Azores/Iceland Switch

[The Professor]

An alternative on the usual "Azores is Atlantis" idea...
What if the magma plume that forms Iceland comes under the Azores instead? In simple terms, what if *Iceland is the Azores and v.v?

Assuming very minimal butterflies on climate (jet stream etc) and fauna/flora at what point does this difference affect European history? Would the Carthaginians settle? (tho don't believe they made it to the Azores OTL).
Would the Arabs or Europeans get there first?

[oscarzoalaster]

An alternative on the usual "Azores is Atlantis" idea...
What if the magma plume that forms Iceland comes under the Azores instead? In simple terms, what if *Iceland is the Azores and v.v?
Assuming very minimal butterflies on climate (jet stream etc) and fauna/flora at what point does this difference affect European history? Would the Carthaginians settle? (tho don't believe they made it to the Azores OTL). Would the Arabs or Europeans get there first?


The two westernmost Azorean islands (Flores and Corvo) are on the North American plate, which is slowly departing from the plates that Europe and Africa are on. Thus 'Azorland' may either be splitting in two (or three), or that spreading may be a source of continuing volcanic eruptions (which is already the case in Iceland). Very rich soils....

The discovery of the uninhabited Azores apparently came in the early 1400's, and apparently the discovery was by Portuguese. With the butterfly net that you suggest this would probably be the same. However the reaction would not. 'Azorland' would be a very fertile island, and one larger than Portugal (Iceland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland): 103,000 square kilometers, Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal): 92,345). Uninhabited. Fertile.

If Portugal can colonize 'Azorland' it will have doubled its arable land and gained an almost certainly useful naval advantage in the Atlantic. (Maybe the Portuguese would have named it "Maravilhosa Ilha" [Wonderful Island])

Keeping the news quiet, and then uninteresting, for long enough to secure their foothold would be a bit of a challange.

[The Professor]

Maravilhosa...I like the sound of that :cool:

Can see war looming with Spain.

[Tom Veil]

The transplanted Iceland could end up with a much, much larger population than OTL Iceland. If I recall correctly, the reason that Iceland is almost infertile for agriculture has less to do with temperature than with soil quality. In its new location, getting more robust seasons, dust blowing in from Europe and Africa, and better rainfall, transplanted Iceland seems like it should have better soil.

[Sovereign12]

This discovery may mean the Americas are discovered a few decades earlier. Let us say fishing vessels from the west coast of Maravilhosa discover what might be called Grande Bosque (Large Forests) [North America] in 1465. Henry the Explorer is more interested now in this new land (Asia?) than in ports in Africa. Most ships sail for the Bosques, but a small number still explore Africa's coast

More people move to Maravilhosa to farm and also to sell supplies to the ships sailing to the New World. The earlier successes of Portugal brings about a small war with Spain. The Treaty of Windsor kicks in and Portugal and England knock out a good portion of the Spainish fleet. While claiming all of the Bosques, Portugal is not adverse to England claiming small colonies in the new land because of the treaty and the still potent threat of Spain.

Spain is knocked out of the game for a short time in the Bosques, and increases it exploration of Africa's coast.

France eventually gets in the game of exploration sending ships to South Bosque. Small colonies are set up along the coast of what the French would call "les Monts Verts", which would eventually become the nation of Monvert (OTL Brazil analog).

[oscarzoalaster]

This discovery may mean the Americas are discovered a few decades earlier. Let us say fishing vessels from the west coast of Maravilhosa discover what might be called Grande Bosque (Large Forests) [North America] in 1465. Henry the Explorer is more interested now in this new land (Asia?) than in ports in Africa. Most ships sail for the Bosques, but a small number still explore Africa's coast


That sounds quite plausible. I wonder where in the Americas they would most likely end up if they were sailing from Maravilhosa?



More people move to Maravilhosa to farm and also to sell supplies to the ships sailing to the New World. The earlier successes of Portugal brings about a small war with Spain. The Treaty of Windsor kicks in and Portugal and England knock out a good portion of the Spainish fleet. While claiming all of the Bosques, Portugal is not adverse to England claiming small colonies in the new land because of the treaty and the still potent threat of Spain.


That also sounds quite plausible. And if there are English colonies, and Spain has faced a defeat, there will be Dutch merchants and explorers involved. [In fact colonies in Grande Bosque could be part of why England so thoroughly honored the Treaty of Windsor.)



Spain is knocked out of the game for a short time in the Bosques, and increases it exploration of Africa's coast.


With eventual Spanish colonies in Africa, India, and points east? (Hmmmm..... a Spanish/Indian fusion cuisine....)



France eventually gets in the game of exploration sending ships to South Bosque. Small colonies are set up along the coast of what the French would call "les Monts Verts", which would eventually become the nation of Monvert (OTL Brazil analog).


Could well be. (Alternatively, the Portuguese may have brought France into their war with Spain - and maybe into a longer 'keep the Spanish off Portuguese territory' alliance by offering them territory in the Grande Bosque.)

[Sovereign12]

Could well be. (Alternatively, the Portuguese may have brought France into their war with Spain - and maybe into a longer 'keep the Spanish off Portuguese territory' alliance by offering them territory in the Grande Bosque.)

I think just Portugal and England would be enough. The Hundred Years War ended in 1453 OTL, and would most likely be around the same time here. Although it wouldn't be until 1475 when the Treaty of Picquigny was signed. I cannot see England working with France quite yet. If it happened it would be more likely France taking an oppurtunistic attack on Spain's north.

While not in an alliance with Engalnd and Portugal, an attack from France would keep Spain from taking Portugese territory.

An interesting thing is the War of Roses in England. How does an active alliance with Portugal and earlier colonization of the New World affected it?

[oscarzoalaster]

I think just Portugal and England would be enough.


Quite possibly.



The Hundred Years War ended in 1453 OTL, and would most likely be around the same time here. Although it wouldn't be until 1475 when the Treaty of Picquigny was signed. I cannot see England working with France quite yet. If it happened it would be more likely France taking an oppurtunistic attack on Spain's north.


That would certainly be advantageous. And it would not necessitate that England cooperate with France at all. And it would look good for Portugal to win the war really fast.



While not in an alliance with Engalnd and Portugal, an attack from France would keep Spain from taking Portugese territory.


Yup. Portugal might even gain a little territory (really secure mountain passes, and so on).



An interesting thing is the War of Roses in England. How does an active alliance with Portugal and earlier colonization of the New World affected it?


A place for refugees and exiles to go.

[The Professor]

An interesting thing is the War of Roses in England. How does an active alliance with Portugal and earlier colonization of the New World affected it?

My knowledge of this isn't exactly great but it seems as if the House of York would be in better position TTL

[Sovereign12]

My take on the scenario.

The Is Øer (Azores where Iceland was) are still controlled by Denmark. The Islands are warmer than Iceland had been since the warmer Gulf Current is not deflected like it had been when Iceland was here. This leads to a slightly warmer Norwegian coast allowing colonization forth north.

The Portugese first land in the New World on the island of Henriqueterra (Newfoundland) named after Henry the Navigator. From there settlements of people from Portugal and the island of Maravilhosa colonize the continent. Portugal has also set up small sugar plantations on several Arwaqean (Caribbean) Islands.

England has several small tading posts in Grande Bosque and has claimed all of Labrador (OTL Puerto Rico) first discovered for England by Portugese Explorer João Fernandes Lavrador.

After the War with Spain, Portugal added parts of Galicia and Extremadura to the nation. France holds parts of Aragon, the southern half of Italy, and Sardinai.

France has also started to colonize Bosque do Sul to harvest its hardwoods.

[bastian]

This discovery may mean the Americas are discovered a few decades earlier. Let us say fishing vessels from the west coast of Maravilhosa discover what might be called Grande Bosque (Large Forests) [North America] in 1465. Henry the Explorer is more interested now in this new land (Asia?) than in ports in Africa. Most ships sail for the Bosques, but a small number still explore Africa's coast

More people move to Maravilhosa to farm and also to sell supplies to the ships sailing to the New World. The earlier successes of Portugal brings about a small war with Spain. The Treaty of Windsor kicks in and Portugal and England knock out a good portion of the Spainish fleet. While claiming all of the Bosques, Portugal is not adverse to England claiming small colonies in the new land because of the treaty and the still potent threat of Spain.


I think it's an interesting thread. However, I do not see too many reasons for a war between Castile and Portugal. At this time, (I seem to remember) Castilla was embroiled in inheritance conflicts and with the discovery of America, there could have been, more easily, a marriage between Castile and Portugal.A civil war in Castilla is the only thing that could have led Portugal to a war (which is what really happened) in which they tried (I believe) to achieve support from France (not England)

[Xenos]

If you put Iceland where the Azores are then you've got Atlantis! It would probably be colonized by the Phoenicians, since their knowedge of the Atlantic was far superior to that of other civilizations at the time.

[bastian]

If you put Iceland where the Azores are then you've got Atlantis! It would probably be colonized by the Phoenicians, since their knowedge of the Atlantic was far superior to that of other civilizations at the time.
I think that they were not really interested in colonize areas without economic interests so perhaps greeks. Actually I ever see Atlantis as greek nation

[The Professor]

If you put Iceland where the Azores are then you've got Atlantis!

Azores as Atlantis was kind of the idea; I was a bit surprised it had never come up before and wanted it explored by AH.commers much more versed it such things :D

It would probably be colonized by the Phoenicians, since their knowedge of the Atlantic was far superior to that of other civilizations at the time.

Would it though? AFAIK the Phoenicians never discovered the Azores as they are now. Though a more extensive island would no doubt have a large bird population that they could follow. And if they do settle it's a logical place for another Carthage...

[Susano]

I think that they were not really interested in colonize areas without economic interests so perhaps greeks. Actually I ever see Atlantis as greek nation
Theres a guy with twenty elephants outside the doors who wants to speak to you! :p


Would it though? AFAIK the Phoenicians never discovered the Azores as they are now. Though a more extensive island would no doubt have a large bird population that they could follow. And if they do settle it's a logical place for another Carthage...
Youre sure they didnt know of them? I kinda remember having read otehrwise, but Im not sure myself...

[Xenos]

Would it though? AFAIK the Phoenicians never discovered the Azores as they are now. Though a more extensive island would no doubt have a large bird population that they could follow. And if they do settle it's a logical place for another Carthage...

How do you know the Phoenicians never discovered the Azores? The Carthaginians were essentially Phoenicians in exile. And Hanno was known to have sailed at least to West Africa. So it would be possible for this nation of skilled seafarers to have reached the Azores. Unfortunately, there is hardly anything in Punic which survived the fall of Carthage, and the Phoenicains were notoriously secretive about their trade routes (they were known to deliberately try to confuse any foreign ships that attempted to follow theirs). So it is difficult to know the true extend of their travels.
However, what I'm saying is that if any ancient civilisation was going to discover the Azores it would almost certainly be the Phoeniciance/Carthaginians.

[Cockroach]

How do you know the Phoenicians never discovered the Azores?
Of cause we don't know if the Phoenicians; Carthaginians; Romans etc. did/could have discovered the Azores. But there isn't any writing accounts, maps or archaelogical evidence from before circa 1300, so it is safe to assume that there were no substantial long-term settlements any earlier.

Edit: Actually, there is one highly suspect claim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrenaic_coins_of_Corvo) of coins from c.200BC being found in the Azores.

[Xenos]

Of cause we don't know if the Phoenicians; Carthaginians; Romans etc. did/could have discovered the Azores. But there isn't any writing accounts, maps or archaelogical evidence from before circa 1300, so it is safe to assume that there were no substantial long-term settlements any earlier.

Edit: Actually, there is one highly suspect claim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrenaic_coins_of_Corvo) of coins from c.200BC being found in the Azores.

I think that the most likely expanation is a ship which got blown off-course and wrecked in the Azores.