World War III in May 1946

[Hairog]

Originally Posted by Mad Missouri

Not in Hairog's mind. If you disagree with him you're wrong or worse period. Nothing you can say will ever change that fact. If you like this story read it and ignore the comments, that's what I do. If you think about it the story is no worse than Robert Conroy's Red Inferno 1945. Hell that made its author money so will this someday.

Whoa didn't see that coming.

You if anyone should know that's not true but so be it.

[Hairog]

Originally Posted by Mad Missouri

Which is why this story needs a "story only" thread either here or in the Writer's Forum so that people that just want to read the story without all the BS can go there and leave this mess of endless debates/counter-debates behind. I firmly believe if you cut out all the "No it's not... Yes it is" posts and Hairog's generally snotty replies this thread would be a much more readable 100,000 posts not the 300,000 post almost unreadble monster it is now.

Jeepers once again with the personal attack. Stop it please.

I started a story only thread a while ago and forgot about it. I'll find it and start posting again. It's in the Alternate History Writers Forum.

[Life In Black]

Originally Posted by Hairog

Jeepers once again with the personal attack. Stop it please.

I started a story only thread a while ago and forgot about it. I'll find it and start posting again. It's in the Alternate History Writers Forum.

Hairog, Mad Missouri is simply pointing out a fact. Everytime someone here points out something that you don't agree with, you continuously bury your head in the sand, make generalized assumptions about what they say and then accuse the posters of not having read the story. You continuously say you've answered these questions repeatedly, yet when Snake Featherston made valid points about the story, you accused him of not reading the story and that you already answered these questions. You even accused him of his concerns not being "specific enough" for you to discuss. If you answered Snake's points already, where are the post numbers of where you addressed these concerns? Because I don't remember anybody making those points before. If you're not going to continue to discuss things in a calm and rational manner, without resorting to generalized assumptions, and snide remarks about your readerships inability to read or understand, then I have no interest in continuing to follow the story.

Life In Black

[Hairog]

Originally Posted by Life In Black

Hairog, Mad Missouri is simply pointing out a fact. Everytime someone here points out something that you don't agree with, you continuously bury your head in the sand, make generalized assumptions about what they say and then accuse the posters of not having read the story. You continuously say you've answered these questions repeatedly, yet when Snake Featherston made valid points about the story, you accused him of not reading the story and that you already answered these questions. You even accused him of his concerns not being "specific enough" for you to discuss. If you answered Snake's points already, where are the post numbers of where you addressed these concerns? Because I don't remember anybody making those points before. If you're not going to continue to discuss things in a calm and rational manner, without resorting to generalized assumptions, and snide remarks about your readerships inability to read or understand, then I have no interest in continuing to follow the story.

Life In Black

I'm sorry Life in Black but the statement " Everytime someone here points out something that you don't agree with, you continuously bury your head in the sand, make generalized assumptions about what they say and then accuse the posters of not having read the story." is not even close to being true.

Do you have any idea how long it would take to look up the posts where I have answered concerns about the Soviets not being able to supply themselves.

6) Both the WAllies and the Soviets should have issues with logistics, the Soviets much moreso. I do not think in 1946 the Soviets should have an easy time moving supplies through newly-occupied territory in Central Europe. How many troops are tied down garrisoning these countries? What is the Soviet methodology in moving supplies to the front over the gutted terrain of Germany?

Many of Snake Featherston's remarks are comments on what he would do. After reading them again with a fresh perspective I see many of his points. I was thinking of the initial outbreak and the use of the Soviet Deep Battle and their bypassing strong points like crazy and now I realize he probably was talking about Operation Louisville Slugger and the Assaults on the Pyrenees Line. His suggestions are indeed welcome and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[Seraph]

Just reviewing the Scandinavian front...and did you just canceled out Mad Missouri plans for it?

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...postcount=1600
^ This post shows that the Scandinavians just scored a major victory over the Russians on September 20th.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...postcount=1928
^ This post shows that Finland are now about to ask for terms of surrender and then that Soviet paratroopers have cut off Stockholm and other cities on September 14th.

Originally Posted by Hairog

Do you have any idea how long it would take to look up the posts where I have answered concerns about the Soviets not being able to supply themselves.

To be fair, that is why they ask you.
Depending on the question, maybe gather all your notes on common questions for easy answering. A FAQ if you will.

[Hairog]

Originally Posted by Seraph

Just reviewing the Scandinavian front...and did you just canceled out Mad Missouri plans for it?

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...postcount=1600
^ This post shows that the Scandinavians just scored a major victory over the Russians on September 20th.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...postcount=1928
^ This post shows that Finland are now about to ask for terms of surrender and then that Soviet paratroopers have cut off Stockholm and other cities on September 14th.

I did not hear from Mad Missouri for months after repeated PMs. For whatever reason he decided to ignore my PMs and posted here. I was quite taken aback by his posts and have no idea why he choose to communicate that way. You will have to ask him. Quite frankly Mad Missouri's remarks have made me rethink the continuation of this story.

Anyway after not hearing from him after repeated attempts I made the decision to end the Scandinavian fighting as soon as possible. I have no interest in it. No knowledge of it and no time to deal with it. It was never a large part of the story and as long as Dan and Mad Missouri wanted to keep posting it was cool .

RangerElite stepped up to the plate and did a great job of wrapping things up IMHO. The Scandinavian countries never entered into the plans of the JCS and the UK and were considered a write off. Therefore I never gave them much thought myself.

To be fair, that is why they ask you.

Would it not also be fair to ask people who want to comment on the story to actually read the story before commenting?

Depending on the question, maybe gather all your notes on common questions for easy answering. A FAQ if you will.

Good suggestion. I'll see what I can do. Thank you for your comments.

[Seraph]

Originally Posted by Hairog

RangerElite stepped up to the plate and did a great job of wrapping things up IMHO. The Scandinavian countries never entered into the plans of the JCS and the UK and were considered a write off. Therefore I never gave them much thought myself.

I think ignoring it or just as cursory glance(where the situation is more vague) may of been better. Having it just turn into a Soviet curbstomb retcon may have ruffled more feathers in the end. Depending on how it goes and what you have planned, you may end up shooting yourself in the foot if the Allies later find themselves in East Europe and the Baltics is a major theater.

And just saying JCS and UK wrote them off isn't really a good reason for them be curbstomped as they likely may not have accurate information on what Scandinavian can do(Sweden was undergoing an arms build up during WW2). They likely written them off more in the fact that they wouldn't be able to do anything to help them.

Originally Posted by Hairog

Would it not also be fair to ask people who want to comment on the story to actually read the story before commenting?

While your blog make finding story posts easier, that doesn't nothing for finding discussions. Not everything is explained by you in your story.

[Hairog]

Originally Posted by Seraph

I think ignoring it or just as cursory glance(where the situation is more vague) may of been better. Having it just turn into a Soviet curbstomb retcon may have ruffled more feathers in the end. Depending on how it goes and what you have planned, you may end up shooting yourself in the foot if the Allies later find themselves in East Europe and the Baltics is a major theater.

And just saying JCS and UK wrote them off isn't really a good reason for them be curbstomped as they likely may not have accurate information on what Scandinavian can do(Sweden was undergoing an arms build up during WW2). They likely written them off more in the fact that they wouldn't be able to do anything to help them.

I had no desire to mention them at all. My plan was to let someone like Dan or Mad Missouri run their own storyline within the larger parameters of the war. I invite anyone else who has an interest to do the same. I want collaborators and that is why I have posted in this forum.

The fact that Dan started what he could not finish and then Mad Missouri declined to communicate was not planned on. In the final ebook etc. there will be very little mention of Scandinavia unless someone steps up. How about you?

While your blog make finding story posts easier, that doesn't nothing for finding discussions. Not everything is explained by you in your story.

All the questions that irk me are. If not please let me know and I will address it. Thank you for pointing this out and hopefully I can fix it.

[Top hats daily]

About this timeline, I'm mostly irked at how easily Stockholm/Oslo fell, while Helsinki is more understandable, Stockholm is pushing it, and Oslo is pushing it very hard.

Edit: And yes, I did re-read the story.

[RangerElite]

First, so that it is not misunderstood, I turn in my stories to Hairog for his final editorial approval and posting to the forum. When I do, the stories are undated, so that he could insert the appropriate dates. In both of our defense, we both do this for pleasure and there will be times when errors will be made. We do our best to prevent that from happening, but there you go. We actually want people to enjoy the narrative, not just the facts and figures and the "nuts and bolts" of the story. As for the Scandinavian story, without giving anything away, it is not the end of that spur of the story, but more like a temporary pause. Date discrepancy notwithstanding, the final stories detailed Soviet airborne landings in the three remaining Scandinavian capitals, not capitulation of those governments, save maybe Finland. The way I wrote the stories, the Soviet airborne landings were intended as decapitation strikes followed on by communist fifth column actions in these countries. The political realities of communism vs. socialism in Scandinavia would lead to widespread suppression of the communists by even the most hardcore socialists or social democrats, because this subject goes beyond ideology. The Scandinavians have always been mistrustful of the Russians, and had fought vicious wars against the Russians many times before 1814, when Sweden finally declared itself a neutral nation. The Finns, Swedes, Norwegians and Danes will not give up, but they will have to regroup, so there may be more stories coming.

[Hairog]

Originally Posted by Top hats daily

About this timeline, I'm mostly irked at how easily Stockholm/Oslo fell, while Helsinki is more understandable, Stockholm is pushing it, and Oslo is pushing it very hard.

Edit: And yes, I did re-read the story.

Thank you very much for reading the story. We appreciate it.

[Hairog]

The fog had lifted just enough for him to use his flashlight to signal what he assumed was a Soviet sub. His red light was barely visible to someone on shore but readable for his intended target. If the coast was clear he was to pass on a short string of numbers by pointing his flashlight directly East from a certain point on the shore. He had no idea but he suspected that he was not the only one doing this. His handler said that some kind of vessel would be watching and when he got a message passed to him he was supposed to relay that string of numbers to the night on the exact minute past the hour that corresponded to yesterdays date. He would get no response.

He was told that others would receive a response but not he and that would be the check on if his message got through. So far he and the other unknown communist sympathizers were performing as directed. His handler contacted him by what they called a dead drop and it was rotated. I was usually just a newspaper, a wadded up piece of butchers paper etc. just something innocuous that could be written on and a short string of numbers would sometimes be hidden in some other text or sometimes not. The hand writing seemed to be different every time. So far he had only been given and sent 13 messages.

The Home Guard had been given the task of once again patrolling the coastlines. He was a long time member of the Home Guard and hated the Nazis with a passion. He also hated capitalism for the things it had done to his family. His father died in the coal mines that refused to install the safety measures that killed him. He was crushed in a cave in that was easily prevented. His brother was currently suffering from Black Lung disease and would not see another Christmas. To be fair he was a repository of hundreds horrific industrial accidents and safety violations for the union and this tainted his view of the world. It was hard to look at report after report of severed limbs, preventable diseases, horrific working conditions and not be affected by what he saw. He was keeping a list of the names of the people responsible so that when the communists took over they could be prosecuted for their crimes.

And he wanted that day to come. Britain needed a cleansing like France during her revolution. The monarchy and the House of Lords would be the first to lose everything. He did not wish for their lives but he did wish for their being introduced to justice. He belonged to no Communist organizations and was approached after remarks in a pub far from home. He suspected that they had played on his position with the union and had been watching him. He was not outspoken and the Government could hardly lock up or prevent every union member from being in the armed forces or the Home Guard.

The Home Guard presented itself as the best way for him at age 54 to prevent the Nazis' from invading his homeland. It also was the best thing he could do to see that the communists to dealt out justice to those who deserved it. There were a lot of communist sympathizers in Britain than people realized but not many joined the party. Like him they were not that blatantly political and kept their cards close to the vest. He was assured that the Soviets would not invade but just wanted to force Britain into neutrality and to hasten a home grown communist government.

It took him 15 seconds to flash the message and then he continued his rounds. He made it look like he was urinating. Him carrying the flashlight was not suspicious as it was part of this equipment. I was always the longest 15 seconds of his life and now it was over until the next time. He moved on and did his job just like always. He always took a piss at the same spot and always took 15 seconds.

He has no idea what he was sending. Just numbers to him but if he can help to bring the criminals to justice who have put so many families in dire straits by killing and maiming their men then he was glad to do it. Justice for the untouchable aristocrats had to be meted out. He didn't know the right communist terminology but he was all for it. The workers needed to be avenged and united against the aristocrats and the sooner the better. It was time for a change.

[Top hats daily]

So the Home Guardsman is a communist? Oh boy.

[Life In Black]

Any chance we could see some pro-west sympathizers in the Soviet Union doing the same or similar, Hairog? There are plenty of people found all throughout Europe that have absolutely zero sympathy for the Soviet Union and Stalin. Might help balance out the decidedly pro-Soviet perspective of the story.

[TheGingerninja41]

I'm wondering if ITTL this conflict would be called WW3 or be considered a continuation of WW2 after a brief cooldown period.

[Life In Black]

Originally Posted by TheGingerninja41

I'm wondering if ITTL this conflict would be called WW3 or be considered a continuation of WW2 after a brief cooldown period.

How about World War 2.5?

[Hairog]

Originally Posted by Life In Black

Any chance we could see some pro-west sympathizers in the Soviet Union doing the same or similar, Hairog? There are plenty of people found all throughout Europe that have absolutely zero sympathy for the Soviet Union and Stalin. Might help balance out the decidedly pro-Soviet perspective of the story.

I have amply demonstrated my destain for the Soviet system many times and my horror at the actions of Stalin and his henchmen but I have developed a certain respect for the Russian people and in people in general.

My continued belief is that if one large group of people organized in a nation state can accomplish a certain goal or task another group can duplicated that accomplishment. Others seem to think this is not so and maintain that one grouping of people are superior to another.

I maintain it is a matter of leadership and luck. No group is destined to greatness but some obtain it despite themselves.

I'm tying to make an interesting and entertaining story. To me another America First wank is not either so I am looking for plausible ways to write and alternate history and not just a rehash. WWII was a much closer run thing than most Westerner think.

If I had written a fictional story and had one combatant capture and turn into double agents every spy sent into their country you would laugh me out of the room. Yet that is what the British did to every German agent in Britain. It was an amazing feat. The only thing more amazing IOTL is the Soviet penetration of the highest levels of both the US and GB governments and our most secret projects.

How about if I had written that the most expensive and complicated of our weapons systems*just happened to drop*into the Soviet's lap? Yet that is what happened IOTL with the B29. You just can't make this stuff up.

IMHO what I have done to make this an interesting story is nothing compare to reality.

[Life In Black]

Originally Posted by Hairog

I have amply demonstrated my destain for the Soviet system many times and my horror at the actions of Stalin and his henchmen but I have developed a certain respect for the Russian people and in people in general.

My continued belief is that if one large group of people organized in a nation state can accomplish a certain goal or task another group can duplicated that accomplishment. Others seem to think this is not so and maintain that one grouping of people are superior to another.

I maintain it is a matter of leadership and luck. No group is destined to greatness but some obtain it despite themselves.

I'm tying to make an interesting and entertaining story. To me another America First wank is not either so I am looking for plausible ways to write and alternate history and not just a rehash. WWII was a much closer run thing than most Westerner think.

If I had written a fictional story and had one combatant capture and turn into double agents every spy sent into their country you would laugh me out of the room. Yet that is what the British did to every German agent in Britain. It was an amazing feat. The only thing more amazing IOTL is the Soviet penetration of the highest levels of both the US and GB governments and our most secret projects.

How about if I had written that the most expensive and complicated of our weapons systems*just happened to drop*into the Soviet's lap? Yet that is what happened IOTL with the B29. You just can't make this stuff up.

IMHO what I have done to make this an interesting story is nothing compare to reality.

I didn't mean that you sympathized with the Soviets, I meant that most of the viewpoints in this story seem to be from the Soviet perspective or of people who sympathize with the Soviets. I was merely pointing out that the story could use similar viewpoints, but from those who sympathize with the Allies/NATO. Sorry for the confusion.

[Hairog]

Originally Posted by Life In Black

I didn't mean that you sympathized with the Soviets, I meant that most of the viewpoints in this story seem to be from the Soviet perspective or of people who sympathize with the Soviets. I was merely pointing out that the story could use similar viewpoints, but from those who sympathize with the Allies/NATO. Sorry for the confusion.

I understand now. Thank you for the clarification. I guess I'm tired of hearing the story from the Western side all the time. Besides all the fun stuff is happening at the current moment on the Soviet side. Ranger Elite and Tallthinkev are sending me posts as we speak and almost all is from the side of NATO.

Once I decide on the general strategy for the RAF more will coming from their side. I like to write from the side that has the initiative as well as compared to the side that is reacting.

Almost all the history books on any great conflict that I can read are almost always written from perspective of the English or US. I have made it a priority to try and read other counties take on history. If you read about Napoleon in a book written by an Englishman you get a very, very different perspective than one written by a Frenchman in most cases. The same is true of WWII.

I have read many a book from the US/British stand point and even from the German but very few from the Soviet side. I guess I''m bored with the same old stories on the History and Military channel etc. Hopefully it is apparent that I am pushing the envelope and also trying to bring to the general public the huge sacrifice and contribution of the former Soviet people. Not their leaders but the people themselves.

Things will start to heat up for NATO soon.

[Top hats daily]

What happened to Iceland?