An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion

[Epimethius]

Kickass! Great writing Basileus I'm looking forward to another epic battle.

[Dragos Cel Mare]

We've almost reached 90 Pages.

[Sidheach]

Interesting certainly seeing the potential for some Jeanne de Arc esque female asskickery to happen.

[Avitus]

As a lurker who has been forced to make an account just to post on this thread, I salute you. I'm not overly keen on the LOTR lines, but there were a few that actually worked well, more than worth the bad ones IMO.

I'm quite interested to see the aftermath of this war, although unlike most people here I think it would be interesting to see Shah Rukh leave lasting finger prints on Chinese culture, rather than being just a passing thing.

Also, as long as I'm posting, I have a question for any and all Byzantophiles on this thread. I'm considering writing a Byzantine TL, and I want to know if anyone thinks that the state can be salvaged in the 1450s. I have a vague idea of Mehmed II being betrayed by his Grand Vizier (Candarli Halil Pasha), since they historically hated eachother, with Constantine XI being able to capitalize on the disunity by supporting Candarli, who was not a supporter of Mehmed's policies of aggressive expansion.

[Elfwine]

There's nothing left to salvage by the 1450s. Even if the Ottomans are wiped out, the state has exhausted all but the very last of its resources.

[Avitus]

I understand, but that is not entirely true. There were attempts to retake Greek lands even in the 1440s, and given the level of backwater that Greece was, I would not consider it surprising if a victorious Candarli (who's actions lead me to assume that he believed that the Ottoman state was overextended) offered Athens and its surrounding area to his favorite european vassals. Please note that this wouldn't be a wank, but a best case, post 1450s survival. There would be no reestablshment of the empire beyond their balkan territories, and the empire would be entirely dependant on foreign aid for at least the better part of a century.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Avitus

I understand, but that is not entirely true. There were attempts to retake Greek lands even in the 1440s, and given the level of backwater that Greece was, I would not consider it surprising if a victorious Candarli (who's actions lead me to assume that he believed that the Ottoman state was overextended) offered Athens and its surrounding area to his favorite european vassals. Please note that this wouldn't be a wank, but a best case, post 1450s survival. There would be no reestablshment of the empire beyond their balkan territories, and the empire would be entirely dependant on foreign aid for at least the better part of a century.

Still almost certain it would snuff out the Empire. Maybe there would be a vassal state ruled by the last reigning dynasty, maybe not. But certainly an independent polity of any sort, not likely.

[Avitus]

I suppose I'm less looking for likeliness of the state excelling, than the possibility of, without being snuffed entirely in the 1450s, a gradual return to stability and economic viability. The state would be entirely dependant on being useful to Candarli Halil Pasha and his heirs, but in my envisioned TL Halil's ascent comes at the cost of the Ottoman empire's european territories, which side with Mehmed. The result is that Constantinople becomes a buffer state between the two new hostile Ottoman states, a buffer which Halil supports monetarily because it is cheaper than the alternative (all out war with Mehmed).

[Grouchio]

I was wondering, since it's getting close, what would happen in 1453? Something quite, quite interesting, perhaps?

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Avitus

I suppose I'm less looking for likeliness of the state excelling, than the possibility of, without being snuffed entirely in the 1450s, a gradual return to stability and economic viability. The state would be entirely dependant on being useful to Candarli Halil Pasha and his heirs, but in my envisioned TL Halil's ascent comes at the cost of the Ottoman empire's european territories, which side with Mehmed. The result is that Constantinople becomes a buffer state between the two new hostile Ottoman states, a buffer which Halil supports monetarily because it is cheaper than the alternative (all out war with Mehmed).

That might - just might - work during Candarli's reign, beyond that . . . no.

[Avitus]

Well, for now anyway, just might is good enough for me (better than your average plausability rating for the Byzantines in the 1450s). I should probably not continue this offtopic discussion, but thanks very much for your input.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Avitus

Well, for now anyway, just might is good enough for me (better than your average plausability rating for the Byzantines in the 1450s). I should probably not continue this offtopic discussion, but thanks very much for your input.

No problem. This is probably one of the few scenarios that offer any chance at all, of more than a few years.

[frozenpredator]

Originally Posted by Grouchio

I was wondering, since it's getting close, what would happen in 1453? Something quite, quite interesting, perhaps?

A quiet year? Or Andalusian, Arletian and Hungarian troops saving Constantinople from an combined Venetian, Mamelukan and Tieh siege.


I'm hoping for a quiet year with Every Roman feeling something of on a certain day

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by frozenpredator

A quiet year? Or Andalusian, Arletian and Hungarian troops saving Constantinople from an combined Venetian, Mamelukan and Tieh siege.


I'm hoping for a quiet year with Every Roman feeling something of on a certain day

I vote for absolutely nothing.

Although I say this as someone who had the day it fell to the Latins be the day the eldest son of the current Emperor died, so if something like that is worked in, fine. But having something for 1453 that's just a mysterous feeling feels off.

Even more so than Faramir-as-an-Ottoman-Prince does.

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Originally Posted by Sidheach

Interesting certainly seeing the potential for some Jeanne de Arc esque female asskickery to happen.

It's difficult to get bored in AAoM. Heck, even the update on Tax collection is interesting.

Also, I'm sorry to use this thread for out-of-topic business, but I don't want to triple-post on the OS, OD OOC again.

[Basileus444]

Tapirus Augustus: Technically Mewari is an Ethiopian village, but the principle is the same. And the Mamelukes are asking for trouble, but I think it's realistic what they're doing. They're heavily influenced by the hard-line Hedjazi imams (and the Mamelukes really really really want a quiet Hedjaz-the money brought in by the hajj is worth a lot). Also the quickest way for the government to get stuff fast is to just take stuff from the people.

Epimethius: Thanks.

Sidheach: Joan of Arc is an interesting character. Since TTL didn't have the original, I felt it would be cool to have an ATL version.

Avitus: Thanks. I'm trimming down the number of planned LOTR references. It's harder, but more interesting to try and create the feel of LOTR without cutting-and-pasting of dialogue.

Interesting idea regarding the 1450s. Some suggestions. Look up Tenedos. That island has to be under the control of a Turkish enemy. With Constantinople and Tenedos under the control of non-Turks the Ottoman Empire can be kept apart, potentially indefinitely. And by that point a divided Ottoman state, with both halves glaring at each other, is the only thing making Byzantium not go squish. Another potential idea is to use the Morea as a springboard for a minor Byzantine revival (although to do this you might need to move the POD back a bit so it doesn't get as ravaged as OTL). It's not as defensible as Constantinople, but a Rumelia sandwiched in between John Hunyadi's Hungary, Vlad Dracula's Wallachia, possibly Skanderbeg's Albania, and Anadolu is going to have much bigger fish to fry.

Elfwine: Faramir was Dragos Musat, Prince of Vlachia. I'm only using LOTR pics for members of the Orthodox Alliance, since to use them for Turks, Indians, or Timurids is John Wayne-as-Genghis-Khan territory. And it wouldn't just be a weird feeling.

Grouchio: Something will happen, all right.

frozenpredator: That would be really epic, even for this TL.

Dragos Cel Mare: Thanks. Some sections are just hard to make interesting, but stuff like the economic basis for the Empire's strength is necessary to help maintain plausibility. I'm glad I've been able to keep that out of the boring territory.

[SavoyTruffle]

Top notch writing as always. Looks like Eastern Africa is due for interesting times, just as the battle of the century looms in Asia.

[Sidheach]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

Sidheach: Joan of Arc is an interesting character. Since TTL didn't have the original, I felt it would be cool to have an ATL version.

Well I'm definitely going to keep an eye on her as I'm eager to see just what she ends up doing.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

Elfwine: Faramir was Dragos Musat, Prince of Vlachia. I'm only using LOTR pics for members of the Orthodox Alliance, since to use them for Turks, Indians, or Timurids is John Wayne-as-Genghis-Khan territory. And it wouldn't just be a weird feeling.

Ah, misunderstood/misread/forgot (one of those).

And yeah, what the hell. John Wayne as Genghis Khan doesn't make sense even in the context of picking a white actor to do Temujinn (which doesn't make sense).

At least my mistake could be justified if I tried to rationalize it. That? The only thing I can think of is trying to use Wayne's name.

I wonder. I'm sure it would be a spoiler, but do you plan on the Ottoman dynasty lasting as long as OTL? Just looking for a yes or no here, I'll wait for details, but it would be interesting to see how the East fares without them if they do pass.

[bolhabela]

Oh yes, the next century Hungary will get really good generals. Hunyadi never will be king bu he can still go far