What if the Royal Navy got It's Aircraft Carriers?

[TheDifferenceEngine]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CVA-01

What if the 1960's era Queen Elisabeth class carriers hadn't been canceled?

(And I suppose you could include the 3 canceled Type 82's in with them.)

I'm thinking the Falklands War (if it happens) is going to be a massive curbstomp.

[Astrodragon]

Well, the RN would have effective AEW, as well as longer ranged planes, so I suspect no successful missile attacks.
Apart from that, no huge difference.

[The Dean]

If those ships had been in service I doubt if Argentina would have risked invading the Falklands for any reason.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

What about Modernisation?

The "Undeclared war" with Indonesia?

Sierra Leone?

Iraq? (Episodes 1&2)

[The Dean]

The Invincibles wouldn't have been built, the Harrier would not have proved itself in battle, the US Marines would not have bought it, other navies would not be operating Sea Harrier carriers.

[Andrew Hudson]

As I understand it only one was ordered CVA01 reputedly to be named HMS Furious. However others may well have followed. It may well have been that they would have deterred Argentina from invading the Falkland Islands as they would have carried AWACS and long rangew strike aircraft and would have made an East of Suez policy more sustainable. The Falklands are not East of Suez but an East of Suez policy may have given the message of an active British interest overseas.

On the other hand the cost of the carriers may have lead to their scrapping prematurely say in the 1981 proposed cuts and this may have been seen as a green light by Galtierri

[chris N]

If the CVA01 and its 3 projected sister ships had been built then it is likely that they would have been around until the 1990's. It is more likely that older carriers such as the Hermes would have been retired or sold off.

[TheMann]

Considering that supercarriers in the USN had 35+ year lives, I'd expect those CVAs, assuming they are commissioned in 1969-1970, to last until the new QE class carriers arrive in 2014-2016. Remember how long the Forrestal-class and Midway served. The Type 82s probably may have lasted with the Type 42s.

As for the Falklands, Argentina did not expect the British to get involved at all, so I doubt this makes much difference about the war happening unless Britain decides to try and play more actively in world politics. One thing is for sure however, the Argentines are going to going all-out to stop the carriers, with every Exocet they can get.

On that topic, if Britain DOES decide to play more in the political games, where do they focus their attention? Iran? India? South Africa/Rhodesia?

[TheMann]

If the CVA01 and its 3 projected sister ships had been built then it is likely that they would have been around until the 1990's. It is more likely that older carriers such as the Hermes would have been retired or sold off.

Depending on when they get sold off, I can see Eagle, Ark Royal, Hermes, Albion and Bulwark being sold or scrapped in the early 70s. I can see at least two of those being sold, as Canada and Australia at the time needed replacements for Bonaventure and Melbourne. The Indians would probably buy one too. The Canucks and Aussies would buy the Eagle and Ark Royal, which the Americans would love as it would give the Canucks the ability to back up the US, UK and France in NATO naval operations. Both would probably not however take the air wings - I imagine both would use F-4 Phantoms from the carriers, probably with E-2s once they can get those.

[Alexius]

One question- what would the air wing be in the 1990s-2000s?
I assume the Phantoms/Buccs could stay until the mid to late 80s. After that, it's a toss-up. Possible aircraft that might have operated off CVA-01 include:
SEPECAT Jaguar-M- a navalised Jaguar, one was built but it was cancelled when the British didn't need it (no carriers) and the French decided to go for the cheaper Super Etendard. Might be a bit too early.

F-14s bought from the US as Phantom replacements.

A naval Eurofighter- this would look like a Rafale, but be called a Typhoon and be built by a UK-French-German-Spanish-Italian consortium. One reason why the French pulled out of Eurofighter to build the Rafale was that they wanted carrier capability. If the British want it too, the final aircraft might get it.

I think that by the late 2000s, the CVA-01 airwing would look somewhat like CdeG's: A mixture of Eurofighters and Jags/F-14s, with both of the latter being replaced by the former. US-built AEW (E-3) and COD, British ASW helicopters. A very useful airwing, but necessarily smaller than a Nimitz. Bigger than CdeG, though, so the presence of CVA-01 would be more than just political in any operation.

[Tyr]

Bad to think...Britain is in a even worse economic situation in the 70s and 80s....

[Riain]

The course of the Cold War may have been a bit different if CVA 01 & 02 were built since they would have come into service at about the time of the USN post Vietnam downsize. In 1970 the USN had 15-16 strike carriers in service and the RN had 3, but by 1980 the USN was down to 12 (?) and the RN had none. This was just in time for the Iranian revolution and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, when the US and NATO were at low ebbs. Perhaps if the USN had 12 and the RN had two strike carriers there may have been enough power projection capability available to alter the power balances in SW Asia in the Wests favour.

The other biggie of course is the Falklands, but these carrier may butterfly that war away.

[TheMann]

^ Yeah, that would probably work. I don't know if the British would bother building a naval version of the Jaguar - the F-4s worked real well for them. I do however see Britain going through the back door in 1979-80 (again, world politics involvement) and buying Iran's F-14s for peanuts. That would serve them, if they keep up with the US in upgrades (and they probably would, the RN is not that poor and now only has two carriers instead of 5 or 6) the Tomcats could serve the RN into the 21st Century.

You do have a point about the Eurofighter being navalised. But the Eurofighter project went pretty slowly at first, so I imagine that since the F-4s and Buccs will be obsolete by the early/mid-80s, they'd probably go with Tomcats or F-18s.

I can see the 2008 air wing being:

20 Eurofighter Typhoon T3
18 Northrop Grumman F-14D Tomcat
3 Grumman E-2C Hawkeye (AEW)
4 AugustaWestland Merlin HM1 (ASW)
1 Grumman C-2A Greyhound (COD)
1 Westland Lynx (SAR)

[The Dean]

I see as I said the Harrier would not figure at all in this TL as it would not be involved in the Falklands so still be regarded as no more than a clever gimmick that was irrelevant in combat.

[chris N]

If the aircraft carriers were around they would probably operate a verison of the F/A-18 and that would be replaced by the new F-35. the navalized verision of the aircraft has the ability to act as both an air superiority fighter and an attack aircraft. The marine verision is to replace the harrier.

[Riain]

I could see the RN not being overly impressed with the naval aircraft on offer in the mid 80s; the F14 being too big, expensive and at the time role limited, the A6 too much like the Buccaneer to be worth the bother and the F18 too small, short ranged and under-armed compared to the Phantom and Buccaneer. Perhaps it may delay replacement long enough to get into the Super Hornet at the very start, or even start the programme themselves from the McD Hornet 2000 idea.

[TheMann]

^ Perhaps then Britain leases Super Etendards (:eek:) or upgrades the F-4s like Germany and Israel did.

[Riain]

The TF41 version of the Spey that was in the A7E Corsair produced about 15000lb of thrust, compared to about 11000lb dry in the Spey Phantom and Buccaneer and about 21000 wet in the Phantom. So if the RN can upgrade their Speys to something similar then their Phantoms could have massive power. I wonder if the radar from the Tornado F3 could be fitted to a Phantom or could the OTL Blue Vixen be developed?

[Flocculencio]

What about Modernisation?

The "Undeclared war" with Indonesia?

Sierra Leone?

Iraq? (Episodes 1&2)

To be fair, I don't think it would have made much of a difference in the Indonesian Konfrontasi or the Malayan Emergency. British and Commonwealth pilots sortied from Singapore and bases in Malaysia which could cover the area of the conflict. I suppose a carrier group in the Java Sea would give the RAF the ability to buzz Jakarta but I don't think that was on the cards anyway

[Riain]

Since the first carrier wasn't to be laid down until 1966 they would miss the Konfrontasi by 7 years. These conflicts were 'fought' with the WW2 carriers, I've read that HMS Victorious did a freedom of navigation passage through Indonesia at the height of the Konfrontasi.

[TheMann]

The TF41 version of the Spey that was in the A7E Corsair produced about 15000lb of thrust, compared to about 11000lb dry in the Spey Phantom and Buccaneer and about 21000 wet in the Phantom. So if the RN can upgrade their Speys to something similar then their Phantoms could have massive power. I wonder if the radar from the Tornado F3 could be fitted to a Phantom or could the OTL Blue Vixen be developed?

Yeah, that could work. You are thinking more like the Terminator 2020 F-4s that Turkey and Israel built, I think, and yeah you could do that.

[Riain]

A shitload more power is all that would be needed to turn the Spey Phantom from something of a dud into the envy of the world's Phantom operators. With 15000lb dry thrust it wouldn't be far short or J79 Phantoms in afterburner, and with approx 25000lb wet it would have a thrust ratio of close to or greater than unity. F4E/S wing slats wouldn't go astray either. And all this would still cost less than a new plane.

[chris N]

Yes I believe that the UK would go with a verison of the F-4 that would be an improvement on the F-4K and more likely the Super F-4 that was considered.
Eventually the Royal Navy might have bought a verison of the Grunman F-14. Wth the possibility of an interm buy of the F/A-18 Super Hornet and evenually the F-35.

[TheMann]

A shitload more power is all that would be needed to turn the Spey Phantom from something of a dud into the envy of the world's Phantom operators. With 15000lb dry thrust it wouldn't be far short or J79 Phantoms in afterburner, and with approx 25000lb wet it would have a thrust ratio of close to or greater than unity. F4E/S wing slats wouldn't go astray either. And all this would still cost less than a new plane.

Perhaps the best idea here is going two fold. First try to take weight out of the F-4 where it won't hurt its performance or safety (perhaps replacing steel or aluminum parts with carbon fiber, for example) and using the Pratt and Whitney engines from the F-15 in the F-4.

I still believe that the F-14 would be a good thing to equip these carriers with. The F-4 is a tough SOB, but the F-14 is better to fly and has considerably better performance. And again, after the Islamic Revolution, the Brits could get their hands on the Iranian F-14s for peanuts.