German Partition

[Typo]

Let's just say for whatever reason the Soviets don't make it past Warsaw by the time Germany surrenders, maybe due to less/no lend-lease, or maybe because the Germans do better at some point. So the west gets pretty much all of pre-war Germany, would they/how would they split up the country?

[Grey Wolf]

Let's just say for whatever reason the Soviets don't make it past Warsaw by the time Germany surrenders, maybe due to less/no lend-lease, or maybe because the Germans do better at some point. So the west gets pretty much all of pre-war Germany, would they/how would they split up the country?

Presumably still into zones of occupation since they would need to be able to administer it

The alternative would be to keep the Flensburg government in place - IIRC it hobbled on for a few weeks after the surrender (having kicked Himmler out etc) before being arrested en masse. The argument could be made that since it signed the surrender it exists as the legitimate authority - certainly people like Speer were disappointed that this argument was simply negated. The idea that Germany does NOT have a legitimate government is a confused one, since if it doesn't then who or what signed the surrender ? The Allies might find it useful to keep this government as a puppet unified administration, allowing them to gain control of Germany as a whole, and divide it into military zones as opposed to occupation zones

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Prem_Rack]

The idea that Germany does NOT have a legitimate government is a confused one, since if it doesn't then who or what signed the surrender ? The Allies might find it useful to keep this government as a puppet unified administration, allowing them to gain control of Germany as a whole, and divide it into military zones as opposed to occupation zones

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Well it was uncoditional surrender, so I guess the allies were free to do whatever please them. Anyway, I can't see the Soviets resigning from their right to occupation zone, no matter where the fronts has meet. I mean, French get one, and it's not that they contributed greatly to the final demise of the Nazi.

[Kabraloth]

Just split it up like the Morgenthau Plan suggested, give some more to the Netherlands as well, and everyone is happy (except for Germany, but meh).

It's not such a bad way to split Germany if you are able to keep up with the political and humanitarian fallout (which OTL the USA wasn't able to, and I don't think any democracy would have been able to in the long run).

[Nietzsche]

...that's an excellent way to start another war in twenty years. "Hey! Lets slice up Germany like a pizza and give them legitimate reason to hate us! Again!"

[Valdemar II]

I think a partipation is the most likely. Some of the West German Länder are big enough to become countries on their own especially Bavaria, North Rhine-Westfalen and Baden-Württemberg.

Beside that we could see some incorporations of different Länder

Hesse, Saarland and Rhineland-Palatinate (Hesse-Rhineland)

Lower Saxony, Bremen, Schlewig-Holstein and Hamburg (Lower Saxony)

Thuringia, Saxony-Anhalt and Saxony (Upper Saxony)

Mecklenburg, Berlin, Brandenburg, Silesia* and Pommerania* (Brandeburg-Mecklenburg)

While Prussia either end up as a independent state or is given to either (or split between) Poland and Lithuania/USSR.

Beside that we will likely see a continued military occupation by the allies for decades.

*That's left of these two areas.

[Kalan]

I think it would largely depend on the Soviet Union. If they are the same as IOTL and try to transform every country they occupy into a puppet state, Churchill says something about an Iron Curtain descending from Danzig to the Danube and so on, Germany will be quickly reunited and integrated into the western Alliance System.

If the failure of the USSR to advance to Berlin is because they are weaker than IOTL - possibly because Stalin died and now there is a committee and not a single person ruling the USSR - and the new leaders are content with finlandizing Poland, Slovakia and Romania, then the Allies will likely partition Germany.

[arctic warrior]

Just split it up like the Morgenthau Plan suggested, give some more to the Netherlands as well, and everyone is happy (except for Germany, but meh).

It's not such a bad way to split Germany if you are able to keep up with the political and humanitarian fallout (which OTL the USA wasn't able to, and I don't think any democracy would have been able to in the long run).

Denmark would have resisted being giftet with more Germany. The 1920 border had worked fine without even Hitler changing it so why invite trouble. BTW nobody wanted to feed a million Germans.

[Keith Robertsson]

All this means is the dissolution of the Hohenzollern empire not that bad of an idea. If Bavaria and others had been allowed to regain their independence after WW1, Hitler and company might have been butterflied.
I think a partipation is the most likely. Some of the West German Länder are big enough to become countries on their own especially Bavaria, North Rhine-Westfalen and Baden-Württemberg.

Beside that we could see some incorporations of different Länder

Hesse, Saarland and Rhineland-Palatinate (Hesse-Rhineland)

Lower Saxony, Bremen, Schlewig-Holstein and Hamburg (Lower Saxony)

Thuringia, Saxony-Anhalt and Saxony (Upper Saxony)

Mecklenburg, Berlin, Brandenburg, Silesia* and Pommerania* (Brandeburg-Mecklenburg)

While Prussia either end up as a independent state or is given to either (or split between) Poland and Lithuania/USSR.

Beside that we will likely see a continued military occupation by the allies for decades.

*That's left of these two areas.

[Valdemar II]

All this means is the dissolution of the Hohenzollern empire not that bad of an idea. If Bavaria and others had been allowed to regain their independence after WW1, Hitler and company might have been butterflied.

You misundstand this is a forced partipation, the military occupation is to prevent a reunification, there is no allowing the different states to get independent, they want to be one country. A few decades later we will maybe see a internal patriotism in the different states, but not in 1950, just like there was little support for Bavarian and Rhinelandish independents in 1920.

[Valdemar II]

A potential map of Europe 1948

[Kabraloth]

Needs to give more stuff to Poland.

[Nietzsche]

Needs to give more stuff to Poland.


If you're going to split Germany up, you have to make each state viable to support itself. Giving more to Poland would make any Brandenburg-ish state a failure, especially if you give them all of Silesia(Them = Poland). If anything, Poland needs less. Why? Because a Prussian state with the Corridor and Danzig would be a far better buffer against Communism.



Edit: My revised map. One may wonder why Austria got Bohemia? Simple. Looking at the Balkans, it appears to all be Soviet puppet nations. Not good. So, as Prussia is a bulwark against Soviet Expansion into Western Europe, Austria shall be the buffer for Italy.

[Kabraloth]

It's bad enough to that Poland was moved like a dead chess piece around half of Central Europe, but it needs to be a viable nation, too, especially since the war was (theoretically) fought for its freedom.
You can always keep an impoverished Brandenburg down.

[Nietzsche]

It's bad enough to that Poland was moved like a dead chess piece around half of Central Europe, but it needs to be a viable nation, too, especially since the war was (theoretically) fought for its freedom.
You can always keep an impoverished Brandenburg down.

No one really cares about Poland. Let's be honest here. It's an agriculturally-based nation even when it gained Silesia. It's dead weight. Poland only exists now because the Soviets didn't outright annex it. A strong Prussian state would be best for the security of Western Europe. Relying on the Militarist Tradition, and attempted Soviet invasion would could atleast be halted long enough for French, British, German Minor and American troops to back them up. Poland on the other hand, simply doesn't have that capability unless you want to give them all of what came to be 'East Germany' in OTL.

[Valdemar II]

Needs to give more stuff to Poland.

While I don't think it's necessary to give Poland more stuff, because even
with the loss of most of its Ukrainian and Belarussian territories, it better of
with Prussia and Danzig, which give Poland a clear coastline, I still think you
correct in that Poland likely will get more stuff, so take two

[Susano]

All this means is the dissolution of the Hohenzollern empire not that bad of an idea. If Bavaria and others had been allowed to regain their independence after WW1, Hitler and company might have been butterflied.
The Hohenzollern Empire? Oh god, not this shit again:rolleyes:

It's bad enough to that Poland was moved like a dead chess piece around half of Central Europe, but it needs to be a viable nation, too, especially since the war was (theoretically) fought for its freedom.
You can always keep an impoverished Brandenburg down.
Eh, Poland in that borders IS viable. Besides, IOTL, near every partition plan for Germany throughout teh war saw for Poland to gain East Prussia, Upper Silesia, nd the remnaints of West Prussia-Posen, but not Pommerania or Lower Silesia. So its plausible enough.

[thrashing_mad]

No one really cares about Poland. Let's be honest here. It's an agriculturally-based nation even when it gained Silesia. It's dead weight. Poland only exists now because the Soviets didn't outright annex it.

Yeah, right. I suppose that your previous posts on these forums like here (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1872013&postcount=3275) are just coincidence? You seem to be highly nationalistic person, that could become German equivalent of infamous Molobo. :) What happened, Poles took your job or girlfriend away from you, or you`re just a fan of mr Hitler?

I will say it again - death to internet trolls.

[Nietzsche]

Yeah, right. I suppose that your previous posts on these forums like here (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1872013&postcount=3275) are just coincidence? You seem to be highly nationalistic person, that could become German equivalent of infamous Molobo. :) What happened, Poles took your job or girlfriend away from you, or you`re just a fan of mr Hitler?

I will say it again - death to internet trolls.

uhh..

I'm a Cherokee American with a thing for German philosophers, I'm just stating a simple fact. When compared to Germany(which encompasses most of Europe's better sulfur, iron and coal mines), Poland is just an afterthought.

[Prem_Rack]

C'mon, giving Bohemia to Austria? What do you think it is, 1815? Besides Eastern Europe already been promised to Stalin, so the whole talking about Poland, or Prussia, being "buffer against communism" doesn't make any sense.
I proclaim this thread to be the FAIL.

[Saladan]

Wait, if the USSR does worse in this TL then why are we allowing them to get even a bit of Poland? Hell let's kick them out of Eastern Europe and Europe all together. If Stalin is dead then I doubt there will be a leader in the SU with the will power to pursue any territory.

[Valdemar II]

Wait, if the USSR does worse in this TL then why are we allowing them to get even a bit of Poland? Hell let's kick them out of Eastern Europe and Europe all together. If Stalin is dead then I doubt there will be a leader in the SU with the will power to pursue any territory.

:rolleyes:
Are you suggesting a genocide of 60 million people? While the Germans was rather hated in the periode, but try to look at the very small number of them who were ethnic cleansed in the West in OTL*, the truth are that no West European country had the stomach for that large scale ethnic cleansing or genocide**, and I doubt they would support even the East European countries in it.

*Netherland tried to drive out 20000 German in the end they ended up just sending 2000 to Germany.

**Especially not in Europe against other White Christians.

[Nietzsche]

C'mon, giving Bohemia to Austria? What do you think it is, 1815? Besides Eastern Europe already been promised to Stalin, so the whole talking about Poland, or Prussia, being "buffer against communism" doesn't make any sense.
I proclaim this thread to be the FAIL.


You've completely missed the point of alternate history, haven't you?

[Saladan]

:rolleyes:
Are you suggesting a genocide of 60 million people? While the Germans was rather hated in the periode try to look at the very small number of them who ethnic cleansed in the West in OTL*, the truth are that no West European country had the stomach for that large scale ethnic cleansing or genocide**, and I doubt they would support even the East European countries in it.

*Netherland tried to drive out 20000 German in the end they ended up just sending 2000 to Germany.

**Especially not in Europe against other White Christians.

When I meant kick them out, I meant make it so the Soviets have no way of exerting their influence on Eastern Europe like they did in OTL. Also have them reestablish the Baltic states independence along with returning eastern Poland and the parts of Finland they took. Since they did all of these (excluding the Finland part) with the help of Germany and some what illegally I see no reason to allow them to retain control of these territory's.

[Prem_Rack]

You've completely missed the point of alternate history, haven't you?

You don't know real history, do you?

[Nietzsche]

You don't know real history, do you?

If the soviets are doing worse TTL, there is no reason to give them Eastern Europe. Butterfly away the Potsdam conference and you can do nigh-whatever you want with Germany if the Soviets are still stuck somewhere in Congress Poland or Belarus.