Challenge: Canada a world power

[JimmyJimJam]

Pretty self-explanatory. When I say "world power", I mean Canada emerging from the 20th century on par with Britain in OTL (and rising).

[Weapon M]

OK, the whole "fifty-four forty or fight" border thing somehow ends up way south, and in 1867, Canada buys Alaska, or after many in the US complain about "Seward's folly", the US sells it to Canada for a profit...

This gives Canada way much more Pacific frontage, and Alaskan rsources.

It's a start...maybe pick up Greenland from the Danes, and somewhere in the Caribbean that they've been eyeing, too.

[Ace Venom]

Hmm...I'd definitely say that the War of 1812 could go ten times worse for the Americans, leading to New England attempting to secede from the USA as Canadian and British troops enter their territory. However, Britain sees no need to prop up a puppet regime and just annexes the New England states (including New York) into British North America.

Effective control of New England leaves the US dominated by slave holding states. Slavery persists in the United States into the early 20th Century, making them extremely uncompetitive in world affairs.

British North America experiences waves of immigration, giving Canada a huge population base. Once Canada is able to tap its resources to its full potential, it should become one of the dominant powers in the world in TTL.

[JimmyJimJam]

Does humbling the US have to be part of this timeline?

Could a fragmented union of Northern states, after southern victory in the civil war, join with Canada?

[Derek Jackson]

I think you also have to have Canada break with Britain?

Until the late 1860s Canada was actually a colony of Britain.

Query- Might Britain siding with the CSA have REALLY upset Canadians so much that they would do their own 4th of July?

[Ace Venom]

Originally Posted by Derek Jackson

I think you also have to have Canada break with Britain?

Until the late 1860s Canada was actually a colony of Britain.

Query- Might Britain siding with the CSA have REALLY upset Canadians so much that they would do their own 4th of July?

Considering the Brits would have to occupy Canada in the event of a Trent Affair war, the situation in Canada becomes like that of Maryland: they want out, but can't get out due to occupying forces.

[Grey Wolf]

No

Why would Canada be pissed off about British backing for the CSA ?

Its not a logical position

The MAIN way to make Canada a world power is to boost

1. Population
2. Centres of population

With regard for the latter, Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver are not known as major industrial cities in this period, powerhouses with a future role etc

Grey Wolf
gettin tired

[JLCook]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

No

Why would Canada be pissed off about British backing for the CSA ?

Its not a logical position

The MAIN way to make Canada a world power is to boost

1. Population
2. Centres of population

With regard for the latter, Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver are not known as major industrial cities in this period, powerhouses with a future role etc

Grey Wolf
gettin tired

Yes, You'd have to find a way to drasticlly boost Canada's population. If you find a way to grant Canada vastly larger and more exploitable mineral resources such that huge numbers of people are required, giving Canada a vast immigration boost,, and then provide for the developement of a huge industrial base, it could be done!

Give Canada a population of 100,000,000 to 150,000,000 people and you'd have a Canad world power!

[LordKalvan]

Originally Posted by JLCook

Yes, You'd have to find a way to drasticlly boost Canada's population. If you find a way to grant Canada vastly larger and more exploitable mineral resources such that huge numbers of people are required, giving Canada a vast immigration boost,, and then provide for the developement of a huge industrial base, it could be done!

Give Canada a population of 100,000,000 to 150,000,000 people and you'd have a Canad world power!

If all things stay equal, there is no reason for old world migrants in the XIX and early XX century to go to Canada rather than to USA as in OTL. To boost so much Canada population, there must be some major POD in USA which makes them unattractive for migration. A longer ACW, which ends in CSA victory leaving the North embittered and isolationists? or some laws restricting franchise and civil rights for new migrants? I have major difficulties in building up a case to convince Iriosh to go to Canada (British colony) rather than to USA

[JimmyJimJam]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

No

Why would Canada be pissed off about British backing for the CSA ?

Its not a logical position

The MAIN way to make Canada a world power is to boost

Its a plenty logical position. Canadians were pretty dead-set against slavery (underground railroad to canada, plenty of canadian volunteers for the union). Canada also might get sick of Britain meddling in North American affairs that have reprecussions for Canadians in the long run.

[JimmyJimJam]

Question: Why are we all assuming Canada needs a high population base along with resources? Aren't there ways of achieving power without these (technology, good leadership, even being in the right place at the right time)? Look at Britain on the eve of Empire: did it have a high population and resource base?

[Straha]

this is so easy its not funny.

Have the brits win the american revolution,abolish lsaavery by the 1820's then in the 1830's and 1840's slowly give their north american(and carribean) colonies freedom. They need a name for it so why not Canada?

[LordKalvan]

Originally Posted by JimmyJimJam

Question: Why are we all assuming Canada needs a high population base along with resources? Aren't there ways of achieving power without these (technology, good leadership, even being in the right place at the right time)? Look at Britain on the eve of Empire: did it have a high population and resource base?

Yes, they do. The industrialization requires a lot of manpower, ditto for a reasonable standing army.
In Britain, the Industrial Revolution was set up (among other things) by an abundant reservoir of manpower, created by the closure of the commons and the migration of a lot of evicted tenants toward the cities.

[Valamyr]

Originally Posted by Derek Jackson

Until the late 1860s Canada was actually a colony of Britain.

I'd say 1931. Not much freedom until you control your own foreign policy...

Late 1860s was just the union of a bunch of colonies into one big colony with a name.

[JimmyJimJam]

Originally Posted by LordKalvan

Yes, they do. The industrialization requires a lot of manpower, ditto for a reasonable standing army.
In Britain, the Industrial Revolution was set up (among other things) by an abundant reservoir of manpower, created by the closure of the commons and the migration of a lot of evicted tenants toward the cities.

Im curious as to what Britains population was in the 18th century (not including Scotland, Wales, and Ireland).

[fhaessig]

Easy.

Due to different kingly/cardinal policies, you have mass emigration ( 2,000,000+ ) of french protestant to Canada before the 1670s. So France keeps Canada. Coureurs des bois explore and colonise the Mississipi and Link the colonies of Nouvelle France and Louisiana. The USA are limited to the Atlantic coast ( plus Cuba ). *Canada occupies the rest of the north American continent except for Mexico ( which includes California and Part of Texas ).

[JimmyJimJam]

Originally Posted by fhaessig

Easy.

Due to different kingly/cardinal policies, you have mass emigration ( 2,000,000+ ) of french protestant to Canada before the 1670s. So France keeps Canada. Coureurs des bois explore and colonise the Mississipi and Link the colonies of Nouvelle France and Louisiana. The USA are limited to the Atlantic coast ( plus Cuba ). *Canada occupies the rest of the north American continent except for Mexico ( which includes California and Part of Texas ).

French majority Canada. Shudder.

[Straha]

Originally Posted by JimmyJimJam

French majority Canada. Shudder.

french majority superpower canada. double shudder.

[fhaessig]

Originally Posted by Straha

french majority superpower canada. double shudder.

in what? Wonder?

[wkwillis]

In 1776 there is a large hydrate release. Greenhouse warming moves the Barley line north of 75, the arctic ice cap melts, and huge numbers of farmers can move to Canada and grow crops on the long, long, long, Canadian shoreline. You ever really look at how many islands Canada has?
So the soil is thin to nonexistant over large areas, and muskeg over most of the rest. So what? There's so much on the water or up some nice rivers, suitable for canals and dams. Speaking of dams, the arctic ice cap going is going to give you a nice lake effect. Lots of rain in the winter, lots of sun in the summer when the crops are growing, lots of sheep to spread seeds of clover and grass everywhere as they wander.
Yeah, you can do it. Now how to ensure that the British fight a war with Russia and grab Alaska? Oh yeah, there's too little rain to grow much in the south of the US, not to mention that the rain mostly comes from hurricanes all the way to Cincinatti in the summer.
Then the sea starts to rise as the ice caps melt and the Mississippi delta floods all the way to St. Louis...