France and Germany exchange fates

[Hermanubis]

What if, during the middle ages the Holy Roman Empire stayed a cohesive political state and France splintered into hundreds of smaller entities? What might be the long-term consequences to the rest of Europe (and the World)?

[Nicole]

Well, for one thing, assuming England still wants to control France, it may have an easier time of it.

[Midgard]

Much would depend on what form centralized Germany would take. If it would end up being what France became in OTL, the absolute monarchy with direct rule from the capital, it would probably end up being a much bigger player in the eventual colonial scene, but other than that, likely to repeat much of France's fate.

On the other hand, if German Empire ends up being a confederacy with the Emperor's rule based on preserving the laws and social systems of the member states - not to the extent of OTL where the member states of HRE were practically independent, but more along the lines of what eventually developed in the early US, while the states kept some of their identities and laws, they were all subject in theory as well as in practice to teh central government... this leads to some very interesting possibilities. With this, a federal government styled system could have developed much sooner, and Germany, not England, would have been looked at as the bastion of relative freedom for the time.

Moreover, a centralized Holy Roman Empire could possibly hold on to Northern Italy, which has been a target of its ambitions for centuries, thus possibly becoming a Roman Empire in more than a name. With this in mind, the papal power could be severely diminished throughout the centuries if there is constant Imperial presense in Italy - thus Protestantism could be severely weakened, or could even never emerge. In addition to that, such HRE could be a much earlier unifier of large portions of Europe due to their control of the Pope - or, alternatively, it could lead to the Pope becoming a relatively symbolic figure, somewhat like the Patriarch of Constantinople, who has only spiritual, but no temporal authority. This could lead to major changes in the nature of Catholicism, and organized Christianity in general.

[Hendryk]

What would the POD be? I guess it would have to be around the time of the Treaty of Verdun.

[Hermanubis]

I’d really like to know what an early German colonial Empire would look like…

[aktarian]

I’d really like to know what an early German colonial Empire would look like…

I think they would expand east and maybe north, not oversees.

[Faeelin]

I think they would expand east and maybe north, not oversees.

Why not? It would include Holland, Flanders, and the Hanseatic cities, which could certanily provide a bases for a great naval power.

In any case, I think the POD for this could be as late as the 15th century. Say, France collapses in the HYW, but England can't subdue it all. Meanwhile, the Germans, worried about the Burgundian and Ottoman threats, unite in a federal state.

[aktarian]

Why not? It would include Holland, Flanders, and the Hanseatic cities, which could certanily provide a bases for a great naval power.

More space, less opposition, less effeort needed (simply walk there instead of having to ship stuff over the sea.

[zoomar]

If this united Germany was essentially the size of the original HRE, it would have been more ethnically and linguistically diverse than france, perhaps arguing against an empire as tightly centralized as Bourbon France became.

In the 16th-19th centuries I also suspect it would have seen itself as a continental empire more equivalent to the Russian that an overseas one such as Spain or England. Expansion would be more likely directed into the Balkans and possibly Scandinavian area, rather than west where conflicts with Britain and Spain might arise

[Othniel]

I wonder how Normandy would do....

[Norman]

What if, during the middle ages the Holy Roman Empire stayed a cohesive political state and France splintered into hundreds of smaller entities? What might be the long-term consequences to the rest of Europe (and the World)?
Exactly when do you see this process beginning? If it is about before 1066 might William of Normandy determine to expand his influence into France?

[Hapsburg]

maybe when it all began: 962 AD, the coronation of Otto I. If he makes the decision to make the H.R.E a hereditary monarchy, and tie the Germanic princes together with nationalism (We are the new Rome, a German Rome!), it may be possible to have The Empire strong from the beginning, and not shattered amongst warring dukes and et cetera.

[Hermanubis]

Ah, I was thinking later then that, maybe 13th century…

[Hapsburg]

Hit the problem at it's source, and it will be even stronger. Either that, or during Barbarossa's tenure as Sacrum Romanorum Imperator, he unites the dukes during the 3rd Crusade, and he doesnt die on the march in anatolia. Then, he will be alive long enough to transform medieval germany into a strong state.
i like the Otto I one better though. start from the beginning, and it goes by much faster.

[Tyr]

A united Germany would keep on expanding its borders east as it did throughout its history overwhelming even a united Poland. It would not go abroad for some time.
The POD would have to be pretty early in France so you don't make the kings of England the rightful kings of France. I'd guess you'd need to go right back to the frankish empire and have different things work out there.

[Othniel]

Maybe it would result in a non-Norman England...Completely Anglo-Saxon. Later it could be unitied under a large Dutch-Dane-German complex. The aspirations to elimate the unstable Gaelic threat. You'd end up with the northern portion of the Continet under German control, and Southern France resealmbing Italy and Spain at the time.

[Hapsburg]

Makes sense. Then, Russia becomes...what? thier "third rome" thing will be shot, as Medieval GErmany is the "Holy Roman Empire". After constantinople falls, which will happen sooner or later, Vienna or somesuch will become the "Third Rome", not moscow. Russia just becomes another land torn by infighting and civil war. No Tsars. No Emperor.
Only...
Deutschland...

[Othniel]

I thought it would be based in Hamburg, or Aachen.

[Hapsburg]

Maybe Aachen at first (Ottonians, Salians, Hohenstaufens), but later on, it becomes Vienna (Habsburgs, Habsburg-Lorraine), or earlier Nuremburg (Wittelsbach), or maybe Dresden (Wettin). I like the idea that the capitol changes with each dynasty (say, after a dynasty dies out, a new one is elected, but it stays hereditary). It should end with Vienna and the Habsburg dynasty, though. Make at least the ruling dynasties the same as OTL, so there's less confusion as to "who's in power now?!!"
But, of course, Aachen will be it for a good 300 years.

[Othniel]

I don't think many new dynasties will come into power. The Haspburgs may not get the chance. maybe a Saxon....

[Faeelin]

I thought it would be based in Hamburg, or Aachen.

Aachen is certainly possible, as it was Charlemagne's capital. But Nuremberg is also on key trades route and is pretty much in the middle of the Empire.

[Faeelin]

More space, less opposition, less effeort needed (simply walk there instead of having to ship stuff over the sea.
Less opposition subduing the Prussians than in defeating some new world tribes?

I don't think so.
Why couldn't Germany do both, as France and Spain (and arguably Britain) did?

[Hapsburg]

that was OTTO was! Ottonian Saxons.
maybe have the ottonians "die out" around 1260, and maybe the hohenstaufens take power, but they die out around 1530, then the Habichtburgs(or Habsburgs) come to power, but fall from power around 1740, amidst succesion disputes of Maria Theresa. Then, a loose branch of the Ottonians come to power again, and rule the HRE until its collapse in....whenever.

[Faeelin]

A united Germany would keep on expanding its borders east as it did throughout its history overwhelming even a united Poland. It would not go abroad for some time.
The POD would have to be pretty early in France so you don't make the kings of England the rightful kings of France. I'd guess you'd need to go right back to the frankish empire and have different things work out there.
I don't think the English would simply become kings of France; they still lack the financial base, and the Holy Roman Empire won't allow it.

I'm also not convinced that the HRE will relentlessly expand eastward. I mean, look how successful France was.

I could certainly see the dynasties of Poland, Hungary, and maybe even Russia speaking German, of course.

[Faeelin]

I don't think many new dynasties will come into power. The Haspburgs may not get the chance. maybe a Saxon....

England had plenty of dynasties: Hanoverians, Tudors, Orange, Plantagenets... the list goes on.

[Othniel]

Fine, I don't see the same old dynasties comeing into play...or I could argue for no dynastises coming into play as what happened to the Romans....

[aktarian]

Less opposition subduing the Prussians than in defeating some new world tribes?

I don't think so.
Why couldn't Germany do both, as France and Spain (and arguably Britain) did?

Well, you ahve to transport your troops/colonists, built up a navy, then supply them. If youa re fighting just across the border it becomes much easier.

But I guess it largely depends on which time period we are talking about.

[Nicole]

Fine, I don't see the same old dynasties comeing into play...or I could argue for no dynastises coming into play as what happened to the Romans....
Well, I still see the Habsburgs gaining some power, but perhaps not as much without the HREship or Austria.. Perhaps the largest extent of their domains would be around Modern Switzerland?

[Hapsburg]

makes sense. The Habsburg's original castle and holdings were in Switzerland. Thye could become leaders of the seceding "Grand Duchy of Switzerland", but get elected Emperor somehwhere waaaaaaaaaaay down the line after ruling Switzerland for many many MANY decades.

[Nicole]

makes sense. The Habsburg's original castle and holdings were in Switzerland. Thye could become leaders of the seceding "Grand Duchy of Switzerland", but get elected Emperor somehwhere waaaaaaaaaaay down the line after ruling Switzerland for many many MANY decades.
There wouldn't be a "Grand Duchy of Switzerland". A Habsburg Switzerland would be called most likely "County of Habsburg", which was also the county that formed the center of the early Habsburg realm... Though I suppose it could get promoted from a county, the name switzerland arising seems unlikely.

[Hapsburg]

you know what i mean. same place, same family, same beer.
it all gets in the same gene pool or toilet, depending on how you view life.

[Hermanubis]

Thanks for all the comments and ideas, guys.

[Hermanubis]

Gee, you can still add anything you want, you know :p


*Also, 300 post! :D

[Othniel]

Well type up what it would look like by 2005, and I think you would be able to present it Gatescape. This would be a great plane to play in....

[Hermanubis]

Well type up what it would look like by 2005, and I think you would be able to present it Gatescape. This would be a great plane to play in....
…. :confused: Is this post in the wrong thread :confused: ?

[Hapsburg]

yeah...who TF is gatescape...
lol...:eek:

[Hermanubis]

yeah...who TF is gatescape...
lol...:eek:
I figure he most be telling me to use this on the shared worlds forum for something, but I can’t be sure.

[Hapsburg]

hmm. meh,
what about colonial ideas?
i think they make sense, eventually.

[Hermanubis]

*Also, 300 post! :D
Ah, so long ago…

I don’t remember this thread going on for as long as it did...

[Filo]

The destiny of Franch would be a Nothman or English conquest; Germany would conquer(And germanize) east europe ingluding Poland and Pehaps Hungary and in more recent time they may have not necessity for an oversea empire