Civilwar - In The Balance

[GBW]

As you might have guessed, this is based partly on Turtledove's Worldwar series but... different.

*****

It is May 30, 1863. Robert E. Lee has defeated Union forces at the Battle of Chancellorsville and is planning to eject Union forces from Virginia and continue north into Pennsylvania. In the west, Ulysses S. Grant is eight days into the siege of Vicksburg, Mississippi in the Union's campaign to capture the entire Mississippi and cut the Confederacy in two. In Europe, Great Britain and France debate recognition of the Confederacy while all of Europe takes notes on industry's effects on warfare.

Then an even greater enemy comes along.

For a couple weeks prior, ports on both sides of the Atlantic notice the sudden lack of ships arriving at their scheduled times and more and more ships seem to go missing. Then, suddenly, ironclad battleships, unlike anything ever seen before, show up along the North American and European coasts and sink all vessels they come across, obliterating the Union blockade of the Confederacy and laying low even the mighty Royal Navy. Shortly thereafter, troops of some unknown nation make landings along the American eastern coast, Newfoundland, southern Ireland, southwestern England, and the French, Spanish and Portugese Atlantic coasts. These soldiers wear broad-rimmed metal helmets and wield astonishing breech-loading rifles and heavier guns that spew bullets at a tremendous rate, cutting down any advance before it gets anywhere near them, as well as artillery barrages that are fired from an unheard of range. Even more astonishing is the appearance of two-decked flying machines that scout out ahead of the enemy advance and, where there are fixed fortifications, rhomboid shaped metal machines that spew noxious smoke and fire more of the rapid guns and smaller cannon.

The Bahamas, Bermuda, the Azores, Iceland, Greenland, the Isle of Wight and the Channel Islands fall immediately. Those few ships that manage to escape the islands to the mainlands shortly ahead of the invasions bring an amazing tale: the lost continent of Atlantis has risen again and, like in the ancient legend, they seek world domination. Though faced with weapons and products of industry fantastically advanced, the nations of Western Europe and a divided America take up the shocking challenge of throwing the Atlanteans back into the sea...

*****

The Atlanteans have the equivalent of 1918 World War One technology, with some exceptions, with their weapons being equivalent to the following: Dreadnought-class battleships; British-style derby helmets; the 7.92 mm Mauser Gewehr 98 rifle, with fitted optical sights for the sniper versions, with bayonet; the British Mark IV tank; the 12kg air-cooled 1914 model Lewis Gun (lighter machine gun); the Vickers Gun (heavier machine gun); the Colt M1911 0.45-inch calibre pistol for officers; German 1915 Albatros B II unarmed reconnaisance aircraft; as well as flamethrowers, grenades, trench mortars and barbed wire.

The Atlanteans have few tanks for the broad frontage they are facing in Europe and North America and use them mostly against fixed fortifications. They also have no poison gas, just to give the Europeans and Americans a chance, as well as no submarines. They have automobiles and trucks of the era to use as transport overland.

So how does Civil War-era America and Europe rise to meet the challenge?

[robertp6165]

As you might have guessed, this is based partly on Turtledove's Worldwar series but... different.

The Atlanteans have the equivalent of 1918 World War One technology, with some exceptions, with their weapons being equivalent to the following: Dreadnought-class battleships; British-style derby helmets; the 7.92 mm Mauser Gewehr 98 rifle, with fitted optical sights for the sniper versions, with bayonet; the British Mark IV tank; the 12kg air-cooled 1914 model Lewis Gun (lighter machine gun); the Vickers Gun (heavier machine gun); the Colt M1911 0.45-inch calibre pistol for officers; German 1915 Albatros B II unarmed reconnaisance aircraft; as well as flamethrowers, grenades, trench mortars and barbed wire.

The Atlanteans have few tanks for the broad frontage they are facing in Europe and North America and use them mostly against fixed fortifications. They also have no poison gas, just to give the Europeans and Americans a chance, as well as no submarines. They have automobiles and trucks of the era to use as transport overland.

So how does Civil War-era America and Europe rise to meet the challenge?

Well, Parrot guns, Brooke guns, Blakely guns, Whitworth guns, and Rodman ordnance rifles will be able to engage the tanks with an excellent chance of success. Even Napoleons could do that, if provided with armor piercing ammo. Some Union troops armed with Henry or Spencer rifles will be able to put up a higher rate of fire than the Atlanteans. But overall, the Civil-War era nations are pretty much screwed. The Atlanteans will control the seas, and their machine guns and magazine rifles will allow their infantry to dominate on land.

[GBW]

I'd think Gatling and Ericsson would gain a lot of interest shortly after the invasion, as well as perhaps the men who developed and built the Hunley. I'd think some of Lee's fixed defenses along with some Gatling guns would do well.

[Diamond]

So what are the effects on weather, ocean currents, etc, etc, with the appearance of a new continent in the middle of the Atlantic? The effects might harm the Atlanteans just as badly as the rest of the world...

And where exactly is Atlantis? How big is it? What's it culture, gov't, etc, like? I want details, man, DETAILS!!!!!! :D

Very cool idea.

[Straha]

the CSA probably attempts to take cuba and mexico in the 1910 by using nuclear weapons...

[Diamond]

the CSA probably attempts to take cuba and mexico in the 1910 by using nuclear weapons...
OK, confederatefly... :D ;)

[Straha]

OK, confederatefly... :D ;)
Heh. In the event that they try taking them I see the CSA getting its ass kicked and losing texas(and getting nuked). The USA is probably laughing and building up a nice nuclear aresenal.

[GBW]

So what are the effects on weather, ocean currents, etc, etc, with the appearance of a new continent in the middle of the Atlantic? The effects might harm the Atlanteans just as badly as the rest of the world...

And where exactly is Atlantis? How big is it? What's it culture, gov't, etc, like? I want details, man, DETAILS!!!!!! :D

Damn you! Now you have me putting actual serious thought into this! :D

Well... maybe I could do some short stories that could fill in the gaps in the Writer's forum. I'm sure any technical mistakes would be promptly found. :)

What d'you think?

[robertp6165]

I'd think Gatling and Ericsson would gain a lot of interest shortly after the invasion, as well as perhaps the men who developed and built the Hunley. I'd think some of Lee's fixed defenses along with some Gatling guns would do well.

The Atlantean fleet will devastate anything Ericsson can put out there. ACW-period metallurgy is simply not capable of producing anything...neither armor plating or guns...that can compete with a WWI Dreadnought. You also have the problem that the Atlanteans are going to own the coastal regions in short order. Where are these things going to be built?

Gatling guns would prove useful, but will they be able to be produced in time? More likely the Atlanteans will over-run the production facilities before any significant number can be produced.

The HUNLEY might prove of some use, as a one-shot type thing. Most likely it will sink just as it did in OTL (it sank three different times, killing three crews, in OTL). It's spar torpedo, which was quite sufficient to sink a wooden steam ship, may or may not sink an Atlantean battleship, provided it can get close enough to use it.

[Admiral Matt]

It really depends on how many Atlanteans there are, I'd say.

One note: Chemical weapons were proposed in the Union during the Civil War. Lincoln refused to use them on the grounds that they wouldn't speed the war up and were inhumane. Now that the Atlanteans are here, though, they might be in for a surprise...

[zoomar]

This is a really interesting concept. Let's just hope Sterling steals it rather than Turtledove.

[Straha]

I see the rest of humanity catching up to them by the 1880's.

[Diamond]

GBW: I'd definitely love to read some fiction set in this TL. Go for it!

One thing that might balance the odds a bit, at first anyway, is the climatological upheaval resulting from the appearance of a whole island continent. Massive storms and tidal waves might take out entire Atlantean fleets, preventing them from immediately annexing the whole world. Geological instabilities may cause earthquakes across Atlantis, wrecking their infrastructure and giving the poor primitive rest of the world some breathing room. Of course this'll ravage the other continents as well, but I'd think Atlantis gets the brunt simply by virtue of it suddenly attempting to mesh with the ATL it now finds itself in.

Another thought: are the Atlanteans even human? Are they some kind of genetic offshoot, a completely separate human-like species, 'odd'-looking humans (albinos, a la Elric of Melnibone frex), or just normal folks with better tech?

[Straha]

Somewhere in the arizona desert, april 8th 1894

"So, what am I out here for" asked president William Jennings Bryan. Her after all was the chief executive of the USA so he couldn't be ferried by Aeroplane or train out to random parts of the countrt for no reason. The uniformed soldier said "Well, Sir you're about to see the reason why. The Atleanteans, confederates and germans won't like it" with a grin on his face. tHe fact that they wouldn't like it meant that whatever it was had to be something that no other nation had. Was it submarines better than what the atlanteans had or some other invention?. The war against the atlanteans from 1861-1864 had created the present world situation with the USA, The Confederacy, the remments of the british empire, imperial germany, russia and germany as the strongest surviving nations. Most of the rest of the world was under atlantean rule.

THe soldiers wheeled out a platform covered in tarp. The soldier looked at the president and said "This, Sir will make the emperor in Krem Quay city sit up and take notice". The tarp was removed and President Bryan saw exactly what would shortly make an impact on global diplomacy. The aeroplane that was uncovered looked like the ones the atlanteans had in shape but it only had a single wing, and it had 2 strange turbine like things and no propellors. "So, how does it fly without propellors" asked the president. The soldier replied "well it uses jets.. you'll see shortly". A uniformed soldier stapped into it and everyone moved to asafe distance to the observation seats. THe plane was activated and suddenly it flew into the air, faster than even the best of the atlantean planes by a large margin. "My god, how HAVE we gotten all this?" asked a now dumbfounded president William Jennings bryan? The soldier replied "Well after they invaded they also brough their equipment which included technical manuals and things like their system of transmitting voice through the air that they call the eye of horus..". Since the arrival of the atlanteans things had changed extremely rapidly in the USA. Cinema,the eye of horus, more modern medicine, even the beginnings of commercial air freight were all making their mark on the victorian era....

[Justin Green]

since Bryan would have to be elected in 1892 to be president for your blurb, he would be 32 years old when elected, except that that isnt legal.

[carlton_bach]

The Atlantean fleet will devastate anything Ericsson can put out there. ACW-period metallurgy is simply not capable of producing anything...neither armor plating or guns...that can compete with a WWI Dreadnought. You also have the problem that the Atlanteans are going to own the coastal regions in short order. Where are these things going to be built?

Hmmm. Bombay? Capetown? Sydney? Shanghai? San Francisco? It'd be hard to do, but the Atlanteans are going to have their hands full suppressing the Atlantic seaboard, so our best hope lies with India, China, and the Pacific. Sure, the technology would need to be brought there, but I think it could be done even at so early a date.

[Dave Howery]

I'd think most of the fighting will be in the east. It's tough to get across the continent at this time.. no transcontinental railroad, no road net, no transport planes.... once you get east of the Mississippi, it gets tough to operate even an army no more modern than WW1... plus, there's no gasoline industry.... I suppose the Atlanteans could sail around the Horn (no canal) and invade CA if they wanted to...

[Thande]

This idea of GBW's has always fascinated me, and I'm currently planning a story loosely based on the idea, with some changes (for broader interest, I'm going to set it in 1812 rather than during the Civil War). GBW, do you have any objections?

[luakel]

Hmm, how much will your version parallel Turtledove's? And maybe if you're setting it earlier, you could give the Atlanteans less advanced tech, like from the early 1900's instead (unless you want them to win, of course ;) ).

[Agentdark]

Give them tech from 1900, and this would be a great story....

[Thande]

Hmm, how much will your version parallel Turtledove's? And maybe if you're setting it earlier, you could give the Atlanteans less advanced tech, like from the early 1900's instead (unless you want them to win, of course ;) ).

I'm planning on circa 1925, but they won't have as relative great numbers as the Race.

[MrP]

I'm planning on circa 1925, but they won't have as relative great numbers as the Race.

1925 naval tech vs. anything afloat in '63? Poor old non-Atlanteans. :(

It'd not be quite as bad as the Sealion scenario of wallowing barges opposing nimble destroyers that vastly outgun them, but it won't be pretty. HMS Warrior's best ever speed was 17 knots under canvas and at full power. By 1925 the Atlanteans' modern battleline will be about 19-25 knots depending on their TL's precise circumstances. Their battleships' armour will be impenetrable, their guns will have hugely superior fire control and penetration. There were several revolutions in warship design between 1863 and 1925. Just off the top of my head: the RN had great trouble with breach-loaders, all great powers vacillated between different proportions of armour for their warships, and unit cost increased so often and so much that governments tended to set limits aimed at minimising costs.

That said, with increased motivation to design better warships, there's every reason to expect that technology will progress faster than IOTL. Given that OTL saw most nations building ships whose plans changed repeatedly during construction as technology improved.

I think Britain's doomed, if there's a proper attack on her. The only hope would be successful boarding actions . . . against faster ships with better armament.

[Thande]

1925 naval tech vs. anything afloat in '63? Poor old non-Atlanteans. :(

1812, not 1863 (see above). Initially it's going to be a turkey shoot for the Atlanteans...but then, initially, it was a turkey shoot for the Race in 1942...

[MrP]

1812, not 1863 (see above). Initially it's going to be a turkey shoot for the Atlanteans...but then, initially, it was a turkey shoot for the Race in 1942...

Ah, silly me. I had read it - but my brain hadn't processed it. :o

What size is the Atlantean fleet, out of interest?

Size of Brazil's IOTL? A couple of dreadnoughts and a variety of cruisers and destroyers with a few subs? Slightly bigger (Austrian/Italian/Japanese)? Powerful, but not superpower status (American/French)? Or ludicrously huge (RN/HSF)?

[Thande]

Ah, silly me. I had read it - but my brain hadn't processed it. :o

What size is the Atlantean fleet, out of interest?

Size of Brazil's IOTL? A couple of dreadnoughts and a variety of cruisers and destroyers with a few subs? Slightly bigger (Austrian/Italian/Japanese)? Powerful, but not superpower status (American/French)? Or ludicrously huge (RN/HSF)?

Haven't really decided yet. Tell you what, I'll PM you my current ideas and then perhaps you can give me some advice. Basically, though, we're talking "last remnants of what was once a superpower fleet".

[DuQuense]

the Atlantici [If you go with this and not a ISOT from a 1925 TL where OTL X Country was super expansionist] biggest weak spot will be Fuel; Re that German Ship in the Italy at the start of WW1 desperately trying to get Coal, to get to Turkey.

When the Powers realize this the war will be all About Attacking the Alantici's fuel depots.

[Dave Howery]

the north will speed up the development of the Spencer and Henry rifles, just to have some kind of rapid fire gun... and the Gatling might be perfected earlier...

[stevep]

the Atlantici [If you go with this and not a ISOT from a 1925 TL where OTL X Country was super expansionist] biggest weak spot will be Fuel; Re that German Ship in the Italy at the start of WW1 desperately trying to get Coal, to get to Turkey.

When the Powers realize this the war will be all About Attacking the Alantici's fuel depots.

DuQuense

That would depend on the resources of Atlantis surely? If it has its won extensive coal supplies [or possibly oil for Thande's 1925 version] then that would be less of a factor.

Another factor might be the basis for their sudden appearance. Are they from this Earth, hidden/removed in some way and just now restored, or from some parallel world? [Possibly a desperate attempt to escape from a losing war although that wouldn't really fit with 1925 equivalent tech]. Similarly how much do they know about the world they find themselves in. Even with much better tech if they don't know what lands are where and where resources and population centres are they will be groping around a bit and this might give the local population some warning and chance to react a bit.

The other factor, of course is what is their motivation? If, as in Thande's scenario, they are very limited in numbers, then presumably they are not after world conquest as too few in numbers to actually be everywhere. Therefore would they be attacking all and sundry or have particular aims?

Steve