modern Nazi tank design

[Dan Reilly The Great]

well this is somehwat inspired by the uniform thread, but anyways, had the Nazi's survived WWII and on to today, what would their tanks be like? would they use a different version of the Leopard 2? or perhaps something along the lines of a beefed up and modernized Tiger or panther?

[Blue Max]

Nazi Germany today would be as far or further behind the West than the Soviet Union. They had made the brilliant decision to indoctrinate their children instead of educating them, and by 2009 they'd be very, very screwed. In addition, they would not have the powerful intelligence agencies that the Soviet Union had, so they will not be as able to steal US technologies.

Think 1980s model designs, with primitive microcomputers and low gas efficiency.

[wormyguy]

If they continued to follow the Hitler school of tank design, they would probably be few in number, but larger than other countries, and with better general quality.

One can tell from the Soviet Union or modern day China that indoctrination of children =/= bad design of weapons. I don't fall into the camp of "Nazi indoctrination would make everyone stupid," just having rather odd views of history. Naziism would probably encourage the smartest intellectuals to enter the field of designing weaponry.

[aktarian]

well this is somehwat inspired by the uniform thread, but anyways, had the Nazi's survived WWII and on to today, what would their tanks be like? would they use a different version of the Leopard 2? or perhaps something along the lines of a beefed up and modernized Tiger or panther?

depends on POD. Tiger was being designed and nearing production in 1941. However encounter with T-34 would show the value of sloped armor so Panter-like tank would come along anyway. But their later designs would be influenced by their enemy, most likely US. It's a big question how Us tank development would go. If there is no US involvement in ETO/MTO it would depend on what they thought they learned from fighting. M-4 would likely come into being but after that it's hard to say. WW2, specially E front stimulated R&D to unbeliavable levels, something not seen ever again. If Germany is able to win decisevly by 1942 then Panther comes along and next years it's just upgrades. Gun stays the same, changes are to powerplant and likely ammo. If US starts supplying soviet guerillas with hand-held AT weapons then stand-off armor rolls along, maybe prompting development of ERA-like add-ons.

[crackersncheese]

A lot of it depends on what happens in between. For instance, if there are no major military actions, then supertanks might not be "proved wrong", and we could see truly mammoth vehicles that are essentially mobile fortresses. On the other hand, if the Reich continues to receive combat experience, then tanks will develop more or less OTL. Think the Leopard 2, though possibly a little bit more low-tech.

[aktarian]

A lot of it depends on what happens in between. For instance, if there are no major military actions, then supertanks might not be "proved wrong", and we could see truly mammoth vehicles that are essentially mobile fortresses. On the other hand, if the Reich continues to receive combat experience, then tanks will develop more or less OTL. Think the Leopard 2, though possibly a little bit more low-tech.

OTOH supertanks might not be seen as neccessary. If Germans are faced only with Matilda, KV series and T-34 then Tiger and Panther would be seen as sufficient. With likely improvements in gun and ammo, of course, but no need to go huge over it.

[crackersncheese]

OTOH supertanks might not be seen as neccessary. If Germans are faced only with Matilda, KV series and T-34 then Tiger and Panther would be seen as sufficient. With likely improvements in gun and ammo, of course, but no need to go huge over it.

In any perfectly rational army, sure. But these are the Nazis; going over the top is their specialty. Unless it is conclusively shown that supertanks are useless in battle, they'll build them for their egos.

[aktarian]

In any perfectly rational army, sure. But these are the Nazis; going over the top is their specialty. Unless it is conclusively shown that supertanks are useless in battle, they'll build them for their egos.

but if there is no need for them so nobody thinks about designing them? Remember, until 1942-43 their tank designs are quite rational, even smaller and lighter than their enemies'.

[crackersncheese]

but if there is no need for them so nobody thinks about designing them? Remember, until 1942-43 their tank designs are quite rational, even smaller and lighter than their enemies'.

That is true, their designs were quite rational. But remember, the Nazis were all about grand: "Germania" was supposed to be filled with monuments, their empire was supposed to be filled with massive things. Why not their tanks, while they're at it? Never mind the fact that they move at five miles an hour, what better thing to parade down huge boulevards than huge tanks?

[Dan Reilly The Great]

so perhaps we could see a hybrid kind of idea, with most front line tanks being more practical, like modernized tigers & panthers or some version of the leopard combined with a handful of display pieces like the maus and ratte to be used pretty much in parades and photo ops.

[Theodoric]

I'd expect something much like an upgunned Merkava tank; something that can take a pounding and distribute it as well, but sacrificing speed.

[Bosemacher]

Leopard II A6. The only way NAZI Germany could have survived is with a 1942 victory against the USSR and no DOW against the USA. By victory I mean something similar to Brest-Litovsk. This would require the early death of Hitler.

[aktarian]

That is true, their designs were quite rational. But remember, the Nazis were all about grand: "Germania" was supposed to be filled with monuments, their empire was supposed to be filled with massive things. Why not their tanks, while they're at it? Never mind the fact that they move at five miles an hour, what better thing to parade down huge boulevards than huge tanks?

but again, if there is no need then would they be designed? Even the bigest tank designed before the war (Tiger) wasn't that huge.

I'd expect something much like an upgunned Merkava tank; something that can take a pounding and distribute it as well, but sacrificing speed.


OT: Merkava as slow bunker is a myth with little basis in reality and that basis has been removed. It also had little to do with huge ammounts of armor but a lot to do with weak engine on Merk I.

[Theodoric]

OT: Merkava as slow bunker is a myth with little basis in reality and that basis has been removed. It also had little to do with huge ammounts of armor but a lot to do with weak engine on Merk I.
Well, myth busted, I guess.

[Sachyriel]

If I say two turrets per tank, making them larger and 'better' than other tanks, you think that would be reasonable? I mean, it would be an excuse (in the designers mind) to make them really, really large. Anyways, this photo is of a Mammoth Tank, just to give you something pretty to look at. Perhaps we'd see something like this if the Nazis survived.

http://tiberiandawn.com/pr/Blog_08/MammothTankDesertCamo.png

[Chengar Qordath]

This is probably the result of spending too much time playing Dawn of War 2, but I could totally see the Nazis going for designs similar to those of the Imperium. After, if it's not ridiculously massive, equipped with at least three different guns, and covered with skulls and eagles it's not a real tank.

[Sachyriel]

This is probably the result of spending too much time playing Dawn of War 2, but I could totally see the Nazis going for designs similar to those of the Imperium. After, if it's not ridiculously massive, equipped with at least three different guns, and covered with skulls and eagles it's not a real tank.

Tanks today have three types of offencive weaponry... Cannon, Machine Gun and Grenade Launchers.

[aktarian]

Tanks today have three types of offencive weaponry... Cannon, Machine Gun and Grenade Launchers.

and missiles

[Stonewall's Lightning]

It all depends on what has happend in this time line, who is in charge of the Reich and all that. Who is at the head of armaments production, what type of territorial gains have the Nazi's been able to gain? Is there peace with the West, on going war with the Soviets?

I would guess it would be a tank that would be over-engineered, like a Tiger III or IV. With a real big gun, 120 mm, heavy armor, possibly reactive, problem prone and inefficient diesiel engine. Maybe a decent radio communications system. But it will have mechanical problems. Primative radar, infrared, etc.. I am thinking something along the lines technologically speaking of a T-72 if they are lucky.. Forget about a Challenger, M1A1, Leopard 2.

But it depends on what has happend in the reich, may they have signed a treaty with the West, and have some compotent leadership, but then again it probably would not be the reich.

[Sachyriel]

and missiles

Well, I meant on an individual tank. The Leopard two has a cannon, machine gun and "smoke" grenade launchers. I...I don't know a tank that could fit all those and missiles.

[Theodoric]

Well, I meant on an individual tank. The Leopard two has a cannon, machine gun and "smoke" grenade launchers. I...I don't know a tank that could fit all those and missiles.
IIRC, bore-launched missiles (or rockets, really) are in existence and in use.