WI The Columbian Expedition was a complete failure?

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Beedok

To try to revive interest her is a nearly finished map of pre-Columbian North America.

This is off to a good start.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Wendell

This is off to a good start.

Here's the reference: http://cpfx.ca/files/NatLangMap.jpg

[Beedok]

Bumping this with a relevant article: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily...224035201.html

[Hnau]

Huh, that's very interesting. So perhaps fishermen from Bristol or the Basque country or elsewhere really had re-discovered Newfoundland before Columbus' voyage?

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Hnau

Huh, that's very interesting. So perhaps fishermen from Bristol or the Basque country or elsewhere really had re-discovered Newfoundland before Columbus' voyage?

I guess so.

[Yelnoc]

Somebody knew something was out there; that is for sure. I wish I had a copy of 1491 handy; that book briefly covered the subject in its look at the Massachusetts Bay tribes. Has anybody else read it?

[Hnau]

Originally Posted by Yelnoc

I wish I had a copy of 1491 handy; that book briefly covered the subject in its look at the Massachusetts Bay tribes. Has anybody else read it?

I have it. It mentions the fact that there's some evidence for pre-Columbian contact there, but Mann never goes out and gives his opinion on whether or not it did happen.

[Hnau]

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...es-mann-text/1

Great article by Charles C. Mann talking about Jamestown and the effect of European colonization on Virginia and the rest of English America. Here, we're starting the Columbian Exchange (Cabralian Exchange?) almost 100 years earlier for the Virginia peoples. One point mentioned here that was interesting is that the tobacco plantations grown by the English settlers devastated the soil of Virginia and forced the natives to migrate further and further to the west in order to feed themselves. The specific use of tobacco helped the English create, well, lebensraum for their colonists. The Spanish won't have Trinidad tobacco to grow and export as a trade good, so that'll give the Amerindians a bit of an edge. But... they are much less politically unified in the 1500s than the 1600s, and they've suffered from disease outbreaks much sooner. And the Spanish will probably be a little more cruel than the English, lets face it.

[Yelnoc]

Originally Posted by Hnau

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...es-mann-text/1

Great article by Charles C. Mann talking about Jamestown and the effect of European colonization on Virginia and the rest of English America. Here, we're starting the Columbian Exchange (Cabralian Exchange?) almost 100 years earlier for the Virginia peoples. One point mentioned here that was interesting is that the tobacco plantations grown by the English settlers devastated the soil of Virginia and forced the natives to migrate further and further to the west in order to feed themselves. The specific use of tobacco helped the English create, well, lebensraum for their colonists. The Spanish won't have Trinidad tobacco to grow and export as a trade good, so that'll give the Amerindians a bit of an edge. But... they are much less politically unified in the 1500s than the 1600s, and they've suffered from disease outbreaks much sooner. And the Spanish will probably be a little more cruel than the English, lets face it.

Excellent article. Mann's point about malaria is particularly relevant to this stage of our timeline. The Carolinas are particularly susceptible to Malaria. So if the Spanish bring Malaria to their Carolina coastal settlement, they could severely damage the native population. However, I think the Spanish are much more likely than the English to pack up shop and leave after not discovering gold. This could potentially give the natives of the eastern seaboard a century, several generations, to build up at least a mild immunity to malaria (and measles, which we have also introduced).

Is there any chance that we could turn the Italian Wars into an even more devastating conflict? Perhaps the delayed introduction of syphilis keeps the European kingdoms fighting for longer, with more devastating results?

[Socrates]

Originally Posted by Hnau

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...es-mann-text/1

Great article by Charles C. Mann talking about Jamestown and the effect of European colonization on Virginia and the rest of English America. Here, we're starting the Columbian Exchange (Cabralian Exchange?) almost 100 years earlier for the Virginia peoples. One point mentioned here that was interesting is that the tobacco plantations grown by the English settlers devastated the soil of Virginia and forced the natives to migrate further and further to the west in order to feed themselves. The specific use of tobacco helped the English create, well, lebensraum for their colonists. The Spanish won't have Trinidad tobacco to grow and export as a trade good, so that'll give the Amerindians a bit of an edge. But... they are much less politically unified in the 1500s than the 1600s, and they've suffered from disease outbreaks much sooner. And the Spanish will probably be a little more cruel than the English, lets face it.

I believe tobacco was planted in Virginia in an attempt to replicate Caribbean style plantations. If the Caribbean hasn't been settled, it's possible the place will be settled by New Englanders using traditional farmsteads moving south, and it may then be politically difficult to impose slave plantations.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Socrates

I believe tobacco was planted in Virginia in an attempt to replicate Caribbean style plantations. If the Caribbean hasn't been settled, it's possible the place will be settled by New Englanders using traditional farmsteads moving south, and it may then be politically difficult to impose slave plantations.

Or Frenchmen, Dutch, Scandinavian or other groups settling.

[lokaloki]

Originally Posted by Hnau

@ Everybody Else
Who's interested in a continuation of this timeline?

I interested
I hope, nothing happend and TL is waiting for updates. Or, maybe... Was a new TL created?

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by lokaloki

I interested
I hope, nothing happend and TL is waiting for updates. Or, maybe... Was a new TL created?

I think it died.

The probably is many of us are not knowledgeable enough on the topic. I for one don't really know much about he pre-columbian americas, but I'm happy to provide ideas once I better understand the setting (and butterflies have begun taking effect).

[Yelnoc]

Oh yeah, forgot about this.

I don't know about continuing because I'm about to start school back up. What we really need is more contributors, or at least people bouncing around ideas, however off the wall they may sound.

[Kaiphranos]

Originally Posted by Hnau

@ Everybody Else

Who's interested in a continuation of this timeline?

Quite a few people, by the numbers: did you know that this is the third-most viewed thread in Pre-1900?

[Hnau]

Originally Posted by Kaiphranos

Quite a few people, by the numbers: did you know that this is the third-most viewed thread in Pre-1900?

... the hell? You've gotta be kidding me! 610,000 views!? That's impossible! What happened?

This thread has more views than Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold? It has more views than "The Bloody Man"? How could that be? It has had only ~200 replies, much less than these other epic timelines that have thousands. Who are you people? I can't believe we are on our way to reaching a million views!

My guess is that the thread's title is attracting attention of lurkers and visitors to the site. It has that element of "popular alternate history", in that most people think of this What-If when they think of alternate history. It must be grouped right there with "What if the South won the Civil War?" and "What if the Nazis won World War 2?" It is a part of history that many people understand or think they understand, unlike Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold which deal in WIs that are much less obvious.

What do you think Beedok, Yelnoc, and others? Should we continue this for the sake of its exploding popularity? I believe the numbers have convinced me.

[Danbensen]

Originally Posted by Hnau

Should we continue this for the sake of its exploding popularity? I believe the numbers have convinced me.

I hope you will. I haven't finished reading the history so far, but when I do, I'll comment.

[lokaloki]

Originally Posted by Yelnoc

What we really need is more contributors, or at least people bouncing around ideas, however off the wall they may sound.

I had some ideas about french pirates I thought about the same POD some time ago.

Originally Posted by Hnau

Should we continue this for the sake of its exploding popularity?

I would be glad to see a continuing.
I will try to help but I'm not sure that I can.

[Yelnoc]

Originally Posted by Hnau

... the hell? You've gotta be kidding me! 610,000 views!? That's impossible! What happened?

This thread has more views than Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold? It has more views than "The Bloody Man"? How could that be? It has had only ~200 replies, much less than these other epic timelines that have thousands. Who are you people? I can't believe we are on our way to reaching a million views!

My guess is that the thread's title is attracting attention of lurkers and visitors to the site. It has that element of "popular alternate history", in that most people think of this What-If when they think of alternate history. It must be grouped right there with "What if the South won the Civil War?" and "What if the Nazis won World War 2?" It is a part of history that many people understand or think they understand, unlike Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold which deal in WIs that are much less obvious.

What do you think Beedok, Yelnoc, and others? Should we continue this for the sake of its exploding popularity? I believe the numbers have convinced me.

Dude, that's intense. Let's do this!

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Hnau

... the hell? You've gotta be kidding me! 610,000 views!? That's impossible! What happened?

This thread has more views than Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold? It has more views than "The Bloody Man"? How could that be? It has had only ~200 replies, much less than these other epic timelines that have thousands. Who are you people? I can't believe we are on our way to reaching a million views!

My guess is that the thread's title is attracting attention of lurkers and visitors to the site. It has that element of "popular alternate history", in that most people think of this What-If when they think of alternate history. It must be grouped right there with "What if the South won the Civil War?" and "What if the Nazis won World War 2?" It is a part of history that many people understand or think they understand, unlike Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold which deal in WIs that are much less obvious.

What do you think Beedok, Yelnoc, and others? Should we continue this for the sake of its exploding popularity? I believe the numbers have convinced me.

Let's keep at it. This is apparently the most popular thing I've ever contributed too. Obviously I have to up my research standards though.