Race invades during Korean war.

[Onkel Willie]

Instead of the usual "the Race invade in the present topics" I'd like to start something different. Instead of invading over 66 years later, they invade only nine years later in 1951 when the Korean war was in full swing. Will the outcome be even worse for the Race?

[Thande]

That's quite an interesting one. Unlike most of the 'immediately after WW2" ones, here we do have countries geared up for war, if not to the same extent as in 1942.

Of course the problem is that Atvar might not invade in the first place given that the Race can probably detect the US and Soviets testing atomic weapons.

[Doctor What]

Considering that the Race were essentially fought to a stalement with 1940's Earth, I would imagine that 1950's tech might just be enough to push them back completely. I would imagine that the SU would have little or no reservations in using their nukes on them.

[Thande]

Considering that the Race were essentially fought to a stalement with 1940's Earth, I would imagine that 1950's tech might just be enough to push them back completely. I would imagine that the SU would have little or no reservations in using their nukes on them.

But there is also the point that the countries are less mobilised than they were in 1942 and there is no Nazi Germany. Also many of the people who were around to fight in 1942 will have died in the latter half of WW2.

The early 1950s were a slack time for technological development in some areas (especially in the US, which could have beat the Soviets into space but refused to fund its rocket programme).

There is however the fact that there are lots of trained WW2 veterans around who can either form the cores of home armies or form guerilla resistance.

[Doctor What]

But there is also the point that the countries are less mobilised than they were in 1942 and there is no Nazi Germany. Also many of the people who were around to fight in 1942 will have died in the latter half of WW2.

The early 1950s were a slack time for technological development in some areas (especially in the US, which could have beat the Soviets into space but refused to fund its rocket programme).

There is however the fact that there are lots of trained WW2 veterans around who can either form the cores of home armies or form guerilla resistance.

All true - but there's also the fact that there's a lot more nukes around and, while they're not quite as mobilized as they were in WW2, the stuff they do have can run rings around WW2 stuff.

I would imagine that this would be a shorter war but much, much more bloodier and intense. I can so see Stalin deciding to nuke a few captured cities just on general principles.

[Thande]

All true - but there's also the fact that there's a lot more nukes around and, while they're not quite as mobilized as they were in WW2, the stuff they do have can run rings around WW2 stuff.

Planes yes, not tanks so much I think. The early phase of the Korean War still had Shermans and T-34s in use, after all. (Hence why it's cited when people argue about whether the Soviets would have beat the Allies if they'd have kept going west in 1945).

[Doctor What]

Planes yes, not tanks so much I think. The early phase of the Korean War still had Shermans and T-34s in use, after all. (Hence why it's cited when people argue about whether the Soviets would have beat the Allies if they'd have kept going west in 1945).

Hmmmm...I beginning to think that this will be a more interesting WI than the original books.

A lot depends on how quickly the countries can get their act together.

[mmmeee0]

If the Race invaded, the ARPANET would have been invented alot faster, and we'd be talking about 'What if the Race invaded in WW2?' in the 1980s...

[Onkel Willie]

There were a lot more nukes around. The Americans had several hundreds of them. The USSR had about 25-30 of them in 1951. Britain developed nukes a year later and became the third nuclear power. The Americans might decide to just give them the data they need in case of a Race invasion. And that wasn't all. The Americans detonated their first H-bomb in 1952, only a year after the POD. I wonder how the Race will react to seeing a 10.4 megaton nuclear blast from space.

The Russians will probably speed up their research too. Heck, the Americans might even help in the face of a common enemy. When a second power gets hydrogen bombs, the Race will really have a reason to panick. I wonder if the Russians will build TTL's version of the Tsar Bomba just to scare the crap out of the Race. And instead of scaling it down to 50 megatons they'll let it blow with its full power of a mindboggling 100 megatons. It'll make a nice view for any ships in orbit.

And technology has progressed since WW2. Jet fighters are becoming more common. The British had the Gloster Meteor for several years now. The Americans had the P80 and F-86 Sabre. The Russians had the Mig-15 and the Mig-17. All of them were availabe in quite large numbers. Radar was also used by the worlds important military powers. The first nuclear submarines will be launched soon. Both superpowers are testing ballistic missiles derived from the V2 such as the Scud. As for tanks. If T-34s and Shermans were good enough in the novels then they'll do well enough here too. And there are some new tanks too. The M26 Pershing and the IS series tanks have been in production since 1944/1945 and should be available in large numbers. Both are much more potent than the T-34 and Sherman.

Also the Race wouldn't expect the viciousness of certain people. General Macarthur would nuke the Race on sight once he figures out what they are and what they want. I think the USSR would be the biggest challenge because with around 13 million men it was the largest conventional force of the world at the time. Ad Stalin to the mix and the Race is screwed. He will have no problems with using every weapon to his disposal. He'll use nukes, anthrax, chemical weapons and every man with a gun.

[Doragon]

The races first move would have to be nuking Moscow, D.C. and London. As well as capturing the weapon lockers for the US and SU nukes (not hard to do since they would be able to lob a rock at each locker).

With the sudden lose of world leadership and the elimination of nuclear arms, the race would have a much easier time invading. It would still be a hard fight, but I think it would be much closer then the novels.

[Neroon]

Atvar might very well decide that the invasion is doomed to failure if they try and unleash the entire nuclear arsenal on his disposal to wipe out mankind in order to make sure they can never race past the Race ;) in technology and become a threat.
Then send a message to the Colonial Fleet to abort and head for Home.

[Onkel Willie]

The races first move would have to be nuking Moscow, D.C. and London. As well as capturing the weapon lockers for the US and SU nukes (not hard to do since they would be able to lob a rock at each locker).

With the sudden lose of world leadership and the elimination of nuclear arms, the race would have a much easier time invading. It would still be a hard fight, but I think it would be much closer then the novels.

The Race isn't known for its intelligence. They invaded in 1942 while it was obvious that they couldn't win. They were prepared to fight knights on horses. And I don't think the Race would know were America and Soviet Union keep their nuclear stockpiles. The Soviets and Americans didn't know where the other kept his nukes. Sure, they knew some bases with nukes but not all of them. As for the nuking of capitals. They didn't do that in the novels eventhough that was the most logical course of action since they were unprepared for a war against such a powerful foe. Decapitating Earth's governments would have been my first move.

[Jasen777]

Atvar becomes the Worldfleer when they find out humanity has nukes.

[Admiral Canaris]

The Yashcheritsi are such fucktards that I do wonder if they could even have beaten the mediaeval knights in their time...:rolleyes:

Well, I can see them taking and holding isolated places where the Powers can't easily send major reinforcements (Australia, Africa). Of course, I can also see those locations geting nuked...

And, of course, you still have Skorzeny, the Living Wank of World War II...

[Roberto]

The Race is fucked. Even if the world isn't as mobilized as it was in WW2, it won't take long for either of the Big Two to prepare for war. The Migs will be a nightmare to the Race, not only because they are one of the best jet fighters out there, but because there will be a fucking lot of them. The invasion will be defeated handily, but the world after the failed invasion would be quite interesting...

[alt_historian]

The Race isn't known for its intelligence. They invaded in 1942 while it was obvious that they couldn't win. They were prepared to fight knights on horses.
Yeah, but they brought along tanks, fighter-bombers, helicopters and nukes. As Sam Yeager (I think) says at one point, they came loaded for bear.
And I don't think the Race would know were America and Soviet Union keep their nuclear stockpiles. The Soviets and Americans didn't know where the other kept his nukes. Sure, they knew some bases with nukes but not all of them.
Well, in the novels the Americans realise they have to camouflage their uranium-refining efforts, to the extent of filtering the outflow water... this implies the Race have some sort of orbital radiation-detection gear, as illogical as that seems. Again, loaded for bear.
As for the nuking of capitals. They didn't do that in the novels even though that was the most logical course of action since they were unprepared for a war against such a powerful foe. Decapitating Earth's governments would have been my first move.
Yes they did... not right at the start, admittedly, but Berlin and Washington were both gone inside the first year of war.

[Onkel Willie]

I still think the Race is screwed with the nightmarish job they did at gathering intelligence about Earth.

Yeah, but they brought along tanks, fighter-bombers, helicopters and nukes. As Sam Yeager (I think) says at one point, they came loaded for bear.

And they still lost. Now they invade nine years later. They'll probably be defeated even faster.

Well, in the novels the Americans realise they have to camouflage their uranium-refining efforts, to the extent of filtering the outflow water... this implies the Race have some sort of orbital radiation-detection gear, as illogical as that seems. Again, loaded for bear.

But now we don't have to build nuclear arsenals from scratch. We already have several hundreds of them to begin with. I assume that neither the Americans nor the Soviets were stupid enough to store all of them on one spot. I one of the two figured were the other was keeping his nukes he could destroy the other side's nuclear arsenal with one nuke.

Yes they did... not right at the start, admittedly, but Berlin and Washington were both gone inside the first year of war.

Giving the governments enough time to leave. Why should it be different now? It'll be pretty much the same as in the novels. Atvar decides to continue anyway and gets beaten. After that they start using nukes and such to defeat us. In return we use our nukes against their troops.

I think the Race is screwed.

[Saladan]

Yes they did... not right at the start, admittedly, but Berlin and Washington were both gone inside the first year of war.

And doing that only pissed off their enemies. If they do it around this time then The US will certainly let the nukes fly, and the SU will probably as well. basically the race is fucked in this case. and with the threat of alien attack I can see a major demand for an advancement in (weapons) technology.

[userid]

Your forgetting that its likely that some back yard nut with a radio telescope has been listening to them for the past few years. The lizards have been sending updates for when the crews wake up since they are traveling around .5c that gives them alot of chances to pickup ether stray radio signals between the 3 worlds or from home to the fleet.

With enough time watching the skys the big governments would have pushed for space to meet who ever was on the way.

[Timmy811]

But there is also the point that the countries are less mobilised than they were in 1942 and there is no Nazi Germany. Also many of the people who were around to fight in 1942 will have died in the latter half of WW2.

The early 1950s were a slack time for technological development in some areas (especially in the US, which could have beat the Soviets into space but refused to fund its rocket programme).

There is however the fact that there are lots of trained WW2 veterans around who can either form the cores of home armies or form guerilla resistance.

The US and the USSR are also going to notice a massive Alien invasion fleet going into orbit around the planet and sitting there menacingly for 3 months. Me thinks they my take some slight precautions.

[Riain]

In the books it is the Meteor, Me262, V2, Panther that gets on top of the Race in the day to day fighting, and these aren't around in overwhelming numbers. In Korea there are much better planes and tanks around, and in large enough numbers that the Race will take significant casulaties from day 1 without resort to nukes.

[alt_historian]

The US and the USSR are also going to notice a massive Alien invasion fleet going into orbit around the planet and sitting there menacingly for 3 months. Me thinks they my take some slight precautions.
Yeah, that always puzzled me in the original series... surely someone must have looked through a telescope at those strange lights in the sky in the three months between arrival and landing?

I mean... nobody at all? Oh yeah, everyone was far too busy with the war too look up at them... :rolleyes: