DBWI-P.1154 Fizzles

So, the HMS Britannia was commissioned today, becoming the largest aircraft carrier built for the Royal Navy to date. Britannia is to be carry the Hawker Siddeley Sea Fury II, the latest in a family of supersonic V/STOL fighters that began in 1968 with the Hawker Siddeley Rapier.

Here's an interesting thought experiment: what if the P.1154, the prototype on which the Rapier was based, was rejected by the Royal Navy?
 
Then it's possible that Supersonic VTOL could have been strangled in its cradle. The success of the Rapier demonstrated that it was possible to combine the operational flexibility of a subsonic S/TOL craft with the speed and strike depth of a supersonic machine. The Rapier granted the RAF/FAA a multi role ability that is quite unmatched in NATO, a bomber with the manoverabilty of a fighter, speed of an interceptor and the lingering potential of a dog fighter.

Luath
 
Here's an interesting thought experiment: what if the P.1154, the prototype on which the Rapier was based, was rejected by the Royal Navy?

I can't imagine the Royal Navy being so stupid as to cancel the P.1154. Please remind us how the obstacles to practical service use were removed. I can't seem to remember.
 
Also, HMS Victorious might have been retired earlier. IOTL, the advent of the Rapier allowed her to remain in service until 1981 after being converted to handle S/VTOL aircraft.
 
I can't imagine the Royal Navy being so stupid as to cancel the P.1154. Please remind us how the obstacles to practical service use were removed. I can't seem to remember.

IIRC, the main obstacle was that McDonell Aircraft tempting the RN with the F-4. However, Hawker Siddeley successfully lobbied against purchasing the Phantom.
 
IIRC, the main obstacle was that McDonnell Aircraft tempting the RN with the F-4. However, Hawker Siddeley successfully lobbied against purchasing the Phantom.
There was rather more to it than that - getting plenum-chamber burning to actually work was the stuff of nightmares, and was the reason Bristol were bought out by Rolls-Royce in November 1965 - they were on the verge of bankruptcy. It left Rolls seriously weakened, however, and was a major contributor to the Wilson government having to briefly nationalise them in 1968.
In the long run that has been a very good thing - there are dark rumours in Derby about what might have happened with the RB.211 if Rolls hadn't been nationalised and had Stanley Hooker imposed on the board as Technical Director - but to pretend that competition from the F-4 was the biggest problem the P.1154 faced is fantasy. The reality is that it was one of those projects which was always one step away from disaster, and getting it into service as they did was a major achievement.
 
If it was cancelled, or if the Royal Navy rejects it?

If the Royal Navy had rejected it, the RAF might actually get the cheap-and-simple Hunter replacement they were looking for. I'm sorry, but getting down in the weeds with guns, bombs and rockets does not need a big, heavy, two-seat interceptor with long-range radar. But having it killed the Anglo-French variable geometry strike fighter program that would have been just what the RAF needed to complement its' Merlins. Thank god Healey had the sense to ditch TSR.2 and just order F-111s instead. Instead of a proper ground attack fighter and the AFVG, we got the Rapier trying to do both, and doing it badly.

Yes, that would mean that the Navy would have to fly Phantoms, but you don't give up anything in capability, and I'm far from convinced that STOVL brings that much to the Navy.
 

Archibald

Banned
One great loser would be the US Marine Corps. They really, really like their F-135s - rebranded F-35 after 1962 (F-135 was no more absurd than F-111 or F-117 , but F-35 is worse - where are the F-24 to F-34 ?)
More seriously, the F-135 provided USMC with a mach 2 fighter-bomber that could fly from the Iwo Jima class LPH and later from the LHAs. This gave- and still give - USMC tremendous power in Congress against the USN that usually wanted USMC fixed-wing air arm to disapear, arguing that supercarriers with catapults can do the job.

It should be reminded that the Navy F/A-18 Hornet was very nearly cancelled in 1980 when Senator Proxmire questionned its usefulness when compared to the USMC F-35 Rapier - the latter doesn't need a supercarrier after all ! The Rapier performance helped Carter winning the CVV battle against the USN admirals (although Reagan 700-ship navy program re-established nuclear supercarriers in the mid-80's - the only two CVV ever build were happily scrapped after the end of Cold War in 1992 - a crying shame since Australia had shown interest in one of them, but the USN just wanted these ships trashed to the scrap heap of history)

For all their flaws USMC F-35s performed pretty well during the evacuation of Saigon in 1975.

USMC however paid a very high human cost to that independance from the USN

More generally, the Rapier speed of mach 2 is a powerful psychological (if not magical) number. A subsonic machine (think of the P.1127 low-cost alternative once envisaged as backup to the Rapier when PCB ran into teething issues) couldn't have matched such apeal.
Seriously, can you imagine aircraft carriers, even small, defended by subsonic interceptors - no more faster than a WWII Gloster Meteor ? Even with Sparrow- or AMRAAM missiles such machine would be a loser in any air battle (plus the drag of the missiles would slow it even more - bah) Not only speed, but also ceiling is important in A2A combat.
Such is the traction of the Rapier supersonic speed, it made 20 000 tons carriers viable alternatives to the much more expensive supercarriers. Just ask the Spanish and Italian and Greek navies about it.

I can tell you the French Aeronavale seriously vacillated in the mid-70's - Rapiers flying out of the 20 000 ton PH-75 were considered a viable candidate to replace the 35 000 tons Clemenceaus. In the end the Charles de Gaulle was build as a much improved, 50 000 ton Clemenceau (nuclear propulsion was considered but rejected as unpractical) As the Crusaders faded into utter obsolescence in the 1990's (!) Rapiers were once again considered but (as usual) Dassault had the final word and the Rafale M was born.
 
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The Rapier wasn't a perfect plane, but it scared the daylights out of the Soviets, mostly because it operated out of highly-dispersed sites, which meant the Soviet tactic of using 100-150 kT nuclear weapons to knock out every airfield with a 9,000 foot runway west of the Iron Curtain wasn't going to work (how are you going to knock out defending air forces when the Rapier could take off from any short stretch of flat land?).

Small wonder why the Russians poured essentially unlimited funds to get the Yakovlev Yak-141 into service by middle 1988, because they too knew that the best way to save an air force was to make planes that could take off from a short stretch of flat land.
 
If it was cancelled, or if the Royal Navy rejects it?

If the Royal Navy had rejected it, the RAF might actually get the cheap-and-simple Hunter replacement they were looking for. I'm sorry, but getting down in the weeds with guns, bombs and rockets does not need a big, heavy, two-seat interceptor with long-range radar. But having it killed the Anglo-French variable geometry strike fighter program that would have been just what the RAF needed to complement its' Merlins. Thank god Healey had the sense to ditch TSR.2 and just order F-111s instead. Instead of a proper ground attack fighter and the AFVG, we got the Rapier trying to do both, and doing it badly.

Agreed. The Rapier was an excellent air-superiority fighter, as proved in the Falklands, but terrible in the attack role. It wasn't until the introduction of the Rapier's successor, the Hawker Siddeley Goshawk, in 1986 that the Fleet Air Arm got a true multirole fighter.
 
To be fair the FAA still had the Buccanniers available for strike missions until the old Ark Royal finally conked out returning to the UK after the Falklands war. I don't think anyone who saw her towed into Plymouth by three Leander Class Frigates will ever forget it.
 
To be fair the FAA still had the Buccanniers available for strike missions until the old Ark Royal finally conked out returning to the UK after the Falklands war. I don't think anyone who saw her towed into Plymouth by three Leander Class Frigates will ever forget it.

It really says something that the elderly Victorious was able to make it home with no problem while "Park Royal" made it three-fourths of the way before her boilers quit.
 
It really says something that the elderly Victorious was able to make it home with no problem while "Park Royal" made it three-fourths of the way before her boilers quit.
In fairness, VICTORIOUS's boilers were the best part of a decade newer than ARK ROYAL's. It would probably have been cheaper to scrap her in the 1950s than pay for that rebuild. And again in the 1980s.

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed. Jack Tar is damn good at his job. But imagine what would happen if we actually gave him modern equipment!
 
In fairness, VICTORIOUS's boilers were the best part of a decade newer than ARK ROYAL's. It would probably have been cheaper to scrap her in the 1950s than pay for that rebuild. And again in the 1980s.

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed. Jack Tar is damn good at his job. But imagine what would happen if we actually gave him modern equipment!

Actually, Victorious got her second refit in the early 1970s. We no longer needed her in the 1980s thanks to the new Taranto-class light carriers.

Still, it was sad to see the ship that played a part in sending Bismarck to a watery grave go. At least we can still visit her in Liverpool today.
 
I wonder what the ghosts of her wartime crew thought last week when the new German LHD Graf Zeppelin moored alongside her.
 
The Rapier wasn't a perfect plane, but it scared the daylights out of the Soviets, mostly because it operated out of highly-dispersed sites, which meant the Soviet tactic of using 100-150 kT nuclear weapons to knock out every airfield with a 9,000 foot runway west of the Iron Curtain wasn't going to work (how are you going to knock out defending air forces when the Rapier could take off from any short stretch of flat land?).

Small wonder why the Russians poured essentially unlimited funds to get the Yakovlev Yak-141 into service by middle 1988, because they too knew that the best way to save an air force was to make planes that could take off from a short stretch of flat land.

Except that those funds weren't unlimited. The Soviet economy was already teetering from the Suslov years. The massive military spending of the Yanayev regime hastened the Soviet Union's death spiral, leading to its violent collapse in the autumn of 1990.
 
Except that those funds weren't unlimited. The Soviet economy was already teetering from the Suslov years. The massive military spending of the Yanayev regime hastened the Soviet Union's death spiral, leading to its violent collapse in the autumn of 1990.

However, while the Yak-141 did not serve in large numbers in Soviet AF service, the plane was licensed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India, where licensed production started in 1990 for both the airplane and the engine. The plane proved itself during the Kargil War between India and Pakistan in 1999, where pilots used the swiveling nozzle of the engine to out-turn Pakistani AF fighters rather easily. The Indian AF now fields 180 of these planes, and production of a new variant with much more modern radar and an even better engine will start in the late summer of 2016.
 
I wonder what the ghosts of her wartime crew thought last week when the new German LHD Graf Zeppelin moored alongside her.

The current Graf Zeppelin certainly got farther than her predecessor, which was hurried into service after Victorious and Ark Royal avenged HMS Hood by sinking Bismarck and showed that carrier-based aircraft could trump battleships. The abortive attack on Scapa Flow in February 1942 only showed how not to make an attack on an anchorage.
 
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