English language without norman invasion?

[Simreeve]

Originally Posted by Thande

An oft-made claim (now thought to be somewhat exaggerated, but still rooted in reality) is that there are less than 20 words in English that are Celtic imports. Mostly they describe geographic things that the Anglo-Saxons weren't already familiar with (being from Flatland) such as "crag" and "cairn".

Does that only count words that entered English directly from the various Celtic languages?
Some of the 'French' words that came over here, such as "mutton", are actually Celtic (Gallic to be precise) in origin.

[FleetMac]

Originally Posted by Simreeve

Does that only count words that entered English directly from the various Celtic languages?
Some of the 'French' words that came over here, such as "mutton", are actually Celtic (Gallic to be precise) in origin.

Probably; otherwise, the percentage of Germanic vocabulary words would jump by a substantial amount due to use of French words derived from the languages of either the Frankish tribes or (more significantly) the Norsemen who were the ancestors of the Normans.

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by FleetMac

The Professor-

How do you think the fricative sounds of *English will evolve? Will we see a loss of certain phonemes as IOTL, or will they be preserved?

Which ones since I believe I already mentioned them?

[altwere]

I think that it is the sound that was spelled as gh in the middle of words and is currently spelled as ch in german and is still found in Scottish as in the ch in Loch. I'm not sure when it was last in standard English, but I would guess that it was sometime during the 1500's.

[FleetMac]

Originally Posted by altwere

I think that it is the sound that was spelled as gh in the middle of words and is currently spelled as ch in german and is still found in Scottish as in the ch in Loch. I'm not sure when it was last in standard English, but I would guess that it was sometime during the 1500's.

Pretty much; whether the [ɣ], [x] or [ç] phonemes have been preserved, and in what form (spelling and grammar wise). As for its loss in OTL English, I blame the writers of Shakespeare's era.

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by FleetMac

Pretty much; whether the [ɣ], [x] or [ç] phonemes have been preserved, and in what form (spelling and grammar wise). As for its loss in OTL English, I blame the writers of Shakespeare's era.

Ah,

Well palatal-c I see as mostly developing into "tch" as OTL and being transcribed Č č. It will also likely have a similar diffentiation between words of the same root: speak, speech etc. I say similar as Frisian has developed that way as has some parts of Dutch (cf -tje and -kje)

Similarly CG will become "dge" or G - Ğ ğ

Internal [x] I see as being assimilated to H. There are already some signs of it in the dialectal spellings of night (nigt, niht) etc. How it is pronounced could a local issue.

[FleetMac]

Originally Posted by The Professor

Ah,

Well palatal-c I see as mostly developing into "tch" as OTL and being transcribed Č č. It will also likely have a similar diffentiation between words of the same root: speak, speech etc. I say similar as Frisian has developed that way as has some parts of Dutch (cf -tje and -kje).

Any reason why "Č č" in particular? I'm merely not aware whether it was an English invention, or imported from the mainland. Other than that, I'm in agreement.

Originally Posted by The Professor

Internal [x] I see as being assimilated to H. There are already some signs of it in the dialectal spellings of night (nigt, niht) etc. How it is pronounced could a local issue.

TBH I imagine it'd end up adopting similar conventions to that used in Lallans/Scots; placement within the word determining the pronunciation, and whether it's adjacent to certain consonants (hw-, hr-, etc.)

[TaylorS]

The English "ch" sound is actually an innovation shared between English and Frisian that developed around AD 700

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Frisian_languages

Proto-West-Germanic *ik* "I" becomes:

/ɪʧ/ > /iː/ > /aɪ/ in English
/ɪk/ in Low German
/ɪx/ > /ɪç/ in High German (then /ɪʃ/ in some dialects)

English "cheese" vs. High German "Käse"

[Shogun]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

As a place to attack or a place to ignore?

To ignore.

[Kidblast]

Originally Posted by Æsir

Perhaps one could look at West Frisian (English's closest living relative on the continent) for how it would turn out. For example, in this clip (Allegedly a shibboleth used by Frisian freedom fighter Pier Gerlofs Donia to distinguish Frisian captives from Dutch and German ones), mostly the first part, you can tell how close the languages are even today. IIRC it's said that Frisian and English mariners on the North Sea found each other's language mutually intelligible into the 19th century.

Butter, bread and green cheese, who can't say them is against the Fries?

[Umbric Man]

The first part, talking of the foods...CHRIST, say just that and I'd assume the Frisian spoke fluent English!

[altwere]

In an Anglo-Dutch timeline would Friis be concidered an English dialect?

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by FleetMac

Any reason why "Č č" in particular? I'm merely not aware whether it was an English invention, or imported from the mainland. Other than that, I'm in agreement.

I see it as evolving from a "superscript"-e over c later becoming more crownlike as it develops and then becoming associated with the similar Eastern European version.
Basically similar to how the umlaut evolved - in fact a plausible alternative would be c-umlaut.

(admittedly I just chose it initially for simplicity and that it looks less French )

Originally Posted by FleetMac

TBH I imagine it'd end up adopting similar conventions to that used in Lallans/Scots; placement within the word determining the pronunciation, and whether it's adjacent to certain consonants (hw-, hr-, etc.)

Hmm yes.

[TaylorS]

Originally Posted by Umbric Man

The first part, talking of the foods...CHRIST, say just that and I'd assume the Frisian spoke fluent English!

Were it not for English's re-lexification with Old French words we would be able to understand Frisian very easily. It's really creepy.