Was wondering what it would take for say, the Lunex Project to succeed? Or any other plans?
A military base on the Moon?
- Thread starter Enigmajones
- Start date
Sixty tons in lunar orbit? Not with existing hardware. It would have taken the Nova launch vehicle, or something like it- looking at the report, http://astronautix.com/articles/lunex.htm, the amount of hardware they were expecting to get to lunar orbit doesn't add up with the amount of hardware they thought it was going to take to get off the ground; looking at something almost twice the weight of Apollo on 85% of the thrust.
What it would have taken is a hell of a lot more engineering and development, for a start. Also the objective is not entirely clear- it's far more than the minimum required for footprints and flags (or worst case, shuttle-nose-prints- I do not like the direct ascent, direct reentry profile, sounds bloody dangerous), and also far less than would be required for any kind of extended duration habitat, never mind the proposed kind; what are the astronauts supposed to do, dig a moonbase with picks and shovels?
There's a lot of minor detail in the report that looks good, but the overall effect is of every i being dotted, every t crossed, and large sections printed upside down, backwards and in Eurish- the detail work doesn't add up to a whole plan.
I like the lifting body, though. Dyna Soar derivative?
What it would have taken is a hell of a lot more engineering and development, for a start. Also the objective is not entirely clear- it's far more than the minimum required for footprints and flags (or worst case, shuttle-nose-prints- I do not like the direct ascent, direct reentry profile, sounds bloody dangerous), and also far less than would be required for any kind of extended duration habitat, never mind the proposed kind; what are the astronauts supposed to do, dig a moonbase with picks and shovels?
There's a lot of minor detail in the report that looks good, but the overall effect is of every i being dotted, every t crossed, and large sections printed upside down, backwards and in Eurish- the detail work doesn't add up to a whole plan.
I like the lifting body, though. Dyna Soar derivative?
Well, yes, but classic military "hurry up and wait" at orbital freight prices is bloody expensive; far more so than the other obvious second strike option, or the other other obvious second strike option- the other two legs of the nuclear triad.
Which incidentally can play brinkmanship games and political- strategic posturing much more effectively than a handful of medium yield, two day delivery time, have to haul them there before you can fire them back warheads.
A military base on the moon makes bugger-all sense unless you're trying to suppress the rebellious Autonomous Rover Collective; and in that situation they probably built the damn' thing in the first place.
An exploration and survey base, with room to do science and experiment with ISRU, yes, but turning the most obvious object in the night sky into a snipers' nest with exceptionally slow bullets? This is the sort of plan that discredits the agency that produced it- which, apparently, it did.
Which incidentally can play brinkmanship games and political- strategic posturing much more effectively than a handful of medium yield, two day delivery time, have to haul them there before you can fire them back warheads.
A military base on the moon makes bugger-all sense unless you're trying to suppress the rebellious Autonomous Rover Collective; and in that situation they probably built the damn' thing in the first place.
An exploration and survey base, with room to do science and experiment with ISRU, yes, but turning the most obvious object in the night sky into a snipers' nest with exceptionally slow bullets? This is the sort of plan that discredits the agency that produced it- which, apparently, it did.
Good line.
Ja.
Getting whole missiles up there would be fun, too.
edit:
getting missiles that could perform reliably in a vacuum under wild variations in temperatures would be even more fun.
Last edited:
The Lunex Project as in: A 22 person military base on the moon?
1) Development of a Death-Star type laser big enough to blast all enemy GPS satelites out of orbit and precise enough not to fry one of our own by mistake.... And even that one will only be effective against targets half of the time while they are on the moon-facing side of the earth.
2) the serious treat that Dr. Evil, Spectre, Cobra and the Illuminati all want to build such a laser on the moon and then shake the world for ransom... Unless we have an FBI enforcement agency hq up there first to arrest them as soon as they land.
3) Discovery of a whole stack of secret mineral X on the moon so the nation that is first on putting a military base on top of the ore can claim the whole load for themselves.
4) The Tracy Family needing an alternative for the Thunderbird 5 space station as the geosynchronous orbit becomes too crowded. Okay, this will be a one-person base and not strictly military either. But may be, once it is up there, Clive Custler will build a NUMA base next door, just because he can.
Last edited:
trurle
Banned
Everybody is so negative, so i must correct a little
From the technical perspective, the plan of lunar military base was challenging, but not impossible. After 10-15 years, half-dozen freshly dug craters and a hundred men starved to death on Moon, the base could be established. What make it impossible is the lack of any military applications.
Spending amount of resources equivalent for Nimitz-class aircraft carrier for each Moon launch need a really good military merit. Like exporting the alien artefacts, strangelets ore, or olivine with antimatter embedded in the crystal lattice due space-ray bombardment (as ennobee noticed, but in more satirical terms).
Any other semi-realistic merits of moon base?
From the technical perspective, the plan of lunar military base was challenging, but not impossible. After 10-15 years, half-dozen freshly dug craters and a hundred men starved to death on Moon, the base could be established. What make it impossible is the lack of any military applications.
Spending amount of resources equivalent for Nimitz-class aircraft carrier for each Moon launch need a really good military merit. Like exporting the alien artefacts, strangelets ore, or olivine with antimatter embedded in the crystal lattice due space-ray bombardment (as ennobee noticed, but in more satirical terms).
Any other semi-realistic merits of moon base?
trurle
Banned
<added post instead of updating>Everybody is so negative, so i must correct a little
From the technical perspective, the plan of lunar military base was challenging, but not impossible. After 10-15 years, half-dozen freshly dug craters and a hundred men starved to death on Moon, the base could be established. What make it impossible is the lack of any military applications.
Spending amount of resources equivalent for Nimitz-class aircraft carrier for each Moon launch need a really good military merit. Like exporting the alien artefacts, strangelets ore, or olivine with antimatter embedded in the crystal lattice due space-ray bombardment (ennobee say the same, but in more satirical terms though ).
Any other semi-realistic merits of moon base?
The Air Force wsnt the only one indulging in this lunacy. The US Navy also worked up ideas for lunar missions and or base
Well a moon base could include scientific researchers. Lots of possible technology might get developed in a low grav environment. Put a base on the back side of the moon and you get a great place to do astronomic observations. No E/M noise from the Earth.
Also a base on the moon could try to locate lunar ice and mine it for fuel and water.
Also a base on the moon could try to locate lunar ice and mine it for fuel and water.
trurle
Banned
Science on moon is bad idea. Low gravity allows large scale construction, but have not much scientific applications. Also, astronomy is not very profitable. Taxpayers will prefer to have some extra aircraft carriers to punch the noses of Vietnamese instead of doing hell-know-what observatory. Also, IF low-noise radio telescope is to be built, i would opt for heliocentric orbit. Zero gravity to build it light and cheaply, and less delta-v compared to moon (making it even cheaper)
As about ISRU (in-site-resources-utilization), it is unfounded fantasy even with technology of 2015. Actually, post-Apollo abandonment of moon was partly because the obtained mineral samples were outstandingly mineral-poor.
a) Water less than in driest Earth deserts (some permafrost on poles only)
b) Nearly complete absence of any heavy metals (even iron 1:10 of Earth)
c) Nearly complete absence of any volatiles (especially chlorine - a critical resource for industrial operations)
One advantage of a lunar deterrent is that it's fairly hard to use as a first strike weapon, as you'd see it coming a couple days in advance as CaribbeanViking points out. In contrast, Trident and to a lesser extent stealth had significant first strike capability and at least in Soviet eyes threatened the longstanding "balance of terror."
Would you really base a lunar deterrent on chemical rockets though? I would think a mass driver would be more useful. Maybe less reliable/practical, but we're talking about a lunar base here - as they say, in for a penny in for a pound of godless communist bombardment material!
Would you really base a lunar deterrent on chemical rockets though? I would think a mass driver would be more useful. Maybe less reliable/practical, but we're talking about a lunar base here - as they say, in for a penny in for a pound of godless communist bombardment material!
trurle
Banned
One advantage of a lunar deterrent is that it's fairly hard to use as a first strike weapon, as you'd see it coming a couple days in advance as CaribbeanViking points out. In contrast, Trident and to a lesser extent stealth had significant first strike capability and at least in Soviet eyes threatened the longstanding "balance of terror."
Would you really base a lunar deterrent on chemical rockets though? I would think a mass driver would be more useful. Maybe less reliable/practical, but we're talking about a lunar base here - as they say, in for a penny in for a pound of godless communist bombardment material!
May be mass driver is an attractive option, but technology is not ready even today. Think about hurling slugs the weight of at least few tons (to hit ground targets) with a speed at least 2.5 km/s (for direct transfer from Moon to Earth). Th the linear motor technology of 2010 has limit of 0.2km/s for multi-ton projectiles (linear motor car). I am not talking about railguns. Railguns are hurling things at necessary speeds, but their limits are just few hundred grams even in 2015.
With the technology of ~1960, the ground-attack lunar base must have an orbital component.
Purely theoretically:
1) Surface-L1 vehicle with Orion nuclear engine (Orion engine is best with hydrogen, but can use as fuel even rock dust, although with worse ISP ~250 sec)
2) Stockpile of projectiles at L1 point with their own small storable-fuel rocket engines (each with 10 m/s delta-v) - they can fall to Earth by command.
3) Stepherd spacecraft in L1 point (with Orion engine) which manage the unstable orbits of projectiles
4) Moon base which carve projectiles out of bedrock and produce powdered rock to fuel the Orion engines.
In this case, you do not need an advanced materials processing on moon or any non-existent technologies. But the cost will still be debilitating.
For example, delivering a projectile motors to L1 will cost ~3 mln. USD of 2010 epoch per each 10-ton projectile. By comparison, this is the cost of 3 nuclear warheads or 0.2 ICBM. And each projectile is just 130 tons TNT equivalent.
So bang/bucks for lunar military base: <0.043 kT/M$
(will be much worse if base costs and moon-to-L1 costs are added)for nuclear bomb (with 80kT warhead): 80kT/M$
For ICBM (MIRV-5 by 80kt): 27 kT/M$
That start in 1950s
with Study about use of Space by Military, the analyst conclude that who get to Moon first and claim it, could control Earth fate from there.
either for reconnaissance or Strike on enemy from moon.
in wake of that study the US military start series of Military base project on Moon
USAF Project LUNEX
USArmy Project HORIZON
USNavy SLV
USMarines there rumors they also study it, but is unclear if that true
Next to that USAF working on Project Orion for nuclear power Battleships with each 1500 Warheads on board.
While USAF and USArmy focus on Base infrastructure, they keep quiet about it's Mission.
in all probability it would be installation of counterstrike Warheads and reconnaissance hardware on Moon.
The Moon offers several advantage:
-The Moon is far away, strike force need 3 to 5 day to get the Moon, enough time for Lunar Base to shoot them down with interceptor missile.
-Use of Nukes on Lunar surface is less effective because lack of Atmosphere there and Lunar Base are dig deep in Lunar ground.
-Do lower gravity the Warhead can be launch with smaller Rockets as ICBM used on Earth.
The Moon big disadvantage, you need a very big launch rocket to get hardware on Moon surface.
LUNEX went this way by planning Large Modular Launch Vehicle for direct landing
HORIZON went with Saturn I and II with Earth orbit Rendezvous then to Moon.
in End the grandiloquently plans hit a huge Wall, That of President John F. Kennedy and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara.
The two were Horrified about this Projects and Worst ones, like Doomsday weapons the Pentagon had in Mind.
in end Civilian NASA got Apollo Program USAF and USArmy got nothing because McNamara "clean out the stable" at Pentagon.
but in end of 1970s there were a Revival of military Lunar Base under MX ICBM project
one of deploy option next Tunnel network or deep ocean floor was put them on Moon.
Again this time President Ronald Reagen drop all the ideas, for simpler MX deployment in Harden Silos...
with Study about use of Space by Military, the analyst conclude that who get to Moon first and claim it, could control Earth fate from there.
either for reconnaissance or Strike on enemy from moon.
in wake of that study the US military start series of Military base project on Moon
USAF Project LUNEX
USArmy Project HORIZON
USNavy SLV
USMarines there rumors they also study it, but is unclear if that true
Next to that USAF working on Project Orion for nuclear power Battleships with each 1500 Warheads on board.
While USAF and USArmy focus on Base infrastructure, they keep quiet about it's Mission.
in all probability it would be installation of counterstrike Warheads and reconnaissance hardware on Moon.
The Moon offers several advantage:
-The Moon is far away, strike force need 3 to 5 day to get the Moon, enough time for Lunar Base to shoot them down with interceptor missile.
-Use of Nukes on Lunar surface is less effective because lack of Atmosphere there and Lunar Base are dig deep in Lunar ground.
-Do lower gravity the Warhead can be launch with smaller Rockets as ICBM used on Earth.
The Moon big disadvantage, you need a very big launch rocket to get hardware on Moon surface.
LUNEX went this way by planning Large Modular Launch Vehicle for direct landing
HORIZON went with Saturn I and II with Earth orbit Rendezvous then to Moon.
in End the grandiloquently plans hit a huge Wall, That of President John F. Kennedy and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara.
The two were Horrified about this Projects and Worst ones, like Doomsday weapons the Pentagon had in Mind.
in end Civilian NASA got Apollo Program USAF and USArmy got nothing because McNamara "clean out the stable" at Pentagon.
but in end of 1970s there were a Revival of military Lunar Base under MX ICBM project
one of deploy option next Tunnel network or deep ocean floor was put them on Moon.
Again this time President Ronald Reagen drop all the ideas, for simpler MX deployment in Harden Silos...
a purely military base on the moon seems to be rather pointless... what's the purpose of it? A base on the moon for research or as a way point for launching explorer vehicles going to other planets makes slightly more sense, but I'd think you could do all of that cheaper right here on Earth...
Off course it's pointless if Only use is to strike back on Enemy if he attack the Motherland
the Crew will do other stuff like maintain the Nuclear strike hardware,
Survey the Lunar surroundings for enemy activity and also conduct research.
And this will be official cover story for public, its USAF research station
Not new USAF made that cover story for Manned Orbital Laboratory, actually a Manned reconnaissance satellite.
Interesting:
Stanley Kubrick 2001: a Space Odyssey feature also Military on Moon.
In huge Moon Base in Claudius crater. in a cut scene it show also it's a Colony!
behind Dr Floyd and two persons right are Two Military in blue uniforms !
they show up in Movie in Conference room, here partly behind Dr. Floyd
From the Wiki article cited above for Lunex.
7.5B$ for a 21 man base? I'd ask what they were smoking, but clearly they just didn't have the remote approximation of a clue.
Suppose they officially created the program. Then a few years in, as the cost projections rise by an order of magnitude or so, the project is cancelled.
LUNEX was hopeless naive in program schedule and cost
1965 launch of First manned Lunex space craft with 3 USAF pilots
1966 first Lunar orbit with Lunex space craft
1967 landing USAF pilots on Moon, 6 year after Program start !!!
The needed the J-2 engine and bigger M-1 engine for there 'Space Launching System'
alone R&D problems on J-2 delayed it first flight to February 1966
oh by the way din't i mention yet, that USAF had not a clue what for Heat shield and aerodynamic form to use for Lunex space craft ?
On cost, the Apollo program for NASA was total around 24B$ that include R&D on hardware, building infrastructure, 12 Gemini mission and 17 Apollo Mission
with the leftovers were used on Skylab and ASTP.
LUNEX had cost under USAF at least twice even triple of Apollo Program 48~72b$ in 1970 dollars.
was that not the cost of Vietnam war ?