ASBs make you Fleetlord Atvar

[Thande]

The ASBSs are at it again, but this time they transfer you into Fleetlord Atvar from Turtledove's Worldwar books, on the eve of the Race attack on Earth. How would you handle the invasion differently? (You can answer this either as though still trying for the Race's aims, or for your own personal ends with the vast alien army).

Obvious one is to concentrate on one country at a time rather than try to subdue everywhere all at once, and maybe to assist one side in WW2. Probably the Axis, despite the repugnance of their treatment of Jews etc. - the Race would probably find on balance the Allies' combination of emperor-killing and snoutcounting even more repulsive, and the Japanese at least have a sensible form of government.

[Straha]

race's aims: I forge an alliance with the authoritarian states(Nazis, soviets, japanese) because authoritarian states experiance less social change and innovation

my aims: I attempt to get the race's borders as they are by the end of 1945.

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Hmm...knowing what I know, I'd play the monkeys one off against the other.

I'd send ambassadors down to London, Washington DC, and Moscow, and have them offer the following terms:

1. The Race will provide technology to the human powers that will allow them to defeat the Nazis and the Japanese, as well as better their own nations.

2. The Race will take Africa and South America, and will not expand beyond those areas. The rest of the world is left to the three powers.

3. In exchange, the human nations will cease all attempts to develop nuclear weapons and space flight. If such an attempt is discovered, the offending nation will be scrubbed from the surface of the earth, and brought under the control of the Race.

Pour encourager les autres, I'd fire a nuclear warning shot into a desert/on the coast of each power. I'd also have the ambassadors make it perfectly clear that it would be so unfortunate if we had to use these weapons en masse against any of these nations.

Hopefully, the damn stupid rats would see the beautiful logic of my arguement and graciously sign over those continents.

[Kadyet]

I'd ignore the writings of anyone named Turtledove and remain confident that a 75mm high explosive shell cannot penetrate several inches of Chobham armor (HEAT not being developed until after the landings). I'd also be confident that my fighter craft could vastly outperform Spitfires.

Large enemy armies (however they may come into existence) will be destroyed using tactical nuclear weapons, and any Stalingrad/Chicago situation will be dealt with by nukes.

[Yossarian]

I would contact the democratic nations and secretly give them all of the race's technology, in exchange for a promise to allow all males and females of the race to become citizens if they so choose, and the promise to help out the poorer areas of the world, while I concentrating on beating germany and japan, as well as stopping their atrocities. With my troops occupying all of the land that germany and japan controlled, I would still have a lot of territory, which I would attempt to improve and democratize. After the inevitable rebellion by the rest of the race at my foolish leadership, I would flee to the US, which at this point would be starting to bring the race's technology into production.

I would probably be branded a traitor by the race, but I would have a nice, comfortable life in the US, and would have really helped out humanity.

[Dave Howery]

I'd put everyone back into deep freeze and head the ships back to Home so that those insufferable humans don't steal our tech and come blundering to Home 100 years later...

[Matt]

Now it's my mind in Atvar's body eh?

Hmmm good question. I think I'll take the nice guy approach. I'll give tech to the Western Allies, on the condition they don't give it to the Soviets. Let the human's fight amongst there selves. (confident in my 21st century knowledge that the Allies well win).

Now I'll need territory won't I? Since the Race likes warm, dry climates I'll seize (forcibly if need be) Interior Australia, North Africa, southern South America(say... Chile and Argentia), Mexico, and the Middle East. Then I'll sit back and make put myself into the strongest possible position.

[Matt]

Kadyet:
Re: Chobham armor

The way Turtledove described the landcruisers, I don't think they have Chobham. I think the tanks were more comperable to something like a early model T72. Also the armor my be even thinner then that. Remember the Race are smaller then even the smallest adult human. That makes for a smaller tank, since you don't need as much space for the crew. Smaller tank normally means smaller engine, which in turn means less armor. They could even be light tanks for 1980s standard, since they never expected serious opposition.

The Race's technolgy is advanced compared to ours in many ways. However, in miltech, I have little doubt that the United States Armed Forces of the 80s would have no trouble dealing with the Race.

HEAT was first deployed with the M1A1 Bazooka. That entered service in late 1942. Since the Race landed in the middle of that year, it's not to much of a stretch to see it introduced to fighting forces.

[Thande]

The only reference I can find is Jaeger's thoughts: "the Lizard panzer's frontal armour - if it was true what he had heard, it wasn't just steel..." Not sure if that helps.

[Kadyet]

Could swear that there is indeed reference to the armor being a mixture of metal and ceramics (Chobham). As armor is related to "What are they going to whack us with" the size of the Lizards isn't going to hurt the amount of armor.

As for being a light tank: Remember, the Lizards just went off of what they had used until unification, not "oh, little resistance, little tanks." Light tanks haven't been useful for about 50-60 years, so an MBT is the best bet.

Assuming that Jäger was in the newest Panzer III model, his gun (75mm KwK L/24) had a maximum penetration of 41 mm, and that at a 100 meters. The best gun that the Germans had was the 8.8cm Pak 43, which could penetrate over 200mm of armor at that distance.

The real problem with Turtledove's scenario is that the humans are able to produce massive quantities of high quality tanks and other weapons despite the logistical impossiblity of doing so. Most of the world is occuppied by the Race, the US is effectively cut in two, France is occupied by the Race, most of Eastern Europe is occuppied by the Race, yet somehow the Allies/Axis are able to produce enough tanks and planes to halt the Lizards.

The 9th Panzer Division in 1942 had a total of 150 tanks of all kinds (mainly Panzer IIIs). Even using T-72s, a company should be able to halt this division and a battalion totally destroy it, even assuming no air support (which the Lizards had in copious amounts).

[Matt]

Could swear that there is indeed reference to the armor being a mixture of metal and ceramics (Chobham). As armor is related to "What are they going to whack us with" the size of the Lizards isn't going to hurt the amount of armor.

As for being a light tank: Remember, the Lizards just went off of what they had used until unification, not "oh, little resistance, little tanks." Light tanks haven't been useful for about 50-60 years, so an MBT is the best bet.

Assuming that Jäger was in the newest Panzer III model, his gun (75mm KwK L/24) had a maximum penetration of 41 mm, and that at a 100 meters. The best gun that the Germans had was the 8.8cm Pak 43, which could penetrate over 200mm of armor at that distance.

The real problem with Turtledove's scenario is that the humans are able to produce massive quantities of high quality tanks and other weapons despite the logistical impossiblity of doing so. Most of the world is occuppied by the Race, the US is effectively cut in two, France is occupied by the Race, most of Eastern Europe is occuppied by the Race, yet somehow the Allies/Axis are able to produce enough tanks and planes to halt the Lizards.

The 9th Panzer Division in 1942 had a total of 150 tanks of all kinds (mainly Panzer IIIs). Even using T-72s, a company should be able to halt this division and a battalion totally destroy it, even assuming no air support (which the Lizards had in copious amounts).


Point valid about the logistics of supplying any force. As for Jaeger, I think he scored his kill on the landcruiser by striking the underside of it just as it exposed itself by cresting a hill. Tanks are very thinnly armoured there. All luck there. Germany's forces in the USSR were for the most part destroyed. By the second and third books there are mentions about this.

[Thande]

MBarry is correct re how Jaeger killed the Lizard tank. Even at the end of the war human tanks are not capable of penetrating Lizard tanks' front armour, but by 1943 they can punch through the side armour, whereas in 1942 the only way humans could destroy a Lizard tank was a shell through the underside or somekinda oblique tactic like a Molotov cocktail or satchel charge.