Challenge: Make the Mongols invade Western Europe
- Thread starter Onyx
- Start date
The answer is as simple as the challenge itself. Have Ogedei Khan survive that last drinking binge. His hordes had already taken parts of Eastern Europe, and he had given his permission for them to take all of Europe. It was only his death that turned the hordes around, so it stands to reason if he had lived, they'd have kept right on going.
Western Europe is easy. If Ogedei Khan survives, the armies under Subotai and Batu Khan are never recalled. At this point, poland and Hungary are broken, although the fortresses of Hungary need to be reduced. Now, if Batu Khan doesn't need to return to the homeland to deal with the succession, and decides to continue the advance, Europe is in trouble. Mongol scouts had already reached the walls of vienna IIRC, so Germany probably falls if and when the Mongols turn their attentions there. Or, they could head south, through the Balkans and towards the Adriatic. Either way, there isn't very much in the way of coherent resistance opposing the Mongols. I think that king Louis of France was forming an army to oppose them; there will almost certainly be others in, say, Germany. But I don't think that there is anybody left that can keep the Mongols out of Western Europe, or anything that can really check them, save Fortifications (which, given the Mongols' skills, are certainly not insurmountable) and logistics (again, probably not enough to end the conquest).
As for the Byzantines, there was an expedition, flanking the invasion of the 1240s, that invaded romania, so that gets you close. IIRC there was also a raid against the Byzantines by the golden Horde in 1265, so that could be a starting point. or maybe an offshoot of the campaigns of Hulagu in the Middle East, if he is more successful and has a free hand towards conquest.
Once the Mongol rule wanes Roman people will rise and unite again.
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Bavarian Raven
Banned
i doubt they would be able to get that far. europe is thick with castles and fortified cities and around the alps numerous narrow passes and the such. it would be a hard nut to crack, so to speak. and with little pasture land (respectively) it would be hard for the horsemen to survive off the land. by bets are the mongols advance further then they did OTL but are eventually repulsed somewhere in mid to western germany... my 2 cents
There is a lot of arguments that Mongol invasion would fail due to Europe's lack of centralization and suitable feeding grounds for horses.
There's not much that is Eastern Roman at this time. If the Mongols want to invade the Empire of Nicea, they either have to go through the Turks (certainly possible, but probaly also costly - it took Timur Lenk to deal the Turks a real defeat) or the Latin Empire.
One of the problems is the riches. This is two hundred years before Europe really became the center of the world - the mid-east is richer, as is China and India. I tend to agree with Bavarian Raven - somewhere west of the Oder, the possible plunder becomes too little to be worth the resistance.
One of the problems is the riches. This is two hundred years before Europe really became the center of the world - the mid-east is richer, as is China and India. I tend to agree with Bavarian Raven - somewhere west of the Oder, the possible plunder becomes too little to be worth the resistance.
The Mongols have fought against fortified cities before. China had scads of them.
I've heard those arguments. The logistical issues would be problematic for the Mongols, although I'm don't think that they are insurmountable, with proper strategy (which the mongols would have, between the services of Subotai and time to consolidate after the conquest of Hungary (IIRC they had not considered further advances until after the Savo River)). My point is that, if the mongols can find a reason (maybe Batu Khan wants some prestige?) to invade europe, it is possible to invade, or at least raid in force.
Another thing to consider is that even thought Mongols have conquered Rus', they left the the principalities as vassal states instead of annexing them.
What we would probably see if Ogodei lived for few more years is Mongols settling the Pannonian plains, but being content with extracting tribute from the rest of Europe.
Possible implication is Golden Horde going Christian instead of Muslim.
What we would probably see if Ogodei lived for few more years is Mongols settling the Pannonian plains, but being content with extracting tribute from the rest of Europe.
Possible implication is Golden Horde going Christian instead of Muslim.
There are also lots of forests and rivers, not at all light cavalry country. The Mongols can raid as did the Moors, but any battle is going to favour the Europeans because the scruffy sheep herders won't be able to manouvre as they could in open country.
It is worth noting that with the exception of Southern China the Mongols only captured territory that other Steppe nomads in the past, and they used large numbers of Chinese to capture the South. If the Mongols captured Europe it would not be with a Mongol army, only a Mongol led army.
What prestige would there be in conquering Europe? Europe could offer neither the riches nor prestige that the Middle East, China, or India did. Compared to them, it was still a feudal backwater (on the whole).
not really sure, to be honest, aside from being able to claim that he has made vast new conquests. Maybe some european state insults the mongols, and Batu must go west out of pride? Or perhaps he wants a secure flank during a war with the Ilkhanate?
Quite likely, actually. Genghis Khan had already destroyed Persia for just that reason, and it's not like the Europeans of the time could have understood what they were up against. I can easily see that happening again.
I'm pretty sure that that was also one of the reasons for the invasion of Hungary and Poland, though I might be might be mistaken. But there certainly is precedent.
Alex Richards
Donor
Even if, say, Autria, Bavaria, Saxony, Brandenburg and the Po valley are ravaged, that'll still have major butterflies.
I reckon the HRE stays more centralised for defence, a larger Papacy and a slightly later Renaissance.
Alternatively, we could see a mini-renaissance earlier if Byzantium is sacked.
I reckon the HRE stays more centralised for defence, a larger Papacy and a slightly later Renaissance.
Alternatively, we could see a mini-renaissance earlier if Byzantium is sacked.