there was a big "moral values" vote in 2004, the most prominent Republicans who did most of the campaigning for Bush were moderate to liberal while the most prominent Democrats who campaigned for Kerry were liberal to liberaler.

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. Just because the GOP calls someone extremely liberal doesn't make it true.

[Othniel]

Harry Ried against a republician govner from somewhere west of Nebraska.

[eschaton]

And nobody even considers the west *sigh*...What about Mike Leviett?

Brian Schweitzer, depending upon how his governorship goes in Montana, will probably make a great candidate. A real, honest to god rancher (unlike Bush, who is *afraid of horses*) who makes no apologies about being a regular guy and managed to get elected in a state that overwhelmingly went Bush. I think 2008 might be a bit too early for him (2012 would be better), but he looks to be well positioned so far.

[DominusNovus]

You know, when I looked at that guy's picture, he just looked like a democrat. I can't explain it, he just did.

[Hapsburg]

i could see Rice winning. Here's a thought: hire some FBI dudes to pull of an assassination of the other cantidate, but make it into an "Islamic Fundamentalist/Terrorist conspiracy" thing. It'd work.
'course, Condi's not much for assassinations and dirty methods, now is she?
i am, however...

[csa945]

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. Just because the GOP calls someone extremely liberal doesn't make it true.

You're the one w/o a clue. You can't differentiate between campaign rhetoric and exit polls, and what is actually being done. Just because during the campaign, President Bush talked about a federal gay marriage amendment and 22% (highest concensus) of voters listed "moral values" (aka religion) as their biggest issue doesn't mean that the RNC is run by religious zealots. If it were, then the strongest push would be to get the gay marriage amendment passed and Roe v. Wade overturned. Instead, the biggest push is for Social Security and bankruptcy reform (sounds more like Wall Street).

Just because you say someone isn't liberal most certainly doesn't make it so. You have quite a warped perception of reality if you think that Ted Kennedy and Ron Reagan are moderates. I'm not basing the "liberal" label on GOP rhetoric, but rather on independent, non-partisan analysis in the National Journal. Kerry was the #1 liberal in the Senate for 2003, while he was about 11th overall. Ted Kennedy was 5th-most liberal.

Now, would you like to provide some evidence of your own, or at least respond to mine, or would you like to just continue to call me stupid for making objective analysis?

[csa945]

You ASSUMED Biden was a leftist because he was pissed off that we had been torturing Iraqis thus endangering HIS SON who was SERVING IN IRAQ?

You're right. I should have just assumed he was stupid and out of touch with reality if he thinks that terrorists will start to respect international conventions if we make sure sergeants and privates in the US Army don't beat up prisoners.

Are you aware of the insanely large leap of logic you're taking in that sentence?

[csa945]

I just checked out Biden's voting record and rankings by various interest groups. (http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Joe_Biden.htm)

He is ranked as a moderate liberal, right on the line of the ruberic. Biden is as liberal as Cheney (http://www.issues2000.org/Dick_Cheney.htm) is conservative.

I'm looking through the Senate on that website. I've been able to find a few hard-core liberals (Boxer, Kennedy, Durbin), but only a couple of "hard-core conservatives" -- Lott (who's been disgraced), and Inhofe, who is not at all prominent. Granted, I didn't look at all of them.

[eschaton]

Biden is a prominant member of the DLC. He's dead set against the Dean chairmanship. He recently said ""No goddam chairman's ever made a difference in the history of the Democratic Party" in reference to Dean, so that should show you how much he likes his sort. He's also part of a group of Democrats (who includes Kerry) that is trying to come up with some half-assed defense for pre-emptive war, and thinks for some reason the Dems lost because they were too soft on defense. Oh, and he's extremely pro-business, one of the Dems who defected and let the horrible bankruptcy bill pass.

That said, as national politicans go, I suppose you could consider him on 'the left'. However, he is very much in the mainstream of the Democratic party, not a standard bearer of the left. The left of the dems are people like Feingold, Kusinich, Barrak Obama. Howard Dean isn't a leftist either, though he is part of the contingent who think the Democrats should distinguish themselves by setting the agenda, instead of being spinless cowards like many in the senate (including Kerry, Biden, etc) often have been.

Those vote sites are almost always not a good show of the political beliefs of an individual, as many things, either far to the left or right, never get voted on, and either party often forces votes on members. Look at how quickly the voting record of someone can change when they switch parties and you will see what I mean. It basically just measures how loyal someone is to their party line. The party line of the Dems is left of center on social issues, right of center on economic issues, so it's fairly easy to tow the line on the votes that come to a head.

[csa945]

Okay. As I said before, I was wrong about Biden; he is not a hard-core liberal.

My earlier assertion still stands, however, that with Dean as the chair, a moderate would have little hope of defeating Hillary in the 2008 primaries.

[eschaton]

Well, yes, but Dean and the Clintons have a long standing rivalry as well, since Clinton is from the Kerry/Lieberman/Biden side of the party (either Clinton, take your pick). Dean really can't support anyone as head of the DNC, but if he could, I would bet he would endorse someone like Feingold.

[csa945]

Oh, I know how well (or poorly) the Clinton-Clark wing of the party gets along with the Dean-Gore wing (I put the split during the 2004 election when Gore backed Dean and the Clintons less-than-nominally supported Clark). But Hillary is the only candidate with the ability to overcome the Deaniac leadership.