WW3 in In The Presence of Mine Enemies-Possible Spoilers

spoilers




Unless I missed something- WWII ended in the IPME timeline with Germany defeating both Britain and Russia.Apparently Japan was also undefeated,so I'm guessing no Pearl Harbor in this TL? America stays out of the war and apparently doesnt develop the nuclear bomb. WWIII happens around 1970 and involves the German (and Japanese?) invasion and attack on the United States ( Canada,Central America?). Germany is apparently sucessful,after nuking several cities (including Washington D.C and Philadelphia) and occupies the United States ( with Japan?).The capital is re-established at Omaha ,Nebraska and giant ghettos are established at New York and Los Angeles where millions of Blacks and Jews are murdered as the Holocaust is brought to the United States. The United States as of 2010 is a defeated country who has to send a yearly tribute to the Germans.But its treated better than places like Russia,Poland and the Middle East( where the Germans have made the Italian rulers commit genocide against Arabs) as its population is mainly "Aryan". This is about all I could glean from the book and I know that HT doesnt like fanfic but what about specualtion in regard to it since we have alot of unanswered questions ? In this case speculation about the state of the United States after WWII and what happened to it in WWIII.I assume there was a truncated "cold war" between Nazi Germany and the US.It apears in this TL however than the Nazis were always in the dominate position.What was the US like politically and socially during these years? I imagine that Nazi viepoints ,especially regarding race,gained alot of acceptance in the US.When WWIII happened there was probably alot of collaboration,especially in Dixie,with the Nazis when it came to visiting the Holocaust upon Blacks and Jews(and Gays,Hispanics,Native Americans,social liberals etc etc?) What was the conduct of WWIII in this TL and how did the United States face ultimate defeat? Was the war costly for Germany or was it a walk? Anything else?
 
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I'm not so sure the US would be treated so well. I can remember reading a view of Hitler's second book (never published until recently), and he hated the US only a little less than Russia. He regarded most of the population as mongrels. With his typical racial mindset, anyone not of german/teutonic ancestry in the US would likely get the short end of the stick. Along with the blacks, hispanics, chinese, and jews, anyone of mixed race would be tossed into the gas chambers (and there are a lot of mixed race people in the US). I suppose Hitler's allies in the Axis would cause him to leave the Italians and Japanese in the US alone....
 
Nazis vs Japs

Why has the Nazi-Jap alliance lasted so long in this frightening ATL ? Wouldn't the Germans after they'd defeated their main opponents during WWII then fall out with the Japs and tear down the alliance they'd built with this 'inferior' 'Asiatic' race ASAP ?
 
From: "F. Michael Zimmerman" <fmz1@c...>
Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 11:12 am
Subject: Re: WW3 in In The Presence of Mine Enemies-Possible Spoilers



It is also not clear what the situation is in Latin America. A
consistent application of Nazi ideology would require the
depopulation of the Americas south of the Rio Grande. That would be
a big task to accomplish with gas chambers. Slave labor would be
more appealing. And even that would require the active cooperation
of a Nazified USA.

The plundering of Latin America would make a lot of sense of the
question of tribute. Berlin would want to make sure that the USA
does not acquire the resources to become a rival Nazi state (as China
became a rival Communist state to the USSR in OTL). And there would
be Americans who, although racists of the worst stripe, would have
their hopes set on precisely that! They might be racists, but they
ARE Americans. They might be grateful to the Nazis for the ethnic
cleansing, but they would aspire to the reestablishment of home rule
in an Aryanized USA!

A similar situation would probably prevail in Africa. There, the
collapse of the European colonial powers and the re-taking of the
German colonies would force the Germans into cooperation with fellow
Aryans in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) and South Africa. Official sanction
for the extermination of the nonwhite population coupled with the
resulting access to the riches of Africa could well have led to the
beginnings of a rival Aryan power on that continent.
 
- One question: Does it say when Hitler dies?-

No but it says that Himmler,who lead after Hilter,died in 1985. He probably made it into the 1950's-maybe 1960's at the latest(Parkinson's diesese right?)
 
---There, the
collapse of the European colonial powers and the re-taking of the
German colonies would force the Germans into cooperation with fellow
Aryans in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) and South Africa---

The book mentions a South African fascist state allied with the GGR .It probably took apartheid to the next level in certain cases.
 
Ethnic makeup of Latin America

Read 'Coal to Cream', by a black American in Latin America. Some nations like Argentina are pretty much Italian and Spanish, some mixed, like Costa Rica, Chile, and Venezuela, some very black like Brazil and Panama, some very Indio like Bolivia, Paraquay, Peru, Guatamala, and Mexico.
I think Hitler would have ignored 'mongrel' cultures under the racist assumption that they weren't a military threat. Massacres of weak populations in case of rebellion and maintenance of a jannissary force would be his policy. Perhaps he would simply leave it up to the Romance cultures of Wallonia, Bretonia, Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, etc, to do the dirty work in exchange for military 'protection'.
He did not want Germans interbreeding with other 'races', and he did not want his troops coming home with tropical diseases, and that's about it. The native populations would be maintained at a level sufficient to grow tropical crops, log the forests, and work in the mines. Probably about an initial 90% massacre level and an attritional policy or forcing the native chiefs to send half their young men to work as slave laborers as a way of maintaining control of the rest. Most would die from disease and ill treatment. That is the imperial policy the Eurpean powers (and Liberia) used before the first world war.
 
---I think Hitler would have ignored 'mongrel' cultures under the racist assumption that they weren't a military threat. Massacres of weak populations in case of rebellion and maintenance of a jannissary force would be his policy. Perhaps he would simply leave it up to the Romance cultures of Wallonia, Bretonia, Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, etc, to do the dirty work in exchange for military 'protection'.
He did not want Germans interbreeding with other 'races', and he did not want his troops coming home with tropical diseases, and that's about it.----

The book specifically says that the Nazis made Italy commit genocide on the Arabs in areas Italy controlled in the Middle East.It also says that the Greater German Reich directly incoporated "Aryan" areas into the Reich-Great Britian,Belgium,Netherlands,Denmark,Scandanavia and even India.The United States,like France and Russia was only a subject nation and was also subjected to the Nazi racial policies-most blacks and Jews were killed. There is no doubt that Hitler viewed "mongrels" as weak but didnt hard Nazi ideology consider them a greater threat in some ways than "inferior races" ? Therefore American( and central and south American) blacks as "mongrels" would be eliminated or sterlized at the very least as was the small black population in Germany OTL.
 
---Why has the Nazi-Jap alliance lasted so long in this frightening ATL ? Wouldn't the Germans after they'd defeated their main opponents during WWII then fall out with the Japs and tear down the alliance they'd built with this 'inferior' 'Asiatic' race ASAP ?---


The book implies that as of 2010- Japan is the only other world power but not as strong as Germany.It really doesnt say if Germany and Japan are allies or not.The book refers to Japanese tourists snapping pictures in Berlin several times.It also has 2 of the main characters visit a Japanese restaurant called Admiral Yamamto's a few times ( as well as an American 1 called the Greasy Spoon).There are also references to Japanese computers being cheap but almost as good as German models-better operating system in some ways. However it also says they have "missiles" pointed at each other and would devestate each other in a war.It doesnt actually say these are nuclear missiles but its implied. Perhaps sometime between WW2 and WW3 a disgruntled and greedy Nazi nuclear scientist gave the Japanese nuclear weapons. So the fact that the Japanese could now destroy Berlin or Munich meant that even though the Germans didnt like them they wouldnt take the risk of doing anything about it.
 
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Japanese nuclear technology

Michael E Johnson Perhaps sometime between WW2 and WW3 a disgruntled and greedy Nazi nuclear scientist gave the Japanese nuclear weapons. So the fact that the Japanese could now destroy Berlin or Munich meant that even though the Germans didnt like them they wouldnt take the risk of doing anything about it.[/QUOTE said:
The Japanese nuclear program had good theoretical understanding of nuclear weapons and isotope separation. Without a war with the US they would have gone nuclear earlier than in OTL. If the Germans concentrated on a war with the US and ignored Japan till later, the Japanese would have had a deterrent nuclear force and a dispersed industrial base all over Asia. Actually, depending on the POD so would the US. Maybe Garner takes over if FDR dies in 1939 and stays in till 1948, and then it's too late before the Germans attack?
 
From: "F. Michael Zimmerman" <fmz1@c...>
Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 10:23 am
Subject: Re: WW3 in In The Presence of Mine Enemies-Possible Spoilers

> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 01:57:46 -0000
> From: "Michael Edward Johnson" <EDDIEJOHN74@H...>
> Subject: Re: WW3 in In The Presence of Mine Enemies-Possible
> Spoilers
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> POSSIBLE SPOILER MATERIAL
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> ----There, the
> collapse of the European colonial powers and the re-taking of the
> German colonies would force the Germans into cooperation with
> fellow Aryans in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) and South Africa---
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> The book mentions a South African fascist state allied with the
> GGR .It probably took apartheid to the next level in certain cases.

The next level would probably be enslavement in Soviet-style death
camps.

The big trouble the Nazis had with the Final Solution was that they
could not find a cost-effective way to exterminate that many people.
They tried carbon monoxide and simple shooting, but both taxed their
resources of ammunition and fuel. That was how they started using
Zyklon B.

But in Africa, even Zyklon B would make extermination of the native
population a cost-prohibitive enterprise. More practical would be
enslavement and working them to death faster than they can breed.
That would have to be a long-term project, and would probably still
be going on in 2009. The result would be that the Aryan state there
(Unified Africa?) would have access to all the riches of that
continent. That would give it everything it needed to become a rival
to the GGR.

It could well be that the Nazis were harder on the USA than they had
to be, simply to make an example of the Americans to their African
satrapy. But in the Americas the same principle would hold. The
Nazis would need a puppet state in America capable of depopulating
the real estate south of the Rio Grande. And the only suitable
populace would be the ethnically cleansed USA and Canada. But here
the situation would be even more acute. The Africans had never been
a sovereign nation although they may have aspired to it. But the
Americans had once had that status and many would wish to reassert
their independence. Remember that even the most racist American may
still consider himself American first.

The collection of tribute would then make sense as a way of
preventing these two Nazi satrapies from acquiring the resources to
become rival Aryan superpowers. And like you, I wish that Dr. T had
pursued this angle!
 
Michael E Johnson said:
The Japanese nuclear program had good theoretical understanding of nuclear weapons and isotope separation. Without a war with the US they would have gone nuclear earlier than in OTL. If the Germans concentrated on a war with the US and ignored Japan till later, the Japanese would have had a deterrent nuclear force and a dispersed industrial base all over Asia. Actually, depending on the POD so would the US. Maybe Garner takes over if FDR dies in 1939 and stays in till 1948, and then it's too late before the Germans attack?

I thought that the Japanese were using the same method of refining uranium that the Germans were using, which was fairly difficult and inefficient compared to the American method.
 
--I thought that the Japanese were using the same method of refining uranium that the Germans were using, which was fairly difficult and inefficient compared to the American method.---


Wkwillis posted this actually but that was what I thought as well,based on my limited knowledge about that subject.
 
Isotope separation costs.

Liquid Thermal Diffusion is very simple in theory, very cheap to fabricate, very slow to work, and very electricity inefficient. The decision as to the separation method you use to produce U235 is made according to what your limiting factor is. If you have surplus hydroelectric power and two years, it can't be beat for cost. If you have lots of manufacturing capability, you go with gas diffusion, if you have some time for reseach, you build subcritical centrifuges, if you have lots of time for research and development, you build semiconductor chip controlled supercritical centrifuges. If you have some method of tunable monochromatic wavelength emission, you do photochemical separation, though I don't know if anyone has.
I know a lot about this subject.
You can also build several types of reactors for plutonium production. If you have cheap hydroelectric power, you use byproduct heavy water from ammonia synthesis plants for a heavy water reactor. If you have byproduct helium from natural gas production, you build helium cooled graphite reactors. If you have some time for research and development, you build CO2 cooled reactors. If you have byproduct C3O2 from hydrolysis of wood plants, you build a carbon suboxide reactor, though I don't know if anyone has.
 
The Japanese nuclear program had good theoretical understanding of nuclear weapons and isotope separation. Without a war with the US they would have gone nuclear earlier than in OTL. If the Germans concentrated on a war with the US and ignored Japan till later, the Japanese would have had a deterrent nuclear force and a dispersed industrial base all over Asia. Actually, depending on the POD so would the US. Maybe Garner takes over if FDR dies in 1939 and stays in till 1948, and then it's too late before the Germans attack?

Gone nuclear earlier than in OTL? In real life, neither Japan nor Germany possess nuclear weapons. Japan, being the only country ever nuked in anger, is fiercely opposed to nukes. Germany just doesn`t have them, although I`m not quite sure why. Probably has something to do with German military retrictions after WWII.
 
Japanese nuclear status

tetsu-katana said:
Gone nuclear earlier than in OTL? In real life, neither Japan nor Germany possess nuclear weapons. Japan, being the only country ever nuked in anger, is fiercely opposed to nukes. Germany just doesn`t have them, although I`m not quite sure why. Probably has something to do with German military retrictions after WWII.

Japan has acknowledged have more than a ton of plutonium. If you have a ton of plutonium nobody bothers you because it takes about an hour to assemble a nuclear bomb from completely innocent pieces. It would take several months to design a nuclear bomb. Japan already has operated a fast
neutron reactor and I sincerely hope has a very good understanding of fast neutron physics.
One ton of plutonium is enough to make 100 bombs. They weigh about 10Kg for the plutonium and 100 Kg for the rest of the fission device. I don't know if they have fusion devices. They are somewhat more sophisticated. A decent (20 Megaton) bomb weighs more than a ton and is the size of an external fuel tank. The delivery systems are jet fighter-bombers, of which Japan is already well supplied.
Japan only spends 1% of it's GDP on the military. But that 1% is almost as much as the EEC (France, Germany, Britain, Italy, and everybody else, roughly), and it didn't need to invest in a large ground force to defend against the Warsaw Pact. I would be very carefull not to get into a fight with Japan. Only the EEC, America, Russia, and China make me more nervous than Japan. Even India has some limits on what it can do. Japan doesn't.
Oh yeah, that's it's official spending. Since the LDP has been in power for more than half a century, I wouldn't make any predictions on what else it has. Specifically I have no reason to believe that Japan hasn't invested the hundred million it takes to build a UF6 centrifuge. With one of those in a quiet industrial building somewhere, there are no limits on it's ability to suddenly reveal several thousand nuclear weapons.
But we know about the plutonium. The rest we only find out about if someone threatens Japan.
Oh yeah. Germany has part ownership of the largest UF6 enrichment facility in the world. Don't count them out, either.
 
I never said that don`t have the capabilites to make them; I just said that they do not have them. If memory serves me correctly, only seven do.
 
Eight, I think:

USA
UK
France
China
Russia
India
Pakistan
Israel

Then, of course, are the 'possibles' of North Korea, Kazakhstan, etc.
 
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