Would anyone be crazy enough to use project pluto?

[thecreeper]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto


I mean think about, it was powered by by a unshielded nuclear reactor, so it would have been leaking massive amounts of radiation, so it could kill thousands, if not millions of people just by flying over it. so would there a chance that this would have been actually used if it was built?

[Trebuchet]

Well, they were planning on using them in cruise missiles fired when they'd already decided to kill pretty much everyone, so it's not quite *that insane*

More insane is the Snark missile, which was actually deployed. While it has no nasty radioactive exhaust, it has a ridiculous 17 mile CEP and is famous for occasionally missing by much more than that - one was intended to impact off Florida and flew off uncontrolled and ended up in remote Brazil. And this was armed with nuclear weapons and part of the Cold War arsenal...!

[Hnau]

A dozen of these could just patrol the Soviet Union for a few days, roaring at Mach 3 at tree-top level with a virtually infinite range, inundating cities and infrastructure with its shockwave and coating population centers with a high amount of radiation, dropping larger nuclear bombs on the larger targets. You could neatly turn the entire Soviet Union into Chernobyl-esque wilderness. How would the Soviets shoot them down, in the 60s? These things were fast!

Or you could use the Plutos as incision weapons... maybe taking out the entire Communist leadership, decapitating military bases and command centers, and leave the rest of Russia in a power vacuum and see what happens. Theoretically. In practice, it would be a difficult kind of warfare.

[Emperor Qianlong]

Wow, that's creepy!!! :eek:

I thought Project Orion was bad, but Project Pluto beats the insanity many times over!!! :eek::eek::eek:

[Admiral Canaris]

I wonder why these weren't in TBO...:D

[mmmeee0]

I would, but as a vehicle to launch into the sun, carrying nuclear waste or something. If it's already radioactive, why not use it for something useful in the area of nuclear applications?

[yourworstnightmare]

Any war waging nation with the resources to do it, might unfortunately do it if they think they'll gain from it.

[Admiral Canaris]

I would, but as a vehicle to launch into the sun, carrying nuclear waste or something. If it's already radioactive, why not use it for something useful in the area of nuclear applications?

Um, it's a ramjet, not a space rocket...

[Inferus]

I could see the Soviets using Project Pluto, environmental threats be damned. Hell, they made the most powerful nukes because the targeting systems of their missiles were horrid. If any technology offered them some sort of advantage they would use it.

[Scifibug]

I believe for every horrible weapon we conceived the Russians had an equivalent program going.
We build small nukes they create a better germ and so on...
I'd like to say we've gotten smarter but more likely our weapons have gotten more sophisticated while smaller, crazier groups work on the cruder things we've all ready made smaller and cheaper.
Better killing with the lowest bidder.

We had the reactor for Pluto in the testing stage when the ballistic missile proved to be the more cost effective solution.

I've always thought this weapon was the kind of thing you'd see in a James Bond movie with the supervillain threatening to launch a brace of these from his deep underground lair.
:p

[mmmeee0]

Um, it's a ramjet, not a space rocket...
So use the ramjets in combo with another engine, like an Ion engine. Ramjets provide thrust in atmosphere and the bigger ones accelerate it into the sun, carrying things like nuclear waste.

[Roberto]

Is it just me, or does the Pluto Ramjet prototype look suspiciously similar to the rocket-train thing from IJ4?

[Michel Van]

lucky for us Robert McNamara kill Pluto bevor they made first flighttest in the pazific
(they test nuclear engine on ground in Nevada until 1964)

Pluto aka SLAM (Supersonic Low Altitude Missile) was defacto a Doomsday Device

fly very low over the ground at Mach 3 with radioactive fallout from his engine,
after droping last H-bomb it fly month over country
give the term "Scorched earth" a new dimension!

so this wapon had be used as second-strike capability.
next to big Pluto design was also a SSLM version for George Washington class submarine

more links
http://xplanes.free.fr/stato/stato-12.html
http://up-ship.com/art/index.htm
and a indeep report on PLUTO in Aerospace Projects Review
http://www.up-ship.com/eAPR/ev2n1.htm

[danielb1]

I wonder why these weren't in TBO...:D

TBO is very bomber-centric as a TL - they pretty much bollixed ICBMs in the 1950s except for space vehicles. Its likely Project Pluto got canned even sooner than OTL, if it ever got proposed. Given that TBO has aircraft flying at near-missile speeds anyway (the SR-71, XF-12, and XB-70 OTL all flew at Mach 3+; in TBO they're all in frontline service), and by the late 1980s they have prototype "turboscramrockets" capable of sending aircraft into space. Nuclear powered missiles don't fit.

There was, OTL, a project to outfit a B-36 with a nuclear reactor, though...:D

[Berra]

What about a minor player? Not Brittain and France, to high pupulation density (almost wrote 'to dense population':D) but maybe China or some mad scientis holding up in a secret lair.

[alt_historian]

TBO is very bomber-centric as a TL - they pretty much bollixed ICBMs in the 1950s except for space vehicles. Its likely Project Pluto got canned even sooner than OTL, if it ever got proposed. Given that TBO has aircraft flying at near-missile speeds anyway (the SR-71, XF-12, and XB-70 OTL all flew at Mach 3+; in TBO they're all in frontline service), and by the late 1980s they have prototype "turboscramrockets" capable of sending aircraft into space. Nuclear powered missiles don't fit.

There was, OTL, a project to outfit a B-36 with a nuclear reactor, though...:D
And "TBO" is what?

Is it just me, or does the Pluto Ramjet prototype look suspiciously similar to the rocket-train thing from IJ4?

from what?

[Roberto]

from what?

Indiana Jones 4.

[alt_historian]

Indiana Jones 4.
That sounds fun! Rocket-Train to the Rescue! :D

[euio]

Wow, that's creepy!!! :eek:

I thought Project Orion was bad, but Project Pluto beats the insanity many times over!!! :eek::eek::eek:
Project Orion- bad?!:mad::mad:

How could you say such a thing?!

[Michel Van]

Project Orion- bad?!:mad::mad:

How could you say such a thing?!

1950s Project Orion (NOT the NASA Orion Capsul) is also A Nuclear Engine spaceship
that use Atomic bombs as fuel !
in early stage of project they wandet groundlaunch from Nevada or Pazific
later desgin used Booster like Saturn V first stage to bring Orion up to 40 Km high
then orion start its nuclear Kraaaboom drive
USAF wandet ORION as orbital Platform for Counterstrike in case of Nuclear War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)


back to PLUTO
there also human decision for Go or No Go for Program
see the Death of british TSR2 Bomber by political decision

Robert McNamara stop PLUTO und USAF ORION
but WI Robert Nixon was 35 US-President and Thomas S. Gates, Jr. as U.S. Secretary of Defense ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_S._Gates

During Gates's tenure, two missile elements -- the ICBM and the submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) -- joined the manned bomber to form a "triad" of strategic nuclear delivery systems. Also during this period, there occurred movement toward greater emphasis on counterforce targeting a potential enemy's military installations and forces. Not only was the United States developing or beginning to deploy a variety of missile systems during this period-Atlas, Titan, Minuteman, and Polaris-but so was the Soviet Union.
from Wiki

and for counterforce targeting is PLUTO perfect killer
in that TL Thomas S. Gates can put the SSLM PLUTO on board of submarine.

[SunilTanna]

1950s Project Orion (NOT the NASA Orion Capsul) is also A Nuclear Engine spaceship
that use Atomic bombs as fuel !
in early stage of project they wandet groundlaunch from Nevada or Pazific
later desgin used Booster like Saturn V first stage to bring Orion up to 40 Km high
then orion start its nuclear Kraaaboom drive
USAF wandet ORION as orbital Platform for Counterstrike in case of Nuclear War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propulsion))


I think virtually everybody on this forum knows what the 50s Project Orion idea was.

Some of us think, that the 50s version was good, and its the 2000s version that is bad.

The 50s version remains the only feasible method with current technology to launch multi-thousand (or even million) ton payloads into space, and the only feasible way for manned exploration of the outer solar system. Perhaps the Japanese will make the space elevator work (but the materials problems are hard), but the space elevator won't take you to Saturn.

The radiation risk is actually quite small. A statistical increase (i.e. not specifically identifiable cases) by a literal handful of cancer cases per Orion launch from Earth. And that's using 50s level technology, relatively dirty bombs, and few precautions. Today, the risk would be much lower with better bombs, better material science (less fallout), and simple precautions, like launching on top of a 2nd pusher plate, instead of from the ground level.

Personally I would consider the risk acceptable even for a few hundred Orion launches per year using 50s technology. The reason is simple, we can then move a lot of dirty processes off Earth once we establish a substantial space presence (and we could do that with far less than few hundred Orions per year - just a handful of Orions might be enough) - for example - solar power from space, heavy metal mining on the moon. The number of people we currently already kill from burning fossil fuels (which also contribute to cancers as well as contributing to other problems like global warming), and putting metals into the environment, etc., dwarf any number of early cancer deaths that would be caused by Orions -- so if Orion was implemented as part of a planned program to replace these dirty process, it would offer a net saving of lives, and allow us to improve the environment.

As for space exploration, Arthur C. Clarke, Werner von Braun, Niels Bohr, as well people connected to the project (like Freeman Dyson and General Thomas S. Power) all thought Orion a good idea.

[Admiral Canaris]

TBO is very bomber-centric as a TL - they pretty much bollixed ICBMs in the 1950s except for space vehicles. Its likely Project Pluto got canned even sooner than OTL, if it ever got proposed. Given that TBO has aircraft flying at near-missile speeds anyway (the SR-71, XF-12, and XB-70 OTL all flew at Mach 3+; in TBO they're all in frontline service), and by the late 1980s they have prototype "turboscramrockets" capable of sending aircraft into space. Nuclear powered missiles don't fit.

There was, OTL, a project to outfit a B-36 with a nuclear reactor, though...:D

I know, but as they had most other cool wank...:D

And "TBO" is what?

A fun but atrociously edited althist with some believability problems (http://www.amazon.com/Big-One-Stuart-Slade/dp/1430304952)

[alt_historian]

I know, but as they had most other cool wank...:D



A fun but atrociously edited althist with some believability problems (http://www.amazon.com/Big-One-Stuart-Slade/dp/1430304952)
Oh, that... I'd heard of it, but I didn't realise it continued into the modern day.

[Michel Van]

There was, OTL, a project to outfit a B-36 with a nuclear reactor, though...

called NB-36H and it flight ! :eek:
the Test was to see how a Nuclear reaktor works in flight 1955-1957
on ground the Reaktor was stored in pool were made Material Radiation test for Aircraft frame
http://www.airbornegrafix.com/HistoricAircraft/ClassicAC/nb36_title.jpg

http://jpcolliat.free.fr/x6/images/x6_17.jpg
note the cockpit hull was from dick lead weight over 15 tons
the pilots din't hear the Engine !

http://jpcolliat.free.fr/x6/images/x6_23.jpg
the Reaktor raise from cooling Pool in to NB-36H for Flight.

the 47 testflight were made from Fort Worth, Texas.
in one of flight the NB-36H almost crash near Dallas do thunderstorm.

so fare is know the sovjet made simlar test in 1960s

[FlyingDutchman]

the cockpit hull was from dick lead weight over 15 tons

Hihi, thats a heavy reproductive organ.
Sorry, I'm very immature.


called NB-36H and it flight ! :eek:
the pilots din't hear the Engine !


IIRC there was a thread about this some time ago and I'll repeat what I said there because you seem to suggest this B-36 was nuclearpowered;

AFAIK and the Wiki supports that, the reactor was active during flight, but not used to power the airplane.
Wiki of the B-36:

This plane, designated the NB-36H, was modified to carry a 1 MW, air-cooled nuclear reactor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor) in the aft bomb bay, with a four ton lead shield between the reactor and the cockpit. The cockpit was encased in lead and rubber, with a 6-inch (15 cm)–thick acrylic glass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylic_glass) windshield. The reactor was operational but did not power the plane; its sole purpose was to investigate the effect of radiation on aircraft systems.


Back on topic;
However usefull, I doubt that post-Tsjernobyl in the West any kind of project Orion/Pluto could be developed.
I just don't see the general public agreeing with that. F.ex look at how much opposition there is against nuclear plants for civilian purposes.

[Admiral Canaris]

Oh, that... I'd heard of it, but I didn't realise it continued into the modern day.

It contunes into the future as well; Stuart Slade has a full timeline at his forum.

[Tony Jones]

The forum appears to be at http://historypoliticsandcurrentaffairs68862.yuku.com/forums/77/t/TBO-History-Factfiles-and-Artwork.html with the timeline at http://historypoliticsandcurrentaffairs68862.yuku.com/topic/4522/t/The-Big-One-Timeline.html.

[SunilTanna]

I started reading the TL, it seems like a quite interesting if unextraordinary alt-WW2, with bomber wank thrown in, then it starts to get a bit more unbelievable what with the same presidents coming up, and so on

Then wow, there's a thirty year gap between 201x and 2040, and finally this Loki character appears out of nowhere. Having never been mentioned before

Then I start looking around and see Demons. Loki is a demon. WTF?

[David Floyd]

It's an althist with a fantasy element thrown in. Taking it for what it's worth, it's actually highly entertaining.

The actual TBO scenario, though, is a reasonable example of why, even if everything else went right for Germany, they couldn't possibly beat the US.

[Admiral Canaris]

Well, except that the scenario's not all that believable, of course. Just the entire premise, if the Germans conquered Britain and Japan didn't attack the US, why the hell are they even in the war? Why the hell do they send millions of troops to die in a freezing Russian hell to prop up a regime that was almost as hated as Hitler's own? I can see that they might build up B-36s to defend themselves, but just how did FDR get a US declaration of war through Congress?

[Strategos' Risk]

This is like asking if anyone's stupid enough to use Project Koschei.

[alt_historian]

It contunes into the future as well; Stuart Slade has a full timeline at his forum.

The forum appears to be at http://historypoliticsandcurrentaffairs68862.yuku.com/forums/77/t/TBO-History-Factfiles-and-Artwork.html with the timeline at http://historypoliticsandcurrentaffairs68862.yuku.com/topic/4522/t/The-Big-One-Timeline.html.
Ah, thianks...
I started reading the TL, it seems like a quite interesting if unextraordinary alt-WW2, with bomber wank thrown in, then it starts to get a bit more unbelievable what with the same presidents coming up, and so on

Then wow, there's a thirty year gap between 201x and 2040, and finally this Loki character appears out of nowhere. Having never been mentioned before

Then I start looking around and see Demons. Loki is a demon. WTF?
Should be interesting getting to that bit... :D