Roman and or Greek Colonization of Macaronesia during Classical Antiquity

Suppose that Macaronesia is colonized by the Roman and or Greek traders and or settlers? Carthage was already discussed on this but what about Rome or Greece?

- What year would be acceptable for colonization?

- What would be the names of each island in Latin and or Greek in Macaronesia?

- How does this affect the history of West Africa? More so, how long would it take until they start to explore and colonize the shores of West Africa?

- What would be the challenges Macaronesia face in colonizing West Africa?

- Would it be able to explore the Americas in the Early Middle Ages...or even earlier perhaps?

- What year would be acceptable for colonization?

Click to expand...

For the Greeks, around the Peloponnesian War would do best. For the Romans, anytime from the demise of Carthage to when the Roman Empire begins to falter (about 250 CE) would do.

- What would be the names of each island in Greek or Latin?

Click to expand...

I have no idea what any single islands' names are today, nor would I know what they might name it, nor am I a linguist.

- How does this affect the history of West Africa? More so, how long would it take until they start to explore and colonize the shores of West Africa?

Click to expand...

West Africa is more developed, and the settlers, if they were to attempt to, would go exploring and settling as soon as the land on the islands got taken up, so about 2-4 generations.

- What would be the challenges Macaronesia face in colonizing West Africa?

Click to expand...

Mainly, if they bother to, manpower and supply. Macaronesia is going to be like an ancient Iceland, far off and short in lots of stuff. Then, you have the natives. Which would turn a Hellenistic Macaronesian West Africa into an ancient Greenland or Vinland.

- Would it be able to explore the Americas in the Early Middle Ages...or even earlier perhaps?

Click to expand...

Simple answer: No. The distances, technology and currents simply don't allow it. Macaronesia is going to be, however, a prize when America gets colonized and trade with the East established, a maritime rest place. If retains actual Hellenistic culture, then it also gets coveted as a source of classical culture during the Renaissance.

What I think you should be asking is how might this affect Europe? Pyrhus or the Punics might emigrate there when their homelands are taken, and if it becomes part of the Roman Empire, then a rump state could exist there far into the middle ages. What if the Roman Republic moved over after the Empire took over and it became forgotten until rediscovered by the Portuguese in the 1400s?

Harald Sigurdson II said:

For the Greeks, around the Peloponnesian War would do best. For the Romans, anytime from the demise of Carthage to when the Roman Empire begins to falter (about 250 CE) would do.



I have no idea what any single islands' names are today, nor would I know what they might name it, nor am I a linguist.



West Africa is more developed, and the settlers, if they were to attempt to, would go exploring and settling as soon as the land on the islands got taken up, so about 2-4 generations.



Mainly, if they bother to, manpower and supply. Macaronesia is going to be like an ancient Iceland, far off and short in lots of stuff. Then, you have the natives. Which would turn a Hellenistic Macaronesian West Africa into an ancient Greenland or Vinland.



Simple answer: No. The distances, technology and currents simply don't allow it. Macaronesia is going to be, however, a prize when America gets colonized and trade with the East established, a maritime rest place. If retains actual Hellenistic culture, then it also gets coveted as a source of classical culture during the Renaissance.

What I think you should be asking is how might this affect Europe? Pyrhus or the Punics might emigrate there when their homelands are taken, and if it becomes part of the Roman Empire, then a rump state could exist there far into the middle ages. What if the Roman Republic moved over after the Empire took over and it became forgotten until rediscovered by the Portuguese in the 1400s?

Click to expand...

2..I have actually been looking into do that. From Wikipedia, the Azores could go with Makaronesia. Pliny mentioned Madeira as the purple islands so translating it to Greek from Google translate it would be Μωβ νησιά (Mo̱v ni̱siá). The Canaries was known as the Island of Dogs or Canariae Insulae. Cape Verde was called the Gorgades.

History of the Azores

History of Madeira

Canary Islands Etymology

History of Cape Verde


6. Could be very interesting. Perhaps the Latin language survives into the modern day or they adopt the Italian language and still speak Latin?

What I'm thinking though is that Makaronesia and the other islands would be known by the Europeans during the Early middle ages. Perhaps they trade with the Moors and its existence would be continually known.

Perhaps after the fall of Byzantine Empire, Greek Refugees settle on Makaronesia reinforcing Hellenistic and or Roman culture.

shadowkiller91234567 said:

Perhaps after the fall of Byzantine Empire, Greek Refugees settle on Makaronesia reinforcing Hellenistic and or Roman culture.

Click to expand...

Careful with statements like this, you've killed thousands of butterflies!

It isn't impossible that with this change the Roman Empire as we knew it wouldn't have existed, that the turks would come across, etc.

I'm not sure if this would butterfly it away, but it certainly could. Especially if the PoD that enabled this to happen was a non-assassination of Philip II of Macedon. I've seen it suggested that he wouldn't have gone as conquest-crazy as Alexander as he was a better ruler than his son. In that scenario I've always seen an empire of the same sort of territory as the Byzantines (Greece, Anatolia, Egypt, Levant). If he chose to expand his Greek hegemony over the islands to the west, or even use his control over his subjects in Tyre et al. to expand into and over Carthage, you could well see someone going that far, either to get away, or on orders. Create a classical empire centred on the Mediterranean that actually LIKED water? (Unlike Rome) You could well see a colonisation. Out there, but it wouldn't be Greek as we knew it, or pure Greek. But certainly an ATL Koine.

ooooh, I like that idea *fervently starts thinking*

Getting the Greeks to be able to do it is going to be extremely difficult. The Carthaginians had a stranglehold on the Pillars of Hercules, and they have a very good reason for not wanting to let the greeks go past them. There was the tin trade with Britain, and other trading outsposts in N. Africa and the atlantic coast of Spain that they didn't want the greeks getting a share in. To get the Greeks to Macaronesia you first have to deal with Carthage.

Would these Romans/Greeks form a sort of breakaway culture that is kind of a frozen-in-time image of when they were originally colonized for a long period? The thought is intriguing.

Bumping

Bump...bump...

Generaloberst said:

Would these Romans/Greeks form a sort of breakaway culture that is kind of a frozen-in-time image of when they were originally colonized for a long period? The thought is intriguing.

Click to expand...

Depends on wherther or not they maintain contact with Europe. The OP said that contact is maintained, but for most of the islands you will see a hybrid European-Hellenistic culture, and on the remote islands a strange frozen-in-time culture, where hellenistic paganism might remain for a while.

shadowkiller91234567 said:

2..I have actually been looking into do that. From Wikipedia, the Azores could go with Makaronesia. Pliny mentioned Madeira as the purple islands so translating it to Greek from Google translate it would be Μωβ νησιά (Mo̱v ni̱siá). The Canaries was known as the Island of Dogs or Canariae Insulae. Cape Verde was called the Gorgades.




6. Could be very interesting. Perhaps the Latin language survives into the modern day or they adopt the Italian language and still speak Latin?

What I'm thinking though is that Makaronesia and the other islands would be known by the Europeans during the Early middle ages. Perhaps they trade with the Moors and its existence would be continually known.

Perhaps after the fall of Byzantine Empire, Greek Refugees settle on Makaronesia reinforcing Hellenistic and or Roman culture.

Click to expand...

Μωβ νησια = Mob Nesia/Näsia in ancient Greek

They won't speak Latin or Italian but an own romance language.

Byzantine refugees won't settle on makaronia for the same reasons they don't go to america to form a government-in-exile.

LeCHVCK said:

Μωβ νησια = Mob Nesia/Näsia in ancient Greek

They won't speak Latin or Italian but an own romance language.

Byzantine refugees won't settle on makaronia for the same reasons they don't go to america to form a government-in-exile.

Click to expand...

Μωβ Oops. That's a phonetic MODERN Greek rendering of the English/French "mauve". That word only dates back to 1857 (in English, at least).

Greek for purple is πορφυρόεις

Colonizing West Africa?

I was looking at Google maps on West Africa and that if colonization were to begin, Makaronesia, Gorgades, the Purple Islands, and Canariae Insulae they best place to start would be at the Geba River.

Settlements could be created on Bissagos Island. A city could be created on OTL Bissau and along the Geba, trading posts, forts perhaps that could develop into cities?

Another place or colonization could be along the Gambia River. A city could be built upon OTL Banjul.

Perhaps we could see the development in West Africa the possiblity of Latinized and or Hellenized Kingdoms beginning in the Early Middle Ages. Perhaps their influence drastically change the indigenous people of West Africa...

Just an idea that crossed my mind: The islands would be the ideal location for isolated monasteries. You know, the ones that you stick troublesome pretenders to the Imperial throne after they get overthrown and mercifully allowed to live as mutilated monks off in some distant exile...

AFRO-HELLENES!

It seems probable also depending on the situation (assuming this in the Roman period), a Hellenistic Macronesia could house the last stronghold of Hellenic paganism (if Christianity or ATL-Christianity takes over Rome). The idea of cities and forts in Western Africa could alter African history forever. With the development, culturally and technologically advancing possibly as fast or faster than European technology, the Afro-Hellenes could become a formidable power that could supress later colonial attempts in West Africa, allowing the area to open for a unique stage of development.

The colonial attempts could start as early as the 1st century BC for the Romans and even earlier (with some Carthage destroying) for the Greeks. This allows for a long period of development of culture and identity. The Canaries are home to Berber peoples but they could even disappear with centuries of Graeco-Roman migration. I would say by the 3rd century most if not all of "coastal" West Africa would be of knowledge to the colonisers and much of it could already be settled by the militarily stronger Graeco-Romans. Brazil would almost certainly (probably by accident) be discovered within a century or so of the first explorations south of Macronesia but depending on the hostilities of the natives will see how long it takes for the colonists to grab a foothold.

Someone better make this a timeline!!!

DominusNovus said:

Just an idea that crossed my mind: The islands would be the ideal location for isolated monasteries. You know, the ones that you stick troublesome pretenders to the Imperial throne after they get overthrown and mercifully allowed to live as mutilated monks off in some distant exile...

Click to expand...

I don't think so. The Iberian kingdoms considered the islands as vulnerable outposts for a long time, so the monks and nuns were not very tempted to establish there.

Harald Sigurdson II said:

Quote:
- Would it be able to explore the Americas in the Early Middle Ages...or even earlier perhaps?


Simple answer: No. The distances, technology and currents simply don't allow it. Macaronesia is going to be, however, a prize when America gets colonized and trade with the East established, a maritime rest place. If retains actual Hellenistic culture, then it also gets coveted as a source of classical culture during the Renaissance.

Click to expand...

I'd strongly disagree with this.

If Macaronesia is settled, sooner or later the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Archipelago will be.
The currents take you straight there from Cape Verde, and it's actually the closest islands to Cape Verde. (Closer than the Canaries!)

Or Fernando de Noronha, which is nearby and even closer to South America.

From Saint Peter&Paul, you're a stone's throw from the Brazilian coast. Travel there is inevitable.

A crossing of the whole Atlantic is unlikely, but island-hopping across? Virtually guaranteed.

fluttersky said:

I'd strongly disagree with this.

If Macaronesia is settled, sooner or later the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Archipelago will be.
The currents take you straight there from Cape Verde, and it's actually the closest islands to Cape Verde. (Closer than the Canaries!)

Or Fernando de Noronha, which is nearby and even closer to South America.

From Saint Peter&Paul, you're a stone's throw from the Brazilian coast. Travel there is inevitable.

A crossing of the whole Atlantic is unlikely, but island-hopping across? Virtually guaranteed.

Click to expand...

Now that is a contribution to this sort of conversation I've never come across.

This could be the big game changer, whilst resource exploitation isn't really as lucrative a goal as you have to go against the currents, those journeys are now feasible, if difficult.

I'd love to see a timeline where these islands are all colonised and the Romans use them as a stepping stone to Brazil and W.Africa - be it to exile troublesome nobles, or for glory in the name of the Empire.

Ah, the tiny, entirely helpless Isle of Neptune. Making anything more than the most primitive of ports would cost a fortune though. 2-3 ships tops.

How to know you have pissed off the Emperor? Becoming Captain of the teeny fort/port. I hope you like seafood.

fluttersky said:

If Macaronesia is settled, sooner or later the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Archipelago will be.
The currents take you straight there from Cape Verde, and it's actually the closest islands to Cape Verde. (Closer than the Canaries!)

Click to expand...

I dunno about that. What's to settle, basically, its a bunch of reefs with pretensions. No trees. No real soil. No vegetation to speak of, apart from a few mosses and possibly introduced grasses. No permanent fresh water. Roughly 160,000 square feet, divided up among a handful of islands, the largest of which is 50,000 square feet, the second largest is 30,000, and the next three run between 15,000 and 10,000 square feet, and then you have little spit rocks. Highest elevation is 59 feet. So most of the place is simply vulnerable to getting washed way by storms. It's basically uninhabitable. There's just not enough land to sustain agriculture for even a tiny community, and not enough secure land to establish a fort or port or settlement, no fresh water to last a year, no wildlife to support reprovisioning, and the rocks are a hazard to navigation, and given the ocean drop off, I wouldn't expect any substantial fishing.

I think that the largest obstacle to settling Macaronesia is the lack of desirability. There's nothing there that the seafaring cultures of Antiquity wanted or needed.

Mario said:

I don't think so. The Iberian kingdoms considered the islands as vulnerable outposts for a long time, so the monks and nuns were not very tempted to establish there.

Click to expand...

I don't see why being a vulnerable outpost would preclude a monastery being established. Particularly during antiquity, monks loved places that were remote and as far away from the comforts of civilization as they could manage.

fluttersky said:

I'd strongly disagree with this.

If Macaronesia is settled, sooner or later the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Archipelago will be.
The currents take you straight there from Cape Verde, and it's actually the closest islands to Cape Verde. (Closer than the Canaries!)

Or Fernando de Noronha, which is nearby and even closer to South America.

From Saint Peter&Paul, you're a stone's throw from the Brazilian coast. Travel there is inevitable.

A crossing of the whole Atlantic is unlikely, but island-hopping across? Virtually guaranteed.

Click to expand...

The thing with Macaronesia is that settling them naturally invokes a deep sea sailing capacity and some cumulative knowledge of winds and currents in the Atlantic, and construction of vessels designed to stand up to Atlantic conditions. So that makes an eventual trip to the new world much more likely.

Settling Macaronesia definitely means contact with the Caribbean. Maybe the Phoenicians are the best candidate since they were good navigators in Antiquity.