America's fighting women:A search for good POD's.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

I am thinking that an ERA passage by the COngress and signed by Reagan in '82, (It would really give him a surefire bump for 84 and he would know it.) would end up with women allowed in combat on an official basis by, oh, say 1985, or 86, ballpark figure, with would give us women actually fighting officiallially in Panema, Desert shield/storm and somalia. SOmalia could be a problem as you might have one or two KIA or MIA women grabbed by the Somalis and maltreated/desecrated.

Regardless, by the time of 9-11/war on terror you have women fighting as a matter of course on the front line in the Stan and Iraq.

ERA had passed the congress, it was in the state legislatures. The President does not have a part of approving a constitutional amendment. And it went to the states in 1972, so the approval stages from then to 1982.

Now the amendment did not state how long it had for approval, so congress could add time to the approval process. And some states had approved, then revoked approval, so it was either 1 state or 5 states from being approved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

ERA had passed the congress, it was in the state legislatures. The President does not have a part of approving a constitutional amendment. And it went to the states in 1972, so the approval stages from then to 1982.

Now the amendment did not state how long it had for approval, so congress could add time to the approval process. And some states had approved, then revoked approval, so it was either 1 state or 5 states from being approved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment

So 72-82 is about right?

[Orville_third]

Originally Posted by AdA

Russian Flying ace Lily Litvak, instead of dying in action in her Yak 1, lives on to score 48 confirmed individual kills flying Yak 1, 9 and later Yak 3 fighters. At one time she is temporaly posted to the Normandie Niemen (to help conversion to the Yak 3) fighter Regiment, and french pilots help spread her fame in the west. When Nikita Kruchev visits the US Lily is flying the secretery General Tu116 VIP plane. She attends a reception at the white house in full uniform with two HSU stars. Time and Life print cover stories about her life, and the "why not here" debate heats up. JFK promisses to open the AF combat units to women in a controversial speach...
The rest follows.

Oh, it would be an irony if Claire Booth and Henry Luce were to use the Communists as an inspiration...

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Orville_third

Oh, it would be an irony if Claire Booth and Henry Luce were to use the Communists as an inspiration...

Anyone remember Valentina Tereshkova? We didn't use her as inspiration.

[AdA]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

Anyone remember Valentina Tereshkova? We didn't use her as inspiration.

You do realise that the taboo with women in combat units is puting women in a situation were they are expected to kill people, and were by reversing the situation men are expected to kill women? Women in space doesnt add anything to the debate.
Lots of soviet women killed more germans than Lily did, but I don't think the US public in the 50 would respond well to women snipers and Il2 tank busters will never be as romantic as fighters pilots duelling with with FW190s over Stalingrad...
Plus Lily Litvak looked like a girl, not like a tomboy, and that would enhance the public perception that women can be both regular gals and fighters.
Never underestimate the power of prejudice.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by AdA

You do realise that the taboo with women in combat units is puting women in a situation were they are expected to kill people, and were by reversing the situation men are expected to kill women? Women in space doesnt add anything to the debate.
Lots of soviet women killed more germans than Lily did, but I don't think the US public in the 50 would respond well to women snipers and Il2 tank busters will never be as romantic as fighters pilots duelling with with FW190s over Stalingrad...
Plus Lily Litvak looked like a girl, not like a tomboy, and that would enhance the public perception that women can be both regular gals and fighters.
Never underestimate the power of prejudice.

Thinking about it, I must conceed your point, you do make a good one.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

So 72-82 is about right?

Yes, some states were revoking their approval, so 73-74 is probably the best window. I don't know quite what would push it over the top, maybe Ford supporting it strongly, or a different man becomes President. The President does not get a vote, but his bully pulpit is quite useful.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

Yes, some states were revoking their approval, so 73-74 is probably the best window. I don't know quite what would push it over the top, maybe Ford supporting it strongly, or a different man becomes President. The President does not get a vote, but his bully pulpit is quite useful.

I could see Ford talking it up at his wife's behest. Betty Ford was a pistol.

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

I knew about the women you mentioned, but when I say women in combat, mean in decent numbers, enough to really draw notice and give the Iraqi's a problem in postwar negotiations if/when they maltreat the POW's.

How about a woman F-15 pilot shooting down an Iraqi jet, perhaps having air control have other pilots back off to give her a clear shot.

OTL they did something similar, backing off other planes so a Saudi F-15 pilot could shoot down two Iraqi jets.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

How about a woman F-15 pilot shooting down an Iraqi jet, perhaps having air control have other pilots back off to give her a clear shot.

OTL they did something similar, backing off other planes so a Saudi F-15 pilot could shoot down two Iraqi jets.

I could see that. kind of like a Free Throw, for air combat.

[Matt Wiser]

Melissa did not have a choice in making the video, let's put it that way.

The only Americans in Khafji were Marine Recon: they did their job in evading the Iraqis searching for them and calling in both air and artillery strikes. Having a team led by a female Marine, perhaps....Royal Saudi Land Forces and Saudi National Guard actually retook the town.

Forgot about the F-15 engagement: though to be fair, the Iraqi Mirage F-1s were on the boundary between the Navy and CENTAF, and had they turned left prior to making their bomb run, they would've had AIM-54 in their face, as two F-14s were going through final prelaunch proceedures before shooting, and AWACS was not talking to the Tomcats. Anyone could've splashed the Mirages, and that RSAF F-15 flight (there were two Eagles) just happened to be closest to make the intercept, but there were USAF F-15s backing them up, and the two F-14s were about to fire....

[SergeantHeretic]

ALl I know is, if I were a militant religious wingnut intent on using violence to impose my goofy anachronistic dar kages mentality, the most frightening thing I could imagine would be 100 or so militarily trained and equiped and armed women coming for my tuchus.

[Matt Wiser]

It's happened before: in the early days of OEF, there was a female AC-130 FCO (Fire Control Officer) who went by the name of Captain Ally (last name withheld). She became known to the Afghans as "The Angel of Death." She'd be talking to the Taliban and AQ on the radio, telling them about how badly they treated women and girls, that she lived in a town near NYC, and knew people killed on 9-11, and she'd come for payback. Then Spectre opened up.....General Dostum, one of the Northern Alliance generals, sent her flowers, and taunted the Taliban more than once, telling them that the Americans thought they were so beneath contempt that we'd sent our women to fight them. More than once, Ally's AC-130 was overhead, then she'd give her sweet talk, then the 20-mm, 40-mm, and 105-mm did the rest of the talking....

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

It's happened before: in the early days of OEF, there was a female AC-130 FCO (Fire Control Officer) who went by the name of Captain Ally (last name withheld). She became known to the Afghans as "The Angel of Death." She'd be talking to the Taliban and AQ on the radio, telling them about how badly they treated women and girls, that she lived in a town near NYC, and knew people killed on 9-11, and she'd come for payback. Then Spectre opened up.....General Dostum, one of the Northern Alliance generals, sent her flowers, and taunted the Taliban more than once, telling them that the Americans thought they were so beneath contempt that we'd sent our women to fight them. More than once, Ally's AC-130 was overhead, then she'd give her sweet talk, then the 20-mm, 40-mm, and 105-mm did the rest of the talking....

Man, that is just outSTANDing!

[hugh lupus]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

Man, that is just outSTANDing!

Indeed so, just an awesome fighting machine
Getting back to your request .Obviously I know nothing about women in the American armed forces,but I do remember reading about the WRAC's and their role in combat. In the 1970's early 80's there were moves to fully train these women in combat roles,bearing in mind that in any future war especially a NATO versus Warsaw pact one there would be no front line.
The question was raised about the Haugue convention which was to say the least vague about the treatment of women.
The fear was that any women prisioners could be treated differently [i.e worse] than men.
How was this overcome, and would it affect your eventual pod?

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by hugh lupus

Indeed so, just an awesome fighting machine
Getting back to your request .Obviously I know nothing about women in the American armed forces,but I do remember reading about the WRAC's and their role in combat. In the 1970's early 80's there were moves to fully train these women in combat roles,bearing in mind that in any future war especially a NATO versus Warsaw pact one there would be no front line.
The question was raised about the Haugue convention which was to say the least vague about the treatment of women.
The fear was that any women prisioners could be treated differently [i.e worse] than men.
How was this overcome, and would it affect your eventual pod?

Very simple, you simply need look back to the abysmal treatment vistied upon civilian women during the Japanese occupation of the Philipines, and the Former British occupation zones.

Then you point out that in this case whe nthe front ceases to have any meaning, these women will be liable for such treatement regardless.

When there IS no front line, then this kind of outmoded gender squeamishness because not just silly, but possitivly stupid.

[AdA]

The geneva conventions have provisions on the treatment of women. The problem lies in the people who never signed, or cared about them. The provisions are interesting, for example women can be in camps with male guards, under certain conditions, but when subject to disciplinary action the guards involved must be female. Disciplinary action under geneva conventions is usually forced labour.
Most regulations regarding women at war are written within the awareness that there are a lot of sick minds everywhere, even among our ranks...

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by AdA

The geneva conventions have provisions on the treatment of women. The problem lies in the people who never signed, or cared about them. The provisions are interesting, for example women can be in camps with male guards, under certain conditions, but when subject to disciplinary action the guards involved must be female. Disciplinary action under geneva conventions is usually forced labour.
Most regulations regarding women at war are written within the awareness that there are a lot of sick minds everywhere, even among our ranks...

Yes, but most, if not ALL of the modern enemies and potential enemies of the U.S. NEVER SIGNED the Geneva convention, and their only reccognition that it even exists is to insist on it's protection when they are captured by our forces.

This once more shines a light on the simple minded backward idiocy of barring women from combat based on "Somebody might do sum'pin ba ta dem".

A woman in uniform with military training and weapons at her disposal is at no more risk than a woman back in "The world" who stands as good a chance of being robbed or raped or worse.

Read the paper, it happens every day.

That being so, this reduces any objections to the hidebound male quixotic gender bigotry that it is.

Worrying about what might happen to us poor girls isn't the objection at the heart of the matter. The heart of the matter is that these old men and old minded men are scared to death of the final equal level of empowerment this would grant us.

[hugh lupus]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

Very simple, you simply need look back to the abysmal treatment vistied upon civilian women during the Japanese occupation of the Philipines, and the Former British occupation zones.

Then you point out that in this case whe nthe front ceases to have any meaning, these women will be liable for such treatement regardless.

When there IS no front line, then this kind of outmoded gender squeamishness because not just silly, but possitivly stupid.

Yes this makes sense and I agree totally and I guess that this was the attitude that [rightly] prevailed. So was the convention ammended or is it now assumed by all signatories that a combatant is a combatant regardless?
Incidentaly the military base where I work is run by a women in our airforce

[hugh lupus]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

.

Worrying about what might happen to us poor girls isn't the objection at the heart of the matter. The heart of the matter is that these old men and old minded men are scared to death of the final equal level of empowerment this would grant us.

Not all men are the same though